Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers, as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Laura and Xhafer wonder if any Crusade watch order makes sense. Meanwhile, Matheson gets an evaluation and Galen leads the Excalibur on a hyperspace adventure in Crusade: Episode 3 - The Well of Forever.

Hello and welcome to Who Are You?

2

This is the podcast hosted by two

former strangers, but now friends,

3

who've gotten to know each other

while rewatching a favorite show

4

from their childhood, Babylon 5.

5

I'm Jaffer,

6

Laura: And I'm Laura.

7

Xhafer: and Laura, you had

something you wanted to talk

8

about

9

Laura: a thought last night.

10

I'm, I'm currently synthesizing

a bunch of information, right?

11

Um, like, yes, yes.

12

Xhafer: I mean, there

was just about something

13

Laura: no, no, no, no.

14

This is school is making me synthesize

a lot of things and I'm not able to

15

like partition that out and be like,

I am synthesizing only for school.

16

Like my brain like branches out

into the other things I'm doing.

17

Right.

18

and so one of the things that we've

been doing in my judgment and decision

19

making course is reading a whole bunch

of papers about like experimental

20

accounting research, which sounds like.

21

Made up,

22

Xhafer: For sure.

23

Laura: but it's basically taking like

some psychological experiments and

24

applying them to the accounting setting.

25

Right.

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Xhafer: Okay.

27

Laura: idea is that, you know,

the accounting professional is a

28

bit of a specific kind of person.

29

So let's take these like psychological

concepts and apply them to that

30

professional setting and see like, does

the concept hold, is there something

31

that's mediating it, changing it?

32

Like Is the professional

different, or does it react to

33

standard human things sometimes?

34

So, one of the papers that I read recently

was very interesting, and it was about

35

audit professionals in particular.

36

And so the audit profession is like,

you know, you're digging through

37

to make sure somebody's numbers

are right, basically, generally.

38

Xhafer: Actually, I spend a lot

of my day working with audit

39

Laura: yeah, yeah,

40

Xhafer: I make reports for audit teams

41

Laura: it's a, that's a very

generalized description for the,

42

the lay person in the audience.

43

But, one of the things that this paper

studied about auditors was does the order

44

of, that the information is presented to

you affect the outcome of your decision?

45

Xhafer: Okay.

46

Laura: So,

47

Xhafer: I see where this is going.

48

Laura: So I got to thinking as we were

watching Crusade last night, that there is

49

no good order presentation of this show.

50

Like, there is no agreed upon,

this is the way to watch Crusade.

51

Xhafer: Yeah.

52

Laura: So I'm wondering, does that

concept, like, Sort of apply in the, like,

53

you know, there's not going to be a good

perception of Crusade because there's

54

no right way to watch the damn thing.

55

Xhafer: in other things, bleeding

over into other things, I have, I

56

have just started listening to a

podcast Called God, what was it?

57

I'd like to stop watching fight club

and it's comedian Jacob Wysocki who's

58

part of the dropout crew and he watches

fight club for 72 hours straight and

59

Watches it with different people every

time he like lined up a bunch of people

60

who and like records episode of the

podcast as this Is going and it's like

61

wanted to descent into madness, right?

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But also it's like people experiencing

him at different times of this

63

process also watching the same

thing over and over and over again.

64

And I thought, man, if

I was like a sadist,

65

Laura: I see where this is going.

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Xhafer: I think it'd be interesting to

do like four or five crusade rewatches in

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a row in all of these different orders.

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See if anything makes it make

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Laura: And record your

own descent into madness.

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Xhafer: See, and this is

why we're not doing that.

71

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

72

That's a psychological experiment.

73

Yeah, no, so for uh, psychological

experiments these days, you have to

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pass, like, a, a review board before

you can do your experiment to make

75

sure that it's not, like, harmful.

76

Not sure that one's gonna pass, Ja'far.

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Xhafer: I don't think that one would pass.

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No, I don't think any, any accredited

board would in their right mind, allow

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someone to do that to themselves.

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Laura: Oh, so,

81

Xhafer: See if a rat survives

at first and then maybe we

82

can move on to human testing.

83

Laura: Yeah.

84

No fight club.

85

That's an interesting one to choose.

86

I think I've watched the movie

maybe once I did read the book.

87

But I don't remember there being

like a lot of significant difference

88

between the book and the movie.

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Xhafer: I have not read the book.

90

Laura: It's, I mean, it's whatever.

91

Xhafer: I have not read

any Chuck Palahniuk.

92

Laura: Pelliniac?

93

Uh, Yeah.

94

I'm not sure how you say it.

95

I've read a

96

Xhafer: I, I'm, I'm

pulling it from the ether.

97

I don't even know how it's spelled.

98

I've not read any of his work because

everyone I know that was really into his

99

Laura: Mm hmm.

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Xhafer: You know how sometimes someone

tells you their favorite book and you can

101

get an idea of what kind of person they

102

Laura: Yeah.

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Uh Huh.

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Ayn Rand.

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Xhafer: Yeah, anyone who's favorite

book was Chuck whatever, P whatever.

