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Legends of GTM - Jon Miller
Episode 1 • 30th September 2023 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:51:26

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B2B Marketing can be broadly grouped into eras based on specific go-to-market strategies that were dominant at the time.

Today's guest played a pivotal role in the development of not just one but two (!) of these era-defining strategies: lead generation / content marketing and account-based marketing (ABM).

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About Today's Guest

Jon Miller was the co-founder and first CMO of Marketo, CEO of Engagio, and CMO of DemandBase.

From Jon's LinkedIn: "Jon has played a pivotal role in shaping the world’s most disruptive marketing technology platforms, with a focus on thought leadership, category creation, and strategic go-to-market."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonmiller2/

Key Topics

  • [01:30] - Founding of Marketo, positioning against Eloqua
  • [05:25] - Jon's early use of content marketing, around the same time as Hubspot. Definitive Guides.
  • [10:45] - Marketo's early revenue process. Lead scoring. SDR qualification.
  • [13:50] - Issues with the lead generation model.
  • [21:13] - Rise of ABM. Founding of Engagio. Relationship with Terminus and DemandBase. Flip My Funnel. Acquisition of Engagio.
  • [29:06] - Effectiveness of ABM. Challenges. Importance of seeing ABM as a spectrum vs. a binary.
  • [34:05] - Jon's axioms of marketing
  • [35:50] - Development of marketing operations. RevOps. What marketing operations needs to do to be more strategic.
  • [45:05] - What's next in GTM? Potential impact of AI.

Resource Links

Learn More

Discuss this episode over at the Revops FM SubStack community:

LinkedIn - General

Transcripts

Justin Norris:

You know, if there's one thing we're good at in B two B marketing,

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it's getting ourselves excited about

whatever the latest and greatest thing is.

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And sometimes these are passing

fads and things that just

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kind of fade away with time.

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There's another kind of idea out

there that really embodies an

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entire go-to-market strategy.

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And sometimes these ideas end up.

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defining how revenue teams do

business when they really catch

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on, at least for a period of time.

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And today's guest has played a huge part

in establishing not just one, but actually

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two of these era defining g t m motions.

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Doing that with content marketing

and lead generation as the C

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m O and co-founder at Marketo.

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And second, with the concept of

account-based marketing which he

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pioneered as the c e O of Engagio.

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Then the c m O of Demandbase.

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So I'm super excited to

welcome Jon Miller to the show.

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Jon, thanks for being here.

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Jon, this is a special episode for

me 'cause we're kind of talking

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about history that I've lived

through was big part of my career.

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So excited to do that.

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Maybe we can just kick it off with

a little bit of , inside baseball

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on those early days at Marketo.

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What was that like,

founding that kind of era?

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And just maybe walk us

through that a little bit.

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Jon Miller: Yeah, so you know,

we're talking late:

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Just to kind of ground us historically

software as a service was still

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relatively new at the time.

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So it was far enough along that

when we were starting Marketo,

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we didn't have to say, Ooh, it's

a software as a service company.

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But it was still pretty early.

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Lot there hadn't been a successful

MarTech company before Marketo

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kind of really came along.

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And.

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You know, MarTech is an interesting

category because, you know, marketers

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have lots of budget to spend money,

but they're also perceived as a cost

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center by most of the organization.

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And what that means is that before

SaaS came along, MarTech was hard

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because people didn't want to put

capital investment you know, expensive

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on-premise software for what was

perceived as a cost center SaaS.

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And Marketo really unlocked that because

marketers really for the first time

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could buy out of their program dollars.

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You know, and that was

our mission for Marketo.

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We said we wanted to make

marketing software be as easy

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to buy as Google AdWords.

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Justin Norris: So were you in your

mind's positioning yourselves against

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expensive on-premise software, or were

there other kind of players or legacy

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players in the SaaS space that you were

in a category with in those early days?

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Jon Miller: Yeah,

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Justin Norris: I.

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Jon Miller: question.

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I mean, the, the prior generation

of on-premise was epiphany where

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I came from before Marketo, broad

base, And the reality is none of

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those tools had really made it.

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And so I.

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There was the company we positioned

against back in:

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was a company called Eloqua.

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Uh, Eloqua started in 1999

actually, but had evolved onto

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software as a service model.

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And, you know, they had fortunately

been able to sort of start to build

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the category even before we got there.

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But also Eloqua was perceived as

being expensive and hard to use.

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And so it was nice, we could,

we could build Marketo and, and,

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we basically positioned it as,

Hey, it's marketing automation,

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everything you want from Eloqua,

but it's affordable and easy to use.

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Justin Norris: Got it.

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Jon Miller: you know, against a larger

company that had, for lack of a better

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word, some flaws really helped us

you know, kind of get things started.

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Justin Norris: So they had kind of

broken ground with the category,

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and then you could come in and be

like, we are a better version of that

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thing that you've been hearing about.

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Jon Miller: Exactly.

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You know, and, you know, some people sort

of give me credit for creating categories.

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The reality is I don't think

I've created categories.

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I think what I've done is I've entered

existing categories with perhaps a better

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design or a better solution, and then

used that to help unlock the category.

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You know, I mean, the classic

example of doing that obviously, I

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think is the iPhone, you know, which

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Justin Norris: Right.

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Jon Miller: the iPhone there were all

sorts of designs for how people should

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build an iPhone or build a phone.

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They had keyboards, they folded, they

did that, and, you know, and then

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the iPhone came around and it was

so clearly that's the right design.

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Now every phone looks like a black,

you know, brick with a screen.

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Justin Norris: Have you

seen the Blackberry movie?

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Jon Miller: I've not seen the movie, no.

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Justin Norris: We're well worth

watching looks exactly that.

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The introduction to the Blackberry,

kind of how it took over, and

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then how they were just completely

sideswiped by the iPhone

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Jon Miller: yeah, that's sort

of similar to what I tried to

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do with Marketo versus Eloqua.

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And as we get to it, similar to what

I tried to do with Engage, you also.

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Justin Norris: So talking a little

bit about specifically the marketing

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efforts during that time at Marketo

and I think like, like content

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marketing, inbound marketing.

