CTO Wisdom with Liming Zhao | Beyond The Program

Welcome to CTO Wisdom, where we explore the journeys of technical leaders who have transitioned into executive roles. Today, guest host Eric Brooke sits down with Liming Zhao, a technology innovator transforming traditional industries.

In this episode, they cover:

• Liming’s journey from researcher to CTO, and the challenges along the way.
• The importance of staying current with emerging technologies.
• The need to delegate effectively to avoid bottlenecks and empower your team.
• How decision-making evolves as you rise to senior leadership, often with limited information.
• Embracing failure as a learning opportunity.
• The role of networking for mentorship and peer support.

About today’s guest: Liming Zhao, former CTO of Nomad Health and Compass, is a technology innovator transforming traditional industries. At Compass, he led the technology team and developed a comprehensive productivity suite for real estate agents, while at Nomad Health, he and his team created an AI-powered digital labor marketplace for healthcare professionals. With a Ph.D. in computer science and experience in supercomputing at D.E. Shaw Research, Liming applies his expertise to solve complex business challenges. He envisions a future where technological advancements optimize societal productivity, enabling humans to focus on their unique strengths while technology handles routine tasks efficiently.

About today’s host: Eric Brooke has a rich and varied leadership career - leading up to 21,000 people and Billions in revenue, throughout 14 countries. In their career, they have been an Executive six times (e.g. President, CEO, CMO, and CTO) and a Board member of multiple organisations. Eric has been a CTO of scaling startups from 0 to 120 engineers. As an adviser and mentor, they have helped multiple other startups scale both in Canada and the US. As well as supporting multiple startup incubators such as 1871 in Chicago and TechStars.

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Eric Brooke: Welcome to CTO Wisdom.

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My name is Eric Brooke.

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This series will talk to leaders

of technology at organizations.

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We'll understand their career, what

was successful and what was not and

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what they learned along the way.

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We'll also look at what the

tech market is doing today.

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We'll understand where they gather

their intelligence so they can grow

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and scale with their organizations.

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Hello, my name is Eric Brooke

and welcome to CTO Wisdom.

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Today, we have Liming.

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Liming, give us your

elevator pitch, please.

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Liming Zhao: Thanks, Eric.

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Hello, this is Liming Zhao, a

technology enthusiast who is motivated

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by transforming legacy industries

through technology innovations.

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I just wrapped up my CTO role at

Nomad Health, a digital health

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care staffing marketplace, and

previously I was the CTO at Compass,

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a real estate technology company.

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I really like BUILD, just like most of the

engineers, and I also think that, uh, to

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be able to lead an organization and have a

lot of people like minded working together

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and BUILD more, it's super exciting.

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Eric Brooke: It is indeed.

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So, tell us about your

first, I guess, encounter.

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When did you get excited about

technology, engineering, science?

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When was that?

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Liming Zhao: Yes, I learned

programming when I was 10.

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I wish I could say that was 10 years ago.

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But gosh, that feeling of,

wow, this actually works.

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And the magical feeling that

imagination is the only limit.

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It's what got me into technology and

still kept me motivated to the to today.

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Eric Brooke: Cool.

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Can you remember when that was?

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What was the thing that you built first?

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Or what was the game that you played

first that kind of really excited you?

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Liming Zhao: Yes.

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So out of those programming trainings,

of course, you're one of the typical

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game you program is the snake, right?

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And you learn a lot of

basic games and you mimic.

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But I was proud that I later on

programmed the typing test for myself

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because You can tell I'm an immigrant,

so trying to learn how to type fast.

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There was not a program available back

then, so I, uh, built one for myself,

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and gave myself some rewards with

animations and tokens, so that was fun.

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Eric Brooke: Love it.

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Okay, so talk about when did

you start, tell us your career,

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like when did you get started,

involved in science and technology?

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Liming Zhao: Yes, um, after my graduate

study, my actual first technology

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working experience Was that a company

that my graduate school professor

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owned, where we turned some of our

research work on motion tracking using

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general sensors accelerometers into a

software that performs virtual training

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simulations using full body control.

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I know everyone is familiar

with the concept, but back then

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it was pretty groundbreaking.

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I think that experience of really

this thing actually works, you

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can see the movements of our arm

and the virtual avatar is actually

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moving while probably planted a,

uh, seed or bug of startup in me.

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So when I started my first real job

at the D Shore Research, where the

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famous, uh, hedge fund manager David

Shaw, assembled a group of world class

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research scientists and build words,

fastest, specialized supercomputer and

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town have to qualify all these words.

