Diving Deep into Coaching Philosophy

In this episode, John and Angie dive deep into the foundations and philosophies behind effective coaching.

They explore the origins and influences of coaching practices, drawing from personal experiences, various philosophies including Buddhism and Stoicism, and the importance of maintaining human-centric approaches.

The conversation touches on the significance of avoiding dogmatic thinking, the impact of personal development on coaching, and the ongoing journey of discovering and integrating useful philosophical insights.

They also discuss the importance of clarity and truth in coaching sessions.

For those interested in an engaging introduction to moral philosophy, the show 'The Good Place' (on Netflix) is highly recommended.

Do you have some thoughts to share? Questions for John & Angie? Leave us a free quick voice mail here: https://speakpipe.com/thecoachingclinicpodcast and we might just feature you on the show.

00:00 Introduction: Diving into Coaching Philosophy

01:35 Exploring the Roots of Personal Development

03:11 Developing a Personal Coaching Philosophy

04:51 Philosophical Influences and Personal Growth

12:26 The Role of Clarity in Coaching

15:09 Ethics and Philosophy in Coaching

19:43 Conclusion: Encouraging Deeper Exploration

John,

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John: Angie,

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Angie: are you a surface guy

or do you like to go deep?

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John: Profundity is my middle name, Angie.

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Angie: That's a strange mental

name for your parents, hippies.

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John: It's just an expression.

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Angie, I love deep thinking

and deep conversation.

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Oh,

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Angie: you'll need your scuba gear

for this episode because we're

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going deep on coaching philosophy.

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John: that's music to my ears,

which I'm now going to plug

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so I don't get water in them.

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Let's start

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Angie: this is a really interesting topic

and I'm going to work really hard today at

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brevity because I could probably go on for

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John: There's a first time

for everything, Angie.

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Angie: I knew it.

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I mean, it's just coming at him.

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I could see the look, you could

see the look on this man's face.

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I just knew there was some type of

sarcasm, cheekiness coming through,

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it was about to come through.

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But seriously I really think that there's

different philosophies around how we

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coach who we are as coaches and where

we intend to go within those sessions.

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John: You know for me when I first got

into personal development I did spend a

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lot of time wondering What's behind all of

this, like where does all this cool stuff

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come from the ideas, the philosophies,

I really didn't know, cause I, I would

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say this, I'm talking like maybe late

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personal development training companies

that were around in the UK at that time,

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I can't really speak to the U S so much,

weren't so big on sharing where they got

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their information from anything, because

they didn't really want people going

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to the source rather than to them which

is maybe fair enough to some degree.

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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But I still wondered where does all

this come from where are the ideas, the

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principles, where is it all based on?

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And I got very, very

interested in philosophy.

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I've always liked that, but I got

really interested in philosophy as

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to where this all was coming from.

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And that's been quite a journey for me

that's been Eye opening in some ways,

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because I think personal development

philosophies come from so many different

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places and can really affect how we coach

or how we view our coaching, some of our

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values around how we work with people as

well, and also the processes that we may

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even end up using with people to help

get them to where they want to get to.

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What has been your insights or experience

with regards to maybe coaching philosophy?

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Angie: You know, what's so funny

is having this reflection over the

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years, I don't really know if I had

a philosophy in the beginning, right?

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In the beginnings of my coaching

days, practice, all the things.

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And I then, once I started to see big

names put out information, I feel like

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I developed a little bit of my own.

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And where I sit today, this is an

ambiguous answer, sorry, but where I sit

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today, the philosophies that I believe

in as a coach are actually a framework.

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That I was taught and got certified

in and it's why we've talked about

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certifications before most of the ones

that I have are relatively useless

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relatively But this other framework

that I use is a very human based, right?

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So for me as a coach any philosophy that

I buy into meaning that I understand it I

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acknowledge it I believe in it And utilize

it, it has to be human element developed

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without a lot of psychology in it.

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I know it's based on psychology, right?

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But I'm careful about it because I'm

not a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

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So I think that's part of it again, a

little bit of an ambiguous answer, but

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for me, anything that is good coaching

from that philosophy space, it just

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has to come from that human element.

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We're human first before we

are any role that we play.

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What about you?

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John: To me, philosophy is somewhat

about asking and answering the big

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questions, and in a way that religion

has never been able to do that for me,

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even though a lot of religion does.

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Ask the big questions like

meaning of life or some of that.

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I was never satisfied with the

answers that I got in those areas.

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And so I looked at, I

looked to other places.

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Certainly there are aspects of various

philosophies and religion that,

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that I still like and would adopt.

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I take the bits I like and maybe disregard

the bits that I'm not so keen on.

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And I think that's.

