Welcome to The Yappy Hour powered by Yappily!

In this episode, host Nathan Dunleavy talks with Jo Middleton — Director of Studies at Canine Principles, Principal at the ISCP (International School for Canine Psychology), and MD at the International Institute for Canine Ethics (ICE) — about making dog training ethical, accessible, and effective for real life.

⏱️ Chapters

00:00 Intro: Why education changes everything

02:08 Jo’s journey: rescue roots, ethics, and study leadership

08:24 Consent-based handling & reading “no” in canine body language

14:40 Confidence vs. competence: imposter syndrome in pet pros

18:55 Biggest gaps: nutrition, first aid, equipment, sleep, pain

25:30 Guardians: how to find ethical help you can trust

31:10 Equipment that protects bodies (two-point harnesses)

35:42 Quick-fix culture vs. real behaviour change

40:05 Rehoming support: beyond the rigid “3-3-3” timeline

45:18 Student-friendly learning: CPD hubs, live courses, tutors

50:12 Community & mentorship: finding your voice

54:10 What’s next: CPD accreditation, writer’s retreat, conferences

58:20 Final message: compassion ≠ weakness — it’s strength

Key topics

Ethical dog training & consent-based handling

Canine body language and advocacy at home

Practical CPD routes for trainers, walkers, groomers, vets/vet nurses

Nutrition, pain, sleep, and welfare basics that change behaviour

Safer walking equipment vs. collars/chains/slip leads

Rehoming support that adapts to the individual dog

Confidence & mindset for ethical pet professionals

📚 Resources mentioned

Canine Principles — ethical courses, CPD, first aid

ISCP — canine psychology diplomas; free bite-sized communication course

International Institute for Canine Ethics (ICE) — professional membership, Ethical Canine Professional Register, Three Stages of Adjustment resource

🙌 If this helped you, please like, subscribe, and comment with your biggest takeaway. Share this with a dog guardian or pet pro who’d love ethical, science-based guidance.

Find local and ethical dog trainers, dog behaviourists, dog walkers, groomers, dog pros and pet businesses near you.  Yappily is the UK directory built to help you find trusted pet care professionals you can feel good about working with.

📍 Search verified and trusted listings on Yappily

Welcome to another episode of The

Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily.

2

I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and

today I'm joined by the truly inspiring

3

Jo Middleton, director of Studies

at Canine Principles Principal at

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the ISCP and Managing Director at.

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The IICE or ICE and all round trailblazer

when it comes to education and ethics

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in the dog world, whether you are a pet

guardian wanting to understand your dog

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better, or a dog professional looking

to grow your skills, Jo's work has

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likely touched your journey in some way.

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We are diving into how education

empowers dog praise, why

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continued learning matters, and

how ethical accessible training.

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Benefits dogs.

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They're humans and the entire industry.

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So grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Welcome back to The Yappy

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Hour, powered by Yappily.

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I'm your host, Nathan D.

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Levy, and I'm so excited to bring you

another episode of The Yappy Hour.

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Today.

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Joining me is Jo Middleton.

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Welcome to the Yappy

Jo, how are you doing,

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Jo Middleton: Hi, Nathan.

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I'm all good.

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Thank you.

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Really excited to be here.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Great.

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Thanks for joining us.

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One thing I forgot to say before

we hit record is that it does come

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out of a little message saying that

the quality isn't very good, but

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you don't have to worry about that.

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'cause when it's all played back and

edited, it's all absolutely fine.

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So yeah, so we've had a few

internet problems and bits and

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pieces and that, but then we've.

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You know, we are pros.

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We can, we can do this.

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So Jo, I'm so excited to chat

with you today and to learn

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more about you and your journey.

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But for anyone who doesn't know you yet,

could you give us the whirlwind Jo intro.

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So here you are, what you do,

and what keeps you so passionate

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about canine education.

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Jo Middleton: So my name's Jamie

Tilton and I head up the International

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Institute for Canine Ethics, the

International School for Canine

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Psychology and Canine Principles.

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I've.

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Been in the doggy world

a very, very long time.

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Actually quarter of a century.

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I'd say quarter of a century.

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More in the, ethical doggy world.

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Whereas before that I grew up

around the show ring and it

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was very much aversive methods.

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It was back in the Barbara Woodhouse days.

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Yeah.

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And as a child, you going to ring craft

classes and obedience classes, it was

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not at all in line with my values.

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So.

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Got involved in the rescue world back

kind of 99, millennium and then retrained.

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I was told never to work with

children never to work with children.

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Never to work with dogs because

I'd never make any money.

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So I had to get a proper job as a child.

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That's what I was told.

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So I went down the corporate route.

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I'm bilingual French English.

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Yeah, it is.

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It set, sets you up with some skills,

doesn't it, to that you can bring forward.

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Yeah, but I'm bilingual French English

was brought up bilingually and so I

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worked in Paris for quite a while and,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: wow.

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Jo Middleton: Did lots of different

bits and bobs but the dogs are

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always where my heart's been.

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Been around the education world for for

quite a while and been self-employed.

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Set up my first business in 2000 when

I was pregnant with my eldest daughter.

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Yeah, nothing better to do.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I'm pregnant.

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I'll just set up a business.

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Jo Middleton: Why not?

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It was wonderful.

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I had lots of support.

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Yeah, I did.

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Had lots of support from the Prince's

trust and the Chamber of Commerce.

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A really cool, cool journey.

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I.

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Yeah.

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So I guess what keeps me passionate

is my work in rescue and that you

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see things that you can't unsee.

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And it's it's not an area that

in all the years that I've, I've

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worked in rescue from kind of kennel

assessments, microchipping, transport

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home checks through to trustee level.

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I don't see any change over all

the years that I've been involved.

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So that's a massive area that

keeps the fire burning in my

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belly to keep educating really.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Brilliant.

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Oh great.

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I'd love, I learned some things that

I didn't know about, 'cause obviously

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we haven't known each other that

long, but in the last year or so.

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But it's always great getting,

I love a bit of history and

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I feel like all these great

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Jo Middleton: I'm not that old Nathan.

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A bit history.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: no.

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You know what I mean?

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Like, I love what I mean is that I

love people that have got a story,

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Jo Middleton: Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

you know, a story behind them.

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Like, and I was just about to say

that, you know, I speak to all these

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great people that have been in the

industry for a little bit longer than me

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because I've only, I feel like a baby.

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I've only been in the

industry seven years.