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And conduct protein folding simulations.

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I was very much impressed by the idea and

the people and the outcome we produced.

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I often joke that I probably

plan my career backward, right?

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Working alongside world class

researchers in a private research

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lab should be my retirement job.

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But it's really the usual research

experience that taught me how

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transformational it could be when

a group of committed talents.

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Are all motivated, motivated

by big audacious goals.

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So then I joined Compass back

then called Urban Compass, um,

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right after their seed round.

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Like most of the startups, your

first business idea did not work.

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So post our series A round, we pivoted

from the New York City rental markets

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into national residential sales and build

the end to end technology platform to

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power the real estate agents of their

workflows and processes and clients.

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Transcribed And like many of the pivots.

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It came with turbulence, right?

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And I was volunteered slash

promoted to head of engineering.

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And later on became the CTO right

around that moment, the urgent pivot

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required us to, um, both stabilize a

changing technology team, as well as

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immediately grow the team, develop

new features, expand the businesses.

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I mean, talking about big

audacious goals, right?

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Right around there.

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You're basically asked to do, take on a

new job and really enter uncharted lands.

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But even though Compass was my first

startup and executive experience, I really

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appreciate the fact that we managed to

grow rapidly, and I hope we can say it's

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a successful business given the IPO.

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Uh, and more importantly, all

the talent people we were able

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to recruit during that time.

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I learned a lot.

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I learned a lot from my managers,

my peers, the people reported to

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me, and also many of the real estate

agents we supported, um, many of

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them I consider as entrepreneurs.

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So, the lesson learned at Compass of the

importance of bringing together the right

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talent led me to, later on, co founded

Frontier Sigma, which is an assessment

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SaaS company in the human capital space.

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Now, becoming a co founder,

also CTO, I started to look at

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our business, uh, differently

beyond just the technology angle.

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I partnered with our CEO of

sales operations, which taught me

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valuable lessons on how to establish

a business value perspective

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from our customers, right?

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Technology ultimately remains our

differentiation, but first and foremost,

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we need to articulate the urgent

business problem that our customers face.

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are looking for, are willing

to pay for, most importantly.

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So fast forward to Nomad Health, I

joined after they raised the Series

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C round to address an urgent and

critical clinical labor shortage problem

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right before the pandemic broke out.

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At Nomad Health, um, I was

responsible for everything technology.

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I would say by then I had a

little bit more experience.

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And a few more tools, uh, around my belt.

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So, step by step, we build out a

full fledged technology organization

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that spans product, engineering,

BI, data science, IT, and security.

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Um, we re platform our core product,

standardize our data, execute our

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machine learning AI strategies, implement

automation, both in our own product, also

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for our internal systems and processes.

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Which really enabled Nomad to

grasp and handle the huge volume

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increases in the healthcare staffing

business created by the pandemic.

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As a result, we were ranked 66th fastest

growing company in North America on the

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2023 Deloitte technology fast 500 list.

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So maybe to sum it up, I think I got

into my management career a little bit

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by coincidence, but I think It has to do

some, it had to do something with my, um,

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solid software development skills, right?

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Training, all these things.

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It's actually.

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You know, I was prepared for this

expansion of my responsibility.

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Um, also, I noticed that, um, you

know, the successful executive

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leaders I have witnessed observed

are both deep experts in their own

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domain, as well as very knowledgeable

about many other adjacent areas.

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So that's something I

aspire towards, right?

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They seem to strike a very good

balance of both the depth of the

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knowledge and width of knowledge.

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Therefore, as I progress throughout my

career, I want to make sure that I'm

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always solid with the technology, learning

the new trend, experiment and build it,

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ship some product around it, even if

eventually it doesn't work, but at least

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train myself on these new technology.

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At the same time, Um, anywhere

I can, I can expand my purview.

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Ideally, eventually leads to the expansion

of ownership, uh, on border topics.

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Eric Brooke: So thank you for that.

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So you've given us a summary.

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So I'm going to dig into different

parts of that, that journey.

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Um, what did you graduate with?

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Liming Zhao: I graduated with a PhD

degree in computer science from UPenn.

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Eric Brooke: And so when you, can

I ask what you did your PhD in?

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Yes,

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Liming Zhao: my PhD is

quite, I like the topic.

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Um, my PhD is in motion synthesis

from motion capture data.

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Eric Brooke: Awesome.

