Voices for Unhoused Liberation are folks experiencing homelessness or inadequate housing while organizing their community. Whether its against encampment evictions or the prison like conditions of the Toronto shelter system, these folks are getting things done under incredibly difficult circumstances.

The interview with Dredz Green and Nahum Mann, two community organizers with Voices for Unhoused Liberation, touches on strategy building, the limitations of advocacy work and the need for escalated direct actions. As they describe their lived experience and recent developments, it becomes clear the City of Toronto is actively, and purposely harming the unhoused members of our communities. Under attack, they vow to fight back.

*AUDIO NOTE* at approximately the 1hr mark, there are issues with Dredz audio that lasts about 10 minutes. We opted to not edit this out, so as to not lose any part of his message. There is a transcript available.

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• CBC: Community group calls on city council to impose moratorium on evictions of unhoused people
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• Voices for Unhoused Liberation

Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Welcome folks. Can you introduce yourself to our audience please? Starting with Dredz.

Hi, good day. I'm Dredz. Dredz Green. My 20 years plus of living experience on the streets

between housing, the sidewalk, just the various back and forths that privilege me to be here

today to help advise towards the situations that we're facing. I work with Voices and I

work with various other groups in anti-poverty activism in states and to try and bring awareness

to the homeless condition, the poverty condition in various states. Today, hopefully we get

to highlight the homeless addiction state in the best light that we can. We're absolutely

gonna do that. Thank you, Dreds, for being here. Nahum. Hey, everybody, I'm Nahum. I'm also

one of the organizers. at Voices, and also, yeah, my own lived experience of being on the

streets and in shelters and living in poverty is what drives me in this work too. Thanks

for having us. We're honored to have both of you because although we have spoken about encampment

evictions, homeless evictions, it's... always been from a secondhand perspective. And that

is not the way to do things. So I appreciate the way Dreds introduced himself and that he

would be here to advise us because that is absolutely what we've invited you here to do. And when

I asked what you folks wanted to focus on, the response was quick and concise, homeless evictions.

What do you wanna tell people? There's a lot of things that lead to the... unhoused state

and pretty much everyone that ends up in the unhoused state you'll end up tempted going

to the shelter just a various cycle and when you do take a shot of going to the shelter

um the problem is people don't feel that they're heard and that leads to the cycle people adapting

to being outside so they no longer want to be in the shelter because they've had the help

already and failed them. So they got to living on the streets. And then from there, they're

now harassed to try and do minor things, go into the washroom, trying to function, shower,

getting basic needs met, even mental health needs, things like that, even being heard,

right, as to what needs they may have. So these, the entire state of being unhoused, is very

deconstructive to the mental state of the person who is being victimized and not heard. The

message is always, I believe the message is always brought across wrong by the staff as

to what their duties may be versus engaging and problem solving. So there are a lot of

variables that need there, but the bottom line for me is that I feel that people need to start

being heard on that ground level to start affecting change. We often hear when there's evictions

of the encampments that people go willingly, and it's voluntary. You know, there's, that

is the narrative that the city of Toronto is, clearly that's not always the case. So what

would you prefer the response from the city because you talk about being adapted, adapting

to living inside. And I think, you know, from an outside perspective, we would like to advocate

for housing. That seems like a long-term goal, I know it shouldn't be. So in the immediate,

rather than evicting encampments and harassing, like we can talk about Clarence Square and

the various levels of harassment that goes around tented communities, what could the city be

doing? Other than housing, let's assume housing is always the primary goal. Well, we can still

assume that housing is their bottom line goal for everyone. But now is it throwing everyone

in the first available space that just says available or is it adapting to the needs because

you visited the park three or four times, you've spoken to the worker at the shelter and you

found out that they were familiar with the labor of being adapted to sensitivity, they're escaping

a brand of abuse. All those variables are not taken into consideration. And me being in currently

in Metro Toronto housing, for example, at the point in time where I took it, they were, I

was told if you don't accept the first offer, you won't get another offer for a long time.

So these are now part of the challenges with people getting out. You have to adapt to a

neighborhood that you're completely unfamiliar with. You've got to find the resources that

you can utilize in that area while pretty much being naked to any information. If you're not

a social person, if you already have basic challenges in your life, like I can't read, these things

all need to be considered when people are working with their worker. So even in the shelter,

when people, before people end up in the unhoused, like, tented state, sleeping in the park. They

post rules everywhere that no one relays it in a comfortable fashion. So as soon as someone

disrespects the newly posted rules or outside, but there's no, I guess, humanity towards,

okay, this is a fresh rule. We've got to give people time to adapt any of that stuff. It's

always right to the worst level. And then now as we look at the shelter system as a mimic

of the bigger system, like the justice system, we now say things like when a police officer

shows up, even though they're there to be a peacekeeper, there are no negotiation tools

on their belt. There are cuffs, there are guns, there are tasers, there's everything but something

to negotiate with the people with, all that is force. And that's exactly what I find them

doing in the shelter system. If you don't adapt to their rules, they force you back outside.

And it's worse more so because they've spent. the small windows, the COVID window. They spent

the years saying they're adapting these programs to help make transitional shelters to get people

out from outside of the park. And now it's five years later, hotels are shutting down, but

now the expenses of living day to day is so much. People don't have time to ask where their

money's going. Right? What's happening with these programs? Why am I seeing tents back

in the park? Right? Just to even ask questions, if you're a concerned citizen, I've seen people

getting arrested in the park and citizens have come by and told the cops that they can't do

that and they're recording and they threaten the citizen with arrest for being a witness.

So it's almost like you're not allowed to stand up for it. If they can get away with it, they

will. Right? This is, I feel this is a part of the reason there are no... I guess under

house bodies within the decision making portions of where the money goes, when they're trying

to figure out what to do with encampments, anything like that. Because if their interest wasn't

played anywhere, you would have someone from the community trying to overhaul or pull up

at the table to say what the needs are. One of our current examples would be Trinity. Right

now they're in need of a porta potty, a stall. and all the restaurants in that downtown core

area are closed before they say seven. Usually I've seen it nine, but they say it's seven.

So from seven until a drop in opens again at seven or six in the morning, there is no access

to a washroom for them. And when trying to negotiate with the city workers that are coming by, no

one wants to listen to them. This is contributing to keeping it clean until they can be housed.

Yeah, and I also just wanted to add too that like, I mean, this is us like, It's like a

carceral system of housing, right? Like, I mean, it's essentially just like warehousing poor

folks, whether that's in the encampments or the shelters, the hotel programs, and you know,

as Dredz is mentioning, even Toronto County Housing, you're in these buildings, in these

spaces that are like severely neglected. in terms of maintenance, just in terms of like

healthy, dignified living, mold, bed bugs, mice, all of these things. And then under like a

constant surveillance, with cameras around, with more security than there are actual workers

to provide essential services, like a constant presence of police. And like just kind of living

under this threat, like Dredd's mentioned of like, if you don't follow the rules, you know,

like you're gonna be punished. And we're seeing this like, you know, I think it's probably

at its most severe in the hotel shelters that were leased through the pandemic. We do outreach

at the Delta Hotel. up at Kennedy in the 401. You have like 350 people in a building with

two housing workers at best. Sometimes both of them aren't even there. With security and

police in the lobby constantly and with this system of, and we'll get into more of what

we mean by evictions in the shelter hotels, but this system of living under threat of eviction

constantly for anything from speaking up for yourself or staff not liking the tone of your

voice when you talk to them to one of our members got kicked out of a city run shelter for eating

in the TV room. Just a... an arbitrary and abusive set of reasons to force people back out onto

the street. So we're like against, you know, we're all for housing, all for public housing,

like let's build more, but not the way it stands, you know, not neglected derelict buildings

under constant surveillance. We want dignified housing, accessible housing, right? Immediately.

