Hey pod and Happy Thursday! If this is your first time listening or watching, welcome to Representation in Cinema – we talk about the films that center Black, Brown, and Indigenous voices as well as on the film industry itself.

Tonight marks the beginning of our Black August series, where we talk about the films that highlight Black resistance, freedom fighters, and political prisoners. Black August was created in solidarity with freedom fighters and political prisoners in San Quentin State Prison in California, including published author, Black Panther field marshal, and thought leader—George Jackson—who was killed by prison guards in 1971.

This month is not only a time to learn about the movements, uprisings, and revolutionaries from our past, but to also continue to work as a collective and in solidarity with community organizers and grassroots groups towards Black liberation.

As filmmakers, it’s our duty to share stories of those who fought (and continue to fight) against and outside of destructive systems, whose very existence disrupts those systems. Hollywood is one of those entities using film as a medium to stereotype, dehumanize, and to maintain the status quo for Black, Brown, and Indigenous peoples.

All month long, we’ll be sharing and reflecting on these stories here on the Representation in Cinema podcast. Tonight, we’re diving into Daughters of the Dust, directed by Julie Dash. Daughters of the Dust follows the Gullah-Geechee Peazant family on Ibo Landing, South Carolina, as they prepare to migrate North. Nana Peazant, the aged matriarch, refuses to migrate and frets over the possibility of broken family ties and lost traditions.

Joining us on the podcast tonight is Cocoa Rae David, who I think at this point is no longer a guest, but a regular on the RIC pod! She’s a New York-based visual artist, curator, photographer, filmmaker, and business owner of By Cocoa Rae LLC, who creates captivating portraits and art of unique and diverse people and captures their true essence. You can visit her website here and follow her on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/bycocoarae. (She’s also on TikTok under the same name.) Cocoa also has a studio, art gallery, and event space called Da Purp which you can follow here: https://www.instagram.com/da_purp. If you want to book her space for an upcoming event, art gallery or photography/videography session, you can visit Da Purp on Peerspace here: https://www.peerspace.com/pages/listings/649feb0b70383c000e8473c4.

She also mentioned The Slave Dwelling Project, organized by Joseph McGill. You can visit the website to learn more and support the project here: https://slavedwellingproject.org. You can also follow them on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/slavedwellingproject

Wherever you’re listening from, hit that subscribe button, give us a 5-star rating, share this episode and leave a comment to let us know what you thought of tonight’s episode. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok, & Threads.

Visit ourvoicesproject.com and sign up for our newsletter for more information about what we do. We’ll be back with more episodes continuing our Black August series, including Paris is Burning, which you can watch on HBO Max and Tubi before tuning into our next episode.

This has been Jackie McGriff, your host for this episode of Representation in Cinema. As always, thank you again for listening!

Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Roasters

Visit joebeanroasters.com to get fresh roasted specialty coffee either by the bag or with a Perpetual Joy subscription!

Our Voices Project - Land Acknowledgement

Hello POD and Happy Thursday.

If this is your first time listening and or watching welcome to the Representation in Cinema podcast.

We talk about the films that center the stories of Black Brown Indigenous peoples as well as on the film industry itself.

I'm not only your host, but I am also the founder, director and co producer of Our Voices Project, a production company that shares the stories and lived experiences of Black, Brown and Indigenous peoples through visual storytelling and truth telling.

We are community engaged filmmakers who are who firmly believe that you cannot center the stories of Black Brown Indigenous peoples without also being in community and in solidarity with them.

If you are watching this on YouTube, make sure y' all go ahead and hit that subscribe button and also the little bell to get notified about new episodes.

And if you're listening on your preferred podcast platform, make sure that y' all hit follow.

Give us five stars and if you like this episode, please feel free to leave a comment below and let us know what you what you thought Tonight marks the beginning of our Black August series where we talk about the films that highlight Black resistance, freedom fighters and political prisoners.

This month is not only a time to learn about the movements, uprisings and revolutionaries from our past, but to also continue to work as a collective and solid in solidarity with community organizers and grassroots groups towards Black liberation.

As filmmakers, it's our duty to share stories of those who fought and are still fighting against and outside of destructive systems whose very existence disrupts those systems.

Hollywood is one of those entities using film as a medium to stereotype, dehumanize and to maintain the status quo for Black, Brown and Indigenous peoples.

All month long we'll be sharing and reflecting on these stories here on the Representation in Cinema podcast.

Tonight we're diving into Daughters of the Dust.

Directed by Julie Dash, Daughters of the Dust follows the Gullah Geechee Bazant family on Ebo Landing, South Carolina as they prepare to migrate north.

Nana Pazant, the aged matriarch, refuses to migrate and frets over the possibility of broken family ties and lost traditions.

Joining us on the podcast tonight is Coco Ray David, who I think at this point is no longer a guest because that's Fam regular on the Pod.

But of course, for those of you who don't know Coco Ray David, we're going to fix that right now.

She's a new York based visual artist, curator, photographer, filmmaker, and business owner of Coco Ray, llc, who creates captivating portraits and art of unique and diverse people and captures their true essence.

Welcome back to the pod, Coco.

Thank you for having me.

Again, she's like, shaking your head as I'm giving the.

I appreciate you.

I can never not be serious.

So thank you again for being here.

And let's get into the discussion.

Okay.

So, Coco, was this your first time watching?

And if so, what was your initial reaction?

Yeah, it was.

Well, guess it's my first time watching the film, but it was on my list of films to watch.

I've heard so much about the film over the years, and I've been on this watching Film King, like, kick.

Sorry, Kick.

Cause I mean, you know what?

It's been rewarding because I feel like seeing other directors and filmmakers perspectives on films, whether it comes from historical evidence or just reference to, like, just creating stuff from their mind.

I love it because it gives me a chance to see where their heads are at.

But this film is.

It really kind of.

It hit home with having family members and ancestry from the Carolinas.

You know, my dad's from North Carolina.

My mom, she's from here, but her mother's from Charles, South Carolina.

