Today I'm talking with Camden Hainsworth, a certified ADHD coach who was diagnosed herself at 36, has children with ADHD, and has spent the last several years helping people understand and work with their ADHD brains instead of fighting them.

We talk about what ADHD actually is (it's a difference, not a deficiency), why the nervous system of someone with ADHD can feel like a wobbly skateboard heading downhill, and how that shows up in everyday stress. Camden shares her own diagnosis story, what it was like parenting through burnout before she understood her own brain, and how she coaches parents of grown children with ADHD who want to help without overstepping.

We also get into the difference between helping and enabling, what a repair conversation looks like after a blow up, and why autonomy matters so much for someone with an ADHD brain. Camden leaves us with a powerful reframe: ADHD is a disability, and when we understand it that way, we stop expecting someone to just try harder and start building real support around them.

If you parent, coach, or love someone with ADHD, whether they're seven or thirty seven, this conversation will give you language and tools you can use right away.

In this episode:

• What actually happens in an ADHD brain under stress
• The skateboard metaphor for understanding nervous system regulation
• How to support an adult child with ADHD without taking over their life
• The difference between helping and enabling
• What a genuine repair conversation looks like after conflict
• Why ADHD is best understood as a disability, and why that reframe matters

Connect with Camden:

Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-busy-brained-saint-podcast/id1647973464

Instagram: @kamden_adhd

Website: https://www.kamdenadhdcoaching.com/

Also mentioned in this episode:

Join us for my in person class on nervous system regulation, September 10th at the South Jordan Community Center. Link to register https://brookeoniki.com/emotional-regulation-workshop/

Let me know if you'd like a shorter version for social captions, or if you want me to pull a few standalone quote graphics from the conversation.

I'm so excited to share this conversation I had with

2

Camden Haynesworth about ADHD.

3

She herself has ADHD, and she has children

with ADHD, and she shares some really

4

great insights if you have been diagnosed

with that, and how to navigate parenting

5

a child that has ADHD, whether it's

in your home still or an adult child.

6

She has some really,

really good information.

7

I also want to invite you, if

you are local to Salt Lake City,

8

to come to my in-person class

on Thursday, September 10th.

9

We're gonna talk about nervous system

regulation, and I know that sounds

10

boring, like, what does that even mean?

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But most of us don't realize that our

bodies are constantly looking for danger,

12

and when something goes wrong, if I make

a mistake, or somebody looks at me weird,

13

or there's some tone in something that

my husband says to me or my child says to

14

me, my body immediately gets defensive.

15

We may get snarky.

16

We might get sarcastic.

17

We might shut down, give someone

the silent treatment because

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our body's trying to protect us.

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But if we can learn to understand what

our body's telling us And actually

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use our adult brain to bring that

high emotion down, we can get into a

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rational state of mind where we can

negotiate and have a conversation where

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we communicate much more effectively.

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so I'm gonna teach you how to do that.

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It's a two-hour class at

South Jordan Community Center.

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It's on September 10th.

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It's $25, and I would love to have

you come, and we'll use real-life

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examples from the people who attend.

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We're gonna have time to journal

and do a little small group work

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and then bigger group work, and I'm

really excited to teach this class.

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I've taught it to businesses,

I've taught it to women's groups,

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but I'm really excited to teach

it here where we have more time.

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Oftentimes, I'm teaching it in a

conference where I only have 45

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minutes, but this is gonna be workshop

style so that you'll get to have more

34

interaction, and you can ask me questions.

35

Even after it's over, you can stay.

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I've booked the room for longer

if you want to stay and get

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some one-on-one help from me.

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I hope that you will do that.

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So come.

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Invite your friends.

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I'd love to have you.

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The link to register is in the show notes.

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Welcome to Midlife with Brooke.

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I am your host, Brooke Oniki.

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I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ,

a wife, mother, grandma,

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and a certified life coach.

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On this podcast, we talk about all things

mothering, health and emotional wellbeing.

48

I share practical tools and

examples from my life and from the

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lives of my clients to help you

navigate this new season of midlife.

50

It can feel tricky and confusing and

a little bit out of our comfort zone

51

as our children grow up and they

don't really need us in the same way.

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These concepts and principles have changed

my life and I've watched them change

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the lives of my clients, and I hope that

they can be helpful if there are things

54

that you wanna change in your life.

55

So let's get started.

56

Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Today I'm going to be talking to Camden

Hainsworth I met her at a workshop that I

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went to in San Diego with Jody Moore, and

we had some personal conversations there

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where I just felt very connected to her.

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It's interesting 'cause she

coaches people- with ADHD,

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and I believe she has ADHD.

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I think sometimes of people with ADHD

as kind of maybe high energy, but

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she has a calmness about her that is

really palpable- Mm-hmm … and real.

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And so anyway, when I found out that

that's who she coaches and that's

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what she has herself, I was even more

interested in hearing, how do you

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coach your clients who have ADHD?

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How do you help them with

their children that have ADHD?

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so I thought this might be really

good for my audience, who deal

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with those things in their family.

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So first, Kamdin, if you'll just

introduce yourself, and then we'll

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get started with some questions.

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Speaker 2: Brooke, thank you

so much for having me on.

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It was really fun meeting you,

in San Diego, and, I'm happy

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to be talking about this today.

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So like Brooke said, I'm Kamdin . I

live in Springville, Utah.

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I have four kids.

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I grew up in San Diego actually, and

I moved to Utah when I went to BYU.

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went to university here, and,

I have been coaching people

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with ADHD for about five years.

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I was diagnosed at 36, so about six

years ago, and I have children with

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ADHD, and I have many siblings with ADHD.

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And since doing all this work, my dad has

had a revelation that that's how his brain

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works too, and, it was very different

than what I thought ADHD would be back

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in the days when I taught sixth grade.

