Episode 12 | "Hard choices, easy life; easy choices, hard life." — Jerzy Gregorek

In this episode of Strong & Awake, Dane and Mitch explore the trifecta of challenges that every human faces: the drift, the whirlwind, and the comfort crisis (our response). They reveal how our natural inclination towards comfort can lead to a life of mediocrity and despair. Through personal anecdotes and metaphors to act as anchors, they illustrate the importance of choosing voluntary discomfort to achieve a life of flourishing and strength. Join them as they challenge you to flip the script and embrace the unlikely path to a better existence.

Chapters:

• 00:00 Introduction
• 02:38 The Drift
• 05:05 The Whirlwind
• 06:56 The Comfort Crisis
• 12:52 Personal Whirlwinds
• 28:07 Our Response
• 32:26 Building a Practice

Mentions:

• Jerzy Gregorek: Quoted for saying, "hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life."
• Second Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy): Mentioned as the scientific concept of energy dissipation.
• Talking Heads: Referenced for their song with the lyric "how did I get here?"
• Krista Tippett: Host of On Being, the podcast which contained the original reference to  "the whirlwind of being human".
• Michael Easter: Author of "The Comfort Crisis," a book discussing the modern world's comfort issues.
• Kierkegaard: Quoted for saying, "man finds the level of despair he can tolerate and he calls it happiness."
• James Clear: Author of "Atomic Habits," mentioned for his new habit-tracking app called Atoms.
• Tim Krueger (Co-founder): Mentioned as the co-founder of Men and Women of Discomfort who passed away from stomach cancer.
• Book "A Grace Disguised": Mentioned as a book about grief by an author who lost his family in a car accident.
• Buffalo and Cows: Mentioned in the context of buffaloes running toward storms and cows running away, leading to their demise.

Anchor Actions:

1. Shift the Drift:

• Identify areas in your life where you feel your energy dissipating. This could be your health, relationships, or personal goals.
• Implement small, consistent habits to counteract this drift. For example, if you notice a decline in physical health, commit to a daily 10-minute exercise routine. Track your progress and adjust as needed to ensure you’re infusing energy back into these areas regularly.

2. Face the Whirlwind with Preparedness:

• Acknowledge the unpredictable storms in your life—whether they are health issues, financial stress, or unexpected responsibilities.
• Prepare for these by creating a contingency plan. This could include setting aside an emergency fund, developing a mental health routine (like meditation or journaling), or building a support network. The key is to have a proactive approach to manage these challenges when they arise.

3. Reject the Comfort Crisis by Choosing Hard Paths:

• Identify moments when you are tempted to choose comfort over growth. This could be opting to watch TV instead of working on a personal project or avoiding a difficult conversation.
• Commit to making at least one hard choice daily. This could mean starting your day with a cold shower, taking the stairs instead of the elevator, or having that tough conversation you've been avoiding. Track these choices and reflect on the benefits you experience as a result.

Join Us:

Our Membership Community (MWOD) is where we embrace discomfort as a path to personal development. Remember, it's probably not for you... but if we're wrong about that, or if you want to find out for yourself, visit us at MWOD.io 🦬

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Disclaimer:

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*Transcript Note: The transcript of our podcast is AI-generated and may contain errors. We aim for accuracy but appreciate your understanding and feedback on any discrepancies.

Copyright 2024 Men & Women Of Discomfort (MWOD.io)

Dane: 00:00

A guy named Jerzy Gregorek says "hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life." When you make the hard choice, you get the better existence, the harder the choice that you actually make, the better the kicker on the back end. You get exponentially more on the back end.

Dane: 00:17

Dane: 00:26

You get it and you realize, Oh wait, this isn't a genuine article. But don't pretend like the genuine article doesn't exist. It exists. It's just inside the rock that you have to beat and crush and work and dig to find the real gold. Hard choices gets you to the better life, not the other way around.

Dane: 00:45

As humans we prefer the path of least resistance. We crave convenience, the payoff without the price. But when our lives revolve around comfort, it doesn't deliver. Living in perpetual comfort leaves us weak and asleep. This podcast is an invitation to flip that script, to choose the unlikely path, to get the life you really want through voluntary discomfort.

Dane: 01:10

This is Strong and Awake. I'm Dane Sanders.

Mitch: 01:14

If you've ever watched a sports film or participated in a sport yourself, you know, those familiar scenes of they're in the room watching the tape. They're not just watching how they are playing, they're studying the enemy, the opponent, they're studying their gameplay ahead of time to know what they're up against. And they're working on improving themselves and how they are going to attack. This next enemy that's up.

Mitch: 01:41

But one of the things that we often do is we spend a lot of time working on ourselves, but we don't actually identify what we are up against. So in today's episode, we're going to identify that.

