What if joy isn’t just a feeling—but a radical act of resistance in times of chaos?

In a world filled with uncertainty, division, and personal adversity, many of us feel guilty for experiencing joy. This episode explores how joy can actually be a powerful force for healing, connection, and resilience. Artist and cyclist Lisa Congdon shares how she reclaims joy despite pain, including recovering from double knee replacements and navigating public vulnerability through her art.

• Discover why choosing joy in difficult times isn’t naive—it’s necessary.
• Hear how Lisa’s journey through injury, recovery, and competitive cycling after 50 will inspire your own path forward.
• Learn how art and community can help us bridge divides, find belonging, and amplify collective healing.

Press play to meet Lisa Congdon and learn how embracing joy, movement, and creativity can help you heal, grow, and show up more fully—no matter what you’re facing.

Discover more about Lisa on her website: https://lisacongdon.com/

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With Whole Again: A Fresh Approach to Healing, Growth & Resilience after Physical Trauma through Kintsugi Mindfulness, listeners explore resilience through personal stories of trauma, scars, and injury while learning to overcome PTSD, imposter syndrome, self-doubt, and perfectionism with self-compassion, self-love, and self-worth. Through insightful discussions on building resilience, fitness, and stress management, as well as mindfulness practices and digital wellness, the show offers practical tools such as breathwork, micro-dose meditation, grounding techniques, visualization, and daily affirmations for anxiety relief and stress reduction. Inspired by the art of kintsugi, the podcast embodies healing as a transformative process, encouraging a shift in perspective from worry and overwhelm to gratitude and personal growth. By exploring the mind-body connection, micro-dosing strategies for emotional well-being, and holistic approaches to self-care, this podcast empowers listeners to cultivate emotional resilience and live with greater balance and intention.

 Hey there, it's Michael. Welcome to Whole again, your home. To discover how to navigate today's uncertainty with more mindfulness, resilience, and grace. And every now and again, I'd like to bring you amazing people. And today I want to introduce you to Lisa Conn. She is an artist, an author. She also has two total knee replacements, so she's in the TKR group that I happen to be in.

She's also a badass cyclist and someone who uses her voice and her platform to create awareness and action to lift everyone's voice up so we can come together in our Kintsugi spirit, we talk about a lot. Life is not linear, nor was our conversation. We talked about joy, her experience with going viral, her total knee replacements, and life as a gravel, cyclist and racer.

Lisa is a colorful, vibrant, energetic force. I just love her and my hunch is you'll love her too. So if you're ready to meet Lisa, settle in and listen to how she sees Joy. Which is the first topic we explore together.

So I would love, uh, to start with joy because we were fellow joy ambassadors. I like to, like to think, and I heard or read somewhere that you said choosing joy, uh, in the face of hatred is radical, and I'd love for you to share more about that.

Yeah. Um, I think that

in a, in a political climate in particular when a lot of people feel, even people who's who, who don't sort of overtly feel oppressed in some way, um, but are sort of aligned with people who might feel oppressed, I.

The sort of like, the way that we tend to think about it is like, I, I can't feel joy, or I'm not allowed to feel joy because people are suffering, or I'm suffering, or my people are suffering. And that's exactly the way, you know, oppressors want. You to feel right that you, you know, they wanna sort of like take the wind out of your sails so that you can't fight back.

And I, I really, I think I used to subscribe to that notion and would feel a lot of guilt when I felt joy in the face of pain or discomfort or, you know, adversity. And now I'm real realizing that. Really, like joy is radical when, especially when we're, we're feeling and expressing joy in the face of, of oppression.

Yeah. Especially now. Mm-hmm. Do you see, do you see joy differently than happiness?

Yeah. I feel like, um, happiness,

I mean. I think that one can feel happy and joyful at the same time. To me, they're a little bit different. Um, I do think both are sort of fleeting. Um, uh, happiness tends to be something that we strive for, right?

That like, um, I want to feel happy and, and we really wanna feel happy all the time. I think a lot of people. Um, think of happiness as something that is like a state of being where I think most people can more easily identify with joy because it's something that we all feel even when, you know, things are hard, right?

Um, you know, we could be going through something really difficult ourselves or in a relationship with somebody who's going through something really difficult. Um, and we might feel really downtrodden, um, but we could like watch a TV show that makes us laugh or have a friend come over and, um, tell us a story that, you know, makes us feel, um, a sense of.

Fulfillment or we could go for a bike ride and, you know, um, breathe fresh air and feel a sense of joy. And the thing I love about Joy is it's like something that if we allow ourselves to, we can really feel like, just feel it at any time. And, um. I think a lot of times we think of emotions as being really binary, right?

Like you're either happy or sad or you're joyful or downtrodden. And I think to the extent that we can think about emotions as um, like coexisting alongside each other and, and just because you feel one doesn't mean you can't feel the together, um, I think makes for like a healthier perspective on life.

I, I, I agree. I think our, our emotions are a little bit like a, a seven layer dip. Like we can have, we can feel grief and we can feel joy, and we can feel other emotions all at one time. You know, as you were talking about happiness. Uh, this week I'm watching the Ken Burns documentary and American Revolution.