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So, um, you're an expert in your

field in motion capture, and

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obviously you talked about that's

one of the places that you went to.

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How is that?

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Like when you look back on essentially

more of a science approach to then

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the practical engineering and making

a business, what are the things that,

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in science, set you up for success?

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What are the things that you think of

that you left your PhD that kind of said,

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cool, these are good things that I'm,

I'm ready for looking back in hindsight?

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Liming Zhao: Yes, I actually didn't

just directly transition out of

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research because my first job at D.

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H.

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O.

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R.

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E.

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research is very research

and scientific oriented.

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So the continuation of PhD

training as well as, you know,

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a good working experience at D.

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H.

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O.

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R.

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E.

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research building the supercomputer.

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I think it really trained my

scientific thinking, reason, and

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a sufficient amount of math and

engineering skills to basically

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say, if something is complicated,

I'm not afraid to break it down.

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If something can be proven, I'm willing

and I'm comfortable to learn and pick

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up tools to get to the bottom of it.

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I think it also translates into later

leadership skills, which is fundamentally,

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you may not be the ultimate expert

in, you know, areas you manage.

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But you, do you possess that intuition

and high level skill to go down one level

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to rationalize and understand why one

option is better than the other, right?

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Instead of making a gut based best bet, I

prefer to make a data informed decision.

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Eric Brooke: Awesome.

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Thank you.

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So in terms of like, you've taken this

PhD, you're doing motion capture in

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the laboratory, you then jumped into

something very different environment.

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What was that like going from more

of a lab environment to, I guess,

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the lab of life and business?

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What were the differences or maybe

things that you didn't get right

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at the beginning that you learned

from that part of your journey?

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Liming Zhao: Yes.

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So a number of learnings, particularly

from academia to industry.

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So kind of like PhD, the

short to startup like Compass,

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Frontier Signal, Nomad Health.

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I think the horizon of change when it

goes to industry significantly shrinks.

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And the ability and the need to make a

decision with less complete information

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is a different requirement in research.

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We want to make the absolutely correct

decision if it takes years, even decades.

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To get to that number in business.

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No, unfortunately, I like the

framework that Jeff Bezos uses, right?

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Essentially, is it one way or

two way decision, a two way door

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decision based on what it is.

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You may not need even 90 percent

of the confidence or information.

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70 percent is sufficient

to make those calls.

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And I think that's a major

difference between running a business

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because at least bias from my own

experience is mostly in startup.

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Um, a lot of proof is in

the making is in iteration.

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So, uh, making mistakes recover and

keep on iterating is actually the

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best way to find the ultimate truth

about this industry and business.

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Eric Brooke: Thank you.

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So, um, at your first company, you,

um, can you remember like aspects of

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your journey whereby, I guess that,

let me ask this question, your first

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role there, may I ask what that was?

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Uh, are you referring

to the eShore research?

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No, the, um, the company,

your first startup, sorry.

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Liming Zhao: Oh, the one we

built the motion tracking thing.

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I was the tech lead.

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Uh, I'm was the person who, uh, wrote

most of the, uh, actual software and

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platform to render the, Uh, virtual

avatar from, uh, uh, controller inputs.

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Eric Brooke: Awesome.

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So you had a lot, you had a

good understanding of ownership.

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Did you have a team at this point?

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Liming Zhao: So we started with

just, uh, uh, my professor and I, and

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later on we recruited a team member.

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And we also, you know, in certain areas,

some of the work, but mostly a small team.

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Eric Brooke: Cool.

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That sounds great.

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And then you come over to like, um, your

next company, if I remember rightly,

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um, yes, um, like your journey and where

you became like the CTO, what were the

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steps that it took for you to get that?

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So the head of engineering, what

were the steps that took you to

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that journey and what helped you

be successful in that journey?

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Didn't help you be successful.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Um,

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Liming Zhao: I think things, uh, you

can tell that, uh, you know, people

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who want to lead, they have a desire

to step up and take on ownership,

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even though title was not given.

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So.

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You know, as much as I have no, you

know, leadership title in my first job, I

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took on a lot of the platform ownership.

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I define all these things because also

out of sheer necessity is actually like.

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If you get to define it, you actually,

you know, get to write it the way

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that you want it, of course, then

take the consequences of whether

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it works or not, I think, over

time, even at the usual research.

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Um, there's a funny thing about it.

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Like, I joined and on day 1, when,

when I get started on board, they told

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me, like, unfortunately, You know, um,

because this, uh, super computer is of

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national security and back then you're

on each one visa from a foreign national.

