Welcome back to the Why Does My Partner Podcast. For this bonus mini-series, were joined by Ann Kelley from the Therapist Uncensored podcast to tackle our next set of listener questions. Ann is a licensed psychologist and co-author of Secure Relating along with her wife and podcasting partner, Sue Marriott.

Do you and your partner have rituals when you come back together from being apart? Today’s question opens up our to ways that implicit memories can stir up old learned expectations of what happens when someone leaves us. If you’ve experienced painful separations in your past, your body may still be expecting that, even when your mind knows that nothing is wrong. We talk about how that could show up for either partner in this situation, and Ann shares her unique way of describing attachment styles, and how that can help folks have a smoother separation and reunion in their partnerships.

Quotes:          

“we evoke a fight sometimes because we want it to match what's going on inside…and if my head says it should be fine, but my body doesn't, well then I'm gonna go for what I'm feeling.”

Recommended Reading:

Secure Relating by Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott

Setting Boundaries that Stick: How Neurobiology Can Help You Rewire Your Brain to Feel Safe, Connected, and Empowered by Juliane Taylor Shore

Share your questions with us at whydoesmypartner.com/contact

Dive in deeper with us at our upcoming workshops. Learn more at whydoesmypartner.com/events

Welcome to the Why Does My Partner podcast.

I'm Jules.

I'm Vicki.

And I'm Rebecca.

We're your hosts.

We're also couples therapists and messy humans bumbling through our own relationships every day.

We met at a training, and our secret sauce is that we and our partners became fast friends.

Between us, we have more than 40 years of experience holding hard relational questions with our clients.

We're going to bring those questions here,

and together, we're going to take a stab at answering those questions.

This podcast is not a substitute for couples therapy.

If something you hear in this podcast stirs something deep within you about your relationship, reach out to a couples therapist in your area.

We'll

We also love to hear your questions, so don't forget to go over to whydoesmypartner.

com to leave a question of your own.

Here's today's question.

Welcome back.

I'm Jules.

I'm Vicki.

And I'm Rebecca.

And today we have a very special guest with us.

We also have Ann Kelly, one of the co hosts on the Therapist Uncensored podcast, and one of the authors of the brand new book, Secure Relating.

Hi, Ann.

Hi.

So excited to be here with you guys.

Hey, so excited to have you.

So we have a listener question today and we're hoping you can jump in with us on this one.

The question is, why does my partner get mad when I come back from out of town?

Whether I'm traveling with my girlfriends or out of town for business, it feels like every time I come, she picks a fight with me.

I have had this walk into my office a lot,

haven't you?

Yeah, what's coming

up for you, Ann?

Well, my, I think my first thought is that I'm imagining this is a woman writing about her birthday.

I'm guessing.

I'm guessing.

I'm thinking the same thing.

I'm thinking like, okay, if, if, if If her partner is mailing, going on out of town with all his girlfriends, I might see it's a different story.

Right.

Right.

Unless they have

an open relationship and that's just part of it, which is also welcome and wonderful.

As long as they have that agreement within

it.

Right.

As long

as they've talked about it.

Right.

Right.

I'm guessing, I'm guessing though, that you might be right.

And we might be talking about two ladies, um, here and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I know, it's happened, oh gosh, this is so common, where

I have a couple come in and they struggle when they come back together.

Right.

Uh

huh.

I think this is part of

connection,

I mean, and I wonder if it's part of expectations with connection too.

Because I think that at least when one of us comes home.

I can't even speak for him.

When I come home or when he comes home, I'm expecting just like, lovey dovey and oh, I'm so glad and excited that you're back.

And then if something doesn't align just right, it can like throw off that whole imaginary thing I have in my head.

That's what I mean by like the expectation of it.

That it has to live up

to it.

It's like

it's a missed attunement.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm

also kind of just thinking like sometimes in relationship when we're, when we're reaching for connection, we reach for connection through like, you know, like

the, the piece about like how come sometimes rage is a bid for connection, right?

Like that sometimes there's these different ways that our systems are kind of tuned in to, to reconnect.

And this could be a system.

That is wired in this particular way.

For sure.

Totally possible.

You know what's coming up for me is how much implicit memory is going to be stirred up around, um, uh, attachment stuff.

Because a lot of times when we're talking about Oh, what did I learn in my first beginning imprints around what to expect in relationship, especially when

relationships are in a little bit of a stress point, like greeting, for example.