Mitch: 01:52

So Dane, I'd love to hear, what are we up against? Who is the enemy that most of us are being confronted with?

Dane: 01:59

Yeah, and I would go a little further than most of us. I'm making a pretty strong assertion here. This is Humanity, all of us, nobody excluded. I dare you to find an exception to this rule.

Dane: 02:15

I've never seen one That's how kind of strong At least my point of view is on this But I, I believe that there are kind of three, they're not problems in and of themselves but the combination creates a remarkable trifecta. of, seemingly overwhelming challenge. And, and let's just kind of frame it that way.

Dane: 02:38

So the problem is kind of you add A plus B plus C and you have a serious obstacle. And, and uh, and let's name them with specificity. So the first one we talk a lot about at Men and Women of Discomfort is called the drift. And the drift is not debatable. The drift is a law. We actually talk about it in science as the second law of thermodynamics or entropy.

Dane: 03:02

or the idea that energy dissipates. So, um, if I have a hot cup of coffee, here's what we all know about my hot cup of coffee in 10 minutes. Everyone knows this hot cup of coffee is a cold cup of coffee in 10 minutes. Unless you put it on a burner or you do something to infuse additional heat into the cup.

Dane: 03:26

That's how you do it. You don't let it sit and assume it's going to retain its energy. It won't. This is what we all as humans are up against. This is why we're dying. This is why we're perpetually moving towards death. We're, we're losing our energy. We're leaking, in a sense. Uh, and in a sense, when we get to what our response is, it'll become far more intuitive why we do what we do relative to this particular part of the, the challenge.

Dane: 03:53

So, let's just kind of pin that one. We have the drift and, um, I like the, the, the metaphor of a drift, uh, you and I both spent a lot of time, uh, near the ocean and, uh, anyone who's been at the ocean, you know, what an undercurrent is like, it's like this, you get in the ocean in one spot and, you know, your family's right there all waving and smiling and you're playing around doing your thing, surfing, whatever, and then all of a sudden you look up and you're like, you don't see your family and they didn't move.

Dane: 04:20

You did, you didn't even know what happened and the current took you down the beach. Or somewhere and, and there you are. And that's what we're talking about. It happens under the current, under the water in a, in a way that, uh, is almost invisible. You, you, you look away, you pay, lose attention for a second.

Dane: 04:39

And all of a sudden you wake up and you're like, how did I get here? Uh, it's, if anyone knows the Talking Heads, they have a remarkable song that has a lyric, um, around this notion of, um, how did I get here? Uh, and it's talking about the days that go by and, and this lifetime of existence. The drift is, friends, and it's happening like gravity and it's taking you places you don't necessarily want to go and there's something you can do about it.

Dane: 05:04

More on that in a minute. So that's the first dilemma. The second is what we at Men and Women of Discomfort call the whirlwind of being human, the whirlwind of being human. And that line, uh, was taken by a poet. That's the on being and resident poet. His name is, um, Poric and I'm forgetting his last name.

Dane: 05:22

Incredible poet. It was a throwaway line in the interview he had with Krista Tippett. Uh, and he was just describing like existentially the whirlwind of being a human being. And it just, it captured my imagination the moment I heard it. Cause I, it, it, I think encapsulates this notion of things that happen to you.

Dane: 05:40

Circumstances. Bad news from the doctor, someone driving into your car without permission, the family you got born into that you didn't pick, the raise you didn't get, or getting fired, like, it doesn't matter, the upset in a relationship, it, that you didn't cause, it's, you can't control the storm that's coming.

Dane: 06:02

It's funny, even as I say these words, it's pouring outside, and I just heard thunder and lightning, and this is the whirlwind. I did not pick that storm that's going on right now. I didn't, the lightning just went outside my window, but here's the deal. They're coming, and to pretend like the storm is not coming is a fool's errand.

Dane: 06:18

Uh, there's this amazing Norwegian proverb that I, I quote all the time. That says, and this is a pointing to where we're going to go in this conversation, is uh, there is no bad weather, there's only bad clothes. And what that's speaking to is people who are foolish enough to not get ready and dress accordingly for what is very predictably coming.

Dane: 06:42

Instead, they pretend like it's not coming, and then they get caught with the wrong clothes, and then the storm ruins the day. And this is what we want to recognize. Circumstances are coming, Get ready for it. And that's just the second part of the equation. So we have the drift, then we have the whirlwind, and then we pause.

Dane: 07:03

And it's precisely at this pause, this moment where we go, What should I do about the drift? What should I do about the whirlwind? They're very different things. The drift is dissipating energy. The whirlwind is things happening to me. Gosh, what, what do I need in response to these things?

