In this episode of Your Practice Mastered, Richard James and MPS engage in an insightful conversation with Attorney Jonathan Breeden, the visionary owner of Breeden Law Office, who harbored a dream of owning his law firm from a young age.

Join us as he unfolds his entrepreneurial journey, revealing the deliberate choice of a law school renowned for its comprehensive firm-starting program. Attorney Jonathan delves into the transformative power of tracking numbers, shedding light on his evolution from a scarcity mindset to a mindset of abundance.

He generously imparts valuable advice to fellow attorneys, sharing insights on lead generation, phone system optimization, and the profound joy derived from prioritizing exceptional customer service. Don't miss out on tuning in to Attorney Jonathan's inspiring narrative of personal and professional growth.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: and, you know, I think, you know, we try to get better every day and we're always trying to get better. And we're always trying to figure out how to provide a better service. I mean, really, if you focus on. Client service and providing a good value. You know, we're charging a lot of money for these divorces and custody and all of this stuff, and people need to get value.

And the number one thing clients don't want from attorneys, everybody's like, they want results. No, they won't. They won't. They won't value for what they're paying and they want somebody to listen and they want an advocate. That, you know, most surveys, like results are like fourth or fifth. And if attorneys would just provide a good service, I spend time.

Right? And I try to hammer home to the people that work for me is that we're in the customer service business. We're no different than Starbucks or McDonald's or anything else. The decision to buy legal services is the exact same decision. You buy off a motion, you justify later, but people want a service and what people expect, they expect lawyers.

To be Amazon, they click something on their website and it's on their porch in three hours. If they call their lawyer, they expect a call back that day. If they email their lawyer, they're expecting an email back that day. And lawyers just don't do that. And if you could just do that, and it doesn't have to be you.

It can be a secretary or a paralegal or somebody to respond to the email or return the call. That will go a long way in providing customer service. And if your customers are happy, I don't actually control the results, right? The facts control the results. Most of the time, the result is in before they ever get here.

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Richard James: And I'm Richard James. And Michael, I got to tell you, I know we're always excited. I'm always excited. I mean, that's just me. I love what we do. But I'm really stoked about today's guest because we've watched him now grow his firm on his own, like just taking the information and implementing it like crazy.

And he's going to be like at a four timer by the end of this year in just a couple of years. And yeah, he's still running like crazy. But there's so much to learn from what Jonathan Breeden has us. done and I can't wait for our guests to hear from today. What do you think, Michael?

MPS: Oh Absolutely. This is a great picture of well, it's crazy how implementation works, right? So yeah But Jonathan super excited to have you on welcome on today

MPS: Oh, no doubt. You've got a lot to add and we're super excited to have you on. Thank you for taking the time to listen. That's excellent to hear. And as you know, you've listened, so we're going to start by breaking the ice a little bit. What's what's something that maybe not everybody knows about you?

So, you know, there was really no chance for a Republican to win. But I thought, you know what, I'm going to run this thing and I'm going to go there and I'm going to talk about the issues that I want to talk about. And so I did. And of course there's, there was no primary, nobody's going to, no Republican's going to run in this seat back then and I ran and I, of course I didn't win but I had a great time, met a ton of people.

And I remember I had a bi a huge following, and I thought for sure I won, and I didn't go down to the ballot box when everybody was voting. And I didn't win. A matter of fact, I got beat by a landslide. I still believe there was ballot stuffing going on because I wasn't there. But that's my only stint in the politics ever.

I have never, ever once stepped into a political situation other than my. Ability to try to run and win student body president. And the only reason I wanted to win student body president is he came with some like stipends. And I thought, oh, that's a great way to make a couple of extra

time

Heh

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: That's awesome.

Richard James: dollars.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: That's awesome.

