Imagine if the way we design learning could shift from just delivering content to genuinely connecting with learners on a personal level. That’s the essence of our chat with Jackie Pelegrin, a passionate instructional designer who believes in the power of empathy and intention in education. Instead of merely focusing on what students need to know, Jackie encourages us to think about how we can make them feel valued and empowered. It’s a thought-provoking discussion that dives into the emotional aspects of learning, and trust me, it’s a game changer for anyone involved in education. Jackie takes us through her journey of writing her book, 'Designing with Love,' which is steeped in her experiences and insights from years in instructional design. She highlights various models and theories that serve as the backbone of effective curriculum development, such as the well-known ADDIE model. But what sets her apart is her advocacy for blending different instructional strategies to meet diverse learner needs. This isn’t just theory—she provides practical examples of how to implement these ideas in real-world scenarios, making it accessible for educators at every level. As we wrap up, Jackie shares her thoughts on the importance of assessment and revision in curriculum design, emphasizing that education is a dynamic process that must evolve with the times. The conversation is peppered with light-hearted moments that keep things engaging while driving home the point that education should be about connection, growth, and purpose. If you're eager to rethink how you approach teaching or instructional design, this episode is packed with wisdom and warmth that’ll inspire you to design learning with love.

Takeaways:

• Transforming the way we design learning can deeply impact how people feel valued and capable.
• Great instruction isn't just about information; it's rooted in empathy, intention, and love.
• Jackie Pelegrin encourages educators to rethink learning experiences that foster genuine connections.
• The upcoming book, 'Designing with Love', emphasizes a human-centered approach to instructional design.
• Using cognitive load theory helps in creating clear, manageable learning experiences for students.
• Designing with intention means understanding that true learning goes beyond mere content delivery.

Links referenced in this episode:

• designingwithloveblog.com
• buzzsprout.com

What if the way we design learning could transform not just what people know, but how deeply they feel, seen, valued and capable? Today's guest believes that great instruction isn't about information. It's about intention, empathy, and love.

She's helping educators and professionals reimagine learning experiences that truly connect. Today, she's sharing how we can all become more intentional designers of impact.

Jackie Pellegrin is an instructional designer, author, college professor, and podcast host dedicated to helping educators and professionals create engaging, effective, impactful learning experiences.

She is the host of Designing with Love podcast and the author of the upcoming book Designing with Love the Essential Instructional Design Handbook where she brings a fresh and human centered approach to learning design, one rooted in empathy, connection and purpose. Jackie, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Dr. Keith. I appreciate it. I'm not sure whether I should refer to you as Dr. Keith, Dr. Haney. I'm not sure some people like the Dr. Keith part. Yeah.

So thank you. I appreciate it.

You can just call me Keith.

Wonderful.

I make the grandkids.

I like that.

So I'm going to ask you my favorite question, Jackie. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Oh, I like that. I would say try not to do too much at once. Take it one, one thing at a time.

It was kind of funny because yesterday I, I looked at my email and I kept getting these requests for my, my full time job that were coming in, that I needed to review courses and it just, all of a sudden I just got overwhelmed and I'm like, oh my goodness, how can I do all of this? But then I remembered a piece of advice my mom gave me when I was in school and I still try to refer back to it today.

And so I would say, yeah, try to do one thing at a time and not try to think you could do five or ten things. Because it never works.

No, it does not. It's funny that you're in education because my doctorate degree is in education, which is funny because none of my other degrees match.

I always joke with people. None of my degrees match my bachelor's in computer science. I have a master's in divinity and then doctorate in education and none of those connect.

But, but I spent a lot of time in education learning just how intricate and how interesting education could be. So I'm looking forward to you giving me more insights and education. But let's talk about your book.

What inspired you to write Designing with Love and why not?

Yeah, so it's kind of interesting because I didn't think I would Write this book. It's not quite published yet. I'm still trying to get the finishing touches on it and decide how I want to publish it.

