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Disruptive leadership
Episode 825th January 2024 • How to Take the Lead • Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade
00:00:00 00:35:04

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Is being a disruptor about making trouble? We don't think so and it's one of the things we explore in this conversation about disruptive leadership. In this episode of How To Take The Lead we consider how disruptive leadership can support your teams/ organisations.

We discuss:

  • what being a disruptive leader really means?
  • the challenges disruption can cause
  • how to take other people on a journey of change as part of disruption
  • testing out disruption in small, more manageable ways
  • changing or shifting your mindset in relation to dispruption
  • being comfortable with your role or the role of others in disruptive leadership.

Resources and helpful links

About How to Take the Lead

How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.

Every episode we explore a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.

If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.

Get involved

If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast. We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting.

If you want to watch this episode, subscribe to our YouTube channel to make sure you don't miss out.

And you can be a part of our Substack community, where you can get extra bonus goodies, network with a community of leaders and get direct access to us both.

We're also over on Instagram for more behind the scenes, news and views.

Plus if you want to work with us to challenge and change leadership in your organisation get in touch by dropping us an email howtotakethelead@gmail.com or DM us on the socials.

Transcripts

Lee Griffith:

You could just imagine that I've got this

Lee Griffith:

What's this is another very niche cartoon reference.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: We've moved on from Lee-isms I find in this

Lee Griffith:

series, and we're just going for niche references that only a

Lee Griffith:

small percentage of our listeners are likely to

Lee Griffith:

understand.

Lee Griffith:

Welcome to How to Take the Lead the podcast where

Lee Griffith:

we challenge the myths and stereotypes of what it means to

Lee Griffith:

be a leader today, and help you to succeed in post without

Lee Griffith:

compromise.

Unknown:

I'm Lee Griffith,

Unknown:

Carrie-Ann Wade: and I'm Carrie-Ann Wade, and together we

Unknown:

will be your guide question everything we've ever learned

Unknown:

about leadership, sharing our experiences along the way, and

Unknown:

inspiring you to make a real impact in

Unknown:

your role visit how

Lee Griffith:

to take the lead.com For show notes past

Lee Griffith:

episodes and join our community.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Enjoy this episode. Hello, everybody, and

Lee Griffith:

welcome to this next episode of how to take the lead I carry out

Lee Griffith:

those of you who might not be regular listeners, I'm here with

Lee Griffith:

the lovely Lea, I don't know if you want to say hello, hello.

Lee Griffith:

Before we get into the

Lee Griffith:

I've been watching loads of University Challenge

Lee Griffith:

and I was just I felt like well you're

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: practicing your University Challenge moment with

Lee Griffith:

the wave. So if you're watching over on YouTube, you will have

Lee Griffith:

got Lisa Holly's going to say hi when she appears on University

Lee Griffith:

Challenge at some point. Brilliant. I love it. Before we

Lee Griffith:

get into the bones of the episode, I'll do a little bit of

Lee Griffith:

housekeeping if that's okay with you, Lee, just to say that we

Lee Griffith:

are on your favorite podcast platform. We drop in every

Lee Griffith:

Thursday with a new episode, you can get all of the links for

Lee Griffith:

that over at how to take the lead.com where you can also find

Lee Griffith:

out more about catching up with us on the socials, we are on

Lee Griffith:

Instagram. And you can also sign up to our substack community

Lee Griffith:

where four episodes of the podcast in series four, we have

Lee Griffith:

also been publishing. I've called them companion articles,

Lee Griffith:

but I don't know if that's what they are is that sounds a bit

Lee Griffith:

old fashioned. But we've been publishing articles every week

Lee Griffith:

alongside the episode with a few more thoughts and some insight

Lee Griffith:

following on from our conversations. And if you are a

Lee Griffith:

paid subscriber a full on substack, you will also get some

Lee Griffith:

added extras including prompts, helpful tips, additional

Lee Griffith:

resources. And so if you are into how to take the lead, go on

Lee Griffith:

over to the website and check all of that out and engage with

Lee Griffith:

us. Is there anything else I need to say about how people can

Lee Griffith:

generally get in touch with us or follow along with the action?

