Anonymous female recorded 05/12/2019

In this episode I have a conversation on healthcare and IT. There’s a lot of coughing going on in this episode as pretty much everyone in Leeds seemed to have a terrible lingering cold with a very persistent cough at this time!!!

This is another kitchen episode, as I had not learned that lesson yet. We do cover a fair bit of ground in this interview as my guest moved into IT in the very early days and then came into the health sector later on. Pleasingly for me this is also the 1st episode to discuss trade union work.

Episode 3

[00:00:28] Working Hours: Where I want to get to with these is to start titling or at least tagging, these anonymous episodes with job titles or professions. The idea being to maybe help people considering certain careers learn what they might be getting themselves into and/or how they might get into it. I hope you enjoy episode three and I will be back at the end.

[00:00:53] Guest: Wow, good question. I don't know, but it was going to be something. I didn't know, but I did know I wanted it to be something like a lawyer or a doctor or a lecturer or a professor or

[00:01:11] Guest: Yeah.

[00:01:16] Guest: Yeah.

[00:01:17] Guest: Yeah. Absolutely, and meaningful.

[00:01:23] Guest: I work for [BLANKED]

[00:01:30] Guest: Sure, yeah.

[00:01:33] Guest: Um, it's good. It's the admin side. We get paid far too much money.

[00:01:39] Guest: Considering the amount of money that people on the wards and in the hospitals get paid, it's significantly more. It's far less stressful. I'm sure. Even at times when we're really busy, it's not life or death busy.

[00:01:52] Guest: So if we miss a deadline, you know, you might get a couple of scowls and, uh, tut-tut but if you're in a hospital and there's a crisis, it's totally different. Totally different. So, yeah, I think we got far too much money. I do really like the difference between where I am now and when I was working in a hospital doing admin.

[00:02:43] Guest: And you can talk about books that you really like and theories about things and people don't glaze, people actually join in and recommend things and you get some really lively discussions going on. And I love that. And I think that was part of wanting to do something that was professional, I guess. To be around people who are...

[00:03:04] Working Hours: People that have been educated.

[00:03:07] Working Hours: Which doesn't necessarily have to be elitist

[00:03:09] Working Hours: ...it's just that...

[00:03:09] Working Hours: ...people, that education does expose you to things.

[00:03:18] Working Hours: But I think that, again, that's not something that is innate, that has to come from somewhere that...

[00:03:24] Working Hours: ...has to be an influence.

[00:03:27] Working Hours: There has to be someone within your sphere when you were younger, that is self-educated or that is interested in educating themselves and then educating you.

[00:03:40] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:03:41] Working Hours: 'Cos I think the love of learning has to be, is something that has to be developed.

[00:03:47] Working Hours: Yeah. So how long have you been doing this for now?

[00:03:55] Working Hours: Okay. Um, and have you always worked in a sort of admin, admin environment?

[00:04:02] Working Hours: No.

[00:04:16] Guest: So after my third redundancy, I'd met my now husband and he was traveling a lot and I had the opportunity to go with him. So I decided to temp for a while. I had a redundancy package and I temped and ended up in hospital and it's one of those areas where you need to be able to grasp things quickly and you need to be able to translate things, I guess.

[00:05:26] Guest: And there's a lot of that.

[00:05:47] Guest: I'd like to see more people coming in, we're running an apprenticeship scheme, but I haven't seen anybody and I'd like to see schools make the opportunity available for children to come in and work when they're doing their work experience. Again, don't really see much of that. We need to be promoting that, getting kids in, getting them to see what it's like, look at the environment. I mean, it's a fabulous environment and if you're in the right team, I would say I've never worked anywhere better.

[00:06:19] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. And retain them.

[00:06:26] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:31] Working Hours: And you're also giving something back to the employee. So...

[00:06:34] Working Hours: ...They feel they're getting something from the employer.

[00:06:54] Guest: I've spoken to a number of people as a union rep who really don't want that. They're happy on the banding they are and they just want to stay doing that.

[00:07:20] Working Hours: And I don't really want any more than that.