But it kind of came out of one of my top podcast episodes, and it was about the top 10 instructional design models and theories. And I was just. I just happened to be reading a newsletter from buzzsprout, which is my podcast provider that hosts my podcast. And it's.

It had something about ways that you can monetize your. Your podcast and different ways that you can do that. And one of them was to write a book. And I was like, oh, never really thought of that.

That's a good idea. So I thought, well, what would I write about, right? Because I didn't want it to just be a rehash of podcast episodes.

So I thought, well, I could maybe create a handbook on these different models and theories. Because I had done a whole entire series. I started out with the top 10, and then I did an episode on each one.

So it was a whole entire miniseries of 22 episodes. I ended up actually going beyond the 10, and I ended up doing 18. So it just goes to show how initially your thoughts are, oh, let's do the top 10.

And then I'm like, oh, oh, yeah, there's this one. And there's, you know. So it kind of ended up being that.

But what I did was I, Keith, I took the existing content that I already had in the episodes and then I just, you know, put it into an AI model. And I said, here's my idea of what I want to do. Can you kind of help me formulate this?

And of course, I edited it on lot and didn't take the output that AI gave me. But. But it was really good. It was a way to kind of think through it and go, okay, this is how I can organize it.

And then when I got it all organized, I took my manuscript and put it back into AI and I said, okay, how. How does this look?

Or, you know, kind of wanted AI to analyze it and see was it in the right order with the chapters, and what could I do to kind of maybe break it up a little bit? Because I'm like, oh, my goodness, 20 chapters. That's quite a bit. And so I think it's. I think the manuscript itself is about 200 pages or so. So.

And that's, you know, that's in times new Roman 12 point font, you know, and so I'm like, that's probably going to be even bigger once it gets published. And so, yeah, so I was trying to figure out how to do.

Once you types that in.

Exactly.

So it was nice because AI kind of gave me some tips and, and it was like, you might want to rearrange some of these so that you start with the overarching models and theories and then you can get into the more specialized. And I'm like, oh, good idea. I don't know why I didn't think of that, but it was nice because AI kind of helped me reimagine what the book could be.

And then it said I should break it into multiple parts. So have this part be about these things and these models and theories. And I was like, oh, that's a good idea. I like that.

So I took some of the ideas it gave me and then know, kind of ran with it. So it's, it's really great. I love how AI can kind of help you rethink so some of those things and you can go, ah, good idea.

You know, let me, let me explore that a little bit more and refine it. So, so it really helped me to, to kind of come up with that and then just kind of figure out how the book can be published. What are the avenues?

Right. So it helped me explore those avenues and just kind of. Yeah. Because I, I'm new to this, so it was nice to have that. So.

Yeah, so it kind of came from that and then just kind of. Yeah. Just was born out of, out of a podcast episode. Right. So it's pretty neat. Yeah.

So neat. So tell us about the theories you, you're putting in your book. Because I'm curious, you know.

Yes.

Some of the content.

The first chapter starts off with like an overview of the, the models and theories that are in the book. And then each chapter explores the models and theories. So I go over the ADDIE model, which is a five phase process.

So each of those, it's an acronym for what the model stands for. So it's analysis, design, development, implementation, and then evaluation. So it's a very popular model.

It shows that we start with the needs assessment and then we move through and we design and develop and then we have to make sure we implement it and then don't skip the evaluation. Right. Something that a lot of, a lot of stakeholders want to do. They want to skip the need, they want to skip the beginning and the end.

I don't know why, but a lot of them want to skip the needs assessment. They're like, oh, this is. We need training. And it's like, do we really need training? Let's do a needs assessment and figure that out.

So it's a really good book because it helps you kind of think through that, that model. But then I also go over other ones too, like the SAM model, which is a rapid development model, and things like that.

What are the differences between the two? And, you know, and things like that. So. And then I also talk about combining different models and theories to where you don't have to use just one.

