Welcome to another compelling edition of the Bob and Ray Show, where insightful journalism meets deep expertise. I'm your host, Robert Scheer, joined by Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst with a rich background in Russian affairs. With 27 years at the CIA and a knowledge base that spans decades, Ray is uniquely positioned to dissect the intricacies of international relations, particularly concerning Russia and the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.

In today’s episode, we delve into the recent Alaska summit, a meeting many pundits dismissed as inconsequential, labeling it a “nothing burger.” But as we’ll discuss, both President Trump and President Putin emerged from the summit with differing takes, raising critical questions about the shifting power dynamics on the global stage. Trump proclaimed the discussions a success, while Putin appeared to reinforce his position of strength, particularly regarding the Ukraine conflict.

As we explore this topic, we’ll reflect on the changing landscape of power relations, the implications of Trump’s negotiating stance, and the broader ramifications for U.S. foreign policy. Join us as we unpack these complex issues, challenge prevailing narratives, and consider what this means for the future of international diplomacy and the Ukrainian people caught in the crossfire.

Transcript: Ray and Bob Show on the Alaska Summit and U.S.-Russia Relations

Participants: 

Robert Scheer - Journalist and Host 

Ray McGovern - Former CIA Analyst and Russia Expert 

---

Hi, this is Robert Scheer with another edition of the Ray and Bob or the Bob and Ray show. Ray McGovern, Bob Scheer. I'm the journalist. I've been at this for a long time. Ray was actually one of the top Russia and Soviet experts at the CIA. He was at the CIA for 27 years and was in Army intelligence before that.

Ray recently returned from Russia, where he spoke at a forum that Putin also attended and was quoted by TASS today. He has a strong international reputation for his insights into Russian affairs and the Ukraine war. Today, we’re going to discuss the Alaska summit.

I wanted to reach out to Ray now because I was quite irritated after watching CNN, where they had a panel of 12 people, including Bolton and Fareed Zakaria, who all claimed to understand global affairs. They dismissed the Alaska summit as a "nothing burger." They said Putin got some photo ops and red carpet treatment, but that Trump was essentially boxed out.

I didn't see it that way, especially after listening to Trump himself on Fox News with Hannity before he boarded the plane. He described the conversation as a "10" and a great success. He indicated that he accepted Putin's view that a ceasefire wouldn’t make sense right now.

Putin is speaking from a position of strength. The war is going well from his perspective. So, I want to turn to Ray. I believe it wasn’t a nothing burger; it signifies a recognition that power relations have changed in the world.

I remember you told me early in our discussions, "Hey, Bob, it’s like when we were kids in the Bronx, and there’s a guy on the street corner talking to a big bully. The guy can push him around, but he knows he has his brother backing him up." Now, it’s different; Russia has China.

You can't just tell China they can't buy oil from Russia without jeopardizing trade deals. So, Ray, I’ll turn it over to you. I'm not the president; you’ve briefed presidents like Reagan and Nixon.

Thanks for mentioning that TASS had a whole article on my views of what happened yesterday. I was going to brag about finally getting back into mainstream media after eight or nine years, but you’re going to ask me whether it was Reuters or ABC. No, it was TASS, the Russian news agency.

They called me up for a comment, and it ended up being about what had already happened by that time. What happened was that Putin had warned about excessive expectations a week ago.

He said, “Be careful. We're going to discuss Ukraine, but don’t have excessive expectations.” And wouldn't you know it, President Trump had excessive expectations based on his persuasive abilities.

On the plane to Anchorage, he told a Fox News reporter that he would be very disappointed if they didn't come up with some kind of agreement regarding a ceasefire.

They spent three hours together. When asked about a ceasefire, Putin said no. Trump had inflated expectations, and Putin turned him down.

It became clear that Trump no longer thought a ceasefire was absolutely necessary as the first step. Just two weeks ago, Kiev and its European allies insisted that meaningful peace talks could only begin after a ceasefire.