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It was not someone I

was interested in being.

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Laura: Yeah, I think a lot of

people totally missed the point.

108

We're gonna call him Chuckie P.

109

Of Chuckie P's work, like, I think a lot

of people who, like, really loved Fight

110

Club, it also just, like, went right over.

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Xhafer: They didn't

catch that it was satire.

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Laura: Yeah, and that

actually, like, he's bad.

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Xhafer: Like, people who unironically

love the Starship Troopers movie

114

without realizing that it's anti war

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Laura: Uh huh.

116

Xhafer: Yeah.

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Or people who are really into Warhammer

40k without realizing that it's a

118

critique of how terrible fascism is.

119

Laura: Yeah.

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Yeah.

121

Exactly.

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Xhafer: Yeah.

123

Laura: I don't know what perception

you would get of somebody

124

who's like a fan of Crusade.

125

Cause I don't know that

that person exists.

126

I don't know that I've ever heard someone

be like, man, that show was robbed.

127

Yeah,

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Xhafer: I mean, I think anyone

who feels this show was robbed is

129

dreaming of better Babble on five.

130

You know, coming into its

own and getting a chance.

131

A lot of it's, I think it's a lot

of the same stuff with the people

132

who are really into Firefly,

133

Laura: yeah.

134

Xhafer: where it's all like, you don't

necessarily miss what Firefly was,

135

you miss what Firefly could have been.

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And it's a lot easier for a show to

be great when it only exists in your

137

mind than it is when it actually is

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Laura: Right.

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Right.

140

That show also was only

like 13 episodes, wasn't it?

141

That made it out into the world.

142

Xhafer: Ah, I think it's even less.

143

I think it was like eight.

144

I

145

Laura: Yeah, it wasn't it.

146

It

147

Xhafer: don't remember.

148

It was one a lot.

149

Yeah.

150

I mean, it got done dirty.

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But also, you know.

152

scumbag,

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Laura: Yeah.

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I mean, I, now that we know what

we know about this creator, I'm

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like, I can't, I don't know, like,

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Xhafer: Yeah,

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Laura: yeah, it's rough.

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Don't have

159

Xhafer: yeah.

160

yeah.

161

A bunch of stuff just came

out about Neil Gaiman.

162

Like, more stuff.

163

Laura: And uh, some, someone in

one of our FOD communities had some

164

personal things to say about that,

that they, they were affected by.

165

So I was like, well, I give it credence

because someone I actually know uh,

166

Xhafer: I was unaware of

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Laura: has a informed opinion.

168

So.

169

Xhafer: yeah.

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I mean, I will always side,

especially before things are settled.

171

I think it is proper to, you know, if

someone is a victim, you believe them.

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until proven otherwise,

but it's at the same time.

173

It's just like, man, it's

just don't have heroes.

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You're a hundred percent right.

175

Like, or at the very

least don't meet them.

176

And I think that was a lot

easier in the pre internet age.

177

I don't think anything

with celebrity has changed.

178

Um, since the era of, you know,

Oh, don't meet your heroes.

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You'll hate it.

180

You know, 30 years ago, 40

years ago, you'd meet your

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hero and they were scumbag.

182

And now in the age of everyone

being able to talk to everyone,

183

they were always all scumbags.

184

It's almost like celebrity is a

terrible thing to foist upon someone.

185

Not to victimize people who are shitbags

and who make victims of other people.

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But it's not something that humans can

deal with particularly well, clearly

187

given how many, I mean, Dave Groll,

all that stuff just dropped too.

188

Um, it's just like, there is no such

thing as a, a good famous person.

189

Laura: Yeah.

190

It's, it's sort of like the parallel

we're seeing with law enforcement

191

is that people just weren't looking

because they couldn't look and now we

192

can all see each other all the time if

we want and uh, you're not behaving.

193

Xhafer: Yeah.

194

Is it now, is it that power corrupts?

195

Is it that people who.

196

Want, who are able to achieve

these things, have to have a set of

197

morals that allows them to do that.

198

So they're already shitty people

before they become famous?

199

Is it both?

200

I'm sure, I'm sure for some people it's

one and for some people it's the other.

201

you

202

Laura: There's, like, a

psychology paper there.

203

If I can just apply it to an accounting

setting, maybe I have my first year paper.

204

Xhafer: right.

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Some forensic accounting

on how terrible people are.

206

I believe in you.

207

Laura: Well, what I don't

believe in is this show.

208

I hate to say it.

209

Xhafer: The well of this show

is running on for forever.

210

You know, this is tied on IMDb

for the worst episode of the

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Laura: is it really?

212

Which one is it tied with?

213

I'm very

214

Xhafer: The next one we're watching.

215

Laura: no, we didn't feel good

about the last one we watched.

216

Xhafer: We're so close, Laura.

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We're so close.

218

There's two.

219

This is this one.

220

There's one more.

221

That

222

Laura: do you think JMS put them

in this order in his preferred

223

order because he was hoping people

would give up before they got here?

224

Xhafer: might be the only thing

about this viewing order that makes

225

Laura: Serious question, yeah.

226

Yeah, oh my.

