In this episode, host Nathan Dunleavy speaks with Maya Badham, founder of S-A-H-S-D-A and creator of the Partnership Planet Model. Maya shares her powerful journey from supporting trauma survivors to reimagining how we live with dogs — not as projects to train, but as partners to respect.

💡 What you’ll discover:

The roots of the Partnership Planet Model

Why control and compliance limit connection with dogs

How co-regulation, autonomy, and stewardship transform relationships

Practical examples of responding through partnership, not obedience

Redefining what “success” as a dog guardian really means

If you’ve ever wondered what true partnership with your dog could look like, this episode is a must-listen.

Find local and ethical dog trainers, dog behaviourists, dog walkers, groomers, dog pros and pet businesses near you.  Yappily is the UK directory built to help you find trusted pet care professionals you can feel good about working with.

📍 Search verified and trusted listings on Yappily

Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered

by Yappily, the podcast where we

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dive into all things dog with heart,

honesty, and a whole lot of curiosity.

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I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy,

and today we're joined by someone

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whose work blends compassion.

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Ethics and emotional intelligence

in a truly powerful way.

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Maya Badham is the founder and CEO

of S-A-H-S-D-A, a qualified advisor

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in sexual and domestic abuse, and

the creator of the partnership.

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Planet model, a framework for how we live

with our dogs in genuine partnership.

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Today's conversation isn't

about training methods or

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obedience, it's about connection.

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It's about what real partnership

looks like between dogs and humans.

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And honestly, it's an outlook

I think we all need to hear.

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So grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Welcome back to The Yappy

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Hour, powered by Yappily.

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I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and

I'm so excited to bring you another

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episode of The Yappy Hour Today.

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Even more excited that we've got

the amazing Maya Badam joining us.

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Welcome Maya, to the Yappy Hour.

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How are you doing today?

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Maya Badham: well.

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Thank you for just staying.

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It's a bit, it's a bit warm

and Polly today, but other

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than that I'm absolutely fine.

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Thank you.

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How are you?

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It is very, yeah, I'm okay.

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It is very warm.

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I'm often a sweaty betting myself, so

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Maya Badham: in it together.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

don't worry.

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We're in it together.

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That's it.

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So Maya, your background going into our

first section all about meeting Maya,

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your background is incredibly unique.

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Could you tell us a bit more about your

journey and what led you to, to create the

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Partnership, planet, planet model, please.

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Maya Badham: So.

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I think it unique's probably

a good word actually.

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Because my background

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I love that word.

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Maya Badham: Or a bit off, off the wall.

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I I didn't necessarily start

out in the animal world.

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I've kind of made my way to it and I

think, well, I mean, everyone's journey

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is unique in, in some respects, isn't it?

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But I definitely didn't have a

traditional route into, animal

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and the dog specific world.

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So my background's in human kind of

support and emotional support for those

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who've experienced trauma normally

within a, a, a domestic abuse lens.

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And I worked with

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

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Maya Badham: quite a lot.

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So I worked with kind of anyone over

plus and worked with some older, older

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people as well, and some vulnerable

people, so you have additional needs

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

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Mm.

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Maya Badham: I got my dog in

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that sector for over 10 years.

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I think I entered in 20, living around 20.

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13, I started volunteering alongside

my my degrees and then I went into

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qualifying as an independent support

worker before then moving into education

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and training, so delivering training

on kind of trauma-informed practice

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delivering some of the big national

training to statutory organizations

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like policing and social services.

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And then I moved

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

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Maya Badham: in 2019 and I got my dog.

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So we talk about

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

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Maya Badham: now.

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I a I got him eight weeks old and

he's my first dog as an adult.

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So we had dogs growing out.

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We fostered dalmatians when I was younger.

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My parents did and my family did,

and I've always loved animal.

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I actually wanted to be a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

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Maya Badham: I reached GCC and I was

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: oh wow.

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Maya Badham: good at maths.

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so,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Same.

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Maya Badham: but it's

really weird how life.

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Shunts you sometimes into something

that you think doesn't relate and

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then you kind of come back to it in a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,

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Maya Badham: way.

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Because doing what I do now, I really

feel like this is what I was meant to do.

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And I, I don't, I think it's quite

rare sometimes that you have, that

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you meet that kind of purpose in

life that you are meant to do.

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And,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

definitely,

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Maya Badham: PAD

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

definitely.

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Maya Badham: so he just turns,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I love it.

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Maya Badham: a border colleague.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

What pre does?

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Pod?

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Oh, border Collie?

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Yes.

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Maya Badham: face border and I got

that, I sorry for another time that how

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I got him was a bit unusual as well.

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But what I realized when I got

him someone who is neurodivergent

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is very kind of a stressy person,

so I was watching him, you know,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

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Maya Badham: puppy.

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Just, just loving life.

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And I was just thinking to myself,

you know, is he doing that?

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What is he thinking?

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How can I give him the best life stressing

that I wasn't giving him the best?

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You know, kind of maybe being a

bit of a helicopter parent, to be

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I know.

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Yeah.

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I'm, I, I've been a bit

like that in the past.

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Maya Badham: it's and is actually

quite stressful, you know, having

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a, I think it is something that

we underestimate if it is our

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: We do.

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Maya Badham: as well, having one.

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And he just was amazing and so

interesting and so much of the work

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that I'd already done with young adults

and those who experienced trauma, even

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though when I got him, you know, he

was fresh, so he hadn't, you know, had,

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nothing had happened to him or yeah.

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I was using a lot of those same

skills and mindset of accepting him

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for who he was, listening to him

respecting his kind of boundaries.

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I realized quite quickly that that

was actually quite unusual, because

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I then entered the dog world.

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You know, at first the Facebook

kind of groups and then

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Go Cup.

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Maya Badham: and you are just, you'll

just receive such a massive, a load

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of information, different places,

different people, different countries.

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The algorithm, you know, you are

looking at one thing and then it, it

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kind of pushes you into another thing.

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It's saying something

completely the opposite.

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it was really You know, I, I,

I raised project on my own as a

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single pouring, as I like to say.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh wow.

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Maya Badham: navigating it on

my own, at beginning, which

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is, yeah, it's so full on.

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And I was really lucky when I got him.

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I was in a break.

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I, I'd just finished a job I'd, I'd

moved and I had about four weeks until

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I started the, the, the, the next job.

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So I actually had a period of time

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

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Maya Badham: just had to

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's good.

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Maya Badham: So I spent the time

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

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Maya Badham: reading everything I

could sifting all of that information

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that I was, you know, being bombarded

with through that internal moral

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lens, my values who I am as a person,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

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Maya Badham: I view the world in the,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

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Maya Badham: of sensient

beings that we, we live with.

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And so I was, it was quite easy in

some respects to out the bits that I

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would more align with and reject the

bits that I didn't align with so much.

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then through that kind of

exploration is when I, you know,

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started to engage with some of

them more well known behaviourists.

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I'm very lucky that I look

my local down the road

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behaviourist, Tricia Hollingshead.

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She offered, like,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh yeah, I know the name.

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Maya Badham: a free, kind of consultation

thing for young puppies and I took Podrick

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and now we're friends because we live, you

know, pretty much next door to each other.

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And yeah, her book's great.

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The listen to me exploring the

emotional life of your dog.

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So shameless plug, not, she's not told

me to do that, but it's a fabulous,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

I don't, we, I love a plug on here.

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You, you plug away.