Dane: 07:22

And it's very understandable why people would, in this cultural moment, choose the third thing. And the third thing it's a crisis. It's a phenomenon that, in our world, it's a temptation to, to respond to life in a way that is= unbelievably attractive. A temptress at a level that's hard to overstate and I'm creating drama, I hope, in like slowing this conversation down because I want people to go be thinking in their mind, like, what's he talking about?

Dane: 07:55

What's he talking about? I think, you know, because it's on the door. Uh, we are men and women of discomfort for a reason.

Dane: 08:01

The third prong to the enemy is the comfort crisis we live in. And I, even that line is still stolen from a great book, great author the comfort crisis, by Michael Easter and what he talks about.

Dane: 08:17

And so many are beginning to recognize is that we live in a world, especially in the first world, where everything that we're being sold is promising ease, convenience, speed, a shortcut comfort, and all of those things, especially in response to the drift, you add choosing the comfortable response to the drift and that you're going to fall asleep.

Dane: 08:45

It's going to lull you to sleep and you're going to wake up down the beach further along with less energy. So just recognize, like, that's a bad combination. Like, uh, I remember, um, in welding class in junior high school, uh, A before O or up you go. Uh, O is oxygen and if you put, uh, whatever A was before the, like, you're going to light the room on fire.

Dane: 09:08

You don't want to do that. It'll blow up. You can't do that. And that's, you combine these two things, your, your world will shrink. You will, you will. Die sooner. That is, you're going to lose energy quicker. Comfort plus the drift means less of a life.

Dane: 09:25

Then, comfort in response to circumstances, this is where it gets next level, super complicated, and people do it all the time.

Dane: 09:32

They are under a bus. Something has happened to them that's real. They're grieving. They're under significant arrest. They're stressed out. And what do they do? They choose comfort. I have a dear, dear friend who was in this kind of a state and for a long extended season, he was really under it economically trying to provide for his family, whatever.

Dane: 09:53

And he just like, like a cliche in a movie turned to drink and drink turned to violence and violence turned to jail. And what was he actually leading toward? He was leaning. He just wanted to be comforted. You wanted relief. He might've even said something like so many say like, Oh, I'm so overwhelmed by circumstances and the way things are going.

Dane: 10:15

Like I just want balance in my life and people don't really mean they want balance in their life. What they mean in those moments is they want relief and in that craving of relief, um, they think that relief equals comfort and comfort is just available. It's being sold to us perpetually and every, you can't think of a product that doesn't sell quick, easy, more convenient, faster, cheaper, whatever.

Dane: 10:38

They're all the same marketing message because they're promising this relief, but You add that to a whirlwind, and the whirlwind gets worse. If you're in a whirlwind, you don't run away from the storm, you walk toward it. As best you possibly can. Do the uncomfortable thing. And this is, and of course this is the big, the big punchline.

Dane: 11:00

Is, if you have these things in your world, and I already know you do. The drift is real, it's like gravity. The whirlwind, if you're not under some tough circumstance right now, you will be soon enough, just give it a minute. And if your default response to either of those two things is comfort, or worse, to both of those things at the same time, which so many of us experience, and you choose comfort, you extend that choice over and over and over again, one day at a time, one day at a time, one day at a time.

Dane: 11:27

Not only will your life shrink, but it will get so much harder, so unnecessarily harder. Um, you're going to despair and, uh, tragically, uh, it was Kierkegaard, I think in the 16th century who said, man finds the level of despair he can tolerate and he calls it happiness. And this is the dilemma. This is what it's like in very concrete, specific terms.

Dane: 11:54

This is what we're up against. And if we don't find a different path than the one that's prescribed to us in culture of choose comfort, friends, we are doomed. We will get in. If you think you're in a world of hurt now, just give it a minute. It's only going to get worse.

Mitch: 12:10

Yeah, and there's a reason why Those those marketing messages work is because that often is like how we're wired We're we're drawn to that relief that promise And I think you know many that are tuning in right now might be Either just now waking up to this and seeing and realizing how how fickle comfort is And where it's gotten them Or maybe just now you're realizing that, oh, this has been my response to these triggers of the drift and the whirlwind, and it's not serving me.

Mitch: 12:42

But no matter where you're in, at, on that path, I think it is really important to become awake and aware of those things so we can do something about it.

Dane: 12:52

I want to, I want to lean in your direction for a second, Mitch, because it's funny you and I, in literally the last few days, you and I check in every day and in that process, um, we, I've, I've noticed, uh, you've had things like the drift exist in your world, your, uh, people getting sick, uh, just circumstance,

Dane: 13:15

literal storms kind of crushing down on your home and, and metaphorical ones.