I did my schooling down there and really learned so much.

So seeing this film was just a reminder of the work I was able to, like, do down in low country.

Chucktown, you know, the different names.

But also, like, there was so much, like, it made me really think about my family lineage and the term the north, like, learning so much about that and being I'm the cousin from the north, you know, and talking about that.

But seeing from the film what they thought was the north and having relatives that stay behind.

Like, I have relatives that stayed in the South.

Yeah.

You know, that doesn't mean they don't visit, but they live down there.

That's where their.

Their kids are, their grandkids, their great, grand, all of it.

But because of my family, the north was where they went.

And I was like, whoa.

Like, there's so much, you know, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How did you feel?

Like, I mean, was this your first time watching the film?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

This is my first time.

This.

I heard about this.

I think it was right after, because of course, we always bring it up sinners.

It was right after sin.

People were talking about more.

More films that.

That touch on those.

Like those African spirituality, the traditions, you know, those customs.

And you're talking about that in film.

And so some people were mentioning daughters of the Dust.

And I had heard about that because I was researching other black filmmakers, and Julie Dash's name comes up, and there's Daughters of the Dust.

So it's something I'd always kind of, like, heard about.

And then so finally being able to actually sit down and talk about the film and watch the film, I was just, like, first of all, blown away because I'm sitting here, and it's not the kind of like you watch.

Like, you watch an older movie, you watch a movie from the 90s, right.

And you look at the film and you go, yeah, this is definitely from the 90s.

This is not what I got from that movie at all.

It's like.

And of course it is.

It is a classic.

It is a classic film.

But.

But it's like one of those that, you know, when.

When.

When.

Whenever we get those lists that are like, you know, these are the films that you need to watch, you know, and it's usually something that's centered not on black women.

Right.

Which is what this movie is doing.

But it's.

It's.

There's a certain look that it has to it.

It has that.

It has that, like, that timely.

It.

It.

It's timeless.

It has a timeless feel.

Yep.

And so I'm looking at this, and I'm going, this is incredible.

Just the look, the colors, just the way that the camera moves.

Everything about it just yells classic film.

Like, this should be in, like.

This is, like, one the pantheon of great films.

It should be right up there with the Godfather people.

Yeah.

Because especially with, like, the way it was shot with lighting, the.

The way they play with, you know, colors and, like, white.

That was something I always loved about living in Charleston was, like, the way people who are local, like, they come towards the water, and they're always wearing white.

I have my own personal thing with the color white, but white is such a very healing color, and there's so much behind it.

Seeing black folks in white, it's, like, ethereal.

I can't explain it.

And also, like, the way everything was, like.

I don't know why it's, like, wide.

Did you feel like it was a wide.

Yeah, like, wide feet.

Like, I know it was.

That was the.

Probably intentionality is, like, the whiteness of it, but it was just the.

The way they played with principles of a design, like emptiness in some frames, fullness, like, fullness of other frames.

Like, even when the.

The girl's playing near the beach and just in white and they're dancing, and I'm just like, and singing songs like Sisterhood.

You know, sisterhood, freedom, liberation.

They're just.

They're just existing.

Yes.

Just existing.

Yeah.

And even.

Just.

Not even just that, but like, seeing different.

Like the major.

We could talk about that all day.

Because I feel like.

Especially as, like, people who are raised by mom matriarch, we understand the.

The gravity of that and trying to hold on to things, especially like having elders, like how much our elders have.

They play a huge role in just keeping history, but also presenting the past.

Yes.

The future.

Looking at the future, where things are going to go, how is it going to progress?

There's so much behind it.

And even just watching it from the first time, there was just so much information where it's just like the storytelling.

Whew.

The way they.

I loved the way they told stories.

Like, the voices.

The way they told stories.

It was very.

It's folk, like folklore.

There's so many different levels to.

It isn't just one voice.

There's layered voices from, like, the unbirthed child to, like, you know, the matriarch to even just the Met, like, the roles.

There's so much.

There's so much.

We're gonna get into all of that, of course.

So I want to talk.

Because we started to talk about a little bit when this is what.

I mean, this is what we do.

We're both filmmakers.

This is literally what we hate out about.

This is what we do.

So I wanted to get into the filmmaking process.

There was.

As you said, there's a lot.

There's.

There's so much in this.

And I'm gonna go down the list, and of course, feel free to interrupt me if there's anything that you're like, jackie, we need to talk about more about this.

Julie Dash, the director of the film, wanted to do a film about African Americans that was authentic to Geechee culture.

That's the culture that she actually comes from as well.

So she wanted to pay homage to that.

Folks at afi, the American Film Institute, they had told her originally when she was thinking about this, and this was 10 years before she actually shot, edited all that stuff with it.

They told her that it's already been done before.

And she was like, nope, no, it hasn't.

So she started working on it.

As far as, you know, the cinematography, the coloring, the question that she really asked was, you know, how can we do what's never been shown?

Right.

And so a lot of the references that you see on screen are coming from.

She consults a diasporic community.

So folks in West Africa Also folks, you know, from that culture, a lot of, you know, different, like I said, across the diaspora, a lot of voices that are chiming in and giving their.

Giving, giving their knowledge, you know, as far as, you know, the clothes to use.

So many of the customs that you see, like, you know, being done, you know, by the matriarch, you know, all of these things.

She also loved and watched a lot of foreign films before making the film.

She really wanted the film.

She wanted it to feel like, when you're watching it, to.

And I definitely did this while watching it, question whether or not it was actually something that was taking place in America.

Because it felt like that.

It felt like a foreign film.

But I'm like, no, this is like, this is here.

This is this American soil, like, that we're talking about, like, which was incredible.

She.

Here's the thing.

And we're going to give a little shade to Kodak.

All the shade, all the shade.

Because, I mean, we're from Rochester.

We can do that.

So.

So she used for.

Again, for the coloring.

So she used German.

German film stock due to the high contrast between the white that they're wearing.

Also the white beaches versus, like, the dark, the darker skin tones right now.