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Maya Badham: it's a fabulous book and it

did, it, it wasn't published when I first

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got public, but it's really solidified my

understanding and kind of body language

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behaviour in that emotional, you know,

the key in the title of that is the

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emotional life of the Animal and the Dog.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: That's really where the

partnership planet the compliance

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and the partnership planet was born.

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Because there are two sides of the,

you know, a paradigm shift model is

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that we currently, lots of people

live on this compliance planet.

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So that is rooted in obedience, rooted

in control, rooted in what I want you

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to do as the dog, rather than asking

is that something that benefits them?

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Is that something that they want to do?

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And I modeled it

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

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Maya Badham: that work that I've had done

working with domestic abuse survivors and

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and understanding perpetrator mentality.

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And so I adapted it because the planets

aren't for those who intentionally

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harm or intentionally want control.

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It's for people that have

been told through that.

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Societal myths, societal

pressure and stereotypes.

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What it means to live with a

dog, what it means to love a dog.

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And unfortunately for want of a better

word, dominant paradigm is the one

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that most people, currently sit under.

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And it's the one that you are

vulnerable to when you are

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entering that world for the

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: So I originally wrote the

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: for myself because

I was by this time engaging with

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a serious amount of information.

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You know, I was reading proper

behaviour books, you know, not just.

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You know the kind of training books.

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And then I went and I did courses and

qualification to learn more about the

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kind of canine psychology and behaviour.

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And the more I did that, the more

I realized how similar it is to the

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children's stuff that I was doing.

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So a lot of it was basically

just the child stuff rewritten

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and rep repackaged for dogs.

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So that was really interesting.

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So, so it was, the model was a

way of sifting for me and then

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putting it other visual learners.

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So putting that all of it into one place.

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If you look at the planet model,

you'll see the amount of references

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on it is quite massive and

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Maya Badham: because I've taken, I mean

they're not, nothing in the planets

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are new, it's just a new visual aid.

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All of it is rooted in other

people's, what other people

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have brought to the table.

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And I think one of the unique things

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: interdisciplinary and we

need to have that interdisciplinary

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and intersectional lens.

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We're going to have progress.

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So that's the beauty of not just

looking at something in a silo, but

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looking at a range of voices from

across the country, across the world,

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across sectors and professions and

trying then to say, Hey, this might

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be a little bit a piece of the puzzle

that might help someone else who just

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: Google and just

gets contradictory information.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's raft of info, just, yeah.

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It's crazy, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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Oh, I love that.

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Thank you.

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So what was the moment you realized

this framework was needed, Maya?

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Maya Badham: Do you, if it

was a, a specific moment or

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just that journey that I've

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No.

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Maya Badham: a little bit, is that,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

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Maya Badham: to make sense of how

a roadmap for, so I knew my aim was

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to make sure that my dog had the

best life he could possibly have.

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I didn't really know what that meant.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I like what you said.

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Maya Badham: Sorry.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I

like what you said by roadmap as well.

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That's a good analogy.

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Roadmap like that.

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Maya Badham: You know, so I

didn't know what that meant.

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So I knew in my fault that's

what I wanted to give.

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But so many

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Maya Badham: think that they're

giving that, and actually what they

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are doing is the compliance plan.

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So that's the kind of conflict

that, you know, I had when I was

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trying to figure everything out.

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And I think that a lot of other people

have is that their internal drive is good.

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It's rooted in care and love and

compassion, but that the methodology,

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and I don't just mean by kind of training

or tools by that, but I just mean

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the method that in which we interact

with dogs and life is sadly rooted in

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just a history of, maybe, you know,

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not a good understanding of the

emotional life, or maybe not

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even that an acknowledgement.

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First of all, that they are emotional

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: and that they

have a right to that choice

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and agency and respect from us.

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Because so often what we see is

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: a thinly bailed or

sometimes not thinly bailed for respect.

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And that's why it is so similar

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Maya Badham: some of the work that

I was doing in the domestic abuse

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world because perpetrators in that

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, I bet.

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Maya Badham: unbridled, unadulterated

respect from the people and often

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animals that they interact with.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

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Maya Badham: and unfortunately

I love all of the kind of,

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you know, Kim Bro's leg stuff.

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'cause she talks about

the dog as a captive

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes.

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Maya Badham: being.

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And I think we start to, need to start

reframing that in our minds when we

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are thinking about how we live and

love dogs is, is thinking this animal.

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We've come so far in even a hundred

year history of, you know, developmental

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and evolution in terms of ourselves

and how we live is so different.

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Yet our animals haven't had

that, kind of time really.

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So I think, you know, and again,

I'm just, you know, this isn't new

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what I'm seeing, but kind of that

labeling of behavioural issues.

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So on the, on the compliance planet,

you see this kind of good, bad

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continuum that Andy Hale talks about

quite a lot, you know, is that we

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don't have any grace for our animals.

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We're either good or bad, there's

no room the range of emotional life

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that we have even on a daily basis.

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As human beings, we seem to have,

we seem to know that we have,

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you know, sometimes we wake up.

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Maybe, you know, we stepped

it in the wrong way.

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So our neck's a little bit in

pain, so we're a little bit grumpy.

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We go downstairs, we have our

coffee per us off a little bit.

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We might take some ibuprofen.

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And then for those of you who exercise,

'cause I'm not one of those people,

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but some people might go for a run

or something and then that also

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I am.

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Maya Badham: them, you

know, that sp spikes memory.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I am not that person either.

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Maya Badham: as an, you know,

as an example, it spikes

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there, them up a bit more.

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And and then they might have

a really productive morning.

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And then in the afternoon maybe they get

some bad news and their mood comes down.

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And we seem to recognize

that in ourselves.

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we don't allow our animals and

our, and dogs especially to

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have that range of emotions.

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We want 'em to just be, fit

that box all of the time.

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And it does a disservice.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I know

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Maya Badham: to them and

to us and our relationship.

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And they tolerate it

'cause they're amazing.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

They are.

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Yeah.

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We don't wanna fit 'em all into a

box 'cause everyone's different and

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unique and that's what makes us all

special and, and particularly them.

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I just wanna put a little side note

here that my dogs are barking in the

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background so it wouldn't be the yappy

hour without having some yappy dogs.

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Sometimes they're with my husband

downstairs if I'm recording.

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So we may or may not edit them out.

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It depends.

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But,

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Maya Badham: I think

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Them.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

but today they are.

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Yeah, today they are with me and they

are like some, I, I do sometimes leave

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them downstairs if my husband's not

home, but then they kind of would

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bark if they were left downstairs.

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But now they've probably heard something

and they're barking in the background.

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So yes, this.

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Maya Badham: in a way, you know, with

the barking, because is such a classic

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

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Maya Badham: contact behaviour

and, and trainers for.

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You know, goes back to that

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Maya Badham: barking as

an annoyance with humans.

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So we find it.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

What's communication to them, isn't it?

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Maya Badham: it's their voice.

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You know, in terms of,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: The sounds that they make.

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Obviously they talk through a range of

different, body movements and things,

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but barking is, is a natural thing.

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And then when you look at

breathe, obviously that can also

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fluctuate depending on breath.

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And I think why the, with the partnership

plan, and it's not, the partnership

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plan isn't about saying, okay, let

your dog continuously bark for hours

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because you have to balance your

human right to pee with their right

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to you know, have a voice and bark.

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So it's about, it's looking

for those reasons, isn't it?

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So is there an unmet need?

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Are they barking for a purpose?

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So if someone goes past the window

or a, the postman or the post

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It's

normally what it is for these lot.

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Someone's gone past the front door.

