Seminary Students Rachel Haines and Mackenzie Phillips are Rev. Dr. Brad Miller’s guests on Episode 46 of The United Methodist People Podcast.

They spoke to Dr. Brad in-depth about college and seminary life and their perspectives on ministry in a time of the pandemic, social, political, and racial unrest and division in the United Methodist Church.

Rachel Haines is a 2018 graduate of Emory and Henry College in Virginia

and a student at Candler School of Theology in Atlanta, Georgia.  

Mackenzie Phillips graduated from Hope College in Michigan in 2020 and is a student at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis. She serves as Associate Pastor of High Street United Methodist Church in Muncie, Indiana.

Both women are from Ft Wayne Indiana and both are members of St Joseph’s UMC. They discussed the importance of their home church in their faith formation through youth groups and church camps.

Going deeper - the conversation led to how the students were experiencing diverse situations and people in their college and seminary experiences and exploring scriptural studies and developing their own personal ministry philosophy and theological perspective.

The students discussed women in ministry and the importance of understanding context and perspective in ministry settings and to really be good listeners.

They talked about the challenges of entering ministry during a time of the covid pandemic and the social, political, racial unrest that has pervaded every aspect of life the last year.

Moreover, they talked about entering the ministry in the United Methodist Church during a time of division in the church. They saw that this opened up opportunities to apply their gifts and graces to make an impact upon the world through their willingness to serve and face the challenges before them.

Indeed, they are choosing to see a lot of hope in the world and in the UMC as serving the church in new ways is now more needed than ever and they are called to look for the good in people and the church and the word.  

Episode 46 of The United Methodist People Podcast with Rachel Haines and Mackenzie Phillips is an absolute encouraging word to the church from our emerging leaders who are teaching us to always “do all the good we can.”

mackenzie.phillips@inumc.org

hainesrachel.rh@gmail.com

https://hainesrachel.weebly.com/

The Mission of The United Methodist People Podcast is to strengthen the connection in the United Methodist Church through conversation and commentary and is published by Rev. Dr. Brad Miller an Elder in the Indiana Annual Conference. 

www.unitedmethodistpodcast.com

Reverend Dr. Brad Miller here on the United

Methodist people podcast. This is the podcast, we really like

to speak into the life of pastors, people lay folks,

people who love the United Methodist Church, and believe in

the mission of making disciples of Jesus Christ, for the

transformation of the world, and like to do so by conversation

and commentary, which strengthens the life of the

church. Today, we are privileged to have a couple of seminary

students with us who are going to speak into their experience

and preparation for ministry, their call to ministry, and

what's going on in the world of seminary, and also what is going

on in terms of the lives of some of our younger people in terms

of entering ministry and enter into ministry, the world we live

in now with some particular challenges in our society and

our United Methodist Church. Big Pat McKinsey Mackenzie Phillips

is with us. She has a 2020 graduate of Hope College in

Michigan, and she's on the staff of high treach High Street

United Methodist Church in Muncie, Indiana. And she's going

to be beginning at Christian Theological Seminary in

Indianapolis in the fall of 21. We're glad that she's with us as

well as Rachael Haynes who graduated from Emory and Henry

College in Virginia in 2018, and is a student at Candler School

of Theology in Atlanta, Georgia, she looks to graduate in 2022,

and is looking to take an appointment in the church at

that time. So Mackenzie and Rachel, welcome to the United

Methodist people podcast. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for

having us. Awesome. We're glad that you're with us here today.

And it's been it's my privilege to just to be targeted people

who are making some profound decisions. That's what people do

when they go to seminary and choosing to go into ministry.

And so and that's I just really love to talk to people when

they're in transformative and transitional points in life. And

so I just want to start with you, Mackenzie, Mackenzie, you

tell I would like to learn a little bit about you

particularly about your

liberal at your history in terms of what got you pointed towards

a life in ministry and then to go to go on to college with an

eye towards seminary. Something happened in your life, too late

Legion is direction. So this? Tell us your story a little bit?

Yeah, well, my name is Pastor Mackenzie

Philips.

I'm currently a licensed local pastor in the United Methodist

Church of Indiana. kind of how I got here, I grew up in Fort

Wayne and I went to St. Joseph, United Methodist Church, Rachel

and I actually went to the same church, which is just cool to

have his connection again, and awesome. And maybe we can talk

about that a little bit to what was happening in that church.

I think something that is really great about the experience that

I had at St. Joseph and kind of how it got me to this point, if

they do a wonderful job at encouraging young people and

people who want to pursue potential ministry or just feel

some type of calling by Christ, in allowing them to explore that

calling. And that was my story. I remember, when I first felt my

calling, I was going through a really rough time in my high

school years. I had lost some friends and was just really

struggling with how do I be a Christian in a non Christian

environment. And I would often see repercussions of that, and

just people would always hold me to this higher standard. And it

was a lot to live up to. And I was actually worshipping at

Epworth forest and just this huge sense of God's presence had

come over me and I was weeping and I was confused at why I was

weeping in all these things. And I actually heard God's voice say

to me, like you will lead my people I was probably 15, maybe

16 at the time. And that was a really scary thing at that time.