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I thought I knew everything about

that diagnosis back then as a teacher,

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and what I've come to learn about

it is it's much more layered and,

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more interesting than what I was…

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You know, the little box

that I was thinking about it.

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So I'm really looking forward

to talking about that today.

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Speaker: So tell me how you

would define it, the diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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So I'm not a medical professional, but,

you might hear or read in a book that it's

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a neurodevelopmental disorder that impacts

the prefrontal cortex and the limbic brain

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and how they communicate with each other.

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So many of you probably listening

to this podcast understand that the

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prefrontal cortex is responsible

for a lot of executive function, for

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higher level thinking, for memory.

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And so for an ADHD brain, our brain, it…

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Even though in the definition it

says kind of like a disorder or

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it's underdeveloped, I like to

think of it as just a difference.

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It's not just a matter of- dopamine

or serotonin regulation per

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se, though that does impact it.

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But the actual way that the brain is

set up and how it operates and the

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pathways that it takes is different.

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And so when you live in a neurotypical

society or North American society

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that values very particular things

like prioritizing being places on

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time, remembering certain parts of

day-to-day tasks, and being able to

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replicate those easily, sometimes

it becomes a little challenging to

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show up in that kind of society.

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And so I help people manage that and

work with their strengths, 'cause

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the ADHD mind is quite powerful in

addition to being frustrating at times.

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Speaker: Yeah, that's an interesting

thing to consider, that it's a

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society that we have learned to

value things in a certain way.

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So it doesn't necessarily

mean it's the best way.

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No.

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It's just the way that

we've grown accustomed to.

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Speaker 2: Well, like hunter-gatherer

societies, you can think of it that way.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: There are quite a

few books and podcasts that talk

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about us as the hunter type.

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We had to be impulsive.

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We had to be willing to go out on

adventures, to go hunt, and to find

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food, and to put ourself out on the

line in terrain that we were unaware of.

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And the gatherers also had their way.

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they had to gather, or the farmers,

like, the people that had to

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do things consistently and pay

attention to the sun and the water.

127

And so back in that time we were

so grateful for the differences

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in our minds and our brains.

129

It's just that now how we live, it's

a little bit less valued the same way.

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Speaker: Yeah.

131

That's very interesting.

132

So how would you say a person with

ADHD shows up differently under stress?

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maybe it's you or maybe it's a loved one.

134

Mm-hmm.

135

What, what happens in an ADHD

brain when, when there's stress

136

involved that's different- … than

someone without an ADHD brain?

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Speaker 2: I'll say that ADHD is as

hereditary as height- And so if you

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have a child that was diagnosed with

ADHD, you might be looking at your

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spouse or you might be looking at

yourself a little bit differently too,

140

because it's such a high correlation.

141

And so even though you're

listening to this with maybe a

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parent's ear or a grandparent's

ear, we can all learn together.

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So one of the best ways that I like

to talk about, the nervous system of

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someone with ADHD is using a skateboard.

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I grew up skateboarding.

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And so on a skateboard you

have four different parts.

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You have the top deck, and then you have

the trucks underneath, and the trucks

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attach to the deck that you stand on.

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Speaker: Uh-huh.

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Speaker 2: And then the trucks then are

where the wheels and the bearings go.

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Okay?

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And on those trucks, there are bolts

that you can screw to tighten up or to

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loosen, and that adjusts how wobbly y-

the board is when you're standing on it.

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Okay?

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And for many people coming into

life, they come with a very

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reasonable wobbly lever, okay?

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Like tightening.

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Speaker: Uh-huh.

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Speaker 2: And you get on the board and

you put a little bit of weight to the

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front and you can turn, a little bit of

weight to the back and you can turn, and

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you feel pretty solid, and feel safe.

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Okay?

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You have some flexibility,

but you, you feel safe.

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Pretty tight.

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When we get on our board every day, we

don't know if it's gonna be super tight,

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super loose, or anything in between.

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And for most of us, most days

are quite wobbly, especially when

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it comes to the nervous system.

169

So where we see that in terms of the body

is if the limbic brain is that, skateboard

170

and now all of a sudden we're going down

a really big hill, let's call that stress.

171

That could be family environments, that

could be whatever else it might be.

172

that now we're not only on a wobbly board,

but now we've got terrain that we're

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having to navigate on that wobbly board.

174

And so a lot of our attention has to

go to just, like, staying alive inside

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of our body, feeling safe, as well

as, "Wow, are there rocks on the road?

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How fast am I going?

177

can I keep my balance?

178

Can I keep my center?"

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And so if you're on the- you know,

tighter board, neurotypical board,

180

and you're going down that hill, it's

still scary, it's still stressful, but

181

it's not at all the same experience.

182

And so in that occasion, the brain is

showing up for you in terms of regulation.

183

It's doing a better job at calibrating,

we can say, automatically for you.

184

And a lot of the work that I have to do

for myself and what I help with my clients

185

is for them to almost be able to step

outside of the experience that's going

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on inside of their body and take care

of themself, nurture their, themselves,

187

and help themself through that.

188

And there's a lot of reasons as to

what triggers someone, you know,

189

and why things are stressful.

190

But hopefully that highlights a little bit

more as to why it seems more stressful.

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Speaker: Right.

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I teach people about the pillars of

emotional regulation, like getting enough

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sleep and eating well- Yes … and getting

movement and sunlight and relationships.

194

Like, those are important things that

can help us stay, I guess, tighter, or

195

more stable in our nervous system so

that, that that's one element we don't

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have to be thinking about so much, 'cause

we've taken care of those kinds of needs.

197

But if I have ADHD, you're saying

one morning I wake up tight and

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one morning I wake up loose.

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Do you have any say in that?

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Are there things you can do to

make that less of a variable?

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Speaker 2: Oh, I love this question,

because it isn't that we don't all

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experience, as I call them, like,

beach days and mountain peak days.

203

It's just how do we manage

them when they come up?

204

And ours, I would just say, come up a lot

more frequently and a lot bigger extremes.