Dane: 13:21

And, uh, and, and in the midst of that, I know, I know you told me like you're tempted to fall asleep a little bit, uh, to, to cut corners on your practice and those kinds of things. And I'm just wondering if we could give a little bit more. Particular examples to this. Cause I think when we talk about it in theory, it's easy to nod and go, yes, yes, yes.

Dane: 13:43

But, but then when it gets to like, yeah, but I'm a dad with young kids or no, my wife is sick or like somehow we get hall passes or something. And actually those are the precise examples that, that I, you know, I have different versions, you have your versions, but I think if we start don't name them, it's easy to go like, Oh, that's about other people, not me.

Dane: 14:04

But friends, I can't overstate. This is all of us. Everyone's included, but give some examples in your own world, like live right now, so people can get their head around

Dane: 14:13

this idea.

Mitch: 14:14

Sure. Well, uh, at the time of this recording, we're going through a big storm here in California, as Dane has alluded to. Um, which, you know, for everyone else in the rest of the country, they're like, boohoo, it's raining in California.

Mitch: 14:30

But, but that we, there's some truth to that. There's not a whole lot of infrastructure for that. And, uh, as much as we're ready for wildfires and things like that, there are certain things that we're not prepped for. And I can honestly say like, rain comes, and we're just not prepared for that.

Mitch: 14:48

Uh, and I think the same has been true kind of in my life. Uh, I know that with three little kids, uh, with a wife who is a principal at a school, like there is going to be a revolving door of sickness in our home. And a lot of times I kind of trick myself or lie to myself that, uh, the drift won't happen.

Mitch: 15:07

All these whirlwinds won't happen. Like I fill my schedule to the brim. instead of anticipating that there are going to be moments when we're sick. There are going to be moments when I get to serve my family or drop my kids off at school, et cetera. And I've been noticing that drift in myself. I'm a recovering perfectionist, recovering people pleaser.

Mitch: 15:29

And up until now I've very much been one to let myself off the hook.

Mitch: 15:34

As long as I have a valid excuse, a valid reason. And oftentimes, I can, I can double down on the drift, double down on the whirlwind and seek my own kind of comfort when, when, uh, my wife is sick or I'm sick or, Oh, I, you know, have to drive the kids to school or these stories I'm telling myself.

Mitch: 15:54

And I'm saying, Oh, well, those are all reasons to kind of not follow through on the things I've committed to not follow through on the very things that are making me able to show up in this way. Um, so that's, that's what this week has looked like for me, looking for those moments of excusable comfort seeking of looking for relief, uh, hoping that it will provide some kind of respite or provide some kind of dopamine hit or, or what have you.

Mitch: 16:22

But, but realizing just how temporal those are.

Dane: 16:26

I sorry, I interrupted it. I was kind of trying to live in your skin for a second. Like, I would imagine even like Even though work is difficult, sometimes work is easier than dealing with a sick wife or like, so it's like, Oh, I'm going to work, honey, but really I'm just trying to find the easy path.

Dane: 16:45

That's the comfort in contrast, that's in front of you.

Mitch: 16:49

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Dane: 16:53

So then you work late, you do the extra thing. You're like, it feels noble, right? Like I'm catching up. I'm serving the family I'm doing. Oh, and I'm tired now. And I can't serve you. You need me too. And on and on and on

Mitch: 17:04

yeah. And well, and you notice this too, like as you start to become more awake to these things and trust me, there's tons of opportunities in my world to become more awake to these. Uh, but you realize these small moments and how they cascade, like you were saying, the tired example, that's like a go to, especially for parents with young kids or busy professionals.

Mitch: 17:27

It's like. Oh, I'm tired. Oh, like that's why I responded in this way or that's why I can't do this thing. Um, and man, that is not, that's not the, in the, that's not the place that I want to be at. I want to be in a position of strength, not working from behind. But I'd be curious staying in your world. You know, we've got the thunder and the storms going on there.

Mitch: 17:48

What, what, what are some examples of this whirlwind and drift, uh, in your stage of life or where you're at now?

Dane: 17:55

Yeah. So my, I have four kids. My youngest is 18 this week and she is getting ready to go to college. Uh, which means if you're doing the math, that's four kids to college. So that's not a significant contribution to their future.

Dane: 18:09

Our kids contribute, but we, we, we back them. And, that's just normal, right? I would even call that like, not circumcision, like that's opportunity. I'm like, Oh, what a gift I get. I'm like, what a privileged position to be in, but there's still things, energy that's dissipating in that money, cost, burden, time, energy, it takes to kind of figure all this stuff out.