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And then I speak to all you great people

and you've been, you know, you've been

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in the industry for a lot longer and it's

just so great just to hear, you know,

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your stories rather than your histories.

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As to why you

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Jo Middleton: the fossil out.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

as to why you fell into it maybe,

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but some similarities there.

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'cause I came from a corporate

background in banking, corporate

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business banking, and I, I use that now

in my mentoring and stuff, so perfect.

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Thank you so much for

your whirlwind intro.

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So we're gonna move on

to our next question.

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So I love this 'cause you had not.

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You head up, not only one,

but multiple organizations.

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We've got canine principles

the ISCP and is O-I-I-C-E.

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What is your driving force

behind these platforms, Jo?

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Jo Middleton: I guess

each platform exists to

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fill a gap where I wish I'd had additional

support myself going becoming a.

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Sort of, well, we never

stop learning, do we?

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It's every day's a school day

and every single individual dog,

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teachers us something different.

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But canine principles is all

about the accessible online

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ethical learning platform.

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Whether you are a dog guardian and you've

got a dog that maybe is pulling on the

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lead and you want some guidance around

how to help stop that, but without.

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Hurting the dog emotionally or

physically, or whether you are a dog

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professional and you're looking for

a formal off quail qualification.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

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Jo Middleton: Canine principle

is kind of a one stop shop for

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everything, whereas the international

school for canine Psychology.

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I mean, the ISCP and I have

known each other since birth

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since the ICPs birth, not mine.

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Because I know, I know Lisa Tenson

Dolma, the founder and I, I, she

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lived, she's not far away from me.

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And so,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

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Jo Middleton: we, we've been around

each other for, for a long time.

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The ICP and I when, when she founded it.

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So the ISEP is more about the

psychology side of things.

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Yes, we've got a lot of behaviour

stuff and we really focus on making

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sure that everything is done where

there's a tutor accessible one-to-one.

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As well as the online learning, but

it's really a heart-centered diploma

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school for professionals who really

want to get on the same geek level

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because we're all geeks.

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And and then the International Institute

for Canine Ethics, which obviously

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you are hosting some of our member

meetings as well, which is fabulous.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jo Middleton: The, the International

Institute for Canine Ethics, it

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really sort of bridges the emotional

and the ethical side of care.

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So it's for every.

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Everyone who comes into contact with

dogs as part of their day-to-day role.

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So whether you are a receptionist at

a veterinary practice, whether you are

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a canine hydro, whether you're a vet

nurse, whether you are a vet, whether

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you are a dog walker, borderer, groomer,

behaviourist, trainer, if you come

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into dog contact with dogs as part of

your day-to-day role, then you need

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to understand consent based handling.

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You need to understand how to

recognize the signs when a dog's

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saying no and what alternatives.

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Can be done around that.

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So the International Institute

for Canine Ethics is an.

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A professional membership organization

that is really, really integral.

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And we've just launched our Ethical

Canine Professional Register.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Jo Middleton: assessing organization.

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I.

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For the A BTC, so we can support people

in going down that pathway as well.

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And there are so many exciting things

in the pipeline for the members at ice,

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which I'm not able to disclose just yet,

but there are lots of exciting things.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I might have to tap you up

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for that at the end as well.

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That's one of my questions, but No, you

can, you can, you can tell us what you

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can, but no, I love being part of ice.

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Love you know, my mentoring.

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Business is obviously a, a proud

partner and I obviously help

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Jo Middleton: Yep.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

the groups on Facebook and

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host some of the meetings.

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But no, I love everything it stands for.

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And I liked

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Jo Middleton: Hmm.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

as well, is that we're continually

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learning from our own dogs, aren't we?

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And the dogs we

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Jo Middleton: Yeah

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: but as.

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canine professionals, I dunno

about you, but I used to always

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be a bit of a coarse junkie.

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We're always learning, all

of us are always learning.

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We're always striving to be the best

version of ourself for caregivers

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and their, you know, their pets.

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And yeah, I used to get like, you know,

that our whole shiny new course syndrome

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and then had to sort of stop myself

recently and decide, well, I need to

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actually finish some of these courses.

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Jo Middleton: I gotta catch up on myself.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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But as

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Jo Middleton: Hmm.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

we are continually investing in

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our own CPD, our own education.

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And that's great that we've got sort of

platforms and organizations like Canine

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Principles and ICE to help with that.

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So thank you so much for telling

us a bit more around those.

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And moving on to our next section,

which leads in nicely as to why

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education changes everything.

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Jo, my first question is, why is education

such a game changer in the dog world?

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Especially for us pet pros.

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Jo Middleton: It is quite a layered

response to that question, I guess,

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because one is, I don't know if you've

ever watched a film and then watched it

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a second time and seen things that you

didn't see the first time or heard things

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that you didn't hear the first time It.

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It's really the same with

education, so you can hear the same.

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Messaging, you can hear the same learn

the same thing multiple times, but you'll

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take what you need from it at that time

and, and what's relevant to you, the dogs

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that you are around at that time, and

where your mindset is at at that time.

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One of the wonderful things with

the International Institute.

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Institute for canine ethics is that we

are able to help professionals to have the

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support to springboard their businesses

from and really develop and grow.

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And that's a, a really key part because

what we see so often with ethical dog

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professionals and canine professionals

who strive to be the best versions

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of themselves that they can because

they genuinely do deeply care about.

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The dogs that they're working with

and the service that they're providing

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is we see massive imposter syndrome.

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When you're saying about

being a coarse junkie.

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Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely.

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Course junkie number one over here.

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But what we can't do is let

let our learning go sort of.

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We play it down a lot and what we need

to do is have a look at even some of the

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major dog food brands that aren't in line

with our values and maybe don't provide

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the nutritious value that they should.

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That's a great example.

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They've got the big marketing budgets.

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And their confidence is

trumping the competence of the

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food that they're providing.

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And we see that sometimes in the dog

world where maybe someone who isn't

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practicing ethically or isn't setting

the dogs up for emotional safety.

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With the methods that they're using.

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They may have the confidence, but they

haven't done the progression pathway.

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They haven't done the

learning, the education.

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They don't continue to strive to be the

best version of themselves that they can

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be and have that competence element I.

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But because they're confident and

they're visible it's it's maybe

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seen that they are the go-to expert.

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So, because so many dog professionals

do really care deeply and the

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ethical practices in the consent

based practices are, are, are really

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the way forwards for the future of,

of dog professionals everywhere.