205

So a lot lower lows, a lot higher highs.

206

But to answer your question, all

the more reason why it is important

207

for someone with ADHD to get good

sleep, to get vitamin D, to have

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movement, to have good nutrition,

to drink water, all the more reason.

209

The frustrating part, however, is

that that requires consistency, and

210

the prefrontal cortex of an ADHD

brain is not wired for consistency.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And so now we have this big

loop of I need more sleep so that I

213

can have a tighter board so that I'm

not as triggered as easily, or I can

214

manage myself, but my brain tells me

to stay awake because that's when it

215

comes alive and I get things done.

216

And so learning how to manage your own

ADHD in a way, and learning how to not

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listen to your brain and not listen

to the cues of that limbic brain that

218

says stay awake, and that prefrontal

cortex that says, "Oh, just, just do

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one more show," or, you know, that's

very dopamine seeking or pain avoidant.

220

Learning how to find yourself amidst

those messages is a lot of the work

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that, that we work on together.

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Yeah.

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Speaker: It's so interesting

just having you tell me this.

224

I feel like In our relationship,

my husband's the one who's

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like, "Let's get to bed on time.

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Let's quit watching this in the middle."

227

he's the one who's, who's

pretty rigid about that.

228

And sometimes when he goes out

of town, I stay up way too late.

229

Yeah.

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And then, and then I'm like, oh, my

ADHD brain comes out, and I don't know-

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Yes … that I actually have ADHD.

232

but I, I feel like sometimes when I'm

not with someone to co-regulate, that I

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Speaker 2: tend- A body double

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Speaker: I tend to be a little-

Yeah … more like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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It's…

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That…

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We call it body doubling in

the ADHD world, is, like you're

239

saying, co-regulation, right?

240

And even a step further, even if you are

regulated, like emotionally regulated,

241

but maybe you're making different

decisions that your, your current

242

self can't see is as harmful to your

future self, that when we have that

243

body double that we can just follow

and kind of say, "Oh, there's my cue.

244

There's my cue that we trust."

245

Mm-hmm.

246

It's so helpful, and that's why many

people with ADHD have timers, and have

247

visual cues, have accountability partners.

248

Because it's not that they don't

want to go to bed on time, it's that

249

in the moment their brain is giving

them a very loud, different message,

250

and that can be very confusing.

251

A lot of the time you…

252

conflicting priorities.

253

and, and the thing that you're doing,

it's not always Netflix or something,

254

it could be something that seems

completely valid, but in the longer

255

scheme of things isn't as helpful-

Right … or supportive to your goals.

256

Yeah.

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Speaker: in my situation, we're talking

about people who their kids are grown

258

and don't live with them anymore.

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Yeah.

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Are there ways that…

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I can't co-regulate with them as well

as I can when they live with me, where I

262

could set structured bedtimes, and I could

s- set reading times, and play times-

263

Yeah … and doing all those things to

try to help them while they're growing up.

264

But when they're adults, what suggestions

do you have about how to support them?

265

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think first

it has a lot to do with if

266

they want to be supported-

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Speaker: Oh, that's it

268

… Speaker 2: or if you're just

bringing yourself onto them because

269

you think that they need support.

270

Because, you know, we all, we

all get our own life to live.

271

We get, we get one of those here,

this type of earth experience, right?

272

And so a lot of the time when the value

is something that society values, like

273

to bed before 10:00 or w- you know,

truly successful people wake up before, I

274

don't know, whatever time you wanna say.

275

And, and we look at our child, our young

adult, or even full-grown adult, and we

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see that they're not doing those things.

277

We think, "Oh my gosh, I failed them."

278

Like, these are the things that are

really gonna help them be successful.

279

But maybe they're actually for the

first time in their life starting

280

to test their flexibility and figure

out what their circadian rhythm

281

with ADHD is actually helpful.

282

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

283

Speaker 2: And sometimes that can

be really painful for us to observe

284

and to watch, but to remember that

this is the life that they have, and

285

so they get to decide what is most

valuable for them, even though that

286

might look very different from you.

287

So that's my first thing.

288

But there's also, you know,

multiple perspectives of if, if

289

they're willing to have some help,

then that's where I would begin.

290

Like, what is the most

important thing to them?

291

Not because they want to please you,

but really, like, where are they

292

finding themselves the most frustrated?

293

What time of day?

294

What transition?

295

do they need just, like, a break

from their kids every couple weeks,

296

so that they can take a nap or

so that they can do something fun

297

because that really helps reset them?

298

Like, where in their life do they

feel the most frustrated, and

299

where do they need the most help?

300

'Cause for an ADHD brain, that

definitely is gonna look different than

301

a neurotypical brain most of the time

302

Speaker: So this might be something I

should have asked you at the beginning,

303

but how did you end up being diagnosed?

304

Like, how did that come about?

305

Speaker 2: So after a year of, intense

entrepreneurship, I was involved in MLM.

306

It was really amazing thing,

'cause coming from, being a

307

schoolteacher, I thought that, like,

my pay was gonna be pretty set.

308

And my dad was an entrepreneur

growing up, but there was seven kids.

309

We lived in San Diego, and money

was always extremely tight.

310

I don't think he would consider himself

a highly successful entrepreneur.

311

It's doing fine now, but that's what I

thought when I thought entrepreneurism.

312

And, so I was not about to, like,

own my own business anytime soon.

313

But when I got into this MLM and I

started being introduced to personal

314

development, I really noticed what

a, you know, limited mindset I had,

315

and it shifted everything for me.

316

And so I really dove in, in

true ADHD style, even though

317

I didn't know I had ADHD.

318

I dove in wholeheartedly, and I ended up

in burnout, and that burnout was something

319

unlike anything that I've experienced.

320

I felt like my brain went

numb, my body went numb.

321

I had three kids at the time.

322

I thought something broke.