I've wondered as I've gone through the, the episodes, if you will, what the happiness industrial complex would look like if Thomas Jefferson didn't put in the pursuit of happiness. Like I wonder, like if he chose different words like, Hmm, would we still be pursuing happiness in the way that we do? I, no, I don't know, uh, questions I ponder when I'm out on a bike ride, which we will get to 'cause it's a source of joy for both of us.

As an artist since, you know, we, we often experience life through our senses, or we do experience life through all of our senses to you. Does, when you think about this, your senses joy, does joy have a color? Does it have a texture?

Does it

have a, does it have a weight?

I that it has. It's so, it's interesting.

I know there is like a, a, a condition where you actually. Think of things in terms of colors.

Yes. Yeah. Synesthesia

or something like that. Yeah,

something like that. I, I, I do not have that, but I, um, I'm just, I don't have it either.

Um, interestingly, I actually have a friend who lives in Massachusetts and she's visiting Portland right now, and I'm gonna see her tomorrow.

I'll ask her more about it. But, um, I, for me, joy is, uh, like, it is definitely a brightness, um, and a sense of levity. I was. A bike ride this morning and it was like a rare sort of dry, beautiful morning. I mean, we have dry, beautiful mornings all the time, but not necessarily in November.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's uh, it's the gray rainy season in the Pacific Northwest usually, right?

Yes. And today is off and on, um, which is actually pretty typical for here. Like, um, you'll see rain in the forecast. Rarely does that mean it's actually gonna rain all day? Oftentimes the sun comes out and there's lots of rainbows.

It's pretty magical. But I was on one of those, you know, fall morning bike rides. It was about 40 degrees, so it was pretty cold, but the sun was out. Um, at, you know, seven 30 in the morning and I was really feeling a lot of joy. And for me it's just like a deep sense, I think, in my chest and which is I think where I carry a lot of stress when I am kind of anxious about certain things in my life or worried about my day in some way.

And, um. I keep a journal, so I, every morning while I'm drinking my coffee and eating my breakfast before I go on a bike ride or go to the gym or start my workday, I write not a lot, but at least a page. And I have been feeling, um, you know, a lot of stress lately. You know, it's about to be the holidays I run a retail business.

The economy's a little bit, um, you know, slow right now and like, how's this all gonna, you know, turn out and, and sometimes I make a gratitude list and I did that today and I was thinking about. And this, it was still dark out and I hadn't left on my bike ride yet, but I was thinking about how grateful I am that I have this tool in my life.

I mean, I have a lot of tools, art included, but that I can rely on when I'm, you know, having a sense of overwhelm about either my own life or about what's going on in the world that I can just go feel freedom and joy. Um. For an hour or two before I start my day. And how lucky I'm to get to do that because it really does like, um, jumpstart my day.

I don't actually get to work until nine 30 or 10 because even though I get up really early because I prioritize riding my bike a few mornings a week and my employees are really amazing and they. Know that even though Lisa doesn't get in until like an hour after they do that, um, it's time well spent because I'm always in a better mood.

Yeah, absolutely. They know that otherwise the boss needs the bike ride. Yeah. To feel better and if the whole day goes better, if Lisa can have a bike, everybody

benefits everybody.

Hey. That's how I, I feel about life. I do believe the world would be more peaceful if more people just rode their bike more.

Yeah. I think that that would be more loving and more freedom. That would be, it would just be generally better if more people rode bikes.

I agree.

Well, so I think for me, joy is like a Fanta Orange pop. It's the color orange. It has that effervescence of a soda. Um, there's citrus. So to me, like that's, um, A little bite to it.

Yeah, a little bite. There's a little, there's a little tang. You know, it's, it's, uh, that, that's, to me, that's joy. When I think of you, I think of, I think of pink and all your art, and I wanna talk a little bit more about. Your art, when you think about this time that we're going through and with this podcast, I use Kintsugi as a, a metaphor for when we have, um, brokenness or we've separated and generally in society, we, I think we can all agree that we're divided and we're not together, and we can find a way to.

Come together, uh, we can repair and come into a, a different form of beauty, right? The original vessel could have been really beautiful, but, you know, we highlight our scars and we celebrate those symbols of our strength and resilience. So I, I wondered like, from your perspective as an artist, how do you think art can help us in these moments where.

Like we, we are struggling and you know, is it, is it a balm or a, a tonic, if you will, to, um, to help us heal or help us come together? And, and I would just love to hear your perspective. I mean,

oh gosh. I mean, I think on a micro level, for me personally, yes, it's definitely a balm. Um, I feel so lucky that I both have this, this.

I can do without struggle. 'cause you know, a lot of anybody can sit down and make art. But I think for a lot of people like their idea of what they wanna make and their skills are so vastly different that sitting down to make art is actually kind of stressful for them. Because, you know, inherently, like in the creative process, you go through a period of of struggle when you're just trying to figure out who you are and what your skills are and practicing and all of that.

But I'm like so far past that, that for me, I get to actually like. Sit down and have this satisfaction on a hard day of like creating something that I like and that I think might actually bring other people joy or, um, you know, some revelation. And I, which leads me to, I think the other part of art that is like kind of on a more meta level is like, I feel also really lucky that I have this tool where I can make things, um, that, you know.

