Shownotes
Have you ever worried about being an “unethical” coach?
The fear of people questioning our integrity because of a choice that we make about our business is actually getting in the way of us helping more people.
In this episode, Ashley dives into her relationship with the word unethical and why she’s no longer worried about it. She shares the mistakes she made when she was acting from a fear of wanting to be ethical and well-liked, plus the changes she’s making to fix those now. She also explores a few of the common practices that have been deemed unethical in the business world but that are actually valuable.
And, she offers new ideas for how to think about ethics from a different perspective that will make it so much easier for you to make decisions in your business that you fully stand behind without the fear of being labeled as unethical.
02:22 — The rise of ethical vs. scammy in the online coaching industry
03:53 — The most ethical thing you can do in your business
07:32 — ”Unethical” practices that can actually support clients
07:49 — Is it ethical to charge someone $50,000 for a group coaching program?
09:32 — How to become a discerning consumer and ensure you can get results inside of an offer
12:25 — Are countdown timers pressuring people?
13:46 — Is scaling a group offer to 2-3x the size unethical?
16:56 — Changes Ashley’s making now that she’s not focused on being “ethical”
17:11 — Recognizing that opinions are going to help clients get results
18:59 — Pricing on the result, not on the “value”
20:51 — Practice putting on the thought of, "will this help my clients get more results?”
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Transcripts
When I decided to put down and not worry so much about the question
Speaker:of, "am I being an ethical coach?"
Speaker:and really looking at my business through the lens of, "how do I get
Speaker:my clients more results instead of, does this make me a good person?"
Speaker:I have a list of dozens of things I can do and that I'm working
Speaker:on to update my program, update my messaging, update my website.
Speaker:And it's coming from a place of wanting to serve my clients at a higher capacity.
Speaker:And it's not coming from shame and fear of wanting to be liked or
Speaker:wanting to be called a good person.
Speaker:Welcome to Systems Famous, the podcast where we're revolutionizing the coaching
Speaker:industry by putting client results first.
Speaker:I'm Ashley Pendergraft, a systems and automation expert with over five years
Speaker:of experience in the coaching industry.
Speaker:Let's get into the show.
Speaker:Hello and welcome to this episode of Systems Famous.
Speaker:So this episode is titled Why I Am Not Worried about Being an Ethical Coach
Speaker:anymore and what I'm focusing on instead.
Speaker:But this is a journey for me.
Speaker:I have worried about being called unethical the entire time I've been in
Speaker:business, and it's only been recently that I've really realized it's feel
Speaker:like I'm waking up from a dream.
Speaker:Being worried about being called unethical has really hurt me
Speaker:and my business and my clients.
Speaker:So this honestly feels like a super vulnerable episode because this
Speaker:is something I'm kind of unpacking and untangling in real time.
Speaker:So on this episode, I'm gonna go into my personal relationship with the
Speaker:word unethical, my hyper fixation on being an ethical business owner
Speaker:and how that's gotten in the way.
Speaker:I'm gonna share some of the mistakes that I've made because I was more worried
Speaker:about being ethical and well-liked than actually getting my client's results.
Speaker:And I'm also going to talk about some of the common, unethical things in business
Speaker:that I think are actually helpful, give us some different language to use instead of
Speaker:calling people unethical, really getting down to the root of what are we actually
Speaker:saying and how can we actually improve this industry instead of calling people
Speaker:unethical or scammy or anything like that.
Speaker:So in 2020 and 2021, I was very into talking about what was ethical and
Speaker:what wasn't in the coaching industry.
Speaker:There was a lot of people getting called out for some pretty
Speaker:valid things in that time.
Speaker:And I was in those comment threads.
Speaker:I was Voxing my friends, being like, oh my God, did you see what
Speaker:this person said about this person?
Speaker:And this person is saying this person's un unethical.
Speaker:And I'm fully calling myself out here.
Speaker:I loved the drama.
Speaker:I loved listening to it.
Speaker:I loved the drama.
Speaker:And something else that I liked about it honestly was like, it felt like
Speaker:, there were good coaches and there were bad coaches, and I wanted to be on
Speaker:the side of the good coaches and the coaches who cared about their people.
Speaker:It felt very like David and Goliath energy of like, there's these big
Speaker:celebrity coaches that are preying on people and they're manipulating the
Speaker:entire industry and they're teaching these really scammy things and they're
Speaker:terrible and they just want money grabs and that has, that was a big part of
Speaker:the narrative of the coaching industry.
Speaker:Really a trend that I saw was it was all, it was mostly bigger coaches.