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To provide access to the right

learning means that we are able to

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give the knowledge of the language,

the context, the platform really to be

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able to really stop reacting and start.

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Really embracing how we are able to

support dogs and their guardians moving

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forwards and to find our voices and

speak out for the dogs because if we

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don't advocate for them then we're

not able to really, truly support the

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dogs in having the emotional safety

and the the ability to be heard.

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So that's why I'm one of the

reasons why I'm so passionate.

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But also

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I can waffle about it for days.

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Nathan,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

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It.

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It it, I love it.

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Jo Middleton: I, it is so important

to me to really understand the, the

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gaps in our knowledge and identify

them, and then focus on filling

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those gaps, but also to keep our

learning current because there are new

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jo Middleton: being

published all the time.

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There are new.

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Books coming out all the

time, new research coming out.

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So it's really important for us

to keep our learning current and

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to understand the nervous system,

to understand pain behaviours, to

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understand how much sleep a dog needs.

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It, it's just the foundational

stuff that we need to really keep

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reinforcing that dogs should be

on two point of contact harnesses.

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So they've got the range of

movement and their spine and

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their neck are in alignment.

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They shouldn't have their airways.

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Restricted and pressure

put on their trackers.

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And the OC inocular pressure exacerbated

with tools like slip leads, choke chains,

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or even just a flat collar and lead.

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Just the, the nutrition side, the

sleep side, making sure a dog's teeth

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are checked so they're not in pain.

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All of these knowledge dot dots,

we need to make sure that we are

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keeping our knowledge current and

building on those foundations so

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that we're able to communicate to

guardians without them feeling judged

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from an educational standpoint.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Brilliant.

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That leads us nicer to my next question,

but I just wanted to touch on, when

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you mentioned about imposter syndrome.

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It is, it is rife

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Jo Middleton: Rife.

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Hmm

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

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With like some of my mentees I

work with as well but also myself,

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like obviously going, coming from

a corporate background when I was.

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Actively practicing as a dog trainer,

I'd never felt imposter syndrome

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until I became a dog trainer in all my

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Jo Middleton: hmm.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: career.

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It was, it was ridiculous.

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And obviously when you are new into the

industry, it's a mindful, but yeah, and

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it's great that there's like places like.

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Canine principles and ICE

that you can get the correct

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ethical advice and the courses.

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But it, yeah, it was, it was really a bit

of a mindful when I first started out and

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like I said, didn't in experience imposter

syndrome until I became a dog trainer.

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But what would you say are the biggest

knowledge gaps that still exist even for

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new pet pros or even experienced ones?

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Jo?

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Jo Middleton: I think the nutrition side

of things, I is one that is constantly

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evolving and new research coming out.

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It is I.

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Yeah, it is.

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And it's an area that with the

International School of Canine Psychology,

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we've got a level three diploma.

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Our tutor on that is a

wonderful scientist who's.

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Absolutely fantastic.

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And we've got some cool stuff

planned to help support people

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in better understanding.

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How to make sure that your

dog's nutritional needs are met.

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What we find is that people

are scared to experiment.

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They'd rather trust the marketing

hype that I've talked about.

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Whereas what with the knowledge that

we're able to provide through that

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level three diploma we're, we're able

to make sure that you are well equipped

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to make sure that your client's dogs or

your own dogs have got the nutritional

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values that they need in their food.

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I think.

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For me to.

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Imagine that I'd always fed my

children McDonald's day in, day out.

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Other junk food brands are available, but

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jo Middleton: I don't

wanna get in trouble.

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Yeah.

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But if I just fed them e numbers

or processed foods all the

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time not only does well yeah.

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The, the cognitive impact within

the, the brain doesn't have what it

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needs to function to its optimum.

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And the physical, as well.

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And it's no different with our

dogs if they're not having their

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nutritional needs met either, but

they have no control over that.

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We are the ones that

control what they're eating.

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They.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's the thing.

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Yeah.

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Jo Middleton: They can't self select.

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Which is one of the reasons I love

Sohar Cognos, but that's a whole

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different rabbit hole to go down.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It is.

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Yeah,

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it certainly

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Jo Middleton: It is.

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But yeah, I'd say nutrition is

probably the biggest gap that we see.

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And the one that always, sort of grieves

me is when I'm out and about and I see

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dogs literally hanging themselves or,

or strangle being strangled because

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they're not on walking equipment.

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That it is going to support

their balance, their body, and it

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Jo Middleton: putting that

pressure around their necks.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The, the nutrition one, it's,

it is crazy 'cause it's such a

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controversial subject as well.

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And it's such a beast and like

you said, it's forever evolving.

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Jo Middleton: Mm.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: and.

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And a lot of what comes up

in this podcast is that, you

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know, like the public as well.

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Like you don't know what you don't know.

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So until

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Jo Middleton: Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: try and

educate them, know, it's all about, it

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comes back down to education all the time.

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You know, the walking

equipment and the nutrition.

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Jo Middleton: and not judging

and not criticizing guardians

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who have got it wrong, or pet

professionals who have been misled.

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I, I'd love to know some statistics.

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I've no idea how we'd get them, but

I'd love to know some statistics around

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how the, increase of reels and TikTok

videos has impacted the quick fix view

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that we seem to have as a nation now.

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Because the, what you see in a

60, 92nd reel is it is not real.

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It is not real life.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's smart.

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That

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Jo Middleton: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The real's not real.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah, I

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Jo Middleton: Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

unfortunately we are in a, we are in

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a space now, like we do want the quick

fixes and we, we are not prepared

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to put in the work unfortunately.

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And

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Jo Middleton: Mm

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

it like on TV or TikTok and Yeah,

399

unfortunately people just are busy.

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You know, we're

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Jo Middleton: mm

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: and

we just, people just wanna just, yeah.

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Quickly get the quick

fixes, unfortunately.

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Jo Middleton: But then if

you flip that, oh, sorry.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

no, you go my love.

406

Go on.

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Jo Middleton: If you flip that and think

if I was fostering a child, a toddler that

408

had been through significant trauma and

they had no control, I was responsible

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for providing them with the nutrition.

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I was responsible for making sure

that they were properly clothed,

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they were safe in the adult

world that they were living in.

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I would not be expecting a quick fix or

some magic wand that was going to make

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that child do, as it was told, conform

to whatever boundaries I put in place,

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and I would definitely not be expecting

to put something on that child that would

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electrocute it, nor would I be expecting

to put some sort of noose around its neck.