323

And I was actually worshiping when,

in my mind's eye, I saw these four

324

letters, ADHD, and I was like, that

was the most bizarre thing to be

325

in prayer, and then to see ADHD.

326

but I followed that inclination and

started researching, and it was so

327

intriguing how all the memes, how all

the jokes, everything I was giggling

328

at and I was relating with, I was

like, "Hold the show," like, "What?

329

How is this me?

330

This isn't what I saw my students have.

331

How is this me?"

332

And then I started

studying women and ADHD.

333

And so about nine months after that,

I went and got an official diagnosis

334

and worked with a neuropsychiatrist.

335

And, since then it's been nothing but

helpful for me to explain what I have

336

been trying to manage and understand

about myself for my whole life.

337

Speaker: And so then after

that you went into coaching?

338

Speaker 2: I actually felt prompted

to start to share my pre-diagnosis

339

story in the fall of 2019.

340

And so I started on Instagram saying,

"Hey, I, I feel like I might have this."

341

And so I started reading

things and then I'd post.

342

Read and post.

343

And I didn't know COVID

was coming, and it came.

344

And so then everyone was online,

and so then everyone had questions,

345

and I already had a little bit of

momentum on TikTok and Instagram.

346

And so I actually gathered about 30

coaches, psychologists, psychiatrists,

347

experts in the field of ADHD, and I

created my own little ADHD directory.

348

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

349

Speaker 2: And so people would come

to me for a consultation, and I would

350

sort them to my re- the resources.

351

And then I also got trained by all these

coaches not trained, like, officially,

352

but I, I created a system where I got

to see all these different kinds of

353

coaches within the ADHD sphere, and after

about a year and a half, two years, I

354

decided to pursue my own certification.

355

but it was coaching many ADHDers before

then on social media how to run social

356

media businesses, et cetera, but became

a ADHD life coach after that point, yeah.

357

Speaker: Huh.

358

So, so cool.

359

Speaker 2: Yeah.

360

It's pretty cool.

361

Good journey.

362

Speaker: I love what you said

about, like, if they need…

363

If they really want help, then we wanna

make sure that we help them, and if…

364

And we also need to let

them manage their own life.

365

So is there a difference

between helping and enabling?

366

Speaker 2: Mm.

367

Speaker: Yeah What would

you say about that?

368

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think, it's

sometimes it might be hard to tell.

369

That's the frustration of, parenting.

370

I like to say that ADHD is not

an excuse, it's an explanation.

371

And so if I can explain what

I'm experiencing and I'm still

372

not getting results that I

like, then I can go to work.

373

Again, I can start to figure it out.

374

But if it's an excuse, then I can

explain or give this excuse as to

375

what's happening, and it's almost

like there's nothing to do about it.

376

Speaker: Right.

377

Speaker 2: And so in that account, once

again, they're gonna have to want it.

378

But you've gotta start to see where is

the effort, 'cause if, for example, you

379

know, with my kids, if I say, "Clean up

your room," over and over and over again,

380

but I offer no further scaffolding and

support to help prioritize, to visualize,

381

to help them see what clean up your room

means, and make sure that it's scaffolded

382

for their ability, then I'm the one who's

being a little ridiculous, honestly.

383

Because if I know that they have ADHD

and I keep saying the same thing over

384

and over again, I'm not giving any time

elements, I'm not gamifying it, I'm not

385

helping do all the things that their

prefrontal cortex struggles to do.

386

It's not that it can't do

it, it just struggles to do.

387

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

388

Speaker 2: Then I should be more mad

at myself than I am at them, honestly.

389

So I know that doesn't translate

dir- exactly to adult children, but-

390

Speaker: Well, but it

does in a lot of ways.

391

I have people come to me often- Yeah

… and say, "My child's not going to school.

392

Like, I've paid for their tuition

and their housing, and I'm paying

393

for them to be there, and They're

failing all their classes,"

394

Speaker 2: Yeah

395

Speaker: or just not

engaging with other people.

396

They're just gaming all day or-

397

Speaker 2: Hmm.

398

That's

399

Speaker: so hard … you

know, whatever it is.

400

And then they want to know, "So how

much help do you give when, when

401

they're not sort of meeting me halfway?"

402

Doing it, yeah.

403

And, and so I do think it might be useful

to know, is this a scaffolding issue?

404

Have I not provided enough,

405

Speaker 2: support

406

Speaker: Resources and support-

407

Speaker 2: Yeah … to

408

Speaker: help them.

409

Speaker 2: I think it's just

a person by person idea.

410

man, I was just thinking about that.

411

This week, 25 years ago, is when I

met all of my friends at BYU for our

412

freshman year, and I was comparing

that to how, you know, I used to have

413

to look in the whites of their eyes.

414

We didn't have phones.

415

It's like- Yeah … "Hi, nice to meet you.

416

I'm Camden," you know?

417

And how, how grateful I was that I

didn't have nearly the distractions that

418

they do, or I couldn't hide nearly as

much back then as I can, I could now.

419

And so because of all of these,

availabilities to, to kids with ADHD

420

or any neurodivergence or high anxiety,

whatever it is, that tendency to hide is

421

real, and if they are shaming themselves

because they can't get themself out

422

of it, then they're not gonna wanna

reveal that to you either unless- Yeah

423

you're a safe space to hear.

424

So I work with a lot of college kids,

but the thing is, they're willing.

425

Like, they, they're excited for our

sessions because I'm there to say,

426

"Okay, let's look at all your classes.

427

Let's look at your schedule.

428

Let's break it down."

429

And they can say, "I'm so

overwhelmed, I can't leave the house.

430

so then we have regulation skills to

help them with that, but that's the

431

thing, is they have to be willing, in

order to say, "I think I'm struggling.

432

I think I need help.

433

I think I need a professional."

434

And, so I, I g- I think it's

just, like, on a personal basis.

435

You have to feel it out.

