EP — Adam Pope on why Manchester outperforms cities twice its size.

Manchester’s business culture is built on graft, confidence and doing things without waiting for permission. Adam Pope explains why the city’s attitude consistently turns small firms into serious operators and why founders underestimate the Northern Powerhouse region at their cost.

The conversation covers how Greater Manchester’s geography, talent pool, transport links and industrial heritage shape commercial behaviour, plus the practical realities of scaling outside London. We also look at hiring, governance, legal blind spots and how AI is already changing professional services.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• Spot the cultural traits that drive Manchester’s commercial confidence

• Judge when to base operations inside or outside the city centre

• Avoid common legal and governance gaps that derail SMEs

• Use AI without weakening decision‑making or risk controls

• Build trust in a region where people value straight dealing

This episode is for UK founders deciding where to build, scale or expand — especially if you’re considering life outside the M25.

*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*

Spotify Video Chapters:

0:00 Manchester isn’t trying to be London

01:34 Industrial heritage and tech investment

04:02 Greater Manchester’s expansion

06:23 Culture, friendliness and swagger

10:11 Wealth, influence and the city’s vibe

15:21 Starting and hiring in Manchester

18:10 Northern Powerhouse and regional funding

22:47 HS2, infrastructure and wasted budgets

24:58 What high‑speed rail would really change

32:18 Scaling across the North

33:24 Trust, class and regional attitudes

39:04 Legal sector differences

48:35 AI, law and Adam’s Clause platform

57:13 Automation, headcount and future roles

1:03:43 Where SMEs go wrong legally

1:13:33 Business or Bullshit

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If you'd like to be on the show, get in contact - mail@businesswithoutbullshit.me

Manchester isn't trying to be London, and that's exactly why it works. It's a city built on graft, confidence and not asking for approval. And that mindset turns out to be incredibly good for business.

Today on Business without bs, we're unpacking Manchester's business culture, why it punches so far above its weight, and what founders can learn from building outside the capital with our friend of the show, Adam Pope. Adam has done some incredible things and built a legal business from the ground up in Manchester called Spencer Churchill Solicitors.

He's definitely been doing it his own way and built a significant business up there in Bolton. So today we really want to have a little bit of a feel and a thought about Manchester, about. About. Not about London, basically.

You know, I think underneath it, we were just saying, I think as a country we should be glad that we got London because otherwise we'd probably be a bit screwed, because it really is one of the best cities and most incredible cities in the whole planet. So that's great.

But I think there's obviously this London centric nature, therefore, because it's so unusual for a country to have such a dominant major city and the next city to be on a scale sort of a tenth of the size.

Now people argue whether it's Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, the next biggest city, but certainly in Adam's view and I, and I think I agree, you know, Manchester is something special. Why, let's start there. Why is Manchester special?

I think it's special because goes back to its industrial heritage and all of the great innovations that came out of that era. And I think that's then transcended itself now to. Which is very much a technology hub.

So a lot of investment has gone on into the technology space in Manchester and investment space as well. So I think it's very much the second best city outside of London from a technology and investment point of view.

And I think when you travel, no matter where it is, you go America, Europe and anywhere else, you always get asked, so where are you from? From Manchester. And it's like, oh, yeah, Manchester United or Manchester City.

So outside of London, I think when you speak to people, most people have heard of Manchester because of the football.

It's got to be one of the strongest brands in the world.

Exactly, that's it. So that's most people's reference point outside of the UK of Manchester, it's the football, which is great.

And then on the back of that, like I said, you've got really good universities there, really good innovation coming out of the universities, you know, new product graphene was another one. And like I said, the technology space is absolutely booming there. They've had a number of unicorns come out of the space, a lot of investment.

And I just think, you know, the property market, which I think is a really good indicator as to whether city's thriving or not, they're still building in a massive way. You know, you look at it and go, how can there be the need for this level of development?

But there is, because the filling the places, whether it's a residential or commercial. And I think that's the biggest sign and such is the case now is they're not just building in the city center, they're building outside of that.

So say 15, 20 years ago, Manchester city centre would have looked something like this because.

But because of the expansion outside of the city, which has sort of been grouped together now, it's very much sort of like the history of London, how he started off. Manchester ended up the exact same way. So I think it's not just a case of Manchester city centre, it's Greater Manchester.

There's a lot of great businesses that are on the fringes of the city center. And I think unlike London, it's the greater Manchester area and it keeps growing out.

Does it? Because what it. I mean, I'm so ignorant. I mean, you've got Manchester. Bolton's a town within Manchester where you're based.

Yeah. You've got Bolton, Barry, Wigan, Stockport, and.

It's one continuous urban mass.

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

And then if you go up there is. I did not long ago and took the train about and stuff. You know, there's a short train ride west to Liverpool.

Yeah.

And there's a little bit of greenery between that, but not much.

Not much. Yeah, yeah.

And then the other direction is Leeds.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And these are three really of the most dominant cities in the country.

Yeah, exactly.

So this is, this is the, the, the. The part. What do they call the Northern Powerhouse? That's a lot of the concept to say.

Well, it's not as big as London, but if you lump all these things together. Yeah, but Manchester has always had this such strong identity, you know, to be from Manchester.

I mean, I was even joking to myself when I say I come from London. People often say Manchester United, you know, but it shows how strong the brand is. They're not saying Tottenham, Oxford or something, you know.

Exactly.

Yeah, but how do you, as someone from Manchester, you know, you're British, but you're from Manchester. What is being. What's the culture of being from Manchester is the. Can you put a finger on that and how you think differently?

I think it just goes back to, I think, two things. One, the Industrial Revolution and two, the weather.

So typically, people think that if you're from the northwest, the north, Manchester, you're gritty, sort of like friendly, down to earth. I think that's people. Most people's perceptions of.

Like, when I've had friends come and visit or visit Manchester or visit me, they'll say, aren't the people friendly in Manchester? And the. The reference point is London. Because often is the case in London, people just keep themselves to themselves. They'll walk by.

Whereas in Manchester, it's very different. It's kind of like, how you doing, mate? You don't. You know, that's the sort of conversation.

I always think that's about size of cities once the city becomes big. It's like people said to me years ago, people in London, unfriendly. I'm like, they're not. If you actually manage to stop them.

Yeah.

They're just worried you're a thief.

Yeah.

And they're busy trying to get to where they're going, which everywhere takes an hour to get to.

Yeah.

So you don't have time to stop for 10 minutes for a chat. You know, you're not in Manchester, where you can get places in 15 minutes. It's like, well, listen, man. Yeah, so I don't.

You know, I think London's become so international too.

I think Manchester is known for its amazing music culture as well, which is a massive contributor. So I think the overall culture. So you've got massive football, two of the biggest clubs in the world.

Whenever anybody thinks about football in the uk, like you said, most people's reference. Reference point is either at the Manchester clubs and then on top of that, you've got the music scene.

Factory Records. I used to know Tony.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.

Let's go back to the start. I mean, not to give you. Not. Not to ask you to become a history lecturer for us today, but the Industrial Revolution.

Yeah.

Started in Manchester. Isn't that. Is that the principle?

Yeah.

I mean, do you happen to know if you told me what. You know, because even that is so innovative globally.

Yeah.

You know, I know there was a lot to do with. A lot of the stuff in this country was like that we. We could do the canals and then move stuff around. So the canal network had a huge.

Impact that we could suddenly move huge amount of mills. So the amount of mills in the Northwest, because of all the cotton trading. So Bolton in particular. So funnily enough, the book that I've co authored.

Yeah, yeah.

With the guy that.

Yeah, he's bought. Adam's bought a lovely book today, how to Survive and Thrive.

So the book that I co authored is with the founder of Reebok, Joe Foster. Yeah.

And so we're both from Bolton and Bolton, its history was born out of the cotton industry, so it provided a lot of the cotton milling services for the country. And then funnily enough, that's how Joe got started in footwear, because his family was involved in that industry.

And it's just sort of went from there. So if you drive around the streets of Bolton, Manchester, generally around the Northwest, you'll see tremendous amount of mills.

It always feels like there's a fearlessness with people from Manchester. I mean, each town obviously has its own sort of micro culture, as it were. You know, there's the.

There's the Yorkshire thing, there's the Liverpool thing, there's the.

You know, I don't know what the London thing is now because it's so international, but, you know, people from Manchester always get this sense of sort of. They're not afraid. There's a bit more of a swagger or confidence.

Yeah, definitely 100. That's it. There's a. There's a. There's a huge confidence.

And you walk through the streets of Manchester and you'll see a lot of stereotypical Mancunians. What's this?

Give me a stereotypical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've got the swagger.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's it. It's. It's sort of inbred.