You can combine different ones. And then at the end of each chapter, I provide a reflection of that, like, you know, how you can use it in practice.

And then the final chapter is putting all those models and theories into practice. So it's a combination of different ones.

I talk about, you know, constructivism and things like that that are very popular in education and a lot of educators know about as well. So it's really fun to. It was great to be able to expand it out and explore the different ones, elaboration theory, things like that.

And it helped me to learn more as a designer because I was like, I knew about this theory or this model, but to really dig deep into it and go, oh, okay, yeah. And I can see this being used in practice, so it's really fun.

And what I also did with the whole series of each episode is I created an interactive resource for the listeners. So I figured, well, you know, I might as well just utilize that in the book too.

So for the ebook option, I'll provide links to each of those interactive resources for them as well. So you're not just getting the content in written form, but you can actually explore the interactive resources as well.

And it helps, you know, for different learners that. Or readers that learn in different ways as well, that they can get that in in multiple formats. So I think that'll really help with that as well.

Yeah, I love that.

It's really great.

I love the phrase. I think it's very powerful. Design with Love. What does that truly mean in the context of instructional.

Yes, it was kind of interesting when I was thinking of the title of the. Of the podcast and what I would call it. I kept coming up with these different titles.

I wrote a few down, and then this one popped up, Designing with Love. And I was like, oh, I kind of like that. That's neat. Because that's what I do. I design.

And the tagline of my podcast on my website is Design with love, Purpose and heart. So it kind of all ties into that. And so being able to design with intention. Right. And. And all of that kind of falls into that. And also as a.

As a Christian woman, it ties into servant leadership as well, and having that. That love and that purpose and going beyond that. So it's really interesting. A lot of people ask me, where did you come up with the name?

I was like, I think it was divine intervention, because I think that's what the Lord wanted me to do, was to design with love and with intention.

So that's kind of the whole heart of it, is being able to help people understand when you design, you want to design with that purpose, that heart, that servant leadership mindset. So, yeah, kind of rolled all that up into that title. Yeah.

Oh, that's really neat. So much of our learning experiences are focused on just content.

And I know when I was teaching confirmation kids, getting them ready for their first communion, it was about content. Make sure that all the content. But how do you shift from just focusing so much on content to really toward designing experiences that are engaging?

Because I wanted to do that. I wanted my kids to not just learn the information, but to be transformed by the information and engaged.

So how do you do that in the context of designing curriculum?

It's so true. And I've seen this happen over the years. I've been doing instructional design for 15 years and then doing it in higher education for about 12.

I did corporate for a little while too, but primarily higher education. So it's interesting, Keith, because I see faculty that, that know the content so well, and they become our subject matter experts.

They come into to revise a course for numerous reasons. Right? It's because the content needs to be updated to.

To comply with certain regulatory standards or because the content's outdated itself and needs to be updated. But what I find is that they. They know the content so well, but they have a hard time translating that into instruction or into the curriculum.

They know the instruction part, but the curriculum part is where they struggle a lot. So that's where I come in as an instructional designer and I work with the curriculum developer to do that.

So what I find is that when I ask them the question, what do you want students to know and be able. Not just to know, but be able to do by the end of this course, and I even break it down by topics, and they, It's.

They have a hard time articulating that. There's. They say, oh, I want them to know this. And it's like 15 different things.

And I'm like, can we really teach that in this course, let's look back to the course description, you know, that we created and are we really doing that? Right. So it's a good question for them because then they have to really think about it and go, okay, let's.

And then we translate that into objectives and. Or we revise the existing objectives.

But what I find is that they, they say everything, I want them to know everything, or I want them to know 15 things. And I'm like, okay, let's break this down a little bit more. Let's, let's see. You know, what, what is it actually that you want them to actually to.

To be able to take on the job with them. Right. And, and bring that into fruition. So you're right. It's not just about knowing information, but it's about being able to transform their lives.

Right. And, and know that when they go into that next career or they move up in their career, that they'll be able to do that with confidence.