She couldn't use Kodak.

She said this in an interview.

She couldn't use Kodak because it.

Because how it reads shadows, it reads them as blue and green.

And so there were other films that she had watched that time.

Like, I think there was something with, oh, I forget the actress, the black actress.

But she was saying, like, she came off on the screen as blue.

Like, she looked blue in the movie.

She didn't want that.

And because that's the way that Kodak reads shadows, it was also going to be the way that they read.

It reads darker tones.

So she was like, we cannot have that.

So she decided to use instead or find a film stock that would actually give her those.

Those colors.

She.

This was all shot in natural light because.

So where they shot was right on location.

They.

They.

Because of preservation laws at the time, they weren't allowed to bring anything with four wheels, so they couldn't bring any lights.

They actually used reflectors.

One of the things that I was just like, that's nuts.

Was just about not, like, not being able to use lights, doing all of that and just natural.

I mean, if you're not someone who's familiar with, you know, the filmmaking process, lighting is like 90% of the things.

So, like, you really have to.

You really have to know, first of all, the cinematographer who was Arthur Jaffa on the film?

What was really.

It was really Julie.

Julie Dash and Arthur Jaffa, who's a cinematographer as well as the production designer, or I think was the art director.

Production designer was Carrie Marshall.

And I will look up in a second who the art director was.

But they all worked together to try to figure out what times, you know, we were trying to figure out what time of day, you know, is going to be the best.

And of course, like, you don't.

You know, when you're outside, you know, the light, lighting is harsh and everything like that.

So trying to figure all of that out without being able to bring on anything with four wheels, you know, all that equipment that you have, it's like.

That's some guerrilla filmmaking right there.

Yep.

It's crazy.

The color palette that they used, that was very.

Also intentional.

That was indigo.

You'll see a lot of references to indigo in the film because that's actually.

Was that.

That's what was used in.

In.

During chattel slavery.

That was what indigo was.

Was what was making colonies money at the time.

So she.

Julie intentionally used that indigo.

They also had some problems with filming because Hurricane Hugo.

Yep.

Category four.

Yeah.

Hit while shooting.

And so they actually, when they got back to.

To resume shooting there, they ended up.

Julie says they ended up using like, there was fallen trees everywhere.

She just was like, you know what?

We're just going to go with the flow.

That's just going to be part of the story.

Now there.

There was.

I also thought this was funny.

So the composer for the film, John, was John Barnes.

She told him not to use any.

Any harmonica or banjo in any of the score.

And the reason for that is because she is.

She at that point seen so many films where, you know, anytime there's something set in the south, it has to feature somebody on a banjo.

It has to be a harmonica.

She's like, don't put any of that into the score, please.

And so there was that the.

Like I think I mentioned before, so the white dresses.

And we can talk.

We can also talk more about that because when you're talking about how ethereal they all looked.

So she.

She ended up using like, old pictures in order to make the decision, you know, people on the island a lot.

That, again, was like coming from diasporic communities.

And then, of course, when we talked about the story of the.

The style of storytelling, she said she used what she calls her griot structure, recalling and recounting a family's history.

She didn't want any part of this to be the European standard, the.

The Europeanized version of how we usually tell stories in films.

So, yeah, they're.

There was anything in that.

So there's.

Like I said, there's a lot.

So you just got.

Again, because we're filmmakers and we're nerdy about this stuff.

I wanted to point all of that out because again, there's.

Number one, there's so much, of course, that goes into a film.

You can't do films without collaborative efforts.

But then also all the research.

Right.

All the research.

All the community.

Right.

That she would have had to.

That all of them would have had to.

Established prior to making the film to make it authentic to Geechee culture.

So much that goes into that.

Any thoughts?

All of it.

I mean, especially going back to what you said about the way everything was shot.

The first thing I thought about was, like, time, you know, and how we.

Everyone interprets time so differently.

And you said the film was timeless.

Which.

Seeing the film for the first time, it was so interesting because, like, it's supposed to.

Dated.

Yeah.

A bit.

With, like, the crossover between going from the old world into, like, this new world of, like.

Yeah.

Acceptance and progression and freedom and stuff.

Yeah.

It just made me think about how we're constantly in this constant loop of that.

You know, like time, you know, it's interesting just the way that they're on this island.

Like, it's like far away.

Land.

Yeah, island.

And of course, you know, being in Charleston, seeing the beaches they have, it's.

I could.

I was visually thinking about those beaches as, like, seeing beyond.

Just like it's.

You know, being in Rochester, the lake on the other side.

But it's like.

No, this is like an ocean.

So there was so much behind.

Behind it.

And then, of course, learning about the cinematography from this and just seeing why they chose the film that they did.

Because a lot of times film is experimentation and finding what fits.

So hearing how Kodak and the way that they have their process and thinking about, yeah, blues and greens, but we also have warm tones.

You know, there's reds, there's yellows, there's browns.

And how that livens us up a little bit.

You know, there are.

There.

Black folks aren't a monolith.

There's so much to that.

And seeing this film from, like, the most feminine to the most masculine to the most spiritual to the most religious, like, it was a whole array of things suspended in time.

And kind of putting all those things together, like, this was amazing.

And of course, thinking about Hurricane Hugo and living in Charleston Hearing about it, I'm just like, yeah, it made sense why it took so long, but the filmmaking was so important just to see this story.

And I'm so happy that we have films like this that we can just go back on or either watch for the first time or watch for the hundredth time and seeing where the storytelling comes from.

And the storytelling for this reminded me of is God is.

You remember how they were telepathically talking and stuff like I love.

We need more narratives like that.

We need more askew non linear ways of communication and telling stories like those, it kind of lets us know like English is, you know, like the way the language is.

Language isn't linear.

There's so many different things behind the way we tell stories from one words to full sentences, like all of it.

So I, yeah, and, and also too, it's like when I'm sitting there and I'm watching, it's you.

We've, we've been programmed, right, to expect stories like told in a certain way, even if they are like again, you know, following convention.

