On this episode, Joseph Grech speaks to Marwa Farouq, a PCC Leadership Coach and Strategic Advisor from Red Kite Coaching & Consulting. We discuss equity and equality and how these concepts can be integrated into coaching practices.

Marwa highlights the importance of self-awareness for both coaches and clients and the need for humility and curiosity when centering equity in coaching sessions. Together we explore the barriers to equity, particularly fear, and the significance of addressing fear and embracing vulnerability. The conversation emphasizes the importance of continuously learning and evolving one's coaching practice.

The discussion emphasizes that centering equity is an ongoing journey that requires self-awareness, curiosity, and a commitment to creating a safe and inclusive coaching environment.

So, hi everyone, and a very warm welcome to our latest

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episode of Coaching in Focus.

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I am your host, Joseph Grech,

and I am joined by Marwa Farooq.

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Marwa, how are you doing today?

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Marwa: Good.

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Hi everyone.

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Joseph: Good, good, good.

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I'm excited to be speaking

to you today as well.

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And before we start our conversation,

I just want to give a little bit of

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background to our listeners, to our

viewers, in relation to your experience.

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So you are a leadership coach,

you're a strategic advisor as

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well, with Red Kite Coaching.

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and consulting.

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And you have worked for many years,

over 20 years, in relation to

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driving significant and lasting

cultural transformations in

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organizations, particularly showing

your commitment to equity, diversity,

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and inclusion initiatives as well.

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And our focus on the episode

today is around equity.

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and how we can center equity in

our coaching practice as well.

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So shall we start from that aspect

around what equity actually is?

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I feel sometimes there's still a bit

of confusion on equity, equality.

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So shall we start from that point of view?

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What do you think?

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Marwa: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think it's a really good starting

point and I have a really fun metaphor.

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that really helps people I work

with to, it's not my metaphor, but

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it's one that I use all the time

since the day I heard that from a

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colleague, um, in my past organization.

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So if you think of the metaphor

of a party, equality is

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inviting everyone to the party.

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Diversity is making sure that those

that are invited into the party are

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representatives of the community

that you're inviting people from.

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So that's equality, diversity.

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If you think of inclusion, that's

inviting those that you've invited

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into the party to participate

in planning the party with you.

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So choosing food, music, the

layout of the party, that is sort

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of including people in doing it.

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And then finally, I would say

belonging is that everyone feels

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comfortable taking part of this party.

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So even if people have come.

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They're actually comfortable going to the

dance floor or not dancing and sitting

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and chatting and that kind of thing.

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Equity is when everyone has the

ability to access that party.

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So regardless of everyone, where everyone

lives, they have proper transportation

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or means to be able to join the party.

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So, cause you, many times you can invite

people, but they're not able to access.

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That's your part.

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Joseph: Such a lovely metaphor as well.

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I know.

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I love it.

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I always picture as well, some of our

viewers might have seen that picture

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of the tree with the apples and the

different, uh, so equalities having

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the same leather and equity, a slightly

kind of longer leather as well to reach

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Marwa: the fruit.

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So it's sort of that different,

that subtle difference.

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I think where the confusion

is, is what's the difference

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between equality and equity?

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And I think both are needed and both are

important, but equality is more about

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fairness, making it available to everyone.

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Equity is more the access for the

resources, support, opportunities,

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is not dependent on things that are

outside your hands, and these things

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are like your identity, for example.

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Joseph: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And the privileges that some individuals

might have had just as part of the

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societal ways how we live as well.

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Right.

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Right.

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So in terms of centering equity

then in coaching sessions or in our

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coaching practice, what does that

actually really mean in everyday

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Marwa: terms?

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I've been exploring this for some

time now and I think it means

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different things depending on which

angle you're coming to it from.

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So it could mean one aspect, it means

that you as a coach, You're committed

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to a journey of learning more and being

more aware of the different context

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and worldviews that exist out there, or

those of your client, especially if I

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work a lot with organizations and so on.

