FāVS News reporter and editor Cassy Benefield joined Luke and Aaron Hedge on the pod this week to talk about her story about World Relief Spokane, which partly focused on the story of Ukrainian immigrant Julie Horbenko, who thinks President Donald Trump might, with the flick of a pen, make it illegal for her to be here.

Refugees in Spokane at risk as World Relief navigates changing U.S. policies

Hey, it's Aaron.

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This week on The Pod, Cassie Benefield,

a reporter and editor with our partner

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Faves News, joined Luke and me to discuss

Cassie's story this week about federal

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funding cuts to local refugee resettlement

programs like World Relief Spokane.

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This is free range, a co

production of KYRS and Range Media.

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I'm your host, Luke Baumgart, and I'm

joined today by my colleague, Aaron Hedge.

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How you doing, Aaron?

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I'm here.

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I'm ready to go.

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I feel like that's about as

about as well as we can do these

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days, being present and upright.

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I feel good being, being

present and upright, I woke

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up this morning, it was good.

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I do too.

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Also with us today is Cassie Benefield,

an editor and reporter with Faves

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News, who wrote in last week about

how World Relief Spokane is operating

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after the federal government shut off

the spigot of resources that have been

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provided to immigrant communities.

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They help.

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Thanks for joining us, Cassie.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, so I guess we

can just dive right in.

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So Cassie, you published

this story on, on Sunday.

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Just talking about how World

Release Spokane is your story

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focuses on that organization.

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Is dealing with, lack of resources

as Trump has come in and basically

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cut off a lot of resources

for immigrant communities.

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And your story kind of begins,

I just wanted to start with some

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humanity your story begins with

a woman named Julie Horbanko.

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I hope I'm saying that right.

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She's a, she's a Ukrainian immigrant

who works for World Relief Spokane.

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She worries that her immigration

status could be revoked at any moment.

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Can you tell us a little bit about Julie

and what she does for World Relief and

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what's happening with her situation?

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So, Julie Horbanko Her she's Ukrainian,

and she and her mother came in on the,

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the Uniting the Ukraine, Uniting with

Ukraine program, I think that's what

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it's called, and it was under the Biden

administration, and yeah, Uniting for

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Ukraine, and what that did is it gave

Ukrainians who were, didn't have a

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home because of the, of their, of their

homes in Ukraine to come and live here.

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And it was under what they call

a humanitarian parole program.

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And I think it was a two,

it's a two year program.

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And they have to reapply.

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And hold on.

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And she actually did reapply and

got it renewed for two years.

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Some of the refugees under this

parole program actually well, Try to

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get the temporary protective status.

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It's just this whole there's just lots

of different administration ways of

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becoming a refugee and working your way

to becoming a Citizen yeah, I'm familiar

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with this I've been reporting on some

some Haitian refugees and they can come in

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under humanitarian parole and then apply

for this temporary protective status And

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my understanding from your reporting on

Haiti is that the temporary protective

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status is granted country by country.

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And so Haitians had it and so that's

why people who had come over from

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Haiti were able to apply for it.

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So is there a temporary

protected status for Ukraine?

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It's basically for for countries that

Where the conditions are very unsafe.

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And I'm not sure

specifically about Ukraine.

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Is TPS in place for Ukraine?

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I have, I have no idea.

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I haven't got that far

in my, In your reporting.

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Yeah, my studying of it.

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I just know that that's how they

were, they were invited here.

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I guess that's a good

way of looking at it.

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So she and her mother were invited here.

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And this program, It made it

very easy to come over because

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all they needed was a sponsor.

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And so she had, her godfather was living

here in Spokane and he was their sponsor.

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And it's like a reference, like

you would have at, your job,

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this person's vouching for you.

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Okay.

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This is a really good point.

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I'm glad you brought up the you haven't

gotten to whether or not Ukraine is

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part of the TPS program or not yet.

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And I see people online pushing

back against some of the reporting

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we've done about the reasons

people are, who are in the U.

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S.

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right now, either, either documented

or undocumented, are getting picked up.

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There's this pedantry online, who

are like, well, it's a humanitarian

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parole, which means it can be revoked

at any time, blah, blah, blah.

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And that's true.

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Or, that may or may not be true, it's

often these rules are pretty opaque

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and what's definitely true is there are

some fundamental rights that America

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is afforded, or you're afforded just

by setting foot in American soil

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whether or not you're a citizen or not,

process is still in effect, we, you

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were in the middle of writing a story

about or you, you just also published

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a story, Hedge, about the, the two

men who were taken into custody after

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immigration officials broke out the

window without a warrant and stuff.

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And, and the, the, the comments on

Reddit, which is one of the less toxic

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less toxic social media platforms,

were like, well, if you've even been

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accused of a crime, you can be kicked

out of the country, and that's probably

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facially true in some situations, and

maybe even most situations, but you

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can't the Fourth Amendment this is

a constitutional protection against

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illegal search and seizure that is

protecting anybody who's on social media.

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U.

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S.

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soil, they may have been, those men may or

may not have been eligible for expulsion

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but what nobody is eligible for is a

cop coming up to your car window without

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a, without a warrant and breaking out

a window and taking you into custody.

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That's regardless of who you are

that is illegal in this country.

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And the other, yes, and then the

other thing that I've been thinking

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about on this topic as well is.

