The transgender journey of a parent (and why Josephine Hughes made a podcast about it)

Episode 207 • 17th November 2022 • The Courageous CEO • Janet Murray

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Have you ever been hit with unexpected news, something that felt life changing and something you definitely didn't feel ready for? Well, that's exactly what happened to Josephine Hughes twice when two of her three children came out as transgender. And of course, the things that go through your head immediately are the things that most people think about with transgender people, especially transgender women.

You know, will this mean an operation? Is she going to end up having surgery? And that was the first place that my head went to. And really a sense of panic to be honest, of thinking of what would happen. One of the main things you think about as a parent is will they make a mistake almost sort of like you want to put the breaks on and you're aware that they're young and that they could be,

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you wonder if they're caught up in something that's not really true.

As she tried to navigate this unexpected change in her children's identities. But also her own and her families. Josephine found there was very little support for parents of grown up children going through a similar journey, but when she shared some of the difficult feelings she was having around being a parent of transgender children on social media, she found herself on the receiving end of criticism.

There's almost that accusation that you're being narcissistic, that you are, you're making it about you. I had to come to terms with that. I didn't know anything about transgender people, and a lot of the process for me has been realizing my own internalized, unc conscious bias, and I would even say transphobia.

Nevertheless, Josephine has found the courage to share her journey in a new podcast called

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Gloriously Unready, which is all about how to navigate change and how to deal with the surprises that life sometimes throws at you. The first series is all about how to navigate a change. More parents are having to deal with today learning.

Your child is transgender. As a parent, you're in a relationship with your children, so therefore you are gonna have feelings, perhaps difficult feelings around it, and that that's, that's because you love them and you're in a relationship with them, and parents are perfect. In this episode at the Courageous Content Podcast, you'll hear it from Josephine Hughes, a counselor who has been brave enough to turn her personal experience into content in order to support other parents like her and help them support their children and families.

So Josephine, as this is the Courageous Content Podcast, I want to share something with you and it's that

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I feel really quite nervous about this interview and I wanna do it, but I do feel nervous about it because it's quite a controversial topic. And as you'll know, I was a journalist for many, many years before I do what I do now.

I've interviewed people on all sorts. Controversial topics and I've been brave and courageous and asked the questions, but this particular topic feels a bit scary for me cuz it's quite controversial. I also know that there's a strong possibility that my own unconscious biases might come through. I might use the wrong language, or I might say something that someone might find offensive, in which case, please feel free to let me know.

And if I'm feeling nervous as the interviewer, I'm guessing you may feel nervous as the interviewee. I think the thing is, is I've made so many mistakes and getting used to it,

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and I often think it's the intention. People are always prepared to be quite understanding if the intention is there to support people and to show that you genuinely want to get it right.

And I think when you've got that intention there a lot is, is okay. When we make mistakes, I think that's the most important thing. Okay, so your new podcast comes out. Next week. Mm-hmm. , can you tell us a bit about the podcast and then we'll, we'll talk about what inspired it. Okay. So the podcast is about how my two children came out as transgender.

It was back in: 2015

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adapt as a parent. So I'm very much approaching what it's like for parents when their children come out as transgender and looking at the process that goes on inside you.

It's very much from an emotional point of view. So it's very much your personal story. Yeah. And I think myself and Josephine wanted to share something here as well, is that everything that you share, Josephine, we've chatted about this before, is in agreement with your family. Yeah. Yeah. So can you take us back to that moment?

When your first daughter came in and came out? Yeah. Check the news with you. She was 16 at the time, so just to avoid confusion, this is someone who was assigned mail at birth. So at that point I was thinking that she was a, and she was in a relationship with

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someone and I'd been aware that hadn't seen as much of her girlfriend recently.

It was just before she went to school and I said, oh, you know, I haven't seen her so much of so and so recently. I wondered if there's something happening and there was a very, very long silence. Unfortunately, it's not very often I can do this because I'm a counselor. You know, I've been trained to sit with silences and I thought there's something really important coming here, and I've, I've just mustn't say anything.

about gender identity back in: 2015

It just

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wasn't really anywhere on my radar. And so to have that come out of the blue, it was just completely shocking. I didn't know what to think. So I said the first thing that came into my head, which is that, well, you know, we'll always love you. And she said, all right, right. I'm off to school now, . And what happens then?

So she goes off school and she was then to your mind? A he. Yeah. In a relationship with a a girl. But yeah. Didn't you thought something was a bit off? Yeah. What did you do next?

I talk about this in the podcast cause I just didn't know what to do with myself. I really didn't. It was such a shock. And of course, the things that

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go through your head, Immediately are the things that most people think about with transgender people, especially transgender women. You know, will this mean an operation?

Is she going to end up having surgery? And that was the first place that my head went to and, and really a sense of panic to be honest, of thinking that that might be what would happen. And I'm someone who finds it really helpful to talk things through with people. So I really wanted to tell someone just to, it was such a big thing.

I really felt I wanted to talk to someone, but everyone was out at work. , everybody, you know, my best friend was at work. I went around to another friend's house and she was at work. Although she said to me, you should have phoned me, I would've come back. And my husband was at work, so I had to wait until my husband came home.

And I told

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him in the evening, also caught my friend that evening as well. She said, how have you felt this all day? But what I did was I did go around to my church and um, I actually prayed with someone there and it was just helpful to be able to just say, you know, that this really surprising thing that's come up for me and, and just have someone there who just listened and set prayer with me.

I love that you said, I think what all of us as parents would want to say when greeted with unexpected news is that I'd always love you, whatever it is. And then, right. I'm off to school now and I think all of us would, I guess, hope that we would say that in that circumstance, but I guess it's just so surprising.