what comes to mind is when you talk about like the sheer number of security, it's like that,

well, that money that they're using to pay for the security could be going to actually helping

the people instead, right? It's, it's a very easy parallel to draw. Nahum, last time I saw

you, we were at the St. Stephan and the Fields Encapment Eviction in Kensington Market. I'm

heading over there this Monday because Maggie was just, Maggie the Reverend of the Church

was just talking about some continued city harassment there and you know there's still very much

people living on that property, a church that protects them, that wants them there, that

helps them and yet the city decides that no it's not okay for them to be there. Can you

tell me a bit about you know that continued hurt, from what you know of like... the tactics

that the city uses to continue harassing people, even when it's not as far as an eviction, just

like in the smaller things that we don't get a chance to hear about. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

you know, one thing that I think's a common thread across all the encampments, like now

and in the past, is this idea of fire safety. Fire gets constantly used as this reason for

why we need to mass evict. these spaces, but there's no, I'm blanking on the name of the

ruling, but there was like a ruling in the courts that set some precedent around how the city

should and the fire department should actually be present, training people, providing fire

safety equipment, providing safe alternatives. So you know, you think like people are starting

fires, they have maybe little propane tanks to cook on, things like that. And the city

just comes in, the fire department just comes in and confiscates things, harasses people.

I mean, at the worst kind of examples, like clears the camp, but there's no alternatives,

right? I mean, like, I think there would be... probably some positive reception to being like,

okay, look, you can't have this propane tank. You know, it's deemed a fire safety hazard.

And so instead, like we got these heaters that we've like, we've cleared as a fire department,

like they're safe or, you know, plugins to city power, which is what folks at the Trinity Square

encampment are dealing with. They're trying to plug in. to city power, which has been on

all winter to plug in 10 million Christmas lights near the Eaton Center. But God forbid you plug

in a little space heater to try and keep warm in the winter. And the city, the police, the

fire department, they come in unplugging people's cables and actually at Trinity Square, like

the city escalated to actually just like shutting. those outlets off, like the power is not even

there anymore. But without alternatives, right? And so now you put people in a position where

they're trying their best to keep warm in the safest way possible. What's the logical next

step? I mean, people are gonna start fires, they're gonna light candles in their tents.

They're gonna find any kind of way to keep warm and to keep fed. And it's just like a total

neglect from the city to the point where folks actually, there is these really cool like fire

safety manuals that got made from folks like Greg Cook at Sanctuary and some others who

just put in that research and the work to publish things. And they're the ones actually doing

the training. They did this down at Clarence Square last year. Oh, you got it right in your

hand. I was making a note of it. There you go. Yeah, so it's just like that same old story

of the city having these high bars for what an encampment can and can't have, but then

providing zero resources, and it's down to folks like us. It's down to... poor folks, unhoused,

underhoused folks that are like spending full time hours week in, week out in community just

trying our best to pull resources together and keep people safe in a city that has like such

an abundance of wealth and resources at its fingertips. So to kind of speak into that a

little.

When we're talking about alternatives, it literally means if you come and take the propane tank

that is sold over the counter in Canadian Tire, various stores in Chinatown, serious convenience

stores, and I can get that anywhere, but you can take that and not provide any alternatives,

then it's going to be minus 10, minus 20 outside. And your alternative is to move me completely.

even if I have a bunch of stuff, the city doesn't try to have any brand of negotiation plans.

So there's not a secret plan with public storage. And the City of Toronto, so if you're unhoused

and you have a certain amount of stuff, they'll deal with you with the storage if you go to

a shelter, for example. That alone should be a fair enough, safest deal. That's encouraging

to take a shelter in. and probably uphold the rules there, for example. And that's within

their cost. If you wanna do something like heating, and it's outside, I don't know if you guys

remember those old black barbecues that were always in parks, they were on the black pole,

they could do a solid iron. But you have just blocks of those, no tent within like 20 feet

of it, but people can come around and eat, now you have a reason to have a security guard

there. So his job being paid by the city is to now watch that eater. So it's on 24-7. He

needs fuel oil, radio for it, so it will come with sticks. These are the kind of alternatives

they can offer so that people won't have a propane tank inside when they wanna get heat, or a

bunch of people gathering around that barbecue outside to see the group, 20 people in the

encampment. are going to be able to that many people that are very simple, cost effective

measures that they have within their grasp. It's not something they would have to build.

They already have those. They probably have to extract somewhere sitting on the part of

the city. Or they can just put that cement block underneath it in each area. Maybe one of the

north and south of our garden, for example, again, where people are tented. It's not in

the means of. even within the city is going to be themselves. So we're going to say we're

not trying to encourage people being outside. It's not encouraging until you find the right

housing plan for them, help make outside somewhat functional. Help teach them about fire safety,

have a regular garden circulation and cleanup, and then teaching them about being community-esque.

And these are the things that. to help people not keep the NIMBY effect. I say, hey, those

guys look intense, but they're functioning. Like my dog runs over and plays with them.

They're all cool people. Just little simple things. So now the person's still gonna feel

intimidated if they can't use the part. Becoming a visual appeal or how it may work on the video.

That's amongst other things. And it was sheltered under a similar bias as well. So we watched

that happen way out there at Delta. There were some people that do walk by and they ask what's

happening, but now there's a lot of genetics happening. It was very hard to get people to

just stop and intake the real things that were happening inside and to be people in the area.

All right, to help work with them as a community. So... It's like, hey, some people work here

and they do want a room and they want to get themselves together. These guys aren't helping

them out. Their worker doesn't see them. So as Ney and Liz said earlier, there's 350, 400

people and only two workers. Even at the 365 day a year thing, if you're working every day,

you might see half of those people once. So just to speak more into it. It's getting plans

together from the ground, the tentative level, to the shelter level, all allocated towards

housing and improvement. And getting more actual counselors that can be reflective, responsive

in their craft, immediate, on-site. And I know it's a challenge, but if it takes money to

encourage that kind of pay, then they should do it, instead of spending it on security.

and the security guard, and the police. And the evictions themselves, even denying folks

all of the things that you're talking about likely cost the city money, and they cost the

community. Like you're talking about parks, public washrooms, like barbecues, fire safety

knowledge. things that you want everyone in your community to have, like regardless of

what their shelter system is, like things that make a thriving community, like even the anti-homeless

architecture, where there's no benches or the benches are awful, you can't lie down on them.

All of those are detriments to the entire community. And so when you look at it from that perspective,

it's so maddening because then it's so clearly an attack, specifically. on the unhoused community

to deprive the entire community of these items simply because it might sustain their life

outside. Because it's ridiculous that anyone is encouraging people to live at the tentative

level, right? That no one would be encouraged to do that. That is, like you said from the

very beginning, a circumstance people find themselves in because of the systems that we're living

under, right? It's not a choice in that way, right? That's a ridiculous statement that they

would say to deprive that and our whole community loses. It's funny that the podcast is actually

called The Good, The Bad, and The Disruption because even as I look around Delta, I see

the death by design. So we see about 10, 15 condos out there. There's no new mall, there's

no new school, there's no new grocery store. Those condos are all like 20 stories plus.

