Episode Summary

Join Harry Duran, host of Vertical Farming Podcast, as he welcomes to the show co-founders of Vertical Harvest, Nona Yehia and Caroline Croft Estay. An architect and entrepreneur, Nona conceptualized and built Vertical Harvest, the first vertical hydroponic greenhouse in the world. Combining her expertise in behavioral health and experience in training and case management, Caroline crafted and implemented the innovative “Grow Well” employee model at Vertical Harvest. In today’s episode, Harry, Nona and Caroline discuss the inspirational work they are doing to bring architectural, economic, and social innovation to communities nationwide. Their mission is to bring meaningful employment to underserved populations and educate communities on how good jobs help differently abled individuals to thrive.

Episode Sponsor

CULTIVATD

Key Takeaways

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• 03:05 – Harry welcomes to the show, Nona Yehia and Caroline Croft Estay, who share the story of how they met and the work they’re doing at Vertical Harvest
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• 09:27 – The origin story of Vertical Harvest
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• 15:39 – Caroline talks about her vision for diversity and inclusion at Vertical Harvest
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• 19:22 – How Nona and Caroline became ‘unexpected farmers’
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• 24:07 – Caroline talks about the ‘Grow Well’ model they’ve developed at Vertical Harvest
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• 28:02 – Caroline and Nona reflect on the passion they share for working with those with disabilities
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• 35:44 – Nona talks about a powerful life lesson she learned early on
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• 37:51 – Caroline shares why her father was such an influential person in her life
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• 41:01 – Nona and Caroline talk about the importance of representation in the vertical farming industry
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• 49:43 – What excites Nona and Caroline the most about the future of Vertical Harvest
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• 56:33 – A little known fact about Nona and Caroline
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• 58:34 – Harry thanks Nona and Caroline for joining the show and let’s listeners know where they can learn more about Vertical Harvest and connect with Nona and Caroline
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Tweetable Quotes

“We like to say at Vertical Harvest that necessity is the mother of invention. And it does bring people together to think innovatively, as Caroline has always done, and to come together to really focus on solutions.” (06:17)

“When it was just about food, I was like, ‘This is a cool idea. I’m excited to be a part of it.’ But when it was about food and futures, something that is so personal to me and to so many people in our country, it really became a must. It wasn’t an option anymore; we had to follow through on it.” (08:35)

“We’re talking about things that aren’t typically talked about in a workplace all the time. And we’re talking about it with an inclusive, integrated workforce, which is even more mind-blowing.” (25:16)

“We say, ‘different abilities’ and ‘people with disabilities.’ And I want to explain that. This summer we were really digging into our language and labels and I thought, ‘why am I picking what it is. I’m gonna poll all of our employees with disabilities, which do you prefer being called?’ And it was a fifty-fifty split.” (29:20)

“If you take the time, if you slow down, if you pay attention, everybody can teach you something.” (32:14)

“What is equity for people, whether it is disabilities or people of color? where are these barriers? They’re everywhere.” (45:41)

“What we are doing at Vertical Harvest has the potential to change so many lives, and not in the warm and fuzzy feeling way. It’s a solution for a history of inequities, and no opportunities, and keeping people victimized.” (52:44)

Links Mentioned

Nona’s LinkedIn

Caroline’s LinkedIn

Vertical Harvest Website

Vertical Harvest Facebook

Vertical Harvest Instagram

Sponsor Info:

Cultivatd Website

Cultivatd Instagram

Cultivatd’s Twitter

Cultivatd’s Facebook

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Mentioned in this episode:

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or click the link in the show notes. I'm going to poll all of our

employees with disabilities. Which do you prefer being called? Do you like

different abilities or people with disabilities? And it was a 50/50 split,

which I love though, that they got to show up and say, and guess what?

We can talk about it.

Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations

with fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech

visionaries. Join us every week as we dive deep into the

world of vertical farming with your host, Harry Duran.

Vertical Farming Podcast, Season 3. Welcome back. If this is your first time listening,

you're in the right place. It's the show where we interview fascinating CEOs and founders

of the leading vertical farming companies from around the world. I'm your host,

Harry Durand. In case you missed last week's episode, we had a conversation

with Nico Kivioha, CEO of NetLed. This week, I have the

pleasure of speaking with 2 co-founders, Nona Yehia and Caroline

Croft-Este, co-founders of Vertical Harvest. An

architect and an entrepreneur, Nona conceptualized and built Vertical Harvest,

the first vertical hydroponic greenhouse in the world. She combined her expertise in

behavioral health and experience in training and case management While Caroline

crafted and implemented the innovative Grow Well employee model at Vertical

Harvest. In today's episode, we discuss the inspirational work they're doing

to bring architectural, economic, and social innovation to communities

nationwide. Their mission is to bring meaningful employment to underserved populations

and educate communities on how good jobs help differently

abled individuals to thrive. This episode is also brought to you by the

Vertical Farming Weekly newsletter. If you haven't already, sign up at

verticalfarmingweekly.com to be notified new episodes go

live, as well as a recap of the happenings in the world of vertical farming.

If you enjoyed this episode or past episodes, I'd love it if you leave a

rating and a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfb.

I'd love to read yours out next. Okay, let's get into this conversation with Nona

and Caroline. So Nona Yahya and Caroline

Croft-Este, co-founders of Vertical Harvest, thank you

both for joining me on the podcast. Thank you, Harry. We're excited to

be here. Yes, thanks, Harry. So where are you both in the world as of

this recording? We're— I'm

timestamping this. This is April 2021. It's been quite a year

for a lot of people. So I'm just always curious where you're at in the

world right now, Nona. Well, we're in Jackson Hole.

I can't speak for Caroline. We just did come return, both of

us together, for after our first business trip after a whole year.

But we are now both where we unexpectedly

live, both of us. And you

said unexpectedly, so I'll start with you, Nona. How

did you— actually, what would be better, I think, and more interesting is

the story of how you both met. So who's got the best version of that?