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It's, it's when you think about it in

those terms, the dogs don't have choices.

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It's up to us to create environments

in which they are able to make

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choices safely so that they're feeling

empowered and they've got that agency

419

and they're able to feel self-worth

and grow their self-confidence and,

420

and build the bond with humans.

421

If we are constantly.

422

Coming from a place of do, as I say or

else you're going to get hurt, that's

423

not going for any free thinking being,

that's not going to set them up for

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emotional safety or a feeling of success.

425

So I think it's really important from.

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The education point of view that we

carry on planting the seeds and we carry

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on making sure that we're being the

advocates for our dogs that we need to be.

428

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, definitely really big on

429

advocacy and being your dog superhero.

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Thank you so much.

431

So talking,

432

Jo Middleton: I.

433

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

on to canine principles.

434

So canine Principles is known for

its ethical science-based content.

435

How do you go about making education

truly accessible and inclusive?

436

Jo?

437

Jo Middleton: Hmm.

438

I think what we really need to focus on is

making sure that we are student centric in

439

our approach with everything that we do.

440

We, I.

441

Have got off qual formal qualifications.

442

But we also have a massive

range of other courses as well.

443

So what we've introduced

this year is live courses.

444

So we've delivered the progressive dog

rehab specialist course live so that

445

it's more interactive so that people

are able to ask questions, chat, and

446

just really make sure that we are being

meeting all different learning styles.

447

So you, you've got the

workbooks, you've got the texts.

448

Stuff, the copy for people that

like to print things out, highlight,

449

scribble all over them like me.

450

But then you've also got the

post-it notes everywhere.

451

But then you've also got the video

and the interaction element as well.

452

So that's something new that

we've introduced this year.

453

We've also got an unlimited.

454

CPD Skill hub, so it's

a monthly membership.

455

You get a monthly guest webinar.

456

From a, a guest expert that comes in

and delivers amazing content, but you've

457

got the playback to watch as long as

you are a member of the CPD skills hub.

458

So you've got unlimited CPD, you

get a certificate for each course,

459

workshop or webinar that you

complete within the CPD skills hub,

460

but you have got access to that at

whatever pace or whatever learning.

461

Style that you need to to have met.

462

You can get that through

the CPD skill hub.

463

It's not rushed.

464

It's not pressured.

465

It's up to you and you can choose cherry

pick what you want or need at that time.

466

So for example, if you are.

467

Going to see a dog that's

displaying reactive behaviours.

468

You can search a CPD scar hub to find

something that's going to support

469

you in making sure, even if you're

just refreshing knowledge that

470

you've already gained or you want

a little confidence boost, you've

471

got those resources the, for you.

472

And then the final thing, I guess the

final way that we, we make sure that.

473

Everyone is really part of the

Canine principles community

474

is our student Facebook group.

475

So

476

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

477

Yeah.

478

Jo Middleton: it, if you're in

the group, there's really no

479

such thing as a silly question.

480

And I know we all feel sometimes,

oh no, it might be a silly question.

481

Just post anonymously if you think

it's gonna be, as you're gonna

482

get some backlash off it, or you

don't want to ask it as yourself.

483

Just post anonymously and get people's

feedback because the dog world.

484

Can be quite a cruel place

sometimes as a dog professional,

485

everyone is very passionate.

486

Everyone everyone you would like to

think would be in it for the best

487

interest of the dogs, but sometimes

things do get a bit heated and if you've.

488

Typed something out and deleted it again

and thought, no, I'm not gonna post that.

489

Then canine principles is definitely

the place for you to be learning

490

because we will support you in making

sure that you are reaching your full

491

potential, no matter whether you want

to follow the traditional behavioural

492

route and go up to your, your level

five, your level six, or whether you

493

want to niche into something more like.

494

Trauma reactivity, nutrition

anxiety, something like that.

495

Canine principles is

the place for you there.

496

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

brilliant.

497

That Facebook group, I think has

got about 60,000 members as well.

498

It's crazy.

499

So

500

Jo Middleton: has, yeah,

the page has, yeah.

501

We've got quite a big following.

502

Yeah.

503

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

of course.

504

Yeah.

505

Jo Middleton: Yeah.

506

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

study group and then the, the page.

507

Yeah.

508

Wow.

509

Jo Middleton: Yeah.

510

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's, it's brilliant.

511

So moving on to our next section,

which is all about dog parents.

512

So for any dog, parents guardians that

may be listening, hopefully they are.

513

Our first question is, do you think pet

guardians should engage in dog training,

514

behaviour education too, even if they're

not in inverted commas in the industry.

515

Jo Middleton: Oh my goodness.

516

Yes.

517

You are.

518

Oh, absolutely.

519

So.

520

I believe controversially to some that

training the human is more important

521

than training the dog because the dog

already really knows its behaviour.

522

What we are doing by training.

523

The human is making sure that

they're being consistent with how

524

they're showing up for their dog.

525

Making sure that the dog isn't

getting one message from one member

526

of the family and one member from

another one message from another.

527

Even just the body language.

528

Nevermind the verbal cues.

529

Cues.

530

So if you are a dog guardian,

you are with your dog 24 7.

531

Sort of day in, day out, apart from

if you have to pop out when you are

532

working with a behaviourist or a dog

walker comes in once a day or any

533

professional, they're with your dog

for a tiny little limited amount.

534

They're with you and your dog for

that tiny little limited amount.

535

So the more that you

can understand as a dog.

536

Guardian about your dog's

communication and their needs.

537

The less confusion they'll be, the

less conflict they'll be, the less

538

stress they'll be for you and your dog.

539

But most importantly, it will be that

trust bond that your building with your

540

dog, and that is such a beautiful thing.

541

I talk about paying into the emotional

bank account of our dogs and.

542

We need to pay into their

emotional bank accounts before

543

we can ask anything from them.

544

So before we can make a withdrawal

from a banking background,

545

it's quite appropriate for you.

546

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

love, love that analogy.

547

Jo Middleton: But we do, we, I

pinched that, that's not mine.

548

I dunno which book it was.

549

I read that that was in, but it was

but we, we, we need to make sure

550

that we are constantly paying into

their emotional bank account so that

551

we've got that trust bond with them.

552

'cause if you are just trying to ask

them for something and you've got no

553

bond, it, it makes things really tricky.