227

Yeah, there was so much potential.

228

I remember at the end of our last episode,

I was like, ooh, Psycorps guy coming back.

229

We're gonna get some more telepath stuff.

230

What a letdown.

231

Xhafer: I,

232

I really have to wonder if what continuity

errors, this particular viewing error

233

order could have actually resolved,

234

Laura: Yeah, I don't

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Xhafer: like, it just feels like

it's making things worse constantly.

236

Laura: Yeah.

237

Was there a big error in this one?

238

Xhafer: Um, no,

239

Laura: that were like, oh, oh

240

Xhafer: one because that we had a

flashback to this episode, like 10

241

episodes ago for the next one, cause

it's them going to Babylon five to

242

meet with the drossy ambassador.

243

Laura: yes, yes, yes.

244

Hmm.

245

Hmm.

246

Xhafer: don't know.

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Laura: Okie dokie.

248

Well, We open on a Psycorps

shuttle coming in on Excalibur.

249

And uh, that's kind of exciting.

250

Like whenever Babylon 5 would open

with Psycorps, it's like, Oh, this

251

is going to be a good episode.

252

Xhafer: Yeah.

253

Laura: maybe that ramp up

is what the big letdown is.

254

I don't know.

255

Xhafer: yeah, we see the Cycor branded

shuttle, but learned that this is

256

actually the Bureau of telepathic.

257

Investigation,

258

the BTI.

259

So it is separate.

260

Psycorps was disbanded by the Senate

261

Laura: Right.

262

Xhafer: and they just kept the

logo, but changed the background.

263

Laura: Yeah.

264

Like, we're not going to repaint

all these ships, like, come

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Xhafer: It's so much work, right?

266

Everyone's already got the pins.

267

Just, you know, send everyone

some tin snips and have them cut

268

off the back and we'll be fine.

269

Laura: Yeah.

270

Matheson fills us in, and Gideon as

well, on what's, what's the deal.

271

So he has to be inspected every

so often, and I guess his last

272

inspection was six months ago.

273

Um, but all free telepaths have to submit

to an inquisitor kind of situation.

274

Mm hmm.

275

To make sure they're

not breaking the rules.

276

They get deep scanned to make sure

they haven't been scanning others.

277

Xhafer: We have heard nothing but terrible

things about how a deep scan works.

278

Laura: Mm hmm.

279

Xhafer: One time we've seen another

telepath get deep scanned in

280

this show, it was one of the most

traumatic experiences directly.

281

Compared to rape like it is terrible

and I don't want to say that like

282

I'm not trying to comment on any of

the characters here because I don't

283

think this is a difference of the

characters between Talia and Matheson.

284

I don't think Matheson is just

so much more resilient than Talia

285

or something, but it's like.

286

So not a thing in this episode

287

Laura: Yeah.

288

He's really stoic about it.

289

Yeah.

290

Xhafer: Yeah.

291

And it's just like, he's not,

he's not pleased about it.

292

And he looks like messed up afterwards.

293

You know, he's not happy about it,

but he's also not, it's not the same.

294

Laura: Yeah.

295

Xhafer: And I don't know

if that's continuity.

296

Or if it's not as bad of a deep scan,

if like, maybe because like besters

297

over here running around with his

P12 ass, that deep scan hurts more

298

because he's a more powerful telepath.

299

And if they had like a P6

running around doing this

300

stuff, I don't, I don't know if that's

how it works, but I am now making excuses

301

for a show that could have had a line that

explained it, and that's one of my rules.

302

Laura: Yeah.

303

Yeah.

304

You could believe that Bester

is not like lubing that up or

305

whatever to make it easier.

306

But

307

still.

308

Xhafer: Laura.

309

Oh, Oh, Oh.

310

Laura: We can cut that if we need to.

311

Ja'far's making a very bad face.

312

Xhafer: It's,

313

I'll put it in Aaron's hands.

314

Um, yeah, so, uh, this, the

guy coming to do this is Mr.

315

Jones,

316

Laura: They're all Mr.

317

Jones.

318

Xhafer: Yeah.

319

Laura: They have anonymity

to protect them a little bit.

320

Xhafer: Yeah.

321

Laura: Don't love that.

322

Xhafer: that's a choice.

323

I get it, but at the

same time it's just like,

324

Laura: I

325

Xhafer: what purpose does this serve

besides being lazy about writing?

326

I

327

Laura: Don't feel good about it.

328

But we cut to Galen bringing his Himalayan

salt lamp to the, to the meeting.

329

And

330

Xhafer: called it a mood rock.

331

Laura: It reminded me of

the egg thing that Dr.

332

Franklin gave the very sick

child early on in Babylon 5.

333

Xhafer: Wouldn't it be funny if that

was a Technomage device the whole

334

Laura: Yeah, what'd he call it?

335

He called it like industrial goo or

something, just like a byproduct.

336

But yeah, this, this one knows the

location of the well of forever.

337

Yeah,

338

Xhafer: projection up of the

worst butt plug ever designed.

339

It's actually a hyperspace

map to hyperspace Stonehenge.