That express how I, like how I'm feeling, you know, and sometimes that's like the angst that I'm feeling and sometimes that's the joy that I'm feeling. And sometimes it's messages around, you know, things that are important to me and I have this tool that I can use to like express those things and share them with other people.

And, you know, I also have a platform on social media. And so there's that other layer of it that like, I, I get to make these things, making these things. I always feels good to me, and then I get to then share those things with the world and I get to express myself and people pay attention to what I say.

And so I feel like I can make a difference and I, I don't take that for granted. I think a lot of people right now want to, um, be part of the conversation around the division. Um. In, at least in our country, and or they wanna express, um, something. And I think for, for those of us who are creatives, like we have all of these, you know, some people have music and some people have poetry and I have art, right?

And like, we get to make things that express sort of how we're feeling about what's happening and encourage people to build community and, you know, and to, um. To show up for whatever's important to them. And I, I, I'm so grateful that I have that because I, I, you know, I see people in my life who don't have those tools and I think they feel sort of lost.

Like they don't know what to do. And I don't, not that there's not anything they could do, but I, I feel grateful that I have, that I have art right now. It's made a huge difference in how I cope and also how I show up.

Yeah. And how you ex and how you express your voice. And I see your art as a way of bringing people together so people can feel connected and less lonely.

And through a lot of the work, uh, people have done through the protests over the last year, uh, there's been a great sense of community. Like, you know, I'm not alone in my thinking, you know, I'm not mm-hmm. To someone with a phone or a computer. Um. Reacting to what's happening in the world. Like there, there are others, there's other, there are others around me that are, um, like-hearted.

Uh, and maybe not necessarily the same perspective. They're not like-minded, but like-hearted and I, I don't feel so alone that, you know, we can, we can do something together. And I think your art mm-hmm. In particular can be that connection that, that. It speaks to people and can Okay. Like I can, we can rally around this community and hopefully people have other communities as well to, um, to offer them support.

So when you Yes. So yeah. Yeah. Go for it.

No, I was gonna say, it's so important right now. I think so many. People feel like, um, I'm under attack or my, you know, people in this particular grouper are being, you know, marginalized and they feel so powerless. And when we come together in community, even if all we're saying is like, this is not okay.

Like, there's a sense of empowerment in that. And I think that's so important.

Yeah. I'm not, yeah, it's not okay. And I, I see you. I see you. Yeah, I see you. And I, I hear you. And um, I dare I say, I love you. You know, human to human, you know, I appreciate you. A lot of times in the circles I dance in, in corporate America, the word love isn't necessarily thrown around a lot, but like, you know, human to human, I, I think it should.

But human, human, like we can, we can love each other even though we may not necessarily see the world the same way and mm-hmm. You know, it's, it. That's the stuff that, um, brings us together. So as an artist, you know, you started before, um, before these damn phones, right? So you, yeah. So, and I know you are an early adopter to Instagram and if you ask a lot of creatives today, there's this like maybe a, a push to like go viral.

Like, you know, have people find out about your work. I was wondering, like, what was that like for you? Like you, you know, you came into this profession as an artist maybe a little bit later in life in your thirties, right? So, and before Instagram was a thing and before going viral, it was probably a thing that we used, we, we talk about.

When that happened for you, when, you know, people really first started noticing your work, I imagine there was just a, a flood of people coming into your life and I, I, I wondered like, how, how did that play with the conversation that you have with yourself and just, you know, uh, the pressure and just that, like that new level that you found yourself in what probably felt like overnight?

Yeah, it definitely happened pretty fast. I mean, that part happened fast. I think the growth to it was pretty normal paced. Um, but. It's interesting, like I haven't quote, gone viral in a few years. Um, and I honestly don't miss it. It's okay. I'm okay with that. Um, I mean, every now and again it's kind of fun, um, to see what happens and you know, what famous person reposts, what you've posted or whatever, but it used to happen to me more often and Instagram's changed and that's part of it.

Like I don't make videos really very. It used to be that, you know, before videos even existed on Instagram, you would, you know, mostly just post still photos or, you know, I was posting my artwork. And, um, a lot of my work for people who aren't familiar has messages in it. And every now and again, I would post something that just resonated for a critical mass of people.

And so it just got shared a bazillion times and then sometimes by famous people and then, you know. I think that, you know, obviously there's like an effect. There's an impact. So, you know, I, my following on Instagram grew very fast in a very short period of time, and it's pretty much leveled off in the last few years since the algorithm has changed it.

I, I still have a lot of followers, but it hasn't grown and it was just like growing exponentially. And every time I had a viral moment, you know, sometimes overnight I would have tens more followers than I before.

I, you know, it really can feel very vulnerable when that happens because you have all of these people who are new to you and your work and um, and you know, they're sort of like, I forget sometimes that as many people look at my work or you know, the things I post on Instagram as they do, I think if I really thought about it, it would freak me out one time.

I. My wife was there with me and she was talking to one of the editors from a publisher that I've worked with before, and I was about to give a talk and she said, um, at the time, I think I had, this was a, a while ago. I have almost half a million followers now, but this was before I had like, really, um, gained a, a big following and there was, um, she's like, you know.

