Transcripts
Hey everyone.
Speaker:And welcome back to another
Speaker:episode of demand gen chat.
Speaker:I'm your host Kaylee Edmondson, And
Speaker:today we are joined with Craig Handy,
Speaker:who has a very long title, that is the
Speaker:head of Post-Sales/Evolution/Robots,
Speaker:over at Shopify.
Speaker:So thanks for joining us.
Speaker:I'm glad to be here.
Speaker:Thanks for having me.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:So I feel like you have to
Speaker:start with your title and
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:...kind of set the stage.
Speaker:for How thing are positioned or org'd
Speaker:over at Shopify and kind of what
Speaker:your layer of ownership oversees.
Speaker:So, so yeah, so Shopify, um, went
Speaker:through a reorganization in I would
Speaker:say December of 2020, and the intention
Speaker:of this was, you know, we had a bunch
Speaker:of different products, a bunch of
Speaker:different approaches to go about, uh,
Speaker:selling it and then kind of each product
Speaker:had their own go-to-market teams.
Speaker:And their, their own full functions.
Speaker:and The thought was, was that that's not
Speaker:serving our merchants, our customers in
Speaker:the best way that we could, because it
Speaker:was very, it was it was disjointed in
Speaker:the way that we interacted with that.
Speaker:So the decision was made to
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...let's rethink this altogether in a
Speaker:way that actually fits better than we
Speaker:can, you know, put crafts together,
Speaker:put, uh, you know, solutions together
Speaker:and put the way we communicate better.
Speaker:So what that.
Speaker:ended up Forming was what we call
Speaker:a global [inaudible 00:01:17]
Speaker:tech and ops, uh, division.
Speaker:And it's the focus that is all
Speaker:the technology, all the tooling,
Speaker:many of the processes and how we
Speaker:align that with the people with
Speaker:data to achieve the objectives.
Speaker:And I kind of see that as you know,
Speaker:Shopify has this thing of being kind
Speaker:of merchant-obsessed, and we can talk
Speaker:over that, but that's, they, they,
Speaker:we live by that and I love that.
Speaker:But, uh, one of the things too was, well,
Speaker:how do we be merchant-obsessed and how do
Speaker:we help the team be merchant-obsessed?"
Speaker:Well, that was, we need to provide
Speaker:every single person that interacts
Speaker:with the merchants or systems that
Speaker:the merchants interact with, to
Speaker:community with us has to be smooth.
Speaker:has to be clean.
Speaker:so that's really what the team
Speaker:that that my team focuses on
Speaker:is, is, is building that out.
Speaker:When we first did this, we formed
Speaker:uh, two groups, foundations,
Speaker:and evolutions foundation.
Speaker:was supposed to be like the main
Speaker:roadmap of work we were going to do the
Speaker:day-to-day kind of medium-term focus.
Speaker:And I had the evolutions team and this
Speaker:was focused on either like immediate
Speaker:short-term, as in we need something it's
Speaker:going to take a couple months to do,
Speaker:but like we still need it right now.
Speaker:So what crazy thing can we come up to,
Speaker:to, to just bridge that gap overnight?
Speaker:But the main part was we were
Speaker:looking at extreme long-term.
Speaker:We were trying to see one,
Speaker:two, three, four years.
Speaker:out.
Speaker:Were we doing things that were
Speaker:going to be like, we don't, I
Speaker:don't want to be an early adopter.
Speaker:I want to be an innovator.
Speaker:I don't wanna wait for technology to
Speaker:[inaudible 00:02:35], I want to go out
Speaker:to businesses, out to companies, work
Speaker:with them to, to craft better solutions
Speaker:and, we can give kind of the same way
Speaker:we, you know, [inaudible 00:02:43]
Speaker:is arming the rebels well, why not?
Speaker:Let's arm the rebels in the
Speaker:rev tech space and, and kind
Speaker:of go out there and get that.
Speaker:So that was the passion.
Speaker:Um, but we changed a little bit again
Speaker:recently and we changed because.
Speaker:Uh, it was, it was very separate.
Speaker:It was a lot to kind of put our
Speaker:two different groups, especially
Speaker:in the groups we're building.
Speaker:So we then now broke into a
Speaker:more traditional system, which
Speaker:is pre-sales and post-sales.
Speaker:So we're still running the evolutions.
Speaker:I'm still doing that as, a group, but now
Speaker:we're responsible for, post-sale rev tech.
Speaker:which is An awesome space now where
Speaker:we watched that bridge between,
Speaker:uh, I think someone referred
Speaker:to it as cross-sell/up-sell...
Speaker:I like to call it coverage, but it's
Speaker:like, how do we take the merchants
Speaker:that we've acquired and connect them
Speaker:with the next best thing for them to
Speaker:advance through business and invest
Speaker:in their business and, and grow.
Speaker:So, That's, uh, that's how
Speaker:we get that 100-year company
Speaker:and, and what we focused on.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You said so many interesting things just
Speaker:in your definition of what you're owning
Speaker:or what your area of responsibility is.
Speaker:But one of the things I think that
Speaker:stands out most is, Looking not, only six
Speaker:months or a year ahead, but four years
Speaker:down the road at such a massive company.
Speaker:What are some of the things that go
Speaker:into your day-to-day, or even your
Speaker:quarterly planning where you're
Speaker:thinking okay, what does 2025 look like?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:so, so it's, it's funny.
Speaker:because it's like, you know, you're
Speaker:trying to predict the future in a way,
Speaker:but ultimately, uh, so someone early on
Speaker:in my career was was telling me about
Speaker:You know, open as many doors as you can.
Speaker:Not because you need to go through
Speaker:every single one of them, but open every
Speaker:door and kind of see what's out there.