Richard James: I have zero experience in, in politics. All I, my only burned experience in politics is I believe that the ballot was stuffed while I wasn't there. But that's

Heh,

sorry, Michael. Didn't mean to take us off

politics

Richard James: you win

MPS: Yeah, I did. I gave a good speech. That's what got me to win Yeah.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: Oh, awesome.

MPS: Yes. No, that that's awesome, Jonathan.

That's really cool. So you, that, I mean, that was probably quite the experience at 20 years old,

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: It was and I, you know, it was fun and I knew I really didn't have a chance to win. But the early returns had me winning. And so there was about 15 or 20 minutes where it was like. Oh man, did I actually maybe win this race? Like, and then I couldn't go to law school, you know? So then like, like my plan was to go to law school.

This was like a like a hobby. Right. It was like for 15 minutes, I was ahead on the early balloting and I had to go, Oh man, I like, I can't win this. Like I gotta go to law school. And of course I didn't, I think I got 44 percent of the vote or something. So it

MPS: Hey, that's great.

Richard James: That's all. Thanks for a great story.

MPS: What? 21 years old and 44 percent of the votes. I mean, that, that's a solid return there. Well, why don't you, I mean, obviously that's a part of the journey here but why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey as a law firm owner? Some of the key broad strokes as you went through your journey here.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: Okay, sure. So, so anyway, I grew up in Larenburg, North Carolina, which is right on the North Carolina, South Carolina line, about 15 miles from south of the border on I 95. Your listeners have ever been on I 95. They've been to the south of the border. So, you know, kind of a, an impoverished area of North Carolina was based on textiles and tobacco.

My father was a CPA. My mother was a nurse. I I made pretty good grades. I was a pretty good student. Went to NC State, which had been my goal. My parents had gone to NC State. They met at NC State. So I go to NC State after graduating high school in 93. I major in political science. I was going to law school.

And this, I had this feeling of justice and, you know, I kind of had that naturally anyway. And so I was sitting there and I had one of those great teachers, you know what I mean? At the time, a man named Spencer Willard who passed away last year, you know, really reaches out and touches you.

And he was a fascinating guy. He was sort of old school. Old school football coach from the 60s, you know, and he really did a really good job. And I said, okay, at that point, literally, I'm sitting there in 9th grade. I was like, I'm going to go to law school and I'm going to go to NC state. That's where my parents went.

It was in Buies Creek, North Carolina. Now it's in downtown Raleigh, North Carolina, and I went there because Well, they let me in, but also because they had a Start Your Own Law Firm program that was somewhat renowned and it was a very good practical school and I knew even before I went to law school that I wanted to start my own law firm, and so I actually went to that law school because it had that program, and I participated in that program All three years I was there, I wrote a business plan.

I learned about marketing. I learned about where to place an office, all of those things from a professor named Rick Rogers who last I heard lived in Elizabethtown, North Carolina, and he did a really good job of getting us ready to go. And the best part was, and it's a little bit like this podcast.

Yeah, you know, like, because in law school, they spend all this time telling you how dumb you are and how you're not very good. And they sort of beat you down a little bit. But I was like, if these guys who are not any smarter than me, Are having success following this program and doing the things this guy said and taking the same education.

And for two years, it was just me and I forwarded the phones to a StarTAC flip phone and I got on every court appointed list I could get on in Johnston County. So I did the DSS court appointed list with kids in foster care. I did the child support court appointed list. I did the misdemeanor court appointed list.

And that was one of the things they sort of instilled in us in that Start Your Own Law Firm program that I have tried to remember in the 23 years of this practice as it's grown bigger and bigger and bigger is that every dime as I go to add over to whether it's staff or new advertising or a new website is a dime I've got to make before, before I get paid and my family gets paid and I think that's where a lot of firms can make a mistake.

So anyway, but. Okay. So that's how it started. And we've been going from there. We finally hired our first employee a part time employee after two years. We didn't get a full time employee for four years. And the rest is kind of history.