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Was this, was this pre HubSpot kind

of using that term inbound marketing

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and really popularizing it or was it

sort of contemporaneous with that?

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Jon Miller: It was contemporaneous.

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Marketo and HubSpot got started

almost exactly the same time.

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And even to the point that I remember,

there's a very early Early, early meeting,

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where Phil Fernandez and I, my, you

know, he's my Marketo co-founder met

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up with Brian Hagan and Dharmesh from

HubSpot, you know, on university a in Palo

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Alto, you know, and we're a little bit

talking about, Hey, what are you doing?

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What are we doing?

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We keep hearing about you because

it sort of seems similar, but you're

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on Boston and we're in California.

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So, know, but we ended up, I think,

seeing a lot of the same trends and

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applying that to our go to market.

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I had, I mean, sort of funny story bef

when I was deciding to start Marketo, my

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main alternative career I was considering

at the time was to be a Forester analyst.

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And I actually got a job offer to do that.

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The reason I mentioned that is

because I knew I wanted to write,

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Know, when I started doing this

company, I knew I wanted to share

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ideas and thought leadership.

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And I remember I, I had lunch with

Sean Whiteley, who is over qualified

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now, was at Kean at the time.

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And he just told me, you know, just

start blogging, you know, just, just

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start blogging and put it out there

and people will find your stuff.

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And I was like, okay, I'll try it.

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So yeah, I did start blogging at

Marketo before we even wrote our

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first line of code, and I was

blogging about things that were much

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bigger than just Marketo was doing.

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I wrote a lot about how is marketing

changing and what is the role of the

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cmo and how do CMOs earn credibility

and respect and, you know, I, I

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networked with other bloggers, you

know, and, and it built a following.

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It built an audience such that when

we actually had Marketo ready to

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go and build, there was, you know,

and have that message of, Hey, oh

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hey, it's like Eloqua, but it's

more affordable and easier to use.

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There was an audience ready to hear that.

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Justin Norris: So drilling down into

that point one of the things that I

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remember very well from that era were

the definitive guides that you would

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put out, which were kind of like eBooks

on steroids for people that, that don't

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remember them, but they were really big

marquee pieces of content that kind of

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Captured a lot of information

like nurturing, lead scoring.

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There were a few and, and

you mentioned blogging.

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I'd forgotten that, but I really, I'm now

remembering like how present you were.

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A lot of CMOs exist in the

background and then they have teams

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executing, but you were really

the face of marketing at Marketo.

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Where did, I guess, did these definitive

guys come out of your desire to write?

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Was there a defined

strategy in going there?

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What led you there?

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Jon Miller: Yeah, the decision

guides probably were a little later.

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Just to put in context, I think the

irst one probably came out in:

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Justin Norris: Okay.

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Jon Miller: So, know, we had, we

had built our first couple products.

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We were kind of in market.

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But there was a specific meeting I

had with Phil, our c e o I think,

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where he sort of was challenging me

to, to kind of create something that

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was even more black letter word,

definitive, you know, out there,

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uh, um, about the nurturing.

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So, you know, I went and we wrote this

and at the time it was like 45 pages.

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You know, and oh wow,

that's a long, it's long.

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On eBooks, we call it a definitive guide.

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My most recent definitive guide was 220.

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either, you know they, they've bloated

over the years, or I've had more to say.

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Justin Norris: .And how, do you

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remember from a marketing point

of view, how those were received?

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Like, did you just see a, a huge

flood of leads in the beginning

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or was it kind of a, a slow and

steady trickle with that process?

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I.

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Jon Miller: Well, at the times, the

center guides worked really well for us.

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You know, both just, Hey,

we could announce it.

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And, especially after the first

one when people sort of knew,

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oh, these things are pretty good.

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We'd announce it and we'd get, we'd get

a lot of we'd get a lot of downloads.

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We also did Other clever things, I

think, to try to get more downloads.

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We'd intersperse interviews with other

thought leaders throughout the guide.

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And then we'd also have a list at the

back of experts to follow, so then when we

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launched it, we could tag all those people

and let them all know about it, you know?

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So we could have a more, you

know, there was also already

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kind of a built-in endorsement.

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and then we use the there's

lots of names for the strategy.

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Some people call it, you know,

the, the bison because the American

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Indians used to use every piece of

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Detached audio: the

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Jon Miller: bison, or we like

reuse and repurpose the content.

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one definitive guide would also turn

into, you know, a virtual event,

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two webinars, eight blog posts,

you know, a whole bunch of social,

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Justin Norris: Infographics.

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Jon Miller: Infographics.

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Yeah,

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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Jon Miller: Just a lot of

repurposing of the content.

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Justin Norris: And, and, and from a,

like you know, the, the, call it the

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manufacturing process, was it Were

you embodying a Marketo, pretty much

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like what you were preaching on the

outside in the sense of like leads

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would come in, they would get nurtured,

they would get scored, they would be

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handed over to SDRs to be qualified.

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How did kind of that aspect of it work?

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Jon Miller: Yeah, I mean at the

time at Marketo, we definitely

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were practicing what we preached.

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As I like to say, we were

drinking our own champagne.

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So it, it was exactly, it was the

model that a lot of companies are

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Justin Norris: I.

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Jon Miller: today.

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You know, we, the, the, the key,

probably the key innovation was

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just because you downloaded the

ebook did not make you a lead.

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if you downloaded the ebook, you

came in as what we called an inquiry,

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and then only if you looked like

you were somebody in our I C P.

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right kind of persona,

the right kind of company.

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we call you a prospect?

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In the earliest days, I had my junior mops

person looking at each lead and he was

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deciding, know, is this a prospect or not?

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And then as our technology

got a little better, we were

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able to automate that process.

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But just because you're a

prospect, did not call you.

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We would then put you into a nurture.

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And we had a scoring threshold,

and you only became a lead or an

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M Q L when your score re above

to reach a certain certain goal.

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On average, a prospect was in our

database for 330 days between when

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they first came in as a prospect and

when they finally became an M Q L.

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Justin Norris: That's interesting

and, and did, did you have any data

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on like how many pieces of content

they may have consumed during that

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time, or like how many touch points

it may have taken them over that time?