Nona's the best storyteller. Oh, I was gonna have you do it.

Like, no, it's a great story. No, you go

ahead. Well, gosh, Nona and

I have, uh, we feel like we've been friends our whole lifetime,

but it was 2008, 2009.

Is that the right timing? It's funny with the pandemic, I feel like

it's been the longest year of a decade. So

time is expanding, but we met. I,

well, see, this is where I'm going to just get into the whole story. So

I am a case manager and an independent provider for

adults and kids with disabilities in Jackson, Wyoming. And I've been

doing that since 1999. And my job is

to advocate and provide one-on-one services. at

home and then in the community. And around

2008, 2000— yeah, 2007,

2008, several of my clients I was

working with were about to age out of the school system.

And when that happens in the world of disability, it's like falling

off a cliff because there's really not much employment

services, day services. And so I was

just doing my normal thing of being very creative

and thinking outside of the box. of what other kinds of

work could I create or come up with for my clients?

Because working at a fast food restaurant 2

hours a week wasn't going to cut it. You know, that's not what they wanted

to do. Long story short, through an

idea of compost pickup, one of the parents

gave me a name of a woman named Penny McBride. I

cold called her and just said, started talking

about this odd idea of compost. And anyway,

she then said, well, we have this. She started talking about a garden

and having a greenhouse. And

Nona, do you want to intersect here, Nona? Sure.

Yeah. So, you know, at the same time really working

in, I think if we all put ourselves back to where we were in

2008, 2009, you know, it was on the tail end of a global

recession. And I often say, you know, we like to say

at Vertical Harvest that necessity is the mother of invention, and it really does

bring people together to think innovatively, as

Caroline has always done, and to come together to really

focus on solutions. And I'm an architect by trade.

I never set out to be a vertical farmer. I know Caroline didn't either.

And, you know, but we were two passionate

citizens of, you know, a community that we loved very

much and that we saw even in one of the most

affluent communities that, you know, there were some problems

here and access to employment was one of them. I

have a brother with developmental disabilities and have grown

up being an advocate like Caroline is before I even understood what

the word meant, you know, understanding that he had so many gifts

to give to the world, probably more than I do, but that the world wasn't

ready to receive them. So I'd been working with Penny

really on focusing, you know, we're all foodies and

really focusing on how do we really

substantially bolster the local economy here in Jackson

Hole. We have a 4-month growing season.

Like many communities, urban centers, which

Jackson is not an urban center, but it performs like one, that we

import most of our food. And so we wanted to address that. And so we

came up with this idea of a greenhouse. But when we met

Caroline, we didn't have a site. We didn't have a scale of

greenhouse. You know, Jackson, also because of the

amazing presence of the national park, 97%

of our developable land is already in use, and any public or

private land is really expensive. So we were looking, can we put

it on top of the grocery store? Can we— what can we do? You

know, and so we had talked to a lot of people, and that's when Caroline

found Penny. And Penny said, hey, you know, I talked to this woman Caroline.

She's looking to employ people with developmental and

intellectual disabilities. And boom, I was in. I was like, I think that's

when I knew this was my future. Yeah. And it

really, I think, focused us on being

result-driven, saying this has to happen. Like,

when it was just about food, I was like, this is a cool idea. I'm

really excited to be a part of it. But when it was

about food and futures, something that's so

personal to me and to so many people in our country, it really

became kind of a, a must. It wasn't,

it wasn't an option anymore. We had to follow through with it. And I

think that's what leads to our beautiful friendship and, you

know, our ability to— we still follow that passion

and that, and that knowledge that this is a model

You know, that not only can help our community but others as well.

And we're very just excited to be able to kind of steward

it to other communities. The way you describe it, it almost

sounds like a calling. Yeah, sometimes it feels that way,

Harry. Definitely, definitely. So

Caroline, then how does this become what is,

you know, eventually leads to, yeah, to Vertical Harvest? Wow.

Well, it took— we opened our doors in 2016.

So from 2008 until that time

of, you know, just— and I came in in the beginning, but my—

the idea of the employment model wasn't going to come until later. So

Nona did— I mean, Nona and Penny did a lot of the

backend work of getting this dynamic, innovative

idea off the ground. in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

So, Nona, do you want to share anything about that before I— Well,

you know, I think, like I said, we— none of us set out to be

vertical farmers. And slowly after the 3 of us came together, or

shortly after the 3 of us came together, there was an

infill piece of property on the south side of our downtown parking

garage here in Jackson Hole. The parking garage was built to

support the Center for the Arts. Many communities have you know, these

albatrosses in their communities. And so imagine Jackson Hole, we have

a brutalist parking garage in the middle, in the heart of our downtown.

And so the community had left a piece of land over to say,

you know, what could, what could happen here? Can it be a dog park? Can

it be housing? What can it be? And so they put out a request for

proposal. The town councilman that introduced us to the piece of

property that was very small, only a 10th of an acre, He's like,

ladies, maybe you could put a hoop house up and extend the growing

season, you know, by a couple of months and employ a few people.

And, you know, we did scratch our head. We really are like, well,

you know, what do we do here? It's very unusual to

develop anything on this size parcel. And I think that's

where, you know, my background as an architect came in.

And really, you know, understanding that architecture can

be much more than what it appears in its built forum, right? It is

at its best a vehicle for change. And in order to do

that, you have to push boundaries. And so, you know, we came

together and we said, you know, what do we really—

what really brings us together? And it was really the idea of

impact. We wanted to have as much impact on our community as we possibly

could. So we said we wanted to grow as much food as possible. We wanted

to employ as many people as possible. We want to do both

year-round. And that's really where the idea to go up came from.