And then you just revealed the fact that there was a unit law school that actually had a program to teach you how to go off and start your own firm, which is something I don't. I mean, we talk to thousands of attorneys every year, and we hear that almost never. And so those two are very rare combinations, but I want to come back to your original premise.

Like your mom, your dad was an accountant, your mom was a nurse. And so, where was the entrepreneurial spirit? Like, where did that come from that you thought you were going to own your own practice? Did your dad teach you that from a CPA perspective? Like, how did you, why did you know that at a young age?

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: Well, my father you know, when I was younger was not a CPA. When I was first born, he was in textiles and he had ended up getting laid off in middle management and textiles in the late seventies and Southeast United States and North Carolina. We lived was getting shipped out and getting eliminated.

He still loves it every minute of it, working for himself, helping small business owners, try to not have to pay more to the government because they're struggling to get by, and he absolutely loves it. And so that's what I saw. I saw somebody who worked for themselves who had some success, who just loved going to work.

I'm in a small town. All the lawyers I know are. Either solos are in two or three person firms because the town has 25,000 people. And so, so that's where I sort of think I got it from. And I got a ton of advice and I still, to this day from my father, because he has watched literally thousands of small businesses.

Succeed and fail and you learn a lot and he can say, especially early on when you know, he would say, I don't know that's what you need to do. And he hounded on me about, you got to keep your overhead manageable. You have to maintain some level of profitability here, or you're not going to be able to go forward.

And he had seen that and he had to manage that in his own firm. And so that's kind of where I got it from.

So you got the lottery there. Then you were born in a, in the birth lottery that. You're in a family where your dad went through his own corporate struggles and then opened his own firm. Got to experience what it was like to work in small business. See, small business owners gave you the advice about keeping your overhead low.

Got into a law firm that also had that teacher that was going to reveal to you that the same truths and hear from other people the same truths. And so you were hammered in at a very young age the opportunity to understand that profits are better than wages. And that the way you maximize profits is not only to grow your firm, but to watch your overhead to make sure that you keep your profits as high as possible.

So you better manage this cigar box really tightly. And then Michael, you were also raised in a family kind of experiencing the same thing. Again, you were born a certain way, but I, don't want to put words in your mouth, but I assume since you saw mom and I being running our businesses, you had some similar you know, mindset around this, is that agreeable?

MPS: Oh, absolutely. And I mean, just from the start just watching everything unfold the idea of profitability was just like second nature to me, right? It's to your point, it's not just growing, but also watching expenses. And so that, that was just like a given and I obviously, you know, Rich, you and I have talked about this.

You see so many companies out there nowadays where you grow for the sake of growth and they could show zero profitability or even worse negative on the balance or the profit and loss. And it makes no sense to me in the world. So I think that right there, Jonathan, that is an extremely valuable lesson and I'm curious.

Like most journeys have that was a challenge point or a frustration and what did you take from it?

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: Yeah, I tell you what, you know, you do this for 23 years and it and there have been a lot of challenging and frustration points, especially as we started to grow. And, you know, and now I, you know, we primarily do family law here in the Raleigh, North Carolina area and, you know, we started out. You know, my goal was to be criminal defense.

But what was coming to me. Out here in the suburbs were young families that were breaking up who needed divorces, who needed child custody, who needed property distribution. And so I wanted to eat, you know, and I think one thing firms make mistakes on and I very quickly figured out is you need to be, it needs to early on, particularly it needs to be cash and carry.

And so the things that are cash and carry family law, criminal law. Real estate closings, right? These P. I. cases can take 18 months to get paid on. Bankruptcies, if you're in a 13, can take a long time to get paid on. And so I think a lot of firms come out and they say, well, I'm going to be, you know, John Edwards is a very successful personal injury attorney here in North Carolina.

He only does the million dollar cases mainly. So, you know, you have to keep that in mind. You have to be able to figure out where the cashflow is going to come from. And so I use the court appointed list for seven or eight years to have a base cashflow. And I built a family law practice beside it because that's what was showing up and I didn't hate it.