554

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

555

Yeah, definitely.

556

Absolutely

557

Jo Middleton: I.

558

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Thank you so much.

559

So what would you say is a common

myth about dog behaviour that you

560

wish everyone knew wasn't true?

561

Jo Middleton: Just the one,

562

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh, wow.

563

Yeah, you could do as many as you

564

Jo Middleton: I think, I think the biggest

one is still dominance theory and that

565

dogs are trying to be the boss of us.

566

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I know.

567

Jo Middleton: they're not.

568

They're trying their hardest to

cope in a, a world that they don't

569

understand, a world that's confusing.

570

And if a dog's struggling, they

really need safety and understanding.

571

They don't need you to control them.

572

They're not trying to be the boss of you.

573

They're, they're struggling

and they're communicating with

574

you that they're struggling.

575

So I'd say that's probably the biggest

myth that I would love to see busted.

576

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And

I think it's because like they see

577

a dog try to mount another dog and

oh, they're trying to dominate it.

578

But you know, we know, and hopefully

a lot of people do and will take away

579

from this, is that if a dog's over

aroused, like their bucket's fallen,

580

overflowing, they will mount another dog

581

Jo Middleton: Yeah.

582

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

trying to release that arousal.

583

But you know, like, again, going back

to, we dunno, what we don't know is that

584

people think, oh, he, he's mounting him

or how he's just trying to dominate the

585

dog and that's not what they're doing.

586

Jo Middleton: Mm.

587

Also I think, like things come

generational, Lee, don't they?

588

They come down generations and it's

what granddad said, what mom said,

589

and now what you've, you are saying.

590

But I was on a podcast last night with

Debbie Luckin from Kids Around Dogs

591

and she was saying, just remember that

your children are always watching.

592

They're always, they're like little.

593

Sponges kind of thing.

594

They're always watching.

595

Always listening.

596

And our dogs are too, and we

need to be really careful.

597

Mm

598

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's, that's, I love that.

599

That's really, that's really interesting.

600

What advice, Jay, would you give to

any pet parent dog guardian, feeling

601

overwhelmed or in, or unsure who to trust

when it comes to training advice online?

602

Jo Middleton: mm.

603

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I.

604

Jo Middleton: I'd probably

say start trusting your gut.

605

If it doesn't sit right with

you, then trust your gut.

606

Look for professionals who really do.

607

Study with ethical organizations like

Canine Principals in the international

608

school for canine psychology.

609

Obviously I'm biased, but there

are others out there as well.

610

But we want to make sure that

we're using professionals who, and

611

creating almost a circle of care

of professionals for each dog.

612

So a vet, maybe a hydro, maybe a physio.

613

So you've got those.

614

Ethical professionals that you can call

on to support your dog when you need to.

615

Don't wait for something to crop up.

616

And then you are looking

for the professional.

617

Just have those professionals follow them.

618

Do your research before you need

them, and never be afraid to ask for a

619

second opinion, even if it's your vet.

620

We, we tend to trust our vets because

they are the professional, but.

621

Every vet has different

specialisms and every vet.

622

It's not possible for a

human to know everything.

623

So you are perfectly within your rights

to go to a different veterinary practice.

624

If something doesn't sit right

with you you're perfectly within

625

your rights to ring around.

626

And like for example, my little staffy

girl, Lola, had something neurological

627

going on and I wasn't comfortable

with the, I just, I just wanted the

628

peace of mind of a second opinion

because I didn't want to put to sleep.

629

And I wanted to make sure

it was the right choice.

630

So I rang around and asked.

631

Do you have a vet who specializes in this?

632

And three practices said

no, and one said yes.

633

So I went and saw that veterinary

professional at that practice, and

634

then I also rang our local veterinary

hospital and paid to have a Zoom call

635

with their specialist there as well.

636

But it just, you are, people don't

realize that you are able to do that and

637

you are able to, you, you are in charge.

638

You are the customer.

639

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

640

Jo Middleton: So you are able

to make those choices, and if it

641

doesn't sit right, trust your gut.

642

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

643

Yeah.

644

It is, it is like a mindful with all the

conflicting advice, but luckily we've

645

got like, you know, platforms like canine

principles, the ICP and I but yeah, I,

646

Jo Middleton: Oh,

647

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I've act, I've, God, am I lovely.

648

Jo Middleton: We've got the Ethical

Canine Professional Register on

649

the if you go to canine ethics.org,

650

look for professionals who

are listed on the It is live.

651

Yes.

652

Go on.

653

Go on canine ethics.org

654

and click on register and you'll see.

655

But you'll be able to find one near you.

656

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, yeah, I'm on that.

657

I'll go and check.

658

I'll go and check

659

Jo Middleton: Yay.

660

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: as well.

661

Yeah.

662

Brilliant.

663

And yeah, I was gonna say, I got

a second opinion with my dog, LIO.

664

I talk about a lot on it 'cause

he's got sa and chronic back pain.

665

But we did, we had a referral and

we went to one specialist hospital,

666

but then I went to another one.

667

It's just for that

668

Jo Middleton: Mm-hmm.

669

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

peace of mind,

670

Jo Middleton: Yeah.

671

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

So moving on to our next section,

672

which is all about how us pet

pros can keep growing, Jo.

673

So for dog walkers like myself, pet

sitters, groomers, trainers, tuning

674

in, where do they start if they

want to level up their knowledge?

675

Jo Middleton: I'd go over to the

ISCP International School for

676

canine psychology, the iscp.com

677

and grab the free course on

canine bite-sized communication.

678

I think that's a brilliant place to start.

679

We need to understand dog's,

body languages and you should

680

also always have a current canine

first aid certificate as well.

681

So if you go over, yeah, really important.

682

If you go over to canine principles.com,

683

you can get your first aid

certificate over there.

684

But it's important that you

keep it current because, things

685

change, guidance changes,

686

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: do.

687

Jo Middleton: And best practice changes.

688

And also to maybe think about exploring

more trauma-informed approaches.

689

Maybe look at your bite-sized

CPD, the CPD skill hub.

690

I know like it's not about promoting,

but I'm just thinking what we've

691

got in our armory that could help.

692

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: so good.

693

Jo Middleton: There's, there's just

so much sort of education stuff

694

that you could be doing, but I'd

say the body language, that free

695

free course with the ISCP and the

first aid would be the essentials.

696

But also to continue growing just.

697

I guess remember that when you are

feeling those, that mind monkey

698

chatter of I'm not good enough.