I didn't tell anyone for quite a while. And then I went to our

pastor at the time, Russ Abel, and just said, Hey, I think I

felt this call from God, I don't really know what to do with

this. It's scary. It's confusing. And he had said to

me, you know, our staff parish has been praying for you for six

months because we see these gifts in you and this call in

you, and I kind of at that point was like, Okay, this is a legit

thing. This is from God. It's not just me being crazy. Um, and

so you know, that that calling has looked a little different

over the years as I've had new experiences and going to college

and Going to Christian College in a different state, in just

the environment there, which really just focused on growing

in faith and challenging your faith and things like that. But

I've always known that pastoral ministry is what I want to do. I

filled a year ago, you would have told me I would have been

here in Indiana, again, associate pastor of a church, I

would have probably said, You're crazy. But we're here now. Um,

the Lord works in his time. And I did decide to wait to go to

seminary one year. And I think that was a great decision for me

and my faith. And I think I had a lot of growing that I needed

to do. So that's kind of where I am now and how I kind of got to

this place. Being on this podcast today. So

awesome. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that

story. If you're going to sit out a year in school this past

year 2020 pray was a good time is any with craziness that went

on with that in academic circles and everything else? Rachel, so

glad to have you with us. You're a student right now at Candler

Seminary in Atlanta, but let's unpack your story a little bit

with some of which overlaps with McKinsey, doesn't it? So your

story plays about you're coming to Christ, and coming into

ministry, seminary and so on.

Yeah, a huge, true blessing to like, see

McKenzie, in this space again. Because I think that growing up,

I had

parents and grandparents who were involved in their own

churches, and also at St. Joseph United Methodist Church in Fort

Wayne, Indiana, where it was sort of we went to church,

because it was routine, but also to be with people more so than

the narrative of we go to church, because we you need to

be saved, and you need this or XYZ.

And so going to church was easy, going to St. Joseph growing up

was so easy. There, we had such a in my experience of it, I had

such a formative and true youth group experience, and was also

able to be understood by folks and the church and be given

opportunities to speak, to be heard, to sing to just be told

that you're enough, you know, and I think a lot of leaders in

various ways in that church gave me some of my best friends, and

also equipped me with understanding what my life

looked like, outside of youth group growing up. And so I like

I had a lot of friends at school, who, you know, also

would say, very blessed in that way. But every step of the way

of me figuring out what my faith journey was in high school, but

even though I had friends who are atheist, too, are you who

are Muslim, who, you know, I in high school had such a different

experience, but they would even say, your enough your love, this

is okay, you know, to have just this continuous affirmation that

faith was something that I was just working on continuously

through high school. So for me, I'm really blessed that it was

easy. And getting to college was the was the first time I

realized that getting to faith wasn't easy for everyone. And

that because I have been so fortunate to see healthy church

spaces that I have this obligation in school to say what

what is what does this look like now in college? What does my

face look like here, and Emory and Henry College is a United

Methodist school, but they didn't have a lot of required

Christian opportunities. They had opportunities that were

extracurricular, and they had a religion degree. And I was kind

of going to school to just carry my faith along with me, but not

like, I was going to school to be a high school history

educator, and also just do a religion major on the side. And

then, about two years in there was this really great degree

that was originally called public policy and community

service, which they now call civic innovation, but Reverend

Miller it really resonates with me on, you know what this

podcast means because that major, not only was it nonprofit

business, not only was it like how to be a leader, but it was

also the importance of storytelling. Like, how do we

appreciate one another? How do we actually do sustainable

community work? How do we actually show up for one

another? And how do we realize all of these pieces are

interconnected? And so seeing like, I was like, Oh, this feels

this doesn't even feel like this is just exciting. This doesn't

feel like work. This feels like who the stuff I've been called

to think about alongside my religion major. And still not

knowing what I want to do with that, graduating college 2018.

And then spending a year in AmeriCorps doing some nonprofit

business work, because that felt really aligned with the Civic

innovation stuff before sort of seeing like, maybe, maybe my

faith journey isn't something that just sits alongside me.

Maybe it's something that I'm missing in my work, maybe it's

now something that I'm understanding is more

foundational than I've given it, given it credit for

going for that. That's an awesome, thank you for

sharing about that. Rachel, I'm interested in your take a little

bit in that. about your experiences you mentioned are

low, but a bit about St. Joseph church in Fort Wayne was a was a

personal friend of mine, and I know some of the good work

that's going on there. But what that it's essentially how this

evolved with two folks from that same youth group in the same

church, come forward here. What do you think was some of the

environment that was happening there that is helpful to nurture

young people like yourself to step forward? I'm talking to you

now, Rachel?