You're proud. It's a pride. It's a. Proud of this sort of. This. This city, that sort of. Because not. Not to offend Manchester. Sure, I will anyway.

But it's not like it's. You go to Liverpool, you come out the station, they've got that huge building, it's by the water. It's so beautiful.

Manchester's not a city that you're, like, blown away by its beauty or anything, you know?

Yeah.

So it's not a sort of. It's a bit like when you compare.

If you've ever been to Australia, Melbourne and Sydney, you know, Melbourne's where all the culture and the vibe is, but it's not beautiful like Sydney, you know.

Yeah, yeah. I think, I think you're absolutely spot on.

I think when you walk around the streets of Manchester, very much visually, all of the recent developments over the past 20 years, in terms of the skyscrapers, the high rises, you know, as far as office building go, we've got some amazing looking office buildings. But you're quite right, there isn't necessarily the Liver Building, which is the one that you mentioned.

Yeah, there isn't necessarily that, not until you go further out. But the good thing about Manchester, you know, it's a, it's not a huge city in terms of actual area.

When you add in the sort of suburbs which now make greater Manchester, it becomes much bigger. But what's great is within 15 to 20 minutes you're in the rural areas, you can be in the countryside.

So I think you've got the best of both worlds where a lot of people tend to commute into Manchester because they want to work into it. You know, they've got an amazing food scene, you know, like tremendous amount of variety.

So many fantastic restaurants, some really nice bars and clubs. They just opened up a Soho Manchester there now.

So I think what you've got, Manchester is you've got that cool, it's always been a cool vibe place, but you've also having a lot of wealth there now in terms of young wealth.

I know, so I remember right, it wasn't that long ago when I went.

And the other thing I sort of the moment you enter Manchester and maybe this is an unfair way to judge wealth, but amount of fancy Land Rovers and fancy cars. Yeah, you can often judge a place, it's like judge a street by its cars.

Yeah.

And I was like, jesus, there's so many nice cars in Manchester, where that.

Will typically come from. You've got Cheshire which is about 30 minutes away.

Okay.

So footballer territory.

And then what they'll then do is then travel into Manchester and you know, like I say, the food scene, the bars and that sort of thing and obviously everybody else tends to follow that.

So over recent years with the boom of influencers, a lot of influences that you'll see on TV and so on these days have based themselves out of Manchester. And again, I think it's because of the, the vibe and the culture.

That's a very interesting comment, actually. And again, a sensitive area, but, yeah, it's true. Birmingham obviously has a huge Asian population and stuff. Very multicultural.

Yeah.

And Manchester, in a way, when you're saying that, you're saying it's sort of. Perhaps it's got a more traditional.

And this look, you've got to take this the right way and I can make some jokes about it, but for instance, in London, you know, it's become so international, people forget what the British culture is. So, for instance, when we say cheers, yeah. People say, you've got to look in the eyes.

And I've been pointing out in this town for about 15 years to people, no, you don't. Not in this country. Yeah, that's from Germany. That's from Australia. Yeah.

And there's a little example that Londoners now think that when you say cheers, you're supposed to look in each other's eyes and I'm like, no, we don't do that.

You know, Manchester, when you say cheers, you're supposed to throw it on somebody's head.

Well, there we go. That sounds far more British. You know, I love the. The. The swagger, the. Just the sense of like. And that's important in business, isn't it?

You know, having some guts. You know, it. We can do it kind of attitude, isn't it?

That's it. Manchester symbolized by the worker be. That's the sort of thing that you see from a, you know, sort of like from a souvenir point of view.

So you see different references to that across the city, whether it be sculptures. Stack.

I didn't even know this. The worker be is a literal bee. Like work hard.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. Because it goes back to its heritage.

Graft.

Yeah, exactly, yeah. I think I could be wrong in saying this, but I'm. I'm pretty sure I'm not. Manchester was known as, like the. The work engine of the UK at one point.

I think it goes back to that industrial heritage. I think it was meant to be like the engine room.

Yeah, yeah. What's the phrase? The. The. Yeah, yeah. The engine of the world, or whatever it was called. Yeah, yeah.

The workshop of the world, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And actually that culture will be right, because the original Industrial Revolution, which basically started up there, is. Was very hard work. I mean, it was brutal. If you look at.

Until they brought in employment law and employment rights and and you know, it's a bit like everything in life. We don't want to live in a world where people are losing arms in looms and there's five year old children collecting things.

All of that initial employment stuff came out of the UK because we invented these machines and all this stuff kicked off and we just need labor, you know, it was just going bananas basically.

But people work hard and I think a lot of this is economics as well.

And because I think, you know, if you look at the cost of living in the London now and what you know, and I love London, it's literally my favorite city in the world. I've traveled to New York and it's not the other I love and I love London. But the economics are significant for most people.

And although there is a lot on offer, you know, from a social and entertainment point of view, I think what attracts people to Manchester is an amazing nightclub night scene, rather a music scene even, you know, to this day, the, the heritage of that, don't get me wrong, the cost of living in Manchester significantly increase over the past few years. It doesn't rival London obviously, but it's significantly more than it used to be.

And that's why you're finding that developments are going on further afield outside of the city center now.

Because people want to live in the vicinity of Manchester, but what that allows them to do is live in the vicinity in a much more affordable way as opposed to paying some of the rents that there are in living in some of the city center skyscrapers.

Let's talk about business and starting up in Manchester. You know, whether I'm from overseas or I'm here or wherever, and I'm thinking of starting a business.

I think there's often a lot to be said to not go and start in London for all the things you, you know, what's one of the main reasons? Pure cost of employment and everything.

Yeah.

But when you're in Manchester, what do you, what do you find difficult?

I think there's a really good talent pool. I think the universities are knocking out some great things and that's a big draw for people. I think, you know, the Manchester unis are some of them.

Is it just one or is there two universities?

Two, three. Sorry. Yeah. So they've got Salford, Manchester Uni and Manchester Met.

Right.

Manchester Uni had been knocking out some really good science stuff for the, for the number of years, you know, world leading research and innovations. So I think, you know, again contributing or building on to the, the city's heritage.

But in terms of recruiting, it's weird because I am on the fringe of Manchester In Bolton, literally 15 minutes as a firm, we pay more at every level, at every role.

In Bolton.

Yeah, we pay more because if you want the best people, you just assume that you have to pay what the market rate for those people are. But yet such is the draw of the city.

People are willing and they do get paid less than say what we offer because it's in the city and they want to work in the city.

Oh, I see. You have to pay more to draw people out to Bolton. And Bolton was its own separate town.

Yeah.

But it's. Is it urban sprawled? It's. There's no real gap urban, but there's a sort of two city centers. Is there?

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it's its own town. Like I say, it's 15 minutes or so away. But because it doesn't have the.

Everything that we've spoken about, people are willing to travel and commute and a lot of the time get paid less than what some of the companies on the fringes are willing to pay. And it's just because of the draw of the city.

Wow. And it sounds so funny to a Londoner when everywhere takes an hour to get to the idea that 15 minutes journey time would make any difference.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

This is like the 15th on the trains. Like what, nine miles, 10 miles or something like that. That's the difference, isn't it? So, yeah. And I think.

And obviously one of the big benefits of living on the fringes of Manchester is the cost of living, you know, the cost of buying houses and renting. But people are often willing to travel and get paid less because of the draw of the city. They just want to work in Manchester.

So this is interesting. So there's a sort of attitude of work. There's a, there's a, there's a. There's a confidence.

It were as it were, there's these different little centers. There's a sort of. It's almost. I mean, do they. In a way, you're almost saying they almost compete.

There's a little bit of competition perhaps between the areas. Is there a sense of competition?

So the way it works. I'm not sure if you heard of a guy called Andy Burnham. He's our.

Oh, yeah, he's all over the news.

He's like the Sadiq Khan of Greater Manchester, basically. He's not. He's not necessarily well liked.

Is he not?

No.

Oh, really? I thought he'd be loved the way he Wants to take over the Labour Party?

No. So. So this is how it goes. So way back when, I forget the date, they create this Northern Powerhouse.

And what was meant to happen was we was meant to get our own budgets and our own powers to do as we wish. They did that, I think, for a year or three and then they got taken back off us in terms of the budget. Yeah.

So then it sort of got quickly swept under the rug and then what happened was the newest sort of version, from what I understand was it's now not the Northern Powerhouse. It was meant to incorporate Leeds and Liverpool and so on and so forth.

It was very much, actually, we're going to direct the funding to Greater Manchester, of which Ander Burnham sits across the top of it, and the rest is somewhat been left to rot. So we was meant to be part of the Northern Powerhouse because Bolton is probably, I think it's the biggest town in the northwest. 250,000 Residents.