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One I've realized is the United

States, at least it used to be whatever

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you think of the United States as a

whole, but this particular part of

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our country is quite compassionate

to be able to, to be able to afford

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this, to do this for other countries.

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I'm not saying other countries

don't do this either, but it just,

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it's opened my awareness to that,

the compassion of this program.

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And the other thing is, too, when you sign

a contract, you don't break the contract.

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And so, with you her name is actually

Yulia, but she goes by Julie, and here.

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And so she, she's have, she has a

renewal and so it's like if, if the

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government has entered it, to your

point, the government has entered into

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a contract with her saying you can be

here for the next two years, right?

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And so that, but that can

be revoked just like that.

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And then you have the, the refugee

resettlement agencies were in contract.

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Yeah.

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I mean, people are having, these agencies

are having to pay, pay what they were

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supposed to get from the government.

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If, on a loan, hoping that the

government's going to repay them.

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Yeah.

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I mean, to be honest, we can go, we

can go political a little bit here.

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Yeah.

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As a guest, you're allowed to

go as political as you want.

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We have to watch ourselves

a little bit, but.

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Well, I just feel that's how

Trump runs his companies.

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He doesn't pay his bills.

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And he just came in and

he's doing the same thing.

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Well, and one of the things, sorry,

one of the things that I think

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about a lot is the, as journalists,

we like to live in the nuance.

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It's our jobs to understand all these

little details, all these little minutiae.

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But it's difficult.

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And it is very difficult.

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But one of the things that I've noticed

is That the, when a, a good faith

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person in general, which in my opinion

is most journalists that I've come

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in contact with, the nuances there,

and you, you study all of that in the

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point, the intention behind it is.

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Precision of language, greater

understanding, greater clarity.

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One of the things that I've

noticed is, back to the pedant

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class, the pundit class, and just

social media keyboard warriors.

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They're using nuance.

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To just flood the zone with oh, it's

this person was probably a per whatever.

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It's like They're using the the complexity

to create Chaos or almost, clouds of

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either not necessarily misinformation,

but just uncertainty around What's

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actually true about our laws?

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What's true about these

other things to justify?

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And it feels like we're experiencing

a lack of compassion, a lack of

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compassion, but also messaging creep

around the, this is just, this is

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just going to be dangerous criminals,

dangerous criminals, dangerous criminals,

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dangerous criminals, a thousand percent.

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And now, now it's well, they're,

they've overstayed their visa.

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Is that, wait, is that, because in, in U.

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S.

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law enforcement, at least, there's a

distinction between violent and non

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violent crimes, or dangerous and,

and so dangerous criminals, to me,

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suggests violent crimes have been

committed, not something like a civil

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offense, like overstaying your visa.

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So there's also this message creep and

so it's got to be tough to be a reporter

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in this in this, we're all in, I guess,

in this time, I guess is my point.

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And so, I think we want to still live

in the nuances, reporters, right?

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Because we still, we don't want

to change the way we do our work.

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But I also think, and one of the reasons

I'm fascinated to be talking to two

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religion reporters here is, I don't.

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I can only, I can maybe think on one

hand the times that morality or what

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is the moral thing to do has come up

in newsroom conversations I've been in

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over the years, but it really feels like

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when we're talking about our stories,

Hedge, I often feel like we want

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to get into the nuance, but when

it feels like People are trying to

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twist nuance, twist detail, twist

complexity to make bad faith arguments.

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Rather than, as a dude who has a degree

in philosophy, I'm like thinking about

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the, answering these, these tactics as

though they're good faith arguments.

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I think it's also okay for us as

journalists to say, Or, and I want to

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maybe pose it to you this is something

I've gotten more comfortable with as

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the, as the information ecosystem has

gotten more and more toxic, because

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it's just being like, no, this,

there's actually a moral case here.

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And whatever else this person did, we

have a constitution and the constitute,

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and if It doesn't mean that if they

would have done this the right way, he,

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this, the people you wrote about, Hedge,

might have been out of the country in

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a couple months after this, but we're

dangerously close to this precipice

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of where if, if people who are here

illegally and maybe, or legally, but maybe

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overstayed or people who, where contracts

are being broken and people, and, and

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willy nilly statuses are being revoked.

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That's the beginning of a slide to,

what other, what other civil rights can

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we take away, is what it feels like.

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I think, all of that pedantry

that you talk about, the little

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minutiae that people bring up to

push back is designed to distract

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from the core issue, which is like,

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Whether you're, no matter, no matter

how you're here you still have

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constitutionally protected rights,

and the federal government is not

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allowed, I mean, they're doing

it, but they're not allowed to.

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They shouldn't be allowed to, yeah.

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Break the, or violate those rights, and,

there's, obviously there's the really

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scary instances where, agents who are in

questionable uniforms breaking through

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windows, but there's also like, I think,

I think there's a bigger landscape,

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which it, that, that Julie fits into,

where it's we're not honoring the, the

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commitments that we've made as a country.

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And so, can you talk about, I was, this,

this actually brings me to a question

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I was going to ask a little later on.

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So, really early, as you reported in

your story, there were, there were

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two executive orders that came down

from the Trump administration, right

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at the start, concerning humanitarian,

or surrounding humanitarian And I was

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hoping that you could talk just to

like, set the table a little bit like,

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what were those orders and what is like

the latest news on those orders and

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the kind of the rhetoric around them?

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And how is it, how does

that fit into Julie's story?

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I know that like you, you wrote that

Julie feels like President Trump could.