Yeah, I.

So

I first want to say that, you know, not

everything, like was perfect. When you have like this group of

25 kids, we had a for at one point, just a really, I think

Mackenzie and I were both on different ends of the cycle of

heightened youth group activity. You know, you've got pastors

with families, you've got these connections to Christian

Schools, and people were bringing their friends. And so I

think the endearing part of a lot of youth group activities

were that it really felt like, for the most part, I was just

hanging out with my friends. And that was like, the biggest

reason I went, um, and being able to do things together, and

being able to be given space, you know, whether it was on a

Wednesday night or on a Sunday night, or if it was, like, the

unofficial stuff that happened afterwards, like, you know, you

talk in the parking lot, or like you do, you know, the fun, like,

Thursday night hang out, or you go to camp together, you know,

they're all of these different informal ways for youth to

understand each other. And St. Joe really had a good network

for that, especially I think, for me, being always I've always

been, like a little weird, and like a little different. And so

there were also like weird and different, and cool kids and

youth.

And you you were affirmed in that without being

called out for being weird or something like that. So, and

women do it. And yes, you women to it, there were

and I think McKenzie could speak on this too. I didn't realize

until college how important women in ministry really was at

that point. Yeah.

But just to kind of reflect with pastors or church

leaders who are listening to this podcast today about how

just extremely, vitally important the full cycle of the

church local church experiences to faith development and to the

developing of people who seek their call, whether it is to

ministry or to be in a Christian business man or woman or a

schoolteacher or any thing else. And as you probably have

appreciated now, not every church in fact, most church

experiences are not like that. Young people or other people as

well. And I'm fortunate and blessed even though I'm a much

different stage in my life to you, my I came into my faith

through that same way through youth group and through church

camp and things like that. And still very mindful about my

experience as a Kim bonito and other places that are important

to me. But there's got to be transitions you that the local

church and youth group and high school, you know, it's a bit of

a you know, a protective bubble in a way, and then we move on to

college with both of you experience Recently, and then,

you know, and then then Rachel Yura in seminary as well. And

also, were involved with some civic activities with a taker

and volunteerism. Let's ask you, my kids, you When did you kind

of get a little dose of reality that in your life, either

through college or through ministry that, that, you know,

this calling thing, this ministry thing is going to be a

bit of a challenge to it full time, because when you kind of

had a bit of a reality check.

Yeah. I mean, I think this past year,

and entering into a pastoral role in the middle of a

pandemic, fresh out of undergraduate, not really

knowing what I was doing, or what I was getting myself into.

I think it was really just a reality check in a lot of ways

of moving away from Fort Wayne and from my parents home. Yes, I

had been in Michigan, but really being on my own for the first

time. And I feel like I was in a place I was in a program, last

school year called the May Scholars Program at hoping we

touched on how faith in social justice intertwine not knowing

that all of these things were about to unfold and happen.

Coming in March of 2020, we had no idea was coming. But I think

entering into ministry, in the middle of a pandemic. And High

Street situation is a little different as both me and the

senior pastor, we're both new to the church in which doesn't

happen rarely ever. And it was hard. It was really, really

hard. At first. I mean, the congregation that I am, I'm

probably the youngest person or one of the youngest people here,

and I'm in a leadership position. I'm also a woman,

which is not normal to this congregation. They've had a lot

of male lead pastors. And that's just how it's been or male

associate pastors. And you know, just, it was a bit of in

shambles when we got here. And I think I didn't know what

ministry was or what being a pastor even was. And then coming

in, it was hard. There was many days in many times that I was

like, Lord, what are you doing? Like, why am I in this place?

And is this really what you called me to do? Because I'm not

doing well right now. And I think that was really the first

like, oh, ministry is not this thing that it's so complex. And

I don't think people understand unless they're going through it,

how complex it actually is, and how many layers There are, of

not only taking care of other people, but learning to take

care of yourself, as well. But yeah, it's been so rewarding,

but it's also been so hard, in some ways, especially entering

in in the middle of a pandemic and all the civil unrest and

things like that. Sure. I think this year has really been just

an eye opener to what ministry really is. To me,

it indeed ministry is hard and you it's hard me

imagine someone entering into more difficult circumstance,

they're doing almost anything in the year 2020, you know, to

start something brand new. But Rachel Su, basically, you know,

the same question, did you have a kind of a, oh, my goodness, or

Reality Check moment, when you realize that this is going to be

some serious stuff here. And I know you're involved in some

volunteer opportunities, but if you had a moment like this

every day, you know, you sort of like, check

with yourself is like, okay, we have, we still have work to do.