Yeah. And I guess the question I want to ask is, you said it came out of the blue mm-hmm. , so there was

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nothing up to that point in which made you No, no. Yeah. When she was younger, I used to wonder if she might be gay, so there was sort of like some behavior that made me wonder if, if that might be the case, but certainly not transgender because as I say, it just seemed so.

Was so out of my awareness, really anything to do with people being transgender. It would never even occur to me that that might be the case. So, and no, cause some people say that they've always seen it in their child or their child has told them from an early age that they feel like a girl. But mine hadn't, mine never said anything at that point.

And was this something internally that she was struggling with? Something that she felt that she had to

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suppress? She couldn't, she couldn't share. And when I've talked to her since, what she said is that she knew, she felt different, but she couldn't put it into words. And then in the end, she found something that made her realize that she was a woman.

And she said, it's one of those moments, I think, where when it happens, there's no going back. Because it was like the penny dropped and she thought, yes, that's it. That's what explains why I feel the way I feel. And after that, it's almost like, as I say, there's no going back. That was a moment where she knew almost without a shadow of doubt, that's what she was.

And I think she sort of says it was that moment of, oh, now what do I do? Even for her, I was talking to someone the other day and they said, um,

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coming out to yourself is often one of the hardest things to do. And that was sort of like her moment of coming out to herself, but she's completely sure that that's who she is.

There's never been any question of it. She knew herself. So then it becomes a case of how do you tell people. And then your husband came home. Mm-hmm. that evening? Mm-hmm. . So did you talk to him about that straight away? Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember what he said on that particular occasion. I remember with my other daughter what happened.

Um, he's a very sort of grounded and stable man. . And so I think at that early stage it was, well, our daughter was 16, just coming up to her 17th birthday. So you think at that age, well, they're teenagers,

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they might be exploring, it might not be a thing, it might just be as almost like an exploration. And that's okay as time goes on, the thing that you get concerned about is if they want to have medication, what is the effect gonna be on their bodies?

And that's something that we had to tackle within ourselves really to think about how we felt about that. And not that we would try and stop them, but that we had to really sort of think about it, question it, and maybe question them as well about how sure they were about it. Yeah. I think as a parent, I, I hate that phrase as a parent, but I think if a child came to you and wanted to.

Have any kind of, or was thinking about any kind of

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medication or surgery that even if there was a hint that it could have a negative effect on them or there was any worry about it as a parent, I think that's always where your mind's going to go, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think this sounds very flippant in comparison.

I think I might have said this to you before, but when my daughter was born, she had a sticky out belly button. She had umbilical hernia. Mm-hmm. . And I remember being advised not to have an operation on it, but the doctor saying to me, you know, she might well turn around you when she's, later when she's older and say, I want to have this surgery.

And I can remember agonizing over this umbilical hernia because any, you know, any idea your child might have any medical treatment or any kinda anesthetic or, so all of that is just, it's just a worry, isn't it? That's your child. It's your baby, isn't it? Yeah. And you're always gonna be

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thinking about, and, and here it goes beyond the procedure itself, I'm guessing, or the medication itself.

Yeah, there's so many fears that I think you have, and in some ways we think we were lucky because the kids were older. So to a certain extent, their decisions are their decisions. I think it's for parents, perhaps they've got transgender children who are younger. It must be so hard, so hard. And obviously at the moment there's so much being said about it.

And some of the stuff that's being said is very scary and it is a very scary thing for parents. But also what isn't talked about so much is the fact that it can be really helpful to transgender children, and that's where the

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controversy really lies. But I think that's probably one of the main things you think about as a parent is will they make a mistake?

Is it a mistake? And what are we gonna do if they've, you know, almost sort of like you want to put the breaks on. And you're aware that they're young and you wonder if they're caught up in something that's not really true. And there's all those sort of fears and questions that you are asking. I think because we're seven years down the line, it's much easier now to be able to say, yeah, we're okay with what they decided to do because they haven't regretted it.

Again, I do talk about this in the podcast because this fear of them regretting it and how you can live with that is part of what you have

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to deal with. And it's been an ongoing process for me as well. And I think what happens is that you sort of go along for a while and you get used to one aspect of it and then another aspect might occur.

So you know, initially it might be. Just the fact they wanted to be known as a different name and letting go of their existing name can be hard. Cause that's the name that you thought about and you chose and you had reason for why you called them that name. And then they choose their own name and it might not be something that you chose.

Mm-hmm . We did have one conversation where, uh, I sort tried to steer them away from a particular choice. I thought, I don't even live with that. But, um, yeah, , these sorts of things we, cause usually, you know, your, your adult child is, they're just settled with the name that you gave them, whether they like it or

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not, aren't they?

You still got that little bit of about who theyre, and then they say, I'm not gonna be called that any longer. Oh, I really like that name, . You know, and there's that. And then it gets bigger as they do consider things like having medication and what that might mean for them longer. I think I remember you talking about things like having to make decisions about family photos.

So graduation photos. Yeah. Do you display those photos or your summer holiday photos? Yeah. How have you navigated things like that? The graduation photos still haven't been navigated. I'm stills at the moment. I've just got worn up cause that's the one that's in the frame. Yeah, because obviously the, my oldest daughter who came out when she was 21, her graduation photo is her as a

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Man. And it always felt a bit odd. It feels odd to put that up on the wall because it's not really who she is. And in fact it is interesting cause I've got one photo up of them when they were little boys. So I've got three boys or had three boys altogether. So I thought, and so we got the, the sort of primary school photo where this, these three little boys in a row and someone who didn't know me back then said to me, Oh, I always wondered who those little boys were and they hadn't connected that they're actually my children.