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Uh, we have to get you clearance of

the security and that took a year.

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And in that 1 year, I wasn't allowed

to even get into the database of

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the super computer embedded systems

and they give me books to read.

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I was like, that's.

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Joke.

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Like, I'm literally afraid, like, next

week they came with me, came to me saying,

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unfortunately, we cannot keep you, right?

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But that's not how D.

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E.

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Shaw, David Shaw treat people.

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Literally says, like,

do whatever you want.

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So I read a book and I realized

that, okay, soon we're going to

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have all these, uh, supercomputers

built, but we still have other

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clusters, commodity clusters using.

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The Intel chips to analyze the data come

out that needs coordination, so eventually

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I work with a couple of, uh, team

members to build a orchestration system

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to run the simulation and analyze the

simulation on these commodity clusters.

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No idea about the embedded super

computer code, at least for

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that 1 year, but some 2 to help.

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So I think that leads to, like.

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Identify problem and 1 to active

step in and solve some problem.

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That leads to leadership, right?

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As I said, it's a coincidence, right?

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Company pivots, team change,

a lot of uncertainties.

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Someone needs to step up and do it.

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I was both asked.

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And also, I think, well, let me try.

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I have not done this before.

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So let's do it.

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Um, speaking of mistakes made, um,

becoming executive or a leader and

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executive, I think there are a couple.

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The first one I would always, um,

advise new leader is that you must

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delegate naturally during that,

you know, turbulent pivot when the

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team was smaller resource was, you

know, short in every place you look.

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I took on developing a data ingestion

product code for the business.

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Remember we're in real estate.

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We want to expand to new markets.

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We want to ingest not only non

MLS data, but also MLS data.

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And there are so many versions of

them, different schemas and everything.

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I took it on myself.

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Quickly realizing that I suddenly become

the bottleneck of releasing production

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ingestion code, which is the key.

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I like ingesting.

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I'm also MLS data code, which is

the key factor of our business

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expansion that cannot sustain it.

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So I quickly gather team.

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Find a teammate transfer the ownership.

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Yes, it did take some time of

training handoff, but ultimately

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it's the right decision.

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Later on, we build a team around this.

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So I usually advise new leaders

as much as you think this is

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important and you potentially kind

of inherently trust yourself better.

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You have to find someone to take

on the criticality of the business.

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You're here to organize

and lead, build a system.

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You have to reduce your direct

involvement of actually being that

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critical element in this whole machine.

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So from then on, every time I identify

critical tasks, I look around with

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the team, identify a capable owner,

assign ownership, align the outcome,

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and then get out of their way.

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Right.

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Right.

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Right.

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Eric Brooke: Definitely important lessons.

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I think we all travel that journey

of suddenly realizing we're in

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the way and we shouldn't be.

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And we have lots of excuses for it,

but I'm glad to hear that part of it.

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So when, um, you pivoted, what was

that like as a leader in that moment of

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like one minute you're doing one thing,

the next minute you're doing something

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completely different, and maybe you don't

have all the skills and capabilities, and

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Tell us about what that pivot was like.

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Liming Zhao: Yes.

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So I would say, fortunately, we

pivoted after we raised the ROM.

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So we do have the capital.

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I have seen, um, and, uh, you

know, know that other cases that

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are not so desirable, then it will

definitely be more challenging.

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But nevertheless, you know,

code base has to be upgraded.

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Suddenly we no longer only focus on

New York city, uh, the whole national

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markets, what kind of amounts to ingest?

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How do we expand?

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And, uh, all these uncertainties arises.

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So it's a collective thinking, right?

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The leadership can get together

and debate and discuss.

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What is the strategy?

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What are the focus areas then come down to

the team naturally during and in pivots.

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There are people who agree.

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There are people who disagree.

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And in this case is, I think.

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A strong culture and HR

processes is important.

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I mean, it's impossible to, you know,

force people to believe in certain things.

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So there are attritions at the same

time, in this case, you've got a

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new idea, you've set a new goal.

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Unfortunately, you're also equipped

with capital, go hire people who

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are going to agree with this new

direction, get those people on board.

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And I think that has remained a

very strong trait of compass during

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the time I was there, which is,

it's always able to sell a future

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and attract talent people to come.

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Yeah.

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and build it together.

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And by the way, in that journey, as new

people come, they help shape, crystallize

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that future and make it real and tangible.