Speaker:So for us, what I tell my team is,
Speaker:you know, take every phone call.
Speaker:Um, which, I mean, I, maybe I shouldn't
Speaker:say that out in a in a public space,
Speaker:but you know, if someone's pitching
Speaker:a software, like go and go and see
Speaker:it, see, see why they're doing there.
Speaker:Why do they exist?
Speaker:Why do they feel that there's a need
Speaker:for this, What other companies are are
Speaker:engaging in, in this type of thing?
Speaker:Now, In the Shopify perspective,
Speaker:though, for us planning for our future,
Speaker:you know, we have pretty solid goals
Speaker:leading up to the next few years,
Speaker:and then Shopify's been very good at
Speaker:kind of setting those really strong
Speaker:north stars and lofty objectives.
Speaker:So we kind of aligned where the fact
Speaker:is, we realized to hit those objectives.
Speaker:Well, we need more people
Speaker:hit those objectives.
Speaker:We need to identify more
Speaker:opportunities to hit those objectives.
Speaker:We need.
Speaker:to, You know, make the merchant base
Speaker:that we have feel like Shopify is,
Speaker:is there for them, have their back.
Speaker:And so when I look at that,
Speaker:I I try and find ways to get
Speaker:us closer to the merchants.
Speaker:I try and find ways for us to
Speaker:speed up or remove redundancies.
Speaker:I try and find ways to say also is it the
Speaker:way that humans are choosing to interact.
Speaker:Is that evolving?
Speaker:Is that changing?
Speaker:So.
Speaker:of course, Global pandemic changes the
Speaker:way that some people want to interact.
Speaker:And then we look at well, for coming out
Speaker:of this, uh, and, and when we come out
Speaker:of this, what is that going to change?
Speaker:Are we going to have a roaring 20s where
Speaker:people want those in-person events,
Speaker:and and would actually send you know,
Speaker:more of those human interactions?
Speaker:or have we, have we shifted
Speaker:to, you know, kind of radical
Speaker:digitization of how we interact?
Speaker:So they're kind of thinking about that.
Speaker:So, but, but a lot of it, you
Speaker:know, we, we never lose sight of.
Speaker:The merchant or in this case, from
Speaker:my regard, is the, is the human?
Speaker:Because without them, like, I
Speaker:mean, what are we doing, Right.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:So that's always, how do the humans
Speaker:feel and act and change in different
Speaker:and how does society change?
Speaker:And we just reflect the
Speaker:technology to, to fit.
Speaker:that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, and I think that's interesting too.
Speaker:And even your concept around leaving, um,
Speaker:Leaving doors open or at least opening
Speaker:them in the first place is interesting
Speaker:because it's like, especially for us right
Speaker:now from a demand gen standpoint, um, we
Speaker:are also trying to predict the market.
Speaker:And this is also my first time
Speaker:in my career where I'm trying
Speaker:to predict the market against.
Speaker:you know, the pandemic, I uh, never
Speaker:been up against anything like this.
Speaker:And so we're even just trying to make
Speaker:decisions around in-person events,
Speaker:um, and things of that nature.
Speaker:And it's like, do you know, how
Speaker:do you plan for both outcomes?
Speaker:And so this is even, you know, our first
Speaker:scenario where we as a team are trying to
Speaker:come together to have a true formalized
Speaker:plan, a and a plan B in conjunction.
Speaker:so that, You know, if the, you know,
Speaker:things changed very quickly or whatever.
Speaker:We would have a good backup plan in place.
Speaker:I think people always talk about
Speaker:it, but executing two plans at once
Speaker:that are polar opposite from one
Speaker:another is quite different from at
Speaker:least the way that in startup world,
Speaker:like we are used to operating.
Speaker:So, um, it's an interesting
Speaker:muscle to flex and, um,
Speaker:interesting to flex it four years.
Speaker:in advance, too.
Speaker:indeed.
Speaker:indeed.
Speaker:No, it is.
Speaker:And actually like, on that route, too,
Speaker:about the events, I I joke around, Like,
Speaker:one of my business partners, he, he, uh,
Speaker:he and I could be complete polar opposites
Speaker:in that same regard where I'm kind of
Speaker:like, "No, I don't really want to travel.
Speaker:anywhere right now, like, actually,
Speaker:I'm totally cool with virtual
Speaker:events, He's, like, lick the
Speaker:floor of the airport comfortable.
Speaker:And so I'm kind of like, all right,
Speaker:you have a very different, [Laughing]
Speaker:but in the case for him, it's, so
Speaker:he's itching to go to in-person events
Speaker:immediate, he wants to get there.
Speaker:And so, In that essence is both
Speaker:of us are [inaudible 00:07:40].
Speaker:Both of us are engaged in in that market.
Speaker:So you kind of have to say like, are
Speaker:you gonna do two things so-so, or
Speaker:are you gonna do things really well?
Speaker:But does that exclude those communities?
Speaker:And I know Chili Piper's obviously huge
Speaker:on community building, which is again,
Speaker:one of the reasons I love you guys, but
Speaker:that scenario is, is you now have people.
Speaker:that are Going to go there.
Speaker:that can create that experience
Speaker:virtually for the ones that
Speaker:are not ready to do that?
Speaker:So it's a tough, uh, a tough job.
Speaker:So
Speaker:Yeah, yeah,
Speaker:I don't envy you on that one.
Speaker:[Laughing] Yeah, it's uh, It's tough.
Speaker:But it's also really exciting.
Speaker:I think it's like a huge challenge and at,
Speaker:not just us, but obviously every marketer.
Speaker:um, All around the globe right now
Speaker:is kind of facing the same thing,
Speaker:which I think is also very unique.
Speaker:'cause normally we, aren't all facing a
Speaker:very similar challenge at the same time.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:and so it's very interesting to
Speaker:see how companies are reacting.