[00:07:41] Guest: For me. Yeah. And I'm not there yet. And I'm 60, so I'm not going to get there. So I shall forever be striving, till I'm 70 when my mortgage is paid off. I wanted to be somewhere. I could make a difference and I could influence things. And at the moment I can only do that through my union work, which is great! But I don't get the opportunity in my day job to do that.

[00:08:14] Guest: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:33] Guest: Absolutely.

[00:08:36] Guest: No.

[00:08:43] Guest: Yeah.

[00:08:45] Guest: Well, people don't share best experience at work.

[00:09:04] Guest: So you find several teams doing exactly the same piece of work, because nobody's saying, actually, this is what we're working on, and this is how we're doing it.

[00:09:22] Working Hours: Yeah. Um, because they think they do it really well. They're not really up to criticism or looking to improve it. They decide we do this really well. And when it's actually examined a lot of the time, it's not done that well.

[00:09:39] Working Hours: Um, okay. So let's go on to the union for a bit, because we haven't really had any discussions union wise at the moment.

[00:09:51] Guest: Uh, my grandfather was always a staunch unionist. So I grew up around it. I joined, um, Unison when I went to work at [BLANKED] became a union rep, and then we actually ran into difficulties with management and ultimately management actually seconded me to the union full-time for three months.

[00:10:18] Guest: Towards the end of the negotiations. Um, so yeah, through, through family, I guess initially, but then just because if people are being treated badly, somebody has to stand up and say, hang on a minute.

[00:10:42] Working Hours: Yeah. Um, so, and you've stayed with them since?

[00:10:48] Working Hours: Okay.

[00:11:05] Guest: And it took, I would say about nine months in, when I still hadn't got anywhere, I approached Unite who put me in touch with their rep that same day. And by the afternoon, I'd transferred over as a rep for Unite.

[00:11:24] Guest: Six years also and I'm the only Unite rep in the whole building.

[00:11:38] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. Um, So, do you, do you find that rewarding, stressful?

[00:11:50] Working Hours: Do you find you get quite a lot of positive feedback from peers for it?

[00:12:12] Guest: And actually they work together pretty well. You know, I'm quite impressed by the fact that it does seem to be an equal footing when you're in the meeting. There's a couple of things that makes you think, yeah, you're trying to slip things out without us approving it, but I'm in a position where I am able to say, yes, that's fine.

[00:12:38] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:12:40] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:12:41] Working Hours: Which gives the best results.

[00:12:44] Working Hours: Um, so yeah. When you were seconded then, to the union we, were you in, were you sort of reping for them or working as a full time officer for the union.

[00:13:16] Working Hours: Right.

[00:13:21] Guest: Down to a band three. So... a lot of the women have been there for years and years, and years and years, it's such a job that people can move into and never leave, were losing seven and a half grand a year. It's a significant amount of money. And management had said it will save X amount of money and myself and one other union rep, were seconded over to try and find out other ways of saving the money, which we did.

[00:13:48] Working Hours: No. You can't win 'em all.

[00:13:51] Working Hours: Or most of them.

[00:13:54] Working Hours: You win some.

[00:13:56] Working Hours: Um, yeah. So, um, just off the top of your head, would you say that the union work's more rewarding than the paid employment?

[00:14:05] Working Hours: Even when you were being paid for doing the union work?

[00:14:08] Working Hours: Yeah. Um, do you think you would have a different attitude to that?

[00:14:30] Working Hours: Um, but the line of work, you know? Being more immediately involved in that hands-on having a positive effect, hopefully.

[00:14:48] Working Hours: Well, let me put it another way. What, what do you, what, what was more rewarding about the union work than the admin work? You know, when, when you, you know, you're, you're more likely to affect things at a larger order at your paid employment.

[00:15:03] Working Hours: Um, then you are in the union...

[00:15:06] Working Hours: ...position.

[00:15:10] Working Hours: And you can see those results?

[00:15:12] Guest: Um, I, I ran some workshops for staff at band seven and below in the North region, um, to find out what were they, what was it blocking people? What were the obstacles to getting higher? Because seven is like a cut-off point and then you become more managerial. Um, and it was fascinating. And one of the issues was that they weren't getting any training.