Trump likely told Putin, "Leave it to me. I may have to give something to old Vlad, but I'll get you a ceasefire." And he failed miserably.

Now, he’s saying a ceasefire shouldn't be a sticking point; instead, they’re going for a peace agreement directly—without a ceasefire. That’s a big shift.

Next up, Zelensky is coming to the Oval Office. We remember how J.D. Vance lit into him last time.

Vance is going to tell him that we’re done supplying arms or money to Ukraine. If the Europeans want to do that, let them.

Zelensky is going to face a tough reality. Russia has already won on the battlefield.

As President Obama stated back in 2015, it would be foolish to give Ukrainians the idea that they could prevail against a Russia that is so much larger and better armed right on their border.

This is Biden's war. And Trump has a way to deflect criticism. The truth is, the Ukrainians and the West have lost. Trump wants a negotiated settlement to put a favorable spin on this defeat.

He says he wants to stop the killing, which is something he often repeats.

Let’s push back a bit. You're making it sound like a football game. We're talking about people's aspirations for freedom—whether they are Ukrainian or Russian-speaking individuals in Ukraine.

This isn't just a matter of power; it’s about national identities and the pain involved. Trump often brings up the killing and the war’s ramifications.

He claims that if he were president, this war wouldn't have happened. He argues that it was not a necessary war and that there was an understanding that could have prevented it.

Now we have to negotiate an agreement that acknowledges this reality. This is similar to what happened during the Vietnam War negotiations.

This was a war of choice, and we must recognize the historical context that led to this situation.

Trump is suggesting this is the best deal available. If Zelensky doesn’t accept it, it becomes the Europeans’ war.

Zelensky has indicated he wants to do what's best for the Ukrainian people. If he truly means that, a quick understanding will be necessary.

This is not a nothing burger; it signifies a shift in how we conduct foreign policy. Many neocons can’t accept it.

If they can end this war, even with compromises, it could be seen as a success for Trump and Putin.

Both leaders are saying this is a step toward resolution. But let’s be honest: Obama refused to give Ukraine offensive weaponry, while Trump provided Javelins and bragged about it.

Trump came in hoping for a ceasefire, but Putin made it clear that was not in the cards.

Now, Trump is saying they’re not going for just a ceasefire; they’re aiming for a peace agreement.

Zelensky is going to face tough scrutiny in the Oval Office.

Zelensky will likely be under pressure since people in Ukraine are not willing to sacrifice themselves for this war.

The Europeans have convinced him they can come in and help, which is unrealistic. They don't have the resources or weaponry.

Unless Zelensky recognizes the reality, he may resist negotiations with inflated expectations.

I’m curious to know if Trump is showing seriousness about where power lies globally.

He points out the disparities between Russia and China and how U.S. policy has pushed them together.

Despite different ideologies, Russia and China are getting along better now.

Trump believes he can work with these countries regardless of their ideologies to create a deal that benefits America.

I see this as a significant shift in global relations, marking the end of the old Cold War.

I agree; it’s a tectonic shift. We’re witnessing a balance of power change with Russia and China against the U.S.

The last face-to-face summit was in June 2021. Biden was confident, but this current situation is different.

Biden seemed unaware of the threat posed by China to Russia, and now it’s clear they are aligned against the U.S.

Now, Trump is trying to navigate a very complex situation, hoping to stop the killing in Ukraine.

Putin doesn't want to push too far; he only seeks a buffer zone. There’s room for negotiation if handled wisely.

Putin wants a resolution that allows him to save face without demanding unconditional surrender.

Thank you, Ray, for your insights. I appreciate the time you’ve taken, and it’s always enlightening to have these discussions.

This wraps up this edition of the Ray and Bob Show. We’ll be back next week. Thanks to our producer, Max Jones, and everyone involved in bringing this show together.

Thanks, Bob.

---

Note: This transcript has been edited for clarity and formatting to enhance usability on a website.