436

What I do know is that if you keep

doing the same thing over and over

437

and it's not getting different

results, then it's probably

438

something for you to consider, right?

439

Yeah.

440

Definition of insanity type of idea

is doing those same things over

441

and over without different results.

442

And so, it's okay to, to get them

the support that they really need.

443

That would be really hard, though.

444

And I think

445

Speaker: safety, you bring up- Yeah … is

a really important point, that if they

446

are struggling, and if, if you saw

evidence that they were struggling

447

before they left home, it would be

great- Mm-hmm … to put those, those

448

things into place even before they leave.

449

Like, "Here are some things that

might happen when you go to school.

450

it might feel overwhelming."

451

Speaker 2: Yeah.

452

" Speaker: Or you might do poorly on a

test and then feel like, 'Oh, no, I…"

453

You know, 'cause even a, a brain

that doesn't have ADHD often

454

catastrophizes when something-

Yes … goes wrong and believes that,

455

you know, we can't recover from it.

456

And so the more we can have open

communication I have so many clients

457

we've talked about like if they

failed out of a year of college,

458

it is not the end of the world.

459

Like look, we're all still alive.

460

Speaker 2: Yep.

461

Speaker: And we're

gonna learn- It, it took

462

Speaker 2: me seven years

to get my bachelor's, so

463

Speaker: you know, and I- And

we're gonna learn a whole bunch

464

from this experience- Yeah

465

together, and-

466

Speaker 2: Yeah

467

… Speaker: it doesn't mean I don't

have any expectations of you.

468

We can certainly have

expectations of them.

469

We can hold the goal tightly, and

we can hold the procedure loosely.

470

Yes, yeah.

471

Like, how the process goes- The how.

472

Yeah … right?

473

The how to get there.

474

We don't know- Yes … exactly

how we're gonna get there.

475

Yeah.

476

I have a, a nephew who

went through college.

477

He went to Utah State, and they,

will let you write your own

478

degree if you want to, and he has-

479

Speaker 2: Whoa

480

… Speaker: pretty serious, dyslexia.

481

Mm-hmm.

482

And so he created this program

that was amazing, and I'm so,

483

so proud of him, because high

school was really hard for him.

484

I mean, he has really stuck

to it, and he graduated.

485

Wow, that's

486

Speaker 2: amazing.

487

Speaker: And he's such an amazing kid.

488

He's just so fantastic.

489

But he did have to figure out how to

do it on his own terms, because he,

490

he doesn't have a brain that works

exactly like what, what we're teaching

491

in a regular, typical college setting.

492

And I do think we're getting better

as a society, at recognizing that

493

everybody doesn't learn the same way.

494

Yeah.

495

But we still, we still have

a ways to go with that.

496

Speaker 2: Yeah.

497

And I think there's a loss, too.

498

Like, there's an expectation, the

things that we were afraid of, of

499

like, oh man, what about if I fail

my first year of, you know, college?

500

That meant probably something different

to me or to you or to one of your

501

clients than it might even mean to

your child, so helping them be honest

502

about what that actually means for

them and bringing your own, kind of

503

like what you said, permission into

it, that of course it would be great

504

to not have to pay for two years of

school and only get credit for one.

505

But at the same time, if we've known

that this is how we do school, it takes

506

us some time to start to get acclimated

and understand what our resources are and

507

everything, and we're still encouraging

that maybe a four-year degree will

508

take five years or more, that that

doesn't mean that they're a failure.

509

It just means that we're gonna have

to give some buffer time to kind

510

of acclimate and get used to it.

511

And if you can do that without a ton

of shame upfront, and also not a ton

512

of permission, I mean, not like this

is a perfect science, but like you're

513

saying, a little bit more acceptance

and understanding is gonna really help.

514

I mean, I in the end ended up

paying for all of my college, so

515

it was all on me anyway, you know?

516

But I, I remember calling my mom my

first year and I got a F on a sociology

517

test, and she was like, "What?

518

Why are you s- It's fine.

519

You're fine."

520

And I was so, like- Afraid

that I was letting her down

521

by my poor grades, you know?

522

And even though I was trying my hardest,

and she's like, "Camden, you've shown me

523

your whole life that you try hard, right?

524

So I'm not worried about this."

525

And I know not every ADHDer looks

like that, but you know your kid.

526

You know their strengths,

you know their challenges.

527

And so however it has worked in

the past or hasn't worked in the

528

past, that's gonna inform how you

can support presently for sure.

529

Speaker: So good.

530

so if you realize later in life that

you have ADHD and look back and see

531

that you had some relationships with

some friction in them, like have

532

you been able to trace back some of

your own challenges to having ADHD?

533

Oh, yeah.

534

Like did you have any challenges in

your relationship with your parents?

535

Speaker 2: interestingly, no.

536

but that, I think, was because

of other, other things.

537

We weren't, we weren't really

allowed to feel emotion a whole ton.

538

I guess that's the

wrong way of putting it.

539

a variety of emotions

weren't modeled in our home.

540

It was kind of, like,

single-noted most of the time.

541

Like, real chill.

542

You gotta just be chill.

543

Like, don't be high, don't be low.

544

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

545

Speaker 2: and so, there was a

relationship that got really kind of

546

sketchy, and that's when I became a mom.

547

Because now, all of a sudden, I had

frustrations, and they were really

548

big emotions that I was never able

to express or never open to express-

549

Speaker: growing up.

550

Or it was

551

Speaker 2: never modeled

552

Speaker: to you.

553

Never modeled.

554

Like, so you never saw your

mom be frustrated, so now-

555

Speaker 2: No.

556

Speaker: No … how come

I'm feeling so frustrated?

557

And no one ever told me

it would be like this.

558

Speaker 2: Yes.

559

And I was the oldest of seven, and I

was an elementary school teacher, and

560

we went through infertility for six

years and then adopted our oldest.

561

So I thought, "I am

the best adoptive mom."