It kind of became like, duh, like, you know? And so

now, a 10th of an acre, we grow the equivalent of 10 acres worth of

food for our community year-round. Wow. And are able to

employ all together with our management company

and the greenhouse, 50 people, half of which have some sort of physical

or intellectual disability. So we feel like, you know, we've

made a significant impact on our community. community. And

it has been such a journey, especially since we

had no playbook. You know, we were— we are the first and only

really vertical greenhouses that stacks 3 greenhouses on

top of one another. We are one of the only

farms in this fast-growing industry that has a social

component to it. So we were groundbreaking

in many different kind of parallel tracks.

All of us, you know, learning trial by fire. And I think

that has contributed substantially, that kind of beginner's mindset

contributed substantially to who we are today.

Where were you looking for inspiration at that time? Was there

industry events you were attending? Was it all literally like figuring out as

you go, or what was happening? It was the dawn

of, you know, vertical farming. We did what anybody does

when you see a new idea, you Google it, you

know. And so I saw something that I was very comfortable with, which

was, you know, avant-garde renderings of what a vertical

farm could be. And it came from a gentleman

who's really the godfather of vertical farming, Dickson Despommiers, who had a

studio at Columbia University. It's my alma mater.

And so Jackson Hole sometimes can be—

it's for an incredibly small place, it can act as a Strange

crossroads. I was designing a house at the time

for the head of immunology at Columbia,

and he shared an office with Dixon.

And so he made an introduction. Dixon, when he heard about our

plans, was over the moon. If you know Dixon, he has so much energy and

love for this topic. And he said to me, and he always, you

know, I'll never forget it. He said, you know, if you

ladies are able to pull this off at 3 stories, imagine the learning that

could come of this. You could feed Jackson Hole. Can you feed big

cities? That's my dream, and I want to share it with you. And, you

know, I think what he did was plant the idea that this was a

model that could be replicated. So from the beginning,

you know, from my perspective, in terms of creating the

ecosystem that could grow the plants and Caroline's

perspective for growing the people, we always knew from

the outset of our work that we wanted to scale and

replicate this. And that was thanks to Dickson. And then

because of Jackson, we were introduced to Danish

engineer that was, you know,

really the world's foremost hydroponic engineer. And

He helped us, you know, take a lot of

the experiments that we had been pushing on our own and really bring

expertise and knowledge. You know, the Dutch have been

hydroponic farming for generations, and really, you

know, expertise is the name of the game here. So

that is the early onset. And then as soon as we

kind of got that structure in place, that's when Caroline was

able to start to understand what this

farm would look like and what this operation would look like. But we had

no idea what it really looked like until we got in there. So Caroline, when

you get to this point, I imagine it's hard enough to figure out what an

organization like this would look like in a regular industry, but

you're also learning the industry at the same time. You're probably trying to figure out

what type of employment model would suit like the vision that you had in

mind. So can you talk a little bit about what's going on through your mind

at this time? So at this time, you know, I'd been working with this

population for almost 2 decades. So, you know,

my engagement, my passion, my love for what I

was doing, and also really seeing that need for

advocacy. And, you know, we do such a great

job taking care of people with disabilities from 0 until

18. And then after that, literally, you are on your own, from

navigating the Social Security benefits to

employment to medical services. I mean, across the board,

it really goes from care to no care. And if you

don't have a good support system or guardians,

you're really in another category of, yeah, being

unsupported. So I think that always is what just

grew in my heart. And that was a subconscious kind of

drive and desire to do something bigger. And so when we

opened our doors in March 2016, I knew

I had to make this work for Johnny, for Sean. I just

had to. It had nothing to do with how it would look on me, but

I had to do it for them. And I do believe, I mean, it is

such a powerful story of how this all came to be in the

beginning, that passion, that drive, you know, Nona's

drive from being a sister, having a brother with a

disability. It was just, it was amazing how that

Then lined up the right people to come in at the right time to give

us the expertise. And so, you know,

from that moment on, that first year, it was just

us all learning the greenhouse, learning how to put together

teams. We had a little bit of training before. We did some

training at a local agency with like a hydroponic

table and trying to learn about what hydroponics is. And

by the way, we killed everything. Everything.

I mean, when I talk about this, it really

is truly amazing because there wasn't anything. And there

was people with disabilities were employed in businesses, but typically it's

one person. So there was no other company I knew of

that— I mean, there isn't— that was truly inclusively employed.

So in the first 17 months, Some of the plants were dying.

We were trying to figure out the whole machine of the

greenhouse and all the people that we had employed

were thriving. And typically in

this world of neurodiversity, if you are on the autism

spectrum, say, you would want to be in a

workspace that's quiet, that has a

sequential schedule. I couldn't do that in the beginning. You know, it was

just everybody, all hands on deck. And so I do

believe that really natural just push into an

experience and something that everybody in there

wanted and desired and got an opportunity to have

was also that momentum forward. So it, it kind of, it took

away barriers for all of us. And then what we were able to

put together was a great growing system as well as a

model called the Grow Well Model, which is our employment model.

And that literally naturally developed through

those first 17 months. Definitely want to hear— we'll come

back to GrowWell because I want to hear more about that, Caroline. So Nona,

how do you think about— and maybe both of you can answer this— the team

you'll need to build and grow this,

knowing that you probably have to hire subject matter experts? And what experience do

you draw on to decide who to hire when, how quickly to

hire. You know, all these things are fascinating for me as an entrepreneur as well.

So I'm just wondering how you're thinking about— you were thinking about tackling that problem

in those early days. Well, it's so funny, Harry, because that was the other

community problem. You know, there was the unemployment rate for people with

intellectual disabilities that was quite high in Jackson Hole, which is

why Caroline was pursuing the work that she was pursuing. But, you know,

I moved from New York City to Jackson Hole

in 2003, started an architecture firm here.

And became a part of this burgeoning local

business economy, right? Before that, you know, Jackson was a little

sleepy, right? But it was really on its way.