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Maya Badham: so and so for my own dog,

he's not very barking at all, but he will

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bark, you know, especially if he's deeply

asleep and say the post comes, he will.

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Startle bark, basically,

which makes complete sense.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Maya Badham: some people would then

respond with you know, sharply tell them

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to shut up or, you know, in some way.

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But really for Podrick, I just let him

and he, he, once he feels fulfilled,

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normally less than a minute, he will

just be like, okay, nothing's happening.

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Nothing to worry about.

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I won't bark anymore.

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And I know like that's not

the case for every single dog.

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But

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Well, they, they were bred for a

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reason to bark, to alert you to

oncoming dangers, so they're just

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letting you know, aren't they?

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Maya Badham: I just thank, I just

say thank you, you know this is

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why like, you know, some of Kim's

bro, these stuff, you know her

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hacks, because sometimes it's just

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Maya Badham: communicate back.

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So I always, you know, thank, thank

him and I thank him in a, know.

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In a really neutral voice or 'cause

you don't want him to add arou

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or, so I'm not like, thank you.

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He say, oh,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No,

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Maya Badham: you very much.

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You know, and then I'll explain, oh,

they've gone now, you know, did, or you

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know, you say let's do something else

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I love all that.

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Maya Badham: and it's, it's,

that comes quite naturally to me.

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But I think it's about acknowledging that

doesn't come naturally to other people.

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And that's where,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Maya Badham: be a progressing, but it's

so interesting is the human you know,

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how we are raised as human beings.

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How, what we believe in our values and our

lessons that we learn influences how much

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of our, we interact with our our animals.

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And I think until we improve that,

our own emotional regulation, our own

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understanding of parenting, so until we

get a better relationship with children.

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Not only, you know, in, in a

individual household sense, but

404

as a society-wide country sense.

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I don't, I think we're only ever gonna be

able to go so far with the, our animals,

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especially our dogs, because still have

such a what's the, what's the word?

407

Like that power, that adult ation type

way of interacting with even children.

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So until that, that improves,

I think is an uphill battle.

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Really?

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Yeah, agree.

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And another little plug for Kim,

bro, in a book, meet Your Dog.

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It's an amazing book for people.

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If you haven't read it yet.

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I was glued to it for ages.

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Maya Badham: I think I listen to that.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

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So what's that, sorry?

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Maya Badham: to that one on

Audible or one of the old

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, yeah.

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I, I remember taking it away

with me on, on holiday and I read

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it and I couldn't fill it down.

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Brilliant.

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So moving on to our next section.

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So we may have touched on

this a little bit already, but

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it's all about understanding

the partnership planet model.

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So what is it in just

a brief nutshell, Maya?

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Maya Badham: So I think earlier

on when I said roadmap and, and,

429

and you said you like that word, I

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Love that.

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Maya Badham: is in, not the whole picture.

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So that's why the references there,

like, please, you know, use it to

434

go and seek further information.

435

And I think that's part of it, is need

to invest in that education to fully be

436

able to put the partnership planet into

action, into like meaningful action.

437

But essentially it's a framework

that it's almost like the perfect.

438

Idea of what a relationship would be.

439

And I think in a way, so obviously,

and I will say the partnership, the the

440

Planet model a change is edited fairly

regularly because the amount that we're

441

learning about the world Animals world int

442

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

443

Forever evolving.

444

Maya Badham: vol evolving.

445

And I'm not ever

446

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

447

Maya Badham: say, we strive for

perfection, but we never, I don't

448

think we're ever, we ever get there.

449

So my, with the planet model, it's

more about showing there is a different

450

way, we're not always gonna do it.

451

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

452

Maya Badham: right.

453

but it's about,

454

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

455

Maya Badham: that roadmap, that

guidance to how can we get better?

456

an improvement

457

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

458

Maya Badham: really.

459

And what it does is it categorize that

460

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

461

Maya Badham: shift that we

are seeing in certain areas.

462

But what we want is a societal shift.

463

That paradigm shift from looking.

464

Beyond training, looking beyond

compliance and obedience to a

465

relationship that's rooted in

compassion and connection and consent.

466

All the seeds, and, and and understanding

of what it means to be a dog.

467

Truly be a dog and love a dog and fulfill

that dog's needs in the environment

468

that we currently have set up.

469

That's kind of what it is,

470

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

471

A couple of things there is

that, obviously the saying

472

like, oh, nobody's perfect.

473

Well, per being perfect's boring.

474

And a slight sort of comparison,

although quite different with my mentees.

475

I say pro progress is

better than perfection.

476

I'd rather they just make progress to

their sort of end goals rather than

477

trying to be perfect all the time.

478

You know, there's no point.

479

Just take the pressure on just as

long as you're making some progress.

480

So what.

481

Maya Badham: as well.

482

So this is all taken from the

children child development stuff.

483

So like, if you are not perfect and

you do something that you feel is

484

wrong, you didn't feel like that

you handled that situation with

485

your dog as well as you could.

486

are arguably the most

forgiving speech we have.

487

So the good news is that we can repair

that, which is called a rupture.

488

So you know, when that, that

attach all, that bond has a rupture

489

there, the partnership planet

490

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

491

Maya Badham: just about saying, you

must do it this way all of the time.

492

It's like, if there is a blip,

it is a way of that blip and a

493

way of also use it with yourself.

494

So if we are saying, you need to do

this with your dog, be accepting,

495

understand, and love them for who they

are, take the pressure off and all of

496

that, you need to do it with ourselves.

497

So it's okay, not, not, you

know, to have slipups sometimes,

498

like you said, we're all human.

499

But finding our way back to that.

500

Is, is, is don't let that kind of shun you

off into then that into compliance plan.

501

And I think that's one of the farthest

things about, you know, I said about

502

education and that investment to look

at the compliance and partnership plan.

503

It, it, need to have critical

self-reflection skills.

504

You need to be comfortable being

uncomfortable and saying, because

505

lots of people have read the planet.

506

And deeply confronting sometimes

because one of the things I've

507

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

508

Maya Badham: lots of people think

they're on partnership planet.

509

They're actually on compliance planet.

510

And that disconnection is quite,

like I said, quite confronting

511

for peoples to realize, actually

I'm doing it this, but I'm not.

512

So for a classic example

513

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

514

Maya Badham: I'm gonna say it,

although you know, this is why I

515

get a bit anxious 'cause people

sometimes think it's around like the

516

training, the training that we do.

517

So with, even when you use positive

training and you use treats, it can still

518

be rooted in the compliance mindset.

519

So if so, the

520

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I Now I can complete.

521

Maya Badham: yeah.

522

So if the dog doesn't wanna do

something and you learn them to do it,

523

you are, that's comply, that's you.

524

They're not doing it out of a choice.

525

Or sometimes you will do

526

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I completely understand.

527

Maya Badham: rather than internally,

is this something that they want to do?

528

So you sometimes see that quite a

lot with the sport arena type things.

529

And so really when you read things

like that and you think, oh God,

530

that's what I've been doing, it's

natural as human beings to go,

531

actually, no, I'm not a bad person.

532

whole point of to subvert those labels.

533

The good bad, the good bad continuum where

you are only good or you are only bad.

534

It doesn't serve as humans.

535

It doesn't serve our dogs.

536

And, and so that's, that's kind of the,

the, the, a little bit of the tricky thing

537

with the planets is you need to go into

them with a mindset that, it may not match

538

what you think are doing kind of thing.

539

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, caring of an open mind.

540

Maya Badham: exactly.

541

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Why did you choose the planetary

542

metaphor and what does it help

people feel or see differently?