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I mean, obviously not looking

for a specific answer, but just

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Jon Miller: I had all that data.

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I don't remember,

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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Jon Miller: it

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Detached audio: right

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Jon Miller: now.

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but the other, so the other

interesting note point is that

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three 30 days was an average.

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However, about half the M QLS that

we had each month would have come

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from new prospects that month.

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so you think about, you know,

we kind of half would come in

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would sort of come in interested.

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And they'd fill out a contact me form just

do a bunch, like immediately light up.

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then the other half of our M QLS were

ones that kind of had nurtured over

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time, perhaps for more than a year.

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Once it was an M Q L went to an S D R,

they'd qualify it, they would go to, you

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know, the right ones would go to sales.

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We had a relatively low bar for

what it needed to be to be an M Q

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L because I didn't want to have any

false negatives and like not send

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stuff over that we should have.

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Justin Norris: Yep.

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Jon Miller: Then the SDRs were really

strict about what they would pass over

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to sales, because I wanted the sales

reps every time they got something

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from their S D R smell money to know

like, okay, this is gonna be good.

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Justin Norris: Did

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SDRs report to marketing or

did you have a separate team?

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A separate leader for that team.

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Jon Miller: changed over the

years, but probably, you know, the

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earliest days of Marketo reported

to sales, but relatively soon it

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moved to report to me in marketing.

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Justin Norris: Interesting.

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And you know, as you said, that

model has been remarkably enduring.

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I was in.

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Marketo Consulting for seven

years, and we were still

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implementing it to the day I left.

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They're still implementing it today.

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But you wrote a, I was wanting to

go in this direction, then I saw you

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wrote an article, kinda provocative

article that, that tackles this issue

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of you know, I helped create this

model but it doesn't work anymore.

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And, sorry, I'm paraphrasing

you, but roughly that and,

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and here's what works better.

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So, . Tell me, like what were

some of the issues that you saw?

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Do you think those are inherent to the

model, or was it just you know, overuse

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people taking something and using it

crudely without the same sophistication

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as the people that created it?

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What, what kind of led to to that place?

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I.

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Jon Miller: Yeah, I think there's

four main factors I'd point to.

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So, you know, you know, and, and, and,

and the data it I think is something

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that I hear when I just go talk to other

marketers and CMOs, the people listening

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probably feel this, you've probably heard

it from your other guests, but that it

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just, it seems like it, it feels like it's

hard out there to create enough pipeline.

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You know?

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It's harder than it has been.

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And there is also a anecdotal feeling

of, you know, what I used to do doesn't

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work quite as well or doesn't work

at all so that's really what I mean.

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And, and, and, and I, I'll

point to the four reasons why.

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The first one is just the time

we're in right now with the economy.

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You know, it's, we've, we, I think

we've all seen our budgets get cut

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or many people have seen budgets

get cut in the current economy.

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know, as the zeitgeist has

moved from growth at any cost to

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efficient, profitable growth we've

seen, we've seen dollars go down.

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And a lot of companies face layoffs.

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You know, and think two things

that have happened there.

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One, it's easier to cut your program

dollars than people, so we sort of

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disproportionately cut program dollars.

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And then when you're cutting people, I.

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You tend to cut more junior people

sometimes, rather than the, your

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leaders, you can end up with top

heavy teams, you know, as a result.

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So, so collectively that's just

created, I think, a challenge

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in terms of pipeline creation.

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That's, that's sort of specific to now.

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Justin Norris: because there's not

enough people to, to execute or

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there's not enough budget to execute

on some of these specific things.

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Yeah.

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Jon Miller: there's not enough

junior people to execute.

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And it's, it's just a tough, you

know, it's a tougher time, you know?

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Second, but then the other reasons

are a little bit more enduring.

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and you alluded to the first one,

which is I think just buyers have

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gotten overwhelmed and indifferent

to a lot of the different tactics.

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And we've all heard forms of this,

you know, whether it's content shock

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or, or whatever yeah, I mean, there's,

there's, there's just too many eBooks,

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too many emails, too many phone calls.

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And and the buyers have

gotten savvy, right?

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They know if they come to your site

and fill out a form for an ebook that,

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you know, they're probably gonna start

getting unwanted calls and emails.

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You know, and partly that is

people who aren't practicing the

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playbook in the right way, right?

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As I said earlier, just 'cause you

download an ebook doesn't make you an

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M Q L and yet To a lot of companies,

they're still defining their MQL that way.

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So buyers have gotten savvy.

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They're turn, you know, they're,

they're avoiding their, you know,

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our websites and our forms and

they're staying anonymous longer.

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Justin Norris: Do you think that

companies are also . Focusing a lot on

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the, like the framework and the process

of download, ebook, nurture and less

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on like to me, the whole point of the

ebook wasn't just that you gave them an

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ebook or you gave them a nurture email.

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It was that there was something really

valuable there and I wonder if like the

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people kept doing the same things, but

then a lot of the substance was almost

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sucked out of it till the content became

very generic and non valuable anymore.

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In some cases, at least.

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I know a lot of what hits

my inbox is like that.

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Jon Miller: I think,

yeah, I think that's fair.

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I mean, I do think there's a

spectrum of content quality and,

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some people are doing really good

stuff and that probably is working.

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Yeah, you're right.

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There probably is a lot of

stuff out there as well.

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I think the third reason

is inherent in the model.

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The, the traditional model that I used

to preach is that your marketing should

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be highly measurable and tied to revenue.

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And you know, I think that

has biased our investment.

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Into things where we can show more

of a direct flown into content

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syndication, paid search paid

webinars to a lesser degree.

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Certain kinds of events, you know,

because you know the ones where you can

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more easily say, I spent this much money

and we got this many people to respond,

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and then those people turned into these

kinds of leads and know, et cetera.

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Boards have come to expect those

kinds of metrics, CFOs, have come

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to expect those kinds of metrics.

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But as a result, there's been a systematic

underinvestment in more traditional brand

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brand building and you know, that that

stuff's inherently harder to measure.