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Eric Brooke: Yeah.

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Um, having people that are

passionate about what you're doing,

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I think it's definitely important.

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Um, 100%.

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Okay.

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So, um, beyond Compass Journey,

tell us a little bit about some

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of the learnings and lessons that

you learned from Nomad Health.

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Liming Zhao: Yes.

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And Nomad Health, I think, like I said,

I think I joined at a moment where they

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already have the, uh, market fit and it's

really aiming for very accurately, like

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a growth and In a way, like timing was

magical, like pandemic give everyone a

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shot, but of course, you know, it's going

to feel the health care staffing industry.

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So the focus would be knowing that

there's going to be an insane amount of

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scale or volume come coming down in this

particular business business sector.

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Where do we invest?

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Of course, there are

debates and discussions.

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Ultimately, I think our leadership

came to a conclusion that we need to

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automate the top of the funnel, the

part, the kind of, you know, reaching

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out, hunting the candidates, doing the

matchmaking, trying to guess if you're

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interested in this, you're qualified as

that technology to take care of that.

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So, as a result, I'm proud to

say among the, you know, almost

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a thousand staffing agencies, 12,

which are public trade companies.

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I can easily name your

dozen that are feedback.

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Nomad Health built a staffing agency first

and probably the only without recruiters

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is not to say we don't have human.

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We don't have operators to,

to work with our clinicians.

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We devote those operators towards the care

giving, which is the agency part, right?

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By the time our clinicians are

committed, vetted, validated by our

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technology to go on to those assignments.

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We'd represent them to the facility,

help them to negotiate an offer.

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When they are on assignment,

we're checking every week

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because we have to pay them.

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And then we'd be able to

facilitate the facility.

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There are literally RW2

employees during that time.

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So in a way, our founder and

CEO usually say, let technology

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do what technology is best at.

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Right.

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And let human do what human is best at.

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Both, you know, high tech and high touch.

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Eric Brooke: And in that journey.

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Tell us how you felt it was

different, like in terms of your

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first exec journey at Compass and

then now you're at Nomad Health.

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Like, what are the other

things you're doing?

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And I'm also curious about how

did you establish the balance?

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Because obviously if you're going

to be a scaling company, you

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can over engineer everything.

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So how did you figure out what to

scale and what you weren't going to do?

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How did you prioritize,

I guess, in that context?

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Liming Zhao: Yes.

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So let's answer the first question.

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Um, the differences between my executive

journey at Compass and at Nomad Health.

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On my personal level, certainly a lot more

lessons, mistakes made, lessons learned.

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So like I said, a little

bit more experience, some

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more tools around my belt.

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I think a major difference I, um,

intentional exercise to during my

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executive role at Nomad Health is to.

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Listen more because, uh, essentially, you

know, um, as I said, the executive leader,

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you need to be both deep and broad.

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So being curious, listen to

other aspect of the business and

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really chiming, but also be very.

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Credible about the technology

ownership is some activity.

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I don't think I was able to, or, you

know, reliably perform and, uh, compass.

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Also understood that was my first startup,

first, uh, uh, uh, leadership experience.

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And also early on the executive team

at compass are all first timers who

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are trying passionately about things.

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So there are a lot of figuring things out.

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And whereas Nomad Health, I think,

uh, fortunately business has

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recruited many industrial experts.

427

So I learned a lot, even during those

conversations, seeing them, how they

428

tell the story about their business.

429

And then chime in with data,

chime in with what if we try this?

430

What if we try that?

431

So those kind of activities, learnings,

or even in a way that the position

432

that I put myself in that room is

potentially a, uh, major differences

433

when you are, you know, 2nd time,

a 3rd time doing an executive role.

434

So now coming to your 2nd question,

which is, How do you strike the balance?

435

I actually did give that a lot of

thoughts because when I look at the

436

business, one thing that our founder and

CEO usually quote is like, when I met

437

Liming, he said one thing that really

stick with me, and I said, every modern

438

technology company must be a data company.

439

So, let's actually get our data right.

440

So, the very first thing I spent

a lot of effort on is to make

441

sure that we are structuring,

defining the data schema right.

442

And we are storing and cleaning up,

cleansing up our data right in which

443

way we can really draw insights,

validate and reason against it.

444

It took a quite a long time, but once you

get your data right, and the way systems

445

generating data, the dependencies, the.

446

Joins and the reasoning around, right?

447

You can actually get rid of your

product services much faster because

448

now you can rely on a consistent API

or schema of exchanges as we all know,

449

like writing some business logic.

