Terry sits down with psychotherapist and podcast host Richard Nicholls for a conversation that goes far deeper than International Men’s Day soundbites.

What starts as a lighthearted catch-up quickly opens into something honest, warm, and surprisingly relatable.

Richard breaks down what a psychotherapist actually does, before the two dive into the messy, complicated reality of being a man today: expectations, identity, emotional depth, stereotypes, and why so many blokes still feel the pressure to “stand on the roadside” and protect everyone around them.

Along the way, Terry shares openly about the last few years of his life; highs, lows, losses, and personal growth, while Richard explores how men process difficulty, why emotional expression still feels taboo, and how lived experience shapes behaviour more than we realise.

They also dig into loneliness, cultural messages about masculinity, and the challenges male driving instructors face around mental health, wellbeing, and identity.

It’s thoughtful, funny in places, and packed with those moments where you find yourself nodding along because it just makes sense.

If you want a conversation that feels human, grounded, and genuinely useful, especially if you're a man navigating the world or someone supporting men, this is well worth your time.

Listen to the Richard Nicholls Podcast

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The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.

Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.

This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor and run a better driving school.

As always, I am your splendid northern horse, Terry Cook.

I'm delighted to be here, but even more delighted that you have chosen to listen because we are back with a very specific episode for you today as we celebrate International Men's Day.

And I am joined by Richard Nichols, who is the host of the Richard Nichols Podcast, the Richard Nichols Patreon Podcast, and author of 15 Minutes to Happiness.

And we dive into all things men, including how we can better look after ourselves, how we can open up and talk, and potentially even looking at some of the good stuff behind men as well.

So wherever you sit on that gender spectrum, this could be an interesting one for you.

Whether you want to learn more about yourself or someone else, give this a listen and look after yourself.

But before we dive in, I want to point you in the direction of the Instructor Podcast premium.

If you want more of this high quality type of audio, then make sure I check that out at patreon.com forward/the instructor or go straight to the show notes.

You can find a link over there.

You can can help yourself to a seven day free trial or sign up straight away and get a 16% discount on an annual membership.

But for now, let's get stuck into the show.

So we are now joined by psychotherapist and the star of the Richard Nichols podcast, Mr. Richard Nichols.

How are we doing?

I'm all right.

How are you doing, Terry?

All the better for seeing your smiley face, obviously, and delighted to have you along making a triumphant return to the podcast.

And I want to ask you a question, psychotherapist.

What is a psychotherapist?

Because we're here psychologists, we're psychotherapists, we're therapists, we're counselors.

Where does psychotherapist fit into that?

Well, a therapist is somebody that theraps, I guess.

So they provide therapy, they help to make people feel in some way better.

Now, a psychotherapist is specifically focused on somebody's psychology to help them to feel better.

The origins of the word, it comes from healing of the psyche.

The psyche means the soul originally.

So it's the healing of the soul deep inside your personality, the thing that makes you you, it's helping to heal that.

So a psychotherapist would tend to look into how you got to where you are.

So you come in With a load of symptoms.

Could be depression, could be anxiety, could be behavioral stuff.

And a psychotherapist would, would sit down and go, well, let's look at how this started.

Gain some understanding and awareness of how come you turned into this.

Not turned into this character, that's not what we would say, but how you develop these habits or whatever.

And with that awareness you can.

It's easier then to change.

A counsellor is very much about the here and the now.

So you go in with those symptoms and they would help you to feel understood with those symptoms.

They might do some psychotherapy but they'd be more interested in the here and the now.

Tell me how that feels.

That's a counsellor, whereas, tell me about your mother.

That's a psychotherapist.

Whereas a psychiatrist.

They're going to provide medication.

They went to medical school, they're doctors.

And what was the other, the other option?

Forget the other ones.

You said psychologist.

Oh, yeah, a psychologist.

That's just somebody with a psychology degree.

But that psychology degree could be in forensic psychology, it could be in behavioral psychology or even market research, you know.

So they're not necessarily a therapist, they're just interested in what makes people tick.

Well, today I am going to try and turn this into a sneaky psychotherapy session for me.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Get myself sorted while I'm on here.

But we're recording this for International Wednesday.

This will be going out on the 19th of November, which international men's Day.

So it's on the right, I should say.

Happy International Men's Day.

Richard, back at you, buddy.

Excellent.

Well, I did mention this before we started recording that, but I was thinking about how to start this episode because I always put a lot of thought into how we start it because that dictates the whole kind of theme and feel of the show, I think.

And I was kind of stuck in a bit of a negative angle, so I thought, right, let's go for something positive.

So I asked ChatGPT for what are the great things about men?

And I'm going to tell you what it said and I'll be interested in your thoughts.

So I won't go into all the details.

I kind of do the bullet points, which was men show up when it counts, they take responsibility seriously.

The protect and support the problem solvers.

They lead by doing, not just talking.

Men are loyal, men have a great sense of humor and men are capable of huge emotional depth.

I was surprised to read that one, actually.

Men are brave in ways that don't get talked about, and they genuinely want to make a difference.

So the 10 things that ChatGPT come up with, that's great about men, what are your thoughts on those?

I don't know.

I feel a bit funny about it.

I mean, it's certainly true, but it sounds a little bit like the Barnum effect, that there's something there for everybody, like horoscopes, because I'm sure pretty much all of those would count for women as well.

But of course, men in our culture, we do have those extra expectations, and you'll see these on social media quite often.

I saw something a couple of weeks ago, and I didn't comment, but I nearly did.

And it was a picture of.

It was just a couple, a man and a woman holding hands.

They were walking down a path, and there was.

The woman was walking nearer to the curb, the man was walking nearer to a fence.

And the, the, the caption just said, tell me what's wrong with this picture.

And then it was just full of men underneath saying, yeah, he should be one closest to the road so he can.

He can protect her if a car mounts the path.

And another part of me says, she can stand where the she likes.

It's not up to a man to have that responsibility to always protect.

You don't have to take that on your shoulders.

That's demeaning to a woman, for a start, but also it's far too much pressure for a man.

Can we not just all be equal, please?

And I recognize that physiologically there are going to be some differences between men and women, but emotionally, absolutely not.

That's been proven time and time again that men are just as emotional as women.

It's just that we live in a culture where men aren't allowed to be Neil.

Attacked a little bit.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I think this is maybe where some of the problems can stem from.

And I think that's a great example, because soon as you describe that picture, I kind of knew where you were going.

And it's like, I will do that.

I will walk on that curbside.

And this isn't a partial blame, but I was raised that way.