And even as they all get filled, you're adding that many families to the community and stressing

the resources that are there, driving that food prices everywhere. Because now they're gonna

ram the lettuce every hour once those condos are filled. Right? Whoever can't afford it,

they're gonna go and steal it, they're gonna start saying, hey, my kid's gotta eat. stuff

like that. Right? So you see the destruction of being built. They're not building any of

those at the shelters. All those are condos. So it's just going to raise competition. Oh,

we don't want this here. Now there's going to be more people in Texas when it hits that unaffordable

level. And none of the safeties are there that people think are there in a shelter, for example,

that they're outside in a tent. Oh shit. as we still have these people. Like, this is the

kind of thing that wakes them up. And I think too, Jess, to your point, like, it is very

intentional. Like, capitalism and neoliberalism, like, needs poor and homeless people as a,

like, as a threat that keeps everybody working three bullshit. jobs at minimum wage without

health care, without benefits, grinding away to pay rent because there's this very like

visual, you know, like uncomfortable threat of like living in a park and living in a shelter,

being like seen as somebody who's like panhandling or wandering out every day in the streets because

you know a lot of these shelters too. the congregate ones, you know, you eat your breakfast and

then like you're out. You have to be out all day, right? And so our system, I like, requires

this level of poverty and precarity to keep people like tied into this wage system. And

so yeah, it is absolutely intentional. and very specific and targeted on our community to keep

this visual problem alive and well, even if it is also causing the kind of rifts and deterioration

in the broader community like you brought up. It's all by design. I know that. And I don't

mean to say like, don't tell me that, but I mean, I didn't say it because I didn't think

any of you knew it either. It almost then brings me... to the point of, okay, so then what?

Now you know those fuckers are doing it on purpose, right? Like we could go talk to them, we could

go talk to Toronto council, but they know they're doing it on purpose. Olivia knows all the small

town, big town mayors, they absolutely know what the purpose behind all of these denials

are of basic stuff. Like even the most basic stuff, like what kind of city, you want a shining

city, but we are so bad, we have no public bathrooms. Everyone knows, anyone who's ever wandered

around the city for any reason knows that we are an awful city for that. And so all of these

things, all of these things, they know that they're just really purposely to do harm. And

so I think of that poster you folks had for the Valentine's Day event outside City Hall.

And I know you were outside City Hall, but I know you weren't really speaking to them. I

mean, you are. You should yell at them. They deserve it. But you know where their mind is

at. It was the Poor People Rise Up that was featured on the poster that really comes to

mind because that's what we need. Right? Like, we do need to center— That isn't to dispute

that we need to center the voices of unhoused folks when we're trying to talk about solutions,

all of them. But not to, like—they shouldn't have to, like, tell their trauma. Right? Like,

that shouldn't be necessary. Not to politicians, because they fucking know it. They like that

seems like harmful almost. So it's just like absolute rebellion at this point. I'm sorry.

That seems so rudimentary, but let's talk about the organizing then. Not because we don't want

to hit on these lived experiences, but like, what do we do? Because in a city like this,

where you should have some leverage on a mayor with like progressive issues, surely we can

make progress here. That's part of the biggest challenge with the unhoused community, right?

There is not even entering the shelter and you don't have really any leverage. There's somebody

in their installation coming to ask for help. Like, when you're paying rent at an apartment,

for example, you're not getting money. They're not doing that. That's right, you're paying

a full rent. So same thing at work. You cross in the trees there, you can strike. Now he's

not making as much. That kid's not going out. All right, we're in the shelter. They build

few beds and keep like 10,000 people out there making it to 580,000 because the shelters will

always be full. They'll always take things, they'll take XYZ years. If something, if a

riot happens tonight, they'll have a new task force tomorrow, they'll come to the police,

I guarantee you.

Right? So, so why can't we use that money to produce the positivity production, preserving

the people, right? Getting solutions done. We want more people working, for example, to be

taxed. Let's help people get settled and then make sure that there's jobs out there for people.

Right? Get some people with lived experience to start getting paid for, living in their

community and contribute. And that could cut the travel expense and it could also positively

impact the community.

I'm just a volunteer at social assistance and do this in a small range of training programs.

Those training programs get you into somewhere that's 100% employable. Yes, otherwise it's

a game. Because it shows that there's a need for those programs, even if they don't employ

you. You finish the program at 15 minutes, the social assistance says you can get employed

now because you have that 5-D skill. Show me where to get employed with three months of

training. I have my African utility to do it. Require two years worth of mastery shift or

XYZ license with two years of professional. They have reference. Like, it's a game up there.

It's a big game. And that's when you try to play it the honest way. You play it the dirty

way, you get arrested. And then you... lose everything and you just don't got to start

over anything and be outside.

Right? You just don't want to insure. So it's not like you're tied down or you're doing so

much work. You're doing the same thing I said. You're doing a free job. You barely get time

to see your kids to give them any positive influence that you would like. You might be there answering

the bases that you might want to be there to play catch. Right? As if some life things.

You might want to contribute to your health, because that's the challenge you're dealing

with. It's a lot, maybe play around with it. They have a bell, let's talk, for example.

During the entire COVID, I've never seen a bell talk representative walk around the park and

check on any of the depressed people that weren't in the park. That's a corporate response, I

think. So that's part of what's advertised, that's not real. It's funny how, you know,

capitalism has this myth of like voluntary, like we, that we get to choose this idea of

freedom that you get the, well, if you want this, you can go on this path, this path, but

then you hear, you hear that and it's, it's all coercion is what it is, right? That here

are your options and either way we're going to exploit you. It's a horrible system. Nahum,

one of the times I saw you before the Kensington one was at City Hall, John Tory budget meeting.

And I remember you and a bunch of folks were there specifically to talk about the lack of

any help in the budget front house, folks. Well. John Tory's gone, Olivia Chow's here. We've

had another budget meeting and there's still not enough.

What's it is it? What's the answer here? Because clearly we elected a person who's supposed

to do something better, right? Yeah, I mean I think that and you know also to touch on

this like talk about the organizing right like I think that There are a lot of complications

like dreads sad just in terms of like what are our leverage points as poor and unhoused folks

But I think Olivia Chow is a great example. Personally, I don't think that there's too

much to benefit in getting into the weeds on criticizing any one person or another in positions

of power, but more so just a very clear example that the system's not. going to save us, right?

And like, when we kind of like lean on these advocacy approaches, which we also see it in

like the labor movement, right? Over the last like, how many decades? Like moving away from

direct action, flexing that muscle of power through like strikes and into this idea that

like, oh, like we can just like meet with politicians in boardrooms and like they'll pass better

policies. I think we're actually in this kind of time right now as well, right? Like people

are realizing, um, especially at like the, I call them chapters cause we are kind of building

towards thinking of like what a, a union or like a member based org of poor and unhoused

folks. would look like the realities they're facing is like, we're gonna get kicked out

regardless, right? You know, the Delta for instance, is being transitioned into a refugee shelter

and we're already seeing this uptick in service restrictions like discharges from the hotel

program, which we call evictions, cause they're evictions, right? And put all the flowery non-profit

language around it as much as you want. You're evicting people from their homes, right? And

so there is that fear of like getting kicked out of the retribution, the coercion, but also

just the reality, this growing reality that like you're gonna get kicked out, right? And

so, you know, like kind of, Going back into those traditions of organizing in thinking

about the fact that, while 400 residents to two housing workers is shitty for so many reasons,

it also is empowering in the sense that we are the majority in this space, right? And as we

individualize people at Voices, we do a lot of casework and kind of advocating for folks

who face evictions and, you know, really try to pressure the service providers to like appeal

those decisions and let people back in. Like it's also about like collectivizing, right?