Um, it was really easy for me in college to be in, like,

attracted to interfaith work, because I thought, wow, like,

there's so much I didn't know, growing up in my white,

predominantly middle class world of, you know, there's united

Methodism, there's back, you know, like, I only know

interdenominational work and so I became really attracted to

interfaith work. And then when I realized that, for me, it was

more difficult to find compromise or to be in

conversation in inter denominational conversation. It

was more difficult to do that rather than interfaith work, was

like, oh, there's, there's still more work to do. There's, you

know, there's always more work to do and

Don't think I have

one moment in particular. And that might be

just due to my bad memory. But also I think like, we're just

continuously face it with new and evolving needs and

aspirations of what needs to be the next job, what needs to be

the next

focus?

What do you what do you think addresses to both of

you here? Now that you've had, you know, you've had your

experience in high school and youth group and your church and

and you've had your experiences with college and some seminary

and some real life ministry in the local church and and

interfaith and other volunteer agencies? What are some of the

good ways that you feel like your college or seminary

experiences have prepared you for these experiences? What are

some takeaways you've been able to apply? McKenzie ask you

first.

Yeah, hope was just such a unique place.

And it was really the first time in my life where I felt like

this is where this is where I belong. And this is where I'm

supposed to be in this moment of life. And I think something

similar to like what Rachel said about Emory was that hope

really, it was a Christian School in it. affiliates with

the RCA church, but they didn't force students to participate in

religious activities, or other things or chapel wasn't

required. But they really gave students the space to explore

their faith in whatever aspect they wanted to and really make

it their own. And I really think that that is something that I

really appreciate about hope is that they allowed me the space

to explore my faith, make it my own, be involved in things meet

people, that could challenge me in my faith, because I was super

challenged in a lot of ways, especially in the May Scholars

program that I was in talking on topics of race, and sexuality,

and all of these things and how they relate to faith. And I

just, that's something that I really appreciate. And I think

it's made me more able to give people the space to explore

their faith, and not expect them to have it all together or be

where I'm at, in their faith, but continue to walk alongside

them, like people at hope walked alongside me in exploring the

different areas of their faith. I think that's the number one

thing that I really got out,

maybe a little some tools to help process and to

actually have insight into how to react to people. But I'm

hearing you saying, Rachel asked you pretty much the same thing.

What do you what do you what takeaways Have you been able to

apply in your real life experience that you've been

dealing with now?

I think in undergrad, I was given the

opportunity to understand that religious literacy needed to be

accessible in order to understand community, like

community stories and Community Action work. And like how do we

how do we make our faith journeys and faith stories,

something that we're proud of, or something that intertwines?

That we can understand the reality of how they intertwined

and building communities and in seminary, some of the things

that I've really been so appreciated that I've learned

our context is everything. Context is everything when we

meet people where we are when we read the Bible, when we sit with

ourselves. Another thing is, it's always beneficial when

we're telling stories to ask the question whose voice isn't being

heard, and whose voice is telling the story. And the

biggest thing so far in seminary that I've really wrestled with

on how I do this better is what does it mean to have this

ministry of presence to be present with people, especially

right now, when we are all so isolated? How are we rethinking

presence in this

digital necessity

type of world?

Orascom work one more kind of background type

question. We're going to get into some little deeper issues

here in just a second but that is basically what as you for

Rachel, what scriptures are teaching or leadership

approaches have helped form you?

The Book of Ecclesiastes, as was the first

time, I felt comforted with change. There, you know, I've,

I've learned an awful lot about proof texting and but you know,

in like holding, you know, chapters and stories and things

like this, in general but I, I sit with this part of me that

lives in this pluralist world, and so many people who identify

as spiritual but not religious, that, you know, Ecclesiastes use

has helped me see this, like maybe this outsider book of the

Bible that's written in this way that no other book is written

in, and we've got this, we've got this character in the story

called The teacher who may or may not be, you know, what kind

of influences are sitting here. And yet, it's a part of our

camp. And yet, it's still here. And I think he could ask that

same question for a lot of the different you know, I think a

lot of us who have these favorite books or characters,

you know, we ask those same questions. But it's helped me

wrestle with that a lot of the things I believed at one point

were universal, are so much, but that that's

good Ecclesiastes, he deals a lot with ultimate

questions, you know, vanity and so on, and what is what's it all

about? That kind of stuff?

So that's the stuff right? Yeah.

Well, that's what, that's what we but that's what

we ended up doing in ministry is to struggle with these hard

issues ourselves in order to even be helpful at all with

other people, whatever ministry context that we're in, so I

can't see how about you any scriptures or teachers or

approaches to teaching that is a really foundational for you?