Yeah, it's a big town.

Yeah. And we was meant to be getting some of that funding, which we never have.

So I was quite close to the Bolton Council at one time, so I got to know the ins and outs of things and a lot of projects that have been earmarked then got shelved because the funding that we were promised or provisioned never materialized. So it meant that a lot of our own projects either got mothballed completely or took an extra five to seven years to actually be delivered.

Because what the council had today, or Bolton Council had to do is go overseas and get grants and this and that the other. So another big impact was HS2 being scrapped.

Oh, don't. I live right near it. And there was a moment when I was going to be able to get to France, get up north, get everywhere.

And now, you know, what's the joke? I can get to Birmingham 20 minutes quicker. I could catch the earlier train.

It's because of the overrun on the budget. So I know something quite to this. So as a side note, I've just got involved with a vegetation management business.

We've just taken a stake, me and my business partner, in a vegetation management. So what they do is they have contracts on Network Rail, on highways.

Prior to us getting involved with them, they were a subcontractor to HS2, so you probably know the stats. But HST was earmarked to cost something like 7 billion.

Yeah, it's four times now.

Yeah, exactly.

And when you hear about what they were doing, this contract I've just got involved in, they were just literally making up the Prices taking the piss with what they were charging or wanting to charge. And somebody would just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

And then bearing in mind they were somewhat at the bottom of the chain, so not a main contractor or tier one contractor. What was happening was at every step, everybody was doing the exact same thing.

Wow.

Just basically, let's see what we can get away with.

That's crazy.

Well, it's not. Well, a lot. Well, apparently what was also going on is the bread envelopes as well. Yeah.

I like to think in our country with limited corruption, but giving. I come from Slough, which is always 150 million. It went bust and it was all. It's like, where's all the money gone? And people are like, well, exactly.

Yeah, so. So I think. So then what's obviously understandably, it got mothballed. The HST got mothballed in it.

So you're telling me in this country the infrastructure wasn't even. That was shitty infrastructure is everybody had their hand in the till, they ran out of money and they just had to cut it down.

Correct.

That's tragic for the country and that. That's actually not the fault. Amazing. I would say that's not even the fault. The people who were nicking the money because they would get.

They were getting away with what they can get away with. That's business on some level, isn't it?

Exactly.

It's the people who are managing it said, fuck off, Budget's X. You want to do it or not?

That's exactly it. But that's not what we got. What everybody saw was it was a free for all.

By which point, by the time they tried to get it under control, it was too late. I think they looked at it and gone, what have we spent? How far have we got with it? What's it going to cost to finish it?

Do you think it would have mattered?

You know, that whole argument, I mean, not we want to do too much politics, but the going left to right was the argument, you know, shouldn't you have a high speed between Liverpool to Leeds and connect up those towns more, you know, rather than having to travel into London and travel out again.

Do you know what I think it is? I think a lot of these projects are vanity projects and I think it gets folks, it gets.

It's like as a side note, something that will be the irritation of a lot of people in the northwest. They did what a smart motorway, Right? Pointless. Completely pointless. Completely pointless.

Smart motorway people is where they have lanes that they can turn on and off, don't they?

And they don't. It's completely pointless.

What's the aim of them? The aim is that you can. I've never really understood what's the point.

It costs billions, right. It shut the motorways down for years and years. So then we realized it didn't work or it wasn't safe actually.

So they then tried to introduce a little while ago, this little bit like London have got the congestion charge, the Greater Manchester equivalent. And they tried it twice now and both times it's like, no, we're not having it.

The point of saying all those examples are the money desperately need to be spent in local services, not these big fantasy project which the local service would make all of the difference. Not a smart motorway, not a HST between Leeds and Liverpool. Because to be frank, who gives a. Yeah, it's. It's an hour.

Yeah, that's that joke about if you want to get to. Because all we're going to get to is we can get 20, it's going to be 20 minutes quicker to get to Birmingham.

And the comedians like, well, if you want to get there 20 minutes quicker, catch the earlier train.

That's exactly it.

Well, I did hear someone say, and I thought, I really agreed with this, he said what we should do. The real distance that would matter is London to Glasgow, London to Edinburgh and obviously Scotland and England and the whole fracture.

You could change the country. If you could say to someone, listen, you can get from Glasgow to London on a train in two and a half hours.

Yeah.

Suddenly you'd be like, well, that's useful.

Do you know what my fear was when they, when they introduced the idea of the HS2 is what I wouldn't want to happen and I could foresee it happening. If you could short on the time taken to get from Manchester to London, what are people going to do?

I'm going to go and work in London, I'll live in Manchester, I'll get a London wage, pay a Manchester accommodation. We're going to. We would have lost a huge talent pool.

God, that's such a good point.

Yeah, we would have lost a huge talent pool, without a doubt. Because why wouldn't somebody in my world. Well, your world as well, solicitors. So.

So in the Northwest, a newly qualified solicitor could look forward to depending on the firm and the area of law in which they work, anything from 50k to about 80k. The last time I.

And I don't tend to look for these things, but the last time I stumbled across it, one of the big Magic Circle firms was offering 120k.

Oh, great. The American firms is crazy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean you'll be.

Yeah.

For everyone listening to this thing. Oh, I'm gonna get a job that you will work like a dog.

You will be vomiting at night, they will have you on deals working till 1am you know, it's horrendous. But yeah, you could go earn 150, 200 grand, whatever.

And if your mortgage or rent, whatever, it might be in Wigan or Charlie or Barry or wherever it might be, Manchester itself, why wouldn't that be attractive? It would be. No. For the.

For what?

Who wouldn't travel an hour and a half a day? Well, three hours a day, round trip for perhaps two to three times their existing salary.

How well's Manchester Airport connected now? Because I see it pop up when I'm traveling internationally a lot now.

Yeah.

Oh, you're flying direct to Manchester. Yeah, it's pretty good now.

Really good. Yeah, really good.

You can go most place in Europe, America.

Yeah, Direct.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Without having to communicate.

Because that is so important. Modern business is so global.

Yeah.

You know, one of. Again, when you compare London to other cities around the world and stuff, and you're saying, oh, you could go here, it's like was five airports.

Yeah.

You know, it's one of the most connected cities in the world. You know, you need that. And I. You do see that from Manchester. I mean, when I travel I definitely see that name on the board a lot.

And I'm like, oh, that's good.

I know we don't want to go political here and I don't either because it frustrates the life out of me. But if you look at the money that's been spent on the NHS disaster Covid HS2, you know, there's a list of them and you know, what was.

The list goes on.

What was the deficit in Rachel Reeves most recent budget she was peddling? Was it 30 million or something like that?

20 Billion? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, it's like. Well, surely rather than pissing that money down the toilet, that would have. Money would have been better spent plugging that hole.

But I don't really believe that hole exists anyway. But that's another story.

I think the narrative was just driven by these simple narratives. So people sing as well, tax people more and we can get into all of that. But, you know, if you don't know this stat, it's a really important one.

Tax the rich. It's like 70 to 90% of rich people made entrepreneurs so tax the entrepreneur.

And anyway, by the way, those entrepreneurs pay some of the highest tax in the world. So I think they're doing their bit. But the sad bit is they don't look at efficiency when they up the motorway to do a smart motorway.

It's like my frustration in London is you've got, what, 150 companies who can dig up the world.

Yeah.

See a permanently stuck in a traffic jam. Like the roads.

We got two roads to get to the school, which is five minutes away, but it takes me and my wife half an hour because they're always digging up one of the two roads. Like that's the sort of they need to do. They need to say, right, that's it. You can't. You got to get yourselves organized.

You can't just dig up the road. If John's digging up the road, you better talk to Sid and do it together.

Yeah.

Once done. And then we're going to leave them alone because efficiency matters, you know, they don't look at efficiency, do they?

And look at the question in Manchester. How do we make Manchester more efficient? It probably might be like, expand the airport. Go for the airport.

Yeah.

Make sure the roads. We've got work and then clear, you know, and we can move around. It's. It's, you know, it's the building. Planning permission.

Yeah.

Make planning permission easier. You know, get the thing. To be fair, because Alex Dupled. You came on the podcast is a friend of the show. Pick up Alex.

She's Rachel Reeves, entrepreneurial advisor. She's wicked. And she's from. She might even be from Bolton. I'm trying to remember where she's from. She's certainly from up north, but anyway, she's.

She's an absolute cracker. But she. Her point is, look, they're not getting it all right? They're in a. In a. In a government that doesn't understand business, basically.

But Rachel's really trying to do her best in a very difficult.