699

Who am I to do that?

700

Or that sort of stuff that your brain

tells you just to remember that that voice

701

is, it's actually a sign that you care.

702

And it's because you care that you

are feeling that imposter syndrome.

703

So find your crowd, find find your people.

704

We've got amazing communities

that you can join.

705

Find them because.

706

They will be your sanity.

707

In times when, when you are really

doubting yourself, that community, that

708

mentorship it is just absolutely second

to none because it can be quite a lonely

709

road sometimes out there in the dog world.

710

I,

711

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

712

And I think, like you said, as dog, as

pet professionals, we do care a lot.

713

That's

714

Jo Middleton: hmm.

715

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

we do what we do, but we can then

716

suffer from like compassion fatigue.

717

And it's important to get

around people that get it.

718

Like you say,

719

Jo Middleton: Yeah.

720

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

your your gang, find your community.

721

So what would be the advice to someone

who does feel a bit stuck or like an

722

imposter in their pet care career?

723

Jo Middleton: Ooh.

724

Okay.

725

So back in 2000 and.

726

Seven.

727

I fled an abusive relationship,

moved across to a different part of

728

the country and was homeless with

two children under the age of six.

729

I had to do an awful lot of work on my

mindset and an awful lot of rebuilding.

730

Everything.

731

And I read a book called Change Your

Life in Seven Days by Paul McKenna.

732

And you read a chapter a

day for the seven days.

733

And I'm not saying in that seven days,

ma magically my life transformed.

734

But I swear that book was.

735

Absolutely pivotal for me.

736

It comes with a hypnosis that

you can access now on YouTube.

737

It's a 30 minute hypnosis you

listen to morning and night.

738

And yeah, I, I'd say listen to that,

read that book and practice some

739

of the techniques that he teaches

you and yeah, a game changer.

740

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

741

Wow.

742

Thank you.

743

Brilliant.

744

And how we've already mentioned this a

little bit, but how important is community

745

and mentorship in learning in your view?

746

Jo Middleton: Oh, it is just a

lot of our students come to us.

747

In sort of as mature students.

748

So maybe they've been out of education

for many years or maybe they have got

749

NeuroD diversities that weren't recognized

in the traditional educational system.

750

What we've got with our community,

it brings perspective, it brings

751

encouragement, it brings the motivation.

752

It can give you the accountability.

753

You've got your tutor that you can

reach out to whenever you you want

754

to, but having that community of your

peers and just to say things like, like

755

I'm writing a book at the moment, I.

756

I'm in the canine principles has got

a writer's course, gerdon, who you've

757

had on the podcast, heads that up.

758

And just to be in the, the writer's

group that we've got, and for me

759

to be able to say, oh, I haven't

written anything this week.

760

And someone to say something like.

761

Crack on then, which is,

762

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

crack the whip.

763

Jo Middleton: yeah.

764

Or, or j

765

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

they, I thought you were gonna say, oh.

766

They were like, oh, it's all right.

767

Don't worry.

768

But

769

Jo Middleton: no trot on.

770

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: on.

771

Jo Middleton: But just to have some

accountability or, or for someone to

772

say, don't worry, I haven't either.

773

And, and like say she'll

be accountability buddy.

774

Or you know, just to have that sort of.

775

Ongoing support from people

who are walking the same path.

776

If you, as you or have walked

that path is just super cool.

777

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

778

So you say that writing,

that writing circle is part

779

of canine principles, is it?

780

Jo Middleton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

781

So we've got the,

782

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

All right.

783

Jo Middleton: Yeah and we've got a

writer's retreat coming up in October

784

as well, which is gonna be super cool.

785

Yeah.

786

Jay and I are leading it 'cause we're

both both published authors darling.

787

So,

788

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yes you are.

789

Yes.

790

Jo Middleton: yeah.

791

So it's gonna be super cool.

792

Hope you can come.

793

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

794

Well listen out for more about that.

795

Okay.

796

So just moving on to our next section.

797

And then we're, we've not,

well we'll be wrapping up soon.

798

We've literally sailed through this one.

799

So values led learning, so the

IICE ICE and the ISCP are known

800

for their ethical framework.

801

are values like consent,

compassion, and individuality?

802

That's a big one at the core

of the way you teach Jo.

803

Jo Middleton: Dogs are sentient beings.

804

They're not robots.

805

They're, they feel they have.

806

Basic needs, but they have

layers on top of that.

807

So they deserve autonomy.

808

They deserve respect.

809

They deserve to be heard

when they're saying no.

810

And professionals deserve training.

811

That doesn't put them against the.

812

Animals that they love

and they want to help.

813

So the, I guess the values, they're

not sort of extra icing on the cake.

814

They're really the foundation of

truly ethical work that we do.

815

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

816

Jo Middleton: I.

817

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, yeah.

818

Brilliant.

819

Thank you.

820

So how can education be part

of creating a more ethical and

821

emotionally safer pet industry?

822

Jo, I.

823

Jo Middleton: Ooh, GLI me.

824

How can education be part

825

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: part

826

Jo Middleton: sorry.

827

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: No, no.

828

That's cool.

829

How can education be part of

creating a more ethical and

830

emotionally safer pet industry?

831

Jo Middleton: I guess

it's a cultural shift.

832

And we want it to become the norm.

833

It should be the norm and it.

834

When we teach ethically,

we are changing culture.

835

We are showing up and coming.

836

Dog professionals.

837

That control isn't power.

838

The, the compassion

element is the true power.

839

And we are really sort of.

840

Picking apart and dismantling the

outdated, harmful former norms, if you

841

like, that were the Barbara Woodhouse

days, the CAEs and Lamb sort of.

842

And, and there are many, sadly still out

there who promote aversive methods, but

843

education is really that cultural shift

and forming a more, a more compassionate

844

core of dog professionals that is

the new normal, as opposed to the dog

845

professionals who maybe are still out

there supporting the use of various tools

846

or, or methods that harm a dog, not just

physically, but emotionally as well.

847

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

848

Yeah.

849

It's a shame that that's still

going on, but we just need to keep

850

flow flying that ethical flag.

851

So great.

852

Jo Middleton: Yeah.

853

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: We're

gonna start wrapping up this episode.

854

It's been packed full of so

much information I've absolutely

855

loved you know speaking with you.

856

So moving on to our final section,

which is all about looking ahead.

857

what's next for you, Jo Canine principles.