[00:16:08] Guest: And that all staff were entitled, if they chose to take it, to a minimum three days training every year, which is not a lot...

[00:16:18] Guest: ...but it's enough to do a couple of courses, a two day and a one day or three dayer, and there are a lot of courses that are that sort of length. I looked at the length of the courses that we run and sort of tried to pitch it in such a way that it wouldn't be well, we can't give them all a week or, and, um, both those changes were made to the contracts with a view to rolling it out, across NHS England, if it's successful.

[00:16:51] Working Hours: Do you think a lot of the time it's just, you know, not, not so much malice and incompetence just lack of ideas?

[00:17:05] Working Hours: Mmm, silo working.

[00:17:20] Guest: Um, you eventually get that approval. You got to put it on the system and the system says that's not a recognized number because the two systems haven't been synched, it's not automatic. So then you got to the second team and say, we need you to upload this, oh, we're not doing an upload this week and... and then when that gets uploaded and you finally manage to put your position up, then there's another issue that comes up.

[00:18:02] Working Hours: Monolithic?

[00:18:05] Guest: There are no interconnecting links between all of these blocks.

[00:18:22] Guest: No, we were providing software. So we were the ones going out and saying...

[00:18:27] Guest: We were yeah. We were the...I, I mean, I did work on uh, one program that was for hospitals and we sold it into [BLANKED] but there's never any discussion from [BLANKED] whether this will talk to anybody else's systems or whether in fact our system would talk to any of their other systems and they don't. So then you're paying hand over fist to get other things that you need in order to make things work properly. Nobody has stepped back and done a massive overview. What systems is the NHS using?

[00:19:19] Guest: And it's a mammoth task and nobody has the time, the money or the inclination to do it because any money we get should be used for patients. But we're wasting billions.

[00:19:37] Guest: Sure. Yeah. And if it was also used to buy a shit hot IT infrastructure, they would save so much money and time.

[00:20:05] Working Hours: Um, so I'll try and bring it back to the work side of things. So from, from that IT experience, what, what were the sort of issues there? Was that just market issues in the way that businesses were raising and falling or being acquired or were the things that were inherent in that kind of sector or what, what was that like?

[00:20:40] Guest: Yep.

[00:20:42] Guest: Yep.

[00:20:43] Guest: Oh yeah. Both sides of it. Yeah. I was, I, I learned COBOL at college so obviously, year 2000 that was big. Um, yeah, I was in IT from the late eighties.

[00:20:57] Guest: So I was coding initially. Yeah. Um, and towards the end training programmers and systems engineers, because I found, I loved training, inadvertently.

[00:21:40] Guest: Um, and would be looking over my shoulder to see where the teacher was. You know, it didn't change throughout my time there. And I think companies got greedy, they were manufacturing things and selling them at ridiculous prices. When it didn't take anything like the resource to develop and code, um, that warranted the amounts, they were charging.

[00:22:26] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:22:27] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:22:50] Guest: And so yeah, greed, money.

[00:22:59] Guest: Yes.

[00:23:01] Guest: Yes.

[00:23:08] Guest: No. No they didn't

[00:23:10] Guest: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:18] Guest: And we need it doing quicker.

[00:23:23] Guest: Yeah. Now.

[00:23:27] Guest: You are.

[00:23:47] Guest: It was young posh boys. Yeah. 90% of the time. Yeah. I mean, you did meet other people.

[00:23:52] Guest: Um,

[00:23:56] Guest: Yes.

[00:23:57] Guest: Yes, absolutely. And they were the people who would be the ones who had the desk in the corner.

[00:24:02] Guest: And just had their head down and nobody really spoke to them or interacted with them or

[00:24:08] Guest: Yeah. Yeah. And people would forget that we're there, you know, everything would go on around them.

[00:24:22] Working Hours: Um, okay, so you... That, that's brought up an interesting question for me. But like, pre yuppie did, did that sort of fashionable entrepreneur type exist? Like, because you know, that, I mean that's the same guy, the guy who's like working in IT roundabout, the dot com bubble.