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Send her out of the country at any moment.

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Yeah, it was interesting the way she said

it when I was Interviewing her it it just

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was like we're not used to I don't think

as Americans used to arbitrary decisions

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Yeah, we are just not interested.

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We're not used to that but other people

in other countries are a decision

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can just be so arbitrary If he just

signs, if he just signs a document

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that we're illegal, then we're illegal,

just like that, and I'm like, but

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that's, that's not how we do things.

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So, the very first week, and it's all

surrounding that, protect our borders

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or secure borders, these, These refugee

things excuse me, executive orders.

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Right.

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But the two, the two in the first week, I

just concentrated on two because there's

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actually I think there was a slew of them.

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Yeah, there was a, yeah, there's

several and they don't, they do

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different things, but these two I

just focused on because they really

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do affect world relief in our, in our

town as well as international rescue.

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Is that right?

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International Rescue Committee?

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Yeah.

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IRC here.

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We should just say, for people that

haven't read the story, these are,

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these are organizations that are, that

get Paid, they're private nonprofits,

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but they are funded by the federal

government to take refugees that are here

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legally through governmental programs.

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These are not questionably

documented or undocumented people.

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Everything people in order to get

reimbursed for this, these contracts,

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you have to demonstrate that you've

helped people who are here legally.

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So under no definition of

what's going on, are those, are

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those specific organizations?

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They aren't even working with

potentially undocumented people,

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these are people who are all here.

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No, they're, they're, yeah,

from what I understand in lots

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of reporting, these are heavily

vetted people coming to our nation.

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So the first, the first one was

on January 20th, the suspension of

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the refugee resettlement program.

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The way that Christy Armstrong was

sharing it with me, it was like.

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Christy Armstrong is the director of

WRS, yeah, of World Relief Spokane.

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Yeah, and so she, she remembers they were

waiting to meet people at the airport.

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And then, on January 20th, that stopped.

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And then, so that, that, that was stopped.

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But then it went further, and it

was not only was it stopped, like

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suspended, The flights were cancelled.

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And there were people with tickets in

hand, according to Christy Armstrong.

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And so, just, it's just gutting just

to feel, I mean, as a journalist,

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you do feel, you walk alongside.

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Oh, for sure.

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And the emotion of it, hopefully it

helps you tell a better story as well.

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Right.

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And then but, Yeah, and so that was the

first order, and that was on day one.

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And then on February

25th, no, that's not it.

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Oh, that, there is something that

happened good on February 25th,

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so, that we need to talk about.

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But I can't remember the other one.

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Did I, where is that one?

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On January 24th, the stop

work order from the U.

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S.

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Department of State.

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Oh, and that had to do with the money.

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All that money stopped.

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So that money is so important for

these refugees when they come here.

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Again, Christy Armstrong gave me a story.

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She wasn't 100 percent certain how

many people were in the family.

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She just said seven.

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A seven member family

had arrived from Sudan.

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It could have been nine member.

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And they arrived with nothing but

the clothes on their backs, two

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grocery sized bags full of belongings.

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Yeah.

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I mean, that's Their life right

there in those two grocery sized

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bags, and wearing flip flops, and

it's in the middle of January.

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And so each member of the household

gets, it's like a welfare, and it's a

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What do you call that security net to

it provide a comfort to help them in the

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first 90 days and I think the IRC Here

in the community can extend that kind of

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support through what their funds can do

I don't know if they're fun those funds

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come from With federal government or not.

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But Yeah, so it's just a very helpful

thing while they're learning the language,

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getting settled in If we're talking about

people coming from Sudan, it might be just

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like living through their first snowfall.

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Yeah, in flip flops.

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You just can imagine it.

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This money is for like

very basic needs, right?

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Yeah.

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Clothing, rent, food, and transportation.

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So just like The basic things you

need to go about your life place.

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I mean, they're gonna

have to get new clothes.

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Yeah.

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So there's like the pass

through funding that goes to

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the, directly to the families.

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I also, but they coordinate it.

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Yeah.

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And so these families, it's these are,

these are families that these, these

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agencies, nonprofits, are supporting.

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Yeah.

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And all of a sudden you have to

tell them like, they, they've been

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getting this money for two weeks.

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Or they, or they, I think it's,

it is, let's say it's monthly.

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I can't remember.

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I think it's monthly.

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Mm-hmm . I don't think

I put that in there.

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They get disbursements.

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Yeah.

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So they get this money and then they're

depending on it, planning on it.

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And then you as your agency, it's

like they're your, your children

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and you're saying you're not

gonna get that money anymore.

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Yeah.

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And then they have to scramble Yeah.

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To get that money.

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And so churches, I don't know, they,

they weren't giving me numbers,

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but the, you have to, you have

to use your donations for that.

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So it's like finding,

finding the money to, yeah.

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Pay.

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These are largely, a lot of these are

reimbursement programs too, so the

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agencies have probably incurred costs and

then they usually get reimbursed by the

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government as well, or in a normal time.

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So, or is that, is that

the way those work?

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I have, I don't know the

details quite yet on that stuff.

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It's just this, I just know the,

probably the macro, but I have

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a macro understanding of that.

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Got it.

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Alright, we're going to take a

break for station ID and some

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promos and we will be right back.

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All right, we're back

with Cassie Benefield.

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Yeah well.