562

Like, "I got this."

563

Like, "This is gonna be incredible."

564

And so when I found it extremely

frustrating and then had two babies

565

within two years, when I got pregnant

and I wasn't sleeping at all at

566

night, six to seven times a night…

567

They're both neurodivergent,

both these girls, and oftentimes

568

they don't sleep well.

569

And then I didn't know I had ADHD,

and so I had these massive emotions.

570

It…

571

You know, I call it the dark days.

572

It, it was massive confusion for

me, and it really impacted my

573

relationships with my kids, and

I felt like I had to mask still.

574

I had to, like, show up,

'cause I still was me.

575

but I was having all of these

different emotions, and I was like,

576

"Why can't I keep it together?"

577

essentially.

578

and s- so I, I learned a lot

more about myself that way.

579

I also had a relationship with school.

580

And so w- looking back upon school and,

you know, traditional schooling, I worked

581

twice as hard for twice as long to get

half of the grade that all my peers did.

582

And this isn't true for everyone with

ADHD, but it is a common occurrence

583

for women with ADHD in school,

is that we fly under the radar.

584

Because we're often, you know,

willing to nod our head and smile

585

and look like we're paying attention.

586

our hyperactivity is in our mind.

587

It's not necessarily on the outside.

588

Not right

589

Speaker: now.

590

Yeah.

591

Speaker 2: Yeah.

592

We…

593

So former ADD is ADHD inattentive, which

means we kind of daydream, and we make

594

lots of connections and everything, but

we look like we're with you, but we're

595

on a whole different planet in our brain.

596

And, Things didn't stick,

dates, times, names.

597

And so, I mean, it, it was

just really, really hard.

598

And so when I got diagnosed

later, I was like, "Oh my gosh,

599

that makes so much more sense."

600

Mm-hmm.

601

"Oh, I'm not broken.

602

I just have a brain that's so different,"

and no one knew that, and I was still

603

in, like, AP classes, so there was lots

of direct instruction and memorization,

604

which is not my ADHD superpower.

605

Some people, once again, are twice

exceptional and are amazing that way.

606

but it, that was not me.

607

I'm, I'm not, like, book smart.

608

I, I'm, yeah, much more just a hard worker

and love application and love people.

609

So that made a lot more sense.

610

and then I think the last

relationship is just what I enjoyed

611

and what I was successful at.

612

And so looking back, it was adventure,

things that were performance,

613

creativity, arts, music, leadership.

614

Like, that's where I really

could turn on my light.

615

ADHD is like a magnifying glass

to our personality in many ways.

616

And so when we're interest-driven

brains, which is what ADHD is-

617

Anything that's interesting to

us, we can turn the heat up on.

618

And so it just so happened that those

were the things that I loved, so of

619

course I created a whole life around them.

620

anyway, that…

621

Yeah, so maybe not relationships,

a- actual people, but it

622

makes a lot more sense now.

623

Speaker: Yeah.

624

I am curious to know what you're doing

to try to model big emotions and how

625

to deal with them for your own kids.

626

Speaker 2: honestly,

it's still a struggle.

627

I'm having to manage myself, still, and

I, I think the model has been exceptional

628

with some massive caveats to it.

629

you use the model.

630

Speaker: Yeah.

631

Speaker 2: yeah.

632

so when you look at the thought line and

the emotion line, and y- and I think of

633

it more as I have to look at it in two.

634

What's my limbic ADHD brain telling

me, and then what's my value base?

635

I call it my VIP tour guide.

636

Like, what's the tour guide know that

I want, or the captain of my ship?

637

And so there's this first one that

is either trauma or ADHD or something

638

that's speaking to me pretty loud,

and then there's even, like, the

639

Camden personality of just, like,

kind of a little bit more self-doubt.

640

And then there's the one that,

that wants what I want really.

641

And so that's been helpful for

me, long-term, you know, long-term

642

goal-setting with my kids.

643

I, use- try to use humor.

644

Mm-hmm.

645

I, I've created a system

called the POINT system.

646

Pause, 'Cause we're really impulsive with

ADHD, so pause, get out of our brain, fall

647

into our body, nurture our body, reassure

it, that's the N, and then turn to love.

648

and for me, that's bringing

God into it as well.

649

And r- remember that the person in

front of me I love and I care about.

650

And so just that intentionality

of not staying in m- my mind but

651

coming into my body and reminding

my body that it's safe is a really

652

important regulatory piece for ADHD.

653

'Cause sometimes you get into

your body with ADHD or trauma

654

and it still doesn't feel safe.

655

so that nurture piece.

656

So I, I'm still f- figuring out.

657

You know, I got, like, some tweens

o- on alert, a first teenager, girls.

658

They're very outgoing children,

very passionate children.

659

but I do, I will sing my needs or

I'll sing my frustration sometimes

660

or I'll move my body, shake it out.

661

I'll go outside.

662

I'll go into the garden, come back.

663

Lots of repair, lots of circling

back talks, lots of curiosity.

664

"I'm noticing.

665

Okay, I'm seeing you're

having some big emotions.

666

No problem.

667

I'm here for you."

668

What is it that we need?

669

What are we feeling?

670

What's going on?

671

So, depends on if I'm the one

being triggered or if they are,

672

or if they're triggering- Right

673

you know, triggering me.

674

But yeah, just a lot of patience.

675

And I think 13 years of practice-

676

Speaker: Yeah

677

… Speaker 2: has helped a bit.

678

Mm-hmm.

679

Speaker: I think that deescalation

not matching the high energy, coming

680

in with high energy- Yeah … I- It,

681

Speaker 2: it

682

Speaker: doesn't work.

683

a few months ago, a neighbor of mine

told me that his mother worked at

684

the DMV, and her tactic was the more

angry people came in, the louder you

685

yelled, the quieter she would get.

686

And she said- … eventually

it would bring them back down.