[00:25:05] Guest: Yeah. No. It didn't really. No. It really didn't. Um, again, it was money and what was being promoted at the time, youth. It was loads of money culture. It was Margaret Thatcher, you know, it was get out there. You can be a dot com billionaire, it was obviously huge around that time and yeah, everybody thought they could.

[00:25:54] Working Hours: It's sort of...It's kind of like a recuperation of, um, working class crime.

[00:26:04] Working Hours: It's all right. You're all legit now. You can destroy anything just wear some flashy outfits.

[00:26:10] Working Hours: Um, okay. Um, so I mean, has that been your... So has it been admin and IT? Have you worked in any other sort of industries?

[00:26:23] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:26:26] Working Hours: How do you feel about the training side of things? Uh, like, is that better or worse than the union side, better or worse than any other part of it. Is it, is it something that you enjoy?

[00:27:05] Working Hours: Yeah. But then you don't... but... I suppose you get to see those sort of instant reactions, but you don't really get to see that, the learning necessarily. The effects of the learning...

[00:27:18] Working Hours: ... the outcome of that. Some people, because I don't know, I've been on training courses where, you know, you're like, wow, that was really good. I learned so much. And then you go out and you don't use any of it

[00:27:28] Working Hours: It's not useful to you at all.

[00:27:41] Guest: So I think if you've had somebody in a training session and they've gone away thinking, yeah, that was good, and even though they may not ever look at it again or use it again. For a start, you've probably changed their attitude, a little towards training and it will make them more likely to go on more training, in the hope that they'll have another day, where they come out and say, that was really good. I enjoyed that.

[00:28:02] Guest: Positive. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and actually to get people talking and communicating what I do notice, certainly from where I've done facilitation for new line managers and run a few training sessions, um, you see those people making contacts. The people who you have in your classroom make contacts and you can see relationships developing and you do see those go on.

[00:28:31] Guest: Yes.

[00:28:33] Guest: Yes.

[00:28:35] Guest: Yeah, exactly. And they're learning a bit about what everybody else does in the organization. So you know that that's also for me

[00:28:44] Guest: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that in itself is also rewarding because you you're facilitating people, building networks and creating friendships and getting colleagues to be colleagues and not just somebody they happened to sit in the same building with.

[00:29:11] Guest: No. No,

[00:29:13] Guest: No, no, no. I, um, at 11 was absolutely aceing everything. Um, got a hundred percent for both math and English in my 11 plus, I got a scholarship to not the very local girls high school, but the one in Wakefield. So we were living in Barnsley.

[00:29:54] Guest: So I had to change schools. Although it would have been sensible just to say, it's no further just get the bus from Leeds to Wakefield instead of Barnsley to Wakefield. But anyway..., and I ended up going to a school that had been a boy's school and a girl's school and it was the year they mixed and it was the second year of high school. So trying to fit in was not the easiest. I'd come from, "oh, Wakefield girls, high school" to a school that was not rough, but not

[00:30:28] Guest: Yeah. That and the fact that you had the boys and girls mixing for the first time they were in their little packs and they were doing their, you know? So it, yeah, it was very hard. And in fact, the way I survived school was through gift of the gab and people skills, I guess again, even then.

[00:31:12] Guest: I applied to Jacob Kramer, art school, uh, Leeds College of Art and Design now. And they offered me a place and my best friend at school whose home life was equally abysmal was also offered a place. So I took the letter home. I hadn't told mum I'd applied. Took it home and said, I'd been offered a place and she laughed in my face and said, don't be ridiculous.

[00:31:49] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:32:09] Guest: They were interesting to me, you know, Shakespeare. Wow. This is amazing. You know? Different language. I've got to really think about this. So that thirst for knowledge and learning was, you know, still there despite everything else. So yeah. Left with English and English. And then, after I'd had the girls, when they started coming home from school with maths that I just didn't recognize, you know. I had a slide rule in a log book and, and they started bringing this maths home and I was thinking, I don't know what this is. I can't help them.