Speaker:And I think for us, yeah, inclusion,
Speaker:um, because even us as a company, right.
Speaker:Um, we're trying to plan a
Speaker:company, uh, offsite right now.
Speaker:We normally do that once a year.
Speaker:Obviously last year we
Speaker:did not get together.
Speaker:That was the first time in chili Pepper's
Speaker:existence that we didn't get together.
Speaker:Um, so we were trying to do
Speaker:something for this October and.
Speaker:It's like, "Oh, okay, well now
Speaker:the Delta variant is a thing.
Speaker:Things are kind of changing.
Speaker:We're trying to gauge the perception
Speaker:internally of like how people feel
Speaker:and their comfortability level.
Speaker:I don't know that we have
Speaker:anybody that's quite ready to
Speaker:lick the floor at the airport.
Speaker:However, we do have a lot of
Speaker:differing comfort levels internally.
Speaker:And so we're trying to, um, you
Speaker:know, Provide good experiences for
Speaker:even ourselves and then trying to
Speaker:figure out ways that we can also
Speaker:emote that in our go-to-market
Speaker:activities, um, to the public as well.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:So I think it's just super
Speaker:interesting and, you know,
Speaker:we're still figuring it out.
Speaker:So when we do we'll share
Speaker:it with everybody, but, um,
Speaker:yeah, it's super interesting.
Speaker:And I, yeah, especially at scale, right.
Speaker:Somebody that's working for a
Speaker:company as large as Shopify.
Speaker:It's just interesting to
Speaker:hear how you guys are kind of
Speaker:adapting that mentality as well.
Speaker:Um, So let's talk about culture
Speaker:for a second at a company.
Speaker:Like I don't even understand how large
Speaker:is Shopify today, And how large was
Speaker:it, I guess when you joined, like, what
Speaker:does [inaudible 00:09:38] look like?
Speaker:I, I...
Speaker:Oh, geez, I I don't even know
Speaker:what, what I'm allowed to say or
Speaker:not, but it, but it, let's get-
Speaker:Oh, skip over it if you don't.
Speaker:... let's say a lot.
Speaker:There's a lot of people there, so, um-
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:...yeah, it's, uh, it's doubled since
Speaker:I joined uh, and I joined in 2019
Speaker:and with that evolving door,
Speaker:how do you all maintain.
Speaker:This culture and this mindset
Speaker:of like merchant-obsessed at
Speaker:such magnitude and such scale.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:that, that, that is the question.
Speaker:Um, because you kind of wonder too,
Speaker:when you you, you bring people in from
Speaker:different perspectives, is that like,
Speaker:what is that due to the existing culture?
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...And I would say like from when I joined
Speaker:Shopify, it feels a little different.
Speaker:Um, and that granted it constantly will.
Speaker:But what I think is if if you take
Speaker:it in two different levels, like
Speaker:Shopify, has a, A bunch of rules and
Speaker:well, like, rules that are really
Speaker:related to our principles, let's say.
Speaker:Um, and like for example, one
Speaker:of them is don't be an asshole.
Speaker:Right, And one of those-
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:You should make a t-shirt.
Speaker:we'll inscribe on [inaudible 00:10:32].
Speaker:So you don't have a t-shirt.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Honestly, print a T-shirt.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:one of them's thrive on change.
Speaker:And so things like that at, at that
Speaker:base level, it's like, we're not telling
Speaker:you what the culture is or anything,
Speaker:but like, if you follow these basic
Speaker:concepts of what we're going to do,
Speaker:then, then the feel will stay the same.
Speaker:Despite the fact that people are
Speaker:coming from different perspectives.
Speaker:But as far as culture-building,
Speaker:I think Shopify has really
Speaker:started to, to grasp this.
Speaker:And it's something that
Speaker:when I build a team.
Speaker:I do the same thing is the obsession
Speaker:of, intersectionality with, you
Speaker:know, not only race, creed, beliefs,
Speaker:but also experience and skillset
Speaker:and, uh, network and location.
Speaker:And that create the scenario where,
Speaker:yeah, I, I might not think the same
Speaker:way as you, where I'm I may not even
Speaker:like you, to be honest the depending
Speaker:on, like we may just butt heads, but I
Speaker:love that because It's it's challenging
Speaker:ideas, it's challenging thoughts, it's
Speaker:giving a different spin on something.
Speaker:And so when you look at the career
Speaker:and the experience in the background
Speaker:of a lot of, of shop folk, as they,
Speaker:the company starts to grow is you get,
Speaker:It's like, whoa, you came from where
Speaker:and oh, oh, you used to do what And,
Speaker:And it's all comes back together.
Speaker:and, Uh, to, to create, I think, a very
Speaker:diverse and very widely-experienced
Speaker:team that, uh, you know, the, that
Speaker:is the culture in a sense, so.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:and as you're building.
Speaker:this, Um, this team and, you know,
Speaker:evolving your culture, but also like
Speaker:keeping your key principles like
Speaker:intact, obviously that plays well into
Speaker:this notion of part of your area of
Speaker:responsibility around innovation, right?
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Because you're d-, you know, hiring people
Speaker:from different walks of life, different
Speaker:backgrounds, different careers, skillsets,
Speaker:etc., And all, all that does is fill your
Speaker:playbook for innovation within all of
Speaker:these pockets that you're now covering.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Actually, that...
Speaker:so, During during the interview
Speaker:process, specifically with
Speaker:my team that that we run.
Speaker:Um, what I try and do is I create
Speaker:a, a feeling of mostly what you
Speaker:would expect, but, but what you
Speaker:could do and a gauge that I have,
Speaker:and, you know, not right or wrong.