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probably what most of us do in our

lives anyway, or what we tend to do.

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I think it was when I started to discover

philosophies like that, more the sort

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of Buddhist philosophy rather than the

Buddhist religion Taoist philosophies

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and, and other ancient philosophies,

like from, particularly from, like

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ancient Rome, ancient Greece as well.

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That I really started reading a lot

more about it got very interested in

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even like ancient Chinese philosophy.

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There's so much amazing deep thoughts

out there people who've pondered these

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deep life questions and have tried to

either answer them or at least guide the

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way we think about them and I find that

particularly valuable just in terms of

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it can give you a great mindset for how

you approach the world how you think

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about things and I'll take, give you one

example of this in Buddhism is really all

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about, you want to release your suffering,

but you also want to step out of drama.

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Like one of their philosophies is like

getting rid of the drama in your life.

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I really liked that.

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I think I was in my younger days,

pretty addicted to drama and

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would often find myself creating

problematic situations in my life

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because of that addiction to drama.

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When you recognize that you can also start

to see that in other people if they're

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doing that as well You can say hey look

I mean to some degree maybe you want this

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and you're creating this because if you

don't have that attraction or pull to

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drama There's less to get super emotional

or reactive about because people tend to

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model reactions and responses to how they

think they should react and respond often

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to instead of what's really The heart

of things or they don't take that step

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back to be able to think about things.

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But yeah, I want, I wanna give

you a chance to come in there.

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'cause otherwise I'm

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Angie: No, no, no.

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And I'm listening because you know what?

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Obviously my answer compared

to yours was very ambiguous.

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But if I look at it from practices I

think what you said is very important

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that as coaches, we need to be flexible

the same way we expect or hope that

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our clients are flexible, right?

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And in that, I don't just stick to

this is it, this is the framework

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and this is what I believe in.

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If I pick up things along the way,

whether it's, I'm reading a book about

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some type of religion, Or I just recently

read Arnold Schwarzenegger's Be Useful.

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Whether you like him or not, there were

some things that were mentioned in that

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book that I thought, ooh, this is really

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John: Yeah.

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He has a philosophy, right?

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He does.

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Yeah.

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Angie: yeah.

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So it's not always what we perceive

as some philosophical baseline.

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It's where we gather information that we

believe can be helpful for the future.

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The people with whom we're interacting.

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so yeah, I guess for me and in terms

of trying to stay away from certain

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things, like I'm careful, right?

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Unless I know a client has like a

very deep spiritual belief, I need to

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understand a little bit about that.

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Even if I am coaching them and I bring

up something just as a matter of fact

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that I'm honoring them at the same

time, that's just my little side note,

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but cherry picking I think is our way

or should be our way as coaches of

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remaining fluid, remaining open to the

natural and organic flow of the work

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we do in our sessions with our clients.

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Thanks.

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Is there something that you hold

specifically that you intentionally,

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and maybe you don't, but that you

incorporate into your sessions

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as, a framework or a baseline?

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John: No, I this is a complicated

question to answer simply because,

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I am very intentional about not

being completely dogmatic about

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any one philosophy or approach.

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Angie: hmm.

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John: I don't necessarily think any one

or any one philosopher or questioner

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has all the right things or has nothing.

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There's nowhere else I need to

look, but I have all the answers or

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thoughts that I really need to have.

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Because there's so much more out there.

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So no and it's a consistent

evolution as well.

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There's, I say consistent, there's

always going to be things that

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will encourage a new path of growth

or thought or development for me.

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And gosh, this could end up, if I

allowed myself, this could end up being

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a very long episode, but I won't, I

will focus towards brevity myself.

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But I would say one of the things that

first got me down this particular path

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was listening to the late Wayne Dyer.

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I don't know if you ever used

to listen to, yeah, right.

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He used to, so many of his talks were

about wisdom of the ages, that Whether,

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whether you, shared the same sort of

spiritual approach or not, so much

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ancient or longstanding wisdom that was

so applicable for today, he and a few

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other speakers who I used to listen to a

lot really helped me in figuring out what

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was right for me and what I liked and

what I could take from that and apply.

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That still helps me probably now

in my coaching as well, to be able

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to be able to help the people who

I work with and apply some of the

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learnings that I got from them.

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I have none of the, none of it is stuff

I came up with myself, but I certainly

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probably have a unique mix of a lot

of different philosophies because,

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I've also gotten very into Stoicism,

but again, not dogmatic about it.

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I'm not a practicing Stoic,

but there's a lot of Stoic

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philosophy that I really like.

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I really loved Man's Search for Meaning.

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Incredible book and I would

definitely say that that had a huge.