Dane: 18:29

There's just like a tax there that is real. It's also grieving our fourth kid. Uh, my poor wife has to live with just me for the rest of her life. She's like wanting to buy animals left and right to kind of fill in the gap here. And, um, we laugh, but it's totally true. And, uh, she, she's not a member of men and women of discomfort, but she's reminds me all the time.

Dane: 18:51

She's had to live with me for these many decades. So she's. She's definitely a woman of discomfort. Um, so, so in the midst of that, that's just kind of life stuff. That's not a storm. But there are storms in the middle of it. Like my mom, who is, uh, uh, suffering under significant memory issues as she ages, and she lives on her own, and my brother's there, and he's under duress, and he is requesting help.

Dane: 19:18

She lives quite far away in a different country, um, and that means, um, Gosh, if I'm going to be a good brother showing up for my mom and my brother and his family consistently, which I haven't been, that's a, that's a consideration. Um, how do I stand up in the midst of the need that's obvious and real? And my own grief.

Dane: 19:38

Um, my own birthday happened recently. And with my mom's memory issues, you might guess like my mom forgets things and it's sad, you know, even though, uh, I'm a mature man, I, sometimes I feel like a little kid just feeling things and, uh, and that is, it's really uncomfortable. Um, and then you add things like we're selling our house right now.

Dane: 20:01

And, uh, we live in community with my brother and sister in law and my wife and I, and, and, uh, our daughter and, uh, We live in this amazing home, um, up in the foothills of Northern California, up toward Lake Tahoe. And we're giving up this 115 year old home, which we're sad about. And, uh, we, we, we agreed when we got into this partnership that if we'd split, we, anyone needed it, we'd split and, and the needs been made known.

Dane: 20:25

So we're doing that. We're getting out and so there's a process of selling a home, it's an old home, so there's a bunch of things we need to do, we're negotiating prices, we're, um, doing this in the midst of a job and running a community, and, uh, and in the middle of that we're considering a move to Southern California or somewhere else, and, uh, and all of these things, and my daughter's graduating and the timing isn't just quite right, so it's just circumstances, things that are happening.

Dane: 20:52

That have nothing to do with things like, you know, paying the mortgage or I have a race that I'm running in a month or, um, you know, things that I'm already choosing. My life's pretty full. I have a full time job. I do a lot of work. So, you add all those things up and the exact same temptations that you're describing, Mitch, like, To the letter are my experiences, totally different circumstances, the exact same temptation in response.

Dane: 21:19

A hundred percent of that, like every single day and I get to decide if I want to win the day or not. And it's entirely within my agency if I do. And it's entirely within my agency and my, Responsibility, opportunity, or missed opportunity, if I don't. And I think that's the part that gets missed, and I hope that's where we can move the conversation next, because these challenges are not the end of the story.

Dane: 21:47

We have to pause long enough to look at them square in the face, and acknowledge them for what they are, but it begs the question, what kind of a response do you design, To have a life where you're thriving and flourishing despite the drift, despite the whirlwind and despite the constant temptation to pull the ripcord and get short term comfort.

Mitch: 22:07

Yeah, i'd love to to move towards like what is that response? How can we be equipped to to make that and even if ill equipped still choose that? Um, and I but I before we move to that I do want to acknowledge like I understand that we're talking about, you know oh i'm tired because you know, I work full time.

Mitch: 22:27

My wife has a job. We have three healthy kids You have a home like I want to acknowledge that like this is you know a place of privilege But I uh, but I also know that you know The whirlwind and the drift is not, you know divided by economic levels or is not unique or distinct to uh, You know certain individuals that that have or lack privilege The drift and the the whirlwind is a human condition It finds us all and of course, we're all in different circumstances but I do want to acknowledge that as as we all have different things that we're navigating because I know that myself if I'm putting myself in the listeners ears as I look for justification as I look for A reason to seek comfort.

Mitch: 23:14

Uh, it's one I want to position that these people don't get it. Or, or you don't understand. That's right. Or no, no, no. You can seek comfort or you, you can choose the, the hard thing, but I. You don't understand what I'm under. Um,

Dane: 23:30

I'm so glad you said that.

Mitch: 23:30

And maybe we don't, but I, yeah, go ahead Dane.

Dane: 23:33

Well, we asked the question relative to this particular moment, which actually is a moment of tremendous favor that I think both of us are experiencing.

Dane: 23:39

And we're, I, I, I know I am, I know you are grateful at a level, but it's not like this was, is a, a constant. Uh, most of my adult life has been hand to mouth. Wondering if I'm going to make a rent, not mortgage rent this month. Uh, and, and beyond that, uh, and that's still a privileged position to be clear. Uh, and then you go further.