You know, I could deal with the emotions. I like fighting for Children. I like, you know, putting helping families not being completely destroyed, having parents be able to be in their Children's lives. And so, so we really work through that. And then the growth and there's been a lot of bumps and bruises with the growth.

We've had a lot of associates come through here over the years. And you know, we didn't know our numbers prior to you know, really starting to study and get to know Richard James and you MPS we had some general ideas but until we started to really get an ideal of what the numbers were, I had this scarcity mindset, right?

And so I lived in this constant fear that I was going to go out of business. I was not going to be able to pay my mortgage. My wife was going to have to go back to work. I was going to have to lay off the one or two employees I had because I didn't know. I didn't know how many leads I had, how many calls I had.

Because if you're focused on, I got to get a number every month. You're not moving forward. You're that's backwards. And so when you're focused on scarcity, you're not making plans for the future. You're not going forward. And so you're just stuck. And so you have to get unstuck. And the way to get unstuck is through information.

I

Richard James: I, I,

MPS: Wow.

Richard James: wow. I mean, let's just, like, we could just make that an episode.

MPS: That's the clip. There we go, everyone.

Richard James: it. That's it. We've got the cutout. I mean, you know, you, I, Michael will tell you, his brother will tell you that for years, I, I. told him the acronym fear stands for false evidence appearing real, right? But the reality is fear can be healthy.

And so, so let's boil it down. We've got this attorney listening out there like, okay, that's great. And we're not going to teach too much here, but because I don't want it, we're not going to get into the weeds. But if you had to look this attorney in the eye, who's who just like you is like, man, they're scared to death that like that number keeps getting a little bit bigger every month that they have to meet in order to supply their own personal needs and cover the overhead of the firm.

And they don't have any numbers. They're not measuring their leads, their sets, their shows, their hires. They don't know their average client value. They don't know how much money they get down. They don't know the realization rate. They don't know all these things that we now know. Right. anD to get them there is going to be tough.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: I think the first thing is if they don't have a website, they need one. And I think that they also, if they don't have a Google My Business page, and I think they've changed the name of it now, but the Google listing that is free, they need to get that because they have to be findable. I would

Richard James: so on the number, in order to generate leads, you got to be out there as your message, right?

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: and I can't. And I can't, you know, can't tell you how many times I get into a case and there's a lot of lawyers in Raleigh and I don't know them all and they send me something. They're in the case and I'm like, do I know this person? And I Google them and I can't find them.

Richard James: You

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: I can't find their picture. I can't find a website.

Like, I was like, I don't know if I know this person or not. And so, so I think that's important because the other thing is. Yeah. The website will give you how many visitors you have you know, and you can, and Google My Business will give you how many visitors there and how many clicks.

You know, if you're doing any other kind of advertising, you don't get three or four phone numbers. They're really inexpensive and there's a dashboard that call rail has and it doesn't cost that much. And you can go there and see how many phone calls you're getting and where those phone calls are coming from.

There's Ruby receptionist, which has gotten to be more expensive. There's Lex reception who I use, there's answering legal. There are tons of companies out there that will answer the phones. And if you don't have that many calls and they're not getting that many calls, it's less than 500 a month. And that will make a huge difference.

A website, a Google, my business listing and just answering the phone calls. Could possibly double your business in 60 days. We're doing nothing

else.

Richard James: I grew that firm in Phoenix from two guys in a room to three and a half million in a couple of years and people always say, well, how did you do it or whatever? And everything you just said is exactly what we did to the T. I had a 175 Unique tracking numbers by the time was all said and done because 90 percent of our leads came in via the phone.

Like they were using a shotgun approach. We were using a laser beam. I could literally tell you whether the inside cover or the outside back cover of the yellow phone, the yellow pages phone book would convert better. I could tell you what Google AdWords group converted better. I could tell you what newspaper in town converted better.