340

Laura: He wants to go there.

341

He thinks there could be some

sort of lead or something.

342

It's sort of

343

Xhafer: There's a, there's a thing there.

344

It's a place of power.

345

There might be a thing

346

Laura: Yeah, I was way more

distracted by Darina butting in

347

and saying that her people were not

comfortable with a variety, a list

348

of things, and that included cliffs.

349

And we just saw her.

350

Scaling a cliff in the last episode

where her people were on top of it.

351

Xhafer: Yeah,

352

Laura: Like, okay.

353

Xhafer: the, the, the Lost Tribe,

their word, didn't get that memo.

354

Laura: I guess

355

Xhafer: Yeah, there's some babble

about what a bad idea this is

356

uh, but Galen can't go himself.

357

He needs the Excaliburs.

358

Engines, I'm guessing, something.

359

It wasn't, it wasn't particularly clear.

360

They said the words, listener, they

said, they said words that were

361

in English and should make sense,

but it didn't really make sense.

362

It's like.

363

Galen ship can navigate there, but it

can't traverse the gravity wells, despite

364

his ship being faster and more powerful

than most other ships, despite its size.

365

And it's just

366

Laura: There was a lot of talk about like,

Oh, we want to find out more about Galen's

367

really magic ship, but it's like, okay.

368

So he needed you guys.

369

Why?

370

Like they, they said something

about, yes, that my ship's not strong

371

enough to fight the gravity waves

or whatever, but it's like, okay.

372

Okay, so is it magic or not?

373

Yeah, they

374

Xhafer: it's, it's for plot.

375

Laura: they argue whether or not

they should trust the magic rock, and

376

ultimately decide like, okay, we'll

trust Galen and, and do this thing.

377

Xhafer: Yeah.

378

He says, others have found it

but never returned to theme.

379

Laura: Yeah, okay.

380

Xhafer: Yo, like, how's that possible?

381

Knowing, knowing what it is at the end

of the episode, that's just a lie, right?

382

Laura: Yeah,

383

Xhafer: Like, people aren't

going there to bury themselves.

384

So,

385

Laura: yeah, and how would you know if

they had found it if they never returned?

386

Xhafer: yeah.

387

Laura: being.

388

a cryptic douche.

389

Xhafer: Yeah.

390

This theme, man.

391

Only one more episode of this theme.

392

I take back everything bad I ever said

about season 5, Babylon 5's theme.

393

Laura: it's not this.

394

Xhafer: It's

395

Laura: There's at least some charm there.

396

Xhafer: Yeah.

397

Laura: Galen performs his navigational

merge to merge the control of

398

his ship with the Excalibur.

399

So he is able to control

Excalibur from his own ship.

400

and Gideon and Matheson talk a little

bit about, hey, maybe we can figure out

401

some more stuff about his technology

just by being hooked up, you know, keep,

402

keep the scans open, that kind of thing.

403

Xhafer: Yeah, do some plotting.

404

Laura: Yeah.

405

Darina plays poker with Gideon.

406

Uh, Ja'far, did you

notice more weird cards?

407

Xhafer: More weird cards.

408

Sure did.

409

At least these are like, this

is a standard deck of playing

410

cards, but they're weird shaped.

411

Love it.

412

Laura: hmm.

413

Xhafer: I recently started

playing uh, Boletro.

414

Which is a solitaire poker game,

415

Laura: Oh, okay.

416

Xhafer: and I want more

weird shaped cards than that.

417

I would love a mod that makes them weird

shaped cards from various sci fi games.

418

It'd fit in with the game so

419

Laura: Yeah.

420

Hell yeah, let's do it.

421

she expresses that she mistrusts

Galen's premise a little bit.

422

She doesn't think that

He's being totally honest.

423

Xhafer: Yeah.

424

Laura: And she cheats at cards.

425

They have a

426

Xhafer: Shichi's so good at cards.

427

Laura: Hehehehe.

428

Well, rogue.

429

Xhafer: Yeah.

430

He's like, I just threw out that card.

431

Fuck you.

432

And checks the pile and

it's different cards.

433

It's so good.

434

Laura: Yeah, she does

ask about Matheson too.

435

She's a little worried about Mr.

436

Jones as well.

437

Xhafer: Yeah.

438

Laura: perceptive.

439

Xhafer: Yeah Mr.

440

Jones explains why Matheson is under

more scrutiny since he's one of the

441

first telepaths to actually have a

chance of being a queer military person.

442

And we know that that is a

common dream denied to telepaths,

443

Laura: Mm hmm.

444

Xhafer: In the previous world.

445

We, we've encountered a number of

people who, a number of telepaths who

446

were doing their thing because they

weren't allowed to be queer military.

447

Laura: hmm.

448

Hey, do we know if they know

about the thing that the Lady of

449

the Bondwater forgave him for?

450

Xhafer: If he's getting

deep scanned like this they

451

Laura: they know, right?

452

Xhafer: yeah,

453

Laura: I would think that's a good reason

to be extra suspicious of Matheson, too.

454

I don't

455

Xhafer: a good

456

call

457

Laura: How does

458

Xhafer: Well, they might not care.