So to me, it's. It's taking what I call the art, what we call the ARCS model. So it's, it's a motivational model, and each of the of those stands for.

It's an acronym, again, a lot of acronyms. So it stands for attention, relevance, confidence, and satisfaction. So. And it's not just for adults. I think it can be for kids, too.

So you first want to gain their attention, then you want to provide that relevance to how does this relate in my life? Right. Or how does this relate in my career and what I'm going to do? And then you make sure that they have the confidence to do that.

And then at the end, they should be. They should have that sense satisfaction that they can do this.

So I always like to make sure that I'm, I'm doing that during any course development or program design or anything that I'm doing that I make sure, okay, are we doing that, Are we following that ARCS model and are we making sure that they do have that relevance and. Or is this just busy work? Because sometimes, yeah, unfortunately, they put busy work in there. So I want to make sure it's. It's relevant for them.

They can have that confidence and that they're satisfied at the end. Because at the end of the day, if they, if there's nothing that they gain out of it, then what's the, what's the purpose of it? So, yeah,.

How do you balance knowing that there's a certain content level that you have to make sure students get with the standards that outside forces are putting on to the. And keeping in mind that students need to be engaged and want to learn this. So how do you balance all those three different.

Because I always think education is. There's so many other components to it than just the quality of the teacher or the quality of the content and the student.

So how do you balance all those things as you're trying to think about what's the best way to do this?

That's a great question, because it's true.

I deal with courses that have accreditation standards, and those standards, I find, whether they're education standards, or in my case, counseling and social work standards, especially with counseling and education, too, I find that the individuals that wrote those standards did not take into account curriculum and how to design curriculum, because we have standards that are like, there's one in counseling where they have to talk about attitudinal. It's for career counseling. So they have to discuss, like, it's all in one standard. It's like attitudinal and workplace and all this.

It's like five different things in one standard. And I'm like, I didn't even know. I'm like, what is attitudinal? What does that mean? Or there's another term.

And I'm like, well, what exactly does that mean? Are they. I don't know. So I had to look it up, and I was like, I have to understand what this means in order for me to help the faculty to do that.

So, yeah, so it's very interesting. I try to make sure that it's something. It feels like we're balancing a lot. Right?

We're having to kind of make sure, like you said, that the standards are being met, but then also the students are able to do the assignment. Right? Are they able to actually do all of this and meet the standard and still do it? So. So I try to make sure we.

We chunk it out and we break it up so that. That way, one prompt, unless it's something where we need to assess it or something like that through a rubric, then I'm like, let's just.

Let's break this up a little bit, if we can.

So that way they're not feeling like they have to do all of that in one prompt because it can be daunting and it can be difficult for even the student to do it, but then let alone the faculty to grade it. So it's challenging.

So I try to make sure it's attainable for them and that they can actually do it, because sometimes, unfortunately, the faculty will Take the exact standard language and they'll plop it in the assignment description or they'll put it into a prompt and like, oh yeah, I don't know. Or is this, does this make sense? Doesn't make sense to me. So is it going to make sense to the student?

So that's where I kind of, we kind of work with them a little bit.

Try to, try to make sure that we massage that and, and work with that and just make it more clear and make it so that it's attainable for them and they can actually do it and understand it.

So it's a little bit of that and then just making sure that the, what the product that we're asking them to produce, whether it's a paper or presentation or a flyer or something like that, that not only is it something they can do in that assignment, but is that something that they actually do in the field? Right. You know, and so I ask those questions all the time.

I'm like, okay, let's see if we can, you know, do make, make sure that they're doing something that they're actually going to replicate in the field and that this is actually going to help them in, in that career that they're, they're going to do. So if they're becoming future counselors, then we want to make sure that they're, they're actually doing that.

So yeah, so it's a, definitely a, it's a balancing act. And I wear many hats. I put on one hat and then I put on another and, and do those each day. So. And then I teach classes too.