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So I'm really keen on

understanding what you're saying.

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Who are the members of these organizations

that I work with and what kind of

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inequity exists within their context?

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So that could be one thing, your own

learning orientation and as a coach,

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it could be also something about sort

of how you make agreements with your,

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those that you coach with your clients.

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I was facilitating a session recently with

the ICF actually about that same topic.

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And someone had said, one of the

participants had said, Oh, to me,

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that means that when I'm doing my

coaching agreement, I'm going to

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call out or give permission to my

client to actually call me out when

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I'm being irrelevant or undermining

a specific context that is important.

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To them, and she wanted to write

it as part of the agreement.

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So that's one way of doing it.

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It's just looking at the coaching

agreement and how are you building this

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coaching agreement to create space,

safety and space for the client to bring

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their own context that are many of the

times not necessarily named explicitly.

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Joseph: It's such an

important point, isn't it?

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This idea around how do we kind of

flex our agreements so that they're

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serving the client more fully rather

than just being a contractual agreement.

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It's about the client's ability

to engage in that space with

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Marwa: us.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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And I think just sort of to build

on your thread here, another

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way of where we center equity.

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And I think that's sort of what

we already do is like really being

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centered in the client point of view,

and being focused on where the client

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coming from, what's their experience

of whatever they're going through in

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the moment and being centered on in, I

would extend that on in their worldview.

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Thank you.

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Really trying being curious and trying

to understand what's their view of

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that matter and why that view exists.

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And I think last but not least, I

would say evoke awareness, which

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is another key thing around being a

coach is just sort of spending time.

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If you come into these coaching

conversations aware of what equity is

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and what contributes to inequity, for

example, you simply can be curious

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and ask And invite more awareness into

what are some of the things that may

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be contributing to that experience or

this situation that might be outside

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the client's hands, for example.

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Or if you're coaching an executive, for

example, how is their power and privilege

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sort of painting their worldview or their

understanding of a specific situation?

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Yeah,

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Joseph: what's resonating with me is

this importance of the context that the

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individual is coming to the coaching

sessions in, and his idea around power,

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privilege, kind of imbalances in that.

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and that dynamic are really

important for us coaches to consider.

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So would you say that if I am centering

equity in my coaching practice, would you

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say it kind of starts with self awareness?

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Like how, how do I know if I'm centering

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Marwa: equity?

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Yes, I definitely would

start with self awareness.

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I think one of the things all

of us as coaches are committed

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to is continuous learning.

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Like it's just such an

integral piece of what I love.

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Why I love being a coach, it's just that

I'm continuously in a journey of, um,

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learning about myself and about others.

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And I think in taking that to center

equity, you need to be, to learn, you

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need to learn about yourself, your

identity, your own socialization,

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which creates your worldview, your

bias, your own biases, for example, and

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how these are different from others.

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So there's just.

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Just sort of being more aware

is the first step for sure.

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And then I would say the second step is

sort of learning, learning about the other

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and how that's different from others.

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But definitely that

would be my first step.

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Joseph: There's acceptance of that

biases do exist because we're human

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beings, because I think none of us

want to say that we have biases,

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but we do because of socialization.

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It's part of us growing up as humans.

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Marwa: Absolutely.

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I think we all, it's just a human nature.

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Um, again, with an example or metaphor

that a colleague of mine that I respect

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very much was, I see as an expert in DEI.

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She would always give that example.

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If you see a snake, you're

going to run away regardless of

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this is a venomous one or not.

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And it speaks a lot about just the bias.

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We are conditioned.

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Most of us are conditioned that.

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Snakes are scary.

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So you will run when you see one.

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And I think that's just the, and the

same goes for dolphins, for example,

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most probably if you see a dolphin,

you'll smile and you're like, Oh, cute.

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Joseph: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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So being, being open, you use the word

curious earlier as well as I really liked,

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I think, which resonated with me as well.

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So, so what are some of the myths?