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But the problem is if you're not doing

that, What ends up happening is you

337

:

end up fighting over the same small

fraction of the market that happens to

338

:

be looking for a solution right now.

339

:

As opposed to creating market

that will be, you know, will

340

:

be looking for a solution.

341

:

Research, I've seen research that

says probably on average only

342

:

about 5% of your I C P will be in

market at any given point in time.

343

:

Long story short, on this point, we've

overinvested our budgets trying to

344

:

go after that 5% and underinvested

in kind of, you know, building

345

:

future market against the 95%.

346

:

And there's a whole bunch of

other reasons behind this.

347

:

You know, including the desire to

sort of, you know, short-term versus

348

:

thinking, you know, you, you name it.

349

:

And then lastly, the, the fourth main

flaw, which I didn't mention in the

350

:

article, but I think is also true is that

traditional model, the Marketo model was

351

:

over-focused on new pipeline generation.

352

:

It was so bad at Marketo to be honest,

that if an existing customer responded

353

:

to one of our campaigns, we literally

wouldn't count it as a success.

354

:

'cause we only wanted new prospects.

355

:

And so,

356

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

357

:

Jon Miller: you know, as a result,

you know, marketing has not been or

358

:

incented on really important things

like pipeline acceleration, improving

359

:

sales efficiency, win rates, and all

as well as things like retention.

360

:

And that all has a pretty

significant impact on the business.

361

:

Justin Norris: So I guess in, in

some ways that is a, a good segue

362

:

to the next next phase maybe of,

of go to market in your career.

363

:

And I remember it was, it was

at a, I was at Marketo summit,

364

:

this is where I remember.

365

:

And I remember like, oh, Jon Miller

came out with a new company, GAO.

366

:

And the key line that seemed

to to stick in my brain was

367

:

like, phishing with spears.

368

:

Like, I don't know if it was you

who coined that or you pulled that

369

:

from somewhere, but you obviously

timed that announcement rather well.

370

:

did you land there in ab bm?

371

:

Was a b m already a thing that like,

like you said with Elco, like a category

372

:

that you could say, we're doing this

but doing it better, or was this a

373

:

thing that you net knew, created?

374

:

Jon Miller: Yeah, I mean, a b M was

definitely around a B M probably

375

:

had been around as a concept.

376

:

For at least five years.

377

:

it started, it had been coined by a

consulting group called the I T S M A

378

:

IT Services and Marketing Association to

really, you know, talk about, you know,

379

:

how they were, you know, how companies,

know, and, and, and they were like

380

:

literally focused on, you know, companies

like Accenture that would have a half

381

:

billion dollar a year consulting contract.

382

:

A client, you know, and I mean, clearly

if you have a half billion dollar

383

:

a year contract with an existing

client, nothing about get them to

384

:

download an ebook and become an m p l.

385

:

Makes sense.

386

:

Um, so, so that concept of a B M had

been around for a while at Marketo.

387

:

One of the things that I had

realized that our traditional

388

:

model wasn't working for us.

389

:

You know, was that we, we, we, we

were struggling a little bit to move

390

:

up market into larger enterprises.

391

:

You know, the, the whole write in ebook

and like try to see who downloads it

392

:

model, you know, we were sort of at the

mercy of who happened to come download

393

:

and so at the time we just felt what

I called then and just an outbound

394

:

motion where we sort of tried to find

companies and people we wanted to go

395

:

after and started to go after them.

396

:

And yeah, it was through that internal

practice at Marketo that I started

397

:

using Fishing with Don't care who

responds, just care if you catch enough.

398

:

Versus fishing with spears, kind

of for the main outbound motion.

399

:

When I knew I wanted to leave Marketo

to start another business, you know,

400

:

there are lots of things on my mind.

401

:

You know, I wanted what, something

that seemed like it was an emerging

402

:

idea and that was gonna get traction.

403

:

It did seem.

404

:

That a b m was just starting to get

some, some traction in the marketplace.

405

:

I also knew what my long-term vision was,

you know, which is ultimately, I still

406

:

believe, you know, there's an opportunity

to build a next generation marketing

407

:

platform, and I felt like a b m was a good

path to get to where I, I I wanted to go.

408

:

And if I'm totally candid, the

third thing was good is that there

409

:

was one company that was already in

the market was talking about a B M.

410

:

That had a bit of a reputation

of being a little expensive,

411

:

that company was Demandbase.

412

:

So at the time I thought I could

sort of, you know, all right, hey,

413

:

Demandbase is starting to kind of create

some demand for this idea of a b M.

414

:

Let me come in with a kind, kind

of a better product and a better

415

:

Justin Norris: So re recreating that play.

416

:

I think Terminus was around

as well, weren't they?

417

:

Or there was like a

418

:

Jon Miller: to Marketo, HubSpot,

419

:

Justin Norris: kind of, yeah,

420

:

Jon Miller: started almost exactly the

same time as to the point, at one point

421

:

Sangram and I were like, Hey, maybe

we should just like combine this thing

422

:

and, you know, go, go to town together,

which our boards didn't let us do,

423

:

but it was, you know, very early and

424

:

Justin Norris: F

425

:

Funny how history kind of

rhymes in that way over time.

426

:

And, and yeah.

427

:

And there was the, the,

the flip my funnel thing.

428

:

I can't even remember whose thing that

was, but I remember that was really

429

:

Detached audio: big

430

:

Justin Norris: for a while.

431

:

Jon Miller: was an interesting

piece of coopetition.

432

:

I mean, you know, I, I would say

Marketo versus Elko got nasty at times.

433

:

And I was pretty

determined to a avoid that.

434

:

So even when So we, so we were, we

tried to be as friendly as possible

435

:

with Terminus and, and Demandbase

and the other a b M players, know,

436

:

including when Sangram wanted to do

Flip My Funnel, we sponsored it, know,

437

:

we're like, Hey, you know, let's,

let's build this category together.

438

:

Demandbase was actually an engage

customer for a while, you know?

439

:

And, and that's the other thing

that was going on, you know, in,

440

:

in, in reality, a b M was earlier

than marketing automation was.