You can imagine the unions, everyone around her, but they really are trying to deregulate, you know, try and get the planning going, try and get some of that. So some of that is happening to some extent. I'm trying to be positive, as it were, but let's. I mean, what about.

God, just as I was thinking, I've been trying to rack my brains for the phrase I've been looking for to sort of sum all this up.

Yeah.

So I think when I mentioned about the vanity projects, I think a lot of the powerhouse stuff and the subsequent funding was because Andy Burnham and others made this case of anybody outside of London is just forgotten about. And I think that's the perfect phrase, forgotten about.

And that was the, the sort of narrative that was then pushed to try and empower us with our own budgets and powers that we could make our own decisions. Because I think we felt like, no, we might not contribute the same GDP as London does, but we certainly contribute.

Why should we feel like we just get the dregs of whatever's on offer? London gets all of the shiny stuff, all of the investment, all of the money, all of the accolades. What about the rest of us?

And I think that was the, the, the point of it all.

Do you know what's. Because I sit in London and partners, I have the pleasure of sitting at these table with some important people now and then. It's.

It was very bad actually, the Northern Powerhouse narrative, because it made an us and them. The trouble with it saying we got to do more for the north, is it.

It created this tension between London rather than saying we've got to look after everywhere or it created this. It. Yeah, you're right, it's not fair for it deepened the problem. So they're trying to shift the narrative.

But the other bit that's really interesting is if you look at why do Crossrail is when they say, right, we're going to spend 20 billion to build this train line, let's do it in Manchester. And they'll say, well, how much will we make out that, well, we'll get about 20 billion back after 10 years? Well, how much we make in London?

We'll get 100 billion. Because the, it's this. And this has been a problem, by the way, for hundreds of years.

You know, Martin Wolf, the FT's lead economist that we had on the, on the, on the show, was, you know, brilliant about this, but just said, look, this isn't a new problem. This has been going on for hundreds of years. Your problem is you keep doubling down on this thing because it keeps.

It works and it becomes really hard to spend money up north and do it. But I think, I think we all want to live in a country.

I personally want to have a country where we're not resenting rich people or poor people or people from the north or people from the south. We're not resenting London, we. But what you're talking about is really important. They need, you need devolution. It works.

Give people the budgets, have someone good. I'm surprised. I thought people loved Annie Burnham and he'd done a Great. Which then didn't make sense to me because he's a labor leader.

And I'm thinking, well, he's not going to know about business. And you and me are business people. So we're like, let a businessman run Manchester.

Okay, let's say I'm coming, I'm going to set up my business and I'm going to set up in Manchester. So there's great, there's great. There's a great culture. It's cheaper, there's great talent. Now it's very internationally connected.

It's near a great international city. I mean, what is it, you know, I don't know. You came today, two hours on the train.

What would you say, you know, when you're scaling outside of London, what's important, you know what, what helps you scale or what's. What's the important things you got. You got to think of when you're not, you know, not being in a mega city, but being in a very good city.

I'm going to come and try and build my business in Manchester. How do I think about it? Do I think about Liverpool and Leeds and I think about it as a whole area. Do I focus on Manchester?

I think because of the close proximity of Leeds and Liverpool and other.

Other cities around it, I don't think you necessarily have to sort of separate them out because a lot of people will travel and commute and I think, you know, you'll know this yourself. I think it's been tapered down a little bit since COVID and working from home or working flexibly.

So I think that's had a massive impact on talent and resourcing talent. So you don't necessarily have to choose between Liverpool and Manchester.

There might be reasons for that, depending on what type of business it is and what it is you're looking to do. But I know a lot of people that live in Liverpool or Merseyside and they will travel in. I know people.

And vice versa.

Yeah, vice versa.

Yeah.

It is very connected in that way.

Yeah. Okay. That's really interesting. And just is. Does the culture shift? Like, let's. Let's ask a more cultural question.

If you know what would kill trust up there. What's. What's. What is important in that area of the world about building trust and building respect and relationships.

People know each other, I guess.

Yeah.

So don't.

It's just what I said before is that down to earth, gritty, normal. I know that there's a lot of affluent areas in the northwest, but I think people will stereotypically say Manchester's a working class type.

When people think Manchester is like working class. There's a lot of really nice places in Manchester. There's a lot of wealth in and around the city.

But nevertheless I think overall it just goes back to the history of it. Working class I think and I think that's generally typical of the north anyway.

You know, where I'm from, Bolton, you've got a lot of affluent areas, a lot of really nice areas. But then you know the, the there is a large proportion of it at the working class.

So I think, I think it's in terms of like what breaks trust is, you know, people, you know, if you go to Liverpool very famously do not like the government. They don't trust the government.

Oh really?

Yeah, it's literally the government are antichrist to them. They literally do.

Not as a country, a bit like that. But it's extreme in Liverpool.

Yeah, it's extreme in Liverpool. It literally is. And the way that the people from Liverpool see it is again generally or stereotypically is they felt left behind, they felt wronged.

You know some of this is culture goes back to Hillsborough and the scandal around there.

And the government's in Hills was in Liverpool, was it?

So Hills. So Hillsborough was in Sheffield.

Right.

That's where I think 99 supporters were crushed. And what happened was there was this cover up led by the police, underpinned by the government. And I think there's this general distrust.

Because it's only recently been put right, hasn't it? You know, in terms of an apology and all of this.

You know, that's many, many moons ago. That's like in the late 80s. So there's a general distrust for the government.

I think, I think you should distrust the government. I'm sorry to say I've been brought up don't trust the government. I don't, I don't. I don't think the government are evil.

Yeah.

Just think. I just think they're rubbish getting it right.

Yeah.

And I think we all need to build a moat.

Yeah.

Part of being a businessman like you, an entrepreneur. So I've been brought up is like. And how my dad's brought me up. It's like build your moat. Yeah, fuck them.

Yeah.

Get on and build something strong. Because you can never predict what they're going to do.

You know, I think, you know, being independent, self reliant, that sort of thing. I think the people from the northwest, severally trusting of one another.

Is there anger?

Only because I was in this meeting with all these heavy London people and they're saying how damaging actually the Northern Powerhouse had been to London, how much it had pitted London against the rest of the country, which is this sort of. And I can. When they said it, I was like, God, I can really see that. That it's sort of. It's doubling down on what people felt anyway.

I don't think people lose their sleep over that. I think. I think. I think because Manchester's booming, I think we're very much on our own thinking. There's a lot of great things.

There's a lot of great energy in the city and around it. There's everybody's sort of like very buoyant about.

These are lots of VCs now. Lots of investment.

Yeah, a lot of VCs. Like, tremendous amount of investment.

Like this incredible wealth, actually. You. For you. You. And it's been there, as you say, for generations now.

It's like the Industrial revolution changed this thing where suddenly the richest people in the country from Manchester.

Yeah.

And they were suddenly, you know, that was the whole.

Yeah.

Where this. Mutters brass and the whole sort of nouveau rich and the whole like people suddenly turning up with a load of money and it was like, wow.

But they were driving this industrial heartland. I mean, there were moments I forget the history where Manchester was, you know, the. The biggest, richest city in the country and stuff like this.

You know, I forget how many there are, but there's a. There's a fair few that spring to mind as to how many billionaires are from or reside in and around Manchester.

So I think it's testament to what it has, the area as a whole. And like I said, there's a lot of good energy around this, around the city. There's a lot of. A lot of good activity going on, I think.

I don't think people, like I said, lose any sleep over being forgotten about anymore. I think it's kind of like that's long gone.

Let's talk about your industry a bit, which is like ours, you know, legal industry and stuff like this. Sometimes with clients. I even said, you know, you do pay a premium in London. I mean, it's a talent pool, without a doubt.

I mean, there's some of the sharpest legal accounting minds in the country reside or, you know, in London, without a doubt. But there's an awful lot of things where. There's a firm, Ross, who's from just outside of Manchester, one of the towns, Wakefield, I think it was.

But anyway, you know, the firm he trained at and we do work with them sometimes. But there's a lot to be said for going for your advice up there because what's the difference, isn't it?

Yeah, you know, especially with Zoom now, do you need to be in their offices, you're trying to get some legal advice? Well, I don't know how different the hourly rates are, but they're going to be a bit better.

Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah, I think so. My, my experience of that is this. I think it's very much a connected country now because of technology.

So what you'll find is depending on a business person's or businesses requirements or needs, it might be, you know, if there's a cross border, if there's a specialist in a particular type of dispute or whatever it might be, there might be a need for a Northwest based company requiring legal advice from a London based firm.

But I think there's a lot of great law firms and professional services firms in and around the area that most needs can be met by staying somewhat local.