459

Laura: like, because Sycor's gone.

460

I don't know.

461

It would have been nice if

that came up, is all I'm

462

Xhafer: he technically saved

a bunch of telepaths from

463

getting killed from a terrorist

464

attack Like if you look at it from a

he knew perspective and you weren't

465

mad at him for not telling psych

or He was piloting a shuttle with

466

a bunch of people out of there.

467

Laura: Yeah.

468

I don't know.

469

Well, it would have been nice if

that had been mentioned at all,

470

or alluded to, or something.

471

Xhafer: yeah,

472

Laura: Or like, he's like,

worried about keeping that secret.

473

I don't know.

474

Xhafer: yeah He's Like, hey, you've

done some passive emotional scans

475

and done these things, so that's

a no no, you're gonna get fired

476

now.

477

Laura: and he found out about the well

of forever, which is annoying, like he's

478

not supposed to get into the duty related

information, but he says, well, I'm here

479

and I'm worried about my own safety.

480

So it's fine.

481

Xhafer: Yeah, well, they

shouldn't take him on this fuckin

482

Laura: Yeah, I think it should have

been like, well, we got to wait till Mr.

483

Jones disembarks before we

go to the well of forever

484

like

485

Xhafer: Or tell Mr.

486

Jones to fuck off for two days.

487

You're on the most important

mission in human history.

488

Laura: Like, I don't know.

489

Um, but yeah, he likes

to threaten Mathison here.

490

Galen goes to see Darina and he

remarks that her quarters are smaller.

491

Xhafer: Well, it's not that they're

smaller, it's that she only shops

492

in the children's section of IKEA,

493

so all of her furniture is

494

Laura: Gotcha, gotcha.

495

Xhafer: Yeah.

496

Laura: But she just is straight up.

497

She's like, tell me why you won't tell

us what the Well of Forever really is.

498

And of course, he's not able to.

499

Xhafer: Yeah.

500

He doesn't they talk big, serious.

501

He's like, you know, what

question unlocks your heart?

502

He says, why she says,

because she's curious.

503

And it turns into this giant variation

of who's on first, that takes up the

504

rest of the episode and that's it.

505

So on a scale of one to

four main guns firing.

506

Uh, How'd you feel about this one?

507

God, I would, I would be so proud

of the bravery of a show to do that.

508

To literally just do a 30

minute vaudeville bit here

509

at this point of the episode.

510

Can you imagine?

511

Laura: cares, obviously, at this

point in filming or writing.

512

So like, why not just make it a big bit?

513

Let's do a whole bit.

514

Xhafer: live in the space, man.

515

Just enjoy it.

516

Chew the scenery.

517

Laura: So,

518

Xhafer: Matheson had his shitty

time during his exam, and they

519

find space jellyfish to commercial.

520

Laura: Scanners have picked

up these big space jellyfish.

521

I wanted a payoff here.

522

I got one.

523

When we come back from commercial

you know, Iverson is doing

524

his corporate man thing.

525

He wants to send out cams.

526

Um, Gideon's like, eh.

527

These things are barely sentient and

they're attracted to bright, shiny stuff.

528

So turn off the lights, turn off the

engines, let's just float through.

529

But one of the jellyfish, like hyperspace

jellyfish, this is not even just like

530

space jellyfish, like grabs a hold

of the ship and decides to hump it.

531

Xhafer: Yeah, it's something it's like.

532

Man, this is way different than

in Star Trek where they turn

533

into a space station to help you.

534

Laura: I was like, didn't this

happen in an episode of Voyager

535

or something kind of like it?

536

I feel like there was some space

thing that was using Voyager to mate.

537

I forget.

538

I don't know.

539

If you remember it,

throw it in the discord.

540

Xhafer: that sounds right.

541

I think that was an episode of something.

542

Laura: It was funny because Owen

was actually sitting with us when

543

we watched this crusade and yeah.

544

I had a good chuckle.

545

They kept it vague enough that I didn't

have to explain anything to my son.

546

So I appreciate that.

547

Xhafer: Yeah, don't want to have that talk

548

yet.

549

Laura: Yeah.

550

Thanks crusade.

551

Like,

552

Xhafer: Gideon and Galen,

553

Laura: expresses doubt

about this whole course.

554

He's like, what the fuck, man?

555

You just let, let my

ship get like violated.

556

but Darina defends Galen as

he's eardropping through his

557

AirPods on the whole thing.

558

Xhafer: Go on for a while.

559

This is like five scenes.

560

It's like four or five minutes of Gideon

being pissed at Galen about taking

561

control of the ship without asking

when he tells him it's time to turn

562

Laura: yeah, and uh, Galen's like,

actually, no, I'm not going to do that.

563

Xhafer: it's just go fuck yourself.

564

Uh, It is, this is, this

is so fucking pointless.

565

This is such a waste of time in this

566

Laura: Yeah, they like, get to the

coordinates, but there's nothing

567

there, and Galen's like, well, it's

probably drifted a little bit, so I'm

568

just gonna look around for a while.

569

Xhafer: Yeah.

