In this episode, Nicole (she/her) shares about herbal support through court cases. Exploring why court cases are often so stressful and traumatic, the episode then shares practical herbal medicines that can support people to get through them the best they can.

Links & resources from this episode

• Herbal care packages - https://solidarityapothecary.org/herbal-solidarity2/
• Herbalism and State Violence book - https://solidarityapothecary.org/product/herbalism-and-state-violence-ebook/

Find them all at solidarityapothecary.org/podcast/

Support the show

Music from Sole & DJ Pain – Battle of Humans | Plant illustrations by @amani_writes | In solidarity, please subscribe, rate & review this podcast wherever you listen.

Welcome to the Frontline Herbalism Podcast with your host, Nicole Rose from the

Solidarity Apothecary.

This is your place for all things plants and

liberation.

Let's get started.

Hello.

Welcome back to the Frontline Herbalism

podcast.

I'm sorry to not put out an episode last week.

Unfortunately I was unwell and baby boy was unwell and yeah, it wasn't, wasn't very fun.

There's some sort of like gnarly vomiting kind of bug going around which, yeah, wasn't fun

and really reminded me of being pregnant.

And six months of horrific vomiting and

dehydration.

It's like a condition called hyperemesis, which is like a genetic effect in pregnancy

that affects some people and oh my God, it was awful.

Anyway, I'm feeling loads better now and it's nice to be, to be back recording the podcast.

So, yeah, I had obviously a little series diving in to different kind of nervous system

states like fight flight and freeze and shut down.

And I just wanted to continue a few more episodes about herbal support through the,

through repression, which was the kind of theme of this series.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to do any interviews yet.

I'm kind of,

yeah, up to my ******* eyeballs preparing for my best friend's inquest, Taylor, who killed

himself in prison.

We've got three week inquest coming up in

November and as usual, solicitors do everything kind of last minute.

So it's just been like very intense.

Like writing the, my witness statement about

what happened and about his life and reading other people's paperwork and the disclosure

and yeah, it's like gnarly.

And I've only got a few hours a week of childcare.

So,

yeah, it's been a lot.

But talking of inquests and court cases, I

wanted today to talk about kind of herbal support through court cases.

But I'm going to talk about the,

you know, like how a court case feels for a lot of people and what's going on and why they

can be so challenging.

And then I'm going to talk a little bit about herbal support and I will kind of say some

similar things to the herbal care packages episodes where I talk about the care packages

I send out with the solid solidarity apothecary and why I've chosen certain blends

and things.

So there's a little bit of crossover.

So please check out those episodes too for a

little bit more context.

But yeah, let's dive into herbal support for

court cases.

All right, so I guess it's worth naming that I'm.

When I'M referencing things and personal experiences and stuff.

It's from this kind of like England, Wales context.

You know, I have done sort of defendants support with people like all over the world,

like different anti repression kind of cases and solidarity stuff.

But I mean like in terms of actual sitting,

you know, sitting in a courtroom with someone in terms of that level of support and going

through that myself, like I am talking about this kind of English, Welsh context.

But yeah, I guess it's, it's not, it's not like unimaginable for people to hear that

court cases are extremely stressful.

And I know that sounds really obvious, but I'm just going to run through some of the reasons

that make it so stressful that maybe people haven't like necessarily always thought about,

you know, when a loved one is like going through a court case and stuff.

So obviously like you're constantly thinking about the kind of outcomes of a sentence.

And I'm talking here, if you're going through a trial where you've pleaded not guilty and

then you're in the kind of like theater of ******* trying to prove that you're not guilty

and having things like witnesses and evidence and all of this to kind of.

Yeah. Then be decided by a jury if you're kind of innocent or guilty.

But there are like a whole spectrum of different kinds of court cases.

Right.

Like there's also the magistrates court where

there isn't a jury, where the kind of magistrate, like the judge is making those

decisions.

And then you know, there's things like different courtrooms for people in detention,

for example, or you know, even like a mini court in the prison when you get in trouble

and you get put in front of a governor.

Like there's so many different contexts of court cases.