Lisa has like a hundred thousand followers. That's like two stadiums full of people. Right. And like I had never visualized the number of people before and that, you know, she said this to my wife who then shared this story with me and I was like, wow, that's, that's a lot of people, you know? And now it's, you know, four times that much.

But, um, but it, you know, I think part of the reason I don't think about it is it's a little overwhelming to think about like, all of these people sort of. Knowing, feeling like they know you sometimes because I, while I post my artwork, I also post stories about my life and things that I'm going through and very personal journeys.

I had cancer a few years ago. I had total knee replacements last year or two of them. I have, you know, gone through some, you know, other ups and downs in my life and career and shared about them. You know, sometimes I'll be walking down the street or walking through the grocery store and this has happened to me all over the country, even all over the world.

And people will come up to me and say, are you Lisa? Um, and 90 actually a hundred percent of the time, it's always positive. People are so lovely and like, oh, I'm a huge fan, or, I really love your work. Or, you know, um, you've really inspired me and that feels really good. Um, fortunately for me it's been.

Really, you know, all my viral moments sort of led up to some very positive feelings and interactions. Um, and I think the people who are drawn to my work are generally people who share similar values. And so, you know, of course we're gonna resonate, um, with each other and, um, and that's all great. But yeah, sometimes it can feel overwhelming.

And also, you know, there have been times when I have gotten you. Um, there's been a lot of discourse on my Instagram feed about certain topics that I've posted and, um, you know, things are happening because of, um, you know what I'm saying, or my proximity to an issue and debates. Breakout, not necessarily between me and the people who are commenting, but between people commenting.

It's like, what is, what is happening? You know, what is going on? Sometimes it's really surreal. Um, it doesn't happen to me as much as it did. I went through a period of about five years where things like grew very fast. I had a ton of engagement and um, a lot happening and that as much as it's hard that Instagram.

Algorithm has changed. It's also good because there's just less, you know, happening. And that's fine with me. I'm an introvert, so I don't necessarily need to be engaging with people all the time. Yeah,

a good, a good cyclist as an introvert, imagine that. So like a little bit of, uh, alone time. I, thanks for sharing that.

I, you know, just, you know. Your work. I, you know, speaks to so many people. Like one of my favorite, uh, sayings, uh, from your work is like, keep going. Yeah. Um, and so I have, um, every one in my books, I, I sign it, keep pedaling because as I learned how to mountain bike back in the day before suspension and all the tricked out mountain bikes.

I was learning how to get through, uh, like River Creek beds and river beds and rocks and whatnot. And the old y cyclists in my college town who was teaching us kids how to mountain bike, he said, you know, just remember to keep pedaling, right? So if there's an obstacle, uh. Your, your natural inclination will be to, uh, slow stop pedaling and try to get over it.

Whatever you do, do not do that. Keep pedaling. Like, that's the way I, I mean,

I think cycling is such a great metaphor for life. Like I do, I'm actually about to leave on one, um, a week from Sunday. I'm gonna a training camp, but I often, these training camps have a lot of skills work in them. In Oregon, in Central Oregon, in eastern Oregon, we have a lot of sand.

And actually I'm going about to go to Arizona to a training camp where there's also a lot of sand and right. As you probably know, riding through sand is another situation where if you do not keep pedaling. You will fall. And, um, and I, I literally say that to myself. Keep pedaling, keep pedaling, keep pedaling.

So I do think, I do think it's, it, it's just like a great metaphor for life.

No, I, I often say that with all due respect to all the Ted Lasso fans out there, and the line that, you know, soccer is life. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like. Cycling is life. We do it outside. Yeah. Actually the tattoo

outside.

Oh, you, oh, go for it.

Yeah. Have I have a tattoo

on my leg, um, that says Bikes are life, which, yeah. You know? Absolutely.

Yeah. We're, we're out there in the elements and the sun and the rain and the wind and the snow and the, and the ups and the downs, and the twists and the turns, and we're basically naked except for a thin layer of Lycra.

Just a styrofoam helmet to protect us. You know, it's, mm-hmm. It's real, real life. And you, and you have to find a, you have to find a way through, you know, to, to get to whatever destination you're pedaling to. So I, I love to talk more about cycling with you. So when was it that you became a cyclist? Do you remember?

Xer with me. Where, where Gen X? Yes. Yeah.

It was a huge fundraiser all supported. And you ra everybody raised money, so I'm gonna ride, you know. Almost 600 miles to la you know, sponsor me. We raised tons of money for both the California, or I'm sorry, the San Francisco AIDS Foundation and the l LGBTQ center in la and I did that in for the, so he was like, do you wanna, I'm gonna do it because this person I'm dating is doing it.

Do you wanna do it too? And I was like, sure. So, um, I had to get a bike, so I went and bought a road bike and clip in pedals and a helmet. You know, I just, um, went out. I remember going out on my first training ride and like falling because I didn't understand how to cliff in and out properly. Um, the rite of passage of every cyclist out there for every cyclist.

That's right. Um, and I got really into it and loved it. And um, and then of course the event ended and I didn't get on a bike again. Um, for, I, I think, you know, I rode on and off for a little bit, but I like really kind of, um, just abandoned the bike after that. And then I got into a relationship a few years later with the person I'm now married to and she was a cyclist.