Right. Yeah. Wow. And I thought, oh, that's, that's so funny. It's just, that's the sort of weird thing that you sort of lose that connection to the past. So what we've done is, I mean, we have moved house, so a lot of the photos have gone into boxes and not come back out again. But we've just got photos

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really of, as I say, just the three little ones and my cisgender sign up at the moment.

Yeah. I sort think, oh, I don't want them to feel that I don't their up, but also don't want upset them. So I still haven't resolved that particular dilemma. Imagine there's, that's one of many, and something that I saw when you were talking there about the medication and the surgery, and I remembered, I think I might have said this to you before, but my, the very last article I think I edited for The Guardian was about a lady who was.

Quite a controversial figure. Mm-hmm. in the space, I'd say because she's campaigning for, for younger children to, to have a bit more time. Yeah. You know, to take that space and, and it was just really interesting hearing you talk about that because I know

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this lady whose name has escaped me. You might, you, it might come to your mind straight away.

Yeah. But she's had, you know, hate mail and you know, abuse for suggesting that in her case it was younger children just take the time to think it through. And so it's interesting hearing you talk about all seven years on we, we can see that was, that was the right decision for our children. Do you feel it's an individual thing?

It's difficult question to ask you really? Cause I guess how do you, but yeah. Has it changed how you see, you know, so in the past you might have looked at someone like that and said, well that sounds very sensible if, you know, to encourage children to take time and space. But actually, has your experience changed some of your views?

I think when you listen to people who are transgender, I think that changes your view of things. That's what I'm gonna say. And as Graham Norton said recently, it's really,

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it'd be really helpful to talk to and listen, actually to listen to what transgender people tell us and listen to families of transgender people.

And I read a really powerful article recently, and this is someone who's doing research and is centering transgender voices. And it was such a challenging thing to read because this was somebody who'd known, they were transgender from a very young age, and their parents had said to them, oh, let's just be patient.

Let's wait, let's wait, let's wait. And it's a very, very strong thing that they said, but I, I, you know, I'd like to include it because it, it really made me think as, as they. My parents forced a puberty on me that I didn't want. Wow. Yeah. That's a really, really powerful, it's like, I mean, that hit me in the gut really when I read it, because you think,

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you know, to listen to somebody who was very convinced about being transgender from a very young age and that, that they were being told to wait.

And, you know, there is a lot of controversy around puberty blockers. I think there's still research to be done, but there's a lot said about it that I don't think is entirely true. And yeah, it's just really interesting to hear somebody saying that that's their experience, especially for my children. I mean, there's things that you cannot reverse.

So they've got deep voices, for example. I mean, I think possibly you can have surgery, but that's, that's a big thing and you have to be able to pay for that. And so that, you know, there's things that are irreversible about puberty. And so it does make you sort of question,

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should we wait? And I think part of the journey that I've been on, and it's been really interesting talking with transgender people, and even as I've worked on the podcast and worked on launching it and talking to people, and I realized that I talked to a friend and who told me that one of her children is gay.

And because they'd supported me such a lot with my children being transgender, I reflected that support that they've given to me back to them and said, well, well how do you feel about that? Absolutely fine with it. I'm happy for them. I'm happy that they're living the life and having the relationships that they want to have.

And I went away from that and I just felt so challenged by her response because I thought, you know, 20 years ago or 30 years ago in the eighties, however long ago that was 40 years ago. Yeah. You know,

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when we first. Started talking much more about gay people. And if you've watched it's a sin, there's all that shame around the children having aids and denying that they're gay.

And I thought, oh my goodness, that's what I'm doing now with my children being transgender, rather than just accepting that they're transgender and just Yeah, you know, transgender in the same way that if our children came out gay, we'd say, well, yeah, they're gay. And that really, really spoke to me and I thought, I'm still viewing it.

This is the transphobia part. It, uh, it's something that's wrong. And now I've sort of moved to this place and just think, actually it's just different in the same way that, you know, I'm straight and other people are gay. It's just, we're all different and it's, we see it as sort of like almost something to be corrected or wrong, but it's not.

And I think

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that's what we need to get to as society is that it's not wrong. It's just a different, it's really powerful. And as you were talking, I was thinking about. Call the midwife and, and you know, some of those episodes where they'd have gay people being put through conversion therapy, which yeah, we would just think was out, well actually it's not completely gone away.

We would think that was outrageous. Yeah. Now wouldn't we, I think most people would accept that was outrageous and your friend's response would be much more of a normal response. But if you think, I guess what we've been through to, to get there and, and how long, you know, that journey's taken. I'm guessing if you went to some parts of the world, you wouldn't be met with that kind of attitude.

So I guess it's a journey that everybody's on. But yeah, people are on different stages of their journey, aren't they? And I think that's probably an important thing to

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touch on. And I remember editing that article and thinking, well, that this seems very sensible at the time. Yeah. And that would've been, I don't know, five years ago or something.

That does seem like a sensible thing. But actually, I guess the more we know and the more we listen to and the more we're opening. Say we're open to listening to, it's a journey for everyone. But it feels like at the moment, you mentioned Graham Norton, there not a week goes by where there's, you know, not some kind of controversy is the Yeah.

Um, I went into Twitter last week and people were canceling Graham Norton for something that seemed really in offensive, and she seems like a very sensible thing to say. Yeah. Um, you know, why don't we listen to transgender people and ask them what they think? Yeah. Um, but yeah, it still feels like quite a, quite a political space as well.

I think it is tough. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In fact, to say it's probably, like you said, it's grown even

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since we first talked about this. It's so much more political even now than it was a year ago. And it, you know, you see it in America as well. It's becoming such a, an issue in politics. And so then how much time passed between, so your first daughter came and shared this with you?