Lee Griffith:

Or when we're on YouTube? We're on YouTube. I mentioned it early

Lee Griffith:

doors but yes, we're also on YouTube if hearing our dulcet

Lee Griffith:

tones is not enough for you. You can also watch us as you go over

Lee Griffith:

on YouTube. So I think that's everything that's all the places

Lee Griffith:

where as how to take the lead. So I will well first of all, I

Lee Griffith:

should ask you how you are I normally do and I haven't they

Lee Griffith:

literally straight down to business by business. How are

Lee Griffith:

you?

Lee Griffith:

Thank you. Yeah. Actually, I've had a I've had a

Lee Griffith:

busy day. I just not long got off a meeting and I ran out to

Lee Griffith:

use ablutions and go and get myself a fresh cup before I

Lee Griffith:

hopped on to this coffee and I looked in the mirror and thought

Lee Griffith:

oh, this ghastly to go on television like and then I

Lee Griffith:

thought what can we undo carry on would put on a lipstick. So

Lee Griffith:

I've put on a lipstick and it's elevated me

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: it's elevated again it goes lovely with that

Lee Griffith:

top. I have to say that

Lee Griffith:

was a bad side. I literally just put my hand in or

Lee Griffith:

it could have been like some vampy purple.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Whatever came out it was potluck on the

Lee Griffith:

lipstick front. Well, I'm glad you're feeling elevated. I'm

Lee Griffith:

glad you've had a busy day. My day has been a bit more chilled.

Lee Griffith:

Actually, I've been I've been having a sort of catch up day,

Lee Griffith:

which has been nice. And it's very rare in the day job at

Lee Griffith:

least that I don't have a day full of meetings, but I didn't

Lee Griffith:

today. So I've just been catching up on my admin booking

Lee Griffith:

in some of the meetings that I need to have over the next few

Lee Griffith:

weeks. I'm feeling quite on top of things, which is very nice.

Lee Griffith:

Don't advertise that you've got me though,

Lee Griffith:

because people will not allow that to happen again.

Lee Griffith:

Absolutely.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: And also it was a good reminder for me to put my

Lee Griffith:

time blocking in for the chunks of time where I'm like, right

Lee Griffith:

this is time I'm doing a project. This is my admin time,

Lee Griffith:

just to anybody looking just sees the more grayed out and

Lee Griffith:

they can't sneak in a meeting that I don't want to have. So

Lee Griffith:

yes, taking some of our own advice about managing my time.

Lee Griffith:

So yes, thank you for asking me. And so we will now get into the

Lee Griffith:

bones of this episode and We are going to talk about disruptive

Lee Griffith:

leadership today. If that's alright with you, it shouldn't

Lee Griffith:

be a surprise because obviously, some listeners may not think

Lee Griffith:

this, but we do prep these conversations a little bit so

Lee Griffith:

that we're, you know, we're both talking about the same topic. So

Lee Griffith:

today's topic is disruptive leadership. And I was just going

Lee Griffith:

to set the scene a little bit about what we mean when we're

Lee Griffith:

having the conversation about being a disruptive leader,

Lee Griffith:

because we do mean it in the main in a more positive sense.

Lee Griffith:

So we're not talking about people being disruptive to be

Lee Griffith:

difficult and awkward and making trouble troublemakers a good

Lee Griffith:

description, we are talking about disruptive leadership in

Lee Griffith:

that positive sense. So it might be about well, it will be about

Lee Griffith:

challenging the status quo, because that's what we're about

Lee Griffith:

here at how to take the lead. But it's about maybe those

Lee Griffith:

leaders who are willing to try new things put themselves out

Lee Griffith:

there. But all in the hope of making progress and improvement

Lee Griffith:

do the right thing. So that's the kind of context in which

Lee Griffith:

we're talking about disruptive leadership today. And I thought

Lee Griffith:

maybe to start a softly I would ask you, how might you describe

Lee Griffith:

a disruptive leader? So what sort of traits or

Lee Griffith:

characteristics do you think disruptive leaders have just to

Lee Griffith:

kind of get us in that headspace?

Lee Griffith:

So I think the first thing is Yeah, disruptive

Lee Griffith:

doesn't mean, troublesome, because I think some people

Lee Griffith:

might perceive you as that. And maybe we'll get into that later.