And so, you know, ended, you know. Do you ride a bike? And I said, well, I used to. Um, I didn't had, at that point I had sold my bike. Um, and so she bought me like this $500 bike from her neighbor. It was like a trek, aluminum frame or steel frame. It was pretty heavy. Um, but it fit me perfectly. And we started going on bike rides together and, um.

I got like really into it and within like four months I was like, this bike is too heavy. I love this too much. Climbing is too hard on this bike. So I went and bought a, um, a carbon frame bike and that was the bike I had for like another 10 years until, I dunno about probably like five or six years ago and until I upgraded and now I'm on like.

Bike iterations later, because of course I had to buy a gravel bike that was a road bike. Of

course, of course.

You know, I. I'm very involved in the community here, but like at the time we didn't know anybody. And I, I also think during the pandemic, a lot of community built around cycling that didn't exist before, but eventually we found this women's club that we joined and neither of us are part of it anymore, but it was a really great place for us to like get to know other women who rode and.

They led group rides on Saturdays. We ended up becoming really involved in that group for a while and then I got so into cycling when I was on that in that club that I just was like, I'm gonna start competing, which was kind of crazy. I was in my early fifties at the time and I was like, this is crazy that I'm like, you know, 50 and I'm thinking about racing.

I had never raced before in my life, and. Um, but I had these role models, so there was other women on my team who were my age, and some of them even older, who were racing some cyclo cross. Um, not too much gravel at the time, but some road racing. And so then I just, you know, kind of like. Started training more, especially during the pandemic.

And, um, I got a gravel bike because that was like what everybody was doing, and I went off and did like two gravel races. I had no idea what I was doing. In fact, I signed up for this pretty Epic race, which is pretty well known now. It's called Oregon Trail Gravel Grinder, and it's, it's a five day stage race that's like three 50 miles through the Cascades of Oregon and super technical.

No business doing that race, but I signed up for it and I somehow did it during a year where we had a heat dome, so it was like a hundred degrees, you know? It was, it was like how I survived that, I have no idea. But that was the place where I met so many people who. Are now close friends of mine, um, because you're in this sort of like incubator together where you're going through this really stressful thing and, but it's also really fun.

And the woman who now coaches me, I met there and or through that race and um, it was kind of the beginning for me and I just got really, really. I devoted to cycling, started finding all kinds of joy in it, community in it, and got really involved in the cycling community. Um, I ended up leaving the women's club team that I was on and I joined a racing team for a couple of years.

That is so awesome. I know that Oregon Grindr gravel race that is, yeah. That is epic as one of your first races.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I

did it again the next year too. Not, not not. And I've been several years to like, yeah. Like I, I also go have gone. Every year since then to support my coach, who is an elite racer and I drive her van from point to point, um, because it's a point to point race. But, um, it's been such an amazing experience being part of that race and they're, I think they're gonna do it.

They're only gonna hold it for another few years, but I am gonna do it one more time before the race is no more, because I feel like I have to, so Absolutely. Now that I have new knees. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I wanna ask you about your new knees, because I saw, I saw your post about your new knees and going up a particular hill in Portland that I know of.

Uh, but I haven't been up. I've, I've ridden through the whole state of Oregon. Mm-hmm. When I rode across the country. It rained every day while I was in Oregon. I just for the, for the record, sorry. Every, every stinking day I was, so I did not correct until I, until I got to Idaho and then the sun came out.

So, uh, but it was, yeah, it was an epic, epic trip. Mm-hmm. So. So you went and you were basically an overachiever, you decided to get both knees redone.

Yeah.

Um, so tell us a little bit about that experience. 'cause you know, as a, as a podcast, we talk about resilience, we talk about healing, and, you know, I also have my left knee as a total knee replacement.

We, we were. We're part of a, a club of younger total knee replacement people. Right. And so I'd love mm-hmm. For you to share what you feel comfortable sharing about that experience.

Yeah. So

I, um, yesterday, was it yesterday? Or the day before yesterday? No, yesterday I went to the surgeon for my one year checkup for both my knees.

Oh, good. Awesome. I got the x-ray. Yeah, he told me I never had to come back again unless I had a problem, which I took as a good sign. So about a year ago, so my first knee replacement was on October 31st, and my second knee replacement was on December 19th. So I haven't quite gotten to the year. Gotcha. For my right knee.

I knew a couple people, other cyclists who had had knee replacements and um, they had done them like nine months apart thinking, Hey, I'm gonna get one done. I'm gonna get back on the bike within three months. I'm gonna ride for six months and get back in shape, and then I'll have the other one done. But it, it didn't, but they, it didn't quite work out that way.

They were like. The, the healing you're, it's not like after three months you're like, okay, I'm all healed. I'm gonna get back on the bike and, and start training. Like you're, I'm at a year for both my knees and I'm still dealing with some stiffness and a little bit of pain. Like, it's not, it's not a, a clean trajectory.

And I think they didn't realize that and. One of them said to me, if I could do it over again, I would have them done closer together. Because you're already laid out, you might as well just go through the whole thing together if you have to have both knees. And I, my right knee was pretty messed up because I had a, um, I was, I had a skiing accident when I was 17 where I tore my MCL, so I, I still have a, they didn't even remove the pin when they did my knee replacement.