543

Maya Badham: Yeah, it's

an interesting one.

544

I wanted something round.

545

Because originally it was a wheel

because the the power and control

546

wheels, which they referenced on the,

on the planet model, they were kind

547

of the, the spark of inspiration.

548

So not a, they're not a, a copy in any

way, shape or form, but they're referenced

549

as the kind of inspiration because like

I said, wheel model is in domestic abuse.

550

That's all about intentional harm

and, and, and cruel to towards

551

other people in that sense.

552

And so made sense to kind of

have the elements kind of in that

553

circle with the the reason, the

motivating factor in the middle.

554

So that's why it was originally wheel

then I moved to planet and I think planet

555

probably does fit better because from

a visual and a kind of a cognitive.

556

Where do I fit?

557

I think having planets is, is easier

and like, and then I described

558

the little bit as a black hole.

559

So like I just said then some

people, so people that own are on

560

Compliance Planet and they're on

that planet almost firmly on it.

561

They might jump to Partnership Planet

for bits, but go back to compliance.

562

Not many people are wholly on

563

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

564

Maya Badham: planet because like, we're

still learning all the time around it,

565

but lots of people spend most of their

time on a partnership planet and then

566

they might fall into compliance planet.

567

Those people that are kind of trying to

do a mashup of both just, you know, just

568

because that's who they are and how they

act, they kind of fall in the middle that

569

that black hole, that middle part where

they're not really on compliant, wholly

570

on compliance or wholly on partnership.

571

but it really, the planets,

the, in terms of the shape of

572

them came from that idea of.

573

It's like a, I think maybe just

my visual ease kind of point

574

that I'm either here or there.

575

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

576

Maya Badham: I think that was really

577

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

578

Maya Badham: me capable, I think

579

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

580

Brilliant.

581

Who is the model four Maya dog

professionals, guardians, or both?

582

Maya Badham: good question.

583

I mean, when I wrote them, I was, you

know, like I said to you, I'm not,

584

I'm not a qualified behaviourist.

585

I'm not a, I'm not a trainer.

586

It's not my area of expertise at all.

587

And so I wrote

588

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

589

Maya Badham: for myself as

a parent, a dog parent, to

590

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

591

Maya Badham: make sense of the world.

592

I think therefore they do, they are quite

useful for parents, but I think anyone

593

can, can, can look at them and use them.

594

I think for professionals it's

still really useful to look at them.

595

Because that is sometimes, and so

I have had some professionals use

596

them in sessions with clients.

597

So therefore it,

598

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

599

Maya Badham: a

600

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: That's

601

Maya Badham: can use, the kind

of, that the client can take away.

602

They can you know, have a read of it

and an understanding of it and it can

603

help, support what you are teaching.

604

Especially if you are kind in that

605

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

606

Maya Badham: Space and positive

training space or behaviour space.

607

It can help them to understand

what you are saying in a, in a way.

608

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

609

Maya Badham: but also some professionals

are on compliance plan, so it's

610

also useful for them to kind of

611

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

612

Maya Badham: examine internally where

do I sit and, and am I practicing what

613

I preach and that kind of thing as well.

614

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

615

Maya Badham: anyone

616

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

617

No, I love that.

618

Absolutely love that.

619

Brilliant.

620

Thank you so much.

621

We're gonna be moving on to our next

section, which is all about a new

622

way of coexisting with our dogs.

623

One of the things that stood out

to me in the model is the emphasis

624

on co-regulation and autonomy.

625

Why are those so important

in human dog relationships

626

Maya Badham: I think it's not even just

about human dog relationships, I think

627

it's just relationships for salt because

628

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

in general?

629

Hmm.

630

Maya Badham: we don't have that mutual

respect, tolerance for other beings,

631

generally you're not gonna have a solid

foundation for a positive relationship.

632

Regardless of who who they are.

633

And I think, you know, I touched on

earlier about like a co-regulation.

634

You know, unless we are regulated

ourselves, it's kind of, a lot of it

635

is taken from that gentle parenting.

636

With children and on

637

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

638

Maya Badham: Profession kind of what I

used to do when I worked with young adults

639

is, how can you be fully, how can you

expect someone to, to trust you and be

640

fully invested in you if you are not able

to be fully present and whole with them?

641

So really it's and I mean, that's what

a lot of the behaviours do, isn't it?

642

They're not just working with the dog,

they're working with that whole family.

643

And that's what my

644

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

645

Yeah.

646

Maya Badham: when I'm working in, in

animals and the, and the abuse side of

647

things is what I want is for animals to

be included within a whole family, what we

648

call a whole family, and a whole systems

approach to ending kind of violence,

649

violence and abuse towards everyone.

650

And I think the planets kind of speak

to that in the same way, is that

651

holistic, whole person, whole animal,

person centered, dog centered approach.

652

You, you can't ask for something

you're not willing to give.

653

It's not a, a relationship rooted in

equality, you know, or any form of

654

equity if you, if you transactionally

based climate relationship.

655

So

656

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

657

Maya Badham: important.

658

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Love that.

659

Could you give an example of what a

partnership based response might look

660

like versus a more conventional one?

661

Maya Badham: So we touched on,

you know, that barking example

662

is quite a good, good example.

663

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

664

Maya Badham: I often also use is

and it all comes down to having that

665

understanding of dogs as a species and

then dogs, your individual dog, which is

666

why love their legs model so much because,

you know Kimbro's Legs talks about the

667

learning in the environment, genetics and

south of the, of the dog, which makes.

668

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I am

glad you explained what they all were,

669

because I thought we better do that.

670

Maya Badham: Yeah, exactly.

671

And that's like who that

your dog is as an individual.

672

Because you know, there will

be breed traits, there will be

673

history and all of this, but that

self, that x is so important.

674

'cause that is your dog's personality.

675

So even so I'm thinking about my own dog.

676

So one of nine puppies.

677

And very lucky in that we've seen some of

the other puppies, you know, grow up and,

678

and how they, and they all had the same

environment, so they had the same and dad.

679

There would be slight differences in,

680

how they were raised because

no one is even sibling.

681

So even if you're a twin,

slightly different ways.

682

Your experiences are still different.

683

So that's your e in the environment.

684

But they had, you know, fairly

similar early life experiences.

685

And yet.

686

Project is uniquely him.

687

And I can, and, and what I find

wild, I dunno why I find it wild,

688

because it's, it's the same with

human families, but like he look all

689

his siblings, you can like see their

mom and dad and them really clearly.

690

So they have really clear, facial

structure, facial bits that look

691

exactly really strong facial re you

know, resemblance to their families.

692

And yet he as himself is so unique to

him and, and it's just so interesting

693

and important for that that dog.

694

So in terms of going back to the, what a

partnership based response made like that.

695

So the one I use the most is around, say

you get a like a dash round or a Terri

696

Breed that's like historically to dig.

697

You put that dog in a house

with, you know, like a, you

698

know, a general pet home.

699

They don't have any intention of

doing any kind of original sports

700

or whatever the animal bread books.

701

And then that dog digs up the rose

bushes or that dog, you know, goes

702

on an adventure, tunneling under the,

under the fence or something like that.

703

And then we get really annoyed with that.

704

And we say, so, you know, it's a bad dog.

705

It's a bad dog because he's doing

these things that really annoys and

706

my prize rose bushes are now mulch.

707

And so a really simple solution to

that from a partnership point of

708

view is the dog is clearly displaying

a knee, has a need to dig, which

709

is rooted in probably genetics.