570

Laura: Thanks.

571

Xhafer: Like what happens here has no

impact on the rest of this episode because

572

Gideon is pissed about the thing, right?

573

But he's more pissed later about it.

574

Not him not being honest about

what it was in the first place.

575

Laura: hmm.

576

Xhafer: And that completely

overrides his being pissed about

577

taking control of the ship.

578

Laura: Yeah.

579

Xhafer: he could just be pissed

about him not being honest

580

with him in the first place.

581

And that is more emotionally

resonating for the character.

582

Laura: And basically at the end also

he's like, Well, you're so valuable,

583

I'm gonna let it pass this time.

584

And it's like, well, okay, then

why, why are you even Pissed.

585

Like, I don't, I don't get it.

586

Um, Gideon does say like, you know,

after this, the way you've broken

587

my trust, you're going to be alone.

588

And Galen's like, well, not for the

first time and pouts away dramatically.

589

And I'm just like, Oh, I don't need to

see two pouty boys being pouty at each

590

other for five minutes or whatever.

591

Like you said.

592

Xhafer: Uh, Mr.

593

Jones talks to Gideon about

how Madison's best isn't good

594

enough and he calls bullshit!

595

Laura: Yeah.

596

And again, like Jones doesn't

feel that threatening.

597

Like he's no bester.

598

I'm just like, okay,

this is, I don't know.

599

Xhafer: Gideon throws in the towel on

trying to regain control of the ship.

600

Madison regrets that his psi abilities

Make him unable to go into hyperspace

601

because the shielding isn't there.

602

That would prevent it from

affecting his mind, which means

603

he's going to accidentally read

everyone when he shouldn't.

604

So he can't go into hyperspace alone

either because that's dangerous.

605

So he just never gets to

experience the thing, it seems.

606

Laura: this was a weird

thing to shoehorn in there.

607

Xhafer: We already know that

hyperspace enhances Psy.

608

We know he's not supposed

to scan people, right?

609

And he can't go alone, that makes sense.

610

Now, we break two of these

three rules in 15 minutes.

611

What's the f ugh.

612

This entire B plot could be

removed from this episode.

613

Laura: Yeah.

614

Xhafer: And it would change nothing.

615

Laura: And it should have been almost two

separate episodes because then you could

616

maybe make the telepaths more interesting.

617

And I don't know, the Well of Forever

is just not interesting at all to me.

618

Xhafer: It's a B plot.

619

It's a B plot disguised as an A plot.

620

Laura: It's a, it's a B plot wearing

A plot shoes and it doesn't fit them.

621

Xhafer: Yeah.

622

Like if this were an episode

of Babylon five, the A plot and

623

the B plot would be reversed.

624

It would be a handful of people

from the department of psionic

625

investigation or whatever's showing up.

626

They would be more of

a problem on the ship.

627

The fact that they were in hyperspace

so long would amplify their psychic

628

abilities like they talk about.

629

And that would be the problem.

630

And this stuff with Gideon, keeping

them in hyperspace would be the B plot.

631

Laura: Yeah.

632

Xhafer: And way less

attention will be paid to it.

633

Rightfully so.

634

Laura: I was, I did not have a good time.

635

Uh,

636

Xhafer: ending was fine with the, with

the Gideon plot or the Galen plot,

637

but fucking yeah, God, why are they,

why'd they make their name so similar?

638

Laura: was thinking the same thing,

writing notes for this episode.

639

I was like, fuck this.

640

Like, what is your problem?

641

JMS that like he had his Sheridan and

Sinclair that was hard in Babylon five.

642

And now we've got Gideon and Galen.

643

I think we have Gideon and Galen

cause he did not give a shit.

644

Xhafer: Yeah.

645

Laura: I think that's where

we're at, but yeah, so,

646

Xhafer: Tweet at us, Joe, tell us why

you did this thing, why you did this

647

terrible, terrible thing to us, to

podcasters 20 years after the show aired.

648

Why?

649

Laura: So we've got something

on scanners, too commercial.

650

It's the well of forever.

651

We find out it has an atmosphere

bubble when we get back and

652

Galen has already disappeared.

653

He's gonzo.

654

Xhafer: it takes so much time to get

to that docking bay where his ship is,

655

his ship is wired into the Excalibur

656

already.

657

They talk about how they can't separate

it and all this stuff and somehow in like

658

five seconds, he goes from the bridge.

659

To the back of the ship where the

docking bay is, he like, takes the

660

mile, two mile tram, disconnects his

661

ship,

662

Laura: he didn't take the tram.

663

Jair.

664

He's techno mage.

665

He's got like mini

transporter or something.

666

Like

667

Xhafer: I'm sure, it's just,

668

Laura: He only rides the tram when he's

wanting to run into somebody on purpose.

669

Xhafer: yeah,

670

Laura: Mm-Hmm.

671

yeah.

672

Gideon goes after him and Ierson tries

to do his whole, I'm coming to thing

673

and gets ordered to be tossed in the

Bri if he tries to leave the bridge.

674

Xhafer: Galen lands on the most

well lit industrial club in history,

675

Laura: Yeah.