Speaker:It was pointing out and pointing fingers at the big coaches and how
Speaker:scammy they were because they had grown too fast or they just like are
Speaker:caring more about growth and their own bottom line than their actual clients.
Speaker:Hindsight is 2020 right.
Speaker:Now I know that I don't think we would be calling folks unethical
Speaker:if they had been focused on proving and showcasing their client results.
Speaker:So I think a lot of the reasons why we throw around the word unethical or scammy
Speaker:is because coaches were not showcasing their client results, or they grew so
Speaker:fast that they didn't have the time to shore up their systems to make sure that
Speaker:all the clients that they were bringing in were getting actual client results.
Speaker:So I'm not focused on being called an ethical coach anymore.
Speaker:I am focused on getting my clients' results.
Speaker:And I actually think that that is the ethical thing to do, and that if you focus
Speaker:on your client results, it's like the most ethical you can be in this industry.
Speaker:I think, and I think other people might not agree with this, but I really
Speaker:don't think even the biggest coaches in our industry are just sitting
Speaker:there thinking about like, how can I scam my audience out of millions
Speaker:of dollars so I can become richer?
Speaker:I don't think people are thinking like that, but I do think that people grew too
Speaker:quickly and it was just a systems issue.
Speaker:So they're not scamming people intentionally.
Speaker:There is just a systems issue when you are that big, when you have a million
Speaker:dollar business, when you have a big team.
Speaker:I can see now because I've been in some of these businesses and I've
Speaker:watched some of these people firsthand.
Speaker:I see how quickly, you know, an error in a customer service response can
Speaker:have a trickle down effect of really harming people client experience
Speaker:and how you see the jump to calling someone unethical when it was really,
Speaker:there was just like a systems and operations and onboarding issue.
Speaker:When I decided to put down and not worry so much about the question
Speaker:of, "am I being an ethical coach?"
Speaker:and really looking at my business through the lens of, "how do I get
Speaker:my clients more results" instead of, "does this make me a good person?"
Speaker:I have a list of dozens of things I can do and that I'm working
Speaker:on to update my program, update my messaging, update my website.
Speaker:And it's coming from a place of wanting to serve my clients at a higher capacity.
Speaker:And it's not coming from shame and fear of wanting to be liked or
Speaker:wanting to be called a good person.
Speaker:It's a really subtle shift, but it has been incredibly profound for me
Speaker:and I'm just so excited and fired up.
Speaker:And it's why I wanted to share this on the podcast because I think the fear of
Speaker:people questioning our integrity because of a choice that we make about our pricing
Speaker:or about our offers is actually getting in the way of us helping more people.
Speaker:We can get so in our heads about what's ethical and what isn't, when we really
Speaker:just need to make sure that like our onboarding processes are seamless and
Speaker:that we actually get our clients the results that we're promising and we have
Speaker:the receipts to back up the marketing.
Speaker:That's where I think that a lot of this like unethical finger pointing
Speaker:happens is people are selling something and they're really good at sales and
Speaker:marketing because like that's their job.
Speaker:They're selling something and on the backend, they're not delivering.
Speaker:I don't believe that it's because they want to scam you.
Speaker:I really think that folks are just not focusing on client results on the backend.
Speaker:When you grow so quickly, which is where I often see people calling coaches
Speaker:unethical when they've gotten big.
Speaker:It's most likely because the container that they have, doesn't have a variety
Speaker:of ways for different types of people to get the results that they promise.
Speaker:It feels so much more like neutral and productive to look
Speaker:at the industry and also look at our own offers from that place.
Speaker:From a place of like, how can I improve my program to get more people, more results?
Speaker:How can I improve my messaging and my marketing to get the right people
Speaker:in the doors, the right people who can get the right results?
Speaker:So I wanna talk about some common, unethical things in business that I
Speaker:think can actually get people results.
Speaker:I see a lot of like think pieces, conversations about just like blanket
Speaker:statements of like, X is unethical, Y is gamy, and I think there's
Speaker:nuance there that's worth exploring.
Speaker:So the first one is like $10k, $20k, $50k masterminds and group programs.
Speaker:Instead of debating about is it ethical to charge someone $50,000 for a group
Speaker:coaching program, I would so much rather have the conversation of, "does that
Speaker:program get $50,000 worth of results for the majority of their clients?"
Speaker:And I think that's where some of the resentment and some of the frustration
Speaker:comes is that on people's marketing and their sales pages, they have a select
Speaker:few clients that got results, but they don't overwhelmingly show that the
Speaker:majority of our clients get this result.
Speaker:And if we don't do that, then it's our mission, especially, you know, if
Speaker:you're charging that much, to really show and be hyper-focused on getting
Speaker:your clients more and more results.