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So, I'm curious, so I think one of the big

things that's happening in the news, at

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least very recently, is, President Trump

and Vice President Vance had a meeting in

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the Oval Office with Ukrainian President

Volodymyr Zelensky, and it didn't go well.

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They basically But it made great TV.

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Well, that's, I mean, that was

probably the best thing about it.

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The cold open for Saturday Night Live.

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Yeah.

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Basically.

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Basically, if you haven't seen the videos,

basically what happened was Trump and

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Vance basically, they had, they had a very

confront, yeah, yeah, it was like, they

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bullied him into, put him in his place,

they felt like they had to put him in

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his place, they didn't, yeah, they didn't

say thank you one time since you've been

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here, yeah, yeah, they felt like he wasn't

grateful enough for the things that the

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United States had provided to Ukraine.

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So that's like.

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The newsy news, but how did, like, how

did you come to report on this story?

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Was it, was it that or was

it like Did you get a tip?

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What, honestly, I didn't

even know I was going to be

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interviewing a Ukrainian immigrant.

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I just wanted to I, this was a story I

actually wanted to do around Christmas

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last year or Yeah, Christmas last year,

because I was at an event, I reported

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on an event they had put on called,

I think it's, It's a Small World, at

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Sun City Church in Spokane Valley.

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And they had, I think, her name, I,

anyway, there was a lady that was

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presenting, and she was somebody, I can't

remember if she was she came from the

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Middle East somewhere, and I, I don't

know what country, so I don't want to.

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I don't want to guess and I was

going to follow her and it was

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going to be a feature story and

then I think all this was happening.

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I can't even remember like it's just

all just the stars aligned and it was

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like, and I just asked to interview an

immigrant just to get their understanding

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and then it just happened to be

Yulia and her English is exceptional.

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So I'm sure that's

something to do with it.

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So, we have such a large

Ukrainian population here.

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And she, and she and her mom

also stayed at Thrive, the

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Thrive Center here, and loved it.

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It would help them also,

help them get on their feet.

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Yeah.

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Does she feel like she's, that

brings up curiosity, does she

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feel like she's at home here?

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That's a good question.

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I mean, she's on a temporary status

still, but like Definitely not now.

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I mean, that's that's the

feeling I got from her.

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I mean, she can't speak for her whole

community, but there is this feeling

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of how long is how long am I here?

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And then also it's it's there's a psych

psychological Feeling am I even welcome

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and then she has to talk to herself

say yes people really are nice to me

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here but then But then this other part

of America is treating me this way.

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So it's, it's, there's a

psychological back and forth as well.

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I'm on the board of Feast World Kitchen.

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And it's, that's, and actually there's,

I don't know if he's still washing

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dishes, but there's like a 17 year old

Ukrainian kid who came with his family

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right around the time the war started.

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I think right, right when the

Thrive Thrive Center opened.

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And, and he was just, was basically

like, Working, washing dishes at

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Feast to make enough money to get a

car, so we could get around Spokane.

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Very little English was actually at the

Barton School, taking language classes,

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I think, if I remember correctly.

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But like My experience of being,

part of that community and just in

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general, like there's, there is so

much, just this overwhelming welcome.

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They just got done with restaurant

week and I was there on Sunday with

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my wife for one of the final services.

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And my ISA, the co executive director,

Brought all the, there's nine chefs

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back there cooking for restaurant weeks.

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It's a little bit more elaborate

than usual and had all the chefs do

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take a bow and the entire restaurant

gave him a standing ovation.

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It's like the, it's got to feel really

disorienting like whiplash for folks in

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a community like ours where some parts

are so deeply, deeply welcoming and then

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Other parts, both this kind of abstraction

on the other side of the country in

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the form of the federal government, but

then the actual Agents of state violence

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like that's that's what cops are.

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That's that's that is like little

like Dictionary definition of

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law enforcement federal law

enforcement local law enforcement.

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It's the people who are You know deputized

To have the power of state violence and

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so I was talking to my husband about

that, it felt it's almost like these are

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like just like one grade above militia.

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Because they're like,

they're like an authority.

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Funny you say that because we,

this is stuff we can't really talk

405

about on the record because it's

stuff we're trying to run down.

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But we've been talking with a couple

different groups who have been,

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basically people are staking out.

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organizations in Spokane and because

many of the federal immigrate, ICE and

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border patrol and Homeland Security.

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They have some marked vehicles.

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They have some unmarked vehicles.

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Everybody sort of dresses like an

operator, but of course you can

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buy operator gear on the internet.

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You can buy operator gear at,

like an army army surplus store.

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There was a lot in the early days of

oh, ICE is just staking out a local

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leader's house and various people's homes.

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And in hindsight, there are some folks

we've been chatting with and we don't

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know if we're ever going to be able to

get to a story we can actually report.

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We actually don't know if those

early days, who was ICE and who

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might have just been a militia member

or somebody who's decided to walk

421

around with an AR style weapon.

422

plate carrier, no mark, no other markings

and that just to intimidate people.

423

And so, I mean, you say, I think you're,

in terms of the lived reality of a lot of

424

people, maybe I think you might be more

right than you know about like people

425

like law enforcement in, in this sort of

a capacity being one step up from militia.

426

In some ways they're

indistinguishable from militia.

427

Yeah.

428

Who might be just operating

because, they've, they've taken it

429

upon themselves to, to do citizen

patrols of brown people, largely.

430

Hm.