676

Xhafer: the fog machines here are

really working overtime, as Max

677

convinces Matheson to do a little

surface scanning to just, you know,

678

let them know what's going on down

there, just, just helping them out

679

and is salivating at the

natural resources of this place.

680

And it's like, bro, this all has

to be easier to get somewhere else.

681

Literally no other ship can get here.

682

You know,

683

Laura: Yeah.

684

Xhafer: And it's hyperspace.

685

So shit moves like, it's not

even like you can just take the

686

coordinates and send it back to IPX.

687

So they can haul this somewhere

688

Laura: Yeah.

689

Which is what he does try

to do ultimately, but it's

690

like, no, no, it's not

691

Xhafer: We know that's

not how hyperspace works.

692

It's just like, you're

telling me you haven't found a

693

planet made out of solid gold

694

Laura: Yeah.

695

Xhafer: Should exist.

696

Just it's the universe is infinite.

697

You'll fucking find it.

698

Eventually.

699

Laura: is like the British

museum personified.

700

Like he wants this dead people shit.

701

Like gotta have it.

702

Xhafer: Gots to have all this dead people.

703

Shit.

704

Laura: Yeah.

705

Doreen is not fooled though.

706

She's like, see all the gravestones

This is like people's burial tombs,

707

you know, this is great civilizations

or civilization that has died here.

708

Like, let me introduce you to booby traps.

709

Gideon confronts Galen.

710

Who tells him about Isabel, who we sort

of met, but she was, I couldn't care less.

711

He monologues with terrible

CGI in the background.

712

That was very distracting for me.

713

And for some reason she spent

her life searching for the well.

714

So when she died, he had to

do it, put her to rest there.

715

Xhafer: Yeah,

716

Laura: That's it.

717

That's the only reason we're here.

718

We're not actually here for

like, maybe there's some

719

technology here that's useful.

720

Xhafer: they don't even check.

721

Laura: They don't even

722

Xhafer: Why would you?

723

Is that even a line of

lip service paid to?

724

Well, we scan the surface and there

doesn't appear to be any technology

725

that could be useful to us.

726

Laura: Why would we do that, Ja'far?

727

Like,

728

Xhafer: That would imply that you cared.

729

Laura: yeah.

730

Xhafer: Max is upset when they

turn the ship around to go

731

home, but nobody gives a fuck.

732

Gideon gets Doreena to scare Mr.

733

Jones and it works, and

Gideon saves Matheson from Mr.

734

Jones with Doreena's assistance.

735

Laura: I'm not sure why this works.

736

Xhafer: Yeah, I don't.

737

It was like she was shouting

into his mind, right?

738

Laura: but

739

Xhafer: That's like the

thing that you can't help.

740

They say that all the time.

741

Laura: so he's going to

blackmail him with that.

742

How, like, I don't get it.

743

Xhafer: Yeah, but

744

Laura: Hmm.

745

Xhafer: he uh, besides saving

Matheson's job, he also gets his

746

old Psycorp Eva suit, which I guess

does have the psychic shielding,

747

so he can go experience Ma I It's, it's

Psycorp labeled, so I would assume so.

748

Laura: Oh, okay.

749

Xhafer: suit itself has all

the Psycorps symbols on it.

750

Laura: Oh, I thought he was

just sending him out there.

751

Just like, go do it anyway, bro.

752

Like.

753

It's all

754

Xhafer: well, he, that's

what he should do.

755

Just tether yourself and you

could just be out there alone.

756

It's fine.

757

Laura: Yeah,

758

Xhafer: Whatever.

759

Laura: is weird.

760

I don't, I don't know.

761

I, I didn't enjoy any of it.

762

So,

763

Xhafer: Yeah.

764

Laura: uh, Yeah, so we're going

to go, Galen's going to go talk

765

to Gideon in the gym, like bros.

766

Xhafer: Yep.

767

Just bros being bros.

768

They work their shit out

without having to box about it.

769

So I guess that's a blessing.

770

Laura: I don't know.

771

I might've had a chuckle at that at least.

772

Gideon's just like on the exercise

bike or the elliptical or whatever.

773

And

774

okay.

775

Um, Yeah, Gideon tells him that Galen's

importance to the mission weighs out

776

this event and Galen promises, I'm

never going to betray your trust again.

777

And I'm

778

like, okay, well, don't understand

why you did any of this.

779

But,

780

Xhafer: Yeah.

781

Laura: Darina confronts Galen

about the answers he had promised.

782

he tells her that Eilersen got his

answer, which is that there is a

783

place that he cannot have, a thing

that he cannot have in this universe.

784

Gideon didn't hear his

answer on the surface.

785

Matheson couldn't get his answer

because he didn't go to the surface.

786

And he answers Darina's question

by addressing her eavesdropping.

787

So why couldn't Matheson get an answer?

788

Because Eilerson didn't go to

the surface and got an answer.

789

Darina didn't go to the

surface and got an answer.

790

But Matheson didn't go,

so he doesn't get one.

791

Xhafer: Nope.

792

Laura: The space block isn't his answer?

793

I don't know.