But one of the things that the community was struggling with

and business owners were struggling with is

the fact that people don't come to Jackson Hole to develop careers. They

come here to ski, to have a good time, to enjoy the landscape, and

they go home. And they go back to, you know, do their internships. And

after they've— Back to New York City. Yeah, exactly. And

so, you know, that was also something that we were putting together saying, okay,

well, here's a population that is born and raised in Jackson

who wants to work, who really, you know, beyond just

entry-level work, who wants to not have just a job, but really the reward

and, you know, the commitment of work. And so can we put these 2 things

together. So that was, you know, the real beauty of, I think,

Caroline and, and our understanding of what that personal

understanding of, of what, you know, employee turnover

looks like and how you have to start from ground zero all the time, you

know. And I think to develop a model that was really

based on diversity and inclusiveness, but

that wasn't about, you know, charity, it was about a profitable,

you know, business case. So that was really exciting

to me. The harder part was finding the

expertise, right? Because if you were going to import a Dutch grower,

that's very expensive, or a startup that's not, you know, we were doing

so many things in such a new way. Right.

So we started with a great, you know, director of production

who really trained the team, you know, trained a team

of passionate, unexpected farmers. Who came

in in this very nascent industry and

learned alongside, you know, Caroline's clients

how to develop this farm. So

in this way, you know, we call ourselves Unexpected Farmers,

you know, it's our hashtag, we're very happy about this. I think

what we opened up was because it's such a new industry,

we said what's the value of bringing the farm back to the urban

center. And how can we approach technology

in a way that not only increases operational efficiency

and grows the best head of lettuce, but how can we also increase

accessibility so that anyone can be a farmer

if our mission is to bring back farming to the urban center, which it

is? So I think that was something we saw the

potential of maybe in our subconscious at the beginning,

but now as we're expanding and going to other

communities, that is where we differentiate

ourselves, where we're focused, you know, where we've developed our management

and development company to say, look, we're your resource,

but we can treat underserved, underemployed

populations as vital, you know, contributors to

the community who are not, you know, who are contributing the most valuable

commodity to any community is healthy, nutritious

food. But it's also a sea change of perception of what these

populations are able to do. And they will be our leaders of

tomorrow. So I think we saw the potential of being new.

Again, I've been thinking so much about the beginner's mindset and what that

means. And as an entrepreneur, how that can be

really, really productive. And to an extent,

obviously we need some expertise. Yeah. But now we've been in operation for 5

years and Frankly, you know, that's longer than a lot of farms.

And so we've developed a lot of vertical harvest

expertise that is scalable and replicable.

So it's an interesting question and we continue to

explore it. So Caroline, talk about Grow Well.

And was that program originated because of what you

saw or what you were developing with vertical harvest? Yeah. You know, I think

Nona talking about what brought us together from the people

perspective was a population of people. that were not

being treated equally in their lives, whether it had to do with

employment, community access, even personal

rights and relationships. So, you know, I knew this the whole time from

working with people. I had seen those

inequities and just those barriers. And so

what developed was the Grow Well model, which tackles

professional— it focuses on your profession, and I'll get into

that, your personal self, and then your community.

And so, you know, even speaking to this now,

what we've been able to do through that is empower

individuals, teaching them about their person, their self.

We have various programs that happen, kind of they're weaved

throughout the workday, whether it's a DEI program, our

wellness program, emotional intelligence. So we're

talking about things that aren't typically talked about in a workplace all the

time. And we're talking about it with an inclusive, integrated

workforce, which is even more mind-blowing.

And through that empowerment, we've now been

able to develop the community piece, which focuses

on being part of a community, whether it's

various things. We have some programs we do out in the community together. And again,

as Nona said, with this whole sea change of

perception, we do that also by being together in the

But also, we're doing education around

independence and your financial health.

Because again, in the world of disabilities, you've got your Social Security, you can

only make so much, and then you can't work anymore,

or you can't get the raise at your job. So we're really intersecting

in those areas to build that knowledge for our

employees that then can impact their professional lives.

Because a lot of times, people with disabilities, they either didn't have a job, It

was in the back of the house or it was 2 hours a week. You

can't build a career. You can't build a life working

2 hours a week. And so what we've been able to do

is customize the employment for the individual

at, in the farm. And we also have, you know, marketing, we have

sales. So it's not just being a farmer. We have employees that do

outreach. I've got a few of them working on our diversity, equity, and inclusion

program. So that, I mean, you can really diversify.

So we focus on, and this is across the board, Harry, with all of our

employees, where are your skills and abilities? And then where does the

business, what are the business's needs? And it's always an equal pairing

and one does not precede the other. So that also, I think,

has been just so incredible for the model because

we're all doing something we love, but that we have maybe a

special skill in, which keeps us more

motivated. So now everybody gets to have a pathway forward.

There are milestones to reach, goals to improve in

your department if you would like to one day be a manager. And we have

2 employees with disabilities that are now in management

positions. We have employees that have started in one

department and have been able to say, I want to, you know,

continue in this department and are taking classes now online.

So it's just been amazing to see through, and I do

believe that focus also on the

self-empowerment, being in your community, understanding your

community programs has also helped kind of seal that whole

professional career life together. The word that comes to

mind is groundbreaking for some reason. Like, it feels like what you're

doing is— it would be amazing if it was in

just the regular industry where they're in like a 9-to-5. like office job, but that

you're in an industry that you both yourselves are learning at the same

time. And then trying to figure out how you manage

a wide diversity of people with ranging skill sets, ranging

developmental needs and challenges, and then trying to figure

out where the opportunities are for those people to do something

that heretofore probably, you know, people would think that they wouldn't

be capable. of achieving, you know, a management-level job or

something where they can be working and consider this their full-time profession.

So I'm just wondering, like, where that inspiration for you, Caroline, comes

from in terms of, like, something that's your passion and how that— where that was

born. Wow, that's a good question. I think it's just me.