Right.

In terms of just filmmaking, it still sort of has like a, There's a rhythm, there's a cadence.

This was like, no, you're going to, you're, you're on our time, right?

You're on our time.

That, that's very much what it felt like because I kind of had to like, I kind of felt my, myself kind of adjusting to like, okay, this is, this, this is definitely different, you know, from what I'm used to.

And that's okay.

Like, because again we're talking about, you know, we're, we're, we are the ones who are like watching this, this family kind of come to terms with so many different things.

You know, past trauma, history, tradition, the, the, those ideas of progress and what progress actually means there, there's so many things.

And so yeah, it really just like I said it, it forces you to kind of be like, no, no, you're on, you're on, you're on our time now, you know, so sit with.

Yeah, sit with us.

Exactly.

So I wanted to go through like because of course we're talking about Black August.

We're talking about freedom fighters and liberation and, and black resistance.

What are, what are some themes of resistance or some things, right.

That, that speak to.

That, to speak to black resistance that you, with that you saw throughout the film.

I, I think this is something I've been thinking about for a long time.

It was the way we like spirituality.

Not going to hold you, right?

No, because I was like, seeing the.

Seeing the elder, like the matriarch, you know, holding on to these traditions that she's known and that brought them to this island and seeing, like, her own descendants kind of get completely conform or, like, change with the way the times.

Like, I thought about when they were kind of getting ready to leave and she binded the Bible, you know, the.

Bible with some stuff.

And, you know, her daughters are like, you know, she's saying prayers and everything and just kind of like, I'm not doing that and everything, but the kids are like, right.

You know, and then seeing them kind of like abide by that, you know, like, even if they didn't kiss, they.

You know, the one I thought about was the one who was on the boat coming in with the cousin.

Oh, Viola.

Viola, yeah.

You know, and even just thinking about the roles of her and Olive on the boat, you know, the dark skin, the fair skin, and the way that everybody talks about each other and they address, like, what yellow mare was it?

Yellow.

Yellow Mary, yellow Marin and violet.

Yeah.

The way they talked about her and how she.

Because I feel like even just myself being the darkest out of my family, my immediate family, but having sisters who are different complexions, like, the way we kind of talk and address each other, but even how our aunts, you know, our relatives addressed each other and seeing them with their dynamic was so interesting.

But you see, even with the.

With Viola being the darker complexion, she's the one who's like, biblical, this is the way.

And this is the only way.

Like, this is it.

But then her mother.

Yeah, like, child, didn't we.

You were, you know, so it was interesting to see that with letting go and, you know, go sacrifice.

Like, that's what I was getting a lot with sacrifice.

Like, what are you sacrificing for when it comes to leaving or staying, like, staying.

You don't.

You're not.

You're not a part of the world.

You're not going to keep up with the world.

You know, you're going to stay with what's, you know, and what you've always known and what people have been here for versus when you leave, what are you really.

You giving up?

Family, ancestral lineage, you know, spiritual.

Like, there's so much.

So it was.

It was kind of like family union where it was a family union, where it was like coming in with all these things and not either addressing it or not addressing it, you know, combating with it or conforming to it, showing respect to it or not acknowledging it, you know.

Exactly.

And of course, all of it was Matrix.

Mothers, daughters, like the.

That's the thing I really liked about the movie a lot was that and not saying that the men weren't important or anything.

But the center focus of a lot of these things is the root of the black woman and the roles, Black femininity.

How.

How do we approach the world, how the world sees us, how do we keep things going?

You know, combating with.

You're saying about this is how the way we've done it and this is how we're always gonna do it, you know.

But then it's like, I wanna change.

I wanna.

There's so much.

So that's why I'm just like, things that a lot of us are still facing to this day with talking to our relatives about traditions and sticking to those things.

But then when you want to branch off are, you know, and it's like, but where were you?

But it's not just me, because you've had this too.

You know, you've stuck to your guns and you thought this was the way.

But not giving people a chance to really branch off or come back to those things, it's.

It definitely gives me the prodigal son.

Like it does.

I'm just like, man, you know how many times that story has been told throughout and the way that they've dictated with black femme, black women, like black identifying individuals and how we kind of have to navigate with keeping things or letting things go.

Like, we're always constantly say, sacrificing something.

Why are we always constantly sacrificing something instead of just keeping those things?

And I know they obviously, like I said, she.

Viola keeping her traditions of like, yeah, I may not go this route, but I'm gonna show my respect to my elder, because that's my elder.

That's something that's never gonna go away no matter how much you may have your differences.

But that's tradition, you know.

Oh, yeah.

So.

Yeah, yeah.

No, and that's like, it's a.

Especially the part about respecting our elders.

You know, that is something that is like, oh, we talk about all the time.

And I feel like as millennials, all the time.

Because it's like there are.

There are things that we.

We were, you know, we grew up with that notion of respecting your elders.

So there's, you know, you repay.

You pay respect to the people who have been here.

They have the wisdom, they have the knowledge and all of these things.

Things.

And.

And at the same time, there are things that they're also holding on to that that you're like, okay, but this is.

This is an old way of thinking, and it's not helping us.

Like.

Like, maybe that's what you needed to do back then to survive.

But, like, times have changed.

We gotta.

We gotta kind of move.

And I feel like that's the other thing.

We forget.

We.

How many times we reference spirit, you know, spirit.

The Rosso, a child.

But no one talks about.

Don't.

Don't provoke children, you know?

You know, so we.

Look, we could talk about this all day, but, you know, it's interesting to see what we.

We hold on to and what we have to let go for things to survive, you know, so it was a good story, but it was very heartbreaking to see, like, those things of tradition, of having to let go because of this, but having to succumb to what comes with it.

Like the conformality of.

I gotta be this presenting person to a society.

Yes.

But I have to let go of what has kept us so long to survive for so long, you know?

Yeah.

It's difficult.

It's.

It's traumatic.

It is traumatic.

And I think, like, focusing, like, having this be the focus, I think is like, this.