450

It is not hard, right?

451

Capable engineer can quickly

write that whole code.

452

The real problem is that when it

actually reads the data of a malformed,

453

uh, uh, structure, it breaks.

454

And, uh, many times you

don't even know that, right?

455

So for that part, we moved steadier

and slower, and I think it's important.

456

Other parts, for example, trying some,

uh, new framework, I usually aim, like,

457

first of all, let's have a debate.

458

Why is it even worth thinking about this?

459

And is there a business value?

460

But ultimately it's too fast, right?

461

Do quick experiments.

462

Does it really get us any gain

from a productivity perspective,

463

from a business value perspective?

464

From being able to, uh, enable some

additional strategic opportunity

465

perspective, but if there's a there,

there try it so fast, either you prove

466

it's working and then we all in on this.

467

Or show it's after all, it's just

like, you know, how do you call this?

468

Like, uh, in our idea was like

a half a kilo versus 500 grams.

469

It's essentially the same.

470

Right.

471

Yeah.

472

So, um, those are the kind of

balances I'm trying to strike.

473

It's like, as you look at your entire

business and tech tech stack, get the

474

foundation of things really early on.

475

Right.

476

And take some time.

477

And let your team really drive that's

nuances of how service should be

478

separated, how front end framework

should migrate, whether we're going

479

to have legacy part of the code

still sticking around for a long

480

time, or we need to dedicate it a

major effort to kick it into a new.

481

You know, front end framework

or, or API framework, et cetera.

482

Eric Brooke: Cool.

483

Thank you for that.

484

And thank you for sharing

your kind of history.

485

So looking at the kind of the

broader abstract and meta, what

486

does success look like to you and

what has helped you be successful?

487

Liming Zhao: Um, I think, you know, it.

488

Depends on how do you

define success, right?

489

I think for a company at a business

level, um, to me, success means that

490

you're really producing, creating value.

491

You're transforming the industry

that this business operates in.

492

I give a concrete example at the usual

research, you know, we proved that

493

specialized ASIC actually can produce

the fastest Results in certain areas.

494

Nowadays, everyone has, of

course, GPUs for AI, right?

495

At the personal level, it's

slightly different, in my opinion.

496

At a personal level, success to

me means setting a slightly more

497

ambitious goal and achieving it.

498

And repeat that and repeating that

is very important because that

499

means it's not because of luck and

repeating that is the joy, right?

500

You constantly stretch yourself and

achieve that on a repeatable fashion.

501

I also relate this to sports.

502

I like sports.

503

So think about it.

504

It starts with setting go, right?

505

Measurable targets and then come up

with a development training plan.

506

Um, And, uh, maintain the discipline and

consistency, at least don't just train for

507

a day, every day, whether you like it or

not, and build a support network, right?

508

You, you should invite your

teammates and get a mentor.

509

Right, and then be agile

during the competition.

510

Nothing is guaranteed.

511

You may be practicing

on this kind of turf.

512

every, every day in the past

year, but suddenly it's muddy.

513

Right.

514

And then finally, and very

importantly, celebrate small wins.

515

And that to me is the

process of, uh, uh, really

516

gain the, understand what success

means and also enjoy the journey

517

of getting to that success.

518

Eric Brooke: So, I mean, I'm going to ask

you the reverse question for a second.

519

Like, obviously we all want to be

successful, but we're not successful.

520

And I feel like you've kind of

implicitly answered this from

521

your scientist background, but

how do you think about failure?

522

Liming Zhao: Failure is definitely

frustrating, and you should find

523

a proper venue to let it out.

524

Don't recommend family members,

but there are other appropriate

525

ways, such as peer groups, right?

526

And we can talk about that

because you and I are in a, I

527

think I enjoy that peer group.

528

Uh, first of all.

529

Let it out, but I think most failure,

I couldn't see every failure.

530

Most failures are

opportunity of learnings.

531

And therefore, I think both at

the individual level and more

532

importantly, for a company is to

create a space safety space, right?

533

Again, go back to the earlier topic.

534

What we want to slowly in this

case, risk profiles a little bit

535

bigger, but other things, you know,

trying, trying the new frameworks.

536

Discipline it, but we expect it

to not work and you'd better prove

537

us working or not working quickly.

538

So, in a way, maybe go back to

personal career planning is.

539

In certain things, it takes time,

so 1 failure doesn't mean anything,

540

but in other areas, probably

you should set some timelines.