441

:

And so each of us were building solutions

around a b m that ended up being not

442

:

as competitive as you would think,

443

:

Justin Norris: That's interesting

444

:

' Jon Miller: cause it was kind of so big.

445

:

Maybe the fast forward

question you didn't ask.

446

:

so that's what you know, let

fast forward to five years later.

447

:

And know, as the market had evolved,

you know, we built something

448

:

pretty interesting at Engagio,

which was sort of almost like

449

:

marketing automation for a B m.

450

:

Demand base was still in the market

with something pretty interesting,

451

:

which was much more top of the funnel.

452

:

know, predictive analytics to find

accounts that were in market, the ability

453

:

to advertise, to attract them to your

website, and then the ability to identify

454

:

them on your website and personalize.

455

:

So in reality there's almost no overlap

between what the two companies were doing.

456

:

But as the category had evolved, what

had become clear is that the winning

457

:

solution, you know, the iPhone of a B

458

:

Detached audio: m,

459

:

Jon Miller: was gonna combine what

we did and what Demandbase did.

460

:

And I had a roadmap that was gonna

take me three years to get there.

461

:

had a roadmap that was gonna take

them three years to get there.

462

:

You know, and then we were, you

know, realized and we had joint

463

:

customers that were using both of us.

464

:

So we realized, and we started having

the conversations like that this

465

:

combination could very well be the

dominant design in the category.

466

:

And that's what led me to sort of

decide to merge the companies together.

467

:

Justin Norris: It just became a kind

of better together sort of situation.

468

:

And now, I mean, in my mind, you guys

in Six Sense are kind of the Coke

469

:

and Pepsi of this of this ecosystem.

470

:

And it feels like in many different

categories where the main vendors

471

:

are, are, are all sort of moving into,

occupying all the different feature

472

:

areas to be as competitive as possible.

473

:

Is that what you see as, as the future's

kinda like two . Big platforms or do

474

:

you think there will continue to be

challengers and point solutions that

475

:

sort of emerge, maybe get bundled

in, maybe become complimentary?

476

:

Jon Miller: No, it's def.

477

:

It's definitely becoming more mature.

478

:

You know, where, where I think we

have coalesced around demand base and

479

:

six sense as the two primary players.

480

:

Even Terminus has very

fallen to the wayside.

481

:

The, the, the dark

horse would be ZoomInfo,

482

:

Justin Norris: Hmm.

483

:

Right.

484

:

Yeah.

485

:

Jon Miller: You know, and, and they,

they've got the resources, I think to

486

:

attempt to challenge, you know, I don't

think the product is there yet, but

487

:

they're certainly gonna keep trying.

488

:

What that really represents is, I

think, an evolution of a B M because

489

:

even as ZoomInfo is trying to get into

a b m, demand base has gotten into data

490

:

Justin Norris: Right.

491

:

Jon Miller: and, you know, we sell

a lot of data now we, we have 130,

492

:

150 million contacts and almost a

hundred million companies, and we sell

493

:

Technographic data and intent data.

494

:

And we have a bunch of customers who

don't even use our software and just

495

:

bought, just use us as a data provider,

which competes against ZoomInfo.

496

:

And so that's how this category

is evolving, is not just about the

497

:

software anymore, it's about the data.

498

:

And, and you'll see there that'll

cause new players to kind of, know,

499

:

enter and, and kind of blur the lines.

500

:

As this quick sidebar, what's, what's

driving the, the, the data demand?

501

:

mean, data's always been

important, but AI in particular

502

:

what's really unlocked that

because great AI needs great data.

503

:

So think ultimately when it comes to

these go-to market platforms, he or

504

:

she who has the best data is gonna win.

505

:

Justin Norris: So kind of riffing on

that point, like my perception of of

506

:

a b m has been like, it's become the

thing that you need to be doing it.

507

:

so from a, from a category point of view,

it has become so dominant that it's like,

508

:

well, you don't, you don't do a, b m,

you're some kind of Tite or something

509

:

who who doesn't know how to do market.

510

:

Or at least if you're, if you're

selling to companies of any size,

511

:

it's something that you need to at

least grapple with at some point.

512

:

In terms of how it's actually

executed, . As a, as a practitioner,

513

:

as a consultant, a, it's, it's hard.

514

:

My perception is that it's hard

to do well and that there aren't

515

:

a ton of people doing it well.

516

:

Now that's a much more limited

perspective, I think, than

517

:

you have, but I'd be curious,

I'd be curious what you see.

518

:

Do you see people running with

it excelling at, I know this is a

519

:

loaded question given your role to

Demandbase, but is, are companies

520

:

succeeding broadly with this model

out in the marketplace, do you think?

521

:

Jon Miller: Many are.

522

:

and I think many struggle.

523

:

I I think you almost have

to, I think, be a little more

524

:

nuanced in the question though.

525

:

And here's what I mean by

that is, is I don't think a b

526

:

m is a black or white thing.

527

:

I think phishing with spears versus

phishing with net set it up too much

528

:

as a dichotomy when in reality it's

better thought as a spectrum, you know?

529

:

And you have on the one end you have

Accenture selling half billion dollar

530

:

deals, And that's your true one-to-one.

531

:

Totally bespoke, you know, a b m.

532

:

And honestly, companies doing

that are seeing wild success.

533

:

And I think they would all say it's

totally worth it, and they would also

534

:

say it's hard to scale, you know?

535

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

536

:

Jon Miller: but a hundred percent, you

know, seeing value and it's worth it.

537

:

Then you have your one to few style

of a b m that's probably appropriate

538

:

for, say, high six figure deals, you

know, half a million a year, and so on.

539

:

And know, typically a company is

going to only have a couple dozen

540

:

accounts that they're really targeting,

kind of, kind of at that level.

541

:

Then you have your one to many, know,

these are your, your low six figure

542

:

high five figure deals, and you might

have a couple hundred of those accounts.

543

:

And then below that you have what

I would just call targeted demand

544

:

generation which is, you know, maybe

not pure net phishing because you

545

:

have specific companies and specific

ones you're going at, but you're using

546

:

less personalized and broader tactics.

547

:

So the

548

:

Justin Norris: it.