Lee Griffith:

And because usually, it means something to do with change, and

Lee Griffith:

people don't like change, they might label you that you are a

Lee Griffith:

troublemaker, but that isn't at the heart of what we're talking

Lee Griffith:

about today. For me, I think it boils down to someone who isn't

Lee Griffith:

willing to accept the status quo. And so you see in

Lee Griffith:

organizations that mentality of well, we've always done it like

Lee Griffith:

this. And I think a disrupter is someone who asks why. And now

Lee Griffith:

take a risk and want to take a step into the unknown, they'll

Lee Griffith:

be seeking to ask and answer a lot of questions that challenge

Lee Griffith:

the way things are done. And I think they're really comfortable

Lee Griffith:

with change. And being apart from the crowd, they don't want

Lee Griffith:

to just have that the sheep kind of mentality. And, and really

Lee Griffith:

comfortable with sitting with uncertainty, which which can

Lee Griffith:

often happen in a disruptive space. And I think successful

Lee Griffith:

disruptors have a self awareness, so they know when to

Lee Griffith:

push and when to back off. And I think we'll probably get into

Lee Griffith:

some of that a bit a bit later in the conversation. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that. And when you were talking about,

Lee Griffith:

he said, about being comfortable with change, one of the thoughts

Lee Griffith:

I'd had, I hadn't used the word comfortable, but I really liked

Lee Griffith:

that actually, I'd kind of gotten more of a quite

Lee Griffith:

optimistic that change can happen if they're pushing or

Lee Griffith:

pulling at the right levers. And you know, I've got the right

Lee Griffith:

strategy to make that change. So I think they're not willing to

Lee Griffith:

accept that the way things are now. That's the way it has to be

Lee Griffith:

forever, if they can see that there's room for improvement. So

Lee Griffith:

yeah, absolutely agree with you. And in in some of my own

Lee Griffith:

experience, I've found some of the disruptive leaders that I've

Lee Griffith:

worked with to actually be quite encouraging. And so as well as

Lee Griffith:

that challenge, they kind of challenge you in a in more of an

Lee Griffith:

encouraging way to kind of get you onto their same page with

Lee Griffith:

the thinking about, about change and making those improvements.

Lee Griffith:

And I've often found that disruptive leaders do have that

Lee Griffith:

clarity of vision and purpose into the longer term. And that's

Lee Griffith:

what probably drives their, their level of disruption and

Lee Griffith:

desire to want to make that change.

Lee Griffith:

I interviewed the chief exec for my other podcast,

Lee Griffith:

and he told me

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: it's all right, she is allowed to talk about it,

Lee Griffith:

everyone we don't mind. It's what did you call it, the cousin

Lee Griffith:

of I can't remember what you called it with cousin of how to

Lee Griffith:

take the lead.

Lee Griffith:

But he said something, and in my mind was

Lee Griffith:

describing a disruptive behavior. And he said, he wasn't

Lee Griffith:

interested in best practice. He was focused on next practice.

Lee Griffith:

And I really loved that frame in because it's helping you to

Lee Griffith:

focus on the need to improve and move forwards and obviously,

Lee Griffith:

they're not falling behind, or maintaining the status quo.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that and I've listened to that episode.

Lee Griffith:

And that was one of my big takeaways actually lay around

Lee Griffith:

that next practice rather than best because I think there's a

Lee Griffith:

connotation with best practice that if you're achieving it,

Lee Griffith:

then you can just stop because you're achieving that best is

Lee Griffith:

practice, but actually it's about that drive, isn't it to

Lee Griffith:

continually improve and push things forward. So, so good luck

Lee Griffith:

beside Lee, thank

Lee Griffith:

you enjoyed that one, I'm glad you boosted my

Lee Griffith:

listening.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: There'll be a link in the show notes, I'm

Lee Griffith:

sure. Um, so I think that's helpful in terms of setting the

Lee Griffith:

scene about maybe the type of person and type of leader that

Lee Griffith:

we're talking about in this space of disruption. And but

Lee Griffith:

I've wondered if we could explore a bit more now, what

Lee Griffith:

might be the benefits of disruptive leadership, because

Lee Griffith:

we've talked about it not being around troublemaking not being

Lee Griffith:

about just being disruptive for dis disruption sake. So what are

Lee Griffith:

the benefits of having a disruptive leader or disruptive

Lee Griffith:

leadership style in your organization?