I'm like— and then Nona. I mean, and again, that

synergy, like, it really— it was this natural

force. And, you know, Nona and I always say this is so much

bigger than us, so much bigger than us. And I believe

too, the group of people that started this greenhouse, meaning the

employees, the team, all of us together, and that—

and we say diversity a lot, but really, and I was going to say too,

we say different abilities and people with disabilities. And I want to explain that.

This summer, you know, language labels, we're really digging

into our DEI. And I thought, you know what, am I picking

what it is? I'm going to poll all of our employees with disabilities.

Which do you prefer being called? Do you like different abilities or people with

disabilities? And it was a 50/50 split. But

which I love though, that they got to show up and say, and guess what?

We can talk about it. Yeah. We can say the word disability because

a lot of people, there's just so much, there's so many different

kind of views or perceptions around that. So

I just love that story because it was based on what they wanted, not

what I thought or somebody else without a disability thought.

So I do believe, in my opinion, people that

I'm around with neurodiversities, different abilities, there's not much

ego. There really isn't at all. So either,

you know, one of our— my coworkers, he will say exactly

how he feels in the moment about what's happening. I've asked him to go to

lunch and he's like, no, thank you. So he just shows up authentically

as he is all the time. When you have

that around you all the time, you have about 5 or 6 or 7 people

in that energy field and the rest are, you know, living

the day to day, trying to get this greenhouse going, but having a bad day.

It's hard to have a bad day when you're with somebody

working next to you who never has a bad day. Because they

see life differently or they don't see the

lower-level things that I would fixate on. And so there

was this kind of natural healing or

just coming together of a workplace.

And I think that is what then, for me, the whole

personal self-discovery, I mean, that's just something personally I

love learning about the mind, just how we work as

humans. And so why not bring it to the table?

That's what's been fascinating for me. You know, when you look at what is growth

mindset, anybody can have a growth mindset. And

so just being able to— yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, when you say anyone can have a growth mindset, but I don't

think people normally think about that unless they're

around other people who inspire them to be a better version of themselves and to

show up differently in the world. And so, you know, maybe, Nona, I'm wondering

if, you know, obviously meeting, working with someone like Caroline, rising tide

lifts all boats, right? Yeah. And so the energy level is great there. So

I'm wondering, you know, what you think about along those same lines. Like,

can you trace back to where that mindset, that, that view of how

things should be, like where that seed was first planted for you? Well, I

think it's very personal for me. I think it, you know, my brother really

taught me as Caroline was saying, to learn from

unexpected places, right? If you take the time, if you slow down,

if you pay attention, everybody can teach you something.

And there were a lot of friendships that I kind of, you know,

cast aside growing up because they didn't

see the value of that. I think I became— and like I

said, I became an advocate without even understanding what that

Right? And then I think it's kind of, as Caroline said,

it's who we are, right? And I am an architect through and through.

I'll never stop being an architect. And I think one of the things that I

really enjoy about this profession is seeing things

that, or helping people see things that they didn't think were possible

before, right? My favorite moment with a client is

when they come in with an expectation of how they want to live and And

we really listen, we hear them, and then we're able to even,

you know, present to something that they never even expected could exist, you

know. And I think once you start down that road, it's pretty addictive

to be able to help people see,

understand a better environment than what they expected. And

I think that that has driven me in every

moment of my career. And with Vertical Harvest, the

empowerment of our group is

really rewarding. And I mean, ultimately that's what we're all in it for,

right? Is that our careers are rewarding and equal what we

put into it. And I think, you know, at the beginning it was pretty

hard for us here, 3 women in Wyoming, not farmers,

not engineers, you know, I mean, people are looking at us like,

what are you doing? But I think that And a big

thing that people asked us, they're like, get the farm off the ground, start

that, then bring in the employment model. And both Caroline and I just

looked at each other and said, that's not what we want to do. And it

was hard. It was not for the faint of heart. You know, as you said,

Harry, we were innovating on so many different levels. But it's

through that magic, through that intersection of systems of food and

people, that really the culture of Vertical Harvest was born.

And as an entrepreneur, knowing that you can have the best laid

plans, but if you don't have the culture to support it, you're not gonna go

get anywhere. That's by far the most valuable thing you can

create. And it's ephemeral and it's hard for people to understand.

But I think that Caroline and I, at an inherent level,

understand that that's something that we've built that's completely unique to the

company, to the brand, and to this amazing moment for

the industry. Right? What is the value of a

farm, a vertical farm? What is the value of the

technology that allows us to address sustainability? Can it

address other opportunities like economic inclusion?

Can it address urban redevelopment? Can it address what our

civic infrastructure looks like? You know, we're asking the question today,

what is critical infrastructure in cities? And we feel that this is a

tool to answer that in so many ways. And that

if you start being able to solve multiple problems at once,

you know, that's, I think, the best you can imagine for yourself,

that you're helping people, you're creating, you're innovating,

and you're doing it authentically. And so it's really kind of

hard to understand the inception of it, but once you get there,

there's no going back. I think authentic is the word.

Nona, you said the ability to help people see things in a way that they

hadn't ever seen before. Can you think of who

that person was for you? Oh, well, I mean, I have so many

architectural heroes. I have so many architectural

heroes. I think, well, I would say very

specifically, the architects that I worked

with right out of graduate school. Raizo Umamoto.

They taught me never to have a preconceived notion of anything, to

call it architecture, to— it was about landscapes, it was about

fields, it was about systems and understanding the

holistic picture and how the small, you know, portion of it

feeds the whole and vice versa. And that is a lesson that has

served me very well. And then I think, and this is, you

know, I think a lot of people would say this. My mother, who,

you know, started as a sociologist, she was working at the Ford

Foundation as a speaker speaking on Middle Eastern women and

their potential. And then she had my brother, and he was

born a preemie. The doctors said that, you know, he wasn't going to

make it, you know, after the first year. She wouldn't believe that.