What the gentleman does, you know, and, and I think it's that it is.

It's that protective instinct.

And I. I'd be interested if you agree, because I think that that is part of the problem nowadays in that it's when is it right to protect?

Is it right to protect, you know, because as you mentioned, there are often physical characteristics differences between a man and a woman where it may be appropriate for a man to behave a certain way, but then other ways it's not.

And I think that there's, there's a.

We can be lost sometimes as men as where do we fit in?

If 100 years ago we were the more with hunter gatherer it was our duty to protect and now all that's changed and.

Yeah.

What are your thoughts on that?

It's true to say that women often think of themselves as in danger and women do think that the world is a dangerous place and the media will suggest that.

That it's a dangerous place.

They will report on a lot of the problems that go on in the world and the attacks against women.

So it is true to say that women might be in danger, but the most dangerous person to any woman throughout her life is a husband.

Statistically, if somebody's going to be harmed, if a woman is going to be harmed by anybody, it's going to be her partner.

70% of attacks against women are by their partner.

They're not by random youths in the street.

They're not by.

By refugees that come off boats.

It's from their partner.

What makes those partners angry?

What, what gets them triggered?

Is something worth, worth asking the question why?

What is it that's upsetting somebody so much that they get violent, that they get angry, that they feel they've got to take revenge, that they've, they've got to lash out in, in whatever way.

There's the extremes of, you know, you know, the serious dangers that we hear about.

And then there's the ordinary relationship stuff where you might just be a bit grumpy or have the car give them the cold shoulder or just call them names or just, just throw a mug.

I say just.

Actually, no, that's a bit much, throwing a mug.

Please don't go around throwing mugs.

If you feel the urge to.

Yeah, see a psychotherapist.

Where does that come from?

Yeah, you're a psychotherapist, so you're probably a person.

Ideal postrast.

You think that it's easier.

Again, maybe I'm talking stereotypes, but do you think it's easier for women to reach out and go and see a psychotherapist or someone?

And men naturally find that harder because the stigma is that we are the protectors.

It is getting better, I must admit.

If I look in my diary now, compared to 15 years ago, there's a lot more men.

There really are.

So I've been doing this a long time.

Back then, almost every client I saw was a woman.

That is not the case anymore.

I mean, I'll give you a little sneaky peek into my diary to a degree this week.

Wow.

I got more men tomorrow and more women on Thursday, and then one of each in between.

So it's.

It's pretty much 50, 50 at the minute.

So men are putting their hand in the air nowadays and saying, yeah, I think I need some help.

But the fact that women have already been doing this for all of our lifetime, there's still a lot of catching up to do.

There's still a lot of men out there who will probably say no if admitting you've got a problem in any way, shape or form is a weakness.

And you cannot display that, because then if you're seen as being weak, somebody will take advantage of you.

They will hurt you.

Whether they'll humiliate you or they will attack you.

There's this feeling that men can't be and shouldn't be vulnerable.

Well, how's that working out for the suicide rates?

I mean, I'll hold my hands up here and I'll.

I'll own up to one of my flaws or mistakes, probably a better word here, because I fell into a trap of being quite dismissive of men at times.

You know, you gave the example there of the biggest problem that women have is men.

Even if we look at our industry of driving instructors, the biggest killer of teenage girls is teenage boys driving cars.

And it falls back on almost like the men are the problem.

And so I used to be quite dismissive.

You know, there's been years in the past where I've done special episodes for International Women's Day, and I've got, you know, women on to host it.

And I've changed the.

The intro voice to a woman and made it all about that.

But I've never done anything for men.

And my logic has always been, well, I'm a man.

I'm hosting it, you know, and.

And then there's the idea of we're causing a lot of the problems and somewhat shifted in me this year.

Yeah.

And I did some early on this year.

I think it was a men's mental health awareness month.

And I did something then.

And I've decided, obviously, do this today.

And it's like, no, no.

Even if I'm looking at it like we're the problem, I should be trying to Find a way to help solve that problem.

Thought.

Yeah.

Do you, do you find that, do you come across that is maybe even though.

Is that something you struggle with sometimes?

I'd imagine not.

But the idea of we can be too dismissive of men because often we are the problem.

Yes.

I mean, we can overcompensate if we're not careful.

And that can be seen in so many different places where somebody wants to be.

They're so desperate to not to be one thing that they'll end up causing problems the other end of the scale that they'll be so desperate to not be racist that they'll end up being racist.

How did that even happen?

Well, I, I, I didn't want to use the word black, so I didn't use it.

Right.

But that person called themselves black, so that's probably gonna tell you that that's okay, that that's how they want to be called.

Well, it sounded racist.

Like, just think, think.

But maybe people are petrified about hurting people.

Yeah, that's not a bad thing.

But it does mean that with many issues, we need to step back and go, what do I really want to see happen here?

And how do, what do I really mean by this?

Yeah.

So I, I want to try and tie a couple of things together, and I'm, I'm not sure the question I'm going to finish on this, so bear with me.

But I mentioned stereotypes a couple of times now.

I think I'll use that word today, the stereotype of man or stereotype of a driving instructor, and think that I am the perfect example of a stereotype of a driving instrument.

I think if you ask someone to draw a driving shot, they draw me.

You know, bald, overweight, essentially bearded, a bit unhealthy.

The divorce, they're alone, the mid-40s, I think that's the stereotype.

And obviously it's not a true representation, but I think it is a stereotype and I fit into that.

And I think that when you look at that, there's a lot of negative connotations go with it.

I mentioned the, the unhealthiness, you know, the, the sitting in the car all day, not eating properly, that kind of stuff.

The, the alone aspect.

There's more and more men that are getting into the 40s and 50s and they're getting divorced.

And I think it's harder, and maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but I think it's harder or at least hard for men at this age to start again.

You know, I think there is this, and I felt this for a while.

There is this stigma of failure.

You know, when you get into your 40s, if you're alone, if you don't have a family, you know you're the failure and you're the one that's let people down.

You know, you've let the wife down, you've let your kids down.

I don't.

And I don't think it's particularly viewed the.

The other way to all.

You know, I think that's often directed at men.

So there will be a chunk of people listening to this that fit that stereotype now and are feeling that kind of way.

So I suppose what would you say to people that that sort of are in that, or at least fit part of those stereotypes?

I would definitely challenge it because we.

Going back to something that we were saying earlier on, that men feel more responsible for things than they actually are.

And if your relationship has deteriorated to the point of divorce, that's on both of you, and it's probably it.

Well, it must.