858

ICE and the ISCP.

859

exciting

860

Jo Middleton: all the secrets.

861

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Any, any exciting projects or

862

future hopes that you can share?

863

Any additional exciting projects

or future hopes or anything you

864

Jo Middleton: Absolutely.

865

Absolutely.

866

Yes, definitely.

867

So the Progressive Dog Rehab Specialist

course that we delivered live a few

868

weeks ago is going through the CPD

accreditation process, so that'll

869

be formally accredited and rolled

out as a formal CPD accreditation

870

with canine principles, which is.

871

Mega exciting.

872

And we've also got our writer's

retreat as well coming up in October,

873

which is really, really cool.

874

So that's going to be co-presented

by Jay Gerin and I, save the

875

date, 13th of June, 2026.

876

Harborough University, the

Canine Principles conference.

877

Which yeah.

878

Oh yeah, that's, hmm.

879

That I went to.

880

Oh, so exciting.

881

The lineup.

882

But.

883

What was really funny was we

went to, to view the venue.

884

I went with my husband

and I was like, I'm sold.

885

I need to study here.

886

I need, and he's like, oh, brilliant.

887

Yeah, yeah, you do that.

888

And I, hold on.

889

You do realize that I won't be

at home like Monday to Friday.

890

He's like, yeah, you go.

891

I, I'm not quite sure how to take that.

892

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Where, where is it?

893

Well, you know, he's, he's

obviously wants to support you.

894

Where is it?

895

Not heard?

896

Tell,

897

Jo Middleton: Harre.

898

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I've not heard of it before.

899

Har.

900

Jo Middleton: Oh, it's,

yeah, Gloucestershire.

901

Really, really cool place.

902

Yeah, set.

903

It's set in hundreds of acres

of rolling countryside and just

904

the most amazing learning space.

905

So that's the 13th of June next year.

906

And.

907

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's exciting.

908

Jo Middleton: It is, there's so

much exciting stuff going on.

909

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

with that.

910

You know, I do.

911

Jo Middleton: Ah, honestly, it, oh yeah.

912

See, but you might wanna get involved

with some of the other stuff as well.

913

So,

914

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

well, I'll get involved with it.

915

Oh, you know me.

916

Jo Middleton: Yeah.

917

Love it.

918

The ISEP, we've got the big dog psych

conference, which is a virtual one

919

coming up summit rather than conference.

920

Yeah, that one's going to be

towards the end of this year.

921

So keep your ears and eyes

peeled for more info on that one.

922

Some of the international, scientists,

top behaviourist trainers that

923

we've got jumping in on that are

like mind blowing starstruck.

924

So that's really exciting.

925

With the ISEP as well.

926

We are launching a new course over

the next few weeks actually which is

927

a level three mental health first aid

course for people working in dog rescue.

928

We, we spoke about this before, didn't we?

929

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

930

Jo Middleton: Yeah.

931

Yeah.

932

So what I would love to see is for

every rescue to have a dedicated mental

933

health first aider within their team.

934

And I know from my experience in

rescue over the past 25 odd years that.

935

The pressures that, that, the time,

the resource pressures, et cetera,

936

on rescues, this almost seems like

an extra thing to add to that.

937

However,

938

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: However.

939

Jo Middleton: the emotional toll for

someone in rescue who gets into it

940

because they love the animals and

they love dogs and they want to make

941

a difference, and then they're having

to turn dogs away because there is.

942

Just no room for them.

943

And they're feeling that they're

sentencing that dog to death because

944

there is no room for that dog.

945

That mental toll, it, it,

I can't even describe.

946

I did a podcast with, the, the raw

pet medics A couple of months ago,

947

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yes, yes.

948

Jo Middleton: I was speaking

about this kind of thing.

949

By the end of that week I had I think

five dogs that had been basically, it

950

had been shifted onto my my plate, if you

like, that if I didn't find somewhere for

951

these dogs to go, they'd be put to sleep.

952

And for that mental strain

is, is just horrific.

953

So.

954

That is something that we're launching

through the ISCP and we are going to be

955

working with rescues worldwide to roll

that out to see if we can really make

956

an impact to support, better support the

mental health of people working in rescue.

957

And that leads me nicely onto what

we've got coming with the International

958

Institute for Canine Ethics.

959

There's a couple of things, a couple

of things with the International

960

Institute for Canine Ethics.

961

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

just rebranded as

962

Jo Middleton: Oh,

963

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: You

964

Jo Middleton: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

965

The,

966

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

967

Love it.

968

Jo Middleton: Yes.

969

So the International Institute for

Canine Ethics is all about supporting dog

970

professionals in being the most ethical

version of themselves that they can be.

971

So no matter how you come into

contact with dogs during your role,

972

I supports you with ongoing learning,

ongoing CPD and the support network

973

that we all need in the dog world.

974

The traditional kind of rule when a

dog is rehomed is called the 3, 3 3.

975

The 3, 3, 3, 3 days, three weeks.

976

Three months is a rigid timeline of

things that you should be able to

977

expect from that dog or for the dog

to stages for the dog to have gone

978

through by the three month period.

979

With the aim to reduce bounce backs

into rescue really, and for guardians

980

to have a better understanding

of the dog that they've re-homed.

981

However, you and I both know that

dogs can't stick to a rigid timeline.

982

They don't know that by three days

they should be doing this or by three

983

weeks they should be doing that.

984

So ICE is, has got a

new, a, a new 3, 3, 3.

985

We, we want to keep the.

986

Guidance, the stages for guardians

to understand so that they're able

987

to see what stage their dog's at.

988

But we don't want a rigid

timeline because the last stage

989

is ongoing for the dog's life.

990

It's not gonna happen by three months.

991

It's a constant paying into

that emotional bank account.

992

So ICE is just launching the.

993

Three stages of adjustment.

994

You'll be able to download the overview

of the three stages of adjustment as

995

a free resource on the ICE website.

996

It's literally going live this week.

997

It's all been drafted and

we've actually got some press.

998

We, we are in some pretty

big press about it as well.

999

But the what we're, we're doing is

working with a, a wonderful team to roll

00:51:48,387 --> 00:51:50,877

that out across rescues across the uk.

00:51:51,207 --> 00:51:55,257

Buddy it up with a mental health

first aid course from the ISCP.