Yeah. The second one, second. She came out about five months later. Right. A lot of people say to me, oh, you know, had they talked about it, they one knew about the other, but it wasn't, it wasn't like that. Cause the second one who came out didn't know about the first one. Cause it was just between myself and my husband and the first daughter.

So, um, when my oldest daughter came out, say she was 21 and I think I was attuned to it basically, cuz she said something.

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Could you take us back to, to that day? Cause I can imagine you said earlier about what your husband said. I'm interested to see . You said that time. Yeah. So, um, so, so this daughter she'd, she'd actually been away and she'd been to a cosplay event and I asked her what she'd worn and she said, I wore a girls' outfit.

So I said, oh, is that something you're sort of interested in? My little aunt, I went up, you know, and she said, well actually I think I'm transgender and. Like I said on the podcast, you know, I've rehearsed the answer . I've already had , so the same again. You know, we, we love, we'll support you, whatever, we just want, you know, that.

Um, and then it was cuz she, is this something you sort of know about your counseling? Then you very sort up to speed with it, .

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So I sort of said, let get back to you on this. So I ran downstairs, said to the other one, are you right for me to tell your older sibling? And, um, he said, yeah. So I, I, I then told them about each other.

So they didn't really have any idea about the other one. It was just a coincidence that they both came out at the same time. Although my oldest, when I talked to her, it wasn't quite the same sort of process of coming to terms with it because she'd always felt like that. She just never expressed it right.

She'd always felt like that. You know, she said she knew from quite a young age and your husband, you mentioned. Yeah. His reaction the second time so came in and sat down. I said, oh, so and so's told me this.

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He laughed, and he just, yeah, just, oh, well, you know, here we goes. I, I think again, that was almost like I, I think possibly, you know, we are laughing about it, but I think possibly there's a bit, when you first find out a piece of news like this, I mean, everybody's different. I don't wanna speak for all parents, cuz I know from talking to other parents and I think as time has gone on as well and, and more parents are sort of attuned to it as well.

It's not so out of the blue, it isn't such a, And some of them, you know, I really take my heart off to some parents who don't have the sort of reactions that I had cuz I did go into this sort of almost like grieving process where you go into shock and disbelief. And I think possibly the same with truth, my husband as well.

That to a certain extent it's a bit of

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denial because it's such a big thing to take in and it takes a while for that to filter through. And in some ways he's, he's often been able to articulate what we're feeling. So there's this expression that transgender people use about their old names and they call them dead names.

And apparently the reason they call them that, I dunno if this is true not, but it's because when they were buried, it was their original names that would've been put in the gravestones. Cuz people wouldn't have acknowledged the fact that they'd been living differently. And that's why it's called a dead.

My husband said, and with apologies to any transgender people who might be listening to this, he said it does feel like the dead name is really appropriate cause it feels like they've died. That's the extent to what we felt. And that felt actually for me, I mean, wouldn't have said that to the kids, but that was how it felt.

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But what happens over time, and this is again why I'm talking about it now, is actually you realize that that's just not true. It isn't like they've died, they really haven't, because you know, my kids are exactly the same. They haven't changed at all. Okay. The puppets changed. My, one of my friends said it's, see it like a book.

It's like you've got a new cover on the book, but the contents are just the same. And that's exactly what it's like. They look different, but they themselves are exactly the same. And I guess one of the fears. Is, so we talked about the physical part of it. You know, this is your baby. Do you want them taking drugs?

Yeah, having surgery that they might not be able to reverse, but I guess the other part of it as a parent is you just don't want your child to get hurt. And

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so the idea, because I think we live in a society where it doesn't feel like the norm does it, it feels different. And then we live in a society where difference is not always, people don't always treat people, they perceive as different in the best way that is there, that fear of ridicule, fear of exclusion, all these awful things that might happen to your babies because they're different and wanting to protect them from the hurtful people out there.

Yeah, absolutely. . Yeah. And, and uh, what, what were your fears around what they might experience? Yeah, you, I mean, obviously. Bullying and being rejected by people up to and including physical attacks on them. I have to say they're both very sensible about looking after themselves. There was one occasion I was really surprised at myself actually,

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where we went out and someone said something, I'm not even sure that they were actually saying something derogatory it.

It felt like me to that, to me at the time. And I had such a strong reaction to it immediately. I mean, this mama bear came out and sort of like thes quite frightened, you know? Cause this sort of like complete sort of parental protection, you're not gonna hurt my child. Type of reaction came out of me.

Fortunately my husband was there, . Yeah. But I just wanna protect your Yeah, and I always feel, I mean it's not so much the case now, but. I've had friends who say their children have come out as gay and, and they'll say, I'm just don't like the, the idea that people might make, you know, negative comments about them or they might beated against or

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they might, it's, it's a natural instinct, isn't it?

Just, yeah. But I know you said that you'd been criticized for making it all about me. You, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, yeah. I'm laughing. It's not funny, but, but no, I mean, you know, it was a bit of a shock at the time and, and I know I've talked to you about it before and you really supported me in it because when I decided to start promoting the podcast, I went on and did a video actually around the photos and made the mistake really of setting it to quite sad music.

So for a lot of people on TikTok who are quite young, transgender people, I actually found that a bit upsetting that I was sort of showing the other side of things of what a parent might be feeling, that a parent might feel sad. And people, people

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find that really hard to understand because they say, well, you know, the transgender person, they're the person who's suffering because they're, you know, they're caught in this body that's not the right body for them, and they're experiencing gender dysphoria.