It's likely to be the right thing, that this relationship has come to an end, and it is the right thing.

One, we clearly not happy with each other.

There's problems here.

But two, even if I.

Even if.

Even if, say, a woman falls out of love with the man, well, does he really want to be in a relationship with somebody who doesn't love him?

No.

That clearly that relationship either needs a lot of therapy, a lot of relationship counseling, which is great, go for that.

But if things can't be worked out, if genuinely people's lives are going in different directions, it has to end.

And that's a fact.

And that's on both of them.

That it just is.

I've gone off in that direction, you've gone off in that direction.

And we're two different people now.

And it took us 15 years to get to that.

But it has.

And that is sad, but it's.

It's on both of them.

But if a man does feel, as many do, that they are responsible for everything, whether it's the bills being paid, the gutters being cleaned, whatever it is, if they carry this feeling that everything's my.

My responsibility, it's going to feel like everything's my fault.

And if something goes wrong, that's my fault.

And that's when people get angry because I haven't.

I'm just doing my best here, and it's clearly not enough.

And that's when mugs get smashed.

Well, we need to challenge that and say, no, it's sad.

But we don't need to go smashing mugs.

These things are great.

Get tea.

Like where we're going to be without mugs.

Know what?

I love a good mug.

I'm a bit of a collector of mugs.

And.

And I need to stop.

So I've got too many.

Anyway, another story, another day.

This is diagnosable, Terry.

You do know that I told you.

I make it into a session.

But so for those people now that are listening to this and, and they've gone through divorce.

In fact, you know what?

I'll give my quick example.

I.

When I got divorced, I think there was a period there when I. I felt those ways.

I felt like a. I'd failed.

I felt like I'd.

I didn't feel like a man.

You know, I've gone from having a wife, a stepson, a dog, a home.

You know, I'd gone from having this to having nothing.

It's like I'm.

I'm far.

You know, I'm living in this flat by myself.

And it took a while for that mindset shift.

And one of the things that helped it was reframing for me, the end of the marriage.

And this, I'm sure, could apply to lots of stuff.

But for the marriage example, I went from thinking my marriage failed to thinking my marriage was a success for nine years.

And then it ended.

Well done.

And I'm obsessed with failure.

I should chuck this in now.

I think failure is a brilliant thing.

So I still consider my marriage as failing because it didn't go the way I wanted it to go.

But I don't think it was a bad thing anymore.

The failure is just the end of that chapter and onto a next chapter for me.

So when I say a failure, it's not a bad thing.

But at the time I was thinking it was a bad thing.

So how can we reframe?

I'll give my example of reframing there, but is.

Is reframing the right thing to do often?

Is it.

Is it something we should be doing more of with this stuff?

How can we reframe?

I realize I've asked you about seven questions there, but make it what you will.

Yeah, obviously there is.

There's no one rule that says we should always be like this.

And there's absolutely that.

No, it's context dependent.

Everything is context dependent.

But many things can be reframed.

And certainly I really appreciate the fact that you did the work to look at that that says it wasn't just that my marriage was a failure at that point.

It was a success for all these years.

What I'm interested in is this feeling that you carried that said you are less than a.

Less of a man.

Now because of this, because we're going back to those stereotypes of what it is to be a man, when actually you were no less of a man than any more than you were less of a human.

You are no less because of the situation that you're in.

And that does need challenging.

That does need a bit of a reframe.

And that can definitely come about by turning that from that year of failure where the marriage was going downhill, for example, into, we had nine years where we were very happy together.

I'm not going to erase those nine years.

We had some lovely trips.

We had some nice times.

We had some laughs and we had some fun.

I'm not gonna delete that just because of this rough patch that we had here that brought the marriage to an end.

We had happy times.

I'm not gonna dismiss that.

It's not easy, and it takes a lot of talking it through, which is a lot of men's issue where they don't talk things through.

They just sit with it and feel it, but without really knowing what they're feeling.

So what I would say to anybody is, figure out what you feel.

Because there is more to our emotions than anger and bravado.

But it seems that with men, that's all they've got, when actually we've got underneath all of that disappointment, frustration, impatience, guilt.

There's lots of different things that we can feel, but we don't stick a word to it.

So we either.

If.

If we feel bad, we're angry, and if it's good, then we're proud.

Well, there's a thousand things that we can be feeling.

And I'd say to anybody, check how you're feeling.

Because there's a need that comes from that feeling.

If you have an emotion, figure out what it is and ask yourself, what do I need?

What is this feeling telling me?

Because there is a part.

You see, emotions are when your thoughts are operating so automatically that there's no words to it.

So it's just a feeling within the body.

Well, what would, though.

Turn it into a word.

What would it be?

And then ask why?

So you're feeling something.

Well, I'm feeling angry.

Why?

Why am I feeling angry?

Well, because I was hurt.

Okay, why did that hurt?

And you.

You play with it.

You chunk it down and down and down until you can look at the bottom and see what.

What do I need?

What's really going on here.

And maybe you need to heal because maybe having an argument with your wife, which you then play with and go, well, that made me angry because she ignored me.

And I felt hurt because she ignored me.

I felt belittled, I felt stupid.

I felt like a child.

Oh, I see.

And you get to the bottom and go, well, it reminded me of being seven years old and being told off by my teacher, for example.

The key thing then to do with that is to communicate, which we've obviously said at the beginning is somewhat that men struggle with.

So whether that's the wife and saying, look, this is how I am now.

This is what I need, or whether it's communicated with a wider public.

So if someone was struggling to communicate that or share that feeling, how can we best encourage them to do that?

Well, it starts there.

It starts in just saying that I'm struggling to acknowledge how I feel.

I really struggle to talk about how I feel.

It starts there.

That is step one, because that's how you open the door to learning to feel safe, being vulnerable.

And that's a big issue for anybody.

But it's in our culture, it's particularly difficult for men to allow that feeling of vulnerability in and accept that this is what it is to be human, to feel that I could get humiliated.

You go back to when we were younger, and I know things have changed a little bit now in certain circles, not everywhere, but men were just take the mick.

That's all they did.

You just sit around pub tables and find a reason to rip into somebody.

And that was a fun night out.

And it probably still is to some degree, but there's a time and a place for it.

And I'd like to think that, yeah, you can be in that sort of environment, but when somebody says, I'm really struggling with stuff lately, I don't really know what it is, but I've just been really quite overwhelmed and stressed, and some days I just don't want to get out of bed.

Whoa, Tumbleweed.

Yeah.