Collectivizing that struggle, taking up space, taking ownership of the spaces that people

are living in. And so, you know, at the Delta, we're having organizing meetings. We're really

taking a lot of lessons and kind of models from more historical union organizing to identify

leaders, like finding those people who have trust in the community, finding those activists

in the shelters, and starting to think about like... What are the tactics at hand, right?

I think often when we're in conversations, folks have these really intense emotional responses.

I'm just gonna push my bed in front of the door and not let staff in. And when they come to

us with that idea, like they're, it's kind of like. wrapped around this sense that they have

that like, oh, that's like, I'm just angry, you know, like that's like, that's not actually

doable. And I think it's really important to change that narrative, like something that

we do in our conversations is like, is it not doable? Or like, or are we like not at the

place in which that's like a tactic, right? And I'm not necessarily saying that that's

here or there, like anything that's being planned explicitly, but I think it is really about

like reframing those conversations to say like, yeah, you know what? At the end of the day,

we've tried all the other things, right? Like we've tried to ask nicely, we've sent letters,

we've had a petition to city council. and the mayor to stop service restrictions, to stop

camp clearings. And like we're met with the same thing. We're actually met with, like in

the midst of us launching that campaign, No Homeless Evictions campaign, shortly after

the St. Stephen's eviction, the city put trespass notices on all the tents at the Trinity Square

encampment, right? And so... It's not only that they're not listening to our maybe more diplomatic

approaches to find solutions, but they like they double down on the very harms, right,

that are causing us to take these steps. You know, the delta is being transitioned. There's

rumors going around that the Bond Hotel is going to mass evict everybody. from their beds there,

you know, Clarence Square, the hotels like across the city facing this sorts of things. So, you

know, I think as scary and as unknown as it is, because like this kind of organizing and

like mass mobilization hasn't really happened so much. There aren't very many like super

clear examples of people taking action in this way. Like we are as voices, like, in this space

of entertaining, like, oh, wait, well, what does that look like? And as impossible as it

might feel to take mass action, to mass mobilize in a space, let's instead ask ourselves a question

of, like, what do we need to be able to do that? Right? And what are the steps that we take

people on that go from where we are today to some kind of mass action? at a hotel. And so,

you know, petitions are like a great entry point. You know, at the Delta, there's some very,

what we feel are kind of like low hanging fruit things that most folks in the program agree

on and can get behind. And like taking people up this ladder of engagement and some might

say like ladder of risk in terms of organizing. that like get us these small wins, but less

so the wins and more these like feelings that people have that when we work together, when

we organize together, that we can make victories, right? And so something as small as one of

our first victories at the Delta was getting every shelter in Toronto is supposed to have

a monthly resident meeting. Right? And the Delta operated for two fucking years without a single

meeting. And so we were able to collect, shout out to a fantastic organizer at the Delta who

was able to collect like 150 signatures on a petition, deliver that petition, and now we

have these monthly meetings, right? I mean, those meetings are shit. They're... poorly

managed. All meetings are shit, don't worry. There's no minutes, there's no notes, there's

no follow up. But we got that, right? And people have this taste of like, oh, we did something

together and got it. So now come back to the table to say, what's next? Okay, we're gonna

make those meetings a little bit better, right? Then we're gonna start to think about what

are our real tangible demands, putting those demands forward. And one other thing I wanted

to talk about in terms of the organizing we're doing too is like building these bridges between

labor, right? Between the workers' struggle and poor people's struggle, not only for the

just reason of like solidarity and like labor should be supporting like these social justice

issues. but also for the fact that workers are sleeping in their fucking cars, right? Workers

are accessing food banks. And when we look at the Delta, for instance, run by Homes First,

is a charity that runs lots of spaces across the city. In 2015, they locked out all their

fucking workers because they were trying to unionize. And what are they doing now? They're...

creating like very tailored exploitative contracts to hire folks who are incredibly precarious

lots of newcomers Lots of poor folks putting them in these contracts that don't give them

benefits that don't give them job security and I mean as much as like we fight against the

abuses that unhoused folks face from shelter staff like We also have to be able to take

a step back and say, well, if shelter staff are not trained, not resourced, living in super

precarious situations with no job security and no benefits, like what do we expect other than

these like high tension points where staff default to kicking people out when things get tense?

when they're faced with situations that they're just like completely untrained and unresourced

and unprepared to deal with. And so it's OPSU workers at the, at Homes First, at the Delta.

And we learned that they actually are like in bargaining, had to bring in the Ministry of

Labor because 90% of their workers rejected the deal from Homes First. So these are places

of of solidarity that we're trying to build. They just had a really awesome meeting yesterday

with quite a lot of unions and labor organizations to start to build those things because we wanna

join you on the picket, right? And we want you to join us on our pickets because at the end

of the day, it's these, just like in the corporate wage world, it's these fucking corporations,

these charities. that are dead set on their bottom dollar on building a level of like management

and executive positions that are well comfortable and stable and secure at the complete exploitation

and disregard of poor folks, whether they're living in the shelter or working in the shelter.

And so those are some of the things that we're talking about as well. at Trinity Square, you

know, it's about moving the needle, right? We've seen encampment defense, and I think that was

very powerful and galvanizing for folks. But like, let's move the needle into like, not

just being reactionary, not being on the defense, but being on the offense. Let's take spaces.

Let's own them. Let's build the kind of like... you know, infrastructure that people want and

need to live dignified lives until that the housing that Dreds was talking about gets delivered

to them. So I think we're in a place of seeing like so much precarity in the city and that

precarity creeping so much more into like what we might've called like middle class people

in the past that The time is now, right? I think we need to just be kind of rooted in the reality

that like, shit's bad, shit's getting worse. And so the risks and the fears we might feel

in taking action, you know, are wrapped in the context that like, things aren't gonna get

any better, right? And whether it's today or in six months or in a year, you might actually

be forced into some kind of like, risk taking, action taking, because the boot is just like

pressing on our necks harder and harder day in and day out. Jess, I feel like you got it.

You're burning with a question over there. I wanted to, okay, Santiago came into the studio

one day and he was frustrated. He's looking at me going through. That happens constantly,

so I just give you anything. Okay, he's like, which time? There was an Acampment eviction

that... people, some people had responded to in body, right, in person. And I think there

was an itching by those that had responded to physically resist the eviction. But that's

not their call, right? They are coming because they were called, but not for that. And when

you asked earlier, you know, and talked about the lack of leverage and you said, what would

be our leverage? Like my notes, I go numbers, right? And you hit on that, I'm not telling

you anything new at all. Labor and other, like the rest of the community needs to come together

in a way that you can breach that threshold where you can safely physically resist. Cause

I get it, if it's just a handful of people and you've got to defend a space, open wide park,

I mean, just the logistics, if you're thinking of like battle plants, that's probably not

going to end well. It's that... that critical threshold of numbers. And I'm really happy

to hear that, you know, there's movement being made in terms of labor because there's really

two ways, because you talk about spending your days and nights really doing a mutual aid as

well, like scrounging together resources for whoever needs what. So not only can they play

a role in terms of boosting numbers, but there's... there's some resources that folks, that I imagine

would make your job a lot easier because part of organizing when poor and unhoused is like

energy time. If that's all spent trying to survive and to get the basic stuff that should already

be there. like meetings, you know, if you're having to spend all of your energy just to

get what you've already been told you're supposed to have and other basic necessities, that's

less time you could be spent doing more resistive, more proactive organizing, right, to put you

on the offense. Because it's actually, it's so doable to take a building. It's so doable.