710

So that g the environment in that at

the moment, that's the only place that

711

he can do, and then also the self.

712

So.

713

Another good example of that is Podrick.

714

So PO's a border Collie.

715

He is the most Unor collie, border

Collie, most people I've ever met.

716

So he's very

717

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Really,

718

Maya Badham: He, he doesn't

make loads of exercise.

719

He is a complete couch potato.

720

He is very gentle.

721

He doesn't chase, he doesn't, you

know, he is very not heard at all.

722

And

723

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

God is so uncharacteristic for the

724

Maya Badham: And, and that's him.

725

That's him, that's who he is.

726

So, so,

727

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

His personality.

728

Maya Badham: if I quickly finish off

the story with the dash, and I'll go

729

back to pod dripping his at end point.

730

So he so then for example, it would

just be a case of giving them a place

731

that they are allowed to dig or,

you know, a sand pit or an outlet

732

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

733

Maya Badham: way that they're allowed

734

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

735

Maya Badham: fulfill that need

and therefore that behaviour

736

issue longer it to exist.

737

So,

738

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

739

Maya Badham: poverty, I decided, so

I got here I thought there's, there's

740

a person down the road who did.

741

Kind of sheep trials and this trying,

I thought, oh, that seems like a

742

really fun to do with a conwell.

743

And she just said to me like,

oh, I'm not worried that he's

744

like, wants to attack the sheep.

745

He's just not naturally very good.

746

You know, he just didn't

have the natural ability.

747

And I know you have the teaching element

to it, but I could have forced him.

748

So I could say, well, I want

the dog, there's a trialing dog,

749

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

750

Maya Badham: keep doing this and

I'm going to train him to the of

751

his life to do it and do it well.

752

And he probably would because he's

likes to make me happy like a lot of

753

the dog, you know, and they're, you

know, historically that's why they're

754

so successful as a companion animal.

755

So I could have made him, but

would that have benefited him?

756

Would that have made our relationship

better or would that have compromised

757

his view of me and his trust of me?

758

You know, that's a question that we need

to be asking that historically we haven't.

759

asking,

760

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

there's a, it is more benefiting you

761

than the dog isn't there and we want

to be doing things for them, don't we?

762

Rather than for our egos?

763

Maya Badham: ego thing.

764

Dogs do not care about winning

and ribbons, and I'm not saying

765

that they don't like just to cat

766

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No, the fuss.

767

Maya Badham: off over in case they get

the sports people come and ask, but you

768

know, there are, there are dogs out there.

769

You watch them do, sports and

they'd really rather not be, you

770

can tell by they they're doing

771

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

772

Maya Badham: they've been asked

to by someone that they love and I

773

just can't think of a, a worse mis,

774

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I.

775

Maya Badham: of trust sometimes than

the ignoring of them and their autonomy,

776

like their agency, their, their wishes.

777

We would, if we, should, as

a society be questioning that

778

when we do it with humans.

779

I don't think we're quite even there

yet with some, some of that so I

780

can understand why dogs are behind.

781

But these that is, is what the plants

are about is like having curiosity,

782

fostering curiosity, questioning

our motivation that all of that.

783

And it's

784

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

785

Maya Badham: It's

really, really hard work.

786

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

787

Maya Badham: And so some people will just

788

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

789

Maya Badham: it.

790

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, yeah.

791

Brilliant.

792

So you describe it as moving

from ownership in inverted comm

793

to stewardship in inverted comm.

794

What does that mind shift

mean in everyday life?

795

Maya.

796

Maya Badham: Yeah.

797

So I think I'll briefly summarize it

'cause I think, you know, all of, just

798

all those examples of Be Scare are

really good examples of, of exactly that.

799

It's

800

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Definitely.

801

Maya Badham: Agency autonomy.

802

It's about guiding.

803

The dog and having a conversation with

the animal you know, not a kind of in

804

English necessarily or in human word, but,

805

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I wish.

806

Maya Badham: It's, it's like,

807

they rely on us for so much.

808

So it's not about saying, oh, let's

just them complete free reign.

809

So 'cause sometimes it's misconstrued as

well, you just have no boundaries then.

810

You just let them, you

do whatever they want.

811

Well, if

812

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No.

813

Yeah, we can.

814

Maya Badham: there's a safety

element there, responsibility

815

element there, there's definitely a

legal element to curb any of that.

816

But I think as far as possible,

it's about those questioning.

817

So active listening, respecting

when they say no, they don't

818

And if they, if they have to do

it because it's a medical or it's,

819

it's making sure that we do it

in a way that as far as possible.

820

Respect their, their holistic

being and their, their fear,

821

and you know who they are.

822

And that's essentially what it is.

823

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

and from speaking to various people

824

that I have done on this podcast,

but I am starting to see like the

825

shift more and I'm hearing like the

words choice, consent, and you know,

826

the dog, what was the other one?

827

Choice, consent agency.

828

We're starting to see more of a, more of

shift, aren't we to that way, thankfully.

829

Maya Badham: I think.

830

Well, I hope so.

831

I hope

832

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Bye bye.

833

Maya Badham: deeply hope so.

834

But I think those of us who are already

kind of doing it and asking those

835

questions, we sit in a little bubble.

836

when you poke your head out of

that bubble, it's still not great.

837

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Well

838

no, I know.

839

Maya Badham: which you set for Shane.

840

Yeah.

841

And I just hope you know, the, the

planets that conversation then.

842

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, most definitely.

843

Thank you so much for that.

844

So, moving on to our next section,

which is all the personal side

845

dogs as partners and not projects.

846

Have there been any dogs in your life

Maya, who have helped shape or challenge

847

this model for you personally at all?

848

Maya Badham: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

849

So I mean, Podrick Podrick is, is my life

now, you know, in terms of having that

850

dog centric life is definitely, for me.

851

And he was a big inspiration for

the, the planet really, because,

852

I mean, he just taught me so much.

853

And I mean, that's a whole podcast in of

itself is didn't I learn from project?

854

It's the better question, isn't it?

855

It is.

856

It just changed my life.

857

Know I wouldn't be like my

organization wouldn't exist.

858

My, like, being asked to

do this wouldn't happen.

859

You know, he, he

860

Yeah, he's just the center of everything.

861

I do have a cat and I do love him because

she, she's actually sat, where is she?

862

She's up there somewhere

and I always talk about po

863

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you

864

Maya Badham: I feel

865

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

did mention about

866

Maya Badham: cat thing.

867

No one thinks I love my,

I do love Michael a lot.

868

And

869

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

what's, what's your cat called?

870

Maya Badham: strudel

871

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Stu.

872

I love it.

873

And do they get on?

874

Okay.

875

Maya Badham: yeah, they do.

876

They're not best friends, but they

are happily coexisting in a non,

877

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Her existing.

878

Maya Badham: environment.

879

And that is all that I wanted

really for for them because she's

880

a new issue edition and she joined

in September last year after,

881

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, so she came after.

882

'cause normally people have cats

then get dogs from what I've seen.

883

Maya Badham: quadri.

884

And so he had grown up with, with the

cats and then sadly, you know, the

885

time both my cats passed, passed away

886

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I,

887

Maya Badham: and, and then, then

I got the strudel was a rescue.

888

And I mean, strudels taught me so much

as well as she, she, in fact, I put

889

a poster up So the difference between

getting podrick as a puppy, our kind

890

of bond was almost instantaneous

because he was really young.

891

And

892

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

893

Mm.

894

Maya Badham: dogs are naturally

well pods anyway, like very

895

naturally what's the word?