It's almost unusual, to be fair, that you wouldn't be able to get the right advice in Manchester and that's not necessarily saying you have to go to London, but there will be some specialist areas that will only be a few people who know their onions and they might be in Hong Kong and London or whatever.

I think it's not, I think it's not quite like the medical industry where, you know, you've got Harley street or for instance, my dad had prostate cancer two and a half years ago and when he got diagnosed, he was literally told like everybody else, this is your treatment. Chemo radio, this is the concept, the complications that you might suffer. He was like, yeah, fuck that, I'm not doing that.

So what he did, he went on this mission to find an alternative. That alternative was like a laser knife surgery and the only guy that could do it was a guy based here.

Yeah, yeah.

I've had another requirement for something similar recently and again, the person is based here. So I think sometimes or particular the medical industry, you do find the top experts are based here.

Whereas I feel like whether it be technology or an equal good enough equivalent, you can find that expertise in the Northwest, in Manchester for example.

Yeah, yeah.

But you know, some people, I know a guy that had a dispute not so long ago and I think because he wanted to frighten the life out of the opposition, as it were, he wanted to use a big bad London law firm because he wanted to that sort of reputation to carry some additional weight. Though the person handling it wasn't necessarily any better or couldn't do the same or equivalent as what the counterparty in Manchester could do.

Because at the end of the day, I know this through the platform that I've built and just obviously running my law firm. The law is the law. Nobody monopolizes the law. It is what it is.

The difference is the application of it, interpretation of it, and the experience in working the law. That's what separates out other lawyers and other law firms, basically.

And then beside that, like I said, you've got the brand, reputation, the history of the firm. My firm's been going six years, not 150 years. There's a lot to be said for working with a law firm that's been going 150 years.

The track record, the history, the reputation, the experience and knowledge and so on and so forth.

Likewise, if you get a small business like we tend to work with, they don't have the budget and even if they did, a lot of our clients wouldn't want to spend it on London law firm rates.

So before we crack on with the show, please consider subscribing to this wonderful channel and to our mating list@withoutbs.com you get free weekly classes from the best minds in business and free downloadable resources that strip away the jargon and give you the real world lessons. You don't get a business school. Thank you.

There's a couple of areas to dig in here, more, I think, to you know, and talk more about some of your thoughts on what matters in law is important. I mean, let's start with a basic one, which I think an interesting question someone's asked me the other day about accountancy firms.

How'd you pick a good accountancy firm? People were waffling on various things on this LinkedIn and I was like, look, number one, look for these qualifications because.

And they people were not even understanding. So you used to have the word chartered. We still do. We're charted accounts, which means we're regulated by an institute.

If you're not aware of this, anyone can call themselves an accountant. Only a regulated account and by an institute is a chartered account.

Yeah.

Second point I'd make to you is that there's the aca, there's the acca, they're similar, slightly different, but those are the sort of premier accounting qualifications. There's a sema, but then there's.

If you're getting tax advice, you want to really look for a chartered tax advisor who might be a lawyer, might be an accountant, could be just a tax advisor, and that's the cta, that's a premium.

And the other thing alluding to what you're saying is, for me, it's not so much how old the firm is, but you want to look down the team profile of people and you don't want to see a lot of customer success people, marketing people, you want to see a lot of qualifications. I want to see some gray hair too. You don't want everyone who's 22, do you know what I mean?

I want to see a range of things, but this is just me thinking as like an accounting business, someone asking this question.

When you, you think you've got to get good legal advice, it's much less clear in a way in law, because some people have an llb, which means you did it at university, doesn't it? It's not like it's less. Like you can say, oh, it's an aca, the qualifications are less clear. So then it's. And.

And what, again you're alluding to, which I want you to talk about more, is like it's about being a commercial lawyer, you know, it's about, it's about really understanding business. What if you're, if you're trying to find a lawyer, what do you think you're trying to look for?

So I'll answer the first bit. I think legal qualifications are much more narrow than accountancy qualifications in terms of what is required in the pathway to becoming qualified.

So most people's journey is they'll do a law degree, then they'll go and do usually part funded by the firm, the LPC, which is usually 12 months. And then once they've done the LPC, they then look to get a training contract.

What the training contract does, as you probably know, is that real life lived experience working across several different seats, employment, commercial and so on and so forth. And once they've done that and they've met all the criteria that they can then become, they can hold themselves out.

As a solicitor, but they don't get anything on the end of their name is, my understanding, initials. You just become a solicitor who could practice independently.

Yeah, exactly, yeah. I think that in itself is just the badge you have to get, obviously regulated.

So I think it's much more narrow in, in comparison to accountancy qualifications. So the only other anomaly to that is a different path to becoming a solicitor called a Chartered Legal Exec.

So what you have is a different roadmap for that. I think it's called Silex. So it's much more vocational based. So for people that either are not necessarily academic or didn't want to go to uni.

It offers people a pathway to becoming qualified outside of doing a degree in lpc. Because the lpc, I know this for a fact, so I've paid for people to do it. I think it was like nine grand.

So side of most people's budget because a lot of the time, you know, they have to pay for it themselves. So what the, what they did is they introduced this thing called the. Is it SQL or SQL?

Yeah, yeah, it's just written down, it's SQL or something. The exams. Yeah.

So again that's to encourage people that they can start as an apprentice, work the way.

Start working in the law firm and do the exams like an accountant trains. Yeah, we start as an accountant and we do a training ye contract.

Yeah.

And that was just designed to open it up to encourage a lot more people to enter the sector because there's been a declining number in people wanting to join the legal sector and I think a lot of it's to do with getting a training contract. It's a bit like trying to get the number nine shirt for Man United.

You know the, there's only a few number 9 shirts but you have these thousands of people that graduate from uni every year and you know, it's a dog eat dog world. A lot of people's aspirations are just shot to shit because like I said, there's always so many opportunities to get these training contracts.

You've got to earn your stripes, you've got to do the sweeping up on the floor, so to speak, and even then that's not good enough.

So you know, the, the different way of doing it is this, these different apprenticeship type ways and that what they're designed to do is encourage people, give them that sort of dream at the end because a lot of the time people do these different degrees and whatnot and don't tend to reach the, the pinnacle of the career by qualifying A.

Lot of the time you mentioned a platform you build. Explain to me where that methodology is coming from.

So going back to the book. Yeah, I was asked to do this book and then there was a number of co authors and then on the back of that, join this community.

So a real, real sort of career highlight and life highlight for me on the back of it.

I was invited to speak at the World Economic Forum last January about some specialist subjects that I'm involved in in technology, AI and blockchain, particularly from a legal sector perspective. So it was the, the conversations were about the way in which source technology being used to deliver these legal services?

And then from a legislation point of view, where does the law sit with these technologies? Because they move at such a fast pace, the law can't keep up with them.

And I think a lot of people, and rightly so, are worried that, well, what if these technologies get out of hand? What are the safeguards? What are the measures in place to stop them from getting out of hand? Basically.

So on the back of that, what I've had the idea of for a while is creating a digital legal services firm. In other words, is it possible to create a law firm which is effectively run by AI and technology? And I've taken the first few steps to doing that.

So the platform is called clause law. So C L A U S E.

Okay, like Santa Claus.

Yeah. Shareholder agreements, cap table management and governance. That's the sort of the, the starting point. So it's very much AI and technology driven.

So people are able to generate their own shareholder agreements, whether they're the simple all the way through to complex. It offers cap table management because most people still manage them on spreadsheets as then, well in offering a governance module.

So what the AI bit does, it's AI copilot all the way through. And I've also had built an AI legal assistant that will literally talk people through how to generate their own share agreements.

But the really clever bit is if you go to ChatGPT or Claude or one of the others because of the vast array of training data, the reason that people are told you shouldn't rely on those AIs for legal advice or other is because they can't be relied upon. And it's true because they haven't had the specific training on the legal, on.

The law, it's just read everything on the Internet.

Yeah, exactly. So what it does is it pulls from several different sources, pulls it all together and then makes its own version up.

Whereas my platform, it's built on 8,000 shareholder agreement disputes that have been held in various different courts in England and Wales. And it's had all of the lessons and learnings of what why a case was there in the first place, all of the things why the case was won and lost.

And then when it comes to generating the clauses within the agreements, it's based on what that best practice is.

So, you know, a silly example, there's a really famous case where there was two brothers, they fell out, they had a dispute, they had a shareholder agreement.

So ordinarily what the judge would do is what does it share in the shareholder agreement because they'd fallen out and there were 50, 50 shareholders. It then went back to the articles because they'd not updated the articles in line with the shareholder agreement.

