Author, podcaster, and sex & culture critic Ella Dawson joins host Emily Hessney Lynch for a conversation about all the highs and lows of publishing your debut novel, the mental health impact of the post-publication adrenaline crash, and doing the work to process all those big feelings and keep moving forward. We also chat about Ella's podcast, Rebel Ever After, and the fun and fulfillment she's finding as she interviews other amazing, progressive romance authors.

In the second half of the episode, we dive into the world of social media and engage in some cathartic ranting about techno-optimists who don't realize the dangerous implications of their technologies, the rise of bad faith commenters, and some of the most egregious outrage algorithms. Ella also shares what she's learned about when to speak up and use her privilege and her platform, and when to shut up because the world doesn't need your voice right now.

For more of Ella and Emily's work, check out:

• Ella's Instagram
• Ella's debut novel, But How Are You, Really? in hardcover or ebook.
• Rebel Ever After podcast
• Ella's Patreon
• Emily's Instagram
• Serve Me the Sky Digital

This is a production of the Lunchador Podcast Network. Our logo was created by Tenderchomps Art.

Mentioned in this episode:

Murphys Rank The World

Meghan, Skye and Tim know you have a lot of choices in life. That's why they're undertaking the herculean task of ranking the world! Join the siblings Murphy as they rank everything from sandwiches to cryptids in their neverending quest to help you find the best. Find it where you get your podcasts!

Behind the Glass

Behind the Glass Gallery podcast is a monthly talk with the current month's BTG Roster. Artists are interviewed about their submissions and we dive deep into their process, inspiration and thought process centralized around their artwork in the Behind the Glass Gallery located in the heart of Downtown Rochester NY.

Joe Bean Coffee - Coffee that Lifts Everyone

Use promo code Lunchador for 15% off your order! https://shop.joebeanroasters.com

So I get served so many lizard reels now. Like guy who has a lizard in his house, man who's creating a lizard museum in Bushwick, lady who is feeding spiders to her lizard, lizards doing little dances. There's some ways where the algorithm is so pure that I'm like, you've realized I'm autistic and I just want to see a cute little gecko. Thank you.

Hello and welcome to It's A Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot. On this show we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of social media, parenthood and more. When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy. That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting, messy feelings and keeping it real about how we feel. We could all use a little more of that sometimes. I'm your host, Emily Hessney Lynch, and today I'm excited to be chatting with Ella Dawson.

Ella is a NYC based sex and culture critic and the author of But How Are You, Really? A romance novel about college reunions and millennial angst. She's also the host of the podcast Rebel Ever after, where she shines a spotlight on progressive romance novels. You can follow Ella on Instagram @brosandprose. Make sure to grab her book from your favorite indie bookstore or your local library.

I first ran into Ella's work back on Twitter in the day and she was working as a social media editor at TED. I've always loved the smart and funny things she says about social media, pop culture, books, and more, so I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Welcome to the show, Ella.

Hi. Thank you for having me and thank you for being so nice.

Of course, of course. I want to start by talking about your podcast a little bit. What's it been like launching Rebel Ever After?

It's been extremely fun and fulfilling. I always wanted to have a podcast, but I was so conscious of wanting it to have a purpose.

And so when I landed on oh, I want to interview other romance authors, it just came together and clicked really quickly. I published my first book, as you said, last year, and my favorite part by far was getting to know other authors and talking about their work and my work and our goals and the challenges that we face as authors trying to do something progressive and forward thinking right now. And so it's been really nice to be able to tap authors I respect on the shoulder and say, "hey, can I talk about how cool you are for an hour?"

And it's still a small indie podcast in terms of its listener base. But the folks who tune in are really dedicated and no one has said no so far to coming on. So that's been really exciting and intimidating. I'm having fun.

I was just going to ask if you'd had any nos so far. Did you have any big surprising yeses?

I was really blown away by. Adriana Herrera and Joanna Shupe are like two historical romance authors who I think of as being like such big deals.

And they were both incredibly generous and happy to come on the podcast in its earlier days too. So that really blew me away. And I'm at the point now where publicists are starting to pitch me authors when they have books that they're working on.

And I've had some big names pop up in my inbox. I'm just like, holy shit, of course I'll talk to Alexandria Bellefleur. Or like, I can't even Sarah MacLean, like there it's been, it's really. I don't have imposter syndrome. But at the same time, every so often I'm like, "I actually don't know if I'm gonna be able to keep my cool talking to this person."

But romance authors in general are very humble and down to earth and generous and we're all big nerds in our own way. So it's been really nice.

That's amazing. It sounds like it was such a fun experience so far.

It's been really rewarding. And I started doing it as kind of like a post election crash out project and I really didn't know if it would be sustainable or if anyone would be interested. And it's grown into something really surprising and fulfilling and turns out I'm a pretty good interviewer, which I didn't expect.

I've always considered myself a kind of self involved person and so it's been really nice to hear from other. From guests that they enjoy the questions that I ask. So maybe it's making me a better person too.

You're so curious and you're so. You're so good at romance and you just know so much. I feel like it would make you ask great questions. You know, you do a great job with those interviews.

Thank you.

I'm curious, what are some of the hard parts of podcasting so far? I know it's definitely not easy. As someone who just started one myself, it's a lot of work. So what's been tough about it so far?

It's definitely been a lot of work. I think the thing that I struggle with most is Just continuing to have the discipline and balancing the different parts of your brain that you have to engage. Because I'm not a great project manager, and so having multiple irons in the fire at once is difficult for me.

Knowing I have to have the episode go up this week, I have to edit it, but I also constantly have to be reaching out to guests and constantly working on questions and having interviews on a rolling basis. And so it's a bit like, I don't know what exhausted metaphor I should use.