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A huge effect on me and my philosophy

or my approach on life and Victor

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Frankl's stuff I've picked up from so

many different places and I don't get it

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scattered, just feel like you pick the

bits that feel good and relevant and right

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and apply them if it has benefits your

life, and if you can see the usefulness

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of it, apply it and take, adopt it.

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And you can also help other people

with it because, the whole of I didn't

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know this until a few years ago, but

the whole of CBT therapy, cognitive

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based therapy came from stoicism and

a stoic philosophy approach to life.

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And I got to speak to one of the founders

of that, Donald Robertson, who was very

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enlightening to speak to, but he was

very involved in the creation of that

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therapy, which has proven to be incredibly

effective for many people and who struggle

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with trauma, particularly, trauma in

and massive phobias and things like that

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to be able to help them overcome those

incredible benefits that can come from

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these different areas of philosophy.

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This is me being brief, by

the way, . You can believe it.

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Angie: and you guys, I'm going to say this

because I know John personally as well.

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I don't think I've ever seen

him say so much without taking

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a breath since I've known him.

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John: I like philosophy.

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Angie: But I'm, listen, and I'm poking

fun, but you know, having a passion

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or a belief in something I think

is important for us to talk about.

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I think that I'd have

intentionally veered away from.

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Now that I'm thinking about it, right,

I've veered away from specific practices.

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I, and it's so funny because the word

clarity keeps coming up over and over

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in my head, even as you're talking.

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And I think the only intentionality

that I bring, the thing that I

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do over and over and over, right?

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That I don't ever cherry pick with or

through is clarity because the idea, For

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us is to help our clients gain clarity.

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So that.

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Fill in the blank.

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They make movement forward.

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Let's just broad stroke it right there.

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And the challenge with it, but

the beauty of it at the same time

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is that clarity is not finite.

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It doesn't just happen

and boom, you're there.

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So for me, my buy in very superficial

is that with every piece of clarity

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that we have, or even our clients have.

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Because we're learning through the

process of coaching them as well.

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Is that once you get clear,

there's something that follows

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it that makes it unclear again.

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There's some piece like you could say

what do you want to be when you grow up?

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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Oh, I decided to be a doctor.

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Probably have said this before and

you go, okay, but now that's great.

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There's a step, but now what kind of

a doctor, what kind of a practice?

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Oh, I don't know.

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Again.

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You gain clarity, but what follows,

it's like the kite and the tail.

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The kite is that clarity piece, but the

tail is like never ending, it's following.

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So I feel like anything that can,

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and the word inhibit comes to my head,

but that's not really the word I'm

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looking for, but that doesn't inhibit that

clarity, is really where I spend my focus.

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That's where I decide, or how I

decide where I should cherry pick.

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Does that make sense?

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Cause you have that confused look on

your face and I'm not understanding it.

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John: No, I understand what you said.

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Just have a question for you.

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Did you ever watch The Good

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Place?

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Angie: No.

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No.

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John: comedy?

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It's on Netflix.

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Highly recommend it for you

and for our listeners, why we

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haven't already checked it out.

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It sounds, when I first saw it, I

was a bit put off because I thought

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it was about somebody dies and goes

to heaven and things go a bit right.

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That's not really what it's about.

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It's actually an exploration of philosophy

and ethics more than anything else,

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in a really hilarious way as well.

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One of the funniest things I've seen in

years, and I highly, highly recommend it.

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But this whole thing of like

ethics and philosophy, Well,

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philosophies guide our ethics.

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We want to know how to be good people.

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We want to think of ourselves

generally, most of us at least want

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to think of ourselves as good people.

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We want to live good lives.

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We want to be virtuous to some degree,

although I think that word has been

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somewhat spoiled by various political

groups over the last several years.

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But, virtuous in its truest form is

about living a good life, being good

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to people in your life and to yourself.

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And how do we do that?

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How do we avoid the traps of excess?

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How do we avoid the

cruelty to other people.

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How do we know what actually

is leaders in good life?

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This is where it all guides us to.

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And that's why I say this philosophy

aspect is so important for coaches.

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If you haven't ever pulled back the

curtain in personal development and

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looked what's behind the stuff that the

frameworks that you've learned as a coach

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to help other people with, what's behind

the teachings, where have they come from?

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Yes, sure.

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Some of them have come from religion.

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Some of them come from psychology.

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Some of them come from pretty

ancient philosophies as well.

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It is worth taking a look at those

and starting to focus on what your

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philosophy is what are the bits of all

these areas that you can look at that

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feel right and connect with you and

help you understand what it is about

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living a good life and how you can

then help others to do that as well.