Dane: 24:00

If anyone knows our origin story of men and women of discomfort, I'm a co founder. The other co founder, Tim is dead and he died of stomach cancer and he was a man of discomfort in his final year of life. And, uh, and there was a reason, um, he understood the path that he was To the bigger life, the bigger game.

Dane: 24:20

Uh, just this morning I was in a conversation with my friend, Matt, who told me about this book. I've not read it, but the story I won't ruin. It's an older book and it's called, um, a grace disguised. And it's about an individual who, um, the author, uh, in one tragic car accident, he was in the car with his mom and his wife and his baby daughter, and he was the only survivor.

Dane: 24:47

So he lost his mom. His partner and his child in one moment. And, uh, the, the story chronicles his grief. And in particular, this is the phenomenon that is so remarkable to me is he was lost in this kind of very understandable whirlwind of, of, um, just constant, remind, like he'd have nightmares of the storm that's coming and he couldn't get away and it was always, it's just taking him down.

Dane: 25:17

He couldn't breathe. He couldn't like all the things, just horrific level things that we, we Even if I was the best poet who could ever describe a thing, uh, we'd fail from his experience. It was so dark and, and somehow in the midst of that thing, uh, he got a vision to, instead of running from the storm, he turned back towards the storm and went through the storm.

Dane: 25:44

It was very different experience. It was harder in the short term. And yet it was the path to seeing the dawn on the other side. And, uh, you know, one of the reasons why we're big fans of, of the Buffalo, uh, is because they're the animal that runs toward the storm. Uh, they don't run away. Uh, the same friend of mine, Matt told me another story about, uh, This little kid's book called Be the Buffalo and Be the Buffalo is about, um, it contrasts buffaloes with cows and bulls and what they do when storms show up.

Dane: 26:17

And it turns out that, um, cows and bulls for very different reasons, they run away from storms and And buffaloes run toward the storm. Well, he, he was sharing this in the context of a farmer who had heard the guy who wrote the book, give a keynote. And he was, my friend, Matt was in the room and the farmer came up to the author and said, Hey, you're not lying.

Dane: 26:38

We have a huge ranch with all these cattle storm had sure enough. And the guess what the cows did. They ran in one direction until they hit the electric fence and they were leaning against the electric fence. Forever, like for a long period of time, just zap, zap, zap. 75 head of cattle electrocuted themselves, not in an instant, over zap, zap, zap.

Dane: 27:04

You ever held to electric fence? They don't, anybody, any human, a kid could hold onto it and just go, Oh, it's kind of a shock and it feels weird, but that won't kill you, but you do it enough. What does it do? It expedites the fear of the storm and grabbing the thing, expedites the drift. And all of a sudden you're like, you make the comfortable choice.

Dane: 27:24

You don't die right away. You're just going to wait a long time, like, but you will die eventually, just like those 75 head of cattle. And so I both want to acknowledge what you're saying, man. There's no question we're from the, the, the examples we're giving compared to some of those, those are listening.

Dane: 27:43

We can't relate to your situation until we get it. But I will, I think you'd be hard pressed to disagree that they're in the same category. The category of the drift is the same, the category of the whirlwind, however grave. It's the same and the temptation to choose comfort in response is the same. And in that we can agree and I think in that we can consider what do we do in response instead.

Mitch: 28:07

Yeah. So, so what is that response you, you had mentioned kind of in passing there and of course people will be familiar with this cause it's embedded in our DNA and even the subtitle of the show, the, the unlikely path, like what is that unlikely path? Like how, how might we respond instead of seeking relief, instead of seeking comfort?

Mitch: 28:26

How do we find instead of balance, uh, what's on the other side of choosing discomfort?

Dane: 28:33

Yeah. And to increase the stakes even higher, like it doesn't take long to get overwhelmed by all the options, uh, of things to go do. Because the short answer is, well, choose the hard thing, choose the hard thing precisely when you're tempted to choose the easy thing.

Dane: 28:49

And, uh, you know, one of our, uh, Inspirations in our community is a guy named Jerzy Gregorek who says hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life. And I think this gets right to the point of what we're addressing here. When you make the hard choice, you get the better existence and the hot, the harder, the choice that you actually make, the better, the kicker on the back end, you get exponentially more on the back end.

Dane: 29:18

If the choice is particularly hard, even though it's understandable, you wouldn't pick it. If you did pick it, The return is ridiculous. Likewise, when the choice is so easy, it's fool's gold. It's pretending as though I can just get the easy thing quick and easy and convenient and cheap and fast and just the thing.

Dane: 29:38

And it's like you get it and you realize, Oh wait, this isn't a genuine article. But don't pretend like the genuine article doesn't exist. It exists. It's just inside the rock that you have to beat and crush and work and dig to find the real gold. Hard choices gets you to the better life, not the other way around.