Oh, we've been away from each other.

Now we're reuniting.

And there's this like repair reuniting moment.

Oh, all our stuff.

All of it.

From

whatever attachment history we have is gonna be stirred up in that kind of moment.

And so I guess I'm wondering if it's an attachment thing, which makes me think, Anna, of your

work.

Well, yeah, I was thinking, I was thinking with Vicki saying that about expectations, I'm right there with you because our implicit memory sets us up for those expectations, don't they?

Oh, right.

If I have this idea, you know, Any time we have a separation, it really does activate that core part of us, doesn't it?

It's like what we expect is going to happen.

And especially if, you know, if her partner lives a little bit more, you know, had a history of insecurity where they had to wait and watch and wonder, right?

So then when, when they, when they go away from them, they're like imagining all these negative things that is likely happening, but just also they just, they can so

easily feel that sense of betrayal already in their body, but they can't explain why.

So instead they're just pissy.

You know,

I want to slow that down.

You just said something amazing.

I felt the sense of betrayal in my body, but I can't even say.

Yeah.

Could you pull that apart for people?

And, and because I bet a bunch of people just went, wait, why would they feel betrayal?

So could you dive into that just a little bit?

Sure.

Well,

the betrayal in your body is what you were mentioning.

You have this implicit memory of what to expect.

And if your history is when people go away, or if it's really inconsistent, they're here, they're not here.

So, just in the departure, you're kind of reliving that implicit thing without even knowing you're doing it.

You're feeling the sense, and maybe you have some imagined state of, they didn't text me, they didn't call me.

They hardly, you know, and then you start, so you have all this anticipated thing, and then your rational brain says, that makes no sense.

They're just with their friends.

So I think when our rational brain says one thing.

And our implicit body, you know, our implicit memory comes out in our nervous system, feels really irritable and they don't match.

It really is kind of wacky.

And so now you're just pissy and you're grumpy, but it's not fair for me to come back and say, what the hell?

Why were you out of town?

Because my brain says you were just out with friends.

So if it doesn't make sense, now I'm just, Pissy.

So now I'm going to look for something to be mad about.

And that's what it sounds like in this question.

Like when I go out, because it says they pick a fight.

So it's not like they're immediately being accused of doing something wrong.

They just get the sense that a fight's being evoked.

And so we evoke a fight sometimes.

Because we want it to match what's going on inside and if my head says it should be fine, but my body doesn't well Then I'm gonna go for what I'm feeling.

So I'm gonna pick I'm gonna see something and that's gonna be like That's what I'm mad about right there

What do you have, right?

Oh, and you think that brings me to the other side of the relationship too, because both brains here, as we're coming back into connection,

have all of those early expectations, whatever they are true, stirred up.

So true.

Right.

And our brain has those history colored glasses on, and we don't realize we're looking through those lenses.

We don't know that, but maybe there was a lot.

of tension around reuniting in your home.

Right.

And so actually they're not picking a fight, but you're so sure they're going to pick a fight.

So your history colored glasses could also be part of this equation.

And now you're going, well, why are they picking a fight with me again?

Because everything in my body is saying, Ooh, I'm expecting this to be rough.

Oh, that's such a good point.

I'm thinking also of Like, inside of the expectations and what we expect might be rough on either side, there's also the stuff about, like, what did we, what we don't know.

Like, the partner who goes away doesn't really know, but might be making up a story about all the things that the partner who stayed is holding and carrying in their daily life.

And the partner who stayed might be making up a story about what the partner who went, right?

Like, and so there, there are these, ways that those unspoken pieces might also be part of what the reactivity is about.

Mm hmm.

Especially if, if like, you know, if I've gone away and I'm really enjoying myself, and then I have a sense of guilt.

Like sometimes when I go away, like I can act that can feel bad.

Like, I'm like, The partner at home is taking care of things so I can go away.

So if I already feel a little guilty when I come home, and then partner shows any signs of even sort of natural irritability because they've been at home, they're just dealing with natural daily life.

And now I'm really like you were saying, I'm really primed to hear, Oh, you're mad at me, right?

Because I feel a little guilty.

Primed.

That's such a good word

for it.

Okay.

All right.

Mm hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

And it makes me wonder, um, what to do.

So let's say you've noticed this pattern.

Okay, so we have some whys.

We have some whys.

It could be expectations.

It could be some embodied attachment learnings.

It could be feelings about going away and coming back.

Like guilt may be driving some of this.