[00:33:07] Guest: I should have done just pure maths because didn't get it. Bummed out of that. Failed my economics A level. Um, so sacked that off for a bit. Applied to go to our local college, to do a degree in English. Didn't even get an interview for that. So then applied to the Open University. Um, and did Psychology took the BSc route rather than the BA route.

[00:33:39] Working Hours: Why did you switch from English to Psychology?

[00:33:49] Guest: Yeah. Yeah. And books and...

[00:33:50] Guest: Yeah. Yeah. And it's books, you know?

[00:33:55] Guest: No, I'd never thought about psychology. Um, but I had a friend who we had children of the same age and she started doing a psychology degree and because I have that inquiring mind I would ask her about it a lot, a lot. And she would tell me what she was doing and it sounded fantastic. So I thought I'll give that a go. And I went for the BSC route because I still believe that it's regarded more highly than a BA because it's considered to be

[00:34:25] Guest: Science, real subject.

[00:34:30] Working Hours: So was that just the psychology BSc?

[00:34:59] Guest: I still think it's the most fascinating subject I've come across yet. Love it! Absolutely love it. And of course, then you've got a degree, so you can apply to places like, um, so you know, it opened doors and I loved every minute of it. And then I went after that, I took a couple of years off and missed it so much I then did a couple of years of English.

[00:35:32] Guest: So I didn't want to think, I've started reading this book, I have to finish, God this book's boring I've got to finish it. Oh my God. I've only got so far through. I've got to finish it. I wanted to be able to go, actually, no. I'm putting it down. And it's only recently that I've started making that connection that I've always had with music. If I listen to something I don't like, I turn it off. So why is a book any different?

[00:36:18] Guest: Yeah, you can.

[00:36:36] Guest: And I think now... I also, I do think especially the older I'm getting. There is music out there. There are books out there that I will never find that would change my life.

[00:37:09] Working Hours: Um, okay. I'm going to bring them back to work.

[00:37:32] Guest: It's a tricky one because there is so many things that I really like doing, and I'm not sure you could combine them all in one job.

[00:37:50] Guest: Okay I get that.

[00:37:54] Guest: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:38:13] Guest: Yeah.

[00:38:17] Working Hours: So, I mean, you know, your perfect job could be something like that.

[00:38:31] Guest: Yeah. Well, I guess I would want to have a job where I'm still learning.

[00:38:39] Guest: So I do love teaching, but when I was teaching IT doing the same course to programmers every week it gets a bit repetitive.

[00:39:06] Guest: I want to make a difference. If I see something's wrong, I want to be able to at least discuss it with somebody and be in a position to say, I think we should do this. You think we should do that? Actually, yes, you persuaded me. I think that's a good idea. You're still part of something happening. It doesn't have to be your idea all the time, but you do have to get a conversation going and be part of the decision making for me to feel I'm making a difference.

[00:39:31] Working Hours: Okay That's all... so this is another sort of work place, um, buzz word, um, engagement. I mean, like from the, the shape of our discussion, it seems to me, you know, it doesn't matter where you're working you're always engaged with the work.

[00:39:50] Working Hours: Which... well you say that as though like, yeah, of course I am. But, um, you could easily not be, you know, like you're hanging with the kids from the wrong side of the track. Like, you could be very much of an attitude of, like, you know, very author, anti-authoritarian.

[00:40:04] Working Hours: But I suppose that, that... is it fair to say that, that's there, but it kind of comes out of let's negotiate rather than, you know, like, I'm taking a position of, I'm against you, but I'm going to have, but I'm going to discuss it with you. Rather than, I'm against you and we're not talking and you cross this line and you die.

[00:40:54] Guest: You can't be objective. Um, so in order to change anything, I'm interested. Why do you feel that way? What is it that makes you feel that way? I can tell you why I feel the way I do. I can explain it. I can give you the rationale behind it. I can tell you what I think the benefits are, but I want to know yours and clearly you believe them.

[00:41:28] Working Hours: Yeah. Yeah. That's just background noise in the house because we're recording in the house where you've got two sick people, unfortunately. And that's not counting us two, who are both sick. So I'll have an excuse to cough now.