431

I, I did want to update, there's an update

to this, this story, after I had Oh,

432

yeah, you've done more, more reporting

on it after, after this Sunday's Well,

433

I'm, I'm, I'm working on another story

about this, the, there was, so even

434

within the, the story that I have online.

435

On February 25th, there

was a, a court in Seattle.

436

District Court Judge Jamal Whitehead

actually told, ruled that the suspension

437

needs to be suspended basically

because it breaks congressional.

438

Rules because all of this

programming comes from the Congress.

439

It's not, it's not an executive branch.

440

You're talking about the suspension

of this, this aid that this,

441

that these executive orders.

442

It's just the whole, the whole suspension

of the refugee resettlement program.

443

Yeah.

444

And so, the next day, they, the federal,

the Trump administration, Sent note

445

letters saying we cancel all of our

contracts or something like that.

446

We're no longer working with you And

that was ten organizations seven of which

447

from my understanding are faith based

And there's some irony there as well then

448

then the judge Was like, okay, now what's

going on because I just said to keep it

449

going and then Say he's he required a

status report from the administration

450

as far as what what are you do?

451

What are you doing to put back in place?

452

this Refugee resettlement program

and you have until Monday that

453

what that was this Monday.

454

So March 10th so in at Monday

night Monday evening, and I

455

read a report, it said Tuesday.

456

It looks like it was to the last minute.

457

Yeah.

458

He acknowledged that there had been

a significant, the administration

459

acknowledged there had been a

significant deterioration of functions.

460

And so in order to Well, because

they cancelled all their contracts.

461

Well, and they probably let go several

people in their own, in their own

462

organization that works with these NGOs.

463

Right.

464

And so Then the administration signaled,

I'm reading from a Religion News

465

Service article that came out yesterday.

466

It's called, it says, Faith Based

Refugee Resettlement Groups Concerned

467

About Trump Administration's New Plans.

468

And so.

469

The administration signal is going

to move forward looking for a single

470

service provider, which and their which

would mean a drastic change in how

471

the refugees would receive services

when they arrive in the United States.

472

So that means world relief and the IRC.

473

Are not going to be reinstated

unless one of them is hired as

474

a, the single service provider.

475

And so now they put a proposal out there

requesting, what do they call that?

476

A call for?

477

Yeah, a request for

proposals or something.

478

Yeah, and they expect the

process to take three months.

479

Yeah.

480

So, so what I'm working on is trying to

Get some local reaction about that so

481

it's cuz that that's gonna really shift

I mean that just changes everything.

482

It seems like the implications are

that the programs that are in place,

483

the organizations that have been doing

this work, and are in the communities,

484

are no longer going to be there,

and then we're going to have some

485

other contractor come in that doesn't

have the same relationships, and

486

going to have to rebuild everything.

487

Yeah, and so, yeah, so World Relief,

I'm speaking on behalf of them because

488

they were the ones in my story.

489

But IRC does this work as well.

490

They've been in Spokane for I

reported, didn't I say, like 32 years?

491

Yeah.

492

And they've been around

for 80 years nationally.

493

This is not like it's some program

that's just been Fly by night.

494

Yes.

495

Yeah, one of the things that I'm really

fascinated about is The, back to what

496

happens in the discourse and then the

way churches are reacting to this and

497

how they've historically done it's

fascinating to me that there are, so

498

I was raised in a pretty conservative

church in the 80s and 90s back then.

499

Refugee, a different sort of refugee

resettlement, or at least immigration, was

500

extremely popular in, among conservative

Christian fellow faiths, which was just

501

adopting kids from foreign countries.

502

I was just thinking that.

503

My, my brother was adopted

from Mexico, he, they were.

504

Three kids that got off the plane that

day when he came in from Mexico City,

505

he was born in Veracruz, but came

my dad picked him up in Mexico City.

506

The two other kids just happened

to end up going to my same church

507

in Chattaroy, Washington up north.

508

They had all got off the

plane that day and then.

509

After that, I think the trend

was shifted from Latin America to

510

the former Soviet bloc or China.

511

And Romania.

512

I mean, I have a different cousin from a

different part of the family, from another

513

relatively cons they're Presbyterian, but

relatively conservative side of my family.

514

My cousin Stanley's from Haiti, was

a refugee, probably brought over,

515

originally, from the TPS program.

516

As I've been thinking about that,

it's, and I'm not trying to get a

517

little deeper in my thinking than just

Oh, this feels like hypocrisy because

518

the political winds have changed.

519

It's I do, I would like to know if either

of you have, and then thinking also about

520

Matt Shea, who I'm sure we all know, but

Hedge has done a lot of reporting on, he's

521

He's one of the few people in, who's very

positive about President Trump, but he's

522

also not a pro Russia guy, an anti Ukraine

guy, because his wife's from Ukraine.

523

She's an immigrant from Ukraine.

524

He went to Ukraine at the beginning of the

war to try to get I wrote a story about

525

this a couple years ago, to try to get,

you his wife's from Kharkiv, but they were

526

helping evacuate an orphanage in Mariupol,

right, as the tanks were rolling up.

527

And so Are you guys seeing a shift

in the congregational communications?

528

Like at that, at the congregational level?

529

Cause I, as I was like racking my

brain for, my history inside of

530

a certain type of church, I don't

remember there being a lot of blanket.

531

immigration is bad.

532

Keep them out.

533

Kick out the illegals.

534

My dad's a Mexican American from

Central California, and I have heard

535

some of my uncles who are also Mexican

complain about immigration in general,

536

but not from a faith perspective.