Speaker:but There are some people that kind
Speaker:of get the open road or the vastness,
Speaker:and they get excited around that.
Speaker:And others are like, whoa, whoa.
Speaker:Like there's no, there's no structure.
Speaker:Like there's no, like, you know,
Speaker:when you ask, like, what what
Speaker:does it look like in three months?
Speaker:And I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker:You tell me, uh, you, you get a, "Oh,
Speaker:well I don't know if that's that's for
Speaker:me, but I love talking to people who
Speaker:come from banks because banks are very
Speaker:slow to innovate, very slow to change.
Speaker:And, you know, we interview people
Speaker:coming from banks and you talk about
Speaker:like what the role they're going to be
Speaker:in, they're like, I can change that.
Speaker:I can come.
Speaker:If I have an idea, we can,
Speaker:we can actually do something.
Speaker:And like, yeah.
Speaker:And they're like, okay, sign me up.
Speaker:Like "I want to be there.
Speaker:But that evolutions piece, that innovation
Speaker:piece is trying to bring people in
Speaker:with the case of, we trust them.
Speaker:We trust that, you you know, we
Speaker:didn't hire you to press a button.
Speaker:We hired you to bring your ideas, bring
Speaker:your motivation, bring your ambition and
Speaker:drive and go out and build something.
Speaker:And I see my job as removing anything
Speaker:that tries to get in your way so
Speaker:that you can go out and do that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:it's not, it's not...
Speaker:And, and that I think creates a
Speaker:high-performance team, that team
Speaker:where they feel emotionally invested,
Speaker:which is incredibly important for
Speaker:me to see that where it's like,
Speaker:you know, it's it's not your life.
Speaker:Maybe it's your job.
Speaker:some sometimes that identity blurs
Speaker:a little bit, but an emotionally
Speaker:invested employee is one that is.
Speaker:You know, excited to be there,
Speaker:excited to support their, their peers.
Speaker:They look amongst the group and
Speaker:they, they say not like, what can
Speaker:we do today as a team to, to do
Speaker:something new or something innovative?
Speaker:Not what's on my to-do list today.
Speaker:So, That's uh, that's what we're
Speaker:trying to build, and uh, I think we're
Speaker:doing, doing quite well so far with it
Speaker:Yeah, and I think, too, it definitely
Speaker:starts with the interview process.
Speaker:I love that you flip the script back
Speaker:on them and say like, I don't know.
Speaker:what does three months look like?
Speaker:Um, especially in startup world, I
Speaker:feel like that should be a very common,
Speaker:like response from the interviewer.
Speaker:Um, I feel like even myself,
Speaker:people always ask me like, what
Speaker:is, you know, 30, 60, 90 days out.
Speaker:and I'm like, 90 days out, like you're...
Speaker:This, this is a net new role.
Speaker:I, you tell.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, I've never been bold enough
Speaker:to say you tell me, but I think I'm
Speaker:gonna steal that and start using it.
Speaker:Um, because it's super true.
Speaker:It's like, well, look, nobody
Speaker:knew what I was going to be
Speaker:doing 90 days after I got hired.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:[ inaudible 00:14:44].
Speaker:Like they'd never had a
Speaker:director of demand gen before.
Speaker:So like every role that
Speaker:I've hired has been net new.
Speaker:And so it's like, you're paving your own.
Speaker:path.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Um, and I think it's also like a
Speaker:good like disqualification, right?
Speaker:If you like, see people's reaction on the
Speaker:interview and they are like, terrified
Speaker:of what you're saying, then, you know,
Speaker:this is like not the best fit for them.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Yeah, no, exactly, exactly that.
Speaker:And actually, also, one of the other
Speaker:questions I asked too, and this
Speaker:comes back to that emotional uh,
Speaker:connection is I ask, I ask a question.
Speaker:I'm told it's a hard question to
Speaker:ask in any way, no matter what,
Speaker:and it's, what is success for you?
Speaker:In one year, five years and 10 years.
Speaker:So what would have to be true at those
Speaker:landmarks to look back and say, "You
Speaker:know, I'm proud of myself, I'm successful.
Speaker:Uh, and some people can't answer
Speaker:that and that's that's fine, but the
Speaker:intention is, is that I wanna know.
Speaker:You know, is this and obviously,
Speaker:is this the right fit for you,
Speaker:but are you gonna come here?
Speaker:like, what is it that you're trying to do?
Speaker:And can we align those different things?
Speaker:Can we say, you know, that, that y-
Speaker:this is what you value Then, okay.
Speaker:This role, this company, this business
Speaker:is gonna help you to get to that point.
Speaker:Cause otherwise your one-year goal
Speaker:doesn't align with this role What,
Speaker:what are you, what are you doing?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like why, why are you here?
Speaker:Or the five-year goal?
Speaker:Like, what is...
Speaker:You know, what's going to happen here.
Speaker:How are we going to get you to that?
Speaker:So it's, it's very important to,
Speaker:I think, you know, have people
Speaker:start to think about that.
Speaker:And sometimes it's as simple as, you
Speaker:know, I want to make sure I'm doing
Speaker:something that I'm creating value."
Speaker:maybe a cop-out, but
Speaker:you know, you get that.
Speaker:A lot other people, are like
Speaker:I want to start a family.
Speaker:I'm like, awesome.
Speaker:this is a great place to do it.
Speaker:Um, some of them are, I want
Speaker:to start my own business.
Speaker:I love those ones too.
Speaker:Uh, but the best answer I got ever
Speaker:was, uh, someone we hired fairly
Speaker:recently and she said, uh, her
Speaker:ten-year was to be retired and I was.
Speaker:like, "Absol-" I'm like
Speaker:you're hired right now.
Speaker:Absolutely love this.