Now, yeah, is that a little advanced? Of course it was. I didn't go into doing this without knowing a thing or two, right? So I brought that knowledge with me, but that's how we were able to compete. And so to your point, just getting started, start with one phone number. Start with a good website, start with a good tracking system, and make sure your phones are set up to make sure that they're fixed, they're converting, they're answered, my gosh, first and foremost, and that you return the calls that come in.

Michael, we hear this day in and day out because we mystery shop firms all the time, right? And we hear phones that are just not being handled right,

MPS: yeah, just not being handled right. And it literally brings me to a, just a real quick story. We had friends that were painting, getting their house painted, right? That they were doing exterior painting on their house. And I can't explain how low the bar is set. So they're like, Hey, we reached out to about eight people to get quotes to get the house painted, and I was like, oh, cool.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: they're out

MPS: seven, seven of the people you called didn't answer the phone.

Yeah, no, they, and they didn't get back to us. It, I, the bar is set so low, so just like, don't underestimate. Fixing your phones. It's not something to be overlooked. It's so simple in theory. But it's something that's often overlooked. So Jonathan, I just, that was a really big point that you just drove home that makes such a big difference.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: Right. And the fourth thing you can do that doesn't cost very much money is get some sort of client relationship manager program. You know, I started with, you know, I didn't know anything about a CRM or this. So I started with Clio Grow. I use Clio as my back office thing and I started with Clio grow and it did a pretty good job.

80, 85 percent of people aren't going to leave a voicemail. I mean, they're just going to get called the next person on the list, whether it used to be the next person in the phone book. Now it's the next person on the Google 10 pack on the, on whatever Google search they working on

Richard James: just, They just click the next button on their phone. That's all they do. Click the next button on their phone.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: But if they get somebody on the phone, even if it's a virtual receptionist that says, we will call you back and we have your information. They will stop calling because now somebody, because they're in crisis, most people needing lawyers are in crisis. And so they want somebody to help soothe the situation.

And so that's what you can do. And you can get a basic CRM, whether it's Cleo grow, whatever lawmatics has, or something else where you kind of know where the leads are. You know, you're able to follow up with them. You're able to give values to them. You're able to see which advertising is starting to work and what's not working.

You know, and I needed some way to sort of manage them and figure out, you know, I didn't know what positions I needed next. It clearly was outgrowing me and my wife and a secretary. And so, you know, you gave me some pretty good ideas of what I could do and how I could go about doing it. And so then we started implementing and, you know, we got a CRM and we started answering the phones and we started doing things the right way.

We started calling people back and setting appointments and hiring staff and we got, you know, you talk about having a client. Success manager or client relationship manager. I created that position, which has been invaluable. Somebody that his job is just to make sure the clients are happy and following up with them and to build that relationship with them.

Richard James: Well,

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: It's fascinating.

Richard James: They'll cause a whole bunch of other problems that you'll then have to pick, right?

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: right, right.

MPS: Good problems to have.

Richard James: But if you don't have leads, I mean, that doesn't, we don't go anywhere, right? So none of this works without having leads come in the door. So to your point, if they're not generating leads, you need to start there.

If you are generating leads, you need to start answering your phones and tracking. it And yeah, CRM is great. I mean, tech in the legal world has come so far. Back in the day, I said this, I think on a podcast the other day. I mean, I had to put this thing together with like spit and duck duct tape, you know, the old Rube Goldberg me mechanism, right?

MPS: I mean, geez, people's ears must be burning from the fire that's coming from Jonathan right now. I mean,

Richard James: Exactly.

MPS: great. And Jonathan, as if you haven't given enough, I'm curious, you know, what leads on a daily basis, a weekly basis, your success habits, what leads to this continued and sustained success for you?