And surely as a parent, that should be your main concern. And the criticism was, you know, you're making it all about you and there's almost that accusation that you're being narcissistic, that you are, you're making it about you. I had to come to terms with that, I think, and I think how I came to terms today, I mean, the thing is, is that particular video went viral very quickly.

I mean, like, I was sitting and watching it just going up by, oh, it's up to 20,000, 25,000, all on a Saturday night thinking, oh my goodness, you know? And just never really having

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had that criticism online before. I think what really helped was separating out that this was like a video that was what, a minute long or something.

And that people in a sense project their own feelings onto you. And that actually that wasn't about me. That was about what they could see. And, and obviously I don't wanna communicate a wrong message, you know, I don't want to say it is all about the parents because it's obviously not. And people are right to point that out and people are right to say, consider the feelings of transgender people.

Absolutely. But what really helped was being able to talk it through with people who know why I'm doing what I'm doing and what my reasons for doing it are. And that was so, so helpful. And, and also spending time with people

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who love me and who say, yeah. This is a relationship. You're in a relationship with people and as a parent, you're in a relationship with your children.

And so therefore you are gonna have feelings, youre gonna have difficult feelings around it. And that, that's, that's because you love them and you're in relationship with them, and parents are perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we, we bring who we are to the relationship and Yeah. You know, I didn't know anything about transgender people and yeah, a lot of the process for me has been realizing my own internalized, like you say, unconscious bias.

And I, I would even say transphobia. And I had to sort of work through that. And so therefore I did have a, a lot of feelings around the subject and, but it's okay for me because that is, I

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am. And do you feel reflecting on that, that although. You said, oh, you did this video and the sad music and you can appreciate how that came across from what you've said about your podcast.

It sounds like you do feel like parents, they do need to talk about it. They do. Absolutely. Their feelings should be acknowledged, I think. So obviously number one is what you said to your child, which is, I love you. Mm-hmm. , but actually it feels like that's what your podcast is about, is about creating something that is for parents.

And I remember when you told me that story, I remember thinking, I can see why someone might interpret it that way, but actually I think parents who find themselves in this situation, that doesn't mean they don't need support or to talk to others. They shouldn't be left alone

:: 34:10

like anyone, to navigate a situation.

That's tricky. I think that's what I'm trying to say. And, and it sounds like you acknowledge both. That's it. I think part of what I'm trying to do is I think if. Parents can be supported through this, it will help them and that will help the children. And ultimately that's really the aim of it, is this is a really new territory for parents.

I mean, you know, when you have a baby, it's a complete and utter new thing that you are navigating. And I think it's the same when your children have something that happens to them or become transgender, whatever it is, this huge amount that you can gain from being with other parents who've gone through it.

And I've found that all the way through my parenting, right

:: 35:00

from when my kids were babies is to be with, with other people. To be able to say, that's how I feel. And to know that the fact that you feel like this, there's nothing wrong with the way you feel, it's just that's the way you feel. And, and so part the podcast is it's really done with the aim of helping parents to feel acknowledged in a sense.

It's okay to have those feelings, but that it's a process. And I think this is what I wanted to sort of get across is that for me, I've been on this, it's always controversial to say grief because transgender people will say, well actually, you know, you haven't lost anything and actually becoming more me, so why are you sad?

But I, I think this, when you've got a child that you've grown up with and you've just got used to them being who you think they are. Cause what you're really letting go of is who you

:: 35:50

thought they were. It's not actually who they are. But what I'm trying to do is support the parents to know that these feelings are okay, but that it's a process.

And that if they work through them, that that is hope at the end of it. That you can adapt. And that's really my message, I think. But I feel like that helps everybody as well. So if parents have a space to, I feel like it shaming parents. Isn't the most presumptive thing, actually acknowledging that parents, it's an unexpected thing.

Like any unexpected thing in life that happens to you. And if parents, like you say, are supported to go through that journey and to become educated and even challenge some of the things inside

:: 36:40

themselves that, that maybe they don't want to face, that not only benefits the child, but it benefits everyone.

Because me knowing you as a, a client and having the conversations I've had with you and you've educated me, I was saying to you earlier, I went off and listened to a lot of podcasts. I went and read a lot of things and I asked myself questions. And even the fact that I said, I feel nervous about doing this.

Yeah. Podcast you being open and sharing your story and what and all if you like mm-hmm. , I think it helps other people be more courageous Yeah. By seeing you do that. If, if that makes sense. Yeah. What I found at the start was that I didn't know anybody who had transgender children. And I managed to get into a Facebook group for parents of transgender children, but they were much younger children.

:: 37:30

And I seemed to be the only one who felt sad. And I dunno if that's possibly because if your children are older, you've had longer to get used to them being a particular gender. I did feel then I felt really bad. I did feel shame. And then what happened was that I started to meet parents with older children and I discovered that I wasn't the only one who felt like that.

And that has helped me to have the courage to speak out because a lot of, I think the whole thing about shame is it's about being disconnected. We feel shame because we feel that what we are feeling is wrong and that therefore we can't admit to it that we should be better. You know, we should be able to respond to this better.

And I think why I'm doing this, It's because I think it's enormous strength

:: 38:20

in hearing that you are not alone. And that in itself is healing and that helps you to move on. And I'm in a group now where, I mean, even this week someone came in and when people first find out, they can be so upset. And those of us who've got children who are further along, more years ahead can say, yeah, yeah, I can understand why you're feeling this.

And yes, it's really sad, but this will, this will pass. And you still have moments where something comes up and you just sort of suddenly can feel sad because you're not gonna have an experience or something's changed and that goes on. But it becomes much less often. And I think, you know, to be able to say that to parents.