[00:41:59] Guest: Um, yeah, I mean, I was still working in IT and I went to an organization.

[00:42:06] Guest: From, from the beginning? No, we had, again, it was through a friend, somebody I knew who, uh, worked for IBM and we used to play bridge together and, um, liked a lot of the same sorts of puzzles.

[00:42:39] Working Hours: So you were kind of determined to do something.

[00:42:45] Working Hours: So that, so that got you a job, and then that, that allowed you to actually do the study? Were you having to pay for the OU?

[00:42:54] Working Hours: For full fees?

[00:42:57] Working Hours: Um, but it's, I don't know, obviously it was a lot cheaper then but

[00:43:15] Working Hours: Yeah.

[00:43:17] Working Hours: Not huge money.

[00:43:26] Working Hours: Yeah. And those wages drove up other wages.

[00:43:30] Working Hours: Um. So how am I doing for time? 43 minutes. And so, um, is there anything I should touch on?

[00:44:03] Working Hours: Right.

[00:44:14] Guest: Um, I learned to be a swimming teacher and then as the kids got better at swimming, I learned to be a coach, so I didn't teach them, but I taught classes alongside them. So I was always bringing in some revenue, um, in one way or another. Um, I enjoyed singing. I took some singing lessons and I did jingles for the local radio stations.

[00:44:39] Working Hours: Engaged.

[00:44:46] Working Hours: Well, I mean, you'll have a perspective on this because you know, you've done training where you've worked from the union side, you know, you've got enough work experience. Like what do you think?

[00:45:23] Working Hours: So there's a, there's a part within me that automatically wants to resist it and go, no it's all evil, but you know, when you put your sensible head on and like, well, you're in an organization that's trying to do something. And the best ways to do that is if we're all on the same page and we're working together, not like in a monolithic mindless, you know, with, with dissent, with ideas, with discussion, but working towards the same goal. Um, I mean, that's sort of a no brainer to me of like, yeah, if I'm in a place, I should be on board with what they're trying to do.

[00:45:58] Working Hours: Uh, but, and they should be working towards having me on board and keeping me on board. Right. And part of that I think is like, for me, is listening to your contributions and...

[00:46:12] Working Hours: ...what you can add. What do you think on that front?

[00:46:56] Guest: You know, let's get together with our staff twice a year and let's talk about, you know, how are they getting on? What's, what's the work that they're doing? Is there anything they particularly like to do? Is there anything that they really don't like so much?

[00:47:20] Working Hours: Do you think that's driven... Do you think that's imposed in a top-down way or do you think it's, do you think it's something that's demanded from the workforce?

[00:47:57] Guest: I haven't had one for 18 months. So then the member of staff is thinking, well, I know you're supposed to do that, but clearly I'm not worth it. You're not that bothered. And what it's doing is causing people to disengage more rather than engage. So for me, the problems lie in, we've got all these great ideas and they're not implemented or not implemented correctly.

[00:48:47] Guest: No feedback, no discussion. What's, why, w, what do you think is wrong in this area? Why you're upset about these things? Time isn't made available. So the staff then think, well, you're not listening to me anyway, so why would I say anything? I'm going to look for a job somewhere else where they apparently do, do that sort of thing.

[00:49:21] Working Hours: Is that, is that just something that's naturally part of that problem?

[00:49:32] Working Hours: I mean, because I would say...

[00:49:33] Working Hours: Well, well yeah, well, I would say it's largely a resource issue.

[00:49:37] Working Hours: Because if you've got the, if you've got the space for it, the space and the resources for it, then you, you can do it. You can...

[00:49:46] Working Hours: ...do it properly and you can do it appropriately. Um, it's just, it's kind of, it it's to be seen to be, isn't it?

[00:49:56] Working Hours: It's like, well, we've done this. Well, we did this whole exercise. Look, here's our project report on it.

[00:50:05] Working Hours: And what was the change? And what was the follow up?

[00:50:06] Working Hours: We don't know. And, uh, we don't know.