I am constantly switching gears, and I'm more of a I want to work quietly by myself in the corner type of person. This is my first time wrangling something that requires constantly collaborating and talking to strangers and scheduling and answering emails.

And so just that has been really difficult. But when I have a task, I will focus in on, do that task. So I will sit and edit for 8 hours if I need to, but make me send an email to a publicist. Good lord, that's going to be a struggle.

Feel you on that. I find myself enjoying editing so much more than I expected to because you can just get so focused and in the zone, and it's, like, nice to just chill out and focus on that one task at a time.

It's meditative. It's. You have to be so focused that you really can't do anything else or you'll miss a weird gasp, you know?

And then I find myself enjoying the marketing more than I thought I would like. I know I do marketing for my job, but it is also fun to figure out how you'll get people to listen to this episode and what are the most, like, salient or interesting parts that you want to promote.

And also just being able to promote your own content and something that you're creating and that you're passionate about, as opposed to promoting the work of a customer or a client. It's a different satisfaction. And for me, having worked in social media for so long, it's been really nice to focus on. I'm going to promote myself because I believe in this work and I know what's most interesting about it. And I'm like, yay, I don't have to promote a TED talk by some blowhard who I find exhausting.

Definitely a lot more fun than doing that. What's working well for you with marketing your podcast so far?

That's a great question. I mean, I'm so distracted by all the things that I'm not doing that it's hard to know if what I'm doing is working really well or if it's just the one thing that I'm doing. I'm not a video content creator, so I'm constantly aware of all the things that I should be doing to market the podcast that might be effective.

But I will say just doing very basic quote cards and having, like, an established post that I do every time an episode comes out and share and doing a collaborative post with the guest, I think it's almost become its own extension of the podcast brand. Or people wait for the post and I've had guests come on and be like, I'm worried about giving you a quote for the announcement post. I'm like, that's, first of all, that's very silly. Don't worry about that. But it's become its own anticipated thing, and that's been really satisfying to see.

And, like, people know that that's the most effective way that they can help the podcast grow is by sharing that post. It's satisfying. It's like, oh, I'm working on this person's launch post on Instagram. Oh, this is the quote that I'm going to choose.

And it's just been really satisfying, too, to have, like, an established brand kit for a project I'm doing. Like, I have my logo that I love. I know my typefaces, I know my colors. Like, it's so pretty.

That's really cool. It was actually very inspiring to me when I was working on my podcast stuff. Like, I showed your logo to my husband, who designed my logo, and he helped me come up with, like, my carousel format because I knew those quotes that are shareable are so important to growth on Instagram. And I think your brand is, like, so identifiable. And I always, like, find stuff I want to share from your quote carousel. So, like, keep up the good work. You're doing great!

Thank you. I'm glad. I, like, I look at the numbers. I also, I get dinged a lot by the Instagram algorithm because the content of the podcast can skew adult or political. Like today's post, beloved Chloe Angel. I adore her, but we talked about her husband is running for Senate, and we talked about penetrative sex.

And Instagram's algorithm was just like, absolutely not. And I am not sharing this with anyone. So it's always wild comparing which posts, quote, unquote, succeed and which don't.

But I like that when you go to my profile, you can kind of scroll and see the range of episodes so they serve a purpose even if they don't go viral on Instagram.

That totally makes sense. Switching gears a little bit, I want to hear more about your debut novel. So give us like the elevator pitch for it. And then I want to hear about the writing process too.

At that point I kind of hit the ceiling of how far I could go. I was extremely burnt out and just going through a lot of what is my life, what am I doing feelings.

I was also in a pretty shitty relationship at the time and just having a lot of deep thoughts of I've kind of lost touch with myself and my values and the type of life I'd want to live. And I went to my college reunion and it was such a palpable place of I remember who I wanted to be when I graduated and I felt so far away from that.

And after the reunion, I couldn't stop thinking about how intense it had been, but also what an amazing setting it would be for a book.

And that summer, like two or three months later, I quit my job and I didn't really have a plan and I did some like consulting gigs. But mostly I was just spending hours and hours writing this book and like vomiting up a first draft.

And that's the premise of the book really is that Charlotte is a 26, 27 year old. She works in the media industry, she's an executive assistant for a thought leader type tech bro jerk.

And she goes to her five year reunion and comes face to face with how much she's drifted from her friends and her values and is very depressed and burnt out. And her senior year situationship also happens to be there and he's had a very bumpy time since graduating as well.

And the two of them kind of get pushed together by fate at the reunion to spend time together and reconnect and realize, oh, we were much more compatible now. And it's very swoony and sexy and full of like college nostalgia and also just cringe millennial behavior. I wrote that first draft. It was pretty bad, but I wrote it. And that was shocking. Took me like six months maybe. And then I spent. At that point, the pandemic started.

And then I spent most of that first year of the pandemic doing a complete overhaul. And I had had an agent who I'd been speaking to for years, but I never signed with. And I sent it to her and she's like, "this is great. You should rewrite the last third and then send it to me again." So I did that and. And at that point the book was very different from what the first draft had been in the good way. It had plot, for example, and she signed me and then we did like another big rewrite and then we sold it four years time. I don't remember time. It took a few years and then it came out last summer. So actually right after my tenure reunion.

So it was a five year old process. And then the book is out and it's available and you can buy it as a hardcover or as an ebook or as an audiobook or find it at your library. Please don't pirate.

What a journey. Five years in the making to get it out into the world.

I feel like readers just forget because you can gobble up a book so fast and you don't realize that it's so many years of someone's life going into it.

Yeah, it's. I think a lot about this. I've reread it a few times since it was published because I needed it fresh for my book tour. And I've worked on some projects since then where I needed it fresh. I like annotated a copy page by page for an auction and you can read it in four hours.