Speaker:It's just like, so this ambition is
Speaker:just, so your plan between now and
Speaker:the next 10 years to be sitting on
Speaker:enough of a enough of a base to be
Speaker:like, all right, I'm I'm checking in."
Speaker:She's not very old either.
Speaker:So, uh, that was the kind of spirit
Speaker:where I was like, I love that.
Speaker:I absolutely love that.
Speaker:I love that and that's super
Speaker:bold, um, and unexpected.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:I feel like it catches you
Speaker:on your toes a little bit.
Speaker:If somebody told me that
Speaker:I'd be like, oh, intriguing.
Speaker:Like, can you start.
Speaker:tomorrow?"
Speaker:Um, no, I love that.
Speaker:And so as you're hiring this team and
Speaker:understanding like how pivotal and
Speaker:important rev ops is for a company
Speaker:of such magnitude, what would your
Speaker:like, recommendation be for people
Speaker:who maybe aren't the size of Shopify,
Speaker:um, and don't have a rev ops team or
Speaker:think they need one, but are unsure.
Speaker:Like, what are some of those like
Speaker:critical paths to success for you?
Speaker:And when would you recommend to others
Speaker:that they build and stand up a formalized
Speaker:rev ops structure within their business?
Speaker:[ Laughing] Yeah.
Speaker:So, I love that you ask that, uh,
Speaker:and this is something I can talk
Speaker:for, uh, talk for days about, so
Speaker:I'll, I'll answer it um, in two ways.
Speaker:Um, the, the first one is that
Speaker:actually, I wrote, I was thinking
Speaker:about this and I wrote down something,
Speaker:it was like four points, um, where
Speaker:the first one is, is that when your
Speaker:go-to-market team starts to scale.
Speaker:And so that change is if, you
Speaker:know, if you have three, or four
Speaker:sales reps, maybe a couple BDRs or
Speaker:SDRs, you know, maybe a marketer.
Speaker:or whatnot, In a perspective
Speaker:where it's like, Hey, you know, we
Speaker:think we can, we can scale this.
Speaker:Or, or we know if we add give more
Speaker:sales reps, we're gonna, you know,
Speaker:do X," at that point is when you
Speaker:know, your growth is accelerating.
Speaker:Rev ops makes sense because eventually
Speaker:that's gonna get to a point where the
Speaker:site's unmanageable, but your scale will
Speaker:be more efficient with a rev ops function.
Speaker:that's, That's really walking.
Speaker:Uh, another one is where if folks are
Speaker:spending over 30% of their time doing
Speaker:rev ops and that's not their job,
Speaker:then my belief is that an employee
Speaker:can stretch at least like let's say an
Speaker:additional 30% of what they are expected
Speaker:to do, because they naturally wanna
Speaker:explore and grow and try new things.
Speaker:But at 30% someone who's, who's
Speaker:not supposed to be doing that.
Speaker:Then there's 60% of a job that
Speaker:will eventually be grown into.
Speaker:So that's one way to think about that.
Speaker:Um, Stagnation.
Speaker:I think we think about sometimes
Speaker:where, oh, you know, the business
Speaker:is not growing well, what do we do?
Speaker:We need to fix our product.
Speaker:Or maybe we need to, you know, try
Speaker:and hire sales reps or, or whatnot.
Speaker:I would say six-eight months of
Speaker:stagnation where, you know, growth
Speaker:is not happening quickly, or you're
Speaker:kind of doing the same thing over
Speaker:again, and it's not working out.
Speaker:or You're missing opportunities.
Speaker:You're missing leads.
Speaker:You're not getting it right to
Speaker:your, your base your customer.
Speaker:base, Throw rev ops into that.
Speaker:That's going to put it all on its head-
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:... and think about it differently.
Speaker:Um, and the last part is, obviously
Speaker:uh, upon a, a moment of, of
Speaker:grand [inaudible 00:19:06], or
Speaker:investment or funding rounds.
Speaker:That is obviously a great point
Speaker:because of course you're probably
Speaker:going to scale at that point.
Speaker:So that makes sense.
Speaker:Um, But I generally say ASAP
Speaker:is when you want rev ops, which
Speaker:leads into my second point,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:...which is actually a company
Speaker:that I started, uh, and it's
Speaker:called Jameson strategies.
Speaker:And the intention of that business
Speaker:is actually to give small businesses,
Speaker:medium businesses that have not invested
Speaker:in rev ops, or are not willing to you
Speaker:know fork out a full-time equivalent
Speaker:for that to get access to that as
Speaker:kind of like, you know, rev ops as
Speaker:a, as a SaaS product, let's say.
Speaker:Uh, and so that's something
Speaker:that we've found is.
Speaker:that The, the premise has been, you've
Speaker:actually acquired the technology.
Speaker:You can actually start to adopt the
Speaker:processes way before you have the people
Speaker:to, to run it and to facilitate it.
Speaker:That's normal.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...That's natural.
Speaker:That's of course going to happen.
Speaker:The difference though, is that if you
Speaker:can get access to that for an hour, a
Speaker:couple hours a week, then you can turn
Speaker:around and say, okay, well, I don't need
Speaker:that until I get to maybe 10 million.
Speaker:But what I can do I'm setting the
Speaker:right things in place, setting
Speaker:the right things in motion.
Speaker:To to grow effectively.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:and At least building a scalable
Speaker:foundation, because I feel like more
Speaker:often than not, um, people don't
Speaker:invest in rev ops marketing ops ops
Speaker:in general, um, until it's too late.
Speaker:And then you join somebody, you know,
Speaker:you bring somebody into this spiderweb,
Speaker:is almost always what I refer to it as
Speaker:where it is just like a tangled disaster.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...Right.