She went from doctor to doctor to doctor and created a whole

box of health It was at the dawn of the computer age,

and she looked at this box and she said, "There has to be a better

way to do this." And so, at the dawn of the computer age, she

created an electronic health record for people

you know with real health issues and mental health issues. And

for me, that risk that this is something that

was personal to her, she took this into a field that was

just on the onset, like the potential of it. You know, she grew the

company and then she sold it. And now she is, you know,

she feels like she did good, not only in terms of for her personal

story, but for the story of many people. And I think, you know, obviously

that's pretty ingrained in my DNA. That's, yeah,

that's obvious the more you tell that story. I know. I was like, Caroline, that's

what Vertical Harvest right there.

Caroline, same question. Oh, wow. So I would

say, who inspires me? Like, who is my person?

You know, my dad. And my father

was a Presbyterian minister, but not in the—

he was in the traditional sense. He was a pastor at a very

large, large church in North Carolina, but he led his

congregation very differently. His sermons

were based in stories and

just the way that he, he had these huge

congregations, knew everybody's name, developed

programs within the church that were very

innovative, like taking an annual fishing trip to

Alaska to talk about Jesus while drinking bourbon

and life. Um, so he really, he brought— Where better to do it?

Turn fish into— Totally, totally. I mean,

and, you know, so he brought— his ministry was bringing

people together and bringing real life, I

think, to this congregation or to these congregations.

And now that I kind of reflect on it, that's really what it was about.

It wasn't about religion. It was about, you know, people.

And so life for me has always really been about people.

I've always been a caregiver. I've had moments where it's— I've been too much of

a caregiver, and I'm very cognizant of that line.

But I love people. Like, I really do. And I love to

meet people. I love to connect with people. And my father

was the same way. We don't need to connect with him all the time. We

can connect one moment and never see him again, and that's great. But it is

that connection. And just, you know, his

leadership, his ability to bring people together.

You know, he passed away a couple— 2 years ago, was able to see the

greenhouse get off the ground. That's great. Thank you for sharing. And the more

you— I mean, when you both share your stories, it just feels like it all

comes to place. And it just makes sense that you were both destined to meet

and destined to work on this project together. It is hard not to

pay attention to universal forces and signs when you hear our

story. You know, it's amazing. I've never been so open. Yeah, totally.

But now, you know, when something's wrong, I'm like, okay, well, if we just

stop pushing and just see where this takes us, then that's where

Caroline, you know, said, we do remind ourselves in the

hardest times, this project is larger than both of us,

anybody involved in it. We're just lucky enough to steward it. And I think

that has helped us in terms of, you know, this is new and

innovation is always hard and change is hard. You know, there

is a lot, and, you know, even as much as, is, you know,

social impact investing and, you know, all of these

things that are coming to a forefront today, to have

that really truly— we're hitting so many

aspects of it. Sometimes it's hard for people to wrap their heads

around and say, and it's still profitable? You know, so

it's, it's interesting.

So I'd be remiss if I didn't also bring up the other elephant in the

room in this industry. And having been through through now 3 seasons of

this podcast and noticing that the majority of

my guests have been, you know, white males, um, I was

slowly starting to figure out like, oh, okay, this is something

that, you know, as someone who's new to industry, there needs to be more

female representation. And I've been obviously making a concerted effort to have

more females and people of color on the, on the podcast. But,

you know, I'm wondering if you could just speak to that and if it's something

that was obvious to you as you entered this industry and

wondering what the feedback has been and what you've seen as maybe

opportunities to have that not be the case going

forward. I'll start with that one if you're okay, Caroline.

Yes, please. I think that if we think back to

just even listening to Caroline talk, I think we are the business

people that we are because we're authentic to our passions and our

interests. and our alignments. And part of that is being

a woman, right? And so there's a unique perspective that comes

from it. I think there's also this,

you know, there is a parallel right now being set that, you know,

this, the fastest growing industry in agriculture, the indoor space,

right, is being paralleled to the tech boom, right? And I think that

that is really exciting and really challenging in the same way.

And I think we need authentic people who

are not only in it for their own company,

but this is a movement, right? It has to be, right? We have some

huge global challenges. The UN has told us that in 30

years, we have some pretty big numbers that we need to address in terms of

population growth, in terms of how we farm, how we feed people.

And the only way— not one organization is going to do it.

It has to be a collaborative. And I think, I don't want to go

as far to say that that's something that a woman brings to the table,

but I want— but I do think that it's really important to understand.

And we have to start talking to each other and we have to start

getting different perspectives and learning from different perspectives.

It can't just be siloed with one type of

way of doing things. And that's what I'm really excited about that Vertical

Harvest has been able to accomplish is presenting a different way.

We've always taken the hard way around, but, you know, this year

alone, the number of conferences that we've been asked to speak

at has doubled. You know, we are

getting written up in Fast Company and others as world-changing ideas,

especially as— The Today Show. And the Today Show in

unexpected places. The Today Show. And I think it's 'cause

we really have said, yes, this farm is exciting and

anyone should invest in this farm, it just is what it is.

But what other problems can it solve? And so we're

saying, what does it mean to co-locate vertical farms with housing,

affordable housing? What does it mean for a farm to

play a role like a public library or a community

center? How do we employ people? How do

we feed people? Asking these critical hurdles

that are typical of the industry, as, you know, how do you approach energy?

How do you approach, you know, a monocrop? Take those

challenges and having a real point of view and

saying, if you're a community impact model and you really

want to address some of these issues that are just

daunting, well, then you have to take those, you know, those challenges and

turn them into opportunities. And I don't know if that's a female

approach. It's my approach. It's Caroline's approach. It's our team's approach.

But it feels unique to the industry right now. Caroline, anything

to add there? You know, going— it's the feminine approach. And, you know,

I think of the mother, including everybody, holding that

space for everybody. And so I do— I mean, Nona, that is

what we all have, our feminine and masculine parts to us.