But I guess I'm kind of like talking here about how it feels when you're kind of like

not fighting for your life but you're, you know, you're fighting for the kind of

consequences of your, your court case, if that makes sense.

And even, you know, just going to court, even if you have pled guil and then you're like

imminently about to be sentenced, like that's also a really ******* stressful thing.

And it might be more short term than a court case that takes several days or weeks or even

months.

But yeah, I'm just, I guess just to preface, I'm talking about people that are like on

trial.

And yeah, I've done a lot of like defendant support with like quote unquote, like non

political people.

But I've also supported a lot of people who are going through the courts because of, like,

their kind of, like,

political organizing or work towards liberation in some way.

So, yeah, so anyway,

like,

even if someone is facing.

Is not facing a custodial sentence, custodial meaning going to prison,

or they're facing like a short prison sentence,

it is like, enormously stressful to not have control of your life, to not have certainty

over what's going to happen to you and what impact that's going to have.

Um, so I just want to name that even if you're not on trial for something, quote, unquote

serious,

it's still wildly unpredictable.

Like, I've seen people get sent down after

they've been told by solicitors that there's no ******* way they would go to prison for

something like this.

And they've become the kind of test case of someone that's got a custodial sentence.

For example,

I've seen people who've been told they're looking at 12 months get five years in prison.

You know, like, I've seen people that are looking at a really long time that I've got

much less, like, you know,

ultimately, like, you are not in ******* control of your life.

And that is what's really stressful.

I mean, are any of us in control of our lives

in terms of, like,

fate and all this ******* systemic ****? But you know what I mean, like, in a court

case, ultimately that power is taken away from you.

And that is what can make this ****, like, highly stressful and highly traumatic for

people.

And,

you know, sometimes there's this kind of like macho culture of, oh, they've only got like

this long inside, or,

you know, oh, I did longer or whatever.

Like, there's this ******* like macho

hierarchy.

But like,

in my experience, like, even really short sentences can be really ******* disruptive and

traumatic.

And actually lots of, sorry, trigger warning here, but like, lots of people get sent down

for very short amounts of time and actually kill themselves.

Because those first few days in prison are enormously stressful for the body and for that

person.

And there's this kind of like short, sharp shock thing where,

you know, say you're doing a slightly longer time in prison.

Like, I was in just under two years.

It did give me a lot of time to kind of like

adapt and develop my own little systems and rituals and routines.

Whereas if you just like bounce in for a couple of weeks and then get out,

like,

you don't always have time for your nervous system to kind of like integrate what's

happening.

Does that make sense?

And also,

I guess another scary factor is like, you can go in and then you can fear gate arrest or you

can, you know, gate arrest is when you know you're getting out of prison and you're

arrested on something different.

Or sometimes you don't even get to the gate.

Like, you know, the police come into the

prison and arrest you for another charge.

So it's like,

even if you're in and you're pretty confident you're getting out, there's never that quite

certainty, which makes being in prison for any amount of time quite,

you know, frightening.

So, yeah, I just want to say that, like, even quote, unquote, short sentences can be really

hardcore for people and also just like disruptive in ways that create kind of like

further chronic stress.

So for example,

someone might have waited months or years for access to kind of like social housing or a

room somewhere or, you know, a home for them and their children and then get sent down and

lose that.

So, you know, prisons, like, really contribute to like, cycles of like, homelessness and

houselessness and precarious housing.

Someone might be in a place where they've like, finally got access to like, mental

health support and then lose that.

You know, like anyone that's been anywhere

near, like, universal credit knows it's like enormously stressful to have any change in

circumstance that you have to report.

You know, that can instantly stop someone's benefits.

Someone might have spent half a decade fighting to get pip, like personal independent

payments because of chronic illness or disability.

And then because of the change of circumstance of them getting a short sentence might lose

that, you know.

So, yeah, like, any sentence can be extremely

disruptive.

It's, you know, it's worth naming that people,

you know, can lose their ******* children.

Like, children can get taken off people can

get put in care.

That can be like ******* traumatic for

children and parents.