You don't even actually need that many people. You just, you need allies that perhaps the

police aren't willing to remove as easily. You know, Fred Hawn, perhaps chained to the front

door would have a different impact, I'm sure. And actually, like, I just, just to build on

that too, because I'm from Colombia originally. And one thing you see in Colombia is,

You have neighborhoods, barrios, typically on hillsides, that don't technically exist. Like

they're not, these are not planned areas, there were no approval processes. But people who

were displaced, because we're an incredibly displaced country, and who had nowhere to go,

came together with brick and plaster. And they built thousands. of tiny houses and they live

in these communities. Something like that is unheard of here in Canada, right? When we tried

to build tiny houses out of, I forget the word. Some municipalities won't even let you build

a tiny house. Yeah, the tiny houses that they tried to use in Alexandra Park and whatnot,

those got removed, right? But the idea is if you hit. with like the right resources, with

the right planning, we don't have to wait for the country, the city, the province, whatever

it is to come in and give us solutions, we can just do it ourselves.

Anyways, it's just one, because like that idea is so foreign, right? And like even like in

my home city of Bogota, we have a... in our largest park in the middle of the city with

an encampment that's been there for years full of indigenous folks that they wouldn't dare

touch because they know that it's untouchable, right? Because people there are organized different.

It is a matter of numbers, a matter of resources. These things are doable. But anyways, just

to add on to Jess's point. take up any more space there. But like just that idea of integrating

into the community though, like when Dreads was talking about the person walking the dog,

it was such an anecdote but it spoke to a larger problem, right? That these parks are surrounded

by people in homes. People who should give a fuck. Right? When their community members are

being harassed by the police, take their propane heaters taken away, like, that resistance doesn't

have to only come from inside, from the tent level. It shouldn't. And, like, if you knew,

right, if you walked your dog every day and said, good morning to Dredz, and then you saw

the police harassing him, like, because you know he is part of your community, right? It's

the separation that, that's why I kind of made a face to it, and I was talking about the barrios.

I get it, like, you know, housing is, but then that's still like an ostracization. It's still

like, that's its own community. And like, maybe that's the necessary, right? But. Finding ways

to get people to understand that those are, that's their community too. Not just, and I

use that language too, the unhoused community, fucking language. It's really a struggle, but

it matters because it's how you think about it. Like as though it's a separate community.

It's not, right? And that separation is denying them the leverage they need to get like the

most basic stuff, like forget housing. the most basic stuff is being denied because they know

that the fuss isn't that much when it's denied. We don't make a big enough deal about some

of these things. And I think because they're not looked at as a whole. You know, like public

bathrooms. If you talk about public bathrooms, people just roll your eyes. Like, there's so

many bigger problems out there. Why are you talking about public bathrooms? That's not

a big deal. Why are you talking about benches? Why are you talking about fire retardant tents?

It's like each individual just seems like not—but it's— as this whole, right? It's like this,

I don't know. I'm really struggling, I think, to formulate my thoughts. Yeah, but I think

that, I know Dreads, I wanna let Dreads jump in just one second, but I think you're absolutely

right, and this is also maybe a place for people that are listening that wanna think about how

to support this kind of work too, right? It's like, somebody does need to be, Dreads was

talking about all the condos up around the Delta Hotel, right? Like, Um, it's the sea counselor

in that ward, Nick Mantis, um, he's pretty dead set on like closing, right? Like the whole,

the whole reason the Delta is being transitioned to a refugee center is because, is because

of him, right? Like, um, moved a motion to kind of tweak the, the vote to renew all the hotels.

He said, well, we'll renew the Delta as long as It gets transitioned to a refugee center

and everyone gets kicked out basically. And, you know, I've worked in politics enough to

know that he probably feels informed by like a bunch of condo owners, right, that are calling

and complaining. And those condo owners are the people that are voting for him, right?

And so I think like, yeah, we actually do need some crews of canvassers that are gonna...

going and have like probably pretty shitty conversations, but like to talk and listen to folks and like

find that space to build connection, to build some empathy. I mean, if you're not facing

housing precarity yourself, like I bet you your kid is, right? I bet you there's someone you

know who like is realizing that they can't live in this city anymore. Right, and so like that

is also kind of unsexy work that needs to happen because if the city councilor starts getting

a bunch of phone calls from people on his voting list saying, I just had some a really awesome

conversation and you need to keep the Delta open, this is crucial. Like that is definitely

gonna change his mind more than like me and Dreads who are. kind of typecast as like shit-disturber,

lefty activists. Like he doesn't care about us. So that's like another kind of really foundational

piece that, you know, we talk about this, we talk about defunding the police. Like, yeah,

we can get all the progressive folks in the city together to sign a petition to defund

the police. Like we need like white middle-aged homeowners central Etobicoke to be calling

their councillor and saying, yeah, actually we need to defund the police. Because those

people don't care about anything except their re-election bid in the next cycle. And the

only damn thing that's going to move them is if they're looking and going like, oh, this

is Jessa, they're on my voting list, they vote for me every four years, and they're telling

me... that this thing needs to happen, like that is now actually like a risk to me and

my job and the power that I hold, right? And we've seen that like historically in Georgia,

like flipping from Republican to Democrat, we've seen like the overthrowing of like anti-trans

legislation in Florida, all from the same thing. Like I said, it's not sexy work, right? That's

like a 20 minute conversation at the door with somebody who probably doesn't have the same

political views as you. And you have to make some space and listen and put your reactionary

self aside and put the stats aside and connect with people. Get into that feeling and that

emotion because I believe that that's what. moves people on a deeper level than me just

saying like, well, the stats here show that like you're wrong. Like that's not gonna move

anybody, right? So anyways, just wanted to throw that in and Dredd say, you haven't chatted

in a while, so I wanna toss it over to you. I just feel one of the biggest challenge is

the consistency of quality resource, even though it doesn't work so. Even when we're there doing

outreach, one of the main questions we had for a minute was, everyone wanted to know the lawyer

thing, right? So they wanted to know who they could talk to if they had a human rights situation.

So even council just regularly appearing for that, a volunteer, a student, something to

kind of encourage along the way. Like, if you're going to have people coming in there, the security

guards or whatever. Baby's close my baby sort of thing. So you might as well have some people

there that are trying to follow themselves and other career paths I think kind of inspiring

to go towards their Their mastery their community It's just saying whatever Right different brands

of agency government Earlier they were talking about some of the games that the city plays.

So just to show it's on the multi-level. Oh, well, I was in the park. There was an ex-police

officer that ended up working for the city and helping to clear encampments. And they ended

up walking around and spying on us for like two weeks. So we ended up taking pictures of

them before they came and cleared people one by one out of the park. So that was one example

of the one that Mayam was talking about that was for Tridy Square. And so the eviction notices

the week after the Spadina and the college encampment, when we investigated that one as a follow-up,

I forgot what Mayam was doing, but the city said that they... didn't mean it, they did

it to try and teach, show an example or a lesson as to what they could do if they really wanted

to, like something to that effect. And it was really, to me that's really ignorant. With

all the education and power and what you're paid to do and the amount of problems that

people have in the city, if you have time to grasp what people are on paper with an example.