And it's so strange to be like, this was the most important part of my life for longer than I was in college and now. Yeah. And it's very strange and anticlimactic.

People talk a lot about depression after publishing because it is just like, oh, now it's done and everyone has moved on and they expect another one. And I'm like, I don't know if I got that in me because that one took five years. Oh, man. And I am tired.

I bet that's very understandable. Talk to me a little bit about that. Like that kind of slump feeling of struggling to write something new right now.

Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, the thing about publishing a book is that you have the years and years of working on it and then you sell it and then you have a year or two or three of waiting and preparing and doing all the marketing and like worrying about it and then you have basically a month where you are the queen of the show, where people want to talk to you about the book. Maybe you do a book tour. Maybe the review is coming out, if you're lucky, people read it and it's at the front of bookstores. And then when that.

Once that month is over, everyone moves on and there's a new batch of books and it can feel like again, I don't really have a metaphor for it because it is just like, wait, what? It's over. We're done celebrating the thing that I did after. It's such a crash emotionally.

And you're running on adrenaline and hopes for so long, too, because you're anticipating this huge professional achievement. And even if everything goes exactly right, you still are left with that just complete drop of adrenaline, possibly a lot of disappointment, depending on what you expected.

I think your first book, your debut book, is particularly brutal because you're doing everything for the first time, and so your expectations are wildly skewed based on what you've seen in the world.

I think most of us are only aware of maybe 20 books that are out in the world just from walking around and going to Barnes and Noble and looking at the New York Times bestseller list or looking at what Vulture is reviewing.

But there are hundreds of books published every single month, and most books are just kind of there in the ether and don't really strike for whatever reason. So my book was one of those. It didn't really make a dent, and that's okay, but I was kind of deluded. I've always had, like, main character syndrome.

I was kind of like, wait, what do you mean? I'm not like a USA the bestseller? What do you mean, Netflix isn't interested in adapting my book?

Like, I really was delulu, and it was a real wake up call of, like, girl. It's taken a lot of work for me to understand that writing the book was the achievement. Getting it published was the achievement.

Authors move the goalposts constantly because it feels like there are so many ways that you're supposed to succeed, whether it's the USA Today list or movie adaptation or winning awards or getting starred reviews. Like, there are always ways that you are not succeeding, and you really lose sight of getting to write the book and getting people to read it.

And I've done a lot of work in therapy and on the podcast to remember that. My goal was never to be a Lambda Literary Award winner. It was just to write this book that meant a lot to me.

But when you have all of that disappointment and embarrassment and confusion, all of those feelings in your brain, it really gets in the way of then being creative again. So I made the mistake of not starting to work on anything new before my book came out.

A lot of people say, like, while you're waiting for that first book to publish, you need to start the second one. I did not do that. I was too sleepy and just going through a lot of stuff. And now I just.

I have a lot of ideas, and then when it comes time to actually sit down and write pages, I'm like, I'm going to play Nintendo Switch. So I've just kind of said I'm not working on a second book because I. It'll come when it comes. And right now I would rather just focus on my cat and the podcast and paying rent and writing for myself when inspiration strikes.

Sounds like plenty to have on your plate for right now. It's more than enough.

And the world is a disaster! Like, how am I supposed to write a beautiful happily ever after that's inspiring and cute and swoony, like, things are bleak right now?

And just look to Taylor Swift! I didn't know if we'd get through this podcast without mentioning her.

don't get me started! I can't get into the discourse. I'm too tired.

Oh, Taylor. speaking of the disappointment you were talking about, is there anything that's helped you kind of work through those feelings? Or, like, how do you cope with it when you're feeling envious or just really down and depressed about it?

That's a great question. I think it's been very helpful to understand that most authors struggle with this too. And I've been very lucky to have stumbled into a community of other authors who are very generous and at similar points in their careers. And I also, because of the podcast, get to speak with authors I really admire and look up to as role models.

And sometimes on mic, usually off mic, they'll share like, :oh, yeah, no, my publisher's not picking up my next book" or "my book, my series didn't sell well enough. And so I'm self publishing the last one."

It's been very helpful to understand that it's not about me, it's not personal. This is an industry that wants to make profit at the end of the day.

And we are at a moment where all industries are swinging in a more conservative, cautious direction. One, because they're afraid of the administration, and two, because people do not have as much discretionary spending right now.

So they publishers want to invest in sure things. And my queer Anti capitalist communal little love story was never going to pop off because that's not how capitalism works.

And the more that I write a book that aligns with my values, the worse it will probably do in the conventional success model. And that's okay. That's fine. It's been really helpful to be like, well, what. What is important to me? It's not pleasing the target curator. It's writing a book that is a weird little inspiring freak for trauma survivors and shy bisexuals. So I love having community is such a. It feels like a cliche to be like, community is everything.

But I would not be a well adjusted, ish person if I had not made a lot of friends through this process. Thank goodness.

I love that. That you got to make your weird little freak and put it out into the world and reach, like, the right people. Like, that's so valuable. Even though capitalism doesn't really think so, we've got to bring back, like, patrons of the arts. Like, where are the billionaires investing in artists? Come on, like, step up to the plate, guys.

Seriously. Like, I love that Walmart heiress who was just like, "yeah, capitalism sucks. I should not be this rich. I want to pay more taxes." I'm like, why can't we have more heiresses paying more taxes?

Like, yeah, didn't Abigail Disney go in that direction too? I think she's like, "I don't want to be rich."

We need more of that. We need more Nepo babies who are like, "take my money." please give it to me!

We're waiting! Open hands! Is there anything you wish you had done differently when it comes to your publication journey?

There are a lot of decisions that my publisher and I made that seemed like great ideas at the time and that we had, like, sound reason to believe would help the book succeed. And it's a real hindsight thing of. It's not that I wish we'd done something differently because I don't think we made a mistake, but I think we miscalculated.