Um. For that surgery. Surgery. And then, you know, there was all kinds of, um, osteoarthritis and it, you know, I've, I've had arthritis in that knee since I was in my thirties because of the knee, because of the knee injury when I was a teenager. And so I've sort of known that I always was gonna have my right knee replaced.

And then during the pandemic I slipped and fell walking down like carpeted stairs and sock feet and, um, tore my meniscus. And because it was pandemic, they were like, well. You can have surgery, but it's gonna be a couple months before we can get you in because we're, we're only taking like, you know, really extreme cases right now.

And they're, they're like, by that point it's gonna heal on its own, but it never really did heal well, and that might, might be partly because I never. I like stayed off the bike for three weeks and then got back on and, you know, I probably messed it up. So at the end of the day, they had to replace both knees because very quickly my left knee became very arthritic because of the meniscus tear that never healed properly.

And so I was like, okay, I'm just gonna do them both. And I, I run a business with, you know, three employees and I, because I planned so far in advance the runway to getting everything in my business. And everything ready for me to take three months off, um, for both surgeries just kind of fell into place. I have a really amazing team of people who work for me, and they held down the fort while I was out.

I did come in a little bit here and there during between surgeries as I started to feel better and could drive and, um, we had some zoom meetings and staff meetings and things, so it wasn't like completely out of the loop, but I, I basically took.

I like called literal torture. 'cause you

know,

basically you're, well

PT equals pain and torture as you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole point in physical therapy with your knee, like the number one job, your number one job is to like bend your knee again and it's really, really painful and acutely painful in the first three or four weeks.

So you have to go and force yourself to do it and you gotta do these exercises at home. And so that was really my number one job. And, um. The doctor, my doctor was really clear that like I couldn't get back on my bike. I could ride my trainer as long as I could bend my knee enough and I could, you know, do stationary bike as much as I wanted.

But I couldn't ride outside for three months after my second surgery. So, um, on March 19th, which was three months after, um, my second surgery, or maybe it was like the 20th or 21st, I dunno. But like approximately three months later I got on my bike. Clipped in and rode, um, with my friend and I was really like out of shape.

I had been a back on my trainer for a while, but I wasn't doing anything intense. And um, from there I just started the like, rebuilding process. Um, not just, you know, getting my cardiovascular fitness back. Um, because by that point. I had been off the bike for like five months. Um, at that point I was back to work and everything, but I just wasn't riding outside.

And then once my knee was, knees were stable enough, I got on the bike and, and started training. And I went to Unbound, um, at the end of May and raced the 57 mile race. Um, I was very lucky that my friend Yuri Oswald, who's actually a former, um, winner of that race, um. He pulled me through the entire 57 mile race.

So I actually did decently, but only because I had this giant guy like pulling me through the, the winds of the Flint Hills, you know? Um, so that was really fun for me. I was pretty cooked when I was done, but it was fun. And then, um, and then I just kept training and training and training and training and I'm lucky I have a coach.

I'm on a training plan, and we slowly built. My aerobic face again. And you know, in the last two months I've been back to doing like more structured training and VO two max efforts and stuff. Um, and my, my fitness jumped between June and August, like pretty exponentially fast. And now it's sort of plateauing and my, my gains are pretty marginal at this point, but it feels really good to be back on the bike and to be like.

Not just back on the bike. I've been back on the bike for a while, but to be riding with my friends and not having to like, have them wait for me at the top of the hill kind of thing, you know. Um, I raced Rebecca's private Idaho in August, which felt really fun. Still really hard because it was at, you know, it's the elevation in Ketchum is like,

yeah, 9,000 feet.

So yeah, like 9,000 feet. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty, yeah, pretty intense. It was

brutal. It was brutal. Um, but super fun and, um. I've just been working really hard to like, get back to where I was before. And, um, my knees, like I can do things on the bike that I couldn't do, that I haven't been able to do for a while because I was in so much pain before the surgery and, and, and right after the surgery as well.

But now my pain is pretty minimal. If, if none and I can stand while I'm climbing again, I can hammer. Um, so it feels. It feels great, and I'm so happy to be on the other side of that journey. So the ride that you were referring to earlier, I, it just so happened this was not planned, but just so happened on the one year anniversary of my left knee replacement, my was a Friday and my coach assigned me, um, repeats on Thompson, which is this hill in, in, in west, um, Southwest Portland.

That is, it's not super steep, but it's, you know, it's like a, for me, 12 minute climb, but it, you know, she wanted me to go as hard as I could four times. So you climb and.

I, I texted her in the morning and I was like, I am so stoked that I get to climb Thompson four times on the anniversary of my knee replacement. And she was like, we are a weird breed, aren't we? I was like, yes. Um, that, that was the thing I was excited to do was, I actually think is pretty funny, but um. It was, it was pretty horrible actually.

Um, but after I was done, it's like type two fun. You know, you just,

oh, totally. It's like, you know, it's, it's, it's an ultimate joy that, and you're, and you're stoked and you, you feel good about. What you've been able to get through and Yeah. To your coach's per mm-hmm. Uh, point of view. Yeah. We are weird as shit.