There's just too many different little... pads around the labor, just getting bad at it, despite

that they want to try and show. Right, there's anywhere from the Olympic bid, for example,

when they made Pan Am the labor. There's as old as Penn City, if people remember, there

was the Occupy protest, no matter how big it gets. They'll literally tell you to pack up,

go somewhere, but we'll do something. They don't want to make positive change in the fact that

child balance has to scale. It's almost like they need to upkeep their payouts to make people

who are working and see like they're paying the taxes and their taxes are going to go.

And it really sucks that they just won't stop in the few years they always put things in

their mouth without expecting a seizure. save the people. They're not expecting, at some

point, though, the scales to be balanced. They'll show things, for example, like Vespa, no matter

how blind she is, that scales are going to be balanced. I look in front of City Hall, for

example, and I have a new courthouse right beside it, and it has a balance being with a lamb

and a lion on it.

But now the scale just looks else. It is hard to try and get them to be fair at their own

game. And they have the advantage in their role. They can't see the game towards helping people.

I believe. I was in a better, better state. I lied about it just long enough to make sure

that when the new mayor came in, now a whole bunch of other cases. But it's very easy if

you've made marijuana legal, for example. But you didn't make overall people's lives easier,

so there's a lot of jobs that still consider you a drug dealer. There's some you can get

without cover. There's a lot of jobs that still consider you a drug dealer. So you can't get

past certain statuses, so.

Right? Well, each job you do, you need a coping mechanism, as a natural path medicine to help

people steer away from other things, these treatments. Right? Some people in the shelter could use

that support. So they've been giving needles for years, bowls for years. I mean, they've

been giving needles for like 20 years. They've been giving needles since Pearson, for free

outside. Okay? And they will not give you... $5.00 bag of weed that's really cheap. You

can go to a native store, get a pack of $50. Have a finger cap to that box of units. You

can't leave your own gatekeeper or natural path and it'll be your option, anything like that.

Right, there's people on the DOLADA program, for example. And if you do anything involved,

you can get caught selling it, whatever, get arrested. They put you on methadone and jail

and you'll be on the program. People are on the program. They get 28 pills per day, despite

any other medication you're doing. You're expected to do those 28 pills. That's keeping you on

the system. They're willing to keep you on that system. Can't see your medication, any sharpness

drug mark, you end up throwing air, your shelter changes. Why can that not be part of your medical

and housing plan? You're in a wellness plan. So we know the housing and the pharmacy is

familiar with something that's not the ASAP. None of that becomes an option. Okay, you're

working, let's hope you have a say in your value. But what if you get a reference? So what if

you get a case and you just go there? That's it. There will only be a reference to say,

yeah, she went there, you were a good tenant. And that's it. Not to be extra, like, Oak Ridge

out there or any of that stuff. Nope, they were good tenants. But we heard challenges where

people had gotten their houses and workers and messed it up for 10, 15 years on a maintenance.

And a new worker is supposed to help them get out. We were hearing that as recently as yesterday's

episode. So. There's a lot of points where they rather abuse the power that help you get in

what they should be having in every shelter. Regular needles, if not manual, are kind of

bored in that area. The Metro Toronto housing in each area, finding a way to bypass the red

page since most people that are unhoused have problems with their ID. You use their police

documents, their medical documents, their medical records. with the bypass that they take to

look at the house, right? Help people who are mentally and well-housing their hospitals.

So now you can have medical programs that include the buildings that are around it. It's very

easy, right? A few little shuffles, they'll say everything's a test. Nothing's a test.

It's a little shuffle that already exists, right? That includes property and everything. Anything

you don't wanna build on, you wanna build a mall on it later, sorry, but it's a modular

housing, I tell you, build a mall on it. to all those people in modular housing that were

building across the street that's gonna house them permanently. Very easy. I still remember,

it's a story I tell a few people actually. There was a gentleman that was building some steps.

He built some steps, I think, over in Hyde Park. And it ended up costing him $1,000 in cement.

He wrote the government about it. They told him it cost $100,000. They told them to take

it down and they spent like seven thousand or eight thousand on it. They don't go the same

steps. But the old man built himself, he didn't know what to speak, he didn't see when they

needed a solution. So this is equally in favor of things like Kaleo. Right? Use his resources,

don't make extra time, there's nothing to do. That's allowed to resolve problems, made a

cross-effective solution, it won't be costing anybody anything. And then there's time and

trends. resources and skills and many as part ordered and not build anymore. Please help

me keep that. and they ordered him to not do that. The city is helping people, does this

make sense? Would you not have this person transition as going to teach each person how to do it?

And say, listen, if you find a safe piece of land, you can build this as a module as it.

You can get a ticket number. Now there's security on the lot.

like there's so many things that you don't say about the police is million dollars like you

build a rocket, send some money overseas and there's nothing wrong with being nice along

with others but you're not going to carry home well either. That's why I hate the like cost

benefit analysis argument even because at this point everyone probably knows that it's actually

cheaper to house people than to deal with all of the things that we're talking about, like

all of these layers of bureaucracy and shelter systems and enforcement and surveillance and

permits and I mean it's endless the work that goes into being awful to poor folks and it

would be cheaper to not but there's just such purpose. behind it, right? It's not driven

even by a cost benefit analysis and it's not driven by any kind of ethical code because

it's completely unethical. So that's what makes it so frustrating. And when, Naeem, you talked

about organizing and having those difficult conversations. It needs to get done. My only

thing that I wanted to like yell at you is like, okay, but I would rather the counselor just

fear that we would take it and like I don't even care what they think about their jobs

anymore I want the elites and the upper class to just know they can't fuck around because

the poor people will rise up and just take something or they will cause some shit like they at this

point it's their political careers aren't even important enough because they get jobs after

like that is true in politics some career politicians are so useless they may not be employable afterwards.

But they've made so many friends that they'll just get some bored, paid job anyway, gigs,

books, whatever. So that's not enough fear. They need to really be scared, right? Like,

they need to know that society will not function when you try to oppress such a large portion

of it. And that still requires having those awkward conversations. Just, I would like to—and

they still should make those— fucking phone calls to their counselors. I'm not telling

people to not, because you need victories, like even small ones. But it's that larger goal

of really finding our power and being willing to use our bodies in ways, not just our voices.

I agree with that. And let me just be really clear, like we're not doing the door knocking.

in the political lobbying, like, we're a direct action-oriented group, and I think, like, you

should very much anticipate that, like, shit's gonna get real this year. You know, the things

that we've done so far have been fairly defensive, like I mentioned, like, you know, being there

and trying to use our bodies to stop— horrible shit from happening. But we very much are looking

forward in 2024 to what it means to be, yeah, putting our bodies out there proactively taking

spaces. And even like the disruption we helped organize at City Hall for the budget vote,

like that's gonna continue, right? and city hall, committee meetings, catching politicians

in public, like absolutely that is what folks should anticipate this year is that like business

as usual is done and we're moving away from the fear and the kind of reactionary state

that I think we've been growing out of that over the few years and I don't wanna try to

suggest that like, it's all voices, like there's been a big kind of meh-loo and mix of things

that have gotten us to this point, but look man, like if there's nowhere to go, if our

quote unquote new progressive council is just carrying on the legacy of the last. hundred

years of conservative fucking politics in this city and we're just gonna continue to Fund

I mean the on the 14th. I just have to say it boggled my mind to think that like in Olivia

Chow's office is like Michael Hay who founded Progress Toronto and folks from the Toronto

York Region Labour Council Who well this city? Those folks are inside City Council, inside

City Hall, about to pass motions to give the cops more money. The organizations they founded

are outside protesting against a police budget increase. Like, I can't even imagine what being

in Olivia Chow's office is like these days, but like that's the state of things, right?