Speaker:Because it's been like half-owned by
Speaker:somebody in marketing, half-owned,
Speaker:maybe by somebody in sales who was just
Speaker:like tired of dealing with the weird
Speaker:handoff or like total lack thereof.
Speaker:Um, and then maybe even sometimes
Speaker:like a random executive where
Speaker:they're just trying to like fill
Speaker:this Gap between the two functions
Speaker:and even between like sales and CS.
Speaker:And there's no one sitting in
Speaker:the middle of that you know,
Speaker:Venn diagram, that I just drew.
Speaker:uh, and All the processes
Speaker:are different, right?
Speaker:It's like marketing went their direction.
Speaker:Sales went their direction, CS
Speaker:and support went their direction
Speaker:and nothing's talking and then you
Speaker:have like a major, major issue.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Um, and, and I feel like more often
Speaker:than not, that's how it gets too, Right.
Speaker:Which I get-
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:...is what you're finding, which is why
Speaker:you started this business on the side.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:Yeah, it's...
Speaker:See, we call it the, the
Speaker:Frankenstein system, Um,
Speaker:Oh, that's good.
Speaker:...because what ends up happening?
Speaker:And I've seen so many Salesforce
Speaker:instances, for example, where
Speaker:you go into that and it's, just,
Speaker:straight-up, it's a Frankenstein.
Speaker:And so, what am I looking at here?
Speaker:like what what's actually happened.
Speaker:Uh, but you said a great
Speaker:point, um, about foundation.
Speaker:And that I, I wanna touch on that
Speaker:because when, when I first started
Speaker:doing this, I started talking about
Speaker:"We want something that is scalable.
Speaker:We wanna build a scalable foundation
Speaker:and I've stopped using the term.
Speaker:scalable, And I don't know...
Speaker:I don't know where I've read that.
Speaker:I don't know if it's a book or something.
Speaker:I, I saw it not too long ago, but
Speaker:the sense is, like stop trying to
Speaker:be scalable from the beginning.
Speaker:And the perspective had been
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...is that if you do things that
Speaker:are scalable you won't often do
Speaker:the right thing at the right time.
Speaker:And so in this case
Speaker:it's actually scalable.
Speaker:Is yeah, this solution we're gonna
Speaker:outgrow me, or this thing we're
Speaker:doing, it's, it's gonna, you know,
Speaker:we're gonna get rid of it with the
Speaker:intention to do something different
Speaker:so that doesn't happen from scale.
Speaker:The foundation though,
Speaker:a strong foundation.
Speaker:Allows you to dump things and toss
Speaker:things out and add new thing, And
Speaker:that foundation is often on a data
Speaker:perspective, if you're on a you know
Speaker:an overarching approach perspective.
Speaker:And so that that's one of the new things
Speaker:to do when when we build Salesforce.
Speaker:or we build uh, you know, revenue
Speaker:systems for businesses, The perspective
Speaker:is, is that we're going to set you
Speaker:up with everything that you need to
Speaker:not have to go back and completely
Speaker:rethink everything from, from, from the
Speaker:ground up and that what we then say.
Speaker:is, Footnotes kill followup", And
Speaker:every time we have to change, the way
Speaker:that you think about a lead, the way
Speaker:that you report, the way that we do
Speaker:everything you've created a footnote.
Speaker:where, Well, we've only been doing this
Speaker:for about six months, so we've only
Speaker:been doing this for about five months.
Speaker:Well, show me, the year-over-year growth.
Speaker:well that data back there's a little,
Speaker:So, like that's all, it's it's like
Speaker:investor 101 in this case where you're
Speaker:like, okay, like I've probably seen
Speaker:this a million times, but imagine you
Speaker:go into a place where the business.
Speaker:is like, "Yes, We've kept
Speaker:consistency across the board.
Speaker:Despite the fact we've changed how we do.
Speaker:it.
Speaker:But the data and the, and the foundation
Speaker:is the same and it's designed for.
Speaker:growth."
Speaker:Yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker:Um, I'll take uh, scalable
Speaker:foundation out of my vocabulary
Speaker:because I, I mean, I agree.
Speaker:I think it's like scalable
Speaker:for that moment in time.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:And I feel like I say like phase of growth
Speaker:a lot in my day-to-day, because I'm like
Speaker:in this phase of growth, this is what's
Speaker:gonna be like, really important for us.
Speaker:However, this next phase of growth, we
Speaker:should think like this, or do like this?
Speaker:And if we could keep some type of that
Speaker:foundation again, But That but notes thing
Speaker:as well, I think is a great point because
Speaker:even us, like in our Google analytics
Speaker:account, it's like footnotes, right?
Speaker:This thing happened on this day.
Speaker:Oh, we changed, you know, we shifted
Speaker:strategies on this day and we have just
Speaker:like annotations for like everything so
Speaker:that we can try and validate or dismiss
Speaker:like dips or inflations in traffic.
Speaker:Um, and that same sentiment like
Speaker:dissolves to your entire business.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Um, It's just not maybe as
Speaker:trackable as GA annotation.
Speaker:No, no, no.
Speaker:Um, [laughing] but no, it's, a great...
Speaker:it's all, it's all good points.
Speaker:And I think these are good things
Speaker:for like the audience to take away
Speaker:and think about how this affects
Speaker:their org, or how they could change
Speaker:some of these things that are maybe
Speaker:already happening for their business.
Speaker:Um, with the few minutes that we have
Speaker:left, I want to dive into this and
Speaker:I don't know if you're going to have
Speaker:enough time to cover it in as much depth
Speaker:as you want, but I, it's interesting
Speaker:enough, you, when we were chatting
Speaker:before this, um, interview and, you
Speaker:know, discussing general topics to
Speaker:talk about, you talked about having
Speaker:a deep passion for psychographics
Speaker:and measuring the right metrics.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:I feel like we just touched on
Speaker:data a little bit, um, but I've
Speaker:never heard anybody say that they
Speaker:have a passion for psychographics.