You know, I'm not saying that's not always like a necessary thing to do if a child is

like, experiencing abuse or neglect, but I'm just saying, like,

yeah, it's really ******* disruptive and harmful when, you know, when people get sent

down.

So,

you know, and then obviously if you are looking at a longer sentence,

it is really ******* threatening to the body.

You know, like, I got three and a half years, but I spent two years on bail thinking that I

could get 14 years in prison because I'd seen three people from, from this guinea pig farm

campaign get 14 years in prison for conspiracy to blackmail.

And so,

yeah, even if you get a Shorter amount of time, which feels like a huge relief.

You will have potentially spent months or years.

And it's really becoming years now with, you know, the delays and the courts and stuff.

You've really spent a long ******* time thinking you're getting a really long time in

prison and that, you know, kind of overhangs the body, like, so much.

Like, it influences, like, every decision you make about your life.

Like, will you get a tenancy? Will you get into this relationship, Will you

start this course, Will you apply for this job, Will you start this campaign?

Like, all of this.

So, yeah, it's very kind of like,

high stakes and.

Yeah, like, I think I just want to name that.

Yeah.

Like, there can be this, like, culture in

social movements of like, court is a bit of, like a fanfare or a bit of a joke, but, like,

I don't know, like, anyone that's like, kind of able to be, like, emotionally vulnerable

enough to actually open up about how they've feeling, which I feel like, is something that

people do with me a lot.

It will, like, just reaffirm to me, like, how kind of challenging and traumatic this stuff

can be.

And it does give me a lot of despair and

depression.

When we have movement cultures that are just

encouraging people to get arrested without potentially thinking about the consequences or

minimizing the consequences or even downright lying to people saying that there won't be

consequences.

Yeah. So which a lot of their kind of, like, bigger campaigns can do when they're sort of

trying to recruit people to do actions and things.

So that's a whole other episode.

But yeah, I just want to be that one person in the room that's saying, like, this,

like, affects people and can traumatize people and cause, like, chronic health issues and all

of these things.

And,

yeah, like, just avoid prison if you can basically try and get away with and don't

volunteer yourself for this kind of, like, repressive apparatus.

Anyway,

okay, so, yeah, what else is going on in court cases?

So I think it's really important to name that a courtroom is meant to feel *******

intimidating.

Like, unless you're from that kind of, like,

elite of people who have grown up in the kind of, like, ruling classes where it's very

normal for people to be barristers or solicitors or judges or magistrates.

It is going to feel alienating and not your world, not your language, not your class.

And it's going to make people feel stupid and small and powerless and, you know, like, the

system unfortunately treats people like you're a piece of ******* ****.

If you come from like a working class background.

So yeah, courts definitely give that feeling for people.

And yeah, you know, there's like so much exclusion on so many levels.

Like maybe it's language, maybe it's like lack of affinity with sort of your legal teams,

like not having like quote unquote good representation.

You know, maybe you've just got like a duty solicitor that really doesn't give a.

If you go to prison, that puts no effort into your case, that doesn't communicate with you.

And ultimately I think the things with court cases is that like it is your like destiny and

your life and has all these like life changing effects.

But for other people it just feels like ******* bureaucratic.

Like it's just a day for them in their job.

Like it's just normal for them to take someone

downstairs in handcuffs or witness another defendant get sent to prison.

Or you know, like a judge can just be like, yep, I'll give you this many days.

And they're not the one like sitting in a ******* cage at the end of the day, like away

from people they love feeling like inherently unsafe for, you know, like a crime that's

probably like to do with lifestyle and poverty anyway.

But I'm just saying like they are created to make you feel that you don't fit in and

ultimately you don't fit in.

And unfortunately like I think there can be this like class divide between like activisty

organizer types, between folks who maybe do do fit in.

You know, maybe they've studied law, maybe they've got a PhD and whatever and they, you

know, like some people get really turned on by this ****,

by legal language, by finding evidence and reading statements and it makes them feel like

a,

you know,

solicitor on TV or whatever.