And I think like- I love that you're laughing, because- The veil. I'm not there yet. What

else can you do, right? I mean. I know, I know. But like that veil is dropped, right? And like

people, even if you're housed, like people can't afford fucking groceries, they can't afford

rent, their kids are moving out of this city. Like things are gonna escalate. The RCMP report,

I don't know if you guys read about the RCMP report about how they say one of the biggest

threats to national security. is going to be people in their 30s realizing that like, shit's

never going to get better and they can't afford to live in this country. Like, I don't know

why I left that part. That's the reality. And I think that like, folks listening to this

podcast should definitely expect to see like more action, more bodies, like the parallels

even to what's happening in Gaza, right? This is like a worldwide effort to militarize the

streets, militarize the state and trample on poor folks. And we were really like, we're

really blessed to have, you know, folks from Juicy No to genocide support our efforts around

the budget. And we show up as well in solidarity to their actions like. This is what we should

expect to see this year in encampments, in the shelter hotels, but also at City Hall and the

places where politicians and decision makers congregate. Well, for all of that, shoot me

a text and I'll be there with a camera and a microphone. I'll make the drive. And writing

an article about it and. talking about it here on Blueprints. And actually I wanna say also,

even if there's an eviction from, like even one person from a shelter, let me know and

I'll go and cover that as well. That's really great to hear. I would just be quick to say

that when we talk to folks, I think that that's something that they don't see or are aware

of, right? Is that like, I'm here. I maybe have a couple of friends that might help me out,

but it's like scary as hell. And when we've asked people at the Delta, like, oh, well,

what do you need to take more action? It's allies. We need allies, we need support. We need to

know the media is gonna be there. We need to know that folks that are housed are gonna show

up for us. And so thank you for that. And I hope that message can come out in this podcast.

more people will DM us and share similar pledges of support because that's gonna go a long way

for people to take that feeling of empowerment and start to build out tactics and strategies

in the places that they live. So much love, appreciate that. Nahum, when you were talking

about. getting to a point, you know, and I'm not gonna take it anymore kind of point, you

know? You're like, it's not just us. I wanted to yell over you. No, we all feel it, brother.

Like we can all feel it, even when we're not personally feeling it, it's in the air. And

a lot of people are just done and frustrated with the stagnation of our movements. Definitely,

definitely. I think that's what makes, yeah, I think that that's what, what I love about

Voices is that like, we're not, I mean, we can, our faces can present lots of different ideas

of who we are, but like, we're poor. Like all our members, we're poor, we're homeless. If

we're not homeless, we're severely underhoused and going to bed every night wondering when.

We're gonna be homeless. And so this is a struggle. It's not us doing work on behalf of other people.

Like this is us. So yeah, thank you for that acknowledgement too. Dreads, before we go,

is there anything else you wanna share with folks? It's also to say that a lot of death

occurs out there as well. Not just like the threat of people ending up out there. Like

while they're out there, there's people who don't submit themselves to the wrong kind of

drugs. You can't tell people what to do for their own solution, but some things are not

for everyone, so... Some people submit themselves to the wrong kind of drugs, they're like, company.

Right? So it's trying to avoid you getting into those toxic relationships. That's also the

thing about getting people out of these, through these kind of threatening... grants and supports.

So hopefully, everyone starts getting more solution based. We need more decision makers that have

economic control or who always get high end decisions. We need more people from the sidewalk

and certain committees.

two shelters and a condo in a hospital, or it's gonna be five condos. All right, it's gonna

be people from the community involved in these contracts. Right, because now money's just

being taxed and spent and you're seeing it's big open and empty lots. All right, doesn't

sound like community plans are involving the community anymore. It's just that the community,

we're gonna make and we're gonna live in it. We don't care if it's gonna cost 10 times what

it costs now. Like, realistically, a house should not cost a million dollars. For one coin a

million dollars should be comfortable. Now, you'd be lucky in Toronto to get a house for

a million dollars. That's crazy. And that's the entire living expenses. They can't even

provide as many jobs in Toronto to support as many houses. But they have more houses in condos

than people. Like, it's... It's crazy. First, there's people on Lensdowne for example. The

other thing that Lensdowne and Broke are gonna do, that they stated that some of their condo

buildings are only 30, 50% full, right? So to me, those things don't make sense. It doesn't.

Not one bit. People don't start making that. It's gonna be a hole in their pockets, their

lifestyle, their time. And as I said, more off community. do not know that they'll potentially

end up here. I think the oldest person I met that came out here for the very first time,

completely naive to the streets, was 64 years old. And I took that gentleman out of Canada,

no, they didn't stay with me until we got into Delta. And when we started doing outreach at

Delta, we still did. But this is just to speak to where it appeared to you. And Todd, that's

just sudden. It's just the potential where you can bump into somebody kind of like myself.

You know, to have you in the in-camp, to keep things clear. Right? Other people out there,

if you're using things like that, taking their money out of the prime, and when you're young,

someone's looking out for you. All right? You're going to grow old, you're a kid, something

like that. And you're an elder when you're an adult. And you're in a mentally under-estated

state. It's about to make you look out for you. So. It's pretty crazy out there. Crazy out

there. So you gotta put the supports back where the supports are for you so everyone gets mentally

well secure and safe when you're listed here. Putting challenges out there to these multi-billion

dollar corporations and million dollar corporations. Like let's buy a house and have a six person

program in it. Let's start having a bell-ringing house. If you can open. get there, hey, you

get a chance to work for us. You want that realistically, Rogers, whatever it is, right? Not just shelters,

solution programs, right? Because not everybody wants to sit there and just deal with nothing.

Some people want to engage in stuff. Right, some people don't know what to do with themselves.

You show them certain opportunities. Some of them need to straighten up right off of the

substance they're dealing with. So hey, this is a realistic opportunity. And then we got

the chance to go to Soil. I was just coming in my dad's backyard. Right, I've got a couple

of new friends, saw down some parks. They did, now I got the chance to work for Roger's here.

I might want to straighten up. I let that forward a little bit. Right, for some people, yeah,

so did we. Now we're at a new big glass space, we can go out there and figure through the

program. Now it's a transitional space. We're getting to make a successful plan. I remember

new shelters, for example, within the first two days, you needed to meet with a worker.

Within two weeks, if you did not meet with a worker, they would pick you up. You don't need

shelters. I feel the adult shelters should have the same thing as the shelter hotels. You have

to meet with your worker every week. So now there's no programs like that. And you don't

jump in. That's why it's prone to all the other excessive dangers. You jump right up to the

other abuses. Alright, so. Change has to be all levels. You want to drop at a time and

overnight, but steps kind of respect. Any direction is going. forward to the third, but the government

likes to step backwards. The promises, the lies, the foolishness. I can't spend any money. Right.