896

Not, he just was so dogs were bred to be

around us, so they're very US focused,

897

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

898

Maya Badham: are like

899

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: they are

900

Maya Badham: kind of more,

901

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

more leaf.

902

Maya Badham: more, yeah, a, I mean

none of my cats have been El elite of

903

than Olympics, but but dogs naturally

gravitate in that kind of way.

904

So.

905

Getting strudel and even my caps that

I had before, I had them as kittens.

906

So again, that bond was kind of formed

fairly easily with strudel as a rescue.

907

What I know, I even put

a ghost button today.

908

What I noticed with her is

it's taken 10 months to that

909

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Really?

910

Maya Badham: Yeah.

911

Because this is the assumption

that we have is like, oh, we

912

bring an animal into our lives.

913

They should owe us something, or

they should love us immediately, or

914

they should trust us immediately,

even as puppies or, or, or,

915

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Nah.

916

Maya Badham: animals.

917

And so she's really taught me that

it's about earning on both sides.

918

Obviously I liked her a lot.

919

That's why I rescue, that's

why I connected with, we had a

920

connection because obviously.

921

Well, I chose her, but she

didn't run away when I tried to,

922

but brought her home and, you

know, she, she, I, I, I made her

923

hide in place and she hit her,

you know, at least about 24 hours.

924

And it's really taken her as someone,

she obviously had existing trauma because

925

she, she'd been torn away from her home.

926

She'd been at the

restroom for four months.

927

She'd now been taken to a new

place with smells and a weird

928

person who didn't know yet.

929

And so, and now she's, she's very lene.

930

She, you know, she comes downstairs now

and it really was a process have bought

931

her like lots of people get, get, get

an animal and they just kind of plunk

932

it in the middle of the, the house.

933

They have access to the whole of the

house immediately, all the other animals

934

come and they're like, oh, who's this?

935

New person, dog, animal, whatever.

936

And some animals cope

quite well with that.

937

But the majority struggle with that

because, and I know I would if like

938

some strangers around at me suddenly

and thought it would be scary, right?

939

taught me loads in terms of

940

nerve and trust and mutual understanding

everything, but po but podrick really,

941

really, really something sparked in me.

942

I guess I, I think the more I learn

about kind of that applied pathology, I

943

really believe that some people have a

genetic switch around dogs that like turns

944

on and just have an additional thing.

945

We just, there's just, there's

just layers to it, isn't it?

946

'Cause the way we

947

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

948

Maya Badham: is just so different to kind

of the average, know, in terms of like,

949

if I'm going, everything's planned around.

950

But

951

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

952

Maya Badham: me, think something

around challenging expectations

953

and sometimes our expectations have

to change and like, that's okay.

954

So when I

955

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

956

Maya Badham: got him,

957

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

958

Maya Badham: and I didn't

get him for a reason.

959

It was, it was an a companion thing.

960

It wasn't anything other than that.

961

But when I got him, I would just come out

of frontline support work with survivors.

962

I was very unwell mentally from that.

963

And, and I

964

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Gosh.

965

Maya Badham: oh, you know, he would

be good to meet, you know, he gets

966

me out, gets me out of the house.

967

He gets me, you know,

968

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Good for your mental health.

969

Maya Badham: going to

the cafe or whatever.

970

But it he turned one

during the first lockdown.

971

So a lot

972

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

973

Maya Badham: his kind of adolescence

was in a period where we couldn't go.

974

To a c We couldn't go to a pub garden.

975

We couldn't go to these places.

976

and he'd also had some negative

interactions with other dogs.

977

So he then became quite fearful

of other dogs, which presented

978

in kind of a reactive response.

979

So he can, he had his dog friends,

980

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

981

Maya Badham: can make new dog friends.

982

But he needs it to be slow and he needs

to be able to process, which I think is

983

very reasonable to be honest with you.

984

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Definitely.

985

Maya Badham: he'd been ran at, at speed by

the dog's friendly, the friendly part dog.

986

But he

987

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh gosh.

988

Maya Badham: cope with it.

989

He's quite sensitive and it's scary.

990

Like I just think people don't, don't,

if you think if I was walking around

991

and then some two people ran at me

that I didn't know, and then when

992

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Bye.

993

Maya Badham: space touching me,

you know, kind of going behind me,

994

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I'd pay my pants.

995

Maya Badham: he would

be really, really scary.

996

And that is, that can be traumatic

and that can have a lifelong

997

lasting impact, as it did

998

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

999

Maya Badham: So I had to then critically

examine my expectations and go, he's

00:46:16,285 --> 00:46:19,735

never ever going to be a pub garden dog.

00:46:20,605 --> 00:46:21,775

would be a great pug garden

00:46:22,041 --> 00:46:22,161

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

00:46:22,195 --> 00:46:23,185

Maya Badham: there weren't other dogs.

00:46:24,355 --> 00:46:29,545

So he's absolutely, you know, sound

in, in, in all other areas, but,

00:46:30,325 --> 00:46:32,905

and I think that's probably the,

the biggest lesson I've had and the

00:46:32,905 --> 00:46:35,065

biggest lesson from the planet is.

00:46:35,410 --> 00:46:40,900

That question, are we doing it because

we want them to do it or are we doing

00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:43,000

it because it serves them in some way?

00:46:43,030 --> 00:46:44,680

Do they actually want to do it?

00:46:44,830 --> 00:46:48,760

Because, you know, now I go to cafes

and I go to go to the pub where with my

00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,930

friends without pod, and I see dogs there,

like I said, don't want to be there.

00:46:54,130 --> 00:46:54,485

They ask

00:46:54,986 --> 00:46:56,606

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, I know what you mean.

00:46:56,770 --> 00:46:57,430

Maya Badham: so blind

00:46:57,596 --> 00:46:58,076

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

00:46:58,170 --> 00:46:59,950

Maya Badham: they just, they want that, so

00:46:59,996 --> 00:47:00,296

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

they are.

00:47:00,310 --> 00:47:04,540

Maya Badham: make that, it, it,

it's, it's, it's it's disturbing

00:47:04,540 --> 00:47:09,500

in some regards, just how little

regard we give to the center.

00:47:10,610 --> 00:47:11,090

life over another.

00:47:11,090 --> 00:47:11,270

We're being

00:47:14,316 --> 00:47:16,476

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And

like, and they're not defending those

00:47:16,476 --> 00:47:19,176

people in in any way, but because

they're not in the industry that we

00:47:19,176 --> 00:47:21,996

are, they may not necessarily know

'cause they dunno what we don't know.

00:47:22,010 --> 00:47:22,880

Maya Badham: the model

00:47:22,946 --> 00:47:24,506

It says unintentional.

00:47:24,846 --> 00:47:25,776

Because

00:47:25,882 --> 00:47:27,892

It's not intentional.

00:47:27,892 --> 00:47:33,262

Like there's no question that the people

on Compliance planet love their dogs.

00:47:33,262 --> 00:47:39,262

It's not a question about love, it's just

a question about blindness and ignorance

00:47:39,412 --> 00:47:41,302

that isn't intentionally looking.

00:47:41,302 --> 00:47:43,912

But that's just how we're

brought, how we are brought up.

00:47:44,152 --> 00:47:48,512

The societal messaging we get around

dogs and living with dog walk.

00:47:48,692 --> 00:47:49,322

That's what

00:47:49,338 --> 00:47:49,398

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

00:47:49,472 --> 00:47:49,802

Maya Badham: is.

00:47:49,802 --> 00:47:50,042

Yeah.

00:47:50,808 --> 00:47:51,753

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: just I.