And something that I'm thinking a lot about right now is as I look at trends and just speaking to readers and my own habits is I don't think hardcover books should exist just at all. They're expensive and they are also the best margin of profit that the publisher gets is on the hardcover, and consumers do not want them.

Like, I love a hardcover, but when I think about it, I almost always am, like, I'm going to wait for this book to come out in paperback before I buy it. And the problem is publishers are now less frequently putting books into paperback if they don't sell well as a hardcover. And it's no longer assumed that a novel, a fiction novel, will get a paperback. That used to be quite standard. It used to be only nonfiction books that would stay in hardcover.

And it's so frustrating because the impulse, I think the better practice would be, let's put this out in paperback first and give it the best chance for readers to find it and for it to succeed, as opposed to, let's put it out in hardcover and if it lands with a thud, we're just gonna kill it off. And so looking back, I wish my book had been put out as a paperback instead of as a hardcover.

Lessons learned about how we were pitching the book and who wanted to buy it and who couldn't afford it. But I think when I look at publishing and when I look at trends, I'm really nervous about the way the prices are going up for books.

And I could rant a lot about special editions and sprayed edges and all the ways that publishers are, like, milking even more money from consumers on collector's editions that are not improving the quality of the book and in fact, make the book itself worse. Because the production timeline has to change. If you want to do something like sprayed edges. Less time is being put on editing the book and more is being put on. We have to add another month or two to the production of the book. To spray the edges like that, to me, is just soul crushing capitalism.

Yeah, I didn't pay as much attention to that until you started posting about it. And now I feel like I see those crazy special editions everywhere and I'm like, who is buying these? But people are.

People do buy them. And if you love a book, like, if you really love it and you want the collector's edition, that's totally real. Like, I think that's great. But I had a guest on my podcast, Katherine, who runs Grand Gesture Books in Portland, the romance bookstore.

And we were talking about how what even makes a book a special edition if it's the first edition and it has sprayed edges and it's only available at a certain store? Like, that feels more like a gimmick than like a beautiful piece of art that's made to commemorate a book.

And I just think it's a lazy way to raise costs for the consumer and make it prettier and more aesthetic for social media as opposed to making good books. But I'm a crank, so I think.

Good books and accessible books is so important. Like, I've been trying to buy fewer books and Then I always feel bad about it because I want to support the authors whose work I love.

But I also want to support the local library. And I only have so much space in home. You know, I think so many people are in that position, too.

The good thing I will tell people, because I don't think folks really understand this, is that you are still supporting authors by getting books at the library. Because libraries have to buy the book. And even if you are reading the ebook, there's only a certain amount of times that the ebook can be checked out. There's like a. There's a cap. And if they reach a certain cap, they have to buy another copy of the ebook, too. You're still supporting the author by getting it at the library. It doesn't reflect the same way in the sales numbers, but the publishers do see it. Never feel guilty about that.

And if you get at the library, write a Goodreads review or write an Amazon review, like, there are a lot of ways in which you can support the book's success that do not involve you spending a dime.

Yes, I always try to do those things. I was going to ask you what else readers should know that they might not know, but I feel like you just answered that. Is there anything else you want to add?

Good question. I think people hear a lot that preorders are very important and they don't necessarily know why. Every author I know, and myself, we scream about, you need to preorder a book. You need to preorder it. And it's so not something even I'm in the habit of doing, because I just am like, I want to buy it when I want to buy it, I want it in my hands. I'm bad at remembering, too.

But the reason why pre orders are so important, and this is probably not all of the reasons, but the biggest sales day most authors have is the first day the book comes out. And that's usually day of sales and preorders cumulatively. And that's usually an author's best chance of charting.

So preordering a book is a huge way to help a book have a big, splashy day one. It also sends signals to book buyers, bookstores like Barnes and Noble, like Target, all these places, that there is demand for this book. And they may order more copies, they may stock more copies. They will take it more seriously. They might decide to promote it even more.

If there's a big flood of preorders for a book that's been kind of like a sleeper from a debut author, that is a great, great sign that people should pour more gasoline on the fire. You are really making a difference if you help preorder.

And honestly, if you don't pre order that book, you may never see it in the store to buy it in person. So it's kind of a weird catch 22. But that's part of why pre orders are so important. When you see authors pleading with you, that is. That is part of why.

I didn't even know that charting was part of it. Like, I knew that it was important for authors, but I didn't have a clue that it was about the bestseller list too.

That's part of it. My best day of sales was my first day, and it was because of all the preorders. And I think people who had bought my book for my book launch, and I have never even come close to the amount of sales, quote, unquote, sales that I had that first day. A lot of math.

Is it true, the bestseller list? I feel like I've heard that you can like buy a spot on the list. Is that true or how does that work? Is that a myth?

All of the bestseller lists are determined a little differently, and it's a little bit of a black box. So you'll hear a lot of conspiracy theories about it as well. The New York Times is notorious for people buying their spots.

And what that means is buying copies of their own book. It's not paying the New York Times. You can see on the New York Times list, sometimes a book will have like a little dagger symbol next to it.

And that's the New York Times being like, guys, we think this is sus. And you will see that with politicians usually, whose super PAC will buy the copies of the book?

So, like, if Ted Cruz winds up on the bestseller list, it's probably because a PAC has bought thousands and thousands of copies of his book. You also see this with business leaders whose companies will buy the book and then that's like buying their way onto the list. So that's absolutely a thing.