Speaker:When I was first starting, I thought I would never, ever have a $10k, $15k I
Speaker:would ever join one of those programs.
Speaker:Now I'm in like three $15,000 masterminds, and I was really careful
Speaker:about joining those, and I only joined the programs that I saw that they had
Speaker:a very clear result that I wanted.
Speaker:So my first one-on-one coaching was when my coach Kirsten and her
Speaker:promise was like, I will help you make $300,000 on 30 hours a week.
Speaker:And I was like, "yes, that is what I want."
Speaker:It felt super clear and I could see that she got results for
Speaker:herself and also for her clients.
Speaker:I joined another $15k Mastermind that helps coaches have a hundred K launches.
Speaker:And I have friends that are in that mastermind that I
Speaker:have seen get that result.
Speaker:So I knew this thing gets results, not just because they're talking about it
Speaker:on the sales page, but because they have like walls of receipts with those results.
Speaker:And so I think that is really important as a consumer is to take a step back
Speaker:and not get swept up into a sales page.
Speaker:I'm not blaming or shaming anybody who has bought something because of really
Speaker:good emails or a countdown timer or a really fancy sales page, and you get in on
Speaker:the other side and you're like, oh, this is actually not what I wanted it to be,
Speaker:but I do think there is a balance of, if somebody's a really good marketer, you get
Speaker:to also be a really good consumer and we get to ask like, What are the receipts?
Speaker:Here's how I learn best.
Speaker:Am I gonna get results in this program?
Speaker:Like I don't do well on live calls.
Speaker:Do you have an asynchronous coaching component?
Speaker:Like being able to understand what you need to get the results that somebody
Speaker:promises is really helpful, 'cause I, I really do think that the majority
Speaker:of coaches, if they say, I can help you get $10k months, or I can help
Speaker:you have a $100k launch, they have got that result for other clients.
Speaker:Maybe I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Speaker:I'm like, okay, you've clearly done this for other people,
Speaker:so how can we work together to help me get this result as well?
Speaker:Coaches want you to win in their program.
Speaker:They don't want you to feel like you didn't get the results that they promised.
Speaker:And when I've started to untangle, like when I've stopped jumping to
Speaker:the conclusion of like, "This is an unethical person and they scammed
Speaker:me," and more coming in from it as an approach of like, "Hey, I need more
Speaker:support in this program than is offered.
Speaker:What can we do?"
Speaker:I find it's a much more productive conversation, both as a student and as
Speaker:a coach and as a business owner, right?
Speaker:When people have had issues with my programs, we have all had people who
Speaker:have had issues with our programs.
Speaker:The majority of people get great results and then there's a couple
Speaker:people who just are struggling.
Speaker:When people come to me and say, "Hey, this is what's really hard for me,
Speaker:here's what's happening in the program.
Speaker:This is my main pinpointed issue."
Speaker:I am so excited for that feedback because I'm like, "oh, great, here's
Speaker:how we can help you get results."
Speaker:Here's how you can be better in the program.
Speaker:Instead of emails where I get like, "You are terrible.
Speaker:This sucks.
Speaker:This was a scam.
Speaker:Like I'm issuing a chargeback."
Speaker:It doesn't get what either of us want, which is for you to have the
Speaker:results that you want from the program.
Speaker:For me, it feels much more empowering on the consumer side to not feel
Speaker:like I got got, if that makes sense.
Speaker:And really come from it from a more like neutral problem solving space.
Speaker:That is just my personal relationship to this.
Speaker:I don't want to like shame or victim blame anybody who feels like
Speaker:they truly got scammed by a coach.
Speaker:But being able to take out that emotion from it and look at it from more of like
Speaker:a troubleshooting perspective has been really helpful for me when I have been in
Speaker:programs that are a little tougher to get the results than I thought it would be.
Speaker:So that's that.
Speaker:Another common unethical thing that I see people talk about in
Speaker:business is countdown timers.
Speaker:So there was a whole movement about, is our countdown timers unethical?
Speaker:Should we get rid of countdown timers as a whole?
Speaker:Are they pressuring people?
Speaker:And those types of questions, I feel like can plague business owners who
Speaker:want to be good, who want to be ethical.
Speaker:It's like, "oh man, should I have a countdown timer on my sales page?
Speaker:Am I taking advantage of people?"
Speaker:And I feel like if you are worried about those things and just inherently you're
Speaker:not doing it for the wrong reasons.
Speaker:How I think about countdown timers is I think they're actually incredibly
Speaker:helpful to also help get clients' results and get them like off the fence.
Speaker:I have ADHD and I really like having that container to make a decision.
Speaker:I think countdown timers are a gift to our clients, and I