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I think that's a big part of coaching to

be able to help people make, let's say the

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right decisions, not as in right to wrong,

but the right decision for them and help

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them to find their path and empower them

to be able to move forward in positive

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ways rather than maybe imposing anything

that says, no, you have to do this.

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These are the laws.

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These are the things you have to follow.

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We don't need to do any of that.

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I know this about you.

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Yeah, I know

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Angie: I know because I feel like if I

can, whether you like it or the people

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around you like it or not, if you were

to admit a truth, what would that truth

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be right in each area of your life?

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And the question then becomes

like, are you living into that?

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So my premise, everything that I do, is

about helping people find their truth.

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Because if I don't help people

find their truth or help them

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find the courage to admit to their

truths, then I can't coach them.

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It's hard to coach them because I don't

want to coach them into something that

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is a band aid or something that isn't

really meaningful or powerful for them.

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Or purpose driven.

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So yeah, we could go on and on about

this because I'm feeling it now.

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We just all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, the

truth space, and where's the philosophy

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and truth everywhere, everywhere, right?

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If you really think about it.

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So

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John: Yeah, I mentioned I

mentioned Peter Frankl earlier.

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That, that was one of the most

enlightening books for me, and just

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recognizing that, I think I used to

have a belief that purpose was one

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of those things that was out there

and you had to find it or it would

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be revealed to you and by some,

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Angie: yeah,

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John: providence that I now

believe that it's something

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that you choose for yourself.

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That is something that you have to decide

what that is for you based on who you are

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and what your values are, and decide what

you want, the purpose of your life to be.

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Of course, you don't have

to make that decision.

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You can decide to continue your

life without purpose and may

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be perfectly happy with that.

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But for those of us who are searching for

purpose and deeper meaning, we don't have

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to look outside of ourselves for that,

which I think is incredibly empowering.

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It's all these kinds of things that I

think bring that into the coaching could

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be very empowering and developmental

for the people that you work with.

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And I love all these aspects.

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I think this is one of those topics.

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It could easily be a separate podcast

just of philosophy behind all this stuff.

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Angie: Yeah.

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Yeah,

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no,

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absolutely.

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we're not

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going to do it today, but we'll

probably break things down

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along the way because I do.

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So I believe that.

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It's important for us to be able

to do that so that we can, take our

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clients on that journey and challenge

them beyond the surface, challenge

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them beyond what looks to be obvious.

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But why don't somebody gives me an

answer just as an example, if they

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give me a quick answer like, Oh,

what's the most important thing to you?

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Oh, it's my family.

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I don't believe that.

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The first answer they give me, I'm like,

mm, that could be part of the truth.

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Mm.

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Mm.

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But it's usually not their truth.

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So, oh my gosh, let me add it, come on,

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John: we said, we said, we were

talking about going deep to on today.

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And I think we have gone as probably as

deep as we can with the time available to

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us, but there there's levels of demons we

could go to, but we don't know, it might.

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It might be interesting for

us, but it might be less

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interesting for you to listen to.

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But I would say if you want a really nice,

fun, easy introduction to to, philosophy,

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moral philosophy, ethics, all that kind of

stuff, The Good Place is such a fun watch.

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But there's also a really cool book

by Michael Schur who wrote that.

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I forget the title, but it is

about all these topics as well.

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Discussing Philosophy in a more

general context is quite digestible

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and not boring, actually fun.

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And this stuff does not need

to be boring or dry at all.

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In fact, it can be

super, super fascinating.

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And you don't have to be a

complete nerd about it like I am,

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Angie: I am a self proclaimed nerd.

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And listen, but I'm glad you said

that though, John, because I don't,

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I definitely think that there are

listeners that the minute they hear

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philosophy, they go, uh, right.

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Cause they assume it's

this like deep, deep.

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We're not going that deep today.

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We went deep.

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Like we hit it hard enough, but

we don't have to keep going.

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John: yeah we certainly, whilst the deeper

dives are available, we have to look at

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what the purpose is of the conversation.

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And I think we've probably covered what

we essentially need to, and hopefully

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has at least encouraged you to pull

back the curtain on what's behind the

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philosophies and ideas of coaching

and personal development and take a

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look at that well worth, worthwhile.

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There's other aspects

of psychology and stuff.

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And maybe we'll take a look

at in another episode, but,

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This has been fun.

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I'd love to hear your thoughts or

your questions or your comments.

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We both would, you can leave

us a voicemail speakpipe.

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com forward slash the

coaching clinic podcast.

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You can leave us a quick voicemail

there with your questions, comments,

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concerns, anything like that.

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If we like it, we might just feature

you on the show and we will look forward

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to welcoming you or speaking to you

again and another episode very soon.

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Angie: Love it.

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See you guys soon.