Lee Griffith:

I think for me, it's at the heart of it. It's

Lee Griffith:

about bringing innovation and new thinking and new ideas into

Lee Griffith:

an organization. And when you do that, you're bringing an energy

Lee Griffith:

and an excitement to both the team and the organization. So

Lee Griffith:

then you then you start to look at those ripple effects. So you

Lee Griffith:

have that it makes you a place where other people want to work,

Lee Griffith:

you become an attractive organization, you become known

Lee Griffith:

reputation leaders as something that that don't, you know,

Lee Griffith:

somewhere that does things differently, and people want to

Lee Griffith:

work with you. And I think it just, it helps breed a genuine

Lee Griffith:

improvement, whether it's performance, whether it's

Lee Griffith:

morale, whether it's reputation. And I think if we look at from

Lee Griffith:

an end user perspective, even if we look at ourselves, and how we

Lee Griffith:

operate as human beings, assuming we all are human

Lee Griffith:

beings, or is ticking

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: the box, I am not a robot,

Lee Griffith:

we, you know, we want more over time, we want

Lee Griffith:

things to be innovative, we expect more from the

Lee Griffith:

organizations that we work with, we want to see improvements in

Lee Griffith:

the services that we use. And this is only ever going to come

Lee Griffith:

about through leaders who are themselves or are of others

Lee Griffith:

encouraging some form of disruption.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, absolutely. It's that

Lee Griffith:

willingness for yourself, but also that ability to encourage

Lee Griffith:

and empower others, isn't it to to get into that space where

Lee Griffith:

people are thinking and doing in terms of innovation

Lee Griffith:

transformation. And for me, it's about that journey of like

Lee Griffith:

progress. So we just talked about it in the last last answer

Lee Griffith:

to the question, which was around like moving forwards,

Lee Griffith:

always pushing rather than accepting things have to be the

Lee Griffith:

way they've always been. So So yeah, I don't disagree with with

Lee Griffith:

anything you've said there. And I think the bit for me, as a

Lee Griffith:

leader is actually thinking about the fact that it does

Lee Griffith:

bring results. So actually, there are results that come for

Lee Griffith:

your organization, your teams, like you say it might be your

Lee Griffith:

customers, your stakeholders from having a level of

Lee Griffith:

disruption in your organization. And it's about that openness to

Lee Griffith:

that I think for me, I think it's hard to achieve some of

Lee Griffith:

those benefits if there isn't that open approach and

Lee Griffith:

encouragement for that disruption to happen. Yeah. And

Lee Griffith:

so I guess on the flip side of the benefits, we should talk

Lee Griffith:

about it and you've already mentioned there is a perception

Lee Griffith:

sometimes perhaps them being a disruptive leader means that you

Lee Griffith:

are a troublemaker or someone who is on purpose, trying to

Lee Griffith:

poke the bear maybe as it were, but are there any disadvantages,

Lee Griffith:

in your view lead to disruptive leadership? Or are there any dis

Lee Griffith:

benefits to disruptive leaders?

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on a the type

Lee Griffith:

of disruption that you're you're causing. We've we've probably

Lee Griffith:

all worked with people who themselves might think they are

Lee Griffith:

being disruptors. But actually the troublemaker, and what they

Lee Griffith:

do is cause chaos and harm. But they do it in their view, you

Lee Griffith:

know, they believe their Why is to be disruptive and shake to

Lee Griffith:

shake things up. But actually, it can have a real negative

Lee Griffith:

impact on culture, if they're not doing disruption in the

Lee Griffith:

right way. I think there's issues of pace. So some people

Lee Griffith:

move on, really quickly to the next thing and people can't keep

Lee Griffith:

up with particularly that, you know, in innovative people their

Lee Griffith:

mind might be wearing, they might be like, Oh, well I've,

Lee Griffith:

I've said this for for implementation or execution. I'm

Lee Griffith:

moving on to the next thing. So that can be really hard for

Lee Griffith:

people to keep up with. And, and I think also it's the it's

Lee Griffith:

there's it's not just the type of disruption but it's how you

Lee Griffith:

disrupt. So the tact and approach that you take to take

Lee Griffith:

people with you on that journey. So you're going to have People

Lee Griffith:

who perhaps as we said, right at the start, don't see the need

Lee Griffith:

for change. We've always done it like this. And actually, you

Lee Griffith:

could offend them if you don't make the case for change in the

Lee Griffith:

right way. And they might think, Oh, do you think I'm out of

Lee Griffith:

touch or out of date, and they might double down on their own

Lee Griffith:

behaviors and thinking. But also, if you're a disrupter,

Lee Griffith:

you're you from a personality trait point of view, you're

Lee Griffith:

likely to be really happy and comfortable with challenging

Lee Griffith:

things. And you probably have a confidence in your decision

Lee Griffith:

making and the way that you execute things. You may be happy

Lee Griffith:

with confronting issues, because that's how you kind of get the

Lee Griffith:

Gretton and get stuff moving on. But the the kind of other side

Lee Griffith:

of that is that that might come across as intimidating and it

Lee Griffith:

might come across as adversarial with people. And so yeah, that

Lee Griffith:

that way that you approach, disruption is really important.

Lee Griffith:

And I think that is it. Oh, what's the guy's name? Facebook

Lee Griffith:

guy, Mark Zuckerberg, that's it. He said something around, move

Lee Griffith:

fast and break things. And that was his mantra at Facebook. And

Lee Griffith:

yes, that's can be a way that disruptors work. But you can

Lee Griffith:

imagine in your organization, where you perhaps aren't known

Lee Griffith:

for innovation, you might not be cutting edge to have someone

Lee Griffith:

come in acting that way. You could just imagine that I've got

Lee Griffith:

this. What's this is another very niche cartoon reference.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: We've moved on funnily isms, I fit in this

Lee Griffith:

series, and we're just going for niche references that only a

Lee Griffith:

small percentage of our listeners are likely to

Lee Griffith:

understand.

Lee Griffith:

I'm not thinking of wily Coyote, I'm thinking of

Lee Griffith:

the Oh,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: the Tasmanian devil, our the Tasmanian devil

Lee Griffith:

that you'd like wells around and yeah, causes chaos. I

Lee Griffith:

forgot why that came into my head as I was

Lee Griffith:

talking. But anyway, that's the image I leave you with. I think

Lee Griffith:

I think with

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: that image in mind, I think you're right,

Lee Griffith:

like, because some of what you've described is about the

Lee Griffith:

culture of the organization, isn't it. And actually, if

Lee Griffith:

you're a disruptive leader, going into an organization that

Lee Griffith:

maybe hasn't had that kind of leadership before, is going to

Lee Griffith:

take that time to take people on the journey with you and

Lee Griffith:

actually be an alone disrupter and not building into your

Lee Griffith:

approach to disruption, that taking people on the journey,

Lee Griffith:

that engagement that really trying to get the buy in for the

Lee Griffith:

future state you're trying to create will actually be really

Lee Griffith:

challenging. And you won't see those results that we've talked

Lee Griffith:

about that you can get as a benefit from from that

Lee Griffith:

disruption. So I think that's really important to think about.

Lee Griffith:

And you've mentioned already, the couple of things that were

Lee Griffith:

really in, really in my head, I guess around doing disruption

Lee Griffith:

the right way, which was that change pace, bringing people on

Lee Griffith:

the journey with you, because you have to start from the point

Lee Griffith:

that not everyone is going to be on the same page at the same

Lee Griffith:

time as you are. So actually, how do you get people to that

Lee Griffith:

point where everyone is feeling more comfortable and more able

Lee Griffith:

to accept that level of disruption, let alone them

Lee Griffith:

potentially empower them to do the disruption for themselves?

Lee Griffith:

And I think sometimes, and you mentioned this as well, early on

Lee Griffith:

in what you were saying the that disruptive leaders maybe have

Lee Griffith:

that were in mind that is moving on to the next idea all the

Lee Griffith:

time. What's the next innovation, and sometimes in my

Lee Griffith:

experience, disruptive leaders don't leave things long enough

Lee Griffith:

to embed them or to see the results to enable them to assess

Lee Griffith:

what the next step should be, because they've already moved

Lee Griffith:

like 10 steps ahead or to another idea. And I think

Lee Griffith:

sometimes that can feel a little bit dangerous, because you're

Lee Griffith:

not doing that assessment and evaluation piece to go actually,

Lee Griffith:

is the innovation or transformational change I've put

Lee Griffith:

in place doing what what I intended it to do. And because

Lee Griffith:

you've already kind of forgotten about it and moved on. So I

Lee Griffith:

think there is something there about that being a potential

Lee Griffith:

disadvantage if you don't have the insight as a disruptive

Lee Griffith:

leader to maybe do that evaluation and measurement piece

Lee Griffith:

and just take a breath sometimes and pause because that that is

Lee Griffith:

okay.