So it's like, you know, and I'm not saying we

don't need comrades that have these skills like we really do.

But I'm just saying like for most people it feels alienating and intimidating, but for

some people it is interesting and fascinating and pleasurable and you know,

they go on to like become ******* legal assistants and all of this **** because

they've like enjoyed the kind of like court case stuff.

It's not my ******* arena.

Like I'm not that person, but I know for some

people it is.

So yeah, so that's a factor.

I mean the other factor is you're just

inherently feeling judged, right? Like there's this sensation of kind of like

performance anxiety, like being cross examined.

I've never had to go through that myself, but I've witnessed it 101 times.

It's ******* intimidating, you know, like the person asking you questions is like an

intellectual bulldog.

Like you feel like threatened by them.

You go into fight or flight, you muddle your

words,

you know, like some people do really well on the stand, but most people, it's a very

stressful experience where you feel scrutinized and judged.

And ultimately you are being judged, right?

You're being judged by the jury, you're being judged by the judge,

you know, so, yeah, it's a lot for someone.

And so, yeah, that kind of brings me onto the solidarity stuff of like how if we know these

threads of what makes a court case like intimidating and frightening and difficult,

like, how can we respond to that?

And I think one of the critical parts is like not feeling alone, right.

Because a large element of what makes experiences more traumatic is feeling

unsupported.

Like it's very different.

For example, someone who has a car accident and is left on the side of the road alone,

like, you know, say it's the middle of the night and no one's witnessed it and they're

waiting for an ambulance, like it's very ******* traumatic.

That person is much more likely to develop PTSD because they're alone than someone who

has an accident and then a bystander comes in and soothes them and strokes their face and

calls the ambulance and like,

you know, maybe they have a nice ambulance driver who's loving and warm.

Like all of that will mitigate whether someone develops ptsd.

And I really think it's the case with anti repression work.

Like if people have like a strong support group,

they're much more likely to like, much less likely to be traumatized by that experience.

Which is why like court support and stuff is really, really important.

Like turning up at court with people or you know, demonstrations if you want them.

Yeah, just like not feeling alone I think is,

is important.

And in terms of like our nervous system,

obviously people are going to be in fight or flight because this experience is kind of,

yeah, life changing and the stakes are high for most people.

So, you know, understandably you're going to be in kind of fight or flight.

Or if, you know, you're quite adapted to chronic stress, you might be in a more like

functional freeze where you feel like you're fine because maybe it's like familiar or you

know,

you're very good in those sorts of situations because you've had to be in like survival mode

your whole life.

But for me as a herbalist, like, I'm always thinking, how can we tone down that nervous

system activation so that someone can be as much as possible in a more like, safe and

social state.

Because A, it's like less traumatic and stressful for someone, but B,

it enables someone to think more clearly and to make better decisions and to be less

reactive.

You know, where you're like, ******* kicking off in the courtroom and stuff, like, you

know, which, like, can be a necessary part of resistance sometimes.

But I just mean in the sense of, like, if you're kind of having to play the game and

make a certain impression to the jury and all of this,

like, you do need to, like, have a level head on you to kind of, you know, come across well

and to fight your corner and stuff.

And if you're in like, high, high, high levels

of anxiety, fight or like, that's going to be more difficult.

So that's why I love to support people with like, nervine relaxants, because it's just

going to be toning down that anxiety and that activation so that someone, like, is a bit

more, yeah, just a bit more functional.

And I think, yeah, when you have that edge of stress taken off, you get the clearer focus,

thinking, like, I love plants like lemon balm for this, for example.

It's really common for stress obviously to affect our digestive systems,

which is why in court cases people are just like, constantly needing to go to the toilet.

And when your nervous system isn't, like, sympathetic, you will.

It will make you want to, like, urinate more, basically.

So that's quite difficult for people.

So, yeah, things like chamomile or lemon balm

can just take the edge off those kind of like, guts that are going,

going bad, if that makes sense.

And also, I hate to say it, but if someone

gets sent down,

you know, it's very difficult being in a cell underneath the court or being in the sweat

box, like being in the van and needing the ******* toilet.