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What do you think about

inclusion, um, coaching?

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Marwa: I think the biggest one around

diversity, equity and inclusion

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in coaching or really in anything

that you need to be an expert to be

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able to be inclusive, um, an expert

or you need sort of experience

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or something like about depth of

expertise, years and years of learning.

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And, and I don't want to undermine that

I, as I said, I think it's very important

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that Us as coaching, and I think actually

as human beings, that we're continuously

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learning about ourselves and others in

the world about equity and in, and what's,

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what creates inequity in the world.

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I do think this is important,

but I don't think it's a barrier

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to being inclusive, to trying.

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So two important things, I think.

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One is true commitment to learning.

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So if you're truly committed to learning,

you don't have to be an expert to

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try to start experimenting, to bring

inclusion into your, coaching practice.

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But the other thing that I think

is very important is committing

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to also being vulnerable and being

able to say, to own it when you

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create harm, even if unintentional.

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I think these two things are key to

sort of, uh, offset the myth of that

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you need to be an expert in DEI, in

diversity, equity, inclusion, to be

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more inclusive or equitable as a coach.

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Joseph: Mm.

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Mm.

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This idea around even a small

step can really be a big step.

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Marwa: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I, I'm a strong believer that, uh,

in experimentation and that one small

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step will lead to another small step.

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And after 10 steps, you've

actually taken a leap.

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And that is how change happens

in many of, in, in many ways.

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Yeah.

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For human beings.

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Joseph: Yeah.

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Because there's different

levels to this, right?

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For example, you mentioned power earlier.

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I think at a level is noticing that

power and noticing, um, the levels

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of power in the coaching session.

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But then as we deepen our learning,

we can also try and focus on,

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well, how do we minimize that power

and get more of a partnership?

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And again, if we deepen our then coaching

practice and our learning, it's about,

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well, how do we use this dynamic of

power that we're accepting in this

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coaching relationship that is happening?

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How do we use it so that we support the

client and in terms of minimizing the

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power and exploring the power dynamic?

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Absolutely.

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I can really see this idea

around the different levels.

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That we can work with.

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Marwa: And I think it's almost,

you've actually mapped out a little

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bit of what we've been talking about.

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This idea that it starts by awareness,

being sort of being aware and

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curious about the power dynamic.

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That's just sort of

starting with awareness.

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And then this idea of experimenting with

a few things and what that means, the

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things that you've learned, what do they

mean to you and to the client and so on.

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And that's again, experimentation.

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And then evoking awareness

to our client is another.

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Thing, which is sort of this

idea of, okay, now that we know

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this, how do you bring that prep

to be present for your client?

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How do you help your client have

that same awareness and act upon it?

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Of course, you

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Joseph: can really see that.

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It's so nice that you reflected

back the process that, um, that

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it's like an applied version

of what we were talking about.

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As you were telling me, I was

reflecting on this idea around

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that there are these small steps.

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However, there are also some challenges

like in a way there are things that

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get in the way What do you find are

some of the main barriers that you've

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seen perhaps that can get in the

way in terms of centering equity?

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Marwa: There is a few but there's one that

I always like to talk about first Which

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is fear because of what's happening in

the world around us and all of the tension

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uh, political, social tension around

diversity, equity, inclusion, especially

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also in the last, I would say 10 years

or so, there's a lot of fear about one,

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opening the subject, but also saying the

wrong thing or asking the wrong thing.

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And I think that is one of the biggest

detriments to having more equity in the

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world or more inclusiveness in the world,

when people are so scared that they just.

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stand back and not engage.

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This is the biggest barrier

in my perspective, especially

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when it comes to coaches.

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Can

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Joseph: I share something there actually?

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Yeah.

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It's interesting because I'm reflecting

back on when I'm training our coaches

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on the ICF programs and when it comes

to some of the ethics equality sessions,

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I do notice I'm a lot more careful.

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There is a bit of fear

that I notice in me.

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I'm a bit more, and I don't think

it's necessarily a bad thing.