00:47:51,843 --> 00:47:55,263

Need to reframe it and look at different,

I think we might have answered the next

00:47:55,263 --> 00:47:59,793

question in terms of what summit a dog

taught you when you least expected it.

00:47:59,793 --> 00:48:03,523

But yeah, with that we sort of did

that in a roundabout way with, with

00:48:03,523 --> 00:48:05,323

what we were saying previously.

00:48:05,373 --> 00:48:09,123

And I wanted to just add in here as

well, is that I think sometimes dogs

00:48:09,123 --> 00:48:13,243

come into our life for a reason and

they, you know, they may find us when

00:48:13,243 --> 00:48:15,278

we are not necessarily looking or.

00:48:16,358 --> 00:48:17,648

They've come, they come to help us.

00:48:17,648 --> 00:48:21,068

But like, it's funny 'cause a lot of

people I speak to, like I was a bit of a

00:48:21,068 --> 00:48:23,228

late bloomer with dogs, I'm not gonna lie.

00:48:23,228 --> 00:48:27,498

Like everyone's like, oh yeah, like

dogs had 'em since I was a baby

00:48:27,498 --> 00:48:31,238

and I grew up with 'em and just,

you know, and all this like, and we

00:48:31,238 --> 00:48:33,548

didn't have like dogs as a family.

00:48:33,548 --> 00:48:37,178

Like my, my nan always had dogs, so

I, I was around them, but we didn't

00:48:37,178 --> 00:48:39,488

have them with my, my parents.

00:48:39,488 --> 00:48:43,598

And it wasn't until I hit 30, so just

over 10 years ago now that I got my

00:48:43,598 --> 00:48:50,138

first dog as an adult, because I'd,

I was, I was living with my I husband

00:48:50,138 --> 00:48:53,918

at the time and we just got a house

together and it was the ILE time.

00:48:53,948 --> 00:48:56,378

As soon as we got this house within

two weeks, I knew I wanted to get

00:48:56,378 --> 00:49:01,238

a dog because I'd lived in a flat

and I'd gone traveling or whatever.

00:49:01,598 --> 00:49:05,108

And I got this dog and then like

this obsession grew because 10 years

00:49:05,108 --> 00:49:06,638

late, we've now got bloody seven.

00:49:09,128 --> 00:49:11,648

So I, like, I, I couldn't

imagine my life without, and

00:49:11,648 --> 00:49:13,058

also I, you said something about.

00:49:13,473 --> 00:49:14,763

You know, you, you plan your lifetime.

00:49:14,763 --> 00:49:18,813

Like we've got an SA dog as well,

and like we do plan our life around

00:49:18,813 --> 00:49:22,863

him because of his sa It's just,

just the way it is, I'm afraid.

00:49:24,873 --> 00:49:26,373

So that, and that's okay.

00:49:26,433 --> 00:49:27,273

That's okay.

00:49:27,723 --> 00:49:28,293

Yeah.

00:49:28,353 --> 00:49:31,573

So moving on to our next section

and you know, dealing with behaviour

00:49:31,593 --> 00:49:34,353

challenges through a partnership lens.

00:49:34,453 --> 00:49:36,583

So we're just gonna sort of

touch on this briefly and stuff.

00:49:36,583 --> 00:49:40,213

So lots of people listening will

have dogs that pull on a lead.

00:49:40,213 --> 00:49:44,713

We've mentioned barking at the door,

the postman or can't settle alone.

00:49:44,983 --> 00:49:50,023

How would the partnership planet Lens help

someone navigate those kind of struggles?

00:49:50,023 --> 00:49:50,533

Maya,

00:49:51,162 --> 00:49:53,107

Maya Badham: Yeah, so I

think we have, we have.

00:49:56,617 --> 00:50:01,987

First of all, it's a questioning

of is this a behavioural issue

00:50:02,167 --> 00:50:03,787

or is this an unmet need?

00:50:03,787 --> 00:50:05,377

Is this a seeking of

00:50:05,728 --> 00:50:06,148

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm-hmm.

00:50:06,457 --> 00:50:07,867

Maya Badham: Is this something else?

00:50:08,317 --> 00:50:14,407

Because you can't train safety, you have

to kind of be safe, that it has to be a

00:50:14,437 --> 00:50:19,477

whole environment and a, and a connection

for there to be that behavioural change.

00:50:19,777 --> 00:50:23,497

And so I'm not saying that we get

rid of training, 'cause I think

00:50:23,497 --> 00:50:28,597

training has a place, but I think

it's training and it's, and that we

00:50:28,597 --> 00:50:29,887

are missing quite a lot of the time.

00:50:30,097 --> 00:50:35,287

So what is that whole environment for

that whole dog and that whole family?

00:50:35,687 --> 00:50:39,767

So, and there are so many factors

that go into that, isn't it?

00:50:40,187 --> 00:50:44,147

And the partnership planet just

encourages people to take that

00:50:44,147 --> 00:50:46,547

pressure off, take that labeling off.

00:50:46,887 --> 00:50:49,257

And instead look a little

bit under the surface.

00:50:49,257 --> 00:50:52,527

I think that's how it can kind of

help and it's designed to be used.

00:50:52,527 --> 00:50:54,357

I think, you know, I mentioned

earlier about when we talked about

00:50:54,357 --> 00:50:55,977

who's, who are the planets for.

00:50:56,277 --> 00:50:59,557

You know, you can use the planets

alongside a really great behaviour

00:51:00,237 --> 00:51:02,187

plan or your behaviour risk that

you are working with or your

00:51:02,187 --> 00:51:03,297

chain that you're working with.

00:51:03,397 --> 00:51:06,037

If they're aligned to it, if they're

not, they probably won't like it.

00:51:07,207 --> 00:51:13,342

but it's, it's a good additional

metaphorical values type evaluation

00:51:13,342 --> 00:51:15,382

than, than an actual teaching of.

00:51:16,747 --> 00:51:18,457

How to stop much.

00:51:18,457 --> 00:51:20,467

We ask how to stop, stop, stop, stop.

00:51:20,467 --> 00:51:22,992

Rather than what can we

do action wise, you know?

00:51:22,992 --> 00:51:26,887

You know, also prevention, like

early intervention and prevention.

00:51:26,947 --> 00:51:30,787

It's obviously in the, in the abuse

world, that's where we focus on, because

00:51:30,967 --> 00:51:32,737

I don't want to be supporting a survivor.

00:51:32,737 --> 00:51:35,437

I don't want there to

be survivors to support.

00:51:35,557 --> 00:51:36,067

So

00:51:36,217 --> 00:51:36,507

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:51:37,146 --> 00:51:40,086

Maya Badham: and early intervention

that, that, the planets help

00:51:40,086 --> 00:51:42,756

with that quite a lot is,

00:51:42,907 --> 00:51:43,267

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:51:44,136 --> 00:51:45,276

Maya Badham: that, that guide and suppose

00:51:48,097 --> 00:51:49,957

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Don't they say the saying it goes

00:51:49,957 --> 00:51:51,457

prevention's better than the cure?

00:51:51,457 --> 00:51:52,297

Is that what they say?

00:51:52,357 --> 00:51:52,807

People say,

00:51:52,941 --> 00:51:53,231

Maya Badham: Yeah.

00:51:53,501 --> 00:51:53,791

Yeah.

00:51:55,447 --> 00:51:57,247

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I'm

obviously a qualified dog trainer, but

00:51:57,247 --> 00:52:00,937

I'm not actively practicing in as a

dog trainer day-to-day at the moment.