Dane: 30:00

And it's funny. That's the big kind of inside joke at men and women have discomfort is we are actually committed to comfort at a level that most people don't understand, but we want the real comfort, the comfort that is truly comfort. That, that doesn't go away. That doesn't dissipate the moment, you know, the sugar passes through your taste buds.

Dane: 30:20

Uh, and craving more sugar. Instead, we eat the vegetable, and we don't get the kicker on the front end, but our body gets stronger. We actually don't crave the crap food. And, and we actually satiate. Like, it's, it's such an easy metaphor and hard set of choices. But, uh, that's the short answer. The short answer is make the hard choice.

Dane: 30:37

Make the discomforting, difficult decision. Do the hard thing. And you, if you're really smart, you'll habituate around it. You'll decide I'm going to be the kind of person who wants to do that and build habits around that. And over time, those habits can actually turn into routines. But where it gets really exciting is when the routines go one more step and they become an immovable object in your life, an operating system in your life, the context within which you do your life.

Dane: 31:02

And when you, when you get to that place, your practice actually buoys you in the midst of the drift. It buoys you in the midst of the storm. And it reveals comfort for what it is, and, and you start to look at it and realize that's, that's the fool's choice. That's the choice, that's the sucker bet right there.

Dane: 31:22

And I don't want that fool's gold. I want, I want the real thing. But of course when you build a practice you start thinking comprehensively in your life. We talked about this when we talked about Credo, like, You start extending, you go, well, what if I do this with my fitness or my food or finances or relationships or, you know, fill in the blank and you start building this huge list and we do not recommend people start with a huge list unless you are locked into community and you have people around you who are doing it like full on.

Dane: 31:49

But if you're by yourself, go as minimally viable as you can pick the smallest thing that you can consistently do as a habit. It's funny. So, um, James Clear, uh, author of Atomic Habits, just came out with an amazing new little app, uh, that I have a beta on, um, called Atoms. And what's so cool, it's a habit tracker, but he only lets you add one habit.

Dane: 32:12

And until you have at least, and I won't even say the number, at least a significant amount of days in a row where you've kept the habit as prescribed exactly, then he doesn't even give you the option to track a second habit. Interesting. And I think if you're on, if you're on your own, I think that's the right path.

Dane: 32:26

I really do. Uh, but if you're not, you don't have to be it on your own. This is like, like, why would you do this by yourself? It doesn't make any sense to me when there's actual communities of people who are doing this together already. And I think it's that community piece, even though it's still an individual act to choose that hard thing and to map a pathway where you can make this comprehensive in your life.

Dane: 32:49

Uh, we're not in a rush. Uh, there's this notion, uh, the military say slow is smooth and smooth is fast. We go slow at this thing. But we do it in community in such a way where you can actually build your whole life around this and actually discover life despite the whirlwind, despite the drift and despite the call to comfort.

Mitch: 33:11

We were reflecting in this community, uh, and I had posed this question and, and someone responded with, um, yeah, I want a hard life. Yes. And I'm, and, and I was like, I love the spirit of that. Yes, but I want to be clear. We're not seeking a hard life like this hard might be the the the path to a better life But we're not we're not, you know sadists here.

Mitch: 33:37

We're not trying to Seek a hard life and I think it's an important reminder like good is not the antithesis of hard. Oftentimes the hard things are the good things. And uh, ultimately for this, this better life. And we were talking before this call and he said, oftentimes, like this goal is true comfort, not this fleeting effervescent comfort that is so alluring.

Mitch: 34:06

These sirens that are going to bring us against the rocks. Um, but, but it might not look like we think it does. It's not nirvana. It's not this euphoric feeling. So I, I do think as we get to navigate this, it's so, so helpful to do it alongside others, like you were saying, to be a mirror to you and, and to, to, to not go it alone.

Dane: 34:30

Well, so really I wasn't thinking about sharing the story until just now, but I think you teed this up pretty nicely. Um, and maybe this is a good kind of story to end on for folks. For those who know me on a more personal level, and Mitch you are one of those dear friends, I

Dane: 34:44

I'm a pretty emotionally high maintenance dude. My poor wife. Uh, I have a lot of highs and lows. Um, kind of publicly I can kind of keep a front, but there's a lot going on in my heart and soul and wrestling matches and, um, uh, like a little snapshot, like so my dad dies and I'm three, my dad died My dad's dad died when my dad was three.

Dane: 35:06

I have four kids. Like I have issues, man. Like I've logged some time on couch with good therapists. And, and so I say that as a backdrop to say like, um, I have a tendency towards melancholy and, uh, discouragement and, my birthday just happened and, uh, leading up to my birthday, birthdays are really loaded to me probably because of things like anxiety about, like, will my mom remember, things, little silly things like that.