The focus being that of a family who is moving was moving on.

Right.

For that just to be the sole focus, that was more than enough.

Yeah.

There's just so much as we've been talking about and another thing about resistance.

I want to talk about Eula.

Oh, yeah, I want to talk about.

Eula and that speech that she gives towards the end.

I love that speech.

I'm so happy she did it.

Because to be honest, that's how I.

She is the emotional aspect of the family.

That part was so vital because it's like, I need y' all to listen.

Y' all one's listening.

Right.

And she's the one who holds the most, like, the whole.

Like, she had so much with her, but I'm glad she said it because people needed to hear it.

People were talking amongst themselves and not really talking.

She's like, now that I got everyone's attention.

Right?

And of course, bringing in new life, like, you gotta set the tone.

Yes, yes.

Because at some point she is going to be dementia.

Right, Exactly.

But this thing about this idea of not being ruined.

Right.

Someone.

So in the story, of course, you know, we're just at the.

The.

This is aft after she was.

Was sexually assaulted by someone.

And so there's the husband.

He's struggling with it because he looks at her as ruined.

And then the two women who come yellow Mary and Trula who come and, you know, the.

The family has all the things to say about them and talk about, like, them being fast and then being.

And all these other things.

Right.

There's.

And then being ruined.

Right.

And just for a little history lesson.

So the thing with talking about Yellow Mary.

Yellow Mary and Trula were both.

So they're.

Trula was not part of the family.

She was just someone who was coming in.

Family friend.

Yeah, family friend.

Right, so.

Right.

So Coco is doing quotes.

Yes.

For those who are listening.

So Yellow Mary.

So she's a woman of independent means.

In those days, the only way a woman could be independent was through becoming a sex worker.

Yep.

So I didn't know that because I was like, why are they calling her.

Why are they calling her?

Like, why are they calling her a whore?

Like, this is ridiculous.

What are you talking about?

And so this, again, she's.

They're doing things that they're.

That they feel in their heart that they need to do in order to survive.

Like, we're talking about survival.

And so, because even.

I mean, Yellow Mary, like, she talks about the hardships that she has gone through, you know, being someone who is independent, an independent woman.

And so this idea of being ruined, there's so much of that that's kind of like a reoccurring theme, especially when you're talking about women and what women are supposed to be, what's.

What they're not supposed to be.

Again, going back to that idea of progress.

Right.

You know, letting go of things, holding onto old ideas, old ways.

And to me, the thing that was resistance was all in what Eula was saying is getting rid of that idea of a woman being ruined.

There's also, I guess, the symbol.

Again, doing research about this, because I just found this so fascinating there.

At one point, there's a big parasol that washes up or is like.

Or just appears.

Oh, yeah, there's a lot of things appearing, which we'll also talk about.

But, like, it appears and it has.

You see, it has holes.

It looks like it's been shipwrecked.

It's.

You know, it's.

It's ruined.

Right.

This parasol is ruined.

But in that ruin, they find.

They find use.

They find use in what was ruined.

So again, that the symbol of the parasol, the huge parasol that you see in the film, plus also the big speech that Eula gives towards the end of the film, I think was just beautiful in the way that it was brought together.

And again, letting go of this notion of women for whatever has happened to them being ruined.

Yeah.

Thought that was beautiful.

Yeah.

And with that, we're going to take a quick break, and we'll be back after a few moments.

So, Coco, when we were talking about Yellow Mary before you and True her friend, you used quotes.

I want to go back to that for a second.

So why did you use quotes there?

For me, I feel like their relationship was, like, deeper than just friends.

Like, they can't.

Like when you bring people to come see family members.

Yeah.

Usually that's sometimes the case of, like, this is my friend, but this is somebody who's more than a friend.

And that was my notion because of the.

Yeah.

Talking for me.

Because of course she's there.

Right.

And of course, you know, I know Viola brought the photographer, but he's there to take pictures.

Yeah.

Yellow Mary's bringing this person who's not.

Right.

A family.

Yeah.

And she's new.

And their love, their level of comfortability, like, they're, you know, they're sitting in the tree, smoking a joint and talking.

And then, of course, when they're in the parasol and they're all, like, hugged together, like, feel like their friendship is a little deeper than just what.

Just the friend.

So that's why I was like.

And I never, you know, I'm watching.

I never clock that for a second because I'm just like, oh, this is a.

Like, I'm thinking, like, it's one of those, like, you know, in period pieces, you know, you usually see, like, a friend.

You know, I'm thinking it's like.

Because I.

Of course I can't think of anything else because when I think of period piece, I think Pride and Prejudice.

So, like, when you're seeing, like, her and her friend who, you know, is.

Ends up getting married to somebody who she doesn't care for, whatever, you know, period.

Peace, girly.

Yeah.

And like.

And I'm thinking it's one of those.

It's like, oh, this is a friend, you know, who's like, helping me.

I never clocked that it might be her significant other.

Yeah.

And of course, her being a sex worker would make a lot of sense.

You know, somebody who you can be completely transparent with without engaging in sexual activities, but somebody who can have a deep emotional.

So I. I always, you know, like I said with this, all these family members coming back to the island to meet up and take this photo and, you know, connect with everyone who's gonna be coming up to the north.

You all people always bring friends, or they say it's friends around.

And usually most cases are not just friends.

You know, so that's why I was like.

And especially, I think when they were.

Was it.

It was the part with the.

When they.

When the.

The matriarch, she was having them kiss the Bible, and they were kind of going through their quorums about everything.

She was there, and then she runs off.

So I felt like there was so much.

Because no friend would just run off just to run off.

Right.

Like there.

I feel like there was something deeper than just that.

Yeah.

You know, like, it was like this sacred time that I.

Let me step away.

Yeah.

You know, so there were.

I.

Maybe that.

Like I said, that's just from what I was getting.

It's like, who is this person and everything?

I'm like, art is her interpretation girl.

Like, you look.

And that adds a whole other dynamic, especially to the way that they were treating her or both of them.