00:51:55,827 --> 00:52:02,817

And provide the education to guardians

who are adopting dogs and implementing

00:52:02,817 --> 00:52:08,457

the three stages of adjustment with

the ongoing education that they can tap

00:52:08,457 --> 00:52:13,317

into as and when they need it, when they

see a stage or an element of a stage.

00:52:13,707 --> 00:52:17,817

So that's super exciting and hopefully

going to make a a massive difference.

00:52:19,057 --> 00:52:23,287

And then the other thing with ICE that

we are working on for prep professionals

00:52:23,317 --> 00:52:30,717

is a fabulous, amazing support team

of everything that you need to grow

00:52:31,047 --> 00:52:36,387

and develop and find your voice to

speak out your confidence, everything

00:52:36,387 --> 00:52:41,017

that you need from your business

strategy to your accreditation pathway,

00:52:41,017 --> 00:52:44,057

to getting on the A BTC pathway.

00:52:44,057 --> 00:52:48,647

Every, even, even your copywriting

for your social media platforms or

00:52:48,647 --> 00:52:51,047

your blog posts, or if you go out.

00:52:51,407 --> 00:52:56,747

You've got a client with a case study

that you're not quite sure how to act

00:52:56,807 --> 00:53:01,957

or how, what to say, or you, you can't

find the words we are providing something

00:53:01,957 --> 00:53:04,507

that is completely end to end for you.

00:53:04,507 --> 00:53:07,297

That's in beta testing mode at the moment.

00:53:09,747 --> 00:53:10,487

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

So exciting.

00:53:11,227 --> 00:53:13,657

Jo Middleton: I know and there's

more, but I can't tell you.

00:53:14,907 --> 00:53:15,882

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's okay.

00:53:15,942 --> 00:53:16,992

That's fine.

00:53:16,992 --> 00:53:17,592

I'm loving it.

00:53:17,592 --> 00:53:21,222

We've got lays of lots to work

with there, but no exciting times.

00:53:21,222 --> 00:53:26,652

So Jo, if you could give one

message to every person working with

00:53:26,652 --> 00:53:28,842

dogs right now, what would it be?

00:53:31,982 --> 00:53:32,822

Jo Middleton: Ooh.

00:53:32,852 --> 00:53:39,902

I think don't confuse being

compassionate with being weak.

00:53:41,057 --> 00:53:45,977

Don't, don't let anyone ever

make you feel that by being

00:53:45,977 --> 00:53:49,007

compassionate, you are being weak.

00:53:49,637 --> 00:53:55,997

Doing right by the dogs, even

when it's hard, is the strongest

00:53:55,997 --> 00:53:57,407

thing really, that you can do.

00:53:57,407 --> 00:54:03,617

So don't let other people or,

or don't ever let yourself talk.

00:54:04,077 --> 00:54:09,027

And that mind monkey chatter

confuse compassion with weakness.

00:54:09,627 --> 00:54:10,767

Would be my message.

00:54:10,912 --> 00:54:11,192

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

00:54:12,007 --> 00:54:12,337

Brilliant.

00:54:12,337 --> 00:54:12,712

I love that.

00:54:13,182 --> 00:54:14,947

Jo, thank you so much.

00:54:14,947 --> 00:54:18,637

Literally, this episode's been

jampacked with so much information.

00:54:18,637 --> 00:54:19,447

I've loved it.

00:54:19,757 --> 00:54:23,177

Finally, how can people get in touch with

you, Jo, if they wanna find out more?

00:54:24,467 --> 00:54:25,997

Jo Middleton: Just pop a message over.

00:54:25,997 --> 00:54:33,557

Just head over to your email and

type in jojo@kineprinciples.com.

00:54:35,277 --> 00:54:35,877

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

00:54:35,967 --> 00:54:37,047

Thank you so much.

00:54:37,347 --> 00:54:43,677

Jerry Middleton, thank you for joining me

on The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappy today.

00:54:44,007 --> 00:54:44,938

Absolutely loved it.

00:54:45,087 --> 00:54:48,357

We will get you back in the future

'cause I feel we've just scratched your,

00:54:48,687 --> 00:54:51,027

there's lots more we can talk about.

00:54:51,307 --> 00:54:53,962

Thank you for your time and

we will see you again soon.

00:54:55,127 --> 00:54:56,472

Jo Middleton: Thank you for having me.

00:54:57,682 --> 00:54:57,832

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: You are

00:55:03,208 --> 00:55:03,478

Wow.

00:55:03,478 --> 00:55:06,598

That was a truly

enlightening conversation.

00:55:06,878 --> 00:55:12,958

Jo's passion for education, ethics

and empowerment absolutely shines

00:55:12,958 --> 00:55:17,188

through, and it's clear that learning

isn't just about ticking boxes.

00:55:17,428 --> 00:55:20,968

It's about doing better

for dogs and ourselves.

00:55:21,388 --> 00:55:24,628

Here are a few golden

nuggets from today's chat.

00:55:25,138 --> 00:55:25,888

Number one.

00:55:26,293 --> 00:55:31,453

Learning is a journey, not a

destination, especially in a field as

00:55:31,453 --> 00:55:34,393

emotional and evolving as pet care.

00:55:34,963 --> 00:55:40,813

Number two, accessible ethical education

empowers everyone from seasoned

00:55:40,813 --> 00:55:43,513

pet pros to brand new pet parents.

00:55:43,873 --> 00:55:47,473

Number three, values

should guide education.

00:55:47,743 --> 00:55:50,923

Science matters, but so does compassion.

00:55:51,613 --> 00:55:54,973

Number four, imposter syndrome is normal.

00:55:55,273 --> 00:55:59,773

Community support and small

steps forward are key.

00:56:00,373 --> 00:56:05,803

Number five, dog guardians can

benefit hugely from ongoing learning

00:56:05,803 --> 00:56:10,248

too because understanding your

dog is the ultimate relationship.

00:56:10,448 --> 00:56:10,928

Goal.

00:56:11,528 --> 00:56:16,748

Thank you so much, uh, to Jo for sharing

your heart and wisdom with us today.

00:56:17,108 --> 00:56:21,408

We'll link all of Jo's incredible

platforms and resources in the

00:56:21,408 --> 00:56:27,288

show notes, including canine

principles, the ISCP and ice.

00:56:27,738 --> 00:56:32,868

Until next time, keep learning,

keep growing, and give

00:56:32,868 --> 00:56:34,578

your dog a cuddle from me.

00:56:35,328 --> 00:56:39,188

This has been the Yappy

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