549

:

Jon Miller: you know, the purists would

say the only thing that's actually

550

:

a b m is the one-to-one, you know?

551

:

Justin Norris: half

the half billion deals.

552

:

Jon Miller: yeah.

553

:

I, I would say again, it's a

spectrum and it's about using

554

:

the right style of go to market.

555

:

for the kind of business that you happen

to have, and you probably are gonna span

556

:

one or two of those you know, in, in, in,

in your kind of personal go to market.

557

:

So that's where I think, you know,

have fallen down with a b m is trying

558

:

to say it's a binary thing that

I'm tacking on to something else

559

:

that I'm doing as opposed to just.

560

:

I'm gonna have a go-to market that's

appropriate for ideal sizes that might

561

:

involve more of my time and energy on more

valuable accounts because I don't have,

562

:

'cause because my more, my more valuable

accounts are simply worth it, you know?

563

:

And I think if you think about it

that way, it's, it's a lot simpler.

564

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

565

:

Less binary.

566

:

Less reductive.

567

:

Yeah.

568

:

Jon Miller: people are

a lot more successful.

569

:

One to many, like that's

where a lot of companies are.

570

:

I mean, a lot of companies happen to sell

deals between 50 and $250,000 a year.

571

:

And I think that's why we see so

much discussion about a B M and what

572

:

would be considered the one to many.

573

:

And that's where you see

the most use of technology.

574

:

You know, that that can

be hard or it can be easy.

575

:

And what I mean by that is, yeah, you

can do all sorts of things and try to

576

:

create really complicated programs in

one to many, the easy on-ramp where

577

:

companies just happen, I think see success

is just that intersection of intent,

578

:

data, advertising, and sales alerting.

579

:

Just know which accounts have intent,

you know, focus, you know, know,

580

:

have different, have some ads to, to

your target market to try to create

581

:

awareness, other ads to the one's intent

to really kind of drive engagement,

582

:

know, and then when your account,

the accounts are actually in market

583

:

and, or you know, really engaging on

your website, alert sales, you know?

584

:

Is that true?

585

:

A B m?

586

:

No, not.

587

:

But is it effective,

especially in today's buying?

588

:

it is.

589

:

Justin Norris: So kind of a

technology assisted outbound as

590

:

opposed to just dialing from the

phone book or something like that.

591

:

You have

592

:

Jon Miller: Yeah, and I would

say prioritized outbound.

593

:

Justin Norris: prioritized open Do

you think like, as a, as a marketer,

594

:

you know, as we've seen go to go

to market, motions come and go,

595

:

they evolve, they blur together.

596

:

In terms of how you think as a C M

O, do you feel that there are certain

597

:

kind of truths of marketing that

transcend that and that be remain

598

:

eternally relevant, so to speak?

599

:

Whatever category, whatever

type of motion you're doing?

600

:

Are there certain axioms, I guess,

that you live by as a marketer?

601

:

Jon Miller: I mean, I think certain

act truths in marketing, right?

602

:

Is understand your audience and,

you know, make sure that you're

603

:

speaking, you know, to that audience,

know, know what their, what their

604

:

needs are, what their values are.

605

:

Talk more about them than

let and less about yourself.

606

:

You know create value or, you know, before

you ask for anything from, from them.

607

:

Or give value before you ask would

be kind of another way to say it.

608

:

you know, if you try to be something

for everybody, you're gonna end

609

:

up being something for nobody,

610

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

611

:

Jon Miller: know?

612

:

So, dunno, those are some

613

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

614

:

Jon Miller: I think are.

615

:

Justin Norris: And, and, and

you've been a marketer selling

616

:

to marketers for some time.

617

:

Is that like, kind of, how has that

given you an unfair advantage, so

618

:

to speak, in terms of being able

to speak your audience's language?

619

:

Jon Miller: I don't know how I could

be, I don't think I necessarily

620

:

could or would be successful

marketing to another persona.

621

:

Like, I mean these folks who

like market to it all day long.

622

:

More power to you.

623

:

I just, it's that's not, that's.

624

:

I, I have a pa I, I have a passion

around, you know, marketing to

625

:

marketing and sales, you know,

the go-to-market function.

626

:

Justin Norris: I want to take the

lens and focus it a little bit on, on

627

:

marketing operations because it's kind

of the backdrop to this story in a way.

628

:

Is sort of the evolution of marketing

operations as a, as a function.

629

:

And I know when I, I bought my first

instance in:

630

:

It was the last, last day of the year.

631

:

And I got a sweet discount for it, it

was:

632

:

marketing operations person, I was just

a startup marketer and I'm like, I need

633

:

to automate some stuff 'cause I don't

have enough time to do everything.

634

:

And and eventually I, I really loved

the tech and I really loved like, whoa,

635

:

I can do all these cool workflows.

636

:

You know, I'm not a developer,

but I can do some amazing things.

637

:

But a lot of people in the community

were still like, Demand gen.

638

:

It wasn't like I'm a marketing

ops person, I use Marketo.

639

:

It's like I'm a demand gen

marketer and I use marketing.

640

:

I use Marketo, or I use whatever

to to help me in what I'm doing.

641

:

And then somewhere along the way,

you know, three or four or five,

642

:

six years later, there was this

thing of marketing operations.

643

:

And was this, was this a

category in your brain in the

644

:

beginning or when did it emerge?

645

:

If, if not at the beginning

646

:

Jon Miller: I would say

marketing operations.

647

:

It didn't surprise me, but it, it as a,

as the whole thing around it, it kind of,

648

:

you know I, I didn't, I didn't drive it.

649

:

It happened without me.

650

:

is probably the, the

right way to describe it.

651

:

You know, I mean, so I mean, as I, as

I mentioned, we, we had a marketing

652

:

ops person pretty early at Marketo.

653

:

And so I sort of, you know, I saw the

need of this and, and the value of it.

654

:

But I would say the, the fact that it's

become such a discipline, you know, is,

655

:

is, know, that happened I think, you

know, very organically in the industry.

656

:

The other thing I would say I was

probably behind the curve on is the

657

:

drive towards rev ops you know, I,

I have mixed feelings on that one.