Lee Griffith:

And also it's it's about knowing what are the wins

Lee Griffith:

you want to go for like not every idea has to be executed.

Lee Griffith:

Not everything needs to be action right here and now. You

Lee Griffith:

can sometimes create a false sense of urgency and this this

Lee Griffith:

frustrates me about Oregon. isolation is when they have to

Lee Griffith:

have a burning platform to get everything to change. And, and

Lee Griffith:

that's where we tend to fall down with change. If you

Lee Griffith:

actually look at the percentage of successful change programs in

Lee Griffith:

organizations, it's really low, it's like less than 30% of

Lee Griffith:

change is successful. And that's because, you know, process,

Lee Griffith:

considerate consideration, communication, all of that gets

Lee Griffith:

pushed by the wayside. And

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: yeah, I don't disagree with you at all. So I

Lee Griffith:

guess as we're talking, some of what we're describing really

Lee Griffith:

does sound like personality type and sort of character traits of

Lee Griffith:

people to kind of be working in that way, because that is what

Lee Griffith:

comes naturally to them. So I was wondering if you know, there

Lee Griffith:

are people listening to this, and they're thinking, Oh, my

Lee Griffith:

God, all of this is so anxiety and Jason and it feels really

Lee Griffith:

scary to me, because it's not the natural state in which I

Lee Griffith:

feel comfortable working. Can you develop a disruptive

Lee Griffith:

leadership style? And if so, kind of how do you go about

Lee Griffith:

doing that?

Lee Griffith:

Personally, I think you can like with any bit

Lee Griffith:

of the leadership, toolbox, toolkit, whatever you want to

Lee Griffith:

call it, that all of them though, they're like muscles and

Lee Griffith:

skills that you just have to keep working on. And it might be

Lee Griffith:

a really, really tiny muscle or it might be you know, my glutes

Lee Griffith:

are killing me today because I did a massive workout, but like

Lee Griffith:

it just

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I had a lot of leg action yesterday actually.

Lee Griffith:

So it really hurt when I came up the stairs today.

Lee Griffith:

So it's like that but being conscious about what

Lee Griffith:

it is you're you know, you know, you worked on your legs

Lee Griffith:

yesterday, they hurt today, you bet you're gonna carry on going

Lee Griffith:

going for it and exercising anyway, I'm taking that analogy

Lee Griffith:

a bit too far. But I think that behind it, there is a lot of

Lee Griffith:

mindset stuff that's at play. So you might not be comfortable

Lee Griffith:

with change or taking risks for example. And maybe you need to

Lee Griffith:

work on trust and trust in your peers. For them to be the

Lee Griffith:

disruptive ones there are all types of things you might need

Lee Griffith:

to work on as a leader and that doesn't mean that you couldn't

Lee Griffith:

get there but it goes back to that self awareness piece and

Lee Griffith:

understanding of way where you need to work and it might just

Lee Griffith:

be you need to dip your toe in the water you know, when I

Lee Griffith:

learned to swim I didn't go and jump off the 50 meter diving

Lee Griffith:

board and just hoped it happens I had lessons so maybe you don't

Lee Griffith:

you know if you're not someone who wants to disrupt don't turn

Lee Griffith:

the whole organization upside down start small and build on

Lee Griffith:

that you learn Yeah, this week my my level of disruption was

Lee Griffith:

I've been really thinking about time and how I use my time and

Lee Griffith:

the concept of time and that we feel like we've never got enough

Lee Griffith:

time and you know me and anyone that listens to this knows me

Lee Griffith:

that I love a Trello board I love a notion jest or you know I

Lee Griffith:

plan every

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: view are the most organized and planned

Lee Griffith:

person I genuinely know in my entire life. I've

Lee Griffith:

ripped up my to do list this week right and you're

Lee Griffith:

right that's me being disruptive to myself you love that love

Lee Griffith:

that love in me

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: is constraining you potentially from I feel like

Lee Griffith:

this could be a whole spin off episode just exploring this with

Lee Griffith:

you Lee or like you know what is it like the extra slice on the

Lee Griffith:

Bake Off or whatever is like need to get into this at some

Lee Griffith:

point with Lee

Lee Griffith:

I can't I can't do another year where I dick about

Lee Griffith:

with with kind of different variations of tables and charts

Lee Griffith:

to try and manage my time because there will never be

Lee Griffith:

enough time and because also the time it takes you working out

Lee Griffith:

which is the best one of those for you to use. It's time you

Lee Griffith:

could have spent doing one of the things exactly exactly so

Lee Griffith:

you know that's majorly disrupt yeah to me it is working so you

Lee Griffith:

can start small we need to be honest

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm sorry listeners. I'm sorry listeners.