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It shows consideration as well, but I

can see that I think for some people it

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might then stop those conversations from

happening because we want to get it right.

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And then that might stop us

from actually engaging in the

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conversation in the first place.

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I can feel it, as you were telling

me, I, I noticed it in myself as

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Marwa: well.

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Absolutely.

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We all have it in a way.

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And as you say, I love that you said,

it's because I want to be considerate.

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It's all of us.

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We all don't want to be, want to be

contributing to the other person where

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we innately, I think as human beings

are, we want to be supportive of others.

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We don't want to

intentionally harm others.

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And that fear of doing that, uh,

sort of has us shying away from

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engaging in such a conversation.

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And it's a vulnerable space, diversity,

equity, inclusion, just that conversation

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is a very vulnerable conversation.

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And we know it's a sensitive one.

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Um, so I think fear...

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is a natural part of that dynamic.

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And I would encourage, I think, part, a

lot of what I want to do now with this

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idea of coaching with, um, centering

equity in coaching is to encourage more

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coaches to experiment with small things,

to be courageous, to sort of almost what

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you said, like perfect is, um, you said

that we want, we want to get it right.

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And I think.

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Perfect is the, there's this

quote, I think, perfect is

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the enemy's good or something.

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Yeah, something like that.

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Good is good enough as long as, and

I want to caveat that because it's

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important, as long as that you're

willing to own it if you created harm.

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So if you're talking to your client

and you've said something, that sort of

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impacted them or asked them a question

that they felt sensitive about, making

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sure that you're able in your own language

to name and acknowledge that harm and just

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say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

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Or when you're asking the question,

say, I might be wrong, but I

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wanted to put the question down

and feel free to not answer it.

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Sort of some of these things that would

help the conversation be stay going,

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isn't zero, isn't no engagement at all.

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Joseph: It shows genuineness in

us as, as coaches as well, that

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we're being, we must do it human.

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We're being human, we're

being genuine with our client.

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Um, we're not these

perfect expert coaches.

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Marwa: And it's there.

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It's just like, as you

say, we're being human.

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It's just there.

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In my experience, what has been

happening is when I bring it into

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my coaching, it's almost like an

aha moment in itself of like, yeah.

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That has been contributing, you

know, like this actually happened to

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me a few times where people weren't

expecting that the coach is going

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to bring a question about that.

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And then when it comes, it's

like, yes, I want to explore that.

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There's almost more curiosity

and more engagement.

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Joseph: It feels like it was in the

room and we both noticed it and actually

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we're shining a light on it now and say,

well, what, what shall we do with this?

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And being honest with each other.

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So would you say, what I'm hearing

is being, you know, developing our

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self awareness, having transparency

with our clients, they're kind of

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key mindsets that really help us.

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Are there any other mindset

that you think enable equity

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inclusion in our coaching practice?

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Marwa: Yeah.

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So I think, um, a couple of that stand

out on top of the ones that you mentioned.

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One is humidity.

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And I talked again about this idea of

like, being humble enough to say, Oh,

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I approached this in the wrong way, for

example, or so there's something around

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humidity in owning your impact, whatever

it is, as a coach, but also humidity To

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know when your worldview is not the only

way world of this idea of like knowing

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that your truth is not your only true is

not the only truth and there's humility

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with that because like our worldview

comes with a lot of lived experience and

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a lot of different work that we've done.

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So it's hard sometimes to come into a

coaching conversation and like sort of

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hear something that you have very clear

judgment on and just pause and ask with

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humility without, there's this concept of

humble inquiry, which I love very much.

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And it's this idea that you're

asking question, not in a way that

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is leading to somewhere, but you're

truly curious about the client's.

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lived experience, or the

client's experience, or view

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of what they're going through.

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So, humility is number one, and number

two, which is very close to it, is being

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centered in the view of the client.

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So, humility and being centered in the

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Joseph: view of the client.