So, What do we do when this is happening if you want it to be any better?

One of my first go tos in this kind of situation would be a meta conversation,

y'all.

We

could like stop everything, maybe not like at the moment of reuniting, you know when I might do it?

Before you go away.

Before you go away.

Before you go

away.

Yes.

Sweetie, I really, really love you.

And I noticed this pattern that happens every time I go, that when I come back, things are kind of tricky.

Ooh.

I like that.

I like that you're saying things are kind of tricky because it's so tempting to say, I notice when I go away, when I come home, you pick a fight.

I was . Right?

That would be really different.

That would go differently.

We're gonna,

we're gonna be non provocative.

In the way we're inviting our conversation, things are kind of tricky, and I'm wondering if we could talk about if you feel that way, too.

Yeah.

Do you notice that?

Or is it just me?

Is it that maybe I'm anticipating it being tricky before I even come home?

That's making it tricky when I get home?

Or like, are we both in a shared reality?

Totally reality.

Maybe that you're the only one who feels like this is going hard.

And then I'm gonna capture cap every, every time it feels a little hard and I'm gonna blow that up.

Mm-Hmm.

, right?

Yeah.

Right.

Exactly.

Right.

So the first thing could be to just explore how much shared experience is they're here.

Mm-Hmm.

. And then another thing, especially if there is a shared experience, you could all, you all could create together a practice, a reuniting ritual.

That may support reuniting in a different way.

That would

shift the dynamic.

I love this.

I just want to pause this on reuniting rituals.

I love it.

That's it.

Yeah.

Let's

go back because it's perfect.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know what I'm thinking is I'm thinking about reuniting rituals I have with my own family.

Um, I'm thinking about, so I have a daughter, Stella, she's 10.

Um, I'm thinking about how our ritual has evolved over time, and how much, how important it's been for her when mom's been away and then

comes back, that there's a hug, that there's not a lot of talking.

Um, Right away.

We actually just kind of hang there for a good 10 or 15 seconds and just be with each other and long hug.

And then she looks up.

She's like, Hi, Mom.

And I go, Hey, do you want to tell me anything from your day love?

And then she usually will tell me a little story.

But we've been doing some version of that since the beginning of her time.

So, Now let's picture, okay, so let's picture Stella grows up and then has a relationship with Estella's girlfriend sometime in the future.

Well, she might have expectations of hugs.

She might have expectations of not talking right away.

Right.

She might want to ritualize some future greeting in a way that matches that kind, um, really holding beginning.

And I'm also noticing how different that is from how my partner and I have ritualized reuniting because we both do have a little bit more of insecure attachment histories.

And so we've had to develop ways of greeting that are a little bit, uh, more titrated.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

So.

Usually, there's actually a little bit of a nod, not a, not a coming together right away.

There's probably a little bit of touch, maybe touching a hand or a little peck on the cheek and then a, and then a pause and some space again.

And and it's not until we're around each other for a little while that it feels okay for him.

If I say, Hey, how was your day?

And that has to do with our attachment histories.

And

so I'm wondering, wow.

If we could, if we could invite you to wonder about like what would feel supportive to my system as I come together, because I think we each have a unique as a fingerprint.

Totally.

And I'm noticing, I'm noticing in here too, as we're just naming this, that there's different kinds of systems, right?

Like there's different kinds of insecure.

So there's some people that might come back and the need is higher.

Right?

They like need to attach.

There's others that might come back and need more of kind of like the in and out kind of space that you're talking about.

There's others that might come back and just need more space.

There's others that might come back and need more of like what you and Stel have.

Or like when I was hearing that description, I was thinking of my sweet dog who like runs in to like.

to you very much what Stel does every time I come home.

And it doesn't matter if I was gone for 10 minutes or if I was gone for 10 weeks.

It's the same thing.

I'm not gone for 10 weeks.

That would be really long, but still

there's, there's others that have no idea because I'm thinking I, I, all of those sound fine to me.

I could come home.

I mean, I usually do come home and it's shocker.

Like I'm just.

talking at him nonstop.

But if I got home and he needed silence, I could go straight to bed and not talk to anyone.

Like, I really have no, no known preference is the best way I can phrase it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So notice that.

Like none of those, none of those sounded like, Ooh, that's great.

And none of them sounded like, Oh my gosh, I wouldn't want that.

So yeah.

How many people out there just like have no idea how they like.

Or they're just really, you have a more flexible style, right?