It's not the most joyful of conversations, but if we never open up to our closest friends that that's how we might feel, then they don't really know us.

They know a mask that we put on, and that's not something that we want to continue with.

Because if that keeps going on for another five years or whatever, you'll feel even lonelier.

Could be in a group of your best friends.

But nobody really knows me because they don't see the real me.

And that can make us feel very, very lonely.

And loneliness is a big issue in mental health.

It really is.

It's one of the major causes of sending people down the suicide ideation route.

So if you can spot that early on, we can save lives.

Want to come back to loneliness in a second?

Because I do think that's quite a big topic and I think it's quite relevant to our industry.

But just before we do, just to touch on that a little bit more, I wonder if you've seen this video.

It does surrounds a lot on like TikTok and Instagram and Facebook reels and stuff.

And it's some lads playing.

I think it's Call of Duty and they're talking to each over it and one of it says, if I had a problem, would you guys be here for me?

And straight away someone says, no, we won't.

And then they'll be like the joking and the kind of taking maker saying, no, I'd ask how you want help ending it, you know, and it's kind of lads banter and they're laughing and there's really mixed response in the comments.

And it's interesting because the way I take it is he hasn't asked for help.

This lad is joking with his mates and his mates are joking back.

And I get the feeling that if he'd have said I'm struggling, they would have been there for him.

Now, I don't know that.

And I think that that kind of goes back to what you mentioned before about sometimes it can go too far, you know, by trying not to be racist, we actually round up being racist, whatever it.

So do you think it's important that we.

Maybe this is more of a British thing than a man thing.

I don't know.

But, you know, I'm sure you do it.

I don't know.

I do it.

All right, not bad.

You know, it's that.

Do you think it's important we don't lose that?

We don't sacrifice that, but also make sure that people know we are there for them.

So when someone has a problem, we are there.

We check in on people, how they are, but we don't lose that.

That British quirkiness of all right, knobbed.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, granted, like I say, there are.

There's no specific rules for Everybody.

And.

But if that's a relationship, if that's a relationship style that you've got with somebody, you don't change, because that's going to make them feel more alienated.

They might already feel that they're being talked about or they're being treated differently because they've acknowledged maybe they've got depression.

And they say they.

They meet up with a group of friends every Friday and for six Fridays on the trot, they message and say, just not feeling it at the minute, just having another.

Just having another Friday off.

Just having another Friday off.

And eventually somebody says there's something going on with him.

Let.

Let's see what's going on.

And he admits, yeah, I've been really ill for a couple of months.

I've been to my gp, I'm on some medication now, I'm on a waiting list for counseling.

But, yeah, I've been really struggling lately, ever since then, the few things that might have caused it.

If we start treating people differently because of that, in a way that makes them feel worse, then they're going to feel worse.

They're not going to feel that it's safe to be them with depression, because we would do it with any other issue.

If somebody's got a problem with their lungs and they have to carry an inhaler everywhere they go, and every now and again they have to say to their friends in the middle of a conversation in the pub, just give me a minute, I just need a minute.

And then they use their inhaler.

If somebody says, oh, I didn't realize you got.

Is that asthma?

Yeah, terrible asthma.

Interesting.

And then we just carry on.

Or diabetes, we just go, oh, that's interesting.

And then we carry on.

We don't treat them differently, but when it's about the brain, we start treating people differently because for some reason we might get a bit embarrassed about that.

We don't know what to say, whether that's because of grief or whether it's because of clinical depression, whatever it is that's causing somebody's mood disorder, if that's how we want to label it, we have to acknowledge that and we have to see that person for who they are with what they've got.

If we don't know what to say, then we say that.

We go, I don't know what to say.

Nothing to say, mate.

Oh, well, if you need to say, know that you can say it here.

All right, chief, then that's all.

That.

That's all.

Anyway, I get a pinting and off you go.

And we're just taking a quick break.

And while I've got you, I want to tell you something that'll genuinely make you a better instructor.

See, if you listen to this on the public feed, you're only getting a tiny slice of what I do.

The real conversations, the real teaching, the stuff you simply don't find anywhere else in this industry.

That all lives inside the instructor premium.

You know, we're talking full archive access, every expert session, every deep dive, every behind the scenes chat, plus new content dropping all the time, video, audio, written pieces, all the workbooks for the episodes.

It's the kind of CPD that isn't cookie cutter, it's not recycled and it's not the same things doing the rounds over and over again.

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You think there's still that thing of if I can't see it or if it doesn't apply to me, it's not true.

We're just making up an excuse.

Ignorance is bliss.

Yeah.

If I can't see it, it doesn't exist.

But it doesn't mean it.

It doesn't exist just because you don't acknowledge it, whether that's in yourself or whether it's in somebody else.

If you don't acknowledge what's going on for somebody else, you'll push them away.

Yeah.

It's interesting because I think this is real.

I think this example works.

I had, I got diagnosed somewhere called Gilbert.

It's not doing it now.

I'm gonna say it's not serious, it isn't super serious, but I got diagnosed somewhere called Gilbert syndrome, about.

How old am I?

43, about 23 years ago.

And come forth to hospital, try to find out what was wrong and no one could figure it out.

And eventually, oh, Gilbert syndrome.

I went, okay, cool, what is it?

We don't really know.

We don't know much about it.

I said, okay, well, I've had a lot of time off work.

Can you give me some sort of document that I can take to work?

And okay, so they put this thing off.

On the top of this sheet it said, if you've got Gilbert's syndrome, you are not ill.

I'm like, oh, I can't take that to work.

But basically the way that I describe Gilbert syndrome is it makes your symptoms worse and it's got some other stuff.

But that's how I described it at the time.

And I was told by the doctor it's nothing serious and I dismissed it like that, okay, can't worry about it.

And it was about five or six years ago when I was back at the doctor for something else and they asked me and I start, just so you know, I've got this Gilbert syndrome and oh, actually I've just been looking into that and they started telling me about it.

I'm like, oh, well that explains a lot because they said one of the symptoms that comes along with it is fatigue.

I'm like, I'm not lazy.

I always assumed I was just lazy because everyone else could do all this stuff all the time.

And I struggled and I just thought I was lazy.

And then someone said, no, you've got this.

And as soon as I said it, well, I could wear had been lifted off my shoulders.

And also I was able then to factor in and I can budget for it now on account of what I do and I never feel lazy anymore and I get loads more done because I can factor it in rather than like, head down, asshole, plow through and try and get stuff done.

Well, the way I look at it, what you were doing there, it's a bit like.