It was like, well, the article says this. Yeah, no, but we don't want it to. We don't want to rely on what it says here.

We want it to rely on what it says here, you know, but you're in dispute, can't agree, so it's default to this.

So that would have been avoided if, when they were drafting the shareholder agreement, whoever, whoever had done it at the time, they'd been made aware that you ought to make sure the articles were updated in line with the shareholder agreement. So that's just a silly example. So.

But quite a common mistake. But that's. Yeah, that is the job of a lawyer to check these things all tie up.

Exactly. But a lot of the time they just don't.

Yeah, yeah, life is life.

So my platform built on real life cases, that's the difference basically than a chat GPT. So the. We're very much at the infancy of creating it's.

I would say it's only good enough, the AI legal assistant that we've built to be a legal assistant because what hasn't developed to a greater extent enough is the thinking and reasoning part. So the reason that I mentioned before about the law of the law, they don't have a monopoly on it.

What I programmed my platform to do is have a great understanding of the law. I have these 8,000 dispute cases.

But where it falls short of a human lawyer who's got, like you say, gray hairs and 40 years in the game is the application, the interpretation and the experience. But that's going to come, it will come at the speed in which these AI models are being developed.

The thinking and reasoning element of them is evolving, improving all the time.

So when you look at the new update coming through from ChatGPT, a lot of the time they've making improvements to the thinking and reasoning and it's the thinking and reasoning part which in, I don't know, however many years time will be at the point where, when everybody says AI is going to kill us all and all that. I don't believe that by the way.

But what people are talking about there is when it's able to think for itself, when it's able to mimic and in fact actually think better than a human being would. And it's not a question of if, squish when. And I fully believe that and I think because of the rate in which the technology is involved in improving.

I think it's inevitable that professional services is going to become under pressure from an advisory point of view. You've obviously got that bit. And I'm very much a face to face person, very much human interaction. I don't ever want to lose that.

But whether we like it or not, I don't know if the counties is the same, but 100 it's this. In legal services, people will use ChatGPT for legal stuff. So you may as well. So I've taken a view.

I may as well accept it and I may as well get on the bus, Pivot and get on the bus with it.

Yeah.

And create. If you're going to use chat GBT or AI for your legal stuff.

Well, let me be the legal stuff then, because at least you'll know it's trained on the law.

Not sort of like a, you know, somewhat of an experience of it, pulled together from 10 different sources and then made my own version of it, which is what it currently does.

Is it a subscription model?

It's a subscription model, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I agree with you. I think advisory, particularly, I think law. I mean, ultimately, look, chat GBT is a, is a word thing, isn't it?

It can come up with words.

It's.

It's sort of a bit of a lawyer in terms of. It's like it can produce stuff, isn't it? And yeah, the contracts might not be perfect, but how off.

How often does that really matter if they're close to perfect or if they're close enough, you know, just to be clear.

So my platform. You're speaking to a person.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah. So it's not word, it's a person.

Okay.

So my first experience of that was it's actually the best salesperson you've ever met. It's an AI salesperson. It's unbelievable when you mean it's.

It's a literal, physical person with blood in them.

No, no.

Okay.

So basically you program your AI bot and it will make outbound sales calls. You programmed it to be whatever it is you want to sell. And. And I would say nine times out of 10, it can sell better than most sales people this way.

I got rid of all my phone calls, live phones.

Yeah. I got rid of all my salespeople and introduce this thing. And then it was on the back of that.

Then when I've been building up my platform, I built out this live avatar.

So you communicate with an avatar, which has been trained and programmed on a very Narrow thing at the minute because, like I say, shareholder agreements and governance and shareholder management. For now, the idea is to get traction with it. And if and when I do, the plan would then be to roll it out to other legal services.

This is very much like a pilot for the legal services. You know, this is like the hero product for now, but even just you keeping it as this, I think there's, there's a, there's a market for it.

So this is the way. The way I think it's going. And interestingly enough, just, just on this, which is. I'm not sure whether it'll frighten you or not.

What made me think I was onto something with this?

When I was at the World Economic Forum, there's a lot of side events, and I went to one of them and there was this guy who developed this platform for AI agents, basically, and his side job, he was working the door department directly under Trump, right? And he literally stood on the stage and he went, I believe that AI agents will have their own rights. So I was like.

So I was like, what, like human rights? He was like, like human rights. I was like, whoa. And basically the reason that I thought it was onto something is, is this.

He said, it'll have its own Social Security number. And I said, so why is that, then? And he said, because when it generates revenue, whose revenue is it? Mine or the AI agents?

Right?

And I'm like, whoa. Now that makes sense, because currently. How clever.

If he's using these AI agents to install them through different businesses and charge a fortune for doing it and it's generating the revenue. It's not me, pal. I'm not earning it.

And it's almost that next stage, isn't it? The, the, the. There's the utopia.

There's a very disruptive stage, but the hope is you get to the ut, where, well, you've got, you know, robots doing your laundry, but also you've got all, you know, things. Farming the farms, it's like all that.

But then in services, there's all these agents and it's all doing it for us, generating revenue that it can then contribute tax. Exactly. To then pay us.

Exactly. That's it. So because of the, the technology and automation, I've introduced my firm, I've cut my headcount by 50%.

Wow.

With improved processes, improved speed, improved deliverability. Now, it was sad to see those people go.

And they went with a heavy heart, but I see the way in which it's going when you've got the likes of Microsoft making 30,000 redundancies.

The sad question for society is what are those people going to go do now? But the answer might be well become a plumber because they're not going to crash for a while.

So. So, bearing in mind I'm swimming one direction with my AI product, I'm also swimming a different one, which is why I mentioned about.

I've taken a stake in a vegetation management business because I won't replace those guys in trees chopping trees down.

Management?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tree surgeons.

Yeah, basically, yeah.

And like I said, eventually robots get there, isn't it?

But you take some of these, you know, the human hand and the incredibly dexterous nature of this is that for a long time, you know, you might be able to farm a field with an automatic thing. But yeah, fixing a plum or cutting down a specific bit of tree, you.

Know, I think it's an interesting thing what could happen to unis because I think unis are redundant right now.

They've been redundant for a long time. No one's wanted to admit it because they've become a sort of like the system didn't move, did it?

It's like you couldn't become a lawyer or an accountant unless you've gone to uni. I mean, what nonsense. You know, it's. But that slowly catching up now. Yeah, I can't think, I mean, other than to have fun and take lots of drugs.

I can't think of one good reason to go to university these days.

I think. I think the courses will change to be in line with the way AI is going to disrupt it.

It's not gonna happen, you know, tomorrow, but I think it's going to happen within the next five to ten years, definitely.

I. If I'm really honest about it, I think there was only a few people went to university so it became a sort of privileged thing.

I think British, the British people are obsessed with fairness and I think actually it's a real problem for us as a culture because part of the race. Well, part of the reason the country's not doing so well is we're so obsessed with fairness and everyone having equal opportunity.

It doesn't take into car, into in, you know, self determination, parents who' absolutely broken their backs to give their children better opportunities. It takes all of that away. It's the socialism versus sort of, you know, entrepreneurialism, capitalism argument.

There's all that discomfort too, that there's cleverer people and the stupider people and we want everyone to do the same. And it's like someone put it so well, to me they were saying. Because I was saying, well, should you stream people and should it be fair?

And they said, listen, if you want any exceptionalism in this country, and I mean exceptionally intelligent, exceptionally educated people who are world class, creating businesses that compete on a global level, which by the way he pointed out, we've been bloody good at in this country for a long time. Whether you like private school and grammar schools or not, whether you like it or not.

We had had a system where effectively people say, oh well, that's all about money. It's like, well, the people who make money are often the people who are a bit cleverer. I mean, these are all really uncomfortable truths.

But if you want some people in the country who are world absolute top of the game, like unbelievable people, then you need to like, you know, allow these streaming, allow this to happen. But if you want everything fair, you have a nation of average people and this Nate, and the average means bottom of the pile. It means disaster.

You know what, Andy? I totally agree. Life isn't fair. It isn't fair what I say to my children because they're all different.

One's 12, one's nine, one's five, and they've got a new one at six months. Oh my God, I'll tell him the same is there's more than one way.

And all three children are very different and I can already see a path in front of them will be different. And I'm glad, I'm glad. And what, what I'm very conscious of doing is it's okay to be different, it's okay to do it your way.

Don't feel pressured into, I must do this and I must do that. There's more than one way to succeed.

And you know, one of my quotes in my book, I know I keep plugging it is it's not about where you start, it's about where you finish. And you know, I'm a testament to that in my life.