:: 39:10

Yeah, yeah. You, you, I understand you're actually going through a grief process would be helpful. And you, you mentioned. The name part of it, which I can, my daughter complains about her name and says, why didn't you call me something else? Yeah, but it's their name, isn't it? That I complain about my name, but it's, you know, so, so that I can imagine there's some sadness there.

We talked about photos. Are there other practical things that come up that, because I think sometimes on the outside we, until you said that to me, I was like, I'd never thought about that. You know, I've thought about how it might be hard to remember to call someone their you name to not mess up sometimes and say, Hey, when you know still, you also imagine people around you as well.

I can imagine feeling that other people are trying not

:: 40:00

to mess up and trying not to get things wrong and, yeah. And are there other things that come up that we might not think about that you have to move through? Yeah, it's, it's funny, I can't, about the practicalities, I mean things like, I can remember, you know, when we first told my family and my sister-in-law had much younger children than us and say, how, how can I explain it to the, to the cousins who are very young?

I mean, usually just, you just tell them and they just take it, don't they? So that they've been okay with it? Actually, I mean, I have to say all my family have been amazingly supportive. We've been really lucky. We haven't had anybody who's really, you know, not agreed with us or anything. One of the things that really got to me, and I remember my husband being sort of like, why are you so upset?

I went

:: 40:50

to this event and it had a biography of somebody and it said, so and so is the mom of three boys. And that really upset me at the time because I thought that's what I used to be, and I'm not that any longer. And you don't even think about it, that you've got this identity. But I think that that's, it's something that I often think about.

And again, this might be something that might offend some people, but is when someone's lost a child and somebody says, how many children have you got? Oh yeah. Got children. And I imagine, and you're a counselor, that must be the hardest question that comes up. Or when you have to write a biography. Yeah.

And for you, they're still there, they're still your children. Mm-hmm. . But your identity has changed just like your identity changes. And, and again, it could be something that could offend

:: 41:40

people to say, oh well, but they're still alive. And you know, it's not, it's not death. But Yeah, its a big shift, isn't it?

Yeah. Because being the mom of two girls and a boy is different to be the mom of three boys and Yeah. It's a change, isn't it? Yeah. I gonna say it could be difficult to navigate as well, so you can say, oh, you've got kids. Yeah. I've got, you think, Hmm, what do I say? And, and you know, for a while, Say, oh, you know, I've got transgender daughters and now I tend just to say I've got two daughters and a son.

But then obviously people would make assumptions about your life, what the childhood was like. It's just different, you know? And uh, it's when you're having those sort of conversations with people who don't know you very well and don't know about that, that, that it can come up, then that's one of the things that comes up.

And I remember you sharing a story

:: 42:30

about being in Mark's Spencer's buying Nichols or something. Oh, . Can you just, yeah, that, that. Oh, so, um, actually that was a really early example of how a community can support you actually. Yeah. I needed to buy them pants. I mean, it's funny, isn't it? Because uh, you think, would your 17 year old daughter want you to buy their pants?

I dunno. But. I, I love . You know, it's so different. But there you go. I'm that sort of mum where I was sort of responsible for underwear buying and went into Marks and Spencer's and sort of looked and thought, well what do I actually buy? You know, do I buy them nickers as in girls Kns? Do I buy them pants?

You know? And actually I took a photo and I just shared it into a sort of random Facebook community mother and community.

:: 43:20

And the amount of comments I got from people say, oh, you're being amazing mom, because you know, you're sort of actually trying to work with the kids and what they want. There is a bit of a funny story actually, which hopefully is okay to tell, but, you know, going way on holiday and know we're going into a swimming pool and, and my daughter talking about what she was gonna wear in the swimming pool.

And by that point I was, yeah, I like shopping. It's great. It's great. Can buy girls clothes now. Woohoo. You know? Yeah, yeah. Thought that they really like me buying girls clothes cuz you know, I've got mum taste. So in fact my youngest daughter wouldn't be seen dead in anything. I was to choose for her. But you know, like any young woman, I'm trying to choose a swimming suit for her, you know?

And I sort of said, well, what about a bikini? And the comment came at no mum, that that bikini buttons really wouldn't work. And I'll leave that to your

:: 44:10

imagination, but I haven't even thought It sounds like you've dealt with, you deal with it with humor. Yeah. And you can laugh as a family. Does that help?

It does. Yeah. And actually, my youngest, she is, she's a very, very witty person. So, yeah. And also the other thing is she's amazingly internet savvy, like many young people, so she helps me cope with the internet and any comments that I may get and you know, we just, oh, it's just the internet, man. If I get upset by anything.

No. It's just the internet, so. So you got onto TikTok, I think I encouraged you to get onto and just share some content. Yeah. And see how people responded. I'm trying to remember the story now, but I think it was almost a year ago, wasn't it? We were sat in a retreat. Yeah. And I don't think that was what we were meant to be talking about.

We were planning out your

:: 45:00

business with two other ladies. Yeah. Coming here. Mm-hmm. , I can't even remember where it came from, but I remember we had a very, well, I think the room was just electric. It was, it was amazing because it was just this moment. It wasn't where you were expecting to go, but this idea came out and we encouraged you to explore it.

Yeah. Can you remember anything about that day? Oh yeah. It's very distinctive memory actually. . Cause we'd had the first day together, hadn't we? And we sort of looked at the, we were doing it. Oh, I remember what I said now. Yeah. Yeah. You remember? Yeah. You said to me, you said, why don't you, we quite got there with Josephine yet.

Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think I said I'm worried. Cause I feel like with Josephine there's something, there's just something not, I didn't feel like you were quite not, not that you were committed, but I felt like it didn't feel sort of like.