Dane: 35:33

And will I make the most of the day? And, um, will I waste it? Will I squander it? Like all these kind of fears going into the day. And in the middle of that, I have all of my friends, friends who are saying things like, oh, I hope you're spoiled rotten. Oh, get that extra piece of cake. Uh, uh, sleep in, uh, you know, all these kinds of invitations.

Dane: 35:55

And if there's one day of the year when you get to do that, what, what is that day? Of course it's your birthday.

Dane: 35:59

It's in our culture.

Dane: 36:00

So, uh, what do you think my big temptation is? Forget the drift, even though it's also an actual marker that I'm aging, heading closer towards death. And, um, I have so much going on, like I mentioned earlier, gosh, wouldn't it be a relief, uh, to, to all those circumstantial things to, uh, just take a day.

Dane: 36:21

And, um, the night before my birthday, I was at, uh, a workout at CrossFit, and my dear friend Cinnamon, who, uh, she owns the CrossFit gym up here in Auburn, invites me on a long trail run. She doesn't even tell me the distance. She says the length of time we'll be on trail. And she tells me it's gonna be three and a half hours.

Dane: 36:39

And, um, but there'll be lots of opportunities for you to get off trail because I'm really, once I get on trail, I love to quit early. No, I don't. I, I, I just hate that feeling. So, um, she knows what she's doing. Uh, and she, uh, she, it's not just her, it's her and another buddy of mine, Tony, she and Tony are training for a hundred mile races later this year.

Dane: 36:59

And, we're side by side on this thing, we get going, and we end up running for four and a half hours. I started, I got up at 5 30, I started with a cold shower on my birthday, got on the trail, 21 miles later, way more than I thought I was gonna hit. Trail running, elevation, all the things, and uh, I finished it, and just kind of late morning, people are waking up and getting after the day, and How do you think I felt at the end of that day?

Dane: 37:27

How do you think anyone in the human race would feel if they had their birthday with all those circumstances, they go and they do the, they do their run, they surprise themselves at what shows up in them in the context of community. Cause I wouldn't have done it on my own. I don't think I get to the end of that.

Dane: 37:41

Of course I felt like a million bucks. I mean, I won my birthday before my birthday even started. Like it was like this whole, it was this talk about euphoric, like that just happened. And it's not about 21 miles. It's, it's not the point. It's the point is like, whatever your 21 mile thing is that, that thing that just seems like that's not possible.

Dane: 38:05

I can't do that. And you just, you don't do that. You take one step toward doing that every day, one little step. And on this day, on this, I had no mental health issues on this day. I found myself at a level of satisfaction and significance and meaning and purpose rolling into the celebrations. That were nothing but like gratitude, nothing.

Dane: 38:33

It wasn't a flex. It was a, I cannot believe I have the privilege of making a hard choice and actually making it so I could get to this. Now I'm going into the celebration and it's, it's fundamentally, it's fundamentally different. And, um, and I want that for my friends. I want to be metaphorically running on the trail with friends.

Dane: 38:54

Like I got invited to do, and that's what we do at men and women's comfort. We invite people. On the metaphorical trail and, uh, we won't make you run 21 miles. Uh, you might find yourself doing crazy stuff like that. Not cause you have to, because you get to, and you start to see your, your world opening up in terms of possibility.

Dane: 39:12

And that's why I don't have any plans of getting off. Even though there are a lot of hard days where the drift is on, there's a lot of hard days where storms are crashing and I'm craving relief all the time. Um, but when I, when I can find the courage in the midst of that to do the thing, the thing always delivers.

Mitch: 39:32

Yeah. And I imagine what you, what you discovered on the other side of that 21 miles and winning that day is what you thought you might experience if you pursued all of those other comforts.

Dane: 39:45

That was the lie, that was, that was the fool's gold, man.

Mitch: 39:48

Yeah.

Dane: 39:49

And, uh, and I, there's something in my spirit that was like, I don't think that's true, but I kind of wanted to believe it.

Dane: 39:55

I kind of did. I wanted to be an accomplice to myself. And, uh, and it took a friend to see through it and go, come on, dude, you can quit whenever you want. Let's go. And yeah, I'm grateful.

Mitch: 40:12

Yeah. Well, I'm grateful for you, Dane. Happy belated birthday. If you'd like to jump in and, uh, celebrate with Dane himself and participate in the hard and good work that we're doing, uh, visit us at mwod.io, MWOD.IO, or check out the show notes for more details. Thanks again, Dane.

Dane: 40:32

Thanks, Mitch.

Dane: 40:32

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