You know, I think we spoke about last time I was here, took a lot of wrong turns in fact, so that many wrong turns going around in circles for quite a few years. But I've succeeded nevertheless. And I did it my way, did it differently. And even now, you know, I've got a good business.

I could have continued on as I have been, but I'm going actually I'm putting the brakes on. I feel like the landscape is changing and will change significantly in the coming years.

And I want to try and beyond that that on that crest of a wave with it. Hence the reason why I'm pivoting to it.

You didn't fit very well in the system of saying, oh you will. But that's because you're innovative and creative and these aspects.

Yeah.

And there's, there's an aspect at which we try and sort of take an academic route to everybody.

Yeah.

I saw Lionel Richie talking about this on social media, but he was, he was making a good point that if you've got a creative child like you were, academic stuff isn't so important. They're going to be BC student.

Yeah.

Give them space, let them be creative, let them be innovative.

Yeah.

That's their nature.

Yeah.

So, you know, I couldn't agree with you more. I think that your, your kids being different, you've got to give them space to, to find their way, isn't it?

And we just, we just don't know what the world looks.

Just encourage and just encourage them.

Yeah.

Give them life and give them that belief. You know, I was very blessed by my parents.

They gave me a lot of things and one of the thing that I value the most and has had the greatest impact is the self belief. That belief that as long as I put my head down, didn't just expect it to happen. Focus.

You can achieve almost most things and I think most people live with a ceiling what they think, you know, why don't you do that? I can't do that, you know, not from where I'm from. It's like, it's just bullshit.

I think a lot of people just limit their beliefs and therefore they stay stuck in a life that they probably prefer they didn't have. But I was blessed by an unrelenting self belief that no matter what it was, and remember my two brothers are the same.

We put our minds to, we can, we can achieve it. So. And that's something that I'm trying to or I will pass on to my children as well.

You know, for a business now, you know what, what do you feel you've accepted that AI is playing a huge part to play in people's. How they get advice and things. Now if you're an SME, you know, what, what are the legal blind spots? When do you think you really do need a lawyer?

So let's have it right. Most people all engage with a lawyer when they've got a problem.

So what we try and do is prevention rather than cure because it's often cheaper and less painful and takes less time. But that's an education process.

It's just very much a lifestyle business.

But whether they've been going 50 years or five years, it's often the same which is the get going the trade and then the governance and documents and contracts and agreements are often either not there at all or 20 odd years old and then a problem arises and it's like well where's this? So we don't have one. Or when they do have one, it's not been updated for 20 years.

So a lot of issues, not necessarily just disputes, but issues running a business in general, all of the sort of boring stuff could have been avoided if they had the right governance in place. Whether that be meetings, contracts, agreements, shareholder agreements, whatever else.

So yeah, I think outside of generating sales and revenue, I think a lot of businesses fall short on having the other stuff in place.

Particularly if they're starting to think they're going to sell. They want to do something, isn't it?

Yeah.

If you think, think well I'd love to sell this business in two years time. Well frankly you should probably start getting your in order because it will take you a while.

Yeah.

You know you'll, you could do it in a few months if you had to and maybe it'll only take you six months but the time you found a lawyer you like and started to try and find some agreement and Christmas happened.

Yeah.

You know, two years is probably not an unreasonable time period.

Exactly. That's it. Exactly it. So yeah, that's where we see a lot of businesses falling short.

We've got a client base in the Lake District and they produce dog food, pet food, so classic sort of thing. Right. So they don't ship, they have a distributor. Right. Okay. What does your complaints look like? Oh yeah, we get loads. Why? Because distributed. Yeah.

Well, when was the last time you visited the factory or we've not. What do you mean, what was it? What was.

What is the agreement you've got in place that should there be a complaint and therefore a refund, that their response but not for you? We don't have one.

Yeah, basic.

So it's like, well how do you know that they're starting at the right temperature? We don't what do you mean?

Yeah, it's almost like when everything's good and the money's turning up, people don't care, do they?

Happens weapons. If a dog has some of your pet food that they bought from your website and there's a serious illness with the dog, who pays?

The conversation if there's a claim, you. Yeah, so this is what I mean. Like there's a lot of great businesses out there. The greater whatever it is, they trade good at generating revenue.

But whether it's having a contract in place for something like that or getting themselves ready for sale at some point in the future, whatever, everything in between, that's where we see a lot of businesses going wrong or coming unstuck at some point. So it's just about education, isn't it? And unfortunately, people don't want to spend the money on legal services. They see it as an unnecessary thing.

And that's where my platform hopefully bridges that gap between making it affordable and actually offering real value.

Well, even there, the conversation you just had with that client's very commercial. It's like, well, how does this chain work and what's. It's not like a lawyer. Well, I'm here and you need to instruct me.

I mean, we were just trying to do something the other day with it. My dog has come to life, probably talking about pet food. But anyway, he's digging for pet food. But you know, we had this meeting with this.

It's because it's on a technical issue and we want to go to a specialist firm and then you get the email saying, well, if you could give us the absolute line of your instruction. And oh, and it's thing, you know, my dad just forwarded to me saying, chocolate far gods. And I was just like, I was like, I was like, yeah, totally.

It's like, oh, you need us to give you an absolute instruction of where the edge. It's like that you heard what we had to say. You think it through.

You know what I mean?

All that's going to happen is I'm going to give you this scope of instruction for a lawyer and you're just going to write me a load of that. I'm like, that's not like. Can I put it this way?

Like when you deal, there's a chap in our business called Jeffrey and he's unbelievable, but you know, and he's a former very experienced litigator, but there's many other great lawyers in this business and I'm sure in yours, Adam. So it's not that, but Jeffrey's just a really old school lawyer. Like, like very. He's an old guy, but brilliant.

And you know, when you have a good experience a lot, it's an amazing experience.

Like, you know, it's amazing when you ask advice from someone who's insightful, who gets it, you can think through and really point out stuff and you're like, ah, it gives, it's better than AI. It gives you back this. Like, that's why, you know, lawyers.

And I think, unfortunately there's been a lot, you know, whether it's through disclaimers or something, but there's a lot of law that can be just, I don't know, just like, you're not, you're not helping me with my business. Help me with my business. You think through the problems. You think what's missing?

Yeah.

You know, like you're saying, well, have you thought about what, how does that work? And have you gone, like, great question. Have you gone to the factory? It's very commercial question. Do you know what I mean?

Well, this is it. This is why we're different to most law firms because they don't think in that commercial, entrepreneurial way and that's what we sell ourselves on.

Exactly what you've just highlighted there. But I've got a counter argument to the point that you just said about the, the guy with lots of experience.

So because we've done this with our own legal assistant, it's. Imagine this.

Because this is what I've done is, let's just say I was able to extract all of that guy's knowledge, three fine questions, cases work and all that sort of thing, and put it into a file. Because that's effectively what we're doing. You're downloading.

Yeah.

That data.

And I've done the exact same thing with my guys in the office and actually myself, because I want to test this on myself at some point later this year. Right. Download my knowledge, my experience, my ideas, create a brain that the team can then engage with as if it was me.

Because that's effectively what's going to happen.

Yeah. I mean, on a trippy level where client has been way ahead in AI. When my sister got sick and passed, sadly.

But when she was sick, he said to me, I, it's, you know, he said it cost you a fortune right now. But by the way, it's not long away. You give me all our WhatsApp, all her emails, everything. I can create her.

Yeah.

And then he was blowing my mind. He said, you can get an actor about her size. Put some glasses on and then it could be her.

Well, you can even do that now. So what you can do is a lot of.

There's a lot of platforms where you can literally upload a picture, upload a video and it will create an avatar based on you D me whoever it might be. It's already there. Yeah.

Mind blowing.

Just before we jump into this, if you don't mind me asking what you asking you one question.

So please.

What's your take on an AI and the impact or not it will have on your business specifically and how you might use it or not be afraid of it or not. Don't think it will impact.

I think it's, it's such a huge question for us professionals at the moment.

When, when I look at our business as a whole, I realized because a lot of it's accounting, a lot of it is compliance and compliance at the moment, at the moment because you need to be regulated or you need to do your tax returns or then there's an aspect to which a lot of that carries on. Yeah. You can have AI agents stuff.

Yeah.

Also the second bit that can see maybe has a bit more is. But do you really want to. These are my defenses. Before I go the other direction.

It's like, like do I really want to talk, talk about my tax with an A bot that's connected to the government that's filing my returns? Because it's all going to be out there, do you know? Or do I want to go see my account and say listen, I've got this van around the back.

You know what I mean? It's like I don't know. Do I have to declare that. What's the deal on that? You know, John gave me a bit of cash in hand.