Speaker:So I feel like maybe you should
Speaker:elaborate just a little bit.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:So, So I think it, it it stems back
Speaker:to, um, a conversation that I'm having
Speaker:almost every day that irritates me
Speaker:to no end, but it's about conversion
Speaker:rates and, uh, the, the industry,
Speaker:the businesses, everything are very
Speaker:focused on, well, how do I optimize
Speaker:my conversion rate from, you know, MQL
Speaker:to, to Sal or SAL SQL or, you know, how
Speaker:do I You know, fix my win rate and the
Speaker:difficulty that I have about those things?
Speaker:is That it, it's There are two
Speaker:principles I would then dive into
Speaker:specific but the better solution.
Speaker:The first one is Goodhart's Law,
Speaker:And the concept is, is that you,
Speaker:if, if a measure becomes the goal,
Speaker:it ceases to be a good measure.
Speaker:Um, and so in this case it's that you,
Speaker:you Yeah, I can make the win rate better.
Speaker:if I just put less things in the pipe or
Speaker:I just, I, I drop my, initial conversion
Speaker:rate on some super qualified leads.
Speaker:But what ends up happening
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...is you start missing things.
Speaker:there.
Speaker:That leads to the second point,
Speaker:which is the multi-arm bandit.
Speaker:the multi-arm bandit concept is
Speaker:that you have to time this balance
Speaker:between exploitation and exploration.
Speaker:And what I mean by that is you say
Speaker:you optimize, optimize, optimize.
Speaker:where we're like, yeah, we know if we talk
Speaker:to this particular customer, uh, they're
Speaker:a great fit and we're going to close.
Speaker:So we're just going to target
Speaker:that really great customer.
Speaker:But What ends up happening is is that.
Speaker:If you don't target the customer that
Speaker:you're not sure about or if the customer
Speaker:is not a perfect fit, you don't find
Speaker:out why they're not a perfect fit.
Speaker:You don't see there's a value there.
Speaker:You don't innovate your business for that.
Speaker:And then you don't actually grow And
Speaker:so that multi-armed bandit concept
Speaker:is the actual optimal path is not
Speaker:through exploiting what we know, but
Speaker:it's balancing, exploring what you
Speaker:Don't and then from the learnings
Speaker:of that, continuing to exploit
Speaker:what you, what you now learned.
Speaker:Uh, And so to do that, fixing conversion
Speaker:rates, or being like "Yeah, this piece
Speaker:converts at a higher rate, which is gonna
Speaker:produce more [inaudible 00:26:37]," Sure.
Speaker:if you look at the numbers
Speaker:great, that's fine.
Speaker:But what it doesn't tell you
Speaker:is why is the person there?
Speaker:What, what is, what is their,
Speaker:what is their path to interacting?
Speaker:What do they feel when they get
Speaker:on the phone, and, and what...
Speaker:You know, how should we
Speaker:communicate with them?
Speaker:And so on the ph-, a psychographics
Speaker:perspective is is like, Because, and
Speaker:I think in CMS's, now you're staring
Speaker:to see this a little bit more, but you
Speaker:know, oh, this they've converted on
Speaker:this particular piece of content and
Speaker:therefore they must care about this.
Speaker:But I want to know is like, how long, how
Speaker:long did they spend there and and what
Speaker:was their path and what type of questions
Speaker:Can we assume that they were asking, them?
Speaker:can we get our chat bot to
Speaker:just ask a random question that
Speaker:pops up they're on this page?
Speaker:Hey, are you like for, for us with,
Speaker:the, the Shopify Fulfillment network,
Speaker:for example, you know, they may be
Speaker:on there, they're looking at a piece
Speaker:that says when to switch from, uh,
Speaker:self-fulfilling to third-party logistics,
Speaker:we could make an assumption that at that
Speaker:point, they're, maybe they're growing.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But then the pop, the chat popup
Speaker:that says like, um, how much growth
Speaker:have you had over the, over the.
Speaker:year..."
Speaker:And then he's like, oh,
Speaker:like a 10%, 50%, 100%."
Speaker:from there you start to understand,
Speaker:oh, the person is getting hammered.
Speaker:Maybe they've gone viral, they're
Speaker:getting hammered with product requests.
Speaker:or, or [inaudible 00:27:42] requests
Speaker:and there's, they're drowning.
Speaker:Or maybe it's like, oh,
Speaker:they're having steady growth.
Speaker:So this will be a slower buying process.
Speaker:Um, you know, all those things.
Speaker:so psychographics for me is, is that.
Speaker:fir-...
Speaker:like, forget everything.
Speaker:Let's focus on the human, the,
Speaker:the actual human that is there.
Speaker:because businesses they don't
Speaker:actually buy it's it's, it's the
Speaker:person, the person buys, how to
Speaker:get inside their hearts and minds?
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:...How to get inside that feeling?
Speaker:And then you have to put in measures to
Speaker:actually measure those psychographics
Speaker:Capture it from your sales team.
Speaker:What are, What are the
Speaker:sales people carrying?
Speaker:They write a text note, But what about
Speaker:like does this, is this person very
Speaker:aggressive in the negotiation is this
Speaker:person, someone who's a low risk taker is
Speaker:this grabbing those things allow you to
Speaker:build better marketing content, allow you
Speaker:to do more compelling sales, and then the
Speaker:best part after is Once you've closed the
Speaker:deal, you have a profile on this person.
Speaker:you can reduce churn from that
Speaker:because you can then understand
Speaker:how should I communicate with this?
Speaker:person."
Speaker:Uh, and open text Box is from
Speaker:sales teams and not capturing in...