But really, that mindset coming in

collectively is what has manif— I mean, really

made this so much bigger today. I mean, even in this

last year of how much growth

the pandemic— thank you, pandemic, because you showed us one, we can

put everybody on Zoom and do things online and manage, not

have everybody in the greenhouse and quickly pivot and stay

open the whole time. Thank you, Nona. Which was really incredible.

But secondly, with what is

really— what is equity for people? In what ways, whether it is

disabilities or people of color, where are

these barriers? They're everywhere. And

so even this last year, understanding that to

this next level of, again, our employees and their benefits,

that's been a big thing for me. I'm like, how can somebody with a disability

get ahead if they count on their Social Security, but they can't make more

than $2,000 a month? It keeps everybody in poverty,

and then a poverty mindset, and no desire to move forward. So again,

as this last year, that's brewing, and we now

have these amazing opportunities, like Nona said, with housing,

with transportation, revitalizing communities, and

not only empowering people because they have a job, They have

an opportunity to grow, and then it's on them. And so, I mean,

that also switches that kind of charitable or

welfare system. You know, we empower our employees

by giving them the tools to be the best they can be in their

professional life and their personal life. And then we

support each other, but it's up to yourself to

move the needle forward. And I think that's going to be a

solution for all the injustices that we have in

this country. So when I hear Caroline talking, I think what we really hold in

common is this idea of nurturing people into roles. Maybe,

you know, and it's back to your hiring question. And I

think that's what we've learned is that you can take a chance

on people. And if you do, you will be rewarded for most of the

time if you have the right resources and tools. And if that's

the mission, you know, if that's the mission, if you're going you know,

to develop, you know, a farm with engineers and, you know, and

really develop the best growing system that there is, that's a different

mission. But for us, we're a community impact model, and

our mission is to use this farm to, to have as

much impact on the community as we possibly can. And we believe that

the need for this kind of farming is big enough to

accommodate both. Yeah, and that's not to say there's not a place for

heart-centered engineers. So if you're out there and listening— Well,

no, and I want— I mean, yes, there's a lot. Engineers are my

best friends. You know, no, no, no.

I'm saying that there's room in our company for all, you know,

for both, as well as in the industry. I think a lot of people

sometimes don't see those 2 worlds mixing together. But there is that

Venn diagram always of like, you know, that Strong brain, strong heart, and then

occasionally you find the combination of the two, and that's really powerful when it happens.

Well, and I think one of the most exciting things that we've realized in

developing these new farms, which are quite a bit bigger than

what we have here in Jackson, is that we're bringing on automation

and engineering and innovation in both to be able

to empower people to a greater level. So you're not just doing the same

thing over and over, but that you can actually do more meaningful

things in the community. You know, it doesn't always— I mean, in the business, it

doesn't always have to be that, you know, the

person on the line is putting the lids on the salad, you know, on

the salad bin. So it's how do you

use— again, it's how do you approach technology,

engineering, and automation to further enhance your

mission? And I think that's a really exciting So

much to cover. The time has flown by. And it's funny because

I do— for the regular listener, it sounds like a broken record because I never

know where these conversations are going to go. And I'm just always pleasantly surprised when

I just like keep peeling back the onion of my own curiosity

about learning, like, how did you end up here? Like, how did you guys meet?

And I think sometimes those stories are just so much more interesting because, you know,

we can talk about leafy greens forever, but I don't think it gets to the

core of like why it is you both do what you do. So,

but just to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit about what you're

excited about at Vertical Harvest, Nona, like what, if you could just give an

overview of what you're currently working on and what's got you excited for the future.

Sure. So much. Thank you, Harry. And I really appreciated this conversation.

It's fun. Caroline and I don't get a chance to do this with each other

very often. You know, we just got back from

Westbrook, Maine, which is right outside Portland, which will be

our first to-scale real proof of concept for the

model. You know, Jackson Hole has really been our incubator for both

growing food and futures. And everything that we're doing

now is based on that knowledge, has been incredibly valuable. So

we have a plan starting with Maine to build 10

greenhouses, the minimum of 10 in the next 5 years. Of

course, the demand for these greenhouses is much higher than that.

But we know we need to hit these first ones out of the park, right?

And so each one of them is really rooted in urban

redevelopment. Each one is co-located with housing

and other forms of urban infrastructure, such as parking, as we

were born here in Jackson. But, you know, we're on the heels of Maine

will be Philadelphia, where we were working with a Black and brown

developer. a TPP capital, to bring urban

agriculture to what they're conceiving of as a wellness neighborhood

and what it means to bring health to underserved communities.

We're working on a project in South Side of Chicago that is

farm in an affordable housing development. That was a partnership

with National Affordable Housing Trust, Mercy Housing,

and Fannie Mae. And then, you know, the list goes on.

And we What has been exciting is that the model that

we're creating in Maine, urban

municipality leadership has been saying,

look, we have a surface parking lot. We don't know what we want to

develop. We want to bring development to our town. Can you replicate

what you've done in Maine? So we've put together a team that we hope can

take that model and quickly replicate it responsibly.

across. We do believe it's a national model and we're putting all of our

efforts in expanding. So it is a

lot and it is very exciting, but it's

challenging. Of course, it's all, you know, expansion always is,

but we have a great team. I mean, Caroline and I are, you know,

you're scratching the surface with the team. I mean, you're only as good as your

team. And I think again, back to this idea of culture,

that everybody who works at Vertical Harvest has,

I think, that engineering brain and that heart brain, and

is guided by both. And I'm glad you brought that up, Perry, because I think

that's something that I'll use. It is very much who we are. Yeah.

Caroline, I'm wondering, as you think about all this growth

and obviously maintaining what you've built in Jackson

and the Grow Well model, how do you think about that from a scaling

Well, I mean, what we are doing at Vertical Harvest

has the potential to change

so many lives and not in the warm and fuzzy feeling way,

but it's a solution for a

history of inequities and no

opportunities and keeping people

victimized. And so, So that blows my mind. Okay.