It's a bit like trying to carry a tray of drinks with a cushion under your arm.

If you ever tried to put something under your arm and then carry a tray of drinks, those drinks are really difficult to carry.

But what if you put another cushion under the other arm?

That's really, really difficult.

And what if you put another cushion on top of the drinks that you're carrying as well?

Now you're carrying lots and lots of different things.

Well, you might as you started off just carrying one cushion and a tray of drinks, but then you got another cushion under the other arm and that is shame.

So I'm carrying shame now and that makes everything else more difficult.

Well, now I'm carrying a feeling of being a failure and letting down my family or letting down my co workers or letting down my students or whatever, there's all of these different things that you end up carrying.

No, you were just carrying one cushion and a tray of drinks.

That's all you were doing.

You started adding more on and you just drop everything.

Whether that's because of Gilbert syndrome, depression Chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, autism, adhd, whatever it is that's going on for somebody that makes their life a bit more difficult than maybe a typical, typical person's life would be.

Just carry your life.

Don't add to it with shame, because you're gonna drop everything.

I mean, for me, again, I'm telling my story, but I think that's.

That's what it was, how dismissed it was at the time.

So I just carried that with me.

And also, you know, I'm a man.

I need to crack on and do, you know, manly things and growl and stuff.

But the best thing about Gilbert Sidney Ranch, and I only found this out very, very recently discovered by a French person.

So technically it's Gilbert syndrome.

Gilbert, which sounds a lot better.

But, you know, I'm going to add one more thing just to kind of maybe almost tie a bow in this, this, this section, if you like.

I've.

I've started seeing this lovely lady now.

And I mean, no disregard to anyone else when I say this, but I told her somewhere recently that I was struggling with, and she.

She kind of went quiet, not in a bad way, like thinking, and she went, how can I help?

That's mental.

Good.

Oh, that's awesome.

And it's like, wow.

You know, I don't maybe exaggerate when I say this, but I don't think I've had anyone say that before.

And it just made me realize the impact of offering to help when someone says they're struggling rather than dismissing.

So, yeah, how can.

How can I help?

It's a big thing.

That's wonderful.

That really is.

Yeah.

But you mentioned something before.

You mentioned the word loneliness.

And I wanted to talk a little bit this today because want to ask you if there is a male loneliness epidemic, in your opinion.

But before I do, I want to just chuck in almost an element of context around this because maybe almost specifically, do you recognize a male instructor?

Loneliness epidemic?

I don't know, but.

Because when I think of our job, it is very isolated.

We sit in the passenger seat.

We have the driver or the learner in the driver's seat.

And yes, there's someone there.

But we're in the position of power.

You know, we're in the position of authority.

We're looking after them.

They're not looking after us.

So throughout that entire day, we're providing support.

We're not being supported.

And there's very little there in the, in the way of community.

Now, there are other options for community and stuff like that, but In a standard day, that's what we have is alone all day.

And obviously if you've got a family to go home to, whatever, that's a different thing.

So I, I see instructors as if.

If there is a male wellness epidemic and you are a male instructor, I could envisage that making it worse.

So I just wanted to throw that context in there.

But is there a male oneness epidemic?

Certainly loneliness has been more and more of a problem over the last 20 years.

The amount of close friends that people would say they've got has got smaller and smaller and smaller.

Very close friends that they would trust with anything.

There was a time 20 years ago where I think the number would be maybe three or four.

These are my really close friends I could trust with anything.

More and more people are saying zero.

Now, when you ask them how many so close that you would trust them with your life.

I don't.

Nobody I know people, but nobody that I know so well that I would rely on them if I was in any serious trouble.

So many people are saying zero.

And yes, it is true to say that more men will say that than women because of the culture that we've got.

Where women are in our culture, encouraged to have sleepovers and have great friends and catch up for Prosecco or coffee.

Men, not so much.

It's within our culture to go and have a pint maybe, or maybe catch up at some point, but not in quite the same way that women do.

So it's strong to say that there is a loneliness epidemic within.

Within male culture, but the facts are there that it's, it's.

It's a strong word, but it's true.

So yes, knowing about it is.

Is how we change it.

Knowing that if we're in a position where we are even less likely than somebody else to have some sort of contact during the day, we've got to compensate for that.

There's a phrase I use quite often when this pops up in my mind, which is if you're alone and you are unhappy, you might not like the company that you're in.

And if there's anything about you that you don't like, see if we can work on that before.

We only then try and rebuild connections with old friends or make new connections with new ones.

Yes, do that as well.

Don't only don't sit there and wait until you've got a good relationship with yourself before you meet anybody new, but make sure you work on you as well.

Absolutely.

Learn to know you and then you know what to show to Others.

Because then you can turn up as you.

You have someone that you can turn to and ask for help and that kind of thing.

Yes.

Yeah.

Every therapist either should or does.

Because it's part of our job.

We live in a.

The type of role that we've got as therapists.

And the confidentiality that comes from being a therapist means that we cannot discuss anything that goes on in our work with anybody else other than our supervisor, which we explain to everybody, new clients on their very first intake day, on their very first session.

We say what you.

What we talk about in here is nobody else's business but yours.

But there are exceptions.

And that would be with our supervisor.

But that would be only about the clinical side of what we do.

It wouldn't be about the us side of what we do.

So we need somewhere where we can offload how we.

Our feelings.

We wouldn't do that with our supervisor.

Supervisor would go, whoa, maybe that's something you need to talk about with your therapist, Richard.

I go, oh, she retired, God damn it, and abandoned me, just like everybody does.

Well, have you found another one yet?

It's on my list of things to do and it is on my list of things to do.

Actually.

Actually, I do have another therapist that I do talk to and meet up with other therapists quite regularly to.

To feel that I fit in and to make sure that I've.

I've got my friends with similar personality types or.

Or even if.

Even if we are very different, they accept me for who I am.

Every weird bit of neurodivergence that goes on in me and them.

Birds of a feather flock together, folks.

But, yeah, it is important that we go.

We have somewhere where we can offload and we can.

Even if we can't talk about what we.

We can't talk about our job and what might be upsetting us, we could talk about how we feeling.

We can do that.

Yes.

It's great being able to have someone that you can turn to.

And it's something that, again, I used to.

Doing the thing as I used to consider myself a man, you know, it's not manly to go and do this stuff, but there was a time this year when I reached out to a couple of people who I'm like, I'm actually struggling now with, you know, X, Y, and Z. I'm going to ask for help.

And it's such a nice feeling to be able to do that.

You know, it's almost like a weight off the shoulders to know, oh, I can ask for help.