Speaker:marketing doesn't do that.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:Uh, So I think it happens
Speaker:throughout the entire process.
Speaker:and, And that is that, that major focus.
Speaker:So I haven't quite cracked the cracked
Speaker:the co-, the secret on that yet, but it's,
Speaker:it's a passion of mine now to to do that.
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:And I think too, like getting
Speaker:stuck in, um, exploitation.
Speaker:is m-maybe more common than not.
Speaker:Um, because I feel like even us
Speaker:to a certain degree, as we were
Speaker:scaling and ramping very quickly,
Speaker:we were like, these are our target
Speaker:accounts because they sit XYZ.
Speaker:However, in that we noticed
Speaker:exactly what you're saying.
Speaker:So, um, something that's tactical
Speaker:that we've started doing that maybe
Speaker:others listening could implement
Speaker:for themselves as well is we have
Speaker:a a team of trailblazers internally
Speaker:where it's like, that is their comp,
Speaker:that's what they're measured on.
Speaker:It's Anything other than
Speaker:what we've been doing.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:So they like go out and do their
Speaker:own like quick analysis market,
Speaker:understanding, etc., um, and stand it up.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And just like do the polar opposite of
Speaker:what it is that we've always been doing.
Speaker:And just try new markets or um,
Speaker:new verticals, new under like new
Speaker:understandings of people, titles, like
Speaker:anything that we can get in front.
Speaker:of that's The polar opposite of what
Speaker:we've been doing and it's actually
Speaker:starting to work really well.
Speaker:Um, we've stood that up, I
Speaker:guess, a quarter or so ago.
Speaker:So we're still fairly in the infancy
Speaker:stages as far as like scaling it.
Speaker:Um, But it was like a passion project
Speaker:from our sales leader where he just,
Speaker:you know, Hey, we've been going after
Speaker:the same types of people, the same
Speaker:accounts, the same companies, etc.
Speaker:We need to try something different.
Speaker:Um, and it's working really well.
Speaker:So now we're s-, we're standing
Speaker:up in marketing armed like help.
Speaker:Cause it's been purely
Speaker:outbound to this point.
Speaker:Um, so now we're gonna start to try
Speaker:and generate some inbound interest as
Speaker:well on, um, the trailblazing accounts.
Speaker:that Those teams have been going after.
Speaker:Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Speaker:So that's something maybe similar and
Speaker:tactical then what this nurse could
Speaker:stand up or consider, um, implementing
Speaker:something like that in their org.
Speaker:But I think it's a great point.
Speaker:that-
Speaker:That, that's, that, Yeah.
Speaker:And that's absolutely, that's so true.
Speaker:Like you, you...
Speaker:I love that you guys are doing that, but
Speaker:I I think the, the kind of thinking here
Speaker:is that, you know what, doesn't kill
Speaker:you makes you stronger, like go close
Speaker:a bad deal, just go close a bad deal.
Speaker:It's what happens.
Speaker:And and from that perspective,
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:... of it is, you know, you, you, you don't
Speaker:know what you don't know, so go out
Speaker:and learn and and you'll be better.
Speaker:for it.
Speaker:Exactly even better for it.
Speaker:Last question, before we hop off this call
Speaker:is, um, what is someone, something that
Speaker:you've read listened to their podcast?
Speaker:you've followed them on LinkedIn,
Speaker:etc., that others you think would
Speaker:find value from doing the same?
Speaker:Um, oh, put, put me on
Speaker:the spot on this one.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:Sorry.
Speaker:[Laughing] I like to ask ad-hoc and
Speaker:not warn people because then you
Speaker:get like a good genuine response.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, you know, I would say, um,
Speaker:You know, [inaudible 00:31:14]...
Speaker:I mean, if you're not following uh,
Speaker:Adam Grant, for example, you you
Speaker:should, um, I'm a little biased.
Speaker:I come from a psychology background
Speaker:and I always wanted to be an
Speaker:organizational psychologist.
Speaker:So I kind of...
Speaker:I'm infatuated with that whole the
Speaker:whole career line, but there's a
Speaker:lot of really good things there.
Speaker:And I I think, uh, for me, an objective
Speaker:that I've had here is to see the
Speaker:human in in the people around us.
Speaker:It's very easy.
Speaker:to get, You know, oh,
Speaker:they're they're in my way.
Speaker:Or, or, you know, they're, they're
Speaker:not very smart they're not doing
Speaker:everything, but you stop and realize,
Speaker:you know, they have parents, they
Speaker:have children, they have loved ones.
Speaker:They've, are in this crazy
Speaker:world, uh, on their own.
Speaker:And the best thing that you can
Speaker:do then is show up and see that
Speaker:human and interact with that human.
Speaker:And I find a lot of the stuff that Adam
Speaker:Grant, uh, pops out is exceptionally,
Speaker:really good about again, maybe not
Speaker:being an asshole and, and trying to
Speaker:get the most out of, out of, uh, not
Speaker:just yourself, but the team around you.
Speaker:So, uh, that...
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's, that's probably what
Speaker:I would say for that one.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Not a cop-out at all.
Speaker:Adam Grant is brilliant and
Speaker:none of my guests have mentioned
Speaker:him yet, so that's good.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:All right [laughing].
Speaker:Not, new.
Speaker:Well-taken.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:well, thank you again
Speaker:so much for coming on.
Speaker:If anybody needs to keep up
Speaker:with you or wants to know
Speaker:more about what you're doing.
Speaker:at Shopify, LinkedIn,
Speaker:LinkedIn, LinkedIn's the way to go.
Speaker:Beautiful.
Speaker:Find Craig on LinkedIn, We'll
Speaker:link it in the show notes as well.
Speaker:Um, thanks so much and we'll
Speaker:see you on the next episode.