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I'm trying to unpack that a little

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Marwa: bit.

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So, the humility I've talked about,

the view of the client, I think a lot

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of the times, especially if the Client

and the coach come from different

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backgrounds were unable to connect with

them because we're really holding on

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to our view of the world and I think

part of one of the things actually that

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is that I've learned with as part as.

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Part of the getting certified

with the ICF is this idea of

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being centered at the client view.

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I'm not trying to push my

perspective on my client.

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I'm actually being grounded in being

curious about how the client is seeing

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the situation, what they view as the

barrier, what they view at the solution

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and what they view is within their

control or outside their control.

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And sort of with that help to evoke

awareness and move them into sort of

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action or impact from where they are.

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Joseph: Yeah, this idea of my opinion

is not that important, or actually

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it's not important at all, to a degree.

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Yeah.

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Um, sometimes when clients ask, you

know, what do you think of this?

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That's the first thing that genuinely

comes to mind, I think, well...

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To a large degree, my opinion

of what I think about, it's not

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important what you think about it.

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Yeah.

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Is by far more important

than what I think about this?

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Marwa: Yeah.

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I like to, when, when a client

asks me about my opinion, I ask,

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I, I actually like to ask them,

how would my opinion be helpful?

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Like, what is it?

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'cause um, uh, sometimes it's power.

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They think that somehow, because

you're the coach, you should know.

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what to do.

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Um, and if it is, I sort of

try to, I like evoke awareness.

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I like this word very much, like

try to evoke awareness about the

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sort of how that might not be true.

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But sometimes it's actually, which

is a broader topic for another time,

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but it's neurodiversity at play.

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Some people, their ways of thinking,

they like to bounce off ideas and

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it helps them sort of progress.

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and process the

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Joseph: discussion.

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I notice that in my own thinking patterns,

I'm quite extroverted in my thinking.

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I wouldn't say I'm an extroverted

person, but in my thinking, even if I'm

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by myself, I'll be talking out loud.

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Because I think the sound of saying it

and the sound of being in conversation

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with somebody about it really helps

to formulate my thinking or writing

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it down, a form of expressing it.

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Can really help me.

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Marwa: Yeah.

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Yeah, like me.

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I'm a verbal processor too.

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So I like to talk through Things

and it just really helps me process

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my thinking and a lot of the times

people that we coach you'll see I

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use tools with different people.

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But like, if I'm coaching a team

specifically, and there are different

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people in the room, and you could almost

see how some are getting stuck with

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a reflection, and some are just like,

the thoughts are just right there.

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So I would usually just like,

open a Google Doc, and I'd say,

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Okay, let's take five minutes, and

everyone write down their thoughts.

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And what that creates is some

Silence to help people that process

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in different ways to actually

gather the thoughts and talk Which

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Joseph: really brings us back to

equity because that to me is an

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example of equity you provide you're

noticing that self awareness You're

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noticing what's happening and then you

provide them the tools to help people

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Engage in the activity and support

themselves Ah, you mentioned tools.

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Are there, and some tools that you

use, are there any tools that come

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to mind that you feel enable equity

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Marwa: and inclusion?

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Yes, there are tools that I like

personally to use, but I think in general,

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because coaching as a profession is a lot

about curiosity and sort of reflection and

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so on, so I would say most of the coaching

tools bring in some kind of equity.

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But there are three tools

that I like to use a lot.

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One is the sphere of influence as a

tool, this idea of that what's within

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my control, what's outside my control,

and how and sort of help people think

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through that the constellation exercises.

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So this I having a prompt question

and letting them put their dot

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somewhere within the circle.

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And then the identity wheel, I would

say, identity wheel exercise is

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quite a popular exercise, but it just

has all types of different things

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that contribute to your identity.

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And I like to stress always that

identity is not a static thing.

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So how you, how would you define

your own identity in the moment?

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Because identity could evolve and

change and so on, and then help

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them see how that could impact.