687

But if I would've come back with

the same high energy, it would've

688

just escalated even further.

689

So she had- Yeah … just learned to get

just quieter and calmer and, you know.

690

It's perfect.

691

Which is- a challenging thing that you

have to practice, 'cause that's not-

692

Oh, yeah … something we naturally do.

693

'Cause our nervous systems

also get triggered with

694

somebody else's dysregulation.

695

So-

696

beginning with ourselves and,

like, calming that down before

697

we engage is really important.

698

Speaker 2: Yeah.

699

We buzz each other, don't we?

700

Yes.

701

Speaker: For, for sure.

702

Speaker 2: Yep.

703

Speaker: So if you realize that you have

patterns of forgetfulness or emotional

704

reactivity or inconsistency, you see them

in yourself or you maybe see them in a

705

child, and that's frustrating to you, how

do you keep from going into shame spirals?

706

Like, "What's wrong with me?

707

Why do I keep doing this?

708

Why does this keep happening?"

709

So I guess it's two parts.

710

What do you do when it's in you?

711

What do you do when it's, when it-

712

Speaker 2: In your kid … with the

713

Speaker: child.

714

Yeah.

715

Yeah.

716

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the

first thing is just to recognize

717

it's okay to be frustrated.

718

You know, there's the idea that you name

it to tame it, and it is frustrating.

719

I don't know how else to put it, you know?

720

It, it is really obnoxious when you put

something into your phone and you're

721

like, "Okay, there's an alarm there,"

only to find out that you put 2:45 instead

722

of 2:15, and so you're late, you know?

723

And you're like, "No, that was

supposed to help me," and I

724

wish that that's not happened as

many times as it has, you know?

725

It really is that attention to detail

that doesn't stick with ADHDers.

726

So I think it's okay to feel frustrated.

727

It's even okay to be embarrassed.

728

It's, it's okay to wish that that it was

a little different, but that's different

729

than saying, "You're embarrassing," or

that I'm a failure, or that I'm, you

730

know, worse of a person than someone else.

731

Very different ways

of, of looking at that.

732

And so whether that's your

child or it's yourself, that's

733

something that you can foster.

734

Now, you can't change your

child's mind, you know?

735

They're gonna have to go through their

own healing journey and acceptance

736

journey, but that will be so much

easier if you're able to show them

737

and separate the difference between a

behavior versus who they are as a person.

738

And I'll tell you as the parent to

ADHDers who sometimes my negative

739

narrative is I should know better,

because this is my life's work, right?

740

I should know better.

741

I shouldn't be a human mom, but sometimes

it's still difficult as kids are growing,

742

and remember that- most people with ADHD

are two to three years behind emotionally

743

than most neurotypicals as well.

744

So you could have a 20-year-old

who's still acting like a

745

16, 17-year-old emotionally.

746

and that's actually why

they're diagnosed with ADHD.

747

So there's a lot of, "You

should know this by now," like,

748

"What's actually happening?"

749

Like, "Why haven't you

picked up on this by now?"

750

That type of feeling inside of a parent.

751

and that comes from scarcity, right?

752

Speaker: Yeah.

753

Speaker 2: it comes from are

they gonna be okay in the end?

754

Because most of the time, like

you look at them, the kids, and

755

you're like, "They're okay."

756

They might be a little stinky.

757

They might have some stuff on

the floor in their bedroom,

758

but it's not like they're…

759

They're living.

760

They're, they're alive.

761

We just have to wait for them to catch

up and for something to click in.

762

That does not mean that we can't

model good behavior and hold

763

them to expectations, though.

764

That's different.

765

if I can give a short example, I do have

chore charts at home, and I know that

766

most of your people have adult kids, but

I have a chore chart for myself because I

767

know that my ADHD brain does not help me.

768

And so I have my top 15 chores that

I want to get done more frequently

769

than not, 'cause I know I'm not

intrinsically motivated to clean, and I

770

put those onto my chart, and then when

they're done, I just move them over.

771

And, so at least once a month,

these 15 areas are getting touched.

772

Speaker: Nice.

773

I

774

Speaker 2: love that.

775

And that might not, that might not

feel like enough for some people who

776

are doing a lot of these things daily

or weekly, but for me and my brain, if

777

I'm doing it once a month, like that

is a massive win because otherwise

778

it's out of sight, out of mind.

779

Speaker: Right.

780

Speaker 2: I guess that's why I

love working one-on-one with people

781

is we can find what's tailored

to their ADHD and their needs.

782

but they can do that for themselves

and for their kids as well.

783

Speaker: Oh, I love that.

784

I talk a lot about rupture and repair,

which we have in any kind of brain.

785

But when you've had a situation

where you've had a blow-up because of

786

dysregulation or some ADHD response to

something, what does repair look like?

787

is it different with someone

that has an atypical brain?

788

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

789

Yeah, it's a, it's a good question.

790

I, I think that the blow-up

is often a little different.

791

I think you're gonna see a lot bigger

emotions if they're very unleashed.

792

Okay.

793

Though ADHDers can go extremely big or

they can go extremely internal and do the

794

silent treatment and stonewall as well.

795

So either one, is equally as intense.

796

but your, your question

is more on the repair.

797

And the more important thing to

remember in any situation, I think,

798

is, is this person regulated enough

that they can have this conversation?

799

And do they consent?

800

Do they consent to have

this conversation with me?

801

I can't force repair.

802

I can't force their heart to be open.

803

And autonomy is so important for ADHDers.

804

I remember, speaking of this type of

thing, my husband used to come in on

805

Saturdays and he was like, "All right.

806

What are we gonna do today?"

807

And this was, like, my day that I

finally didn't have to do anything.

808

You know, my kids didn't have school,

and he was home from work, and we could

809

be a little bit more loose with, you

know, time constraints and et cetera.

810

And I would get so defensive in my body.

811

My nervous system was

just like prickly pear.