537

And I still don't really see a Westboro

Baptist style, the congregation level,

538

people protesting against immigration.

539

It seems This is what I would say.

540

Yeah, I'd love to get your thoughts.

541

This is what I would say.

542

So, they're not talking about it at all.

543

So, it's the folks who believe that it's

part of their mission, which, you spoke to

544

a guy for your piece named Nathan Theory.

545

There's exceptions.

546

There's exceptions.

547

But, in general, if you're, let me

just say, the last Two churches that

548

I've attended it probably each one

for probably about 10 years each

549

That was just wasn't a topic

that came up it was Abortion sure

550

abortion came up but not refugees

551

It's really fascinating to me and I and I

wonder if and again like for I mean, for

552

that Matt Shea in Poland story, and, and

subsequently I spoke to Boris Borisov,

553

who's runs who's a pastor in, in town.

554

His current church isn't a

Slavic Slavic Christian church,

555

but he used to attend them.

556

I mean.

557

That, all of that fundraising that

happened in Spokane for Ukraine,

558

the Spokane Loves Ukraine, that

entire campaign was funded by faith

559

communities largely the Slavic Church,

but also Boris's Boris's church.

560

And so it's there has been, like,

part of that whole Christian mission

561

of charity and stuff feels like

one of the places I have, I have

562

actually a lot of critiques about.

563

Broad Christianity as, as I've lived

it in my life but one place where it's

564

always felt pretty dialed in and pretty

humanitarian has been with, whether

565

it's refugee stuff or helping, helping

people in their home countries, doing

566

mission work, going building schools

down in Mexico, building schools

567

in Africa, and those aren't always

completely without coercive practices

568

or attempts to proselytize, but Mission

work is part of the fabric of at least

569

modern Christianity as I've lived it.

570

And And that it, it always translated

into a general permissiveness, if not

571

outright like welcoming of refugees.

572

Like it seemed like, Spokane for the,

in the North, or for the Northwest is

573

a relatively churchy place compared

to places on the I 5 corridor.

574

Well, to be honest, it's not.

575

This, churched state at all.

576

I don't know about, yeah, there's

statistics that I would say that

577

it's not a very churchy area.

578

I think you're right.

579

If we were comparing ourselves to the

South, but comparing Spokane to Seattle.

580

To Seattle, yeah, for sure.

581

So, it's we have I mean, and

to your point, World Relief

582

is a faith based organization.

583

Thrive, I don't think, is, is, might

be secular, but the people that started

584

Thrive came from World Relief, so

it's like they've made a choice to

585

maybe create a secular institution

out of a faith based one, but, A lot

586

of faith based people work at IRC.

587

And again Feast World Kitchen is a

secular, a non profit that I'm on the

588

board of, but a ton of the help that

they get comes from First Presbyterian

589

Church, which is also started the

first language school in Spokane,

590

the Barton School, like 50 years ago.

591

So, like these commute they're, I guess,

my larger question, and I guess I'm just

592

rambling right now, but the reason I

started this question, Cassie, was like,

593

So, for those congregations that are

being quiet do you, are you getting

594

a sense, and maybe you want to chime

in on this too, Hedge, it's is there

595

anything percolating in these communities

to be like, no, we actually, we do

596

need to speak up, because this is

our faith that's being talked about.

597

I don't know.

598

So that's, so we had this

conversation before we went to air

599

about, my particular Christianity

right now that I'm restructuring.

600

All I can say is where I was

going which is a lovely community

601

it just was not talked about.

602

And I think a large

portion of it is the shift.

603

In the politics of what happened with the

support of Ukraine, and I wasn't really

604

tracking that very well because it just,

you track so much and you just, you can't

605

track it all, but I think I would say

the zeal for Ukraine might have waned

606

if it was there at all in some of the

more conservative churches if the news

607

News media that they are in also waned.

608

That's where, that's where I

would, that's where I would land.

609

Interesting.

610

Yeah, do you have any thoughts on that?

611

Have you chimed in to, or have you

tuned in to On Fire recently or

612

anything, Hedge, about, like, how's

How's Shea and his congregation,

613

if they are at all, navigating

this pro Ukraine, pro Trump stance?

614

Especially, especially post Zelensky,

yeah, that would be interesting.

615

That would be a good story.

616

If not, you might, you might have

something to do on Sunday, my man.

617

Check that out.

618

I'm going on Sunday.

619

Are you?

620

It'll be the first time I've attended

in A few weeks, because I've been,

621

I've been really focused on some other

stories that I've had a learning curve

622

for, but I I, I do, so, so Matt Shea

is a nuanced creature in some ways.

623

He, he like, he's very, he's

very pro Trump like full

624

throatedly endorsed him on stage.

625

Yeah.

626

At his church in front of his

congregation, said that the

627

biblical vote is a vote for Trump.

628

Oh wow.

629

And like at the pulpit.

630

Which in a, in a, maybe in a different,

or at least in my imagination

631

of America, like that would get

your tax status revoked actually.

632

That's not a thing.

633

Non profits are allowed to do,

or shouldn't be, but they do.

634

That's not really what do you call it?

635

They don't investigate that stuff.

636

That's what I was just going to say.

637

But the Johnson Amendments

are not enforced.

638

Yeah.

639

And the pastors know that, but and

Matt Shea's church is a non profit.

640

Yeah.