Forget the Actual asking to be able to that.

And one of the things that the brought it home for me was someone asked me for help in quite a. I won't go into the details, but quite a unique way.

And it was like this person felt like they could ask me.

I feel so good about that.

Selfishly feel good about that.

Yeah.

I can make someone else feel good by asking them for help as well.

That's exactly what I was going to say.

And I'd say this to clients, if anybody's struggling with asking for help with anything, how would you feel if one of your friends contacted you and asked for help?

Oh, I'd be honoured.

Yeah.

Well, you're preventing them from feeling that by not asking them.

Oh, okay.

But self esteem can play a part that you might think, oh, yeah, but they don't really like me, so let's work on that.

Because it might be that you don't really like you.

Then you work on that and then they realize that actually it's okay to ask.

I do like using myself as an example on these podcasts and I joked about it being a session for me, but I use it myself as the example because I feel like there's a lot of people listen to this for a lot of men listen to this, that I can look like I've got it all sussed, you know, because I'm out doing X, Y and Z publicly can, can look at me like, oh, Terry's got it.

So it's like, no, I'm a wreck at times.

And I think that to share this stuff can be, can be quite useful.

And you know, I want to come back to that stereotype for a second because if we look at that stereotype of a driving instructor, a male driving unhealthy, divorced, mid-40s alone, that kind of thing, and then we've got the loneliness aspect that we just talk about.

So I, I went through a little bit of this.

If someone's feeling that loneliness now, and I suppose in particular when they're struggling with it in maybe the examples just given, how do we get out of that?

Well, we have to acknowledge how we're feeling and I guess not be frightened of it because it's, it's anxiety provoking.

If you're feeling lonely, then there's practical things to do.

There are, there's organizations you can go to.

Whether that's.

Well, it depends what the outcome is.

Make sure it's something that matches your values.

I'm a big fan of amateur dramatics.

Me the center of attention.

Yes.

So yeah, I'll go on stage and I'll prance about and I'll have a lot of fun.

But I really enjoy the gaps in between plays where we're just reading other plays.

We're just sitting around a table, just reading scripts, having a laugh, talking about films that we've seen, talking about other plays that we've seen.

So for me, my amateur dramatics droop on a Wednesday is what prevents my loneliness.

It really does.

And you can Google groups to help with my loneliness.

And there's gonna be a thousand different suggestions, but they all revolve around the same thing, which is taking action.

You've gotta actually contact them and go.

And that means a famous phrase, being able to feel the fear and do it anyway.

It means acknowledging that this is scary to you because it's new and new things are scary.

That's part of being human.

That doesn't mean that you're weak, doesn't mean that you're broken, because you have adrenal glands that work and a brain that does produce cortisol.

It's supposed to.

What kind of species didn't?

Well, I'll tell you one that didn't.

The bloody dodo.

Well, how did that work out for it?

So we're supposed to feel anxious about things that are different and unpredictable.

If we don't know what's coming around the corner, our body gives us a squirt of adrenaline that makes us feel a little bit sick, pushes our heart rate through the roof.

That's what it is to be human.

And until we acknowledge that about ourselves, that, oh, yeah, I am human.

I'm not a dodo bird that just is just curious and interested and let's get hit over the head by a lighthouse keeper and put in a bag.

We're humans and we feel anxious, we feel the fear, but we do have to be able to embrace it to a degree because we're making some changes in our life.

Take a few deep breaths and send the email.

Make the phone call turn up at the event or whatever it is.

We have to be able to be okay with not feeling completely calm all the time.

You're aware of Andy's man club?

That rings a bell.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I've never actually used it, but I've looked into a little bit, and I think they've tend to run up the law Quantum me tends to run on Monday evenings.

Just a place where they can get together.

They've got this, I think they call it a sweeper, where someone goes outside just before the Event and they go and look for the men sat in the cars that are getting out the cars and go and talk to them because it's like, come on, in you come.

I love that.

Yeah, I think that's great because I reckon there's a lot of blokes that turn up on there, they're too scared to go in and they just need that little bit of encouragement.

So yeah, I don't know.

I love the idea of the sweet off around this man club.

That's brilliant.

Yeah.

Now you want to throw this in and I'm going to attempt this word and I'm, I'm going to start talking now to, to, to delay saying the word when I butcher it.

But I listened to.

I'm a member of your Patreon, I've been for a little while and it's a brilliant membership by the way.

Anyone listening, go and check it out.

But don't know if it was a Patreon episode actually or public one.

But he did an episode on.

Oh God, I'm gonna do it.

Phenomena.

Oh no, I did it right before Phenomen.

Oh my word.

Phenomenology.

Phenomenology.

There we go.

Right, okay, cool.

That's it.

Yeah.

And I think I've obviously heard of the concept before, but I found that your description, fantastic and I think it tied into a bit what we're talking about today.

So do you want to just explain this to us a little bit?

Yeah, well, phenomenology is the idea that everybody's got their own unique experience of how they see the world.

I am five foot five and a half on a good day in my shoes, maybe five six actually.

But I.

No, I'm five five and a half.

I've been adding half an inch on and before I do it.

But if I keep doing that, I'll be five six and a half again like I thought I was when I was 19.

Then I'll be five seven, which is pretty much five eight, isn't it really?

And I exaggerated my height and then truly, truly believed I was 5 foot 8.

But I'm really not because we, if we say something enough times, we believe it.

Terry.

So if I wanted to see over a six foot fence, then I'm going to need a very specific type of step to help me see over that six foot fence.

But if you give that step to somebody who's only 4 foot 6, they still can't see over that fence.

Everybody's going to need something different.

Everybody sees their world in a different way.

Not Just because they're a foot shorter than average, but because they've had a different life, a man is going to have a completely different view of the world to a woman.

A woman is going to have a completely different view of the world if she's white than if she would if she was black.

Everybody's got their own very unique experience of how they see the world based on their culture, based on their upbringing.

And you don't know what other people can see.

You don't know how other people are experiencing their world.

If somebody has had a lot of difficult experiences in childhood and they were forgotten by their parents a lot because their parents had mental health issues themselves, maybe, and so they were absent, and even if they were there, they weren't really there.

They were drunk or they were asleep, they weren't really there, or they were just zoned out, then that's gonna potentially nudge somebody in a particular direction.

That means that 25 years later, when one of their friends is looking at their phone while you're talking to them and just going, yeah, yeah, I am listening.

It's gonna make one person feel completely differently to somebody who maybe had a different experience growing up.