:: 45:50

And a funny sort of way. Exciting. Did it, it was sort of like, it didn't feel Yeah.

You know, we really, and really just got this, yeah, we got it and I'm ready to run with it. Sort of feeling, wasn't it? Mm. And it just sort of said very thoughtfully. Mm. And that just opened up this hour and it was so cross because I, I didn't realize we were gonna say that. So I didn't, I didn't record the hour.

We were recording it on our phones, weren't we? And I haven't recorded it. We started, I think, did we start halfway? Or maybe we didn't Cause we were just talking and we were excited. And this idea that perhaps you could, instead of the podcast that you were thinking about, maybe you could record a podcast about this experience.

Yeah. And yeah, I can't even really remember what we talked about, but the whole, it was just bored by the end of the hour. We were just Yeah. Cause I remember you saying, so if you were to write a book, what would it be about?

:: 46:40

And that was it. And I said, yeah, well, it was funny you should say that because I, you know, I'd sort of looked at book ideas.

I'd, I'd listened to some training on it. It was actually just as I was out walking and I'd listened to some training and, you know, it sort of talked about how to decide, and all the questions that were coming up were making me think about, talking about being a parent, transgender children. And, and that's when you said, well, how about podcasting?

Because it's through the podcast that you begin to work out what it is that you want to say. Yes. So that was, that was really helpful. And I likened it afterwards to, um, like giving birth really . That's what it felt like. Yeah. That you and the other ladies there were, were the midwives of this idea that saw it into, you know, it becomes something really.

Yeah. I mean, I think from a content point of view, we

:: 47:30

haven't talked much about content. Well we have, but you know, but I think there were a couple of things. So first of all, I said to you, don't, this could be a season. So, yeah. This is about, I think sometimes people think when they start a podcast or that, that has to be it.

It's a project. This is a theme. This is about dealing with big and unexpected change in your life. You could come back with another season on a completely different topic or you could explore another part of this topic. Cause I think when I first saw your outline for the first few, I was like, wow. And um, that's a lot to cover.

But also sometimes we're not ready to write the book, but if we record the podcast or make the YouTube video series or whatever that can be. Um, but I think the fact that you've done that, you, I think you'd have been on TikTok then and you've just been experimenting. Yeah. And possibly also seeing what some of the pitfalls were and, and

:: 48:20

being challenged. And I also feel like there was this sort of resilience there as well. Because I remember saying to you, this could be amazing podcast, but it's also a. Challenging topic and when I introduce you to Charlotte for the editing, I said, I'm introducing you to Charlotte cuz I feel this needs a professional.

Charlotte's worked in radio, she understands the legal, she understands dealing with topics of sensitivity and Absolutely. So I think it needed a professional to help with the editing. I mean, given what, given what we've shared so far, I imagine there's some people who had a story like yours and they would know it was helpful to share it via podcast or a book or whatever, but still find the idea terrifying.

How do you feel, cause we're recording this, it's due to go live next week, so this podcast episode will hopefully go

:: 49:10

live part way through your first week. How are you feeling about it and what was the process like? Yeah, this, it has been completely terrifying,

so it has felt really terrifying. But it's interesting actually, cuz. I mean, one working with an editor like Charlotte has been amazing. And I think I was talking about it to someone last week when I listened back, when she sent me through the episodes, the way she put them together and the themes that she had drawn out.

We recorded a lot of it and I did the intros and outros afterwards. And so I listened to the sort of draft podcast and did the outros and I was amazed actually by what themes came up and, and things that I hadn't thought about. So I think it's definitely true to say that it's as you

:: 50:00

podcast that you begin to work out what it is that you are saying.

And I was listening to one the other day, cause when they first come, And you listen to it, and you listen to yourself. I mean, I think immediately your brain goes into, oh, you know what? An idiot . Everybody else's brains go there. But that's certainly where mine went. And I listened to it and I listened to my voice and I thought, I'm going to get crucified because my voice is a sound posh.

That was sort of like the thing, and, and that that goes back to my own childhood and being bullied because I was so, you know, that was one of the first things that came out. And then I was listening to something and I said to my husband, can you just listen to this? Because to me it just sounds terrible.

I can't, terrible . I can't remember what

:: 50:50

I just sound, you know, ridiculous or do I need to change it? And you know, what he said was, this is your story and that's what you've got to remember. You're telling your story and people might not like your story, but it is. That's what you've experienced. That's your story.

And ultimately, yeah. Okay. I am who I am. I can't help my background. Yep. I come from a privileged background. All those things are true. But this is still, this is my story and I'm actually quite a normal person. And hopefully it will help other ordinary, normal people. Yeah. And that doesn't make your story less valid.

Yeah. And the other thing he said, I mean he really gave me a very strong talking to . is he said, you've got to think

:: 51:40

about the people this is to help. Mm-hmm. that you've gotta think about them. Cause they're the people that count, the people who out there who all you know, perhaps upset. And also I've, I hope this doesn't sound too sort of, I dunno, gooey, but I've said Tohar.

It's like a love letter. What I'm trying to do is create this atmosphere that's much, much more accepting of transgender people because ultimately that will make the world a safer place for my children. And we talked about am I frightened for them? And I think if I can use my voice to make a difference, then I can do my little bit to help make a difference to people.

And if that's what it costs, then I'm, you know, I am prepared to pay that cost. And it's frightening because you do read about people, you know, on

:: 52:30

Twitter when you read some of the accounts of people who are being trolled and docs, that is quite frightening, you know? And I was thinking the other day, oh, you know, I need to make sure that this isn't available.