541

If it doesn't work, maybe

you're not good for this.

542

Right?

543

Again, going going back

to the Atlas, like.

544

Not everyone is going to

win Olympic gold medals.

545

Uh, so you should set proper expectations.

546

Eric Brooke: Thank you.

547

Okay, is this something that you're

looking into or figuring out or

548

exploring at this moment of your career?

549

Yes, as I

550

Liming Zhao: said that I am now, uh,

you know, looking to explore my next

551

chapter and, uh, obviously, nowadays,

if any conversation doesn't touch

552

the keyword AI, it will be strange.

553

So I cannot get out of that,

uh, you know, trend either.

554

So I'm definitely

exploring applications of.

555

New AI or classical eye into the

industries that I am passionate about.

556

Give an example, you know,

I'm looking into examining the

557

healthcare industry, right?

558

I'm pretty sure like, every one of us can

name a few legit problem with healthcare.

559

Right now, you probably can

recall something that you're

560

frustrated about just a few days

ago about healthcare, right?

561

But the interesting is the thing is

that probably smart people, uh, can

562

come up with legit or reasonable

solutions to half of those problems.

563

But the real interesting thing is that if

you look back 10 years, very few of those

564

problems were fundamentally addressed.

565

If you look up the healthcare tech

startups, you know, names, what you

566

see is a rolls of tombstones, right?

567

So to me, what I'm trying to

figure out is not only is there a.

568

Urgent problem that might have a

feasible solution, but really, what

569

is that pressure and urgency for this

industry and the participants to change?

570

Right.

571

Essentially, I want to figure out

not only there is a perceived value

572

of applying AI in healthcare, but

really it is practical and immediate.

573

I'm sure, you know, you and our

friends and maybe the audience of

574

this podcast has a lot of thoughts,

so I welcome suggestions and feedback.

575

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

576

Thank you.

577

What are you seeing in the wider

market in technology today?

578

Thank you.

579

Liming Zhao: Let's still talk about

AI, because I think there are a lot of

580

concerns about AI, such as, you know, is

this going to really end, you know, human

581

civilization?

582

I think, you know, everything has risk.

583

And if you magnify the risk,

anything can wipe out human race.

584

But we have seen a lot of

technology evolution in our history.

585

I usually go to, like, the

invention of automobiles and

586

mass production of cars, right?

587

And In less than probably 20 or 30

years, you couldn't even give away your

588

horse, your carriage cart, because of

the automobiles is so readily available.

589

And today, if you look back, I

think, other than leisure purposes,

590

nobody wants to ride a horse to

work and rely on a horse to commute.

591

And more importantly, if you look

at one car produced today, I think

592

the amount of people, the amount of.

593

Resources get involved, probably

outnumbered the entire horse

594

and carriage industry back then.

595

So I want to look at the

positive, stable future of all

596

these technologies, such as AI.

597

And by the way, even when cars were

invented, it kills people, right?

598

There was no traffic signs,

even though it was running

599

like insanely slow, slow speed.

600

There's no traffic rules.

601

So we will do the same thing.

602

We will regulate AI.

603

We will come up with the compliances and

regulations to make sure it is applied.

604

In the proper way, but If we

believe similar thing can be

605

achieved, I really see a very

bright future of AI applications.

606

Essentially, I call this

a superhuman, right?

607

It's actually now a person can do so much.

608

We can really focus on what we are

the best at and let AI and a chain of

609

agents to help us to do the rest, right?

610

That is super attractive.

611

Just like this kind of virtual meetings.

612

We don't have to be sitting in a physical

room for these conversations to happen.

613

Imagine that.

614

You view the real limitation, you

know, when the AI for the path, you

615

know, penetrates into our life and work

the real value that that the critical

616

value we can bring is our creativity.

617

Have you thought about something and

the 2nd thing is, can you validate that

618

when they actually produce a result?

619

Does it really work?

620

Is it real?

621

Right?

622

I think humans do place

a critical role in that.

623

So.

624

In a broader market now, I've

also heard about like, oh, is

625

this going to significantly reduce

software engineering salary?

626

I don't have a crystal ball.

627

I cannot predict, but I think at least one

possibility would be very capable software

628

engineers are going to be even of higher

demand because they can do a lot more.

629

They can do back end, front end, you

know, system, everything you name it,

630

because They are currently, they will

be equipped with AI that all these, you

631

know, um, peripheral things are going

to be taken care of and they focus on

632

the ultimate creativity of the system

they deliver and ensuring the validity

633

of the results that the system delivers.