There are a lot of shitty books that have been bestsellers because the guy was a billionaire and he bought shit ton of copies for his employees who are like, well, thanks. No, thank you for this. I think the Trumps had some daggers next to their books. I think it might have been Don Jr... I remember that being a whole thing of just like the lying New York Times. It's like, okay, sure. The other thing that is kind of complicated, I think the USA today is, is more notorious for this, but a lot of this is decided algorithmically. Like, they will pull data from the Big booksellers, but also random indie bookstores in specific metropolitan markets.

And I don't have it off the top of my head, but, like, the USA Today bestseller list is not all of the books that were sold during that week. It's. You will see people who pop up on the USA Today bestseller list who may have only sold, like 3,000 copies.

And then a few spots below them will be someone who sold way, way, way more copies. And it's just some weird black box algorithm. So threads often will have people talking about," why is this a bestseller? How did this happen? This makes no sense." You'll see authors be like, I actually don't know how this happened. And it's because there's a lot of algorithmic mess behind the scenes. It's weird.

It's weird and it's a little rigged. And I do want to put on, like, a little tinfoil beret at times. It's. Everything is kind of rigged is what I've learned in publishing.

Not to sound like a sore loser, but everything, like the indie next pick stuff. People pressure bookstores to choose certain books for their recommendations. Like, it's all kind of relationships and swapping favors and publishers anointing certain books. It's. it's a lot.

that is fascinating and, like, sadly, somewhat unsurprising, but disheartening, too. Well, thank you for enlightening us about all of that. I think we should take a quick little break, and then we'll get back into some more good stuff.

So I know we've talked a little bit in the past about your days at TED and that chapter of your career. The internet's changed a lot since then. Can you talk a little bit about, like, the evolution of social media since your TED days?

Like, I can't. I don't even. Like, Instagram didn't have video. It was so innocent. And my job at that point was just writing copy, like, some amount of strategy. But most of it was just, what piece of text can I put before this video? This link to a video to make people click on it, like, how can I rewrite the headline?

And now I've been kind of torn because obviously I am not a bestselling author and I need to pay the bills and I do enjoy working in the social media space, but so much of social media now is being a video content creator and I just don't want to do it. I don't find it fun. I don't find it interesting. I really enjoy helping artists or filmmakers, people who need to use social media to achieve a specific goal.

I really enjoy being like, "okay, how can we maximize your time and focus on specific platforms and reach that goal" as opposed to how can we turn you into a social media star? That's become my kind of consulting and coaching sweet spot. But yeah, it's completely different.

Oh, and then Twitter imploded and bluesky exists now and threads and like, who knows what bluesky will look like. There's a whole crisis over moderation right now. Like, everything is a mess. Like, it is just. It's constantly accelerating.

Social media is constantly getting faster and faster and faster. It's a lot. Hey, name of the show.

I don't know if there's any endpoint in sight either. Like, where are we going? What? It's, it's, it's going to get us to a dark place.

I feel like when I saw, like there's a whole. People are calling it like the TikTok slop. The AI video thing Sora put out. Yeah, like, when I heard about that, I was like, I never want to open that. And that is that we're screwed. Like, that is horrifying.

It's terrifying in any public figure who's like, been in videos and photos that can make videos of you doing anything. I saw bbno$ talking about how scared he is of what people are going to do with him.

Oh, my God. I mean, there's a lot of video content of me out there because of my TEDx talk and like, the different just ways I've been a loudmouth on the internet. Like, I'm sure ChatGPT could write an essay in my voice. I'm sure that Sora could figure out a way to put words in my mouth in a convincing video.

Like, I think the thing that upsets me the most is just that the people who are creating this technology just don't seem to have any interest in the ways it could be misused whatsoever. And that's always been true of techno optimists.

But, like, it is so wildly irresponsible with the technology that they're creating that it makes me very mad.

And honestly, that was a big part of why I left Ted was I was just like, I hate listening to these mostly white men talk about this technology they're creating and then look astounded when we're like, hey, security issues. Question. Are you aware you're going to break the entire world? They're like, oh, I never thought of that.

It is maddening. That is a lot.

it's grim.

Yeah. Oh, I don't. We keep getting into these grim places in this conversation.

I will say I really enjoy that my Instagram algorithm, I'm not on TikTok, but my Instagram algorithm has learned that I really like lizards. And so I get served so many lizard reels now. Like, guy who has a lizard in his house, man, who's creating a lizard museum in Bushwick.

Like, lady who is feeding spiders to her lizard. Like lizards doing little dances.

Like, there's some ways where the algorithm is so pure that I'm like, you've realized I'm autistic and I just want to see a cute little gecko. Like, thank you. This is so nice. So I'm grateful for the lizards.

It is perfect when they get you just right. Like, TikTok usually has done that for me. Not always, but I do enjoy when it hits the sweet spot. Just can't go in that AI slop of doom spot.

I want real lizard content, only real lizards for me.

Yes, 100% real lizards.

You mentioned being a loudmouth online, and I'm curious, like, what motivates you to keep going right now when it's like getting more and more dangerous to be a loudmouth online?

I realized recently that I've become a lot less loud just in terms of my posting magnitude. I post less frequently, I pick fewer fights, I go on fewer tangents on blog posts. I think part of that is growing up, I'm in my mid-30s. I have a bit more self control in moderation.

But it is also, we've reached a point where people engage in deliberate such bad faith all of the time and misunderstand what you're saying or put words in your mouth. Like, I'm not one of those people who's like, ooh, cancel culture bad. But I get so annoyed when someone just. I put.

For example, I posted on threads about my cat and how happy I am to have a cat and how I was isolating because I had strep throat. And someone replied being like, "well, you know, if you have Covid, you could give Covid to your cat, so you should be really careful. But yes, cats are great." And I just replied, I was like, "I do not have Covid." And the person was like, "yes. I didn't mean you. I meant like the royal you. I meant the collective you." This is why posting sucks!