So if you have some, like, herbal support around that beforehand, I think that's, like,

helpful.

So, yeah, so sort of gentle.

Like, I include like a nervous system through

the blend, which has like, lemon balm and hawthorne and chamomile, which I think is

really nice to kind of like, take the edge off.

And I'm not just talking about defendants, right.

I'm also talking about loved ones and close people and anyone in that court case, like,

it's also traumatic to watch someone get sent to prison for examp simple or to have to go

through all this.

And if you're doing, like, defendant solidarity, like, you might be the person that

really needs that clear head.

You know, you might be taking notes and you

know, tracking details and what's going on in a way that will really help that person in the

coming days or weeks with their case.

So yeah, having, having that kind of clear thinking is really important.

So the thing about court cases, especially political court cases, is that they can, they

can really take like several weeks.

And when something is going on that long and you're in fight or flight like day after day

after day,

it's no good, right, for developing things like coughs and colds.

You know, court cases are often like, people generally have to stay away from home

somewhere or they have to travel far in the morning.

And you, if you have to travel to court then you're like panicked about being late,

you know, or maybe even someone is like already remanded in prison, in which case it's

a show,

get into reception in the morning and getting taken to court and stuff.

And I know you won't have the same herbal support that you would on the outside, but

yeah, like I think one of the things when someone is in that like chronic stress

response that goes one key is sleep,

right? Like sleep is really commonly disturbed.

And I keep meaning to do some more episodes about sleep.

But as much support you can get around getting good quality sleep is critical and is probably

like my main priority as a herbalist with defendant support.

So that's why I make this like heavenly lavender oil with olive oil from Palestine.

Because you know, if someone like the difference between four hours of **** sleep,

where you're too ******* stressed to even sleep and you go to sleep at 2 in the morning

and you're up at 6 or whatever.

Like the difference between that and 8 hours of like high quality sleep,

my dog snoring,

where you know, you actually feel like a human being who can string sentences together like

that is really like a huge difference.

And I think if you are the person that you

know is getting cross examined or you really have to use that kind of like cognitive stuff,

then like sleep is really important.

So when someone is in like fight or flight for a lot of the daytime, it can obviously be very

difficult for them to just kind of like easily fall asleep.

And you wouldn't have had that like rest and digest time in the day, right?

You wouldn't have had a bit of time to just like sit on a bench and scroll your phone or

go for walk in the park or have a nice cup of tea with a mate.

So those evenings are like so critical.

And unfortunately in the evenings you're often

doing prep for the next day.

But one of the mixes I include in the anti

repression care packages is like a de stress tea for the evening.

And that contains like a bit of skullcap, chamomile, lavender and some rose petals.

And again, it's like so critical because it can help someone move into that like,

parasympathetic rest and digest state.

Which means they're like, you know, digestion

is going to be better, which means they've got more like nourishment and nutrition to help

them, you know, prevent getting further, you know, colds and things.

It just means they're like way more likely to sleep well.

So, yeah, so that evening support is critical, I think, which is why I love these teas.

Just to give that body a chance to kind of, you know, process the day.

And the other thing with like long or even short sentences is like chronic stress affects

our immune system, right? And we are at risk of colds and respiratory

infections.

And, you know,

courtrooms are not a ******* safe place in terms of COVID right.

Like people generally not masking, like there's lots of people in a small room or, you

know, or a big room.

So yeah, you're really at risk.

And you know, they're all like, most

courtrooms are in towns and cities, so you've got all this public transport stuff.

So yeah, any immune support is really, really help,

which is why I include like an immune tonic that contains like echinacea, elderberry,

thyme, ginger,

turmeric, just again, to give that immune system a bit of support.

So you're not getting sick.

Because again, if you get really sick during a

court case,

you're not going to be kind of like functioning optimally to kind of like fight

for your freedom.

Right?

And also, like, you don't want to land in prison, like really unwell, because that's

like no fun for anyone.

And then the other aspect I've included is kind of just like help for the like, emotional

heart,

you know.