Yeah.

You know, like, she's no.

She, no can of ours and anything.

But also just like, their intimacy from just little things like holding hands, being close to each other.

Coming on this trip with me to.

To kind of confront or talk to relatives I haven't seen in years.

You know, she could just be a friend, but I think she's definitely more than a friend and a support system with that.

Because when it comes to trauma, people always want to have people they feel comfortable with.

And then that.

That was what I was.

That's what I was getting.

So that's why I had my air quotes constantly.

Sure.

Just a friend.

All right.

They were roommates.

See, that's how it always starts.

So going back a little bit, also to timeless.

When I think in terms of, like, when I said, you know, that the film looks timeless, there is a lot of.

There's a lot of that.

You know, we're.

We're in the present, but we're also connected to the past, and we're also connected to the future.

And, like, kind of like how.

How time.

There's this, like, bending of time.

And I believe Julie Dash called it ancient to future.

And so.

And even Nana, like, in the film, also makes a reference to them being connected to their ancestors across the ocean, as well as in the north, those going to the north, you know, everything being connected.

And so I wanted to talk about the visions that we saw of the unborn child.

And so she's narrating the film.

And I thought that was very.

That was also very interesting.

Cause I kept.

I'm like.

I saw, like, in the opening credits, you know, they give the name of the actress and then, you know, unborn child.

I'm like, unborn child.

Like, what is, how is the unborn child making?

And so when she starts talking, I'm like, okay, she's narrating.

But then we actually see her like running across the fields, running across the beach.

At some point she runs into like her mother, who's Eula.

There's a moment in the film, towards the beginning of the film, where Nana is actually talking to Eli, who is Eula's husband, because all this time he's questioning whether or not the baby's his.

And this unborn child is like narrating to us, is telling.

I want to prove to him, you know, that I'm his child.

And I'm like, well, how's she going to, like, how is she going to do that?

And I'm like, oh my God.

So then she makes all these appearances and then Nana is trying to tell Eli, you know, talk to the ancestors, talk to the answers, connect to your ancestors, right?

And so, you know, they're having, you know, their back and forth and everything.

And at some point he does see his unborn child.

And it's just, it's the way that it's shot, the way that it's again used, like throughout the film was just beautiful.

Again, talking about those, those sorts of connections.

And Coco, at some point you.

And throughout the, the, the episode you've been mentioning, you know, being down in, in South Carolina and just all the things that you've learned, you know, from your time spent down there and your family also being from there.

I, I want you to talk about what you felt about like ancient to future.

But I also want to talk during your stay down there, if there, if you learned about or saw any of the, these references to that sort of, you know, how interconnectedness and how everything is connected, past, present and future.

Yeah, first, like I, that was something I really loved about the movie was that, that's why I said the story.

I love the storytelling aspect of, not of non linear narration because it keeps you on your toes on what information is being presented and who's presenting that information, you know, And I was wondering, sounds like how they unborn child because of course it's one thing to hear the child, but when you see the.

Child, like just running across the thing,.

You know, and I think that was something I loved about that aspect of spirituality is like, I feel like there's a whole thing on there, especially with the part with the photographer, like when he took the photo.

And she.

He saw her in the photo.

And I was like, When I saw that part, I was like, get out my head, get out my head, get out my head.

And how we spiritual gifts add so much to those things.

Being able to see and for him to be the photographer to see this child for a second.

And you know, she's trying to prove to her daddy, I'm your child.

But the photographer, who has no ties to this family whatsoever besides, you know, Viola and meeting her.

But the fact is that the photographer can see it.

He saw her.

And this is.

And of course he.

This ain't.

I'm gonna let y' all know, this wasn't no digital camera.

This was old school analog.

You won't get these aberrations type like film photography.

And I could have a whole conversation about that.

Yes.

But just for him to be able to see her.

And of course the color blue in her bow and she's running like.

And how many times we.

We talk about our family and our ancestors, like how much we look like our ancestors.

Like my family just got back from a family.

Our family reunion.

I was mad I didn't get the chance to go.

But hearing the stories and talking about it and having my niece and nephews go down, like they got to see their family and see where they come from.

Like my mom, we've talked about how she looks like my grandfather, but she looks like my great.

My grandmother, but she looked like her great great aunt.

Like.

And how much we, we don't see.

We see the physical, we don't see beyond the spiritual.

And how much when we think about like religion, we only know what we do religiously.

What do you do every single day, your practice?

How do you show up every single day?

But the spirituality is like a whole different like thing.

Like there's so much beyond it, you know, And I feel like sometimes we don't get a chance to explore that.

It's always demonized.

Like, don't go too deep, don't go that as demonic, don't.

But that stuff that our ancestors had, that's what they came on the boats with.

That's what kept them in tuned, you know.

And living in Charleston, like that whole.

Me living in Charleston was a whole spiritual journey in itself.

Like, I.

Not a lot.

I don't talk about it as much, but when I lived down there, I've learned a lot.

Like, a lot.

And photography, like, this is why if you're going to do photography, I always ask people, please learn the history about it.

Because the History has its thing, but you have to understand why you're in it.

There's a whole thing behind it.

There's a lot of healing and mending behind photography and the way it's being shown.

There's a spiritual thing behind photography with that, you know, so being able to live in Charleston, learn about the history, work on plantations.

Like my northern butt coming down and being in the south and being on a plantation like I had a friend.

I love you, girl.

I ain't gonna say her name.

Who.

She had a hard time being there.

Cause she was mixed and that was a lot for her.

But for me, being told at the age of like maybe five and being named Coco, where it's like people are not going to like you for your complexion.

People will do anything they can to hurt you.

And you having that place like on your head, but then coming to see why was a lot, you know, working between big known plantations and little known plantations are a huge difference on how people were cheated on those plantations.

You know, getting to meet people like Joseph McGill from the Slave dwelling Project, like.

And his work was a lot.

And it was emotional.

It was very emotional.

Especially from living situations, then the quarters, to how many people are living in a shanty, to unmarked graves near water and.