It may be from your, yeah, you've been able to just sort of feel it sort of as a, I feel kind of.

Comfortable with either way and it's not going to tell me too much information if, and it sounds like you won't assume if he's being quiet that it's about you or about.

Well, not in that case, trust me, there's plenty of times he's quiet that I absolutely think it's about me.

So I'm not going to, not that great, but no, on that one, it wouldn't even cross my mind.

That is something I wouldn't personalize at all.

So that's interesting.

What it is hard to do for

some people, right?

And I was like, I love that you like, I love the, the, what was it you called it Jules?

Like the, the pre conversation, the meta conversation, the meta conversation, I love that.

And part of what I would suggest too, is that.

Like, I love what you're saying because like not everybody knows.

If you stop and think about it, that's something really, really important.

We can't really engage in a collaborative way.

Like I think sometimes we try to negotiate too fast an answer to things, right?

And so I like to really encourage people to like slow down and I have to do it myself to go, wait a minute, what is my style and why is that?

Like that moment of self reflection.

Can help reduce it and then what is his or her style and then really actually even asking that question and communicate about it But then sometimes it's tempting to go.

Okay.

Well if you like it this way and I like it this way Then that's what we'll do, right?

But I think there's a way to really work through it on that meta level like some people you you mentioned, um, Like that some people rebecca some people would be You know I just need distance.

Yeah, I'm

thinking more avoidant.

More, more anxious, right?

Like different kinds of styles.

Yeah, in our book, we kind of named that as blue because it's, you know, it's, it means we kind of get cool.

And when we live over there, the trick is when we go away.

From our partner.

We tend to tuck when when we live dismissing or avoid it We tend to tuck a little bit more in and we go more in so that reunion takes a lot more

energy Yeah, one of the things I like to encourage How do we prime our body?

To be able to be, instead of this is who I am, know me, deal with me, it's, oh, this is who I am.

I wonder why I'm that way and what can I do to help my system?

Right?

So I love to encourage somebody who kind of lives more dismissing or avoidant or as we say it in the book, blue, if they're even just coming home from work or

they're coming home from vacation, let's say it's, let's say your partner's blue.

Or no, I guess she's the one going out of town.

Let's just say maybe by chance she lives a little bit more, has a little bit more of a protective strategy.

I would encourage, do you stop before you walk in and visualize, like get yourself caught up with yourself and be present.

What do I need?

And then visualize your partner for a second, spend a moment to visualize them and to think about them and to warm your body up.

We call it warming up blue activation.

So if you warm up, then you've probably having your head away.

They've really been handling the house while I've been gone.

And they're probably tired, they're probably needing, what are they needing or what are they thinking about?

And I, I think it's so important because then I'm, if I'm the blue one coming in, I might be ready to engage just a tiny bit warmer.

Not because I'm just doing it for my partner, but because I've warmed my own system up.

And I've like, I've thought about them and I, I mentalized about them.

And so when I walk in and I say, hi, and I say, man, you probably had a hard, you, you did A, B and C today while I was gone.

How was that for you?

And it can really make that person feel thought of and seen.

Mm

hmm.

Mm

hmm.

Yeah, I love this.

What I'm really catching in here is it's another way of doing what we sometimes call a U turn, right?

Where you're kind of taking a look at your, your piece of this, like, what am I contributing to this?

Or how am I showing up?

Or is there something I can do to take care of me?

So that I can really come in and meet you in a different way.

And you just gave us a beautiful illustration of one way of warming up in order to do that.

I love that.

Yeah.

I think of this too as, Oh, this feels so important because when we're on that blue side of things on that more dismissive or, um, uh, avoidance side of things, sometimes this

language I love though, can I like highlight your book and your amazing work on this?

Cause the blue and the red, it just.

It helps it feel such less labeling.

Oh, I have a tendency towards blueness.

It's true, right?

And one, one thing is that there's a little bit of, um, of a, um, a sense of not understanding relational joy very well.

We're not having a lot of lived experiences of that.

So one of the things I think you're doing when you're stopping and pausing and imagining what's happening.

As you're priming your system to move back into ooh, maybe relationship could serve me in some way.

Maybe relational joy could be in my body a little bit.

And I have to remind my system that that's a possibility because it's not so automatic because of my history colored glasses.

Yeah, that's a great way to say it.

Yeah.

Mm hmm.