So it's really great to be able to do that every day and then also be able to teach the next generation of, of instructional designers and help them to, you know, see that. Here's some examples of what I've been able to experience in the workplace as an instructional designer.

And they really like those real world experiences and to hear what I've been able to, to do in the field and how that can translate into what they'll do in the future as well.

So yeah, so making sure that discussion questions and all of that are actually enabling them to do that and to have those meaningful discussions and they're not just regurgitating information as well.

Yes, I am curious. How in the world did you wake up one day and say I want to be an instructional designer?

Yes, it's an interesting, interesting story because I kind of like you. I have a mixture of different degrees. So my bachelor's and my master's are both in business.

So I have a bachelor's degree in business with an emphasis in marketing that I received from University of Phoenix. And then I went back and I did their MBA program thinking I was going to go into market research and do marketing.

And then I. I pivoted, and I ended up going into. I was doing different things like financial services, and. And I did enrollment for a little while for them.

And then I just kind of was like, maybe it's time for to pivot a little bit.

And so then I ended up having this opportunity to work in admissions at another university, and they ended up starting a program in instructional design. And as I was reading all the courses in that, I thought, ooh, this is really interesting. And then it just.

I had my epiphany moment at that point, Keith. So I was like, wow, I think I. This is something I've always wanted to do. I just didn't know there was a name for it.

So that's when I was trying to decide, should I do the certificate? Because I'd already had my.

My mba, and I was like, do I really want to go back for a second masters and do this, or should I actually take the plunge and do the whole thing? But as I was reading each of the courses, I was like, I love this more and more, and it just spoke to me.

So I decided to take the plunge and do the Master's. So, yeah, so it was. It was really fun. And halfway through my master's, I got my certificate. It was embedded into the program.

And then they had an opportunity where they opened up a trainer position and an instructional designer position in our L and D department. And it was for admissions. It was to help create training for admissions. So I was like, oh, perfect.

I have the experience working in the admissions department. So it felt like a really good opportunity. And so I applied for it and got the job before I even got my master's.

So with the caveat that I finished it. So I did. So it's like, sure, I'll finish it if you give me the job. Sure, I'll finish the degree.

So, yeah, so it was like jumping in and just on the job training. I learned the software and everything as I was working on it. So, yeah, it was interesting, for sure.

So what kind of classes did you have to take to prepare you to do what you did?

Yes, so I had to take a models and theories course. I also had to do a course, and actually it was two courses. It was split into two. So 16 weeks of multimedia.

So I had to learn all the different software, we didn't dig deep into it, though. So learning Captivate and Photoshop and all of those, we. I did a little bit of it, but not to the level that I was hoping for. So.

But that's okay because when I got into the. Into my first position, then I learned more about Captivate and how to use it. So we learned elearning, authoring tools like that a little bit. And.

And then I also learned about, you know, workplace performance and support and how to pull data and how to analyze that data and just how to collaborate with others, how to work with different individuals in that area and things like that.

So it was a combination of learning the models and the theories and then also learning the multimedia aspect as well, and then how to be able to translate that into. Into actionable outcomes for either the workplace or for training or something like that, or even curriculum as well.

So learning that was really important. And then we actually went through the entire ADDIE model. So we went through the analysis phase, design, development, implementation, and evaluation.

So we got to actually dig deep into each of those phases and really learn about those in each of our classes.

So by the time we finished the capstone and I was able to go through that, I was able to say, okay, I know the whole ADDIE model from start to finish. So it was really nice to have that demonstration and be able to be able to show, okay, I know how to do this from start to finish.

So it was really beneficial to have that. And then we had to create a portfolio. Although I don't use. I didn't use it beyond my classes. I wish I kind of would have.

So today, what they do with students in this program that I teach is they allow them to develop it. But then I always tell them, you know, make sure that you're actually not just abandoning it when you finish the program, but utilize it, keep.

Keep updating it, because you just never know what kind of career you're going to get into. And you may be somewhere for a couple years, and then you may transition somewhere else.