812

It was just, ugh, when he would do that.

813

And so instead, once I figured

out what it was, I'd say, "Hey,

814

can you come check in with me?"

815

Something like, "I'd like to

talk about the rest of the

816

day or s- this X, Y, and Z.

817

let me know when it's a better time,

when it's a good time for you."

818

And often what I would respond

with is, "Okay, perfect.

819

Let me finish this up.

820

I just need five minutes to get

my brain regulated and ready to

821

transition into the next thing."

822

and so that autonomy and that permission

to, to transition and to regulate and

823

transition is so non-automatic in the ADHD

brain that when we're given the choice to

824

regulate ourself, we're so appreciative,

that it's not just blindsided, brought

825

up to us, even if it is a repair

conversation, which is so funny.

826

So it might sound something like,

"Hey-" I messed up yesterday

827

and I'd like to apologize.

828

Would now be an okay time?

829

And that's how you begin.

830

and so there's autonomy there, and then

there's coming back to talking about it.

831

yeah.

832

Or if it's the ver- vice versa,

"Hey, I noticed last night you were

833

having some big emotions and I'd

really like to show my support.

834

Let me know if this is an okay

time for us to talk about that."

835

Speaker: I love Leah Davidson.

836

When I went through her nervous system

training- Mm-hmm … she talked about how

837

the nervous system thrives on options.

838

Oh, yeah.

839

Like, it's so important to feel

like you're not trapped, and that-

840

Speaker 2: Yes

841

… Speaker: there's only one way that it

has to be done, and there's so much

842

safety created when I have options.

843

Yeah.

844

So I totally relate to what you're

saying, when you feel like someone's

845

going, "All right, let's do it this

way," and you're like, "I didn't even…"

846

Speaker 2: Know we were

going to do anything.

847

Speaker: That's right.

848

Yeah.

849

And so I think that's such-

Yeah … good, good counsel in any

850

relationship, not just with your kids.

851

Mm-hmm.

852

So I think that's great.

853

So for our last question, I want…

854

I also will want you to tell

people where they can find you.

855

But what is a small shift that a family

could make to ease a relationship

856

with an ADHD family member?

857

Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I think that s-

something we talk about a lot, my

858

husband and I, is just this idea, and,

and not everyone is gonna like this,

859

I'm just gonna say that straight out

because it sounds harsh, but that ADHD

860

is a disability And when … If, if I

was a amputee and I only had one leg,

861

or I only had one eye, or one arm,

or whatever it is, you would not send

862

me to baseball practice the same way.

863

You would make sure that you

were supporting me in a way

864

that was supportive for my body.

865

And a lot of the time, because our

disability is invisible, we think if

866

we just repeat the instructions the

exact same way a million times, all of

867

a sudden I'm gonna grow an arm again, or

I'm gonna grow a leg, and that's unfair.

868

And so something that my husband and I

remind ourself of is this is a disability.

869

Like, I wear contact lenses in my eyes.

870

I would never drive my car

without my contact lenses.

871

I would hurt someone severely, and

i- it's just not a wise choice.

872

Are we showing compassion and setting up

systems and scaffolds for someone who, in

873

effect, is missing a limb in some ways?

874

And that doesn't make

them any less of a person.

875

Speaker: Right.

876

Speaker 2: I mean, there, there's this

famous baseball player in the '90s that

877

ha- was an amputee, and he was a pitcher.

878

He, he threw a no-hitter for the, I

think it was the Angels, and he did

879

it by, like, throwing the ball and

then putting the mu- the mitt on his

880

working hand, and then s- shuffling the

baseball out of that to the first base.

881

He did that, but he had

to be coached differently.

882

Speaker: Right.

883

Speaker 2: And I think that shift of,

of not being frustrated by the … Like,

884

not letting frustration be the only

fuel for the amputee kid, okay?

885

But letting it be what it is, and

then figuring out how we might get

886

to know that disability, get to,

get to know that brain difference in

887

a way that supports them to be the

absolute best human they ever could be.

888

Speaker: So good and so helpful.

889

Thank you, Camden.

890

I just really appreciate it.

891

Oh, yeah.

892

And I don't think there are any

families in the world that don't have

893

some neurodivergent children in it.

894

Yeah.

895

And so the more aware we can become

of it, and not make it be something

896

that people feel ashamed of or,

or broken in some way- Yeah, right

897

it's just like you said, we gotta figure

out how to work with it so that we can,

898

and get the creativity, and the beauty,

and the thinking outside the box.

899

Yeah, we didn't even get to s-

900

Speaker 2: we

901

Speaker: didn't even get to talk

about that one, but- Right, all of

902

these things that, that a person-

Yeah … with that kind of brain

903

can problem solve and, and- Yes

904

do things in such different ways that

you're like, "How did you think of that?

905

How did you-

906

Speaker 2: Once you're regulated, all of

what you're talking about is unleashed.

907

Speaker: Yeah.

908

Speaker 2: So if you can help that kid

be successful with the boring tasks of

909

life, regulated- the world's their oyster.

910

I'm just telling you.

911

And that's adults, and that's

kids, and that's everyone.

912

But they don't have an au-

automatic way to get that body

913

to, to a base ground level.

914

they have to learn.

915

They have to be coached and,

and that has to be modeled.

916

And so, yeah, you have the

opportunity of doing that.

917

Speaker: So great.

918

Yeah.

919

Well, tell people how they

can come in contact with you.

920

Speaker 2: Oh, I'd love that.

921

So I'm active on social media.

922

You can find me at The Busy

Brained Saint on social media

923

and on Instagram, or camden_adhd.

924

but I'm most active and most

consistent these days on my podcast

925

called The Busy Brained Saint.

926

And my podcast, can be found…

927

Everything can be found

at camdenadhdcoaching.com.

928

Mm-hmm.

929

Okay.

930

Great.

931

My website.

932

Thank you so much.

933

Thank you.