Lee Griffith:

I am still astounded by this because of all the people I

Lee Griffith:

thought it was going to say they ripped up their to do list it

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was not going to be unique with it

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I'm loving it.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I can't wait to see how this goes for you. Yeah,

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yeah, I'm just gonna be free and easy by the

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seat of my pants that maybe a little stain because I'll be

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breaking inside

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Carrie-Ann Wade: oh what what an image for your listeners

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See, this is what happens when I take away

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structure

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Carrie-Ann Wade: it disruption I fear may have gone too far too

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soon.

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You're like a different person. I forgot this

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is gonna live on you. YouTube

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Carrie-Ann Wade: forever. I will try to get us back on track at

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some point, but I'm still in this moment. Sorry.

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Oh, yeah, I was good. So I was gonna say so you

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can start by starting small you don't need to like turn the

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world though I feel like for you, I've just done that you've

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turned my world upside

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Carrie-Ann Wade: down what's happened to me I rely on you to

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be the organizer with the To Do lists. So goodness knows what's

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gonna happen for the future of how to take the lead.

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So I've still got like a semi, she's not gonna go

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Carrie-Ann Wade: one step at a time. As you said, that's your

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point, one of references going on today, I

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do not know what is happening. But anyhow, moving

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on from the pants.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: It's your point, isn't it one step at a

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time. So you've not, you're not going totally out there with

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that you still got some semi structure, which is making me

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feel better about everything.

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It could be as simple as I'm gonna start

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questioning every assumption I've made this week or whatever,

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you know, yes, at the basis of stepping into creating a

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disruptive leadership approach you yourself is, what's the

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question I'm trying to answer in disrupting this thing. And there

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is a really good book that I have, for our viewers, I don't

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know if you can see that and

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Carrie-Ann Wade: love that disruptive ideas with the are in

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the eye in

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Leandro Herrero, hopefully, I pronounced that

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right. But he walks through in that book, some pretty like

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everyday stuff that you could disrupt at work. So it could be

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looking at your structures and the ways of working, it could be

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disrupting how you run your meetings. And he gets you in

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each chapter to imagine what different would look like for

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each scenario? And then you start to plot out well, what

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will that mean, in terms of how people would behave? What would

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that mean, in terms of how they'd work? What's the impact

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of that going to be? If they start behaving and working in

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that way? What steps would I need to take to get us there and

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actually, in and of itself is a really powerful coaching

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exercise, like you're imagining your future self. And and always

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doing that exercise is helping you to test the level of

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discomfort and disruption that you might be happy with?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that. And could I build on what you

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said there about the starting small. And you know, you don't

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have to want to change the whole world in one, one fell swoop

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because I think there's something for me about, if you

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don't feel as comfortable in that space, how you can get more

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comfortable there around creating a better relationship

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with failure. Because some of what I've noticed when I work

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with people is that the reason they feel anxious about

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challenging something, or thinking there might be a better

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or different way to do it, is because there they fear that the

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new way might fail. And so therefore, they rather stick

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with where they are, because at least they know that and they

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can stay in the comfort of that. And they don't have to think

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about well, what if the change I tried to make doesn't work. So I

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definitely think there's something for me around that

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mindset shift, if you want to move into that disrupter space

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around giving yourself and the other people that you work with

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that permission to not only try the new thing, but also to fail

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at it. Because there's always going to be learning from that

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failure. So I don't, you know, don't go down that and please

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share the failures, never a failure and all of that kind of

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stuff. But actually, if you do fit fail at something, there

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will be an opportunity to learn from that and see what could

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change and be different if you try something else the next

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time. So for me, I think that relationship with failure, and

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that fear and anxiety about failing at something is

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sometimes the thing that holds people back from wanting to

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challenge the status quo or do things differently or disrupt

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but that starting small, and doing something that maybe

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initially only impacts you is the thing to do to try and get

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you into that mindset and change some of your behaviors. Yeah,

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yeah. Failure is almost not one of those or fear

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of or trying to create a scenario where you never fail.