641

But, I would say, he's

very he's not pro Ukraine.

642

. His wife is from Ukraine.

643

He's pro.

644

I see.

645

So that's how he's slicing.

646

It's pro, like he's pro-con confessing

church, that, that type of thing.

647

Like underground Christianity in Ukraine.

648

He, he, he is very interested

in Ukrainian culture.

649

He's very anti-Russian.

650

He has a lot of commentary from

his perspective as a military

651

intelligence officer, that's,

that's what he's trained as.

652

And, and a lawyer.

653

And he has all these, he always gives

updates about the war in Ukraine,

654

where it's at and he's usually talking

about how Russia doesn't have as

655

many resources as it says it has.

656

I mean, He also believes that the Soviet

Union never actually dissolved, and

657

that 1990 1991 was a big conspiracy

theory, and that, I don't like that.

658

It's true.

659

And he sees, he sees communist

Russia, communist China as being

660

aligned with fundamental Islam.

661

He calls it the, the red green axis,

the, the communist jihadi alliance.

662

It probably, it probably fo

centers into his end times.

663

It's, yeah, yeah, okay.

664

His end time theology.

665

Well, everything.

666

And also, it also ignores the war

that Russia fought in Afghanistan

667

against fundamentalist Muslims

when the Soviet Union was in power.

668

That's, that's the great thing

about conspiracy theories.

669

That was a cover, right?

670

Oh.

671

But, that was, that was, those

were all, that was an entire

672

country full of crisis actors.

673

An entire country of crisis actors.

674

Got it.

675

Well, and I think, I think, yeah.

676

Bringing it home a little bit though he,

he does have, he does have a heart for

677

the Ukrainian people and he, he wants

Love the people, hate the government.

678

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

679

But he does not, and he, I don't, I

don't know whether he's pro Ukrainian.

680

Migration to the United States.

681

I've never heard him say anything

like that, but it worked out well for

682

his family and so far as he's married

to her, he's very, very concerned

683

about the many tens of thousands

of, this is according to him, right?

684

This is a conspiracy theory

that's pretty widely spread on the

685

right of military age Chinese men

coming across the southern border.

686

Anything, anything with anything with

brown people coming across the southern

687

border is very concerning to Matt Shea.

688

And so I think there, there is,

there is an element of racism to it.

689

I don't think, I don't think racism

is central to Matt Shea's ideology,

690

but, like, it's, it's E easy.

691

And, and he believe, he believes he, he

is, he is a full throated nationalist.

692

He says all the time, frequently

on his, on his radio show

693

that God is a nationalist.

694

Jesus is a nationalist.

695

Oh yes, they created

nations in Genesis 10.

696

And borders should be strong and people

should be kept apart from each other.

697

Like culture should be strong and he.

698

He believes in a European

culture oh my goodness.

699

That doesn't represent the

landscape of churches in Spokane.

700

No, it doesn't.

701

Yeah.

702

Or in general.

703

And so, and so to the extent that,

Cassie, you, you, you quoted Nathan

704

Thiery, who's the, he runs discipleship

and outreach for Faith Bible Church.

705

And that is a conservative church,

has a, has a John MacArthur.

706

Wing like a grace Bible church wing.

707

So very conservative, but he, he told you,

he said to stop receiving and resettling.

708

Refugees in the USA is a great tragedy.

709

And it saddens me.

710

We hope and pray that the government

will permit legal, careful refugee

711

resettlement to continue soon.

712

And so that's that's a really

compassionate Christian.

713

So there's a spectrum, right?

714

Even, even among.

715

conservative churches.

716

You say, and I think this is

like you're drawing from your own

717

experience that most of the churches

just aren't addressing it at all.

718

There's some people who are very

full throated support of immigration.

719

Some people who are, obviously like

I, I don't, I don't know what I mean.

720

I, what we would say in our

dialect is the spirit hasn't

721

moved them in that direction.

722

, right.

723

Okay.

724

Yeah.

725

So, um, and it, it I I'm very judgmental

right now, so I'm not gonna go there.

726

So I'm sorry, . I, I would, I would

say though that like the institutions.

727

The people who are controlling

the levers of power right now

728

are definitely in alignment with

the mass shade view of the world.

729

The broad Christian nationalist view.

730

I think there's two, at least two

different, I think there's more than

731

one because if you look at like your

Albert Muller, who was, is a Southern,

732

the Southern Baptist fella who's like

genius, brilliant, and he's a CPAC.

733

Huh.

734

You, which is the really conservative

political action committee.

735

And isn't that, didn't, is that where

Elon Musk did his, what's it called?

736

It's where Elon Musk did his thing when,

737

had been around for a while, but that was.

738

part of what helped like the sort of

the Christian nationalist right to rise

739

to ascendancy but not necessarily like

your, forgive me, Marjorie Taylor green.

740

There's just, there's just, there's

two kinds of cultures there.

741

But then the first CPAC

conference outside of America

742

was in Hungary for Victor Orban.

743

And that was where Sebastian

Gorka was like, so it's that was,

744

that began this intermingling of

Christianity with whether you call it.

745

Christian nationalism or not, like

hyper conservative Christianity

746

and hyper conservative nationalism

started getting together.

747

I would say it's these people okay,

so Albert Mueller, he is more this

748

moral, he wants to be like the

moral authority over government.

749

Yeah.

750

And then the Christian nationalists.

751

I want to reinvent it after

their own imagination.