658

:

I, I still think it's the right

answer for most companies, and at

659

:

the same time as a C M O, I'm, I'm

so hesitant about giving up ops.

660

:

You know,

661

:

Justin Norris: So let's, I was

gonna go, go there and maybe I'll,

662

:

I'll combine two questions in one.

663

:

'cause one of my questions was, you know,

in the beginning, so in the beginning,

664

:

the backdrop to my question is it's,

it felt to me like Ops was very tech,

665

:

marketing ops was very tech focused,

which wasn't the case with sales ops.

666

:

Sales Ops always had.

667

:

Deal desk and comp plans and territory

planning and other things that

668

:

weren't really technology related.

669

:

But it felt like marketing ops,

at least in the beginning, was

670

:

very technology synonymous,

although that's slowly changing.

671

:

And so I was curious on the

one hand, what do you think

672

:

marketing ops should be today?

673

:

And then part of that answer could

be, should it be part of rev ops?

674

:

Should as a C M O, what are you looking

to operations to provide to you today?

675

:

Maybe the right way of putting it.

676

:

Jon Miller: Yeah.

677

:

Well, I think the first thing we should

sort of think about is separating out

678

:

campaign ops from from from marketing ops.

679

:

You know, the, you know, like, like

campaign ops is I think the one

680

:

that's sort of the most technology

connected, you're running your Marketo,

681

:

somebody's, you know, there's a smart

list, you know, segmentation strategies,

682

:

you know, all that kind of stuff.

683

:

And you know, even if you have a ops

function, I think there's no argument that

684

:

could be said that that campaign ops might

continue to still exist in marketing.

685

:

so back to your more specific question.

686

:

What I want from, from ops, I mean,

I think there's a couple key pillars.

687

:

You know, one is data and just, you know,

how did you make sure that the company

688

:

has access to, you know, clean data,

good data that's organized properly,

689

:

you know, all that kind of good stuff.

690

:

Second is analytics.

691

:

I think third budget.

692

:

Just making sure that like, you know,

we're, you know, as, as a group we're

693

:

entrusted with a certain amount of

budget, you know, that we sort of, you

694

:

know, use it kind of appropriately, you

know, And then I think lastly is kind

695

:

of, you know, technology technology

management potentially beyond kind of

696

:

the, the core campaign ops, if you will.

697

:

The, the reason why I think rev ops is

potentially so, makes so much sense.

698

:

Is you know, let's think about, you

know, a bunch of those pieces, right?

699

:

So, you know, data, I mean, you know,

it, it doesn't make sense that, you know,

700

:

you'd have some, you know, people are

in sales ops thinking about data about

701

:

your accounts, but then different people

thinking about data, about your contacts.

702

:

Justin Norris: All right.

703

:

Jon Miller: I think analytics,

I mean, I've seen this, you

704

:

know, when you, I, I've been in

meetings where you have separate

705

:

marketing ops and sales ops teams.

706

:

Where we're sort of asking a question

and different people are bringing up

707

:

different dashboards that are spent

to answer the same question, right?

708

:

That's what happens when you have, you

know, separate, separate analytics teams

709

:

in the two different ops functions.

710

:

Even things like and planning, you

know, like how did you know setting your

711

:

pipeline targets and your lead targets

versus your sort of bookings targets.

712

:

territory planning, those shouldn't

be two separate processes,

713

:

you know, that should be one.

714

:

Justin Norris: It has to be unified.

715

:

Yeah.

716

:

Jon Miller: But, but, but these

are some of the arguments that I'm

717

:

kind of coming around to on, on

718

:

Justin Norris: But you, you alluded

to, I think a common concern both

719

:

from marketing leaders and from

marketing ops practitioners is that

720

:

rev ops is kind of the, the sales

op ops wolf in sheep's clothing.

721

:

And that if you, you go there, you

end up with marketing ops reporting

722

:

to maybe a C R O or sales leader that

doesn't understand marketing and then.

723

:

Jon Miller: that's a big fat no,

though you know, I mean like when

724

:

we implemented Rev ops, a demand

base, it rolled up to the C C F O.

725

:

Justin Norris: Okay.

726

:

Jon Miller: And both sales.

727

:

Sales gave up, sales ops, marketing

gave up, marketing ops, you know, but

728

:

yeah, rev, rev Ops is not sales ops.

729

:

It should not report up to sales.

730

:

It's either, you know, my favorite

one that I've seen is Workato, where

731

:

they have a chief operations officer,

you know, who reports to the c o.

732

:

But more often than that, more often

than not, I see the operations function

733

:

either reporting to the C F O or a C O O.

734

:

Justin Norris: C o o seems to me

intuitively the most logical, and

735

:

it kind of becomes more neutral,

more like Switzerland, where

736

:

Jon Miller: Not, not

every company has a C O O,

737

:

Justin Norris: yeah.

738

:

To what extent today, let's say, does

ops, like, there's, there's a vision

739

:

of ops where it's more, we own certain

things like we're custodians of, of data

740

:

or of analytics, but we're very much

741

:

In a, in a sort of client service model

where we respond, it's like, I'm your ops.

742

:

Hey Jon, tell me what you wanna achieve.

743

:

I'm gonna help you get there.

744

:

You gimme requirements.

745

:

I'm gonna build it for you,

make sure it works well.

746

:

But I'm not necessarily helping you

define those requirements or that

747

:

strategy or defining what they should be.

748

:

And then I think there's a vision

of ops where it's more like, I'm

749

:

gonna work with you to help, you

know, be that kind of . Copilot, if

750

:

you will, on defining that strategy,

maybe challenging certain things.

751

:

Hey, should we actually

target the segment?

752

:

Or, you know, that that higher

level, let's say higher,

753

:

that other level of thinking.

754

:

Do you see ops functioning in

that way in your experience?

755

:

Should they, is it a helpful thing or not?

756

:

Jon Miller: Yeah, I mean, in a perfect

world, I mean, I think that's what

757

:

All the ops organizations are to

and attempting to do To, to be, be

758

:

a partner in strategy and planning.