794

I'm just like

795

Xhafer: I would think the

spacewalk would be his answer.

796

Laura: But Galen's gonna have to wait a

little longer for his answer to credits.

797

Xhafer: Yeah.

798

Laura: Okay.

799

Xhafer: Ugh.

800

Okay.

801

We did it.

802

We got through the episode.

803

Okay.

804

Well.

805

I don't even want to bother rating this

806

Laura: I don't know why I can't

muster a care about these.

807

Like, they've

808

Xhafer: These last couple

episodes have been so bad.

809

Laura: they're still like apocalypse

box for me to have fun with.

810

Like,

811

Xhafer: They are not fun episodes.

812

Not even bad fun.

813

Laura: There's not something totally

ridiculous out there that I can

814

just be like, ha ha, I love it.

815

Xhafer: Where's my fucking appearances

and deceits and my guy fucking, you

816

know, Critiquing the uniforms because

that's the important thing to him,

817

Laura: He was pretty great.

818

Xhafer: Where's my Mimbari

Rangers who are like, dealing

819

under the table for no reason at

820

Laura: Yeah.

821

Xhafer: You know, where's my

Franklin or Lockley having a laugh?

822

Like,

823

even my Lady of the Bong Water.

824

None of it.

825

Just none of it.

826

Fucking,

827

Laura: we got weird shaped playing

cards and that was like our highlight.

828

Xhafer: weird shaped playing cards

does not an entertaining episode

829

Laura: Right.

830

It can't carry the whole show.

831

Like you gotta have

something else in there.

832

Xhafer: They weren't even that weird,

they just had like a little side cut out.

833

Laura: It's true.

834

Xhafer: Whatever we gave the

last one, no guns, no guns again.

835

Laura: no guns times two.

836

Xhafer: Will it happen a third time?

837

We'll find out when we watch the rules

of the game, the Excalibur goes to

838

Babylon 5 so that Gideon can meet with

an ambassador for permission to go to

839

a planet that might have technology to

help Earth, but the ambassador refuses

840

and Gideon is not going to accept it.

841

And Ellerson runs into his ex wife,

who is in trouble with a loan shark.

842

When he pays him off, he

feels like she owes him more.

843

Amph goes to great lengths to collect.

844

Laura: Amps.

845

Xhafer: Amph.

846

It's, it's period, capital A N F.

847

Laura: Huh.

848

Xhafer: This is the worst

episode description.

849

Laura: it's so long, like,

850

Xhafer: Every other one's been like 10

words and this is a fucking paragraph.

851

Laura: There's a lot of disbelief

I will suspend for sci fi.

852

Like, there's a lot of things I will

ignore and overlook and go ahead and

853

say, yeah, okay, I will not accept

that someone married Max Eilerson.

854

At any point.

855

Was she drunk?

856

Jesus.

857

Ugh.

858

Okay.

859

Well, we got one more.

860

We're gonna make

861

Xhafer: We got one more.

862

Hopefully we'll have a a

guest for this last one.

863

Maybe that will cheer us up a little

864

Laura: Oh, it always does.

865

Xhafer: I haven't gotten a confirmation

on the recording schedule yet, so I

866

don't wanna get anyone's hopes up.

867

But Ryan from Yum Yum.

868

Should be joining us for the next

869

Laura: I would love that.

870

I feel like he's got some shade he

can throw at Max Eilerson real hard.

871

Xhafer: Oh, for sure.

872

Uh I guess we've got that to look

forward to at the very least, even

873

if it's a bad episode, at least we'll

get to spend an hour hanging with a

874

Laura: Yes, exactly.

875

Xhafer: So with all that said, we

should probably say some thank yous

876

to anyone who's made it this far.

877

Laura: If you did, we

878

Xhafer: for we do.

879

Jeremy Siegel.

880

We love you.

881

Thank you so much for our theme music.

882

We really appreciate the hell out of it.

883

You can find more of Jeremy's

work at jeremyseagle42.

884

bandcamp.

885

com and on streaming

services as Nuclear Jaguar.

886

Laura: And thank you to angry

duck time machine on Instagram

887

for our podcast artwork.

888

Xhafer: We love you,

Angry Duck Time Machine.

889

And we love you, Aaron.

890

Thanks so much for editing the podcast.

891

Really appreciate the hell out of

892

Laura: Yeah.

893

If, if anything, there's one

person who made it to the end of

894

this Jaffer and it's Aaron, so

895

he's really doing the work, putting it in.

896

Xhafer: Yep.

897

Laura: And thanks listener for being here.

898

Sorry that, uh, we didn't have

some more entertaining material

899

to work with on this one.

900

Gosh,

901

Xhafer: I wish it was just

902

worse.

903

Like if it was, if it was just

bad and not just boring, I'd be

904

having a lot more fun with it.

905

Laura: Yeah, even

906

Xhafer: But here we are.

907

Laura: who is like a pretty generous, even

keel, not hyperbolic person when this one

908

was over was like, wow, that was boring.

909

Xhafer: It's rough.

910

Well, we'll see you next week, internet.

911

Laura: bye.