Yeah. I think for me, the Book of Psalms

has really just become one that has really shaped the way that I

view the world. Just that inner connection between how do we

grieve the things that are hard, the things that hurt us the

things that hurt God's heart, and but how do we also see God's

goodness and praise the Lord, even when those things are hard.

And I think I worked as a hospital chaplain two summers

ago. And that's when I really can do just realize the

importance of grief and how everyone grieves differently.

And so the book of Psalms has really been one that has really

just become a special thing in my heart, just because of that

inner connection. But also, I think, someone, a pastor came

into one of my classes once and said, it's so important for us

when we're talking about scripture and talking about

bigger issues, which we're going to get into, to recognize the

context from which and the situation in the historical time

from which that scripture is written, so that we can identify

that but also use that with how we respond in modern day life

that was so hearing, I was like, Oh, my gosh, this makes so much

sense. And why did I never do this before? And I think that,

that has really changed how I read the Bible, how I preach to

my congregation, and just expressing to them the

importance of doing that, but also the importance of

consulting the word, things, and not what we think the word says.

But what is actually in the word, and what is the truth

that's

so awesome to share that I asked you those things,

because I just realized, kind of the foundations, which helped

form us as we apply it to ministry moving forward, because

the next area I want to go with is going to be a little little

bit deeper and a little bit more pertinent to our world right

now. Some decision, you're kind of your foundational thinking

about all these things. And I was talking to a colleague of

mine who retired a year or two ago and, and I said, you know,

I'm really talking to some seminary students here and about

entering ministry and so and what should I ask them? And they

just said, ask them why, why are you going to do this? And if

someone asked you that question that indicated stuff. We're

recording this in April of 20 2021, after a year, more than

a year now have some real, total upheaval in society and our

United Methodist Church. We've had the COVID crisis, which is

impacted. So many people, we've had incredible racial tensions.

We've had, you know, we, with police shootings, and all kinds

of terrible things that have happened. The mass killings, the

community I live in Indianapolis has had a mass killing this

week. We've had, you know, terrible situations with

political just craziness going on the last year or so. And, and

the economy being messed up and no health issues all kinds of

it's been a tough world to live on what's going on United

Methodist Church. But my question has to do with why are

you doing this now? In such a such a time as this, Rachel,

why, why are you doing this?

That's a good question.

I think, on my worst mental health days, I when

I asked myself that question, I had to say, you know, well, why

not? You know what, why not. But I also, on my better days, have

to remember. And I'm lucky to remember what I've been given.

And even just reflecting on the beginning of like, my faith

journey, and how many indirect and informal points of our

lives, we were like, We even touch religious education or

were formed by our faith. People who have never stepped foot in a

church, people who will never say the words United Methodists

are still being formed in their faith on a daily basis. And I, I

know that I have the capacity to listen, and to work to be a

better listener. helper. Not so much teacher anymore. I don't

think but or preacher even. But I, from everything, you've just

said, there is too much pain, there's too much work, there's

still too much in justice, that to check in with those

experiencing it and those understanding it is something I

can do. And when I talk to God about it, I'm reminded that it's

something I need to do.

Awesome. begins you Why, why, why, why, why are you

doing this?

I think, especially just over the last

year, and this has been coming in more true to me and evident

is that I just want people to know that they have a place

where they can be seen known and loved, for whoever they are in

that I want to be a person that makes them feel that way, but

also that they that God sees them in that way. And I think

this time more than ever, people just want to feel that they have

a place that they are wanted and that they belong, and that cares

about them. And I think that I have always been a person that

is compassionate for many types of different people. But also

just I just feel like that's in this time is the space that I am

called to create, in the way that I present the word to

people. And also just reminding people that despite all of the

crap that's going on in the world, and all the issues and

things like that, that God is so good, and that he is still

working, even when it's hard to see. And if I can, I mean I I

would say that I really have been affirmed that I'm a strong

writer and a strong speaker in that I really do try to preach

and teach what is in the word and even if that means sometimes

that challenges people. But I think that that is I know that I

have those abilities and kind of like Rachel like why not use

them if I have and that I you This calling like, why not do

that? I can't let a global pandemic be an excuse to stop a

call because a call doesn't ever stop. It continues to go even in

the changing of seasons and things that are going on. So

well, that's awesome to have that attitude.

Because there are, both of you have mentioned, there's some

hard moments. And there's reality checks we've also talked

about here. And the call has to something has to sustain you and

keep you going when you run into these hard times. And one of the

things that I'm aware of in the world and in our United

Methodist Church is that there is, you know, a lot of distress,

there's a lot of acrimony, there's a lot of anxiety.