And you know, I've had to talk to the children and, and certainly one of them sort of disconnected from me on social media, so they can't be tracked down. You know, those are the things that you have to think about cause. The really strong feelings there are on at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. But well again, you know, take inspiration from my husband, you know, somebody's got to say it, haven't they?

And that's me in this instance. Yeah. And I think you talked about the Graham nor quote before. That's quote, when a, which got kicked off on Twitter recently. But actually he said, would it be best, you know, to ask

:: 53:20

transgender people to talk to us about their experiences. But you know, my question will be, do we also need to hear the voices of their families?

And, because all I see when I talk to you is I see a mother who loves their children, wants the best for them, and actually for somebody who might be going through this themselves or have a friend, or, you know, for me that's a vehicle to spread understanding, um, to take away some of the fear that people might have.

To hear you laughing about it and joking and, and seeing how this unexpected, but, you know, challenging thing that's changed your life, but actually you're moving through it. You're learning, you're growing to hear you be so, I mean, something that's always really struck me about

:: 54:10

you as well as that, to hear you say, I, I'm, I'm transphobic, or I have unconscious bias and I'm the mother of two transgender children.

Mm-hmm. , when we talked about shame earlier, if, if you can say that, then for me, that feels a really powerful way for other people to, to challenge some of their own biases and, and their thoughts. And, you know, that feels like a really healthy thing again for everyone. You know, not just for for families, but for everyone in society.

To, to hear you do that and say, okay, well, What am I thinking or saying that I might need to challenge? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. And so much of that I think is just based on, we don't know and we

:: 55:00

tend to be fearful of what we don't know. And one of the really lovely things that has started to happen as I've connected with people from the transgender community is, and getting to know some lovely transgender women, really lovely women, and, you know, just listening to them and, and hearing from them and hearing what their experiences are like.

And it's a really sort of positive thing. And, and, and that as much as anything helps, I think it's all if, if we know people and we can talk to them. And I think the other thing that's really happening is I think for those of us, you know, I was, I was 16 next year, so that, that's my sort of age group and.

Those of us at this sort of age, you know, it's, it is something that's sort of completely new. And for a

:: 55:50

lot of parents it's something that's completely new. And I think some of the parents who I spoke to who perhaps had younger children, were younger parents and they are more accepting because I think we are seeing this huge change in society and that young people, they, they're not bothered really.

A lot of young people just, it, this is just normal. And I think it's my generation that is having to work through these feelings. And in a way it's quite good. Cause you think, well, somehow we must have done something right in the way, brought up our kids because our kids are very accepting of all identities and, and they're much more comfortable with accepting other people.

I mean obviously there's, there's always two sides to the story. There's always some people who wouldn't accept it. But my kids have had no problems with any of

:: 56:40

their friends. They haven't been rejected, you know, they've been okay. So I think there's just this huge change that's going on in society, and actually I think that's quite healthy.

I think it's healthy that young people say, this is the way we want to be. And I don't think it's any different from back in the sixties where you had hippies and the whole sexual revolution. This is just our kids turn, this is their revolution. And it just seems such a shame that people are resisting it so strongly.

Because what I really think is that essentially for transgender people, and I see this with my own children, I mean a day, I'm much happier living in their true selves. And when people are

:: 57:30

happy, they're more productive and creative. I actually think that, you know, holding people back, trying to keep them locked into a prison that somebody else is imposing on them.

Stops them from being truly themselves. And, and that is to the detriment of all of us and so many creative people there who are a bit different. And it's just about, yeah, they're, they're just, they're themselves. But that's the wonderful thing. We're all different and that is what makes our society and you know, our world so much richer when we allow people to be themselves.

So wishing you the best of luck. Now with the podcast, which comes out next week, where can we find the podcast? So it's called Gloriously Unready and just pop it into

:: 58:20

any podcast app and it should pop up hopefully. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. I think you are probably. One of the most courageous content creators we've, we've had.

And you know, I feel proud to be part of it with Sam and Marion that we were, we were there when the idea first came across the table. And I'm also glad that you didn't rush it. Cause I think initially we talked about, I roughly said January. Yeah. But I think that it was one of those ideas that you needed to take your time.

I think. It's not something that you probably would want to rush. So it's the glorious Lee Unready. Yeah. Available on any good podcast. And um, and thanks so much Josephine for sharing your story. Oh, thanks for having me, Janet.

:: 59:10

I hope you found this interview with Josephine as inspiring as I did. It takes courage to create content about a topic like this, so I really hope it will inspire you to create content about topics you care about, because when you're brave enough to create content about things that really matter to you, That's when you can really show up as your authentic self, and that's what helps your audience connect with you.

Sadly though, there's no step by step guide or blueprint you can follow to show up authentically as yourself. But if you are bored by your own content, if you don't really care about what you are posting online, how can you possibly expect your audience to care about it too? If you're wondering what might feel authentic to you, think about a time you posted something you didn't expect to get lots of engagement, but it.

And think about what it was about that content that really grabbed

:: 00:00

people's attention. What were you doing or saying that came from your authentic self? Because I put money on the fact that that's what it was. You were speaking from the heart. You were being authentic, by the way, as a content strategist, I think Josephine has done something really smart here by taking a broad theme for her podcast, dealing with emotions you feel unready for, rather than creating a podcast specifically about transgender issues, I think it's smart because it means that she could come back with a second, third, or even full season on other types of life experiences you might feel unready for or do further seasons on the same topic, taking a different angle or approach or both.

What I'm saying is it gives her freedom and means that she's not trapped into having to create content about a specific issue for evermore creating

:: 00:50

podcasts or indeed any type of content in seasons can be great for that too. And if you want to check out Josephine's podcast, it's called Gloriously and Ready, add on link to it in the show notes.

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