634

Eric Brooke: Nice.

635

I often think this is the opportunity

for us to evolve and not do the same

636

things we were doing before because,

um, this version of AI can help

637

us and assist us and support us.

638

But I also agree with, we do

need guidelines because people

639

will push those guidelines.

640

Oh, yes.

641

We need to protect us to a

degree, but it is an opportunity.

642

Um, I concur with you.

643

Okay.

644

What has helped you grow as a human, but

also as a professional in your trade?

645

And what continues to help

you grow and scale now?

646

Liming Zhao: I consider myself

lucky that I have always worked

647

with high performing managers.

648

So I think I learned many things

from every one of my managers.

649

By the way, I think if it's that true

for, for any, any of us, that's a

650

bless because People who work in the

work environment are context aware

651

of what we're being challenged with.

652

So their mentorship is of,

I think, a higher value when

653

it compares to just find any.

654

You know, group of people who

randomly get together, so highly

655

recommend new leaders to find a

mentor, potentially inside a company.

656

If your company is large enough, right?

657

Cross functional to avoid some

sensitivity, basic common senses.

658

But because this context relevant.

659

Advises you are actually going

to tackle the challenges they're

660

facing much more effectively.

661

Another way to do that, I found.

662

Useful and effective is to join

a peer group, such as advice.

663

Not trying to make an advertisement

here, but I think the uniqueness

664

of them is that they handpick.

665

Helpfully curate.

666

A small group of people that faces

similar stage of career challenges

667

and stay together for years is such

a value because then the conversation

668

is not about what's trendy today.

669

We actually revisit again and again,

practical challenges of our company,

670

our role, our dynamics within the

company or outside the company.

671

And make very relevant suggestions.

672

And then a few months

later, ask, did you do that?

673

What was the result?

674

So, in a way that you kind of

while doing only 1 job, you are

675

observing multiple jobs being down

and challenges being addressed.

676

It's a very effective way to learn.

677

That said, I think one should

still challenge oneself with

678

some kind of external pushes.

679

For example, Intentionally checking with

some people in your network that are

680

for the long in the professional journey

to get some outsider perspectives.

681

In this case, as I encourage very honest,

strong pushes kind of suggestions to

682

force you to think outside the box.

683

Why do you have to do this?

684

Right?

685

Have you considered something else?

686

Is this mean very brutally?

687

Is this time for you to

consider a different role?

688

Those are very, very

challenging questions.

689

I don't think any of those.

690

Mentors inside your company are

going to tell you about that.

691

Also, I think, you know, today

information is very readily available.

692

You can read a book, you can listen

to the book, listen to podcasts

693

like this and a few others.

694

I try to use my fragment time

anytime I'm in emotion, like I'm

695

on the car, in the, in the train.

696

Just listen to that and,

uh, gather his information.

697

And, uh, sometimes whatever suggested,

well at least spend a few minutes, just

698

listen to it and see if it's interesting.

699

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

700

Thank you.

701

And my last question for you today,

the Ming, is what do you do for fun?

702

Liming Zhao: Oh, that's a great one.

703

I actually do like things I do

outside my work, which is, you know,

704

our job is software engineering.

705

So my hobby outside work is actual

engineering without the soft part.

706

So building physical things.

707

Small things, such as building

smart devices from actually buying

708

those controllers and programming

it to, you know, physical small

709

constructions of objects in my backyard.

710

I built a shed.

711

I mean, I literally joke was like,

when I bought it from Costco, I

712

thought it was like, a few Lego pieces.

713

Yes.

714

2000 pieces, right?

715

And then I later on, I set up a zip line.

716

Rope courses between the trees, et cetera.

717

Very quickly.

718

I learned that software is so easy.

719

Hardware is much harder, right?

720

It took me multiple tries to

make sure that the foundation

721

frame is square, not a diamond.

722

And then sometimes, but only until

I put the door on, I realized

723

actually, there is a toot in the beam.

724

So those are very fun learnings

and really get your body exercise

725

and mind onto a different thing.

726

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

727

Thank you for sharing that.

728

2000 pieces.

729

That's, uh, yeah, like Lego, um,

Millennium Falcon Lego kind of thing, but.

730

Um, but harder.

731

And I mean, thank you very much for

your time and transparency today.

732

I've enjoyed listening

to you and your advice.

733

Thank you very much.

734

Thank you.

735

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