It's like I'm being silly, but it's almost like you can't. Can you really talk honestly like that? And I think what, what, what's changing for us in profession. You're actually well positioned in that.

Is that, that the technical back office people, they're almost, they're, they're more in jeopardy because the AI is going to be really good at.

But the people who are really great communicators who build really good relationships, entrepreneurs still need a human to talk to but they're, they're going to be a human armed with AI and the other thing and, and you're innovative so you'll be doing the same for me. Like you're asking the question to me.

I just want to keep talking about it because as long as we're all talking and we're experimenting with it constantly, then hopefully we can be a little bit ahead. Adam, thank you for your great thought. I'm making the journey down, you know, true strength of the show.

And, you know, I should say, you know, welcome back to the podcast. I really launched into it at the beginning, but anyway, so look, let's do a little. Little quiz. Business or always a bit of fun to end on. Yeah.

And let's. Let's ask ourselves some of these things. So we're going to name a few items.

You need to tell us whether you think they're business or if we got a paddle. Where's the paddle? So here we go. You remember how it works. You're going to hold the paddle up nice and clear. I'm going to ask you something.

So let's start amusingly with London law firms. Business or business? Oh, that's very, very kind of you. Do you really feel that?

Yeah, I do, yeah. I'm straightforward. There's no bullshit here. Yeah, yeah, I see. There's a place for them. Yes. So definitely.

Yeah, I guess. I guess, ultimately, you know, a major city with, like, heavy law, you need it sometimes, don't you?

Exactly.

If you look at the huge businesses, Barclays and whoever else, they're going to want to deal with, the big law firms, it just makes perfect sense to me.

And a lot of the money is the American firms use London as a place to sort of work out of.

Yeah.

So this says mediation first. I read meditation for a bit. Mediation first, business.

Yeah. I think the way that the courts are going, they basically insist on, have you tried to sort it out amicably or not?

They don't want to hear it unless you have.

Dude, does it work, mediation? Not really. I mean, in theory it does. I've only experienced mediation a few times in my career with clients. And you have one person in one room.

Yeah, you think?

I always thought you have someone sitting down, a bit of a Judge Judy ball broke breaker saying, right, enough of this, lads. What's going on here? Yeah, you know, ladies, but actually, don't you sit in different rooms and then you have sort of.

You go between the rooms and this party thinks this or something.

You know, I think my sort of, like, overall experience with this is principles cost money. And I always say this to people, and a lot of the time you.

Go, principles cost money. What? Interesting phrase.

Because. Because people will pursue their principles no matter the cost, despite commercial advice, logic, rationale.

It's just like, well, you know, he Put a hedge on my boundary. Yeah, I know, but like, just take it out or give him £50. No, no, I'm not having it. It's just ridiculous a lot of the time.

And that's a great example because that's territory.

Yeah.

And we're so hardwired to get very angry about territory. There was a terrible dispute with one of my. It is a few doors away. But this neighbor of mine, he went absolutely mental.

Now, to be fair, he'd lost a child, so he was in a really bad mental space.

Yeah.

But he was absolute war with this neighbor. And he got me over and he wanted me as a witness. And he. I was ready for this big thing. He took me outside, he said, look at it.

And basically the guy had built this wall and he was, he'd gone like, like that, like at times up to 7 millimeters over their boundary line. And I was just like, what? Let it go, man. Like, who cares? And he's like, but he's taken some of our land.

And I'm like, yeah, but what the are we gonna do about it? And who cares about 7 millimeters? My wife might on the wrong night. But, you know, it's like, you know, really, who gives a shit anyway?

Oh, I'm a huge fan of this question legalizing cannabis bullshit. Oh, I like that. Why?

I just feel like I know a lot of people at every spectrum. Deal it, take it, grow it.

A lot of the bearing mind, like, you know, just life experience and the people that I've come across and the environments that I've been in. I just feel like even at the lower end of the scale with weed, it never ends well. And I feel like a lot of so.

So from a medical perspective, almost everybody that I've ever met and know that I've smoke weed either habitually or occasionally. The mental impact is always great. So for instance, I've known people that have got schizophrenic on the back of it.

I know people that have diminished any extent of their memories in terms of like, you know, short term and long term memory. So I feel like it's known for being less of a drug in comparison to cocaine and all that sort of.

Stuff or even alcohol.

Possibly, but I don't necessarily think it's any less in terms of a health impact. The best analogy I can give you is vaping.

Right. Tobacco vaping.

Yeah. Vape is not the same as smoking, but what you'll find is people that.

Vape are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then versus somebody who smokes that might go out every 20 to 30 minutes. Well, that's very different. Somebody going. And then the. The.

The health impact is starting to become clear now is like, you know, these youngsters who've been on it since they were 15, collapsed lungs, all this sort of. And I see it in the same way with wheat, kind of like, because it's less. Worse than Coke, for example. Well, I can just do it. I'll just do it at home.

Let's do it all the time, blah, blah, blah. And I feel like because of that acceptance, people tend to do it more. Because they tend to do it more. The health impact is great.

This is where the sort of robust mental state has come from in terms of release. It's just sort of like processing. That's basically what I do. It's kind of like it hasn't always been like that. You know, I've had.

Sit with your discomfort. Your meaning is it, you know, be comfortable with being uncomfortable?

You know, I had a cancer scare, new baby challenge with the business, challenges with the house. I built in challenging relationship. Everything that a year could throw at me to sort of put me on my backside, I had.

It felt like I had everything happen at once. So. And what did I do for release because of all the stuff I was dealing with? I couldn't go for a run, I couldn't go for a bike ride.

I couldn't go to the gym. Gym. I didn't drink. I didn't necessarily comfort eat.

The only thing I could do, and it's something that I've developed over years, is just process it, sit with it, and just grind through it. And I meant to mention this to you, actually. Do you know what was really interesting? I was trying to find the quote.

So at the very end of this podcast that I did last time, we spoke about resilience, right? And I said it, and I said head. I don't know if I jinxed myself.

I've been through the mill, literally. It's like it's been a very, very hard year.

Life is hard.

Yeah.

It is this great point that, you know, I'm slightly stealing it off my old man.

But yeah, it's one of the problems in the country is people are starting this position that life should be easy and everyone should be, you know, why haven't I got this? And no, you should start from the position that life is hard. Yeah. And you'll have pain and suffering, you'll have good times, you have bad times.

But it is hard and it will continue to be hard and work hard and grind through it and don't expect it all to be easy peasy.

Stress is a privilege in a way, because we don't have to do what we do. It's a choice.

And the reason that we do it is a love of the profession, the lifestyle it gives, the ambition, the drive and all that sort of good stuff. We don't have to do it, but we do it because of those reasons and others.

But what comes with the territory, the stress and pressure that goes with it, that's part and parcel of it, isn't it?

Great answer. Being professional, not getting emotional. Being professional, not getting emotional. Is it okay to be emotional?

I think so, yeah. So I meant to. I wanted to just circle back on something we spoke about before regarding the AI conversation.

So the way I see the AI is not necessarily a replacement of professional advisors, but very much a tool. I think at the bottom end it will replace. At the top end I think it'll be a tool.

I think people will still want that human interaction, that human connection, that human advisory. So going back to you, this question. We don't profess to be the most professional. It's not my brand that I've built.

I've spent six years building a brand that is normal, down to earth, that you can relate to. It isn't a robot, it isn't a pinstripe suit. It's just a person like you.

And we're there to support our clients, you know, the people at the end of the day. And it's just like we just said, people get emotional. Running a business is hard. Life is hard.

And I think the way in which certainly we go about building relationships with our clients is, look, you can count on us, you can lean on us. We're just like you. And I think it's good to show emotion because I think that's how you build connection, real connection. Anyway, final question.

The idea that you have to hit rock bottom. Business or bullshit.

Yeah, totally agree.

Agree. Yeah, totally agree.

Yeah, totally agree. I've got a quote in my book about exactly that.

At the lowest point, you can see the stars, isn't it. Adam, thank you so much for coming to do this today. Where can people find you? Look up Adam Pope, I guess.

Yeah.

Spencer Churchill.

Yeah, that's it. Adam Port. Spencer Churchill. Yeah.

Tell us the name of this book and the name again.

So this book's called how to Survive and Thrive and I co authored a chapter along with other amazing co authors in conjunction with a guy called Joe Foster. He was one of the original founders of Reebok, the apparel manufacturer.

His Reebok still going?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's such a big thing from the 80s and 90s. But you know, I'm a bit, I'm a bit looking for, I don't know, boring shoes these days or something. Brilliant. Thank you so much for coming today.

Absolute gem. This has been this week's episode of Business without bs. Join us again soon.

Thank you.

Take care.

Cheers.