Because one person can be very sensitive to rejection because of that childhood experience.

And if you don't make eye contact with them, if you don't you're not fully on board with everything that they say, then they could easily create what we call dichotomous thinking.

Black or white thinking, all or nothing thinking, you're either with me or against me.

And if you're not with me because you were looking at your phone, you must be 100% against me.

It's not true, but that's their view of their world.

And you don't know what's going on for other people.

You really don't.

And you don't know what's going on for you.

And to realize, oh, I wonder if this is just my private phenomenological view of the world.

And actually I can challenge the meaning behind my friend who just glanced over their shoulder to look at the exit.

Does it mean that they want to leave me and this conversation?

They don't really want to sit in this.

This wine bar or this pub with me.

They'd rather be outside.

Or does it mean something else?

Because it could mean a thousand things.

And these.

These things are worth challenging.

They really are.

Because everybody's got their own unique way of experiencing the world.

I think we see that a lot online, don't we?

You know, someone, again, if I Use my industry as an example.

I'm learning to become an instructor and I'm struggling with this.

And I'll see a lot of people come along.

Oh, well, this is easy.

Just do this, just do this.

It's like.

But you're not seeing what they're seeing.

Just because you find the thing easy doesn't mean they find the thing easy.

And yeah, do you know what?

I'm going to tell this story because you mentioned the height thing.

So I'm 511 and I was on the dating apps recently and I put on her.

That was 5 11.

And I got why.

Context.

But quite a few people messaging me because they'd seen I was 5 11.

Because apparently there's a thing where men, if they're 510 or as you said, 5 9, then I'm 510 and that's close to 6 foot.

So I'll just say I'm 6 foot and I've saw quite a few people in the bio, whatever.

But why are no men 5 11?

So people used to message me because they'd seen I were 511 and.

But my logic of it was always that if you can set your filters so that you don't want to see anyone that's under 6 foot, so if a woman is saying, I don't want to see anyone under 6 foot, then I don't want to date that woman because a, I'm under 6 foot and B, if that's what she's judging me on, that's not really what I've been judged on.

So just that element of honesty I thought worked really well.

But phenomenology, yeah, I'm happy with that.

But yeah, I think that's something we need to, as people and as driving instructors, we need to be aware of just accepting that people have different worldviews.

Yeah.

Especially the learners.

I mean, when you're training to be an instructor, you are, I'm sure, taught a little bit about the fact that everybody's got different learning styles and some people are going to be a bit more panicky and might need to be spoken to in a different way.

There could be some learners where you can genuinely say, hey, up, dickhead.

Well, no, you shouldn't do that.

Really.

Well, it's better maybe, maybe not though.

But there's going to be some that would really be very stressed out at the idea of a man.

That's enough.

That really is enough to stress out some people.

Men and women.

Men and women.

Men would be stressed about being told what to do by another man because it makes them feel less like a man.

And of course learning something or teaching something shouldn't be about telling people what to do.

It's, that's not how we learn.

And I'm hoping that any of the instructors listening to this, they explain how to do things and they teach how to do things.

They don't tell.

I guess it's context dependent again, isn't it?

Oh, you, you bang on Ray and, and it's refreshing to hear.

And the, the annoying thing is that shouldn't be annoying because everyone's got their own worldview is that there will be people listen to this that disagree with that.

But either way that's, that's a different episode for a different day, I feel.

But there is one thing I want to touch on specifically around driving instructors, because at the minute our industry in terms of the driving test, both for instructors and trainee driving instructors, is in a complete state.

It's in a complete state of farce.

There are some parts of the country where you simply cannot get a driving test.

There are others where you can book one for four or five months time if you're lucky at the best.

There are learners that are currently buying tests on the black market.

So there are people like bulk buying tests somehow and selling them on sort of 250 quid a pop in some places there are trainee instructors that when you become a training instructor, you get two years to do all your training and take your tests.

Cannot get a test within that two years and then they have to go and restart the whole thing again and pay for all the stuff again.

And the DVSA are still blaming Covid for this, which was the initial fault, but that was quite a while ago now.

Five years ago now.

Yes.

And there's all kinds of shenanigans going on that I will give you all the details for.

But you can imagine for instructors this can be quite stressful.

Now there are some instructors that don't feel the stress as much and manage it quite well and whatnot, but there are some that really kind of take that personally, whether it's a learner that they want to help get a test, but they've now got to wait four months or they can't book a test.

And how do I help?

Whether it's the training instructors, the examples that I gave there.

So with that stress, how can we manage that better?

Because we can't change the situation.

The situation is currently being managed by the dvsa.

There's very little we can do about that.

So how can we best manage ourselves so we can manage that situation better.

It starts with the awareness, the awareness of where the problem is.

Because if you feel that the problem is with you, because as a man, you, you might feel as if it's up to me to make sure that this learner is in a position to take the test and pass it, then you're going to feel that extra weight of responsibility.

We might feel disappointed, we might feel sad for that learner.

We shouldn't feel guilty.

And if you feel guilty because you feel you have let them down because they can't take their test yet, then that needs challenging, that absolutely needs looking at and going, I'm carrying a feeling, but it belongs somewhere else.

This isn't about me, it's about the system.

And it's.

And I'm from.

If I was, if I was running the system, if I was making those decisions, then yes, I probably would feel some responsibility, but I'm not.

Some things are outside of my control and that's where I think a lot of attention needs to be put.

What can I control and what can't I control?

Because the things that you can control shouldn't really be feeling much about those things because we can control them.

The things you can't control, we shouldn't really be thinking and feeling too much about those things either, because you can't control them.

And I know it takes a lot of practice for that to feel safe, to be able to let that go.

But practice makes perfect and you can't do that unless you practice.

I think you'll agree with this.

The best place, the best way to start that is by being honest about that situation with the learner in the beginning.

And that can even become, before they get in the car, you know, it's like this is the situation just to make you aware because it's going to be different for different parts of the country.

So, you know, whatever your situation is, making the learner aware of that, because I would imagine as well, by doing that you are then they subconsciously alleviate in some of the guilt you might feel because you have told them, this is the situation.

I can't do anything out of this.

This is a situation we're in.

You almost telling yourself on them, this isn't my fault.

Absolutely.

A lot of, A lot of important things that go on in life, not just in every profession really to a degree, is boundaries, knowing where you stop and they start and, and the responsibilities that come from all of these different things.

Where does it stop with me?

Well, it's here it's right here, really close.

Actually, all of that that's out there as he gesticulates to the world is.

Is not me.