Like, I post about how much I love my cat and you're like, you could kill your cat with COVID Like, what are you doing here? And so I do think I have become more intentionally loudmouthed.

Like, if I have something I really want to say, I will say it, even if it is going to piss people off. I've been posting incessantly about the Harry Potter fanfic romance books, for example, and gotten a lot of shit for that. Gotten a lot of heat for that. But very worth doing. I think I just really pick my battles now.

And if I have like a useless thought that's not really that important, I will put it on a platform where I know people do not have like brain poisoning. Like bluesky, whatever is. Honestly, every platform has its own poisoning.

Like on Bluesky you'll get people arguing with you about politics incessantly, but no one's going to be like, you're going to kill your cat. Whereas on threads, people will misinterpret everything you say. And they're encouraged to at times because that algorithm is extremely...it leans aggressively towards outrage in a way that I don't think people understand.

It's one of the worst algorithms I've seen in a text based environment and Bluesky because it's chronological and the algorithms don't really make sense. It's just like people be like, "oh, I also love your cat. Here are my cats." So that's nice. I'm like picking deliberately where I say stuff.

I swear that meta pushes me, I still don't have threads and they always send me push notifications of threads about things I don't agree with because they know that I'm going to click through and want to get the app and go yell at people. And I don't want to spend my time that way. Like, I know they're trying to get me engaged in this rage bait. And I'm not, not buying it.

it's very aggressive. And they'll put threads in the middle of your Instagram feed too. And it's just. It's constantly trying to drag you over and engage you in something that is not productive and maybe bad for your cortisol levels. And I think because it's so transparent, people have kind of caught on to the manipulation in it, but still very hard to resist. I do it too. I fall for it all the time.

Yeah, and you're getting lizard videos on your Instagram, meanwhile, I'm on Facebook clicking on reels of like, this homesteader mom and getting angrier and angrier at her, like, wellness grifter nonsense, leaving comments like, "no, do not use beef tallow as sunscreen." And then they're like, oh, she wants more of this. She wants more of this. And now I'm drowning in it.

Yeah, that's the worst. When you are hate consuming something and the algorithm's like, would you like more? Like, yes, but no, please.

I feel like TikTok knows when I'm hate consuming. Like, I don't know if they check the tenor of your comment or something, but they, like, seem to not serve me more of it. I don't know.

That's very interesting. Interesting.

Are there any steps you're taking to, like, protect your safety online when you're speaking out about things?

I've posted a bunch lately about using Delete Me. Like, really, any service where you can remove your personal information is worth investing in right now. There's some. I think there might be some free options. I use a paid plan on Delete me just because it's. It's such peace of mind.

But I think a lot of folks don't understand that their residential address is probably easily discoverable online. If you are registered to vote, a lot of your information is automatically fed into different online data basis.

If you register a small business, like, there are a lot of ways your residential address, your phone number, your email can be online. So I pay for a service that just does like, the annoying work of like faxing those people to be like, please take this offline.

Because a lot of it is analog and confusing. I also, there are just like, a lot of standard stuff that's become kind of automatic for me. I don't post about being at a location while I'm there.

I post after I go home. I am very careful with who I give my professional email address to versus my personal email address. I had a PO Box for awhile for mail, just like, basic stuff like that. I'm really trying to not engage with people who piss me off.

Like, if someone sends me rude Instagram message, I'm trying to just quietly delete it and not get, like, sucked into stuff. I'd been online for so long that I've kind of forgotten all the things that I do automatically.

But I remember in my twenties, for a while, I was like a feminist social justice warrior and got targeted a lot by the alt right. And so I had to learn very quickly, like, the way that your notifications can become overwhelming and. And how to filter and block preemptively.

And so now I feel like a jaded old head where I'm just like, "yeah, I had that guy blocked like 6 years ago. I see him harassing you. I'm so sorry. Here's some other people you should probably block, even though you don't know who they are."

You're a good mentor figure to other people getting online in that way.

I try to tell people, like, "hey, you seem like you're having a bad day. Can I help you figure out how to protect yourself? Like, can I help you before you get doxxed?"

I feel like I'm everybody's online disaster guru, and that's very fulfilling as well. It's like, I'm glad that these lessons are helping other people, even though they sucked to experience.

Fairy godmother of navigating the internet.

Yes.

How do you decide...we're talking a little bit about, like, trying to be more intentional with your social media. How do you decide when you're going to weigh in on a cultural conversation versus just sitting it out?

I try to look at who is engaging in the conversation and are they being heard. I think I've been thinking a lot about this as a cis person and as a white person.

Like, often if trans people are begging, for example, to take The Harry Potter Draco/Hermione Fanfiction books for folks who don't know what we're talking about. There were three romances that were. Two of them were category romances. One is like a dark fantasy with romantic elements.

But all three of them were published by very influential Harry Potter fanfiction writers who were given traditional book deals, potentially very lucrative ones, to rewrite their fanfics or to write something completely original. But it was still in the spirit of their fanfic to cash in on the enormous interest in Harry Potter fanfiction, specifically Draco Hermione fanfiction. And most trans people were like, hey, that sucks. Because J.K. rowling is massively transphobic and incredibly influential. And her transphobia is constantly being whitewashed and excused away and minimized. And by continuing to breathe life into her IP through fanfiction, even these books, while she may not be getting a check in the mail, she's still gonna benefit from people being interested in this fand. And trans people were like, "please do not buy these books." And no one else was talking about it for an extremely long time.

And it really broke my heart and everything kind of exploded because there was a romance convention this summer that had one of those authors as a featured speaker. And so everything kind of blew up.

But I was just looking at, I'm seeing all these trans folks and non binary folks, these authors speaking up and not being heard. So I'm going to barge on in here as a cis white person who's still in the queer community, but I'm going to use my privilege and my platform to be like, "hey, all of you need to pay some goddamn attention. Like, this is a serious thing. This is a real issue. You are ignoring these voices."