00:52:00,937 --> 00:52:05,647

But I think we're even coming away from

the word training as well, because it's

00:52:05,647 --> 00:52:09,157

quite militant and regimental really.

00:52:09,157 --> 00:52:12,757

And I think we are starting to see a

shift away from that word, which I like,

00:52:13,071 --> 00:52:13,341

Maya Badham: Yeah.

00:52:13,491 --> 00:52:16,491

That's why we talk obviously about

that stewardship, that guidance that

00:52:16,581 --> 00:52:18,591

it's not about like not giving them

00:52:18,817 --> 00:52:21,187

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

educate, educating, or educator.

00:52:22,071 --> 00:52:23,631

Maya Badham: that, like we said,

that balance has to be there.

00:52:23,631 --> 00:52:27,591

Like you have to be able to live

your life alongside your dog.

00:52:27,591 --> 00:52:30,801

So your dog shouldn't, there shouldn't

be a hierarchy of the dog is now

00:52:30,801 --> 00:52:32,061

over you and you are all you are.

00:52:32,421 --> 00:52:36,351

There should just be, and there's

never gonna be true equality because

00:52:36,351 --> 00:52:40,851

there's a power dynamic because we

have so much control over everything.

00:52:40,851 --> 00:52:43,941

You know, when our dog eats, where

they eat, how much they eat, what they,

00:52:44,001 --> 00:52:45,376

the brand of the food that they eat,

00:52:45,847 --> 00:52:46,837

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

This is true.

00:52:47,111 --> 00:52:51,101

Maya Badham: So with that, and it's

not about saying, oh, that's bad.

00:52:51,101 --> 00:52:54,341

It's about saying where can we give

some sort of agency and choice in

00:52:54,341 --> 00:52:58,001

this kind of, at the minute, this

choiceless goldfish bowl is what I

00:52:58,552 --> 00:52:58,772

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

00:52:59,051 --> 00:53:00,116

Maya Badham: and, and that,

00:53:00,842 --> 00:53:01,282

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I like that.

00:53:01,386 --> 00:53:02,236

Maya Badham: that is what it is.

00:53:03,131 --> 00:53:03,251

Kind

00:53:03,352 --> 00:53:03,642

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:53:04,571 --> 00:53:10,841

Maya Badham: how can we inter into

space that kind of more clinical that

00:53:10,841 --> 00:53:14,021

we're living in with more joy and more

00:53:14,222 --> 00:53:14,342

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

00:53:15,101 --> 00:53:17,741

Maya Badham: to be who they

are, which is a dog, you know,

00:53:18,371 --> 00:53:20,201

that doginess that we love so

00:53:20,342 --> 00:53:20,462

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

00:53:20,741 --> 00:53:25,331

Maya Badham: but yet we

seem to intent on removing.

00:53:25,721 --> 00:53:29,211

It's a really, really weird

cognitive dissonance thing.

00:53:29,211 --> 00:53:32,121

It's like we want a dog, but we

don't want them to be too doglike.

00:53:33,201 --> 00:53:34,376

It's, we want a dog.

00:53:34,396 --> 00:53:37,431

We don't want a dog that barks and

we don't want a dog that digs and

00:53:37,431 --> 00:53:38,601

we don't want a dog that smell.

00:53:38,631 --> 00:53:38,781

We

00:53:38,872 --> 00:53:39,322

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's like,

00:53:41,902 --> 00:53:43,642

it's like you are on

your cake and eating it.

00:53:43,642 --> 00:53:43,822

Like,

00:53:44,691 --> 00:53:45,561

Maya Badham: exactly.

00:53:47,072 --> 00:53:49,022

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

unfortunately that word control is

00:53:49,022 --> 00:53:51,422

quite a negative type word, isn't it?

00:53:51,422 --> 00:53:53,072

You know, I'm not a fan of control.

00:53:54,062 --> 00:53:57,902

What does support look like, Maya,

when it's rooted in partnership?

00:54:00,796 --> 00:54:04,366

Maya Badham: Yeah, on the partnership

plan there's four different, four

00:54:04,366 --> 00:54:08,056

different sections and there's

benevolent guidance, understand impact of

00:54:08,056 --> 00:54:12,796

negative experiences, canine responsive

practice, and appreciate individuality.

00:54:12,796 --> 00:54:15,526

And I'm not gonna go through all

of the detail because we'll be here

00:54:15,526 --> 00:54:17,986

for a while, but, and, and obviously

they, they're free access and

00:54:18,097 --> 00:54:18,337

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that's

00:54:18,346 --> 00:54:18,496

Maya Badham: how

00:54:18,607 --> 00:54:18,897

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: okay.

00:54:19,216 --> 00:54:22,246

Maya Badham: them, but it's

a free access resource.

00:54:22,636 --> 00:54:27,196

But those four things are really at the

core of what good support would look like.

00:54:27,406 --> 00:54:31,786

So, you know, accepting the dog

personally as an emotional being is kind

00:54:31,786 --> 00:54:36,676

of the central core value that to be

on partnership planet you have to have.

00:54:36,946 --> 00:54:38,656

So that's the kind of key one,

00:54:39,032 --> 00:54:39,092

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

00:54:40,006 --> 00:54:43,336

Maya Badham: So that's not just how we

communicate with them, but understanding

00:54:43,336 --> 00:54:44,776

how they communicate with us.

00:54:44,776 --> 00:54:46,546

So having some sort of understanding of

00:54:46,772 --> 00:54:47,372

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

00:54:47,596 --> 00:54:48,586

Maya Badham: language and behaviour.

00:54:49,532 --> 00:54:49,982

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:54:50,102 --> 00:54:50,882

Big on that.

00:54:50,941 --> 00:54:53,731

Maya Badham: it is rooted in what we've

talked about already, so acceptance of

00:54:53,731 --> 00:54:56,161

where the dog is at and the limitations.

00:54:56,311 --> 00:54:57,061

So yes.

00:54:57,161 --> 00:55:02,201

We could get, say for example with

Pore, if I really wanted him to

00:55:02,231 --> 00:55:07,631

become a pub dog, I could get him

there with drill drilling training,

00:55:07,901 --> 00:55:10,801

counter conditioning behaviour.

00:55:11,231 --> 00:55:14,771

And we've done a bit of that, you

know, because I want him to feel safe.

00:55:14,771 --> 00:55:18,521

And so we have done some sort of

training, behaviour modification.

00:55:18,821 --> 00:55:23,051

However, I still know that he

would struggle in that environment.

00:55:23,051 --> 00:55:25,871

He would tolerate it because I've

asked him to, but he wouldn't like it.

00:55:26,321 --> 00:55:28,031

So it's also about accepting

00:55:28,037 --> 00:55:28,257

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

00:55:29,231 --> 00:55:35,681

Maya Badham: even when you have the help,

actually we can get them to hear and

00:55:35,681 --> 00:55:39,641

let's just leave it there rather than

we could technically get them to hear.

00:55:39,731 --> 00:55:40,931

But it, who does that?

00:55:41,546 --> 00:55:42,626

So kind of thing.

00:55:42,866 --> 00:55:43,906

So also about

00:55:44,277 --> 00:55:44,567

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:55:44,866 --> 00:55:47,816

Maya Badham: so protection

around against and negative

00:55:47,816 --> 00:55:49,076

experiences as much as possible.

00:55:49,076 --> 00:55:50,366

So that's that prevention element.

00:55:51,176 --> 00:55:55,096

then has re realistic expectations as

well there, which we've already talked