There's a lot of people who just have differing views, who feel

that they're not heard, for instance. And so we are

sometimes lacking and finding ways of finding some

commonality. And so Rachel, just want to kind of direct us

towards you. How do you find yourself? When you find yourself

encountering people or situations or political views or

ministry views or views? For instance, you mentioned about

women in ministry and things like this. How do you deal with

that, Rachel, when your encounter with someone who is

just really far off from where you're at? And how do you? How

do you relate to them? And how do you do ministry in those

situations?

Yeah.

How do we, um, every, every interaction is

different, I think for sure. And something that I've really

taken, taken away from, from my work in undergrad. And likewise,

my work and learning about how we teach religious education,

and like just pedagogical methods of like, just doing

teaching anything at all, one of like, the best ways for moving

to this like hierarchical kind of teaching of like, here's the

information, retain it, repeat it habit that we know, like,

that isn't always successful, and it's not really successful

when we're trying to understand one another. And one of the

easiest ways we can start to rethink a different kind of

structure, when it comes to teaching is to first check in

with each other, you know, it's really, I like to always start a

conversation, especially if I don't want to admit to myself

that I have an agenda, but I do have an agenda. To quiet that

part of my mind. And like, remember, the present moment

that I'm in, remember that the person I'm talking to is a child

of God, to give them time to ask them how they are to hear them,

more so than talk to them or with them. And it's to be

committed to the long term sustainability of the agenda

rather than the heightened. The heightened response I may want

to give or the more immediate reaction that I am experiencing

is, is a battle and something that I you know, am blessed to

have the time and the space right now to sort of learn and

hone in on with myself so that I can become a better chaplain, a

better friend, a better daughter, you know, I, to

regulate my own emotions is to work on behalf of others even

better.

Mackenzie, I just kind of address you. I know you

mentioned already in your local church setting how you're one of

the youngest people, for instance, saying we are one of

the few women clergy they've maybe ever have ever had there.

And just I know, that's, for me very much of a downtown

institutional church and so on. So my I'm assuming that and, and

so the question basically is for you, how do you deal with

differences then how do you, you know, whether it's political or

women in ministry, any number of things or theological stuff? How

do you deal with that? As you face that?

Yeah, I mean, in terms of the women in

ministry one that's a really hard one for me because it's

like the one you know, we all have that one thing that we're

like, I would die on the hill for this for any woman to be

like, for me, that's the one that's like I so sometimes it is

really hard for me to and I really had to learn like to not

like Rachel said, Give that heightened response. Especially

in terms of that topic, because that is one that I'm like,

there's no question like that women should be able to be

ministers. And like, Who who are you to say that I can't preach

the word because of my biological self or things like

that. But I mean, I definitely, I mean, I have faced numerous

times here, like, there is a lot of differing opinions of things,

and especially in terms of I am younger, and so some of my views

about things are probably different than a lot of people

here. But I think something that I've had to really learn is that

I, sometimes I have to give myself space to back to back

off, and to really just make clear to them, okay, I need, I

need some time to really think about this, to think about what

you said, to know that I was really listening to you. And

then giving them that response or things that they were hoping

for, which I know is like not cool in today's culture, because

it's very much what I gotta respond right away, I gotta

respond right away, you know, like that back and forth. But I

think that that has really been the way that I have really

learned to you one know, within myself, okay, what are the

things and biases that I have? How are those hindering these

conversations that I'm having? Kind of shutting those things

off? or trying to shut those things off? And then be like,

Okay, what did I hear from what this person is saying? What can

I take from this conversation? And how can I respond in a way

that is graceful and compassionate, while still not

agreeing 100% with what they said, but see where they came

from. And I think allowing myself to step back and take

that space, and then communicate to them, I need to take this

space to do this. Even though sometimes you get a negative

response to that. I think that has been something that has been

really helpful for me, in responding to things,

Rachel and Mackenzie, I think one of the

real temptations will be come out of a academic sort of

environment, and college, seminary, and even in youth

group, and so on. And especially if we've had overall kind of

more or less positive experience, is when we're

encountered with a negative or some sort of pushback, we kind

of have to take a breath ourselves and kind of say, Okay,

how do I need to respond to this, and what the temptation is

there, and I'll speak for myself, because, you know, I

went and got advanced degrees and all that kind of stuff and,

and had good experiences is the temptation is kind of thinking,

Okay, well, I've got some answers here. Because I've got

educated and so on, so forth. And, and when those are

rejected, it's kind of like, okay, that, that didn't go like

I thought. So I think the talent comes into play here and wait,

both you both, you're exhibiting here, and some really amazing

ways is to take a breath and listen, take a breath and

listen, and to seek to really be that on anxious voice in anxious

times, which is hard to do sometimes, especially if you if

your buttons get pushed, like mine do some time. And so I just

want to encourage you that I'm hearing some good stuff here

from you about how to handle conflict, how to be engaged in

ministry without being without being a jerk, you know, which is

kind of way, oftentimes the church comes across as being

kind of, you know, obnoxious and dogmatic and so on, in such a

way that it's not helpful. And I wish and my hope for you, moving

on to the even more helpful, and everything because we live in a

time right now. And both of you're very aware that

everything we were about as United Methodist is on the table

is being challenged, and it's on the line. And the reality is, is

that well, I was like I was talking to a pastor friend of

mine not too long ago of another denomination and conversation.