Like we are, we are messed up. Yeah. And in such a beautiful way. And um, I love it. I love, um, I love what you've been able to do and now I will give you some encouragement 'cause I am four years out from my total knee replacement that you will still. Be able to have incremental gains even that far out if you Okay.

Stay on it, which I know you will. Um, so I'm. I'm still getting gains out of mine and building mainly strength. Although I'm right now recovering from a, a femur fracture. I broke my femur in five places 'cause I got clothes lined by a utility cable. Oh. So I, um. I am working through that. And, but you still like, like, you know, you, you can do this with, that's great.

And to anyone else listening, like you can have so much great functionality with a total knee replacement and you, you'll have it and then you'll start to say to yourself, why didn't I do this sooner? Yeah. Um, and it's like one, one of those things. So I, I rode across the country, as I mentioned earlier, with.

My, my year anniversary was somewhere in Kansas as I was riding across the country. Oh, cool. So yeah, it was, it was like a big sort, a celebratory moment. I was like, oh yes,

you know, that know. I'm just like

celebrating, celebrating that scar. So when you run into a person that has a toll and knee replacement, the scar is, is telling, we know it right away when we see it, we're like, oh yeah, you have a story and that's.

And I know what you went through. I was waiting. Yeah.

Yeah. I was, I was waiting in line for the time trial at Rebecca's private Idaho, RPI, in August. And, um, because they were sending us off in like, you know, ten second increments or minute increments, whatever it was. And the guy in front of me, I looked down and I was like, you had a double knee replacement.

And he like, he looked at me and he is like, so did you. And so we literally talked for the next 15 minutes that we were in line. Um, swapping stories and, you know, and then I passed him on the time trial, which made me Really, we were, oh, that's even better.

That's, I know. I

was,

that's even better. You, you,

I,

you passed out another white dude.

I know I passed

another white dude, which is like, he was like, yeah, I know another middle aged white dude. Um, he, he was also further out from his knee replacements than I was. Um, so I just thought that was funny. But I cheered him on as I passed him. Of course, of course. You wanna be nice and kind. Yes,

absolutely.

Yeah. But yeah, that was funny.

You, you're, you're not a white. Dude, because the white dude would probably not say anything right As, as they passed, you know, like, you know, we need more kindness in the sport. And I want to finish up our conversation, uh, sort of on this topic as far as the state of, um, the health of the Peloton, if you will.

So, uh, as we're joking here, this sport that we both love and we both share, uh, is pretty much like a bunch of white. Middle aged guys, right. Um, with enough money to buy, buy toys, bike, and uh, right fleet, fancy fleet of wheels, fleet of bikes, a fleet of bikes. It's like, well, what bike do I wanna ride today?

Right? So, and I know part of your work is, you know, in your, and your message too is trying to diversify the Peloton to, um, uh. Have it be more inclusive, more, more diverse. The, some of the work I do, I sponsor a team here in New York City. It's the largest, um, team for, for women in the LGBTQ plus community and the transgender community.

Uh, because I, I just believe like. You know, in, in life, going back to cycling is life. In life. We're just better when we have more diversity and inclusion. Like the Peloton just works better. And I would love for you to share like your, your perspective of cycling as a, as a sport and up until now, really the lack of diversity and hope in hopes that we can make it more diverse going forward.

Yeah, I think it's really changing and I think in particular in the, in the gravel scene, um, I think because gravel is sort of like, it's changing because, you know, now anytime anything becomes a thing, people start taking it seriously. And then the UCI gets involved and starts, you know, making rules and stuff.

But the spirit of gravel is like mass start, everybody starts at the same time. I know this is changing, but like the spirit of it is mass start. Um. It's like the mullet, they call it the mullet analogy, which is like business in the front party in the back. Fun party in the back. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, you, you can go on a gravel race like, and be so slow, but as long as you finish or even if you don't finish a SAG wagon picks you up, whatever, like you, you're out.

You know, the whole point is to have fun and stop at the aid stations. And, um, and, and that's part of what. I love about gravel, and that's part of what, you know, even though I often race, like I'm not necessarily in the front, but I'm racing, um, I'm not stopping. I'm like training. I'm trying to win my age group or whatever.

I, I appreciate that other people around me are, you know, are having a party. And I think part of what has made the party in Gravel so cool is, um, this emphasis on like, everyone is welcome. And, um, there are people in the space who are big voices for that. So like Marley Broski who founded all Bodies on Bikes, um, uh, and folks like Abby Robbins, um, uh, queer Gravel talking about, you know, getting more non-binary and trans people on bikes and getting those categories in bike races.

Um, fighting for inclusion. And, um, you know, other cycling clubs who, um, are specifically for Bipoc folks. And I think whatever we can do to support those organizations just like you're doing, um, and give them. The space and the resources they need to thrive, the better the sport is going to be. And um, I think that, you know, road cycling is sort of, you know, I don't know, dying in the United States, as they say dead.

It's dead. Yeah. Um, I do think mountain biking and, and and gravel cycling are, are still alive and well and in those spaces, and I think in particularly in gravel. Um, there's just been so much effort toward inclusion and education and getting more people on bikes and supporting people who can't necessarily afford the equipment, um, what they need.