[00:50:11] Working Hours: No. You said, you said do this, so we did it. So it's done now.

[00:50:17] Guest: Cross it off your to do list. Yeah.

[00:50:32] Working Hours: And like to me, um, I, I view jobs very much like relationships because they are relationships. Okay, they're relationships with a lot of, um, you know, you embed resentment against your employer, you know? There are things that you don't say to each other and that you hold back and opinions that you don't put out into the open and then like, you know, it can be going really great and you know, you're both feeling really good for a long time.

[00:51:07] Guest: Yep. Yep.

[00:51:15] Guest: Or the employer who's desperate to get somebody in and nobody's turned up so...

[00:51:21] Guest: You get the job because you're the only one who came to the interview

[00:51:38] Guest: Yep. Yep.

[00:51:41] Guest: Yeah, I think, I think we need to be looking at a far younger age and across the spectrum of kids at, these are the things you can do. It's like you were saying about engaging is because I had a grandfather who was just fascinating and fascinated by everything and it rubbed off...

[00:52:03] Guest: .... hugely.

[00:52:10] Guest: Mhm.

[00:52:19] Guest: Yep. Yeah.

[00:52:28] Guest: Yep. Yeah.

[00:52:30] Guest: Let's make it happen.

[00:52:32] Working Hours: I want to make a rocket. Okay. Well, we're going to make the rocket for this kid this week. So we're all going to find out how to do that. What are we going to make it out of? Well, where do we get materials from? Where do those materials come from? What's the benefit of using it? You know, like that you learn through doing. That, that's how you learn in the real world when you're working.

[00:52:57] Guest: Better find out somehow

[00:53:00] Working Hours: That's more usual.

[00:53:03] Working Hours: Well, we're trained to be told

[00:53:06] Working Hours: Yeah. Well and what to do and what to do next. Here's your social instruction. Standby.

[00:53:13] Working Hours: Until we need you.

[00:53:24] Working Hours: I do, but I also think we need to be telling them that they can't as well.

[00:53:32] Working Hours: You need to be realistic.

[00:53:33] Working Hours: Well you can't be anything,

[00:53:36] Guest: You can be anything from this to this. Not, you can be anything, but as children, you know, as the next generation, you can be anything from here to here.

[00:54:02] Guest: And that needs to go.

[00:54:15] Working Hours: Or a bit of both?

[00:54:17] Working Hours: Neither.

[00:54:46] Guest: I wouldn't want to not be doing anything anyway. So there would be classes I could go to that I can't go to now. If we get a Labour government, I'll be able to go and get my PhD and not have to pay for it. So there's all those. I want to carry on learning. I want to carry on living. I don't. It depends how you define retirement.

[00:55:12] Working Hours: So, um, I mean you've when, when you have the kids, there must've been points where you couldn't work during that?

[00:55:25] Working Hours: But, I would.... So I would assume that you were working the whole rest of the time?

[00:55:31] Working Hours: So...

[00:55:57] Guest: It's the fact that...

[00:56:02] Working Hours: It's fine.

[00:56:15] Guest: So it's about wanting to get up and go out and do. And that's not to say that when I'm not working, I might not spend a week, two weeks at home and not go out and do stuff. But I'm still reading or I'm listening to music or I'm looking for new music or...

[00:56:33] Guest: So,

[00:56:34] Guest: Yeah, I need to continue. I'm curious. I want to know as much as I can.

[00:57:07] Working Hours: Uh, some of the interviews are still being cleared. I want to get out what I can as soon as possible.

[00:57:33] Working Hours: Now, given that we are going through Brexit, climate collapse, global limits of productivity and profit and now a global pandemic, it seems to me to be more timely than ever for us to be thinking about what work can be, who it is for? Why we do it and how it should be performed and if and how it should be remunerated.

[00:58:06] Working Hours: So then, if you're in Leeds and you have an opinion on work, whether you're employed or not, I'm interested in your view.

[00:58:28] Working Hours: So like share, subscribe and pay on Patreon, donate on Ko-Fi, socialise safely.