That just takes me— it blows me away when I think about

how big this could be for our country.

Right. I'm really excited because through the

last few years and developing the programs,

trialing them, I have metrics. We have— I've been able

to say these are the core programs for Grow Well that

truly knit together this culture. and this foundation.

So when we go to Maine, they will have those core programs

to grow their own culture based on

these dynamics. So that's really— Well, and

I think Caroline hit on a key point that I really want to drive home.

You know, we put together a social impact report working with a group called Social

Finance. And I think we hit, you know, 9 of the

UN sustainability goals. So we've created an international

metric that we'll be, you know, developing through a live

dashboard that really says, here is

what we're doing on the business level, and side by side, here's what we're doing

with the social impact. And I think that what, you know, we've gotten, we've heard

a lot about ESG investing right now. And, you know, and then, and

because of COVID and prior to COVID, of course, it's really

what people are focusing on. And what we hear most is,

A business is either focused on the environmental or the social, but

it's really hard to put them together. And Vertical Harvest does that. And I

think that Caroline's real, you know, obviously her energy and her

passion, you could feel it probably through the airwaves, right? You know,

know who Caroline is. But what's so critical is that, again,

back to that engineering brain, we have the metrics and the

milestones in order to create a system that is replicable. And

scalable as we go across the country. And we are starting to

have confidence in that as it plays out and to really, and

to bring in expertise and strategic

partnerships with all of the organizations on the ground

to make sure that we're not reinventing the wheel, but all we're doing is

supplementing the services and the holistic health services,

the employment services that are on the ground. So we're

not a company that comes in and says, oh, here we are, we're Vertical Harvest,

we're here, look at all the good that we do. But how can we tap

into what you do and amplify it, enhance it, and

really be part of this community network that you've already developed? And I

think that's a critical difference in the way that we're

operating in terms of, or how a business comes in and

starts, you know, working in a community. It's really

It seems like you both have like such

complementary skill sets and you work well off each

other. And, you know, as we mentioned or alluded to earlier, like it was in

the stars for you both to meet. I'm just wondering who's Thelma and

who's Louise because you both are—

We have to figure that one out. We're just not going to drive off

a cliff. Which way? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No. Definitely. We'll keep going. Too powerful women doing amazing

things. And I'm glad I was able to learn the story myself and just to

highlight the story for my audience. So I appreciate you guys taking the time. Yeah,

well, we really appreciate you taking the time to find out more about us and

really getting to the heart of it. And then giving us the opportunity to

talk a little bit about the gears of it as well.

Did I see that you were a DJ in your earlier life? Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's so funny. I moved to Jackson kind of kicking

and screaming. I know that sounds silly. I just thought I'd live the rest of

my life an urban girl. My husband and I moved here for love. He wanted

to be in the mountains and he kind of bamboozled me that we'd be here

for 2 years and then we'd go home. But I started falling in love with

community and I realized that anything was possible. And I, I was

a DJ for 10 years. Yeah. I grew up DJing vinyl

and turntables. That's why. Awesome. Oh, that's

awesome. I was a DJ for the community radio station. I had a show called

Takes One to Know One, which was— I

can't wait until I have time to do it again. What kind of music was

it? Well, it was kind of rooted in old-school punk rock, you

know. Oh, cool. And then finding bands that were derivative

of those bands today. Yeah. So just kind of

subtly kind of this juxtaposition. But a lot of

times we do just like Pure surf rock, or just,

you know, like have themes. It was so fun. Caroline,

what's a skill or a hobby that most people don't know

about? Oh gosh. Oh, what is it?

You know, I am an incredible—

I was gonna say. I have a gift.

Seriously, like, I don't— I mean, and it's not time I go into a

consignment store, but it'll be a day where I will just boom,

boom, boom, boom, boom. And then I kind of have a different outfit or

a different look, a different design each day

that just exhibits parts of my personality. So maybe that's— I don't know

what that term would be, but that's a skill. Yeah. She is a creative

force. Restoring and decorating myself. And it's good to know you both

have careers to fall back on. Vertical farming thing doesn't take off

as well. Exactly. We remind ourselves of

that. Yes, yes, we do. So the website is

verticalharvestfarms.com. And where's the best place for

folks to connect with you both? Yeah, so I think the website is a

great place to do so. And it has all the resources from our

weekly newsletter to our blogs and I think, and

great videos that you can access on learn all about the farm. Well, thanks again

to you. And then our— yeah, our social media too. That's all. Okay. Yes.

Well, thanks again to you both for sharing your time and your individual stories

and the Vertical Harvest story. It's been very inspirational. Thank you, Harry. We're so

excited for what you do. Thank you, Harry. This has been great.

Thanks again to Nona and Caroline for coming on the show and sharing their wonderful

story. Always interesting to see how co-founders get

together and what motivates them to partner up and the good

things that can come out as a result of that. And this was definitely one

of those inspiring stories. Thanks to our season 3 title sponsor, Cultivated.

If you're looking into a vertical farm and don't know where to start or which

technology would suit your needs, reach out to them today. Best of all,

their service is free because they work on behalf of their partners. Learn more at

cultivated.com, and that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-E-D.com.

Just leave out the last E. Podcast production and marketing provided by

Fullcast. Sign up for a free podcast brainstorm at fullcast.co/vfp15.

And as a reminder, if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and

a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.

We'll be sure to read those out on future episodes. Tune in next week for

my conversation with Dave Dennison, CEO of Cubic Forms.

Until we meet again. Bye. Here's to your health. Thanks for listening. To

read the full show notes for this episode, which includes any links

mentioned in the episode, as well as a full show transcription, visit

verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There, you can sign

up for our email list to be notified when new episodes are published.

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