I haven't done any of that.

And if we can set that up right at the start, then no one gets upset.

It's why if, in my world, if you're a therapist and you provide, say, 50 minute sessions, as a lot of therapists do, and they have a 10 minutes where they type up notes and take payment and so on, if the therapy sessions are 50 minutes, you stick to those 50 minutes.

You don't look at your watch and think, well, actually, I've not got a client immediately afterwards, I'll give this client an extra 20 minutes.

No, because when you can't do that for them every single week, they're going to feel let down, they're going to feel rejected.

Oh, he doesn't care for me after all.

He isn't interested in me after all.

So we have to set boundaries because it helps them, but also it helps you.

And I think if all instructors can set boundaries, whether it's to do with where you pick them up, how many people are going to be in the car.

Remember when I first learned to drive back in the 90s, I remember asking my instructor if I could get dropped off somewhere else because I've got somewhere to be.

Okay.

Actually, I've got to go to.

I was a volunteer in a hospital at the time.

I was only 17, 18.

Oh, can we, can you drop me off at the hospital?

Well, I've got.

I've got another learner.

No, I've got to drop you off.

I've got to go and collect them.

They're not going to.

I'm not going to have them on a different route, taking them somewhere else.

No, we're going to go to this learner's house and they're going to drive you home because they live five minutes around the corner from you.

All right, Jeff, that's fair.

See, that, I think, is actually, it's a really good example as well, because I think that for me, I have no problem with anyone asking me, because I'll tell them, if you want dropping off somewhere else, let me know.

And if I can, I will.

And a lot of the time I can't because, you know, like you said, I might be somewhere else afterwards.

I might just want to go home or I just might not want to, and that's fine.

But I have no problem with them asking me as long as they have no problem with me saying no, you know, and I do a similar thing with my text.

I say, you can text me whatever time you want.

My phone is on silent.

I will not hear it.

Do not be offended if you text me at 2 in the morning.

I reply at 6 in the morning.

You have to accept that.

And I think that they're my boundaries that I've set, and I think that because I've set them, I'm clear with them.

All the students respect them.

You know, some of them say, no, don't tell me because my phone's not on silent.

Okay, cool.

It's in my notes.

I'm gonna text you after this time or whatever.

So, yeah, I think setting them boundaries is a big thing because the.

The boundaries will be unique for the individual, won't they?

Yeah, yeah.

Every instructor's got their own boundaries.

Every learner's got their own boundaries.

But people like to push back.

And as.

As you've alluded to, the DVSA is.

Got some problems at the minute, and there's going to be people that, well, come on, there must be something you can do to get me a test.

There must be some.

Something you can do.

Do you know anybody else?

If you want to go and find somebody else, come find somebody else.

Is there anything else you'd like to touch on today on.

On this International Men's Day special?

One thing I'd say to everybody, whether they're driving instructors or not, is never wait for things to get bad before you speak up.

Nip things in the bud.

Whether you're feeling uncomfortable just at the beginning of something, feeling a little bit stressed, or you're feeling burnt out, Don't.

Don't wait until you can't get out of bed.

Speak up early.

You are allowed to take care of yourself, even in a job that asks you to take care of other people.

Like it.

I've got a lump at the minute, which I got checked, and they're like, oh, yeah, it's nothing.

But if I hadn't have got it checked early, I would be worrying about it now.

And then I'll be putting off going because I'd be like, oh, this might be serious now.

So.

Yeah, good point.

I like it.

Do you want to take a moment to remind people where they can find you if they want more?

Richard Nichols.

Goodness.

Oh, absolutely.

It's called 15 Minutes to Happiness.

And it's all the different things you can do in 15 minutes to boost your mental health.

Can look, look me up on Amazon or anywhere else, preferably somewhere else.

Sorry, Amazon, they don't pay tax.

I'm sure they do somewhere, just not here.

So you can find me there.

I mean, just Google.

Richard Nichols, you listen to my podcast.

It's splattered all over the Internet, obviously.

Find me on Patreon as well, where I make weekly episodes and hypnotherapy tracks for everybody to listen to.

That's a lovely little supporting place.

We do a lot with my Patreon page, donating money to charity, helping people who can't afford therapy get therapy as well.

And also it means I could take a Friday off once a week and make podcast content, which is quite nice.

So, yeah, find me on Patreon, patreon.com forward/richardnichols.

Get you get your fix there.

I'd recommend all three of those things.

The book, the podcast and the Patreon.

I loved your book.

I need to go back.

It's one of the free.

So I read unlistened and it's one of the three books that I've ever listened to and read.

Very rare do I do both.

There was yours, there was Dan Meredith's how to be Fucking awesome.

And there was Jen, sincerely spiritual for me, which was, you are a badass.

So that was my little trio of books that I both read and listened to.

Nice, but no.

All links to that will be in the show notes.

All that's left for me to say is big thank you for joining me today.

It's been a pleasure.

It is indeed.

Thank you, Terry.

You take care.

A big thank you to Richard for joining me today.

Really enjoyed that chat.

And if you're not already, make sure you follow in the instructor podcast WhatsApp channel, because when we have a very special prize from Richard coming up on there soon.

But I want to thank you guys as well.

Always appreciate you guys listen, especially those of you listen all the way to the end.

And if there's one thing I'd want you to take from this episode, it's this.

You don't have to carry everything on your own.

You know, whether it's the job, the pressure, the expectations, all the stuff you never say out loud.

You're allowed to talk, you're allowed to feel it, and you're allowed to look after yourself.

It's not weakness, it's being human.

And if more of us in this industry recognize that, we'd all be better for it.

So if you've enjoyed this conversation, the honesty, the depth, the real side of it.

You'll get even more from Inside the Instructor Premium.

See, the public podcast is great, but it's just the surface.

Because Inside Premium, you get the full archive.

That's every expert session, every deep dive, every unfiltered conversation.

You get new content all the time.

So you get video, audio, written pieces and workbooks that you can use at the end of the episodes.

You get perspectives that you won't find anywhere else in this industry from people doing genuinely interesting work, not just the usual recycled advice, one on one.

And you also get the space to actually grow as an instructor, as a business owner, and as a human being.

So if you're serious about improving, not just ticking boxes, but genuinely leveling up, this is where the real value is.

So if you want to keep learning, keep charging yourself, and be part of something actually moves you forward, come join us.

Head over to patreon.com the instructor or just tap the link in the episode description.

And whatever you do next, look after yourself.

Take something away from today into the week ahead.

For now, let's just keep raising standards.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook, talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.