So having that as a good marketing tool and at everything, it helps with recruiters. They want to see that now, so it's really good.

But yeah, learning all those foundational courses really helped me, and now I'm able to relate those to my teaching as well. So it's really helpful to have all of that.

As I think about what you just described, evaluation to me seems to be an important part of curriculum design or whatever designing you're doing. How much time do you Give it in the evaluation before you say, okay, I need to redo this piece or that piece. And how are you.

I mean, you're never actually done. If you're effective at this, we can say, oh, I've achieved. We got the perfect module, we got the perfect class. Because things are always changing.

So what's the shelf life of something you desire?

That's true. Because we don't want to constantly go back in and make changes every semester.

Because then you're right, you know, I mean, it's, then you're making changes just to make changes, right? Sometimes it comes to that or it becomes preference, right?

Where the faculty is like, oh, okay, this, you know, I didn't like the way I, the way I had to teach this. And let's go back. And so it's kind of interesting how you get some faculty that will, they'll want everything to change and they don't like anything.

And it's like, really?

So it's kind of one of those things where it's like, you know, we have to, we use a centralized curriculum model where, where I work and where I teach. So keeping that in mind is always important. So each faculty is not designing their own lesson or their own syllabus.

So I mean, they, they, they can have some autonomy in what they're doing.

So as an online instructor, I can go in and add resources and I can create videos, but what's in the, in the course shell is what we have to adhere to. So that's kind of hard for some faculty when they're used to working at other universities where they have more of that autonomy.

They select the book, they write the syllabus and they write the lessons. But I actually like that centralized curriculum model because it helps students to know from class to class.

Okay, I'm going to have two discussion questions in each topic and I'm going to have something where they know from class to class, okay. I know what to expect. And it's not just, you know, from one class to the next, this hodgepodge of different things.

And so at least they have those core expectations where they know what to expect. And I think that's helpful in training too.

I think if you can kind of have a model where you can have something where the learners know what to expect and you have that built in, I think that's really helpful. So, yeah, it kind of depends.

I mean, I would say, you know, we try to at least revise courses every year, especially those courses that are high touch point courses. We try to revise those once a year.

But sometimes we end up revising them a little bit more and there's times where courses aren't touched for several years. And then I'm like, maybe we need to revise this course. The resources might be outdated. You know, they're, you know, touching on 15 years.

And I'm like, that's, those are probably a little outdated, so we probably need to update them.

So yeah, so it's, it's interesting how sometimes we have courses that are revised a little bit more often because they're, they're higher enrolled courses or they're just, they're constantly going, no, we need to adjust this or that. And so, yeah, so. And then you have other courses that aren't revised as often.

So it's kind of finding that balance, right, of being able to do that and then also not overloading our staff either and making sure that they have the right balance of, of courses that they can reasonably revise and work on or new courses that we can develop along the way. So it's that, it's that balance of being able to meet the needs of the, of the colleges and what they want to do.

But, but then also being intentional, like you said, that evaluation process. We don't want to just revise a course because there's a few comments.

We want to make sure that we're gathering the data to support that revision so that it's, it's not only evidence based, but it's data driven.

And so that's something they like to use, is data driven and making sure that if we, if we change out an assignment, is it, are we truly doing it for the right reason or are we just doing it because the faculty doesn't like it? Because I want to learn more than that. Right? It's like if they say, oh, I don't like this assignment.

Well, what's the reason you don't like the assignment? Are students struggling with it?

And then if they say yes, they're struggling with this part of the assignment, then I always ask the curriculum developer, can you check and see? Or I can pull the data and see what the rubric information is telling us. Are they struggling in this area and maybe another area?

Because it could be, you know, they're teaching the class and maybe some of their students are struggling in that area, but in other classes, students may be struggling in something else. So, so before we go and change an assignment, let's kind of see, you know, what is the data telling us through that.