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: and, you know, I think, you know, we try to get better every day and we're always trying to get better. And we're always trying to figure out how to provide a better service. I mean, really, if you focus on. Client service and providing a good value. You know, we're charging a lot of money for these divorces and custody and all of this stuff, and people need to get value.

I listened to a lot of podcasts. I, of course, I listened to your podcast, other podcasts, but I listened to podcasts for people that are Disney people creating Disney magic with Lee Cockrell is one of my favorite ones. There's a, there was one out there called five star counsel where the guy's an attorney who used to work at the four seasons where you talk about, it's all about customer service and leadership.

Right? And I try to hammer home to the people that work for me is that we're in the customer service business. We're no different than Starbucks or McDonald's or anything else. The decision to buy legal services is the exact same decision. You buy off a motion, you justify later, but people want a service and what people expect, they expect lawyers.

To be Amazon, they click something on their website and it's on their porch in three hours. If they call their lawyer, they expect a call back that day. If they email their lawyer, they're expecting an email back that day. And lawyers just don't do that. And if you could just do that, and it doesn't have to be you.

Are they on drugs? Are they drinking too much? They cheat on their spouses or domestic violence. Are they a narcissist? Whatever it is, but I do control the service they get. For the money they're providing and whether they get an advocate to get the best outcome that is possible based on the facts. And if you do that, that leads to five star reviews, five star rules or reviews are golden in the Google world.

It makes your website show up more. It gives you better rankings and all of that. And that's where it's at. Focus on the customer and the results. I mean, you need results, but if you're focusing on the customer's happy, the results will be there.

As an EAY finalist has been a joy to watch you go through that process as well. So you've certainly reached the top echelon in our world, as far as understanding this and implementing this, and it just seems to be getting better for you. So congratulations to you and all your success. MPS, what do you want to add in before we cut out for today?

MPS: I mean, just terrific value today. I know we've stated that a lot, but seriously this was a very good episode. And there was a lot that you provided everyone. So I appreciate you being willing to share. Your experience, your journey, your lessons, and I guess one final parting question, Jonathan, is what's got you excited?

What's got you fired up today?

And as they've only been here a month, but watching them start to have success, start to help children, the smile on their face. When they come back from court and they know they've helped a child, there's no better feeling than that. And just being able to grow them and grow this team and to continue to provide the level of service that we provide for our clients that we think or feel are far superior to any other level of service in the Raleigh area.

That's what's got me excited is growing this team, letting them grow, helping more children, helping more families. And I just can't wait. I look forward to coming to work every day. Even when it's not always been great and we've had some turnover and stuff like that, it's still mine. I created this.

And now I'm so happy that I can start to give back. I feel like I've learned enough that I can give back to some of the people that helped me and I can help other people. So, and I'm starting my own podcast and I'm looking forward to that. So it's fun. I mean, this is a ton of fun. I, you know, and people are like, I can't believe you do divorce law, but really it's fun because if you focus on the children.

And you focus on providing a good client service. The rest of it takes care of itself. And you know, and maybe in the end you make a little money is why you're doing it as well. So that's kind of, what's got me excited is these new team members and how excited they are and how they want to help children and how I'm going to help them help children.

And it's going to be great.

There's tons of those. And maybe we'll do this again. I got, I got a lot more truth bombs I could drop and you know, but yeah, anybody wants to reach out. I'm an open book about how I did this and it would be glad to help anybody.

Richard James: Yeah, well, you listen to enough podcast, you know, we'll be doing this again. That's just how

MPS: Yeah,

Richard James: To

MPS: yeah.

Richard James: give great value. We want to have more conversations. Michael, you want to bring us home?

Just let them know if there's anything you pulled from this. Let us know what that is. We'll make sure Jonathan sees it, but we appreciate everyone for taking the time to listen today. And Jonathan, once again, thank you for taking the time to join us on here.

Attorney Jonathan Breeden: Hey, thanks for having me anytime.

Richard James: Appreciate it, everybody. That's the pod.