And people not knowing who their relatives are and their names and knowing that at least, you know, they're in the water so their souls can go back home to Africa.

Coming into places and spaces where people have been working in those plantations because their answers, ancestors stayed there even after liberation.

And that's the only thing they knew.

That's a lot.

Yeah.

You know, and.

And I guess I think my mentor, she.

I gave my mentor Heather, a white woman who was cognizant to everything and she wasn't dumb.

She raised a lot of.

For a lot of people about some things.

But she had.

There was a lot behind it.

And creating space is a place for me and other photographers to see it.

And not just photographers, storytellers.

Yes.

To tell people stories about these things and seeing it and even moving back to Rochester and carrying all this stuff.

Yeah.

Like I came to Charleston by myself, but I left with some things.

Left with something.

I did a lot of things.

A lot of things.

Especially when it came to my work.

Work like the work I do.

I know a lot of people love my work and photography.

Many people.

And some people don't.

Guess what?

The work isn't for you, it's for other people.

Yeah.

It ain't.

It's for the ancestors who didn't have a chance to have their voices heard.

Say that it's for the future generations.

I have nephews and nieces.

I want to make sure they know who they come from.

Yeah.

And where they come from.

Yeah.

You know, and that's the thing.

Storytelling like this is why it's important to learn your history.

That's why we talk about our elders.

Our elders are the last bridge of a lot of these things we have left.

Yeah.

And I see why in the movie, she was trying everything she could to hold on because she was the last.

Yeah.

The very last.

Like, yeah, everybody else stays, but she's the one who knows what her ancestors.

That's your roots.

Yeah.

You know, so, like, being able to go and see.

And like I said, I always have love for Charleston.

Like, I learned, like, going to school in the heart of the city.

The same place where people were sold, bought, beaten, and killed.

Market Street.

Well, I could talk about Market street all day, every day.

You know, going to the pineapple fountain where I'm out here drawing and learning how to draw stuff, knowing damn well my ancestors, excuse my French, was walking past, walking down the market.

Wow.

That's why I know my people.

I may not.

I'm from the South.

I'm from Charlotte.

I'm from the Carolinas.

That's low country.

Ancestral trauma and liberation at the same time, trying to fight back for what is yours and just being seen as a person.

All of it.

I could talk about this.

I might as well get my doctor talking about this stuff at this point.

That thing about black women are always going back to the Greeks.

You already told me not to.

But, you know, I swear we're bored.

One day we're like, you know what?

Let me go get thinking about it today.

I said, you know what?

I might go get another degree.

I had a dream about it, too, but Jack ain't gonna let me do it.

No.

And I've said the same thing.

I've been like, I.

But I want to get my.

I want to get another A degree in.

In African American studies.

Girl, do it.

Don't do it with one penny, co.

Figure it out.

Don't worry.

Just faith in the dream, and we got it.

That's all you need.

Oh, my God, man.

My Lord.

I'm sorry, y'.

All.

No, this is.

No, this is.

This is.

Listen, this is.

This is what we do.

Here are the representations of a podcast, okay?

There's going to be a lot of history.

There's going to be a lot of laughs.

Right?

It is all good.

Yes.

So if anyone wants to send funds, you know, to us, you know, just make sure you go to infourvoices project.com.

Right.

So we can get this knowledge.

Facts.

You know what I'm saying?

Yes.

Before.

But before we wrap up this episode, because, again, because we could.

Like I said, we're gonna have to just do a whole other, like, dive into, like, the south.

And especially seeing as how a lot is in the south and, you know, folks always feel like people, especially up here in.

In the north, folks have a lot to say about the south.

And it's.

There's usually a mix, but I feel like I often hear more bad than good.

And it's.

And the thing about it is there's, like, a lot of resistance movements.

A lot of the things that we.

A lot of the things that we're constantly talking about.

The civil Rights movement that started down South, There were slave revolts down South.

Like, it happened down there.

And so I'm like, if anything you're talking about.

Coco, you're talking about the knowledge that you got being in Charleston.

There's.

There's.

I.

There's so much history that is down there.

Like, it is worth.

It is worth trips.

Like, I'm not just talking about a single trip, right?

There's.

There's no way you could just do a single trip, right?

There's multiple trips, right.

To learn our history, to learn where we came from.

You know, most of the.

When these slave ships came, you know, they were coming into Virginia and Charleston and Georgia.

Well, that's what we know.

There's also the other pockets that they were being brought into, but those were, like, the major ones, right?

Exactly.

I mean, and if.

I know, if I go into ancestry right now, there's the.

There's the maps on that show, you know, where the likelihood of your family came through.

Came through.

Yeah.

So there's so much of that.

And of course, like, we can get into all of it, but when we're talking also to.

About going back to what Julie Dash was saying about her motivation for, you know, making this film was because she wanted to see African Americans.

She wanted to see black people accurately represented.

And I just feel like, you know, we have so many stories, you know, that come across, you know, tables and desks and stuff that people are pitching.

And, you know, we can also go into the fact that Blade was scrapped and girl, I know, I know.

There's so many things.

There's so many things.

Girls, we talk about that.

Wonder Man.

Okay, Is Ironheart season two even Happening.

Like there are so many things, so many of these stories that center black folks are getting scrapped, canceled, sidelined, all these different things.

Julie Dash was someone who talks about constantly in interviews where she was saying, like, I never set out to be this Hollywood, like, you know, director.

And I mean, and she would have, as she has been having, because she's continuing to create.

But what a time, like, what a time it has been, what a time it is now for to have authentic representation, especially of African Americans, of black people, you know, in film, on the big screen.

With all of that being said, I just like want to hear from you, as we, of course, you know, usually ask at the end of our podcast episodes here, is there what is the kind of representation, you know, if you.

If our voices project, you know, had the means, Lord willing, if our voices project has.

Or as.

As my.

I know my Arab friends would say, inshallah, anyway.

But like, like, what is the kind of representation, if we had the means, if our voices project had the means to fund the project.