So that really helps too, to kind of back up some of what we're doing as well. So that helps. Yeah, yeah.

So what are some of the biggest mistakes you see people making when designing learning experiences?

Oh, that's a good one. I think overwhelming the learner that I see a lot. Right. Or unclear instructions, whether it's training or whether. Or it's curriculum.

They don't put enough detail in the instructions or it's. So it's either the one or the other.

They put too much in there and then it's unclear about what are you, what are you actually asking the learner to do, or they don't put enough in there. Or, or sometimes I see where they put multiple things in a prompt. So they put describe this and identify that.

And I'm like, wait a minute, if they can describe it, they can identify it. Right. So I always ask them, be more clear about what you're asking them to do and if they want them to include something in that prompt.

So if they say describe this and include that, then I'll say, okay, well, you're asking them to do two different things.

So let's either break it up into two prompts or let's make it two sentences because they tend to want to again, just put all the kit and caboodle in there. And I'm like, oh, let's, let's make this more manageable for them. And, and one of my, one of the, the models that I'm.

That I mentioned quite a bit is cognitive load theory. That's actually a really good theory. And it's.

Dr. John Sweller actually developed it based on the brain and how much the brain is able to process and how much our working memory is able to, to be able to take in at once. So what I find is that, yeah, they tend to not follow that, not follow cognitive load theory.

And they want to just, yeah, give them way too much at once. And so breaking it up, I think is, is really helpful. And yeah, that's, that makes a big difference and what they're able to learn.

So, and I always ask the faculty, I'm like, put yourself in the student's shoes, you know, and not just you as the instructor and what you're grading and what you're, you're wanting to assess, but put yourself in the student's shoes as if they were to see it for the first time, which they are. Right. In many cases, would you be able to understand it? Would you be able to complete it as a student?

And if they can't answer that clearly as a yes, Then I'm like, then we need to revise the assignment. Yeah.

So education has probably taken a black eye in some circles today. If you could give some advice to people in education to improve their perception and just the overall quality of it, what would you say?

That's a good one? I would say probably because AI has kind of taken over education in general. And you're right.

Even before AI kind of, higher education has kind of had that negative stigma, I think, especially with online education. But online education is not going anywhere, Right.

We know that working adults need it to be able to manage family and school and work and everything else. And so I have online students that are in these graduate classes and they have life events that come up.

So I think it's important to know that education is still important. It may not be for everybody, but I think it's still important.

And in some different fields like counseling, they need to have a master's degree in order to even get a license to practice as a counselor. Right. So there's different fields that still require higher education.

So I think, you know, so I, I think we, we need to, you know, know that we can't just dismiss all education together. All together.

You know, when it comes to the fields that, that are more of, you know, the industrial type, like, oh, what is one like auto mechanics and things like that, well, they may not need to go to college and do that. They can probably go to a trade school and do it.

So I think what we need to do is as educators, we need to provide those options to learners and say, okay, if you're going into this field, well, you may not need a four year degree. You can, you can go to a trade school.

So one thing that the university that I work for, Grand Canyon University, is they're recognizing that and they're saying, okay, let's offer more options to these, these learners. And so they do have apprenticeship type. I don't even know if I would call it a program. It's more of like eight months.

They, they go in there and they do an apprenticeship like for an electrician type of situation.

And, and then they partner with, with a company that works locally with the, with Grand Canyon and then they offer them that apprenticeship and they can come out of that apprenticeship and it's in eight months, take a few courses and then be able to get a job in that area and they can start making 100,000 a year. It's amazing.

And yet they didn't have to go to a four year institution or take a bachelor's degree and they could just get right in, get in, get out, and get into the field.

So I think it's important for us to recognize that, yeah, education is not what it used to be and we need to pivot and we need to be able to offer what. What is, what do the students need. Right. And what's going to help them in their career.

And so, yeah, so I think that that's, that's important too, as institutions and as, as educators. I think we need to make sure that we're staying on top of that as well.