You know, I'm a United Methodist. And he said, Oh, I

mean, you're the Untied Methodist. So. So the point I

want to get here with you is that how do you you know, the

reality isn't United Methodist Church, that we are almost

certainly heading towards a division of some sort in the

next year or so or more. How does that impact your approach

to ministry or your approach to entering into this world or does

it at all? And I just because I just think this is the reality

that almost every United Methodist has to deal with how

we're going to cheat dog. We're going to have to choose sides.

Are we going to have to somehow straddle the middle or we're

going to have to somehow be one thing to one group of people

within another group of people? How are we going to handle this?

And how are we going to be true to ourselves to true to our

calling in the midst of this, that's something every clergy is

dealing with right now, every lay person in one form or

another is dealing with. But I'm really interested in the take of

seminary students as they have to deal with this. Not only your

academic environment, but in the church environmental, how do you

deal with this dilemma here? So I'll ask you first, Rachel,

I think

something that you know, and maybe we're tired

of, you know, something that the pandemic has taught us or

something that this has brought up, you know, starting phrases

like that. But something that this pandemic, I think has shown

us is, what are we going to do? If we don't have the control? We

thought we did? What are we going to do? Was it the control

of a situation that brought us joy? Or is it? Is it finding

contentment in what the situation is, isn't saying, I'm

committed to moving forward here? I think that this time

that we're in is showing us, like you said, a lot more

questions than there are answers. And I think that our,

our structure, our response time, our mission, and our

identity, are things that require those questions require

this thought. But along the way, we also have to see who we're

hurting in that process of waiting to figure out the

answers.

Well, Mackenzie, you know, you, you're now

serving in a church? What's your thoughts about how we, I'm sure

some of these conversations are going on in your local church,

for instance? Well, how do we deal with it? How do we deal

with what's going on in the world of our United Methodist

right now?

Yeah. I think that, in my own personal

life, like this whole process has of what are what is the

United Methodist going to church going to choose? Like? What is

going to happen? I think it really has been a grieving

process, because I've like I've grown up United Methodist, and

just to see that the tradition that I hold dear to my heart, is

not going to be what it once was. And that's, and that's

evident, and, and really having to greet within myself like

that. It's not going to be how it was. But also, I think, yeah,

kind of like, what the pandemic has taught me, it really has is

that sometimes the things in the structures need to change or

changes happening, because there's a greater plan for God

in that God has for the United Methodist Church, in place,

whatever that may be. And I mean, that in that's

out of chaos creation, perhaps.

Yeah. And I think it's, it's really hard in

the place of being a clergy because yeah, like you, like you

had mentioned, like, Where am I gonna end up? Like, am I going

to be in this area? Or this area? And what's that going to

look like? That's really scary. Because it's like, I just want

to do ministry, I just want to break, like, glorify God in what

I do. But what if that means that, you know, the United

Methodist Church, as I known, it is not the place for me. And

this is where I thought it was for me. I know, that's a

question that a lot of clergy are probably having right now.

Because I've had that same question. Um, but yeah, I don't

think that the change the condition that I'm serving in,

they don't enjoy change at all. But I think something that

they've really grown in in that I'm glad to see is that they

realize that things can change and not always be the same as

they were and God can still be glorified and that things can be

good or even better than what they were before. And I think

that with this whole everything that's going to happen. I really

want that to be my mindset going in is that, okay? Whatever

happens, maybe something better is coming out of it. But it is,

it's a grieving process. It really is a grieving process.

With all this, and there's a lot to take in.

Well, let's hope so I'll be praying for that,

because it has reminds me of dramatic and traumatic

experiences people have such as going through a major surgery or

cancer or something or also divorces that happened and

people can or, you know, Major, like losing a business, any

number of things. You can get through these things, but it's

painful, it's hurtful, and you can emerge healthier, I'm

different, but you will be different. And, and so and there

are some, some creation and some hope in that. And so there's

really got it just kind of this one more thought for you, Rachel

and Mackenzie to to reflect on here. Just one more thing. Hope.

You know, we've talked a little bit about some challenges. We've

talked about some, some realities, some good experiences

you had growing up, and in your college experiences and seminary

experiences, we also talked about so challenges here, to our

personal faith and to our, our world at your church. But right

what are some signs of hope you see, either in your life or for

the life of mission and ministry moving forward sides of hope.