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The situation that they're bringing and,

and, or, and sometimes if I'm coaching

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executive, how their identity is different

from others and how's that impacting them

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and their work and their perspective.

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And, and, and I find that these

three specifically come in handy

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a lot of the times when I'm

trying to bring that perspective.

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Joseph: And for any of our

listeners, um, there's, there's a

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lot of information about this that

they can search online as well.

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We can add a couple of links.

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Yeah.

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Um, some examples here as well.

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Did you know that at Become we offer

a number of different coach training

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programs to people just like you?

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If you're new to coaching, there is a

level one diploma in integrative coaching.

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If you've been coaching for a while or

perhaps you're already an ACC coach,

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Then we have the Advanced Diploma in

Integrative Coaching, which leads all

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the way to the PCC credential by the ICF.

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We also have a number of CPD

programs and certificates,

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including Mentoring and Supervision.

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To find out more, go to tobecome.

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org or just check the show notes.

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We're getting quite close to our

time that we've got together, and I

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was just wondering if there's any...

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of our listeners who are thinking

about equity in their own practice.

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Where do they start?

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Start considering this a

little bit more actively.

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What do you think?

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Marwa: I would say, I

would recommend two things.

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One is start by sort of learning

a little bit about some of the

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things that contribute to inequity.

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in the context of their work.

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So I work a lot of in organizations,

for example, and I spend a lot of

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time learning about what contributes

to inequity in organizations.

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So if you're working with families,

for example, this is something that

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you want to look at what kind of

inequities exist within families.

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I think that kind of awareness will

help them bring in some of that or

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evoke awareness about some of that.

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And then start small.

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Think about if you're doing

Reflections or exercises and so on.

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Think about different ways different

people can do these same exercises,

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similar to my Google Doc example.

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So these are just two small steps.

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Joseph: Yeah.

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Don't be afraid to start small.

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And also thinking about something

that we talked about earlier.

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We talked about agreements.

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Can I go back to your agreements?

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How are you making these agreements?

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Can you put some flexibility

in terms of these agreements to

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make them more inclusive as well?

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Marwa: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um, one of the things that had come up,

uh, something that just came to my mind.

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One of the things that came up in

the session that I told you about,

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the Centering Equity session, someone

had asked the question around what

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if my identity is coming in the

way, my own identity is coming in

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the way of the people talking about

their own identity or vice versa.

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If people are coming to me because

they relate to me in a certain way.

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And I think actually, Both of

these are, uh, are good things.

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They're not bad thing.

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They're opportunities to explore.

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So if people are coming to you

because of your identity, because

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they relate to you, that's great.

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That gives you even more, a bigger

opportunity to bring in that equity

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conversation into the coaching.

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If they're not, I think that's

an opportunity to say, I'm aware

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of how my identity is different.

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And I just want to invite you to

bring in what you, or whatever,

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or in the agreement as we say, but

I think it's just an opportunity.

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To actually invite, name the elephant in

the room or invite to that conversation.

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Joseph: Yeah, being curious

about it is going back to

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that is the first step really.

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That can lead to self awareness.

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Marwa: Yeah, yeah.

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And

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Joseph: naming it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Thank you Marwa for this

conversation as well.

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I'm sure that a lot of our viewers,

uh, will find this useful because

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it's such an important topic for us

coaches to consider in our practice.

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And I do think at times we get

trained in a particular way.

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And in terms of Really, being to digest

some of these concepts, it takes time.

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Yes.

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We need to practice, we need to

develop that self awareness, notice

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what's happening in ourselves, in

our clients, and work with that.

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It's not just a quick training

program, it's a constant curiosity.

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It's a journey.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's a journey.

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It's a journey.

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Well, thank

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Marwa: you, Laura, once again.

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Thank you so much for inviting me.

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I've enjoyed this conversation, as usual.

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Joseph: Same here.

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Same here.

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Same here.

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Take care of yourself.

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Thank you.

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Bye,

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Marwa: Joss.

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Bye

518

bye.