And I received a lot of messages privately from people, both trans and not trans being, like, thank you, thank you for saying something. And I think I opened the door for other authors to then say, oh, yeah, I am actually not a big fan of these books.

That's a moment where I was like, I think I can be helpful and I can amplify other voices and concerns without speaking over anyone. That's been tricky. But I felt very strongly about that. And I also, like, I used to write Draco/Hermione fanfiction as a kid.

Like, I understood the nuances of the ship and of the conversation. I still write fanfiction. There are a lot of different issues with what happened. Whether scraping the IP off of a fanfic and republishing it itself is really problematic as a practice. So I was like, I think I understand all of the nuances and I could be helpful.

That was a moment where I was like, this is definitely going to have professional consequences for me, but it's worth doing, and I'm glad I did. But all three of those books wound up being number one bestsellers anyway. So it's kind of disheartening.

And I'm hoping that at the end of the day, at least the folks I'm in community with who are trans saw that I understand what they're going through, or at least I have empathy and I want to be a safe community member for them so they were not screaming into the void. I at least heard them. Many people did.

That's such a good way of looking at it, like checking yourself and seeing where you can uplift other voices. And not just like I see so many people just jumping on a particular topic for clout and it's like, oh, I'm gonna give my hot take on this because that's what everyone's talking about right now and it's not always productive or helpful to do that.

No. And I do have, how can I say this in a way that won't make me sound like a crazy person? I have some one sided feuds with like influencers in the book space who have no idea who I that I exist. But I see the way that they behave online, the way that they comment on conversations like this in a way that's very self serving and generative of controversy and engagement numbers for them.

And even if they do it because they're saying they're taking a stance or they're claiming that they're values driven, they're doing it in a way that takes up oxygen or is just not, there's no follow through. And so I, I will cop to the fact that I have people who I'm like, I'm not going to be like that.

Like I'm going to try to always check myself of am I doing this in a way they would do or am I doing this in a way that is actually helpful.

And so learning when not to post and when not to contribute, if you are a person with a lot of privilege is often just as important as when you step up. Because sometimes you're not the right person, you don't know what you're talking about and you're doing it because you want to get a bunch of views. And that is incredibly distracting.

Like all of the conversation that's happening right now about Taylor Swift's album, I've just been like, you know what, I'm not going to say shit right now because right now I'm not the most useful voice.

I, I don't have the deep background of misogynoir and the way that like I, I am not the most useful commentator at this time and I'm also biased towards liking her music and I'm just gonna and watch and maybe in a few months I might have something useful to say. But right now the best thing I can do is just read all the stuff on my feed and text some friends and be like "what a mess!"

And it's totally fine to not say anything at all! I feel like Everyone forgets that.

There's a lot of people talking about it. The world does not need my voice right now.

Right.

My, like, half baked take is not helpful.

So true. I feel you on that one. You were talking a little bit about being in community with other authors, especially trans authors, and trying to hear and uplift people. So can you talk a little bit more about what it means to be, like, a good community member as an author?

in a very simple way, I just try to have a very diverse roster of guests on my podcast. Like, I try to do everything that I can to elevate books that I see that are doing something different in the market, whether it is the perspective that is being shown, the format of the book, if it's self published.

There are so many gatekeepers in publishing, especially when it comes to race, that a book by a debut black author is just not going to get the same amount of resources. And I want to put that book in front of as many people as possible.

I want to ask the writer questions that are also not to do with identity, that are about, like, their craft and their career and what they enjoyed. Like, they are also an artist. They are not only a black author.

I have my little platform, and I'm going to scream about these other books that are really good and worth seeing. I also try to be really cognizant of the ways that our biases can slip into the way that we review books and talk about books.

And one thing that you see a lot is "I really wanted to like this book because of the representation, but I didn't like it." And it's like, what are you really saying?

You're just saying, like, "I wanted to read this book because I wanted to be perceived as, like, a good ally, but I actually hated it." It's like, just. Then don't review it. Like, just, what are you talking about? Like, that's such an insulting caveat.

I haven't gotten a ton of that, but I've seen my friends get that of like, "oh, I really wanted to read a book by an indigenous author. But, like, I hated this book." It's like, okay, then you're being weird. Like, don't. Don't do that.

A lot of people will be like, "well, I couldn't relate to this book." And I'm like, yeah, because you're a white person. And that's. That's not. That's. That's not a bad thing either. Like, it's not. Every book should not be about you and your experience. Like, what are you reading books for the other one. And I've.

Like, were there gay people too? Don't tell me there were gay people too! That would be shocking.

Yeah, you see a lot in queer historical fiction. Like, what do you mean there were lesbians who were happy? Don't you mean all gay people were suffering? Like, it's just constantly.

That is historically accurate. It is almost always coming from a place of bigotry and ignorance, when in reality the author has done so much research.

I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the ways that review culture reinforces the same gatekeeping bullshit, often in a way that the reader and the reviewer wasn't even aware they were doing. That's been fascinating.

I think one of those. Yeah. Like, made me check myself a little because I think I've written like, oh, "I love this book. I just thought the protagonist was a little annoying when they did this."

Or like those small things that, you know, they have a mental illness or it's representing some kind of anxiety or depression, but like, you personally haven't gone through it, or you're not in that state in that moment and you forget what it's like or something like that and you judge the character too harshly.

Yes, I. The judging the character for making bad decisions is a thing that I see a lot in reviews and sometimes it comes from a place of bigotry and ableism when the character is going through some mental health stuff. But often. And readers forget that books are supposed to have conflict and if characters made every correct choice, there would be no story.