752

They want to be That it's past.

753

Writing actual biblical laws, right?

754

And is that a distinction

without a difference?

755

Or, to you guys, or?

756

I, I don't know.

757

I, I, I, I'm just baffled by it all.

758

Sure.

759

But I, I would say that there's, It's oh,

I don't want to be judgmental or hurtful.

760

But it's You're so nice.

761

It's like you've got this, the Harvard.

762

You've got the Harvard, Princeton

Type and then you have the Azusa

763

Street Revival type, right?

764

Do you know what I'm saying?

765

Yeah and then you have folks like like

Doug Wilson down in Christchurch who seem

766

to do a little bit of both because they

do the Concert, you know the traditional

767

schooling which is like Harvard principles

of education They actually teach, Pete

768

Hegseth is connected to Doug Wilson.

769

Yep He, he went to a, a Doug

Wilson affiliated church.

770

He loves Doug Wilson.

771

Yeah, yeah.

772

So it does feel like there's,

there's, there's, there's different,

773

there's different tendrils in this

cause I don't think Doug Wilson

774

wants to take over the government.

775

Well, I think, I, I think,

I think what's, what's.

776

He's definitely running people for

local or encouraging his, he wants

777

to congregation Moscow, Idaho,

Moscow, not necessarily America,

778

although is this just a Yeah.

779

Is that just a, a staging for the future?

780

I think that, I think what's a

display here in this conversation

781

is it's really complicated.

782

It is like that, like the way

that churches see immigration

783

and the way that they.

784

The way that they align themselves

or don't align themselves with,

785

what's happening at the federal

level is so very complicated.

786

And then there's, I'm going to

add another complication, so

787

we have a little bit more time.

788

So, Kristen Kobez Dumais, and

she wrote Jesus and John Wayne,

789

and she's knee deep right now.

790

Yeah.

791

And she put out a post

said it could be worse.

792

And it was about the Insurrection

Act and what we could do.

793

And basically, I think she's quoting

this person called Brett Wagner.

794

I've never heard of him.

795

He he was the former professor of National

Security Decision Making at the U.

796

S.

797

Naval War College.

798

He brought up in his op ed that was in

the San Francisco Chronicle, I think.

799

She just said yeah that there are

Buildings and areas that are under

800

consideration for detention centers to

move when the immigration sites that

801

they're holding the fill up They're

already looking for new sites to move

802

the immigrants that are waiting for the

next the next I actually heard there's

803

a private prison being built in central

Washington that would, cause in Washington

804

a public prison facility would not be

allowed to, to participate with ICE.

805

So it needs to be private?

806

I'm not ready to report that out yet.

807

That's actually something I've been

meaning to shoot over to you, Hedge.

808

It seems, it's a little bit

outside our coverage area, but it's

809

obviously, it's, it's close enough.

810

Well, this, it was a Guantanamo

and then another one.

811

Former Leavenworth Detention Center.

812

Yep.

813

Located near Kansas City, Missouri.

814

And so And Leavenworth is a

prison that is notori Yes.

815

It was like so notoriously

dangerous they stopped using it.

816

So we're putting people in Basically,

effectively a concentration

817

camp in, in Guantanamo Bay.

818

And then a, a federal facility

that was decommissioned because of

819

how dangerous and brutal it was.

820

And it's not like we

haven't done it before.

821

Hmm.

822

Right.

823

With the German camps during World War II.

824

Yep.

825

Man, we only have two minutes left.

826

We should probably wrap it up here.

827

Real quickly, in two minutes, what's

One of the things I've been fascinated

828

about with, I feel like there are

versions, there's a microcosm of

829

Spokane, of all these different

tendencies on the Christian right.

830

What's going on with are

there trad cats in Spokane?

831

Is the is the, is the sort of

monarchist Catholic thing that's

832

happening in a lot of national stuff?

833

You know who you need to

talk to is Joan Braun.

834

Okay, I will talk to

Joan Braun about that.

835

Joan's my buddy.

836

Maybe we'll have Joan Braun to talk

about traditional Catholics in Spokane.

837

She's that, that's more her, her area.

838

There's definitely some trad

catholics over in like the post

839

falls like on the border area there.

840

I don't, I don't know about it.

841

Yeah.

842

And she's got some, she knows

some history also about the

843

Immaculate Heart Retreat Center.

844

Okay.

845

The source of not that center now, but.

846

The original?

847

Yeah, what that came out of.

848

There's something interesting

background there too.

849

I'll actually send her a text

on my way out of the radio show.

850

Alright, well, Cassie Benfield,

this has been really, really great.

851

And I feel like it got better as we went,

so we're going to have to have you back.

852

Just remember how awesome the

conversation was right at the end there.

853

And we'll pick right up where we left off.

854

It was fun.

855

Thank you for joining us.

856

Really enjoyed it.

857

Alright, let me sign off here.

858

Do you have questions

about local government?

859

Wondering who to complain to about

an issue in your neighborhood?

860

Wondering which agency

governs certain things?

861

Wondering why something is

happening and, or how much it costs?

862

Email us at freerange at kyrs.

863

org with your questions and we'll

try to answer them next week.

864

Free Range is a weekly news and

public affairs program presented

865

by Range Media and produced by

Range Media and KYRS Community

866

Radio, KYRS, Medical Lake Spokane.

867

Cassie, Erin, and everybody out

there listening, have a good weekend.