So.

And then make sure that it wouldn't get sidelined, that it would be seen among, amongst the masses, especially us, right?

Us seeing ourselves on the big screen in an authentic way.

What is the kind of representation that you would want to see?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I'm so sorry.

No, I know, I know.

Oh, I was like, wait.

It was my long winded way of asking what kind of representation you wanted to see.

Adhd.

I'm sorry, you're asking the audience?

I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a good question.

I'm like, sorry, you know, like I said, I.

More black storytellers and the support they need to keep telling these stories.

Like, these are very important because thinking about this blade movement getting scrapped, I'm like, if we had a black dirt, this wouldn't have been a problem.

We gonna have to figure this out or something.

Like, I don't know, like just more passion projects to keep going.

Like, I understand with money and resources being non existent and not being able to create a lot of good bodies of work, but that doesn't mean that these stories don't deserve to be.

To be told.

You know, just finding out, even for her, you only got like maybe 12 hours of sunlight before you have to kind of, you know, go on to the next thing, but at the same time the light's constantly changing.

So you have to use this way of making films, you know, but at the same time, look at what it came out with.

Something so not saying simple, but like something that Wasn't able to be lightly, like, lightly littered with artificial lighting.

Being able to still have hold on people 30 years later, you know, not letting people tell you what you can and can't do.

Yeah.

And being able to just do it.

Yeah.

Are there any specific stories or one specific, like, thing about, like, culture or history or anything that you would be like, no, we need to.

We need to have this in a film.

Like, yeah.

Well, what were you going to say?

I was gonna.

I mean, I was just gonna say bring on the black alt.

I was gonna say that too.

I was like, more black alt stories.

Because I feel like there's so much African folklore.

Yes.

Like, there's so much more black mysticism.

Like, more things.

Yeah.

Like magical Negroes.

Like, oh my gosh, don't even get.

Listen, don't even get me started.

We can't just have like our own magical, like, thing.

Like, it's got to be in certain.

You know what?

That's why I said it because I was like, we need more, like, we need diversity in, like, how we're being presented.

Because I'm like, you know, this is why I like your alt project because you're giving black alts a chance to be seen and heard.

And I was thinking, I was like, dang, there are so many black alts that listen to rock.

There's so many that listen to edm.

There's so many that listen to, like.

Like, there's so many of us.

And we just need more representation of us in these places and spaces.

And not just one, but more like,.

We need more of it and then some more with like, I mean, like Hobie Brown in Across the Spider verse.

Like, I was like, is this the.

I mean, I know it's not the first, but in.

In recent memory that I.

That I'm looking, I'm going, that Hobie.

Hobie Brown is.

Is a black alt character.

That's.

That's black alt.

Like, that's.

Yeah.

And that's just one interpretation.

Like, there's so many different.

You know, that's how I felt about Donald, especially when they were like, Donald for Spider Man.

Like, yeah, Aaron, you know, like.

But make it happen.

I think he made it in, like, little, like the little things.

And I'm so mad.

And he's kind of aged out, but not really.

But I'm also like, he's a dad now, so it's like.

But they should have did it when they did.

But they did.

And so it is what it is.

But it's good because that means More people have the opportunity to make things happen.

So there.

Somebody else might have to take the mantle for a live action black Spider man movie.

I. I don't know.

You know, I think.

I think Tom Holland was actually.

He just an interview said that he would want the next Spider man to be Miles Morales.

Yes, they need to.

Yeah.

Even though.

So come on.

Live action Miles Morales story with the best sneakers ever.

Yes,.

We do.

I would love one last thing.

Yeah.

This is for my weaves.

My anime weaves.

We need more black anime.

Yeah, more adaptations, please.

Like if we could get magical negroes.

Can we please have some black anime weaves in here somewhere?

Like, we are here.

We've been waiting.

Megan cannot be the only person right now.

Yes.

There's so many.

There is, but yes.

Oh, my gosh.

No.

Yeah, we need.

We definitely need more of that.

For sure.

Awesome.

How can people support you, Coco?

Well, you can follow me on my social media platforms at.

By cocoray.

By C O C O A R A E. You can also visit me on my website at www.coco c o c o a.

Put a dash in the middle ray r a e dot com and support me there.

You can support me at any of the events I'm hosting or any events that are being hosted in my space.

The perp, you know, if you don't know about the perp, follow the purp on social media as well.

D A P U R P. Yeah,.

She's also on Peerspace.

Wait, you're still on peer space?

Yes, I am.

Okay.

I was just gonna say.

Yeah.

Yes, the perp is also on PepperSpace in Rochester, New York.

Find it.

Support a.

Support an artist.

Support a black filmmaker, storyteller.

All of the things.

Yes.

So no, this has been.

This has been such a great conversation.

It's always.

Like I said, you're no longer.

You're not a guest, you're just.

You're just fam.

At this point.

You're.

You're a regular.

So appreciate you.

Coco, of course, for joining the podcast tonight.

Listeners will have information about Coco in the show notes or in the description below.

Of course, if you're watching on YouTube about where you can support her.

And also.

Oh, you.

Before I forget, you also mentioned Slate.

Was it Slave Dwelling Project?

Yes, the.

The Slave Dwelling Project, which was founded by Joseph McGill.

He is an amazing individual.

This man has slept in not one, not two, not three, but over a hundred slave dwellings in the United States.

And he also hosts these sleepovers to talk about the enslaved folk in these slave dwellings.

This man is one of the greatest.

He is amazing.

He's a black man.

Please support him and all that he's doing and learn your history.

Amazing.

Like I said, we'll have that in the show notes or the description below on YouTube.

Wherever you're listening from, make sure you hit that subscribe button.

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We'll be back with more episodes continuing our Black August series including Paris is Burning which you can watch on HBO Max and Tubi.

Before tuning in to our next episode, this has been Jackie McGriff, your host for this episode of Representation in Cinema.

As always, thank you for listening.

This has been a presentation of the Lunchrum or podcast network.