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It's a falsehood. Like I'm always striving for Perth people

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always striving for perfection, easy for me to say. They're

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falsehoods that we seem to be kind of nurtured as we develop

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through our leadership career but actually the most impactful

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leaders and the high performing teams embrace failure in

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embrace. Good enough? Yeah. In this in striving for things to

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be better? Yeah,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: absolutely. So hopefully we've given people a

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flavor in that part of the discussion about the fact that

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you can try it out if this isn't the place that you feel most

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comfortable and confident in terms of being as a leader. So I

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guess as we always do, when we try to wrap up an episode, we

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try to give people a tip or something actionable that they

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can do. So I wondered Lee, to kind of draw us to a bit of a

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close in the conversation, what would be your top tip for

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someone who wants to? I'm going to describe it as stepping into

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their disruption. If there's somebody who was like, Yeah,

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this sounds like a bit of me, or I'm nervous about it. But I want

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to consider how I could be more disruptive as a leader, what tip

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or tips would you give to

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them? I would say, just choose one area that you

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want to just use up a little bit in some way you want to kind of

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bring that disruption. And ask yourself the question, what's

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the what's the thing you want to be different? And what what you

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might need to do differently to get there? And then you probably

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got to do a whole load of mindset work to get you to take

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the action, but start with start by asking the

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Carrie-Ann Wade: question, I love that I think that's

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important, isn't it, like, what's the purpose of the

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disruption or the change that you are trying to create and

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having that clarity about that is what will help you to then

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work out what you need to do to get yourself or, or your team

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there. But I love that idea of start small with something so

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that it doesn't feel too big and scary. It could be

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as simple as tonight, I'm going to brush my

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teeth with my toothbrush in my other hand, because that's going

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to really confuse my brain. And I'm going to feel really

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uncomfortable doing that. But once I've done it, I might then

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want to try something else a bit different to how I've always

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done it.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I mean, it couldn't get more

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straightforward than that, could it so the challenge to the

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listeners who have listened to this episode, whatever day you

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listen to it is next time you brush your teeth, do it with

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your teeth brush in the opposite and and D feed back to us on any

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of the ways you can get in contact that's gotten for you.

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Um, I think for me, it would just be about that. giving

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yourself permission piece giving yourself permission to do

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something differently. But giving yourself permission to

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learn from that if it doesn't go the way you expect it to. That's

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okay, it's okay for it not to go right, whatever your perception

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of right might have been. And I know you've given a book,

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recommendation or reference already. But I would also

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suggest that people who are really into this and want to

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kind of really get to grips with that, perhaps read rebel ideas

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by Matthew Syed, because I think that's a really good book to get

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you into that mindset and think about the sorts of behaviors

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that you might need to demonstrate to help others to

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think about disruption and change as well. So that would

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definitely be my tip. Good

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case studies in that book as well of people that

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have done things in a different way that and that might even

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just be food for

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Carrie-Ann Wade: absolutely, yes, food for thoughts, right.

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That's not a lism that was perfect and fit. Yeah,

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absolutely. And these case studies will help bring it to

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life in terms of something tangible, that again, like you

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say, might give you an idea about what you could do

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differently, to try this style of leadership out. So yeah, that

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was where I wanted to get to in the conversation, some top tips

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for our leaders. So thank you very much for providing some

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insight and advice to people listening. I would be really

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keen to hear about listeners experiences around this in terms

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of either being the disrupter or potentially being on the other

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end of being disrupted. And what's that what that felt like

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for them? So do leave us comments. Catch up with us on

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the socials drops an email or the links are on our to take the

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lead.com Until next time, where we have another exciting

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leadership conversation.

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Thanks for listening. Don't forget to hit

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follow to make sure you get the next episode. And if today's

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discussion resonated, please leave a review on Apple

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podcasts.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have our substack community where you

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can get behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and

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build your network with like minded leaders. Visit how to

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take the league.substack.com To find out more. And if you want

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to work with us to challenge and change leadership in your

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organization. Get in touch by dropping us an email how to take

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the lead@gmail.com or DM us on the socials. Until next week.

Lee Griffith:

Get out there and take the lead