And, and it also, I think just putting it out there, saying it and putting it in a book also, I'm sorry, but like makes it okay.

I think it was okay anyway, but I think some people might not think that that's okay.

And so like, Oh, maybe there's nothing wrong with me that I feel this way when I come in the door, because if there was really something wrong with

me, no one would talk about it or there wouldn't be skills around it.

There would be nothing we could do, but like, Hey, some people are just wired that way.

And here are some ways to work with it.

So it's a different way of looking at it as well.

Yeah, I think it's really about knowing yourself and knowing your partner, right?

And so the more we get to know that, it's not like there's not one way to do relationship.

There's a lot of ways, but we need to know like, who are the people that are in this relationship?

Right?

And what are we doing it?

How are we doing it?

What are our needs?

It's

super important.

Yeah.

It really is.

And to think about even the, the question, such a great one.

I love that they're even asking it because they're really trying, just the fact that they're asking the question, they're trying to understand themselves and their partner.

I love it.

And, and part of it is like, Oh, if I know that happens and I don't exactly know why, But I know it could have to do with a lot of the

things, you know, I can't put my finger on it, but I know it happens.

So then we might tell ourselves, you know, when I come in and I start to feel that irritability, I'm going to really give a lot of grace for a few minutes, for a little while, because We might not be

able to name it, but I know it's going to happen, but it's so easy instead to go, here we go again.

Oh my God.

That repetitive pattern.

Yeah.

You know what?

I'm noticing in my body and as you say it like that, as you even just say, here we go again, that repetitive pattern, I noticed that like

there's already a clenching that's happening in my body just at that.

I don't even know what the pattern is, but I know that as soon as I go into, here we go again, I'm going, Oh.

Right.

You do.

And so if I'm walking in the door like that,

yes.

Mm-Hmm.

. Wow.

Like what if I like, this is back to that pause.

Can I warm myself up?

Mm-Hmm.

What if it's not a, here we go again.

What if it's a, wow, I'm coming home.

Mm-Hmm.

. Yeah.

Some reason, you know what?

Hard on my part.

I'm sorry.

Some reason this is hard.

On, on.

Mm-Hmm.

on her.

And I don't quite know why,

but I'm also questioning that.

Like, I'm, I'm looking back at this question.

Why does my partner get mad when I come back from out of town, right?

Whether I'm traveling with my girlfriends or out of town for business, it feels like every time I come, she picks a fight with me.

So I'm catching that last part.

It feels like every time I come, she picks a fight.

There's some kind of orientation in here towards that expectation of a fight.

For sure.

That's a possibility.

You know what else I was thinking of is if you're one of those listeners and you're listening to this and, and, and what is happening

for you is one of those Roy Kent moments where you went, Oh, I piss.

I picked the fight.

If that is happening, that's so beautiful.

You can, you can do a priming too.

Like you could, you could know, oh, my partner's about to come home from the airport.

And you could be with your system and you could be curious about, Ooh, I can feel that agitation coming up.

I could feel that feeling.

My body feels like it's in betrayal, but I don't totally know why.

It's totally understandable to me.

Somebody might be a little bit more red.

Yeah.

Outside of the spectrum.

Am I getting that right?

Yeah.

A little bit more preoccupied.

Anxious.

Yeah.

A little bit, a little bit more.

And you know what?

A lot of folks, one of the most brilliant moments I've ever had around this was we really slowed down that moment experientially in a therapy space.

And this person was exploring this and, and he was really slowing down and being with this system and feeling into that agitation and the betrayal feelings.

And you know what he, he said in the end is, is we were really with it and he said, well, I really want to be close, but saying I missed you is too vulnerable.

So I think I'm picking a fight instead.

Yeah.

Wow.

And so his practice became thinking about how he was gonna.

reinitiate and and let his partner know.

Yeah.

That he had missed her and he ended up doing it through notes because saying it out loud was too much and so he would pass a note to her.

As soon as she walked in the door and then she would hug him and say I totally get it.

I love you.

I'm glad to be home.

Oh, that's so beautiful.

And that's it.

And that's it.

I love that.

Because he was vulnerable in the way he could

be.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, so there's lots of solutions, but we're really recommending meta conversations, y'all.

Yeah.

And, yeah.

Does this feel like a place to land it for today?

I think this feels like a place to

land.

We'll be back next week with another episode in this mini series with Ann.

Yay.

Yay.

See you then.

See y'all.

Bye bye.

That wraps up this week's episode.

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