So like, often if you get frustrated with a character because they're being annoying or self sabotaging or they're not having the conversation they need to have with the other character to fix the problem. Yeah. Because there wouldn't be a book otherwise!

And if you're reading a book and you expect every character to make perfect, morally pure decisions all the time, go read a spiritual tract like, you're not. That's not what fiction is. So that doesn't sound very I'm guilty. Interesting. I'm guilty of that too.

I think it's very human to be like, "I just want to shake this character." But that's intentional too.

Like, no, I totally get that. I want to take a hard pivot here near the end and just talk about some more personal stuff.

I know you talk online sometimes about being childfree by choice. So can you like, expand a little bit on that? Like, what's life looking like now? What do you think your future will be like? And like, what are you excited about with a life without kids?

I think I always assumed that I would want kids and that I would someday have kids because I would someday want them. And then I was like, "wait, I still don't want them though." Like, I want to want them was often a thought I had of like, "oh, I wish I had this urge."

And I think for a long time I was, I foreclosed even letting myself think that I didn't want kids because I didn't want to shut off the idea of being with someone who wanted kids. I had this like, scarcity mindset of like, "well, I don't want to miss out on the right person."

It's like, well, first of all, that's dumb because that's not how compatibility works. But I just don't have the urge. And I've been thinking a lot about how being a parent is life changing. It's a massive responsibility. It's enormous.

And it should be something you opt into, not opt out of. And we live in a society where it's, you are the aberration if you want to opt out. But it's so, like, economically challenging.

Like, I just, I wish more people were like, "actually, this is a bad idea for me. I cannot be a good parent."

So it's been really liberating for me to just like, give myself permission to be like, yeah, this is not a priority and I reserve the right to change my mind. But I'm so happy sleeping and just being selfish. Selfish, just doing what I want to do.

It's new for me to even say I think I'm going to be childfree by choice. But it's like a weight went off my shoulders when I was just like, I'm going to stop beating myself up for not wanting something.

That's amazing. I'm glad you finally let yourself feel that way. Like, it is so much pressure in society to do it. And I think we don't acknowledge it all the time. I'm glad more millennials are thinking more about it and trying to figure out what's actually right for them.

Hopefully more wanted children as opposed to children that are acquired.

Yeah, you know, that did it, like, because we were supposed to do it. And when they're in their 50s and have adult children, it's like, "oh, I feel like you never actually wanted to be a parent, is that the case?"

Sadly, often, yes.

I was curious, like you were saying, if you would kind of reserve the right to change your mind someday. Not saying that you like, should or anything, like, totally respect the decision, but can you envision like an alternate reality where you might?

Yeah. And I think a lot about this of, like, if I hadn't been in like a shitty, abusive relationship for most of my 20s, maybe I would want kids because I would be kind of wired differently. Like, my nervous system is very different than it was five years ago or 10 years ago. And I think in an alternate universe I would have loved being a mom. And I've changed so much in the last, like five, 10 years that who knows who I will be in 10 years?

Maybe I'll be like, "I really want to mother people. I want to be maternal." So I reserve the right to not know yet. And maybe I will adopt someday. Who knows?

Maybe I will be an amazing auntie friend to my friend's kids. I'm an only child, which I think is part of it. Like, I don't have nieces and I'm never gonna have nieces and nephews either.

But there are a lot of ways that you can create a found family and be a parental figure in the life of a kid, even if it is not a blood relative. And I would really love to be a stepmom someday. I feel like I would be a great stepmom of like, "hey, you're 14, let's chat." Like, that would be. I think that would be a great.

I can totally see it. Like, hot 40something stepmom. You can have a whole movie about it.

Yeah. And I have all my like cool romantic books and I can give advice and be like, "yeah, I'm the person who you don't. I never changed your diaper. But I am a reliable authority figure."

So those people are so important.

We'll see.

And to your point about found family, we have a neighbor who does not have kids. And he has just like, like the best with our son. Every time we run into him, he's always so happy to see him. He plays with him, he brings him gifts from his travels, like cool, fun, pseudo stand in uncle. And he's the best. Like, need more of those people. Everyone says it takes a village.

And meanwhile, like, no one wants to be the village or build a village. So whether you're like part of a village with or without a kid, you can still be supportive.

I would love to be part of a village, raising a cool kid, and then go home to my apartment and sleep through the night.

Yes. Best of both worlds that way. Well, we've touched on how horrible the world is right now. Just to close, what's something that's bringing you joy right now when things are so heavy?

Can I talk about my cat?

Of course!

I was fostering a cat earlier this summer, and I just fell in love with her. I've always wanted a cat, but I was really worried that I wouldn't be able to take on the responsibility I had fostered in the past.

I had a really hard time with it, but I just fell in love with this cat. And Zoe is, like, the sweetest. She's so social and, like, always wants to be next to me. And it's just been so fulfilling to have this little alien in my house all of the time who wants food and wants attention. And I have a very difficult, I'm an introvert, but I have a very difficult time with isolation, especially when I get sick and I, like, can't see anyone for a week. And it's led to some really bad depressive episodes when I've gotten code in the past.

I've been stuck in my apartment for, like, 11 days because I had strep throat, and I've been fine because I've had this little fuzzy freak. And I just. I love her. It's just the best. That's awesome. Even though she's stinky.

Aww. Well, I'm glad you foster failed her. She sounds like a gem.

She's my baby.

Well, thanks so much for joining me tonight, Ella. It was really fun to get to chat with you more.

Thank you for having me. I could gab for, like, another six hours.

I know, right?

This has been a presentation off the Lunchador Podcast Network.

He wore a tinfoil beret. A poet who's a conspiracy guy. Tinfoil beret. And if it was facts, he wouldn't say much more. Tinfoil beret. I think he ruins things.