759

:

You know, so I, I would ask the question

the other way around, if you're not doing

760

:

that, why and what, what needs to happen?

761

:

Justin Norris: Yeah, those

are gonna be my follow-up.

762

:

Then.

763

:

What do you see as being

some of the obstacles?

764

:

I mean, I have thoughts on it too, but

I'm curious from your point of view,

765

:

like what, what is maybe a good way is

what, what are limiting ops teams today?

766

:

What should they think about

to help elevate themselves?

767

:

Jon Miller: think, do think it's harder

when you have a separate marketing ops

768

:

versus sales ops, you know, so I think

having a strategic rev ops can make that a

769

:

more valuable kind of strategic function.

770

:

The only other limitation

probably just ends up being,

771

:

you know, self-imposed, right?

772

:

I mean, we're all running around so

fast, so hard with so many to-dos on

773

:

our plates, know, that are not just

like nice to haves, but are must-dos.

774

:

Like sometimes for all of us, it

can be hard to kind of step up and

775

:

make the time to be more strategic.

776

:

Justin Norris: I, I think that that would

be where my my guess would be as well.

777

:

In terms of the biggest issues,

I think for so long, marketing

778

:

ops has dealt with like barrage

of requests and fielding things.

779

:

And when you do that for a

while, you're just like, tell

780

:

me, you know, give me your specs.

781

:

I'll build it for you.

782

:

I'll do what you need.

783

:

But you have very, like you said,

very little time to think about well

784

:

what should we actually be doing?

785

:

And, and feeling like you have

the space to, to challenge that.

786

:

Maybe the, the good question to end

on then perhaps would be what's next.

787

:

do you see Do you see a b m as

kind of being like, this is the,

788

:

this is sort of the right motion.

789

:

We're just gonna continue to evolve here.

790

:

Do there's product led, there's

near bound, there's always like

791

:

another thing that's coming.

792

:

Do you see G T M continuing

to evolve in that way?

793

:

Or what?

794

:

What do you kind of see

coming around the corner?

795

:

Jon Miller: I mean, I think it kind

of goes back to, you know, that

796

:

these things aren't black and white.

797

:

You know, and that ultimately, I think

we all have a go to market and, you

798

:

know, each company's go to market

will sort of probably, you know, be

799

:

slightly nuanced based on its customers.

800

:

Its average deal size.

801

:

I think to a degree its uniqueness and

differentiation in the marketplace.

802

:

Its level of product market fit, you

know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

803

:

I think, you know, the biggest

difference between traditional demand

804

:

gen and a B M really historically was

the focus on leads versus accounts.

805

:

You know, I think no matter what

your go-to market is in B two B,

806

:

we're going to increasingly see the

conversation landing on buying groups.

807

:

It's not leads, it's not accounts,

it's buying groups, you know you

808

:

know, than leads, smaller than

809

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm

810

:

Jon Miller: if you will.

811

:

You know, I think the big disruption

we're all sort of waiting to

812

:

really understand is gonna be

what does AI bring to the table?

813

:

You know, and, and the reality

is that you af remember AI's been

814

:

around and go to market for a while.

815

:

I mean, everything demand-based

does with predictive analytics

816

:

Justin Norris: Right.

817

:

Jon Miller: data.

818

:

Even our ad bidding is AI powered.

819

:

But the new stuff is the generative ai.

820

:

You know, I, I think.

821

:

We will at some point see

generative ai, creating customer

822

:

communication, personalized customer,

comma, lemme try that one again.

823

:

Personalized customer

communications at scale.

824

:

But in some ways I don't even think

that's where like I'm less excited

825

:

that than I am about will we see

new user interfaces for the tools?

826

:

You know, interesting implications

for ops professionals.

827

:

What happens when you don't need

to know how to build a Marketo

828

:

smart list you can just type, oh,

I want this in English language.

829

:

You know, gimme a list of all the people

who've done this and not this and live

830

:

in this area and blah, blah, blah.

831

:

Justin Norris: Yeah,

832

:

Jon Miller: that the AI kind of creates

that for you, and then you can chat with

833

:

it and say, oh, you know, reduce that

by, you know, 10% by adding this filter.

834

:

And it does that, you

know, so, so I, I think

835

:

Justin Norris: I.

836

:

Jon Miller: will see an

evolution on the technology side.

837

:

Perhaps driven by.

838

:

Different kinds of user interfaces.

839

:

Justin Norris: I agree with you.

840

:

I think the things that are like

efficiency plays or things that are

841

:

programmatic or, you know, translating

complex technical activities into

842

:

more verbal instructions seems

tailor made for what AI can do.

843

:

For the generative part, I, I still remain

skeptical that a language model will

844

:

create, you know, a definitive guide that

has the original insight that, you know.

845

:

Like, like it could take your definitive

guide and create a new one, but could

846

:

it create the first one, will it

create the novel thing that people

847

:

are excited about and want to read?

848

:

It's, it's hard to imagine.

849

:

Jon Miller: But, but, but, but, but

will we see, you know, right now, like

850

:

when you do an email blast inviting

10,000 people to a webinar and

851

:

everybody gets the same email, right?

852

:

And will we see a world where,

you know what, your email is maybe

853

:

slightly different from mine because

we're slightly different people, you

854

:

know, that I could see happening.

855

:

Justin Norris: Hmm.

856

:

Based around like verticalization

or prior activity or

857

:

Jon Miller: Yes, yes,

858

:

Justin Norris: nice, nice

weather up in you know,

859

:

Banff.

860

:

Jon Miller: I mean, maybe, maybe, but,

but probably less that and more just,

861

:

you know, title industry persona,

862

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

863

:

Jon Miller: activity.

864

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

865

:

Well, we'll be watching

eagerly to see what happens.

866

:

Jon, thank you for everything you've done.

867

:

You've been a big part of my career

in terms of what you've built with

868

:

Marketo and, and what's given me so

appreciative of that, and appreciative

869

:

of you taking the time to speak today.

870

:

It's been super interesting.

871

:

Jon Miller: Fun stuff to talk about.

872

:

Thanks for the questions.

873

:

Justin Norris: All right.

874

:

All the best, Jon.

875

:

See you.

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