And, um, I love being part of that because I've met some really amazing people, done some amazing fundraisers to support those groups. And, um, and it, you know, just like. Sort of gives me hope about the future. Like I said, like I feel like cycling is such a great sort of microcosm of like what's happening in the rest of the world.

And it's a, it's a space where it kind of, sometimes it feels like utopia to me. I know there are problems and there are issues and people who are being left out. Things that are happening, um, especially as like the sport becomes more serious, like it becomes more exclusionary, you know? So I'm not, I don't, I don't wanna sugarcoat it, but of any of the sports spaces that I've ever been in, in my life, it is, it does feel like the most inclusive.

Um, we still have a long way to go and it feels really good to be part of that and to support that, that work.

Yeah, I would agree. I think it feels. A bit like mountain biking was and say the, I would say the like early nineties, um, you know, it's still, still got that grass roots we're by the campfire. Uh, we just did, we're all muddy and dirty and we breathe all the gravel into our lungs and we're hanging out, having, you know.

A beverage or some more, and there's good comradery and the whole thing. Uh, that said, to your point, you're still, it's still not as inclusive as it could be cycling in general. And I think my biggest worry is that when the money starts to flow into gravel and how do, how does it change? Like we've, we've seen.

Other parts of our sport change when the money starts coming in. I hope we can be somewhat anticipatory and be really intentional about like, making sure that we create the, or keep the vibe and the community aspect of it. Um, certainly, you know, um, the popularity will grow, which is good because people wanna get off the roads because of safety or maybe just getting deeper into nature.

I love the fact that they are, um, I love zift as an option for people, but I do believe like cycling was meant to be outdoors. Mm-hmm. In the elements. Mm-hmm. Um, and um, yeah, I just, I love the fact that it's gravel is gained in such great popularity and I hope we can stay true to its, um. Its, um, as, as it scales in, as it grow.

Like what, what keeps you hopeful and optimistic about the future as we, uh, pedal forward?

Yeah, I think that, um. I actually was

found. What I've found the most hopeful is really just stuff that's happened in the last month, which is, um, I mean, I think a lot of the no Kings protests that have been happening around the country, um, make me believe that we are like that.

People who normally, um, were more complacent or felt. Um, some even not overt sense of privilege. Like, I don't think people sit around thinking, I'm, but like, you know, oh, this thing doesn't affect me. Now, realize that the thing is affect them and that they're. To stand up and that that movement is growing.

And I think that that gives me hope. I think the midterm elections, gimme hope that, um, that people who are, you know, are willing to show up for humanity and for things that, um, and for the humanity of other people, even if things don't affect them directly. And I think people are becoming less complacent and that, that gives me hope.

I, I love that. That's a good way to end. I do believe, like, yeah. The last several weeks has shown that we can start coming together, that it is possible. Mm-hmm. You

know, we can, yeah. And like we, we might disagree about things Yeah. But we can be united about like where we want this country to head.

So Yeah.

That feels helpful to me. Yeah. The, yeah. The values of, um, how we treat each other, uh mm-hmm. Without. Being cruel without dehumanizing. Mm-hmm. That's right. Uh, finding a way to lean in, it's gonna be difficult. There's not gonna be a magic pill. There's not gonna be a, a special fruit to put in our acai bowl that's gonna make it all go away.

We're gonna have to lean in and if we want community, we're gonna have to put in the work, put in the sweat equity to make it happen. But I believe it's within us. I believe we're strong enough to do it so well, Lisa. Thank you, uh, keep pedaling and I hope one day in the future I'll be able to turn the pedals with you.

So thanks for being up. I know that would

be so much fun. Thank you so much, Michael.

There are many podcasts out there that also release their episodes in video, almost like a TV talk show, but here on whole, again, I try to keep it old school, just the audio. But with Lisa, I am compelled to find a way to turn some of our video into reels or YouTube shorts because her aesthetic is so damn awesome.

I love her bold, aesthetic and style. Her overall look plus her heart, her care, her determination, her courage to pivot, her openness, her vulnerability. I love it all, and I hope you did as well. I hope you took a couple different lessons from Lisa and her story. I'll include her website's link in the show notes because after all, it's a podcast and it needs show notes.

I know I plan to pick up many gifts from her shop for the holidays, and I hope you'll join me in that we need to support our artists because art is so essential. When things feel so uncertain, we can look to the artists to give us comfort, hope, optimism, joy. And Lisa is definitely one of those people, and I hope you agree.

So thanks for listening, and as always, thanks for being part of our community and being here and showing up and making a difference. If you haven't yet signed up for the free supportive text messages, I send out about three times a week, you can text me. Hold again to 8 6 6 6 1 2 4 6 0 4. And I'll set you up.

And if you wish to learn more about creating beautiful ripples and how to prevent a bad moment from turning into a bad day, please visit my website, Michael O'Brien schiff.com. And sign up for my newsletter called The Ripple Effect, and join us each Monday, Wednesday, and Friday here at Whole Again, and discover how you can heal, grow, and become more resilient and celebrate our scars as golden symbols of strength and resilience.

Until then, remember, you can always come back to your breath. You've got this. And. We've got you.