Yeah, and bringing it back to like the

seminary context, something that gives me hope, is the amount of,

or just the amount of students and incredibly wonderful people

who are called to go get an M div, or go get an MTS or, you

know, or see Seminary in a new way that aren't planning on

getting ordained that are going and doing new and exciting

things and finding the right words to back that up. I think

even in my own conversations with people, sometimes I say I'm

going to graduate school to study religion. And sometimes I

say, I'm going to seminary to be a chaplain depending on who I'm

talking to. Because I think that where we are now requires us to

wear a lot of new hats in order to do the work of ministry, and

to talk about it to articulate that, and it's an that is

happening. So wonderful, and cool. People in conversations

that I've had to have in just the last year and a half have

been. I've been so grateful for. And I, without a doubt the hope

is there in this particular field, but in an individual and

generational way. We have to remind ourselves to to actively

look for hope and to actively look for these good things. And

to, to have that and to be surrounded by people who are

committed to that. Yeah.

I love that phraseology use there, Rachel

actively look for hope. So I can't wait for this to come to

you. We can't let things just habitus, we have to be proactive

and be be engaged. And so because he asked you signs of

hope, what do you see signs of hope either in your life, your

church, your experiences, ministry, moving forward signs

of hope?

Yeah, I think one of the coolest things

I've seen in the midst of a pandemic is just the creative

ways that we have learned to minister to other people,

whether that be online through doing virtual services, or just

really having to change the way that we connect with people. And

I think that is something that I think a lot of people, a lot of

churches, a lot of church leaders and just other leaders

have realized, this is important. And like, we need to

continue to do this. And I, I just remember at the beginning

of the pandemic, just seeing the way that people, especially

people of faith, were interacting with one another and

be like, I'm here for you. I'm praying for you like they are

the things that gives me hope that, okay, there's in amongst

all this, like, people want to connect with others in a new,

inviting way. And it is also giving more people if they

choose to have access to services in ways that they maybe

wouldn't before. Or devotionals or other other things that can

bring them closer to Christ on their own terms. I think that's

something that has just been so cool to see and that I'm so

hopeful for But yeah, I think also just people asking

questions. This is really weird of the church and ministers and

about God in all of this in the midst of all that's going on

with a pandemic, and social unrest, and just asking people,

Christians and the church like, what are you gonna do about it?

Like, what is your response to it? Like, I think really calling

us into proactive action, like, you can't sit idle anymore, like

what is going to happen? I think that having those questions be

asked in such a breath of fresh air and gives me so much hope

that people are asking the question, but that we as

religious leaders, and people who just care that are in the

faith, like even just people who are in the faith, are willing to

work, most people willing to explore those questions, and

then do something about that. I think that is something I'm

really has brought me a lot of hope, and I'm hopeful will

continue. Even when things start to ramp down a little, whenever

that would be

awesome, great things to share there from both,

both of you there. And my, my reflection with you, my my word

of hope comes into play when I have conversations with people

like McKenzie, Philips and Rachael Haynes, because it gets,

you know, I've been to temptation for somebody to use

in ministry for 40 something years like me. And so my

contemporaries is that, you know, you, there's always a

temptation to be a little jaded or cynical, and that about, you

know, but things really don't change all that much. After

working hard, and so on. Sometimes they say they do

sometimes you say that they don't and, but what gives me a

great deal of hope, because I've sometimes I've wondered what's

going on in the colleges, seminaries end up calling to

ministry. And here I see, you know, people who are definitely

called, definitely called, and you're also sharing the stories

about other people who are in the ranks, who have not been,

you know, dissolve it to despair or dismay about what's going on

in the world, or in our church, or you know, the whole

circumstances of society going on. You know, you deal with

reality, you got to deal with reality, you got to deal with

the brutal facts and still move, move forward in faith. It's kind

of good to great thinking, which I ascribe to that here you are

saying that you're hearing it, you're in it to win it, you're

in to be a part of the long haul and to be the child of God who

offers good things to others. So I just want to say thank you, to

Rachel, to Rachel and Mackenzie, forgive me a little bit of hope,

a little pop up for me today. And I think it's going to be a

word of encouragement to our listeners on the United

Methodist people podcast. So again, my thanks to Mackenzie

Phillips, who is the pastor on the staff at high street United

Methodist Church in Muncie, Indiana and student at Christian

Theological Seminary in Indianapolis. And to Rachael

Haynes, who is a student at Canvas School of Theology in

Atlanta, Georgia. And both these, these young women are

going to be a force to be reckoned with in the church

moving forward because they are passionate about Jesus Christ,

and about making impact for the world through the church. And

they're, I don't know what we're going to see but it's going to

be books, it's going to be ministries, it's going to be an

impact of some form or another that's going to be awesome. And

God is doing a good thing. So Rachel, and because he thank you

for being our guest today on on the United Methodist people