Like, I've talked about all the chronic stress

involved, but there's often a lot of like ******* like grief, you know, like people,

you know, will have had probably big life changes if they're gonna potentially like

undertake a custodial sentence.

Like, there's a lot of like, fear around, like

relationships and will I keep my job and all of this stuff.

So yeah, I just like to kind of give emotional support for that fear.

So things like Rose and Hawthorne, for example, are just absolute plant babes for

that stuff.

And yeah, I guess so.

Yeah, so I think all of these things like

supporting your sleep, supporting your nervous system, supporting your immune system and then

just general political solidarity.

Not feeling alone, feeling prepared, feeling well resourced.

Like imagine if every ******* working class person that was being faced with a sentence

for something class related, you know, like not paying their TV license or having to steal

food or steal a mobile phone or whatever or you know, do kind of crime to sustain like,

you know, addiction.

Like imagine if everyone that was facing, you

know, the kind of sharp end of state violence had this kind of support, right?

Like I do think it would be a different system.

I mean all of this is kind of like not sticking plaster stuff.

But obviously I want us to be,

you know, fighting the fight and fighting to eradicate these systems.

But ultimately like until we've like ******* abolished the state,

people are going to be in court, right? And the more militant liberation struggles

get, the more repression we're going to be getting.

So the more and more people are going to be going through these experiences, which is why

it's really important to have like strong prisoner support and defendant support

movements.

And yeah, I just want to make sure that we're also taking care of our bodies because they

are the ones like you know, experiencing the impacts of this state violence.

And finally like my tattoo sleeve that I got before prison says like never alone and

there's like a fox and an owl and like you know, roses and stuff in this like old school

style.

But like the reason I got that was because I wanted to go into prison with defiance in my

heart that that non human kin and our ecosystems and nature and the land like is

more powerful than these human made systems.

Like we are ******* stronger.

Like this state will have a lot of *******

power and can ruin our lives.

They can raid us, they can arrest us, they can

torture us, they can put us in prison, they can kill our friends in prison.

But ultimately like they're still ******* insignificant.

Like if you think of the like hundreds of thousands of millions of years of evolution

and, and how powerful the land is,

like,

yeah, and that, you know, plants and animals and non humans are like ultimately on our

******* side.

Like I think it is nice tapping into that

energy and feeling that ******* power like when you're in a courtroom of like actually

you are on the stronger side.

Like even though these human made systems have more power over you in this moment,

if you are someone who is ******* fighting back, like who is fighting for earth

liberation, animal liberation, human liberation, like you, you can connect with

that strength of non humans and the land and all your ancestors who've been fighting, you

know, injustice for generations.

So yeah, I just love to go in with that feeling.

And that's how I'm planning to get through my best friend's inquest is just remembering how

small this is compared to like the oceans and the atmosphere and the galaxies.

And that's, yeah, that's how I cope with it.

I tried so hard to find this example but I couldn't find it online and I just saw it on

social media somewhere years ago.

But it was this example and I'm probably

quoting it wrong.

I think some like indigenous land defenders were in court in like so called Canada or

somewhere or maybe the so called US and their sentencing got sabotaged because like an eagle

or some, or a stork or like some, some bird's nest brought down the power line like at

court.

And that bird had like a particular relationship with that group of people.

And yeah, it was just this like beautiful defiance of like kind of nature fighting back

and I just loved that.

And I wish I could find like that if you know

it like please hit me up because it was amazing.

But yeah, hopefully you know like animals and birds and everything else could bring down all

the courtrooms.

But I just thought it was like a really

beautiful example of yeah, kind of our non human kin and solidarity from them.

So yeah, so if you are facing a court case please like feel free to request one of my

herbal care packages that I send out to folks for free.

I don't want people experiencing repression alone.

And you know, I talk about all of this stuff in my herbalism and state violence book.

So please check that out and yeah, I will be back soon.

Okay, thanks for listening.

Thanks so much for listening to the Frontline Herbalism podcast.

You can find the transcript, the links, all the resources from the

show@solidarityapothecary.org podcast.