Yeah, I like that. So I'm going to ask you some light questions now.

I love it.

One word that defines your approach to teaching.

I would say empathy is the one word.

I like that. A tool or strategy you can't live without.

Oh, I would say that cognitive load theory. That's a strategy that I love and that I don't think I can live without because that helps me to be better at what I do. Yes.

A book that changed your perspective.

I would say the Accidental Instructional Designer by Cami Bean. That's a great book. Yes.

Your go to way to spark engagement.

I would say using tools like genially and Canva are a great way to spark engagement with students any age, whether It's K through 12 or higher ed. Yes, those are great tools.

One mindset shift every educator needs.

I would say look at AI as your collaborative partner, not your enemy, because so many educators see AI as the enemy. But I think if you look at it as your collaborative partner instead, I think things will go a lot better because AI is not going anywhere.

Yes, very true. I love to ask my guests this question. What do you want your legacy to be?

I would say probably a good legacy that I've. That I've made a difference and in others lives and I've helped them to realize what their true calling is in life.

Like that. So we have a new thing. Surprise question on the podcast. Pick a number between 1 and 10 for your surprise question.

I'll go right in the middle. Number five.

Oh, I like this one. Which band or artist, dead or alive, do you want to play at your funeral?

Oh, that's a good one. I would say Elvis Presley, he's got such good songs because what's great about his music is he's got a range, right.

He's got rock and roll, he's got gospel. Yeah. He's got the ballads, right. The slow ones. So yeah, I think Elvis Presley would be a good one. Maybe one of his gospel songs or something.

Like that. Because he started doing gospel music right after his mother. I think it was right after his mother passed away, he started getting into gospel.

So, yeah, I think I could see an Elvis song. Yeah.

Pretty good.

I'm not sure which one yet, but that would be neat.

Yeah, there you go. The question. Do you let him shake his hip?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's so funny, Keith, because my mom was pregnant with me.

I'm sorry, it was March because he passed away in August. Right? August 77 is when he passed. Yeah. So it was March. Yeah. And I was born in December of that year.

So I didn't even know that I was actually at an Elvis concert. Right. Yeah. So it's pretty neat. It was at the, it was at the Coliseum here. And so. But she noticed that he, he didn't look the same at that point.

I think he, the. He started to have some effects from all the drugs and everything like that. And so. Yeah, so it was kind of interesting.

And they have a biopic movie that has some of his concerts and stuff. I want to see that. It's called. I forget what it's called, but it's like Elvis the Experience or something like that.

I can't remember, but it looks really good. I'm like, oh, that, that looks neat. I'd like to see that. And some behind the scenes, never before seen stuff.

So I'm like, oh, that's, that's, that looks neat. Yeah.

Yeah, interesting. Love it. So, Jackie, where can people find you and follow you on social media?

So I, I have a website for my, my, my podcast. It's called designingwithloveblog.com and it's kind of interesting because I do have a blog that goes with the podcast. So it.

So the blog part makes sense. So they can follow me there if they want to be a guest on the show. They can fill out the guest registration and then I'll get that.

And then I'm happy to have other educators on the podcast at any time. So that's a really neat way to contact me. And then I'm also Fairly active on LinkedIn, so they can.

So anybody can look me up on LinkedIn and they can connect with me there and send me a message as well.

Well, Jax, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Thank you for sharing reminding us that learning is not just about what we teach, but how we connect, uplift and empower others in that process and to our listeners. If today's episode resonated with you, be sure to check out Jackie's upcoming book, Designing with Love the Essential Instructional Design Handbook.

Follow her work and podcast for more insights on creating impactful learning experiences. And take one small step this week to design with greater intention, empathy, and care. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe.

Share it with someone who's passionate about learning and growth, and leave us a review. Until next time. Keep building bridges, keep learning with intention, and keep showing up with love. Jackie thanks so much for being with us, Keith.

I appreciate the invitation. I look forward to staying connected.