You'll knock on your door for your vote. I say knock on your door to see if you're okay. So

I, I don't get it. Right. And this will tell you your whole counts. So what about my Wallace?

Right.

because the police have no tools on their note. It's a negotiation. Yeah, the way that you

describe the shelters, it's almost like they're trying to drive people out of them from the

beginning to a set of discomfort, harassment, or living conditions. It's, I think it goes

back to the beginning of that cycle, right, like it's supposed to be a cycle. for those

that are designing it, right? Because there's no logic. They're struggling to find logic

in any of this is I think what just slows you down. Like why, why would they do this? It

doesn't make sense. Why would they pass this policy? Why would a caseworker treat me this

way? Like it makes no sense. Don't they understand? And it's just, yeah, there's sometimes just

no finding any sense of it, but that doesn't mean you can't like. What sensible people become

mentally unwell. from being in the shelter system just too long. They ended up leaving and going

right to a tent and leaving Toronto.

There's been a few things and they were getting the supports from two people that were sexually

abused and the staff wouldn't do anything for them without them going to the police. So they

wouldn't even look into it, check the cameras, anything. So for the three days until this

person went to the police, this person was still there, the person was well named, doing whatever.

So there were steps to those kinds of actions. even the attentive support that need to be

there. Okay, we don't know what happened, so for your safety, you can't be on the same floor

as the person. In this case, the person needed to pass the elevator every time to pass that,

they have to pass their room to get to the elevator. So every time they needed to go downstairs

and on the hotel, they have to pass the address or two. So it's like what steps were taken

by staff at all. So like you spoke earlier, the training, as I said, the training goes

to know the difference from a seizure and an overdose, for example.

All right. Now we have a handle, a cut, wrap a wound. All right. Simple stuff. Head wound,

a leg wound. All right. Make a quick split. You know, something until the ambulance gets

there. For the house, the case workers and the housing workers, something like the Delta?

Yeah. All the workers, yeah. Yeah.

should be mandatory. What do they, what purpose do those folks serve just essentially like

property managers that evict or are they supposed to be like social workers? Some of them are

supposed to be housing. Some people said they haven't seen their housing worker in the entire

time they've been there. I know it's two years, six months, a couple of weeks.

They say there's a special diet. That's one of the incidents that led to somebody getting

discharged. There's rumors leading to abuse and discharging. There's quite a few. They

don't monitor. They just seem to let things happen. And once they build, they let the problem

against the out-hands or whatever staff may be seeing it. Then they just say, oh, you're

not reacting right. And if you don't listen to whatever demands they may have at the moment,

like stop that or whatever it be. So you might say, hey, you didn't give me my food. Stop

that. You're yelling at me. I'm not yelling. I'm mad because it's dinner time and I haven't

gotten my diet all day. And I've been here for free. Like then the next thing you're getting

it, you're discharged. You have an half an hour to pack your stuff. So now you're, now you're

furious. Now you're throwing your food and all kinds of stuff. By now when the paper comes

out, your kickbacks are throwing your food. Wait a minute. You were discharged before you

threw your food, but the cameras don't work. Or they work but they don't have sound. Or

10 staff saw you throw your food. All this retribution. Like that, those are the abuses. Those are

the abuses of power. Dreads and Nahum, do you worry that organizing will have you evicted

from any... shelter that you might be in or other police extra police scrutiny is that

a reality for you? I can speak to this quickly I don't know what name I'm gonna say to it

but I was already consequenced for organizing an overtel. I was charged for inciting a riot,

creating an unsafe environment for the staff but they did this like hours, hours after the

incident happened. And then they called police afterwards and said they called the police

and that was the reason because I was assaulting staff. So one, they had two sheets of paper,

one said three reasons, and the other discharge paper had another three reasons. So none of

it was matching up, made sense. So that was like one element of it. so people can get discharged.

And there needs a threat of discharge. One of the people that actually aided us in getting,

one of the main people that aided us in getting the signatures towards the resident meeting,

their tenancy at the hotel for participating with us was threatened, and it was for introducing

something that was external to the program. But. what we did was get them to assist in

petitioning for the resident meeting that was their right. So this is it's like it's their

right to do it so now the resident meeting is happening but now they're the propaganda is

speaking to speaking to us is trying to get the staff in trouble with losing jobs so that's

now making the negative impact on the residents that don't know that are unaware. the residents

that are aware try to tell people, no, this is what we're about. Right. So those are some

of the challenges that we were dealing with in the means of support site and the challenges

to their tenancy and like they really do. Right. So there's a threat of incidents that have

happened to like myself. There's other members, but I don't know if they want to be named.

So that's why I just

But also, I mean, I'll just say that at the Delta, they already treat us like we're rioters

or something for handing out coffee and trying to stop people from, or trying to help people

get back in after eviction. So my take is, look, if you're gonna treat me this way for handing

out cookies on a Thursday, then. Like we might as well take some action, right? Though, obviously

I know like people's level of risk and precarity is different. I'm not, definitely not speaking

on Dread's behalf because what went down at the Novotel was pretty bad. But you know, I

also just wanna say too, like we, for those who aren't familiar, like we started. organizing

at the Novotel down at the Esplanade a couple of years ago. And when they announced that

it was closing, we did a series of escalating actions that led up to an occupation of the

lobby. And they came down pretty hard. The cops, security, everyone came down pretty hard on

us. And a couple weeks ago, we noticed that there were cops positioned at the Delta lobby.

Every time we showed up there, cops kind of permanently there. And then very curious, not

sure why all that's going on. And then a week, 10 days later, all the residents got these

letters saying that the shelter's getting transitioned into a refugee space. So to me, that's a signal

of fear, right? And I actually had a... the fortunate opportunity of a friend who sat in

on a meeting after we occupied the Novotel with Holmes first staff. And it scared the shit

out of them, right? That people took action, that disruption happened. And so no doubt they're

gonna put cops in the lobby, right? Like they're worried about. that kind of level of response

and reaction. They're using union busting tactics on you, right? They know how to do that. And

they're applying it preemptively to the community there. Absolutely. Fuckers. Yep. Well, they're

clever, but are they determined enough to stop? We're clever, too.

Yeah, no doubt. And a lot more determined, I think.

I want to thank you both so much for advising us and taking the time to come on here. And

like I say to all my guests, even more so for the work that you're doing. Like thank you

for persevering through all that shit and continuing to fight and try to pull people along with

you that should already be coming along. And you're actually being quite gracious with the

fact of how...

with allies that should be doing more.

Thank you again for coming on and sharing your stories too. Your perspective is important

and we'll be sure to... Our show notes, if people are listening, are gonna point you right to

Voices for the unhoused. So their social media accounts, various things that they've mentioned

here on the show. And please, please show your support for us folks. All the more things.

And then once the, then what's the, we have our podcast piece as well. This week's good.

The, um. Yeah, we do.

We do have a podcast called. Trial by Shelter. Folks can... We only have our first episode

out. Our next episode's in editing right now. And also just... that like we would love, we're

really looking for folks who can support us as like a monthly supporter and just like having

that kind of consistency allows us to do the outreach, the mutual aid work that we do and

just kind of gives us that consistency to know that next month will be okay, right? that do

rely on that regularity of us showing up. So I'll share the link with you, Jess, so that

you can share in the notes as well. And yeah, thanks for having us. Thank you very much.

That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also,

a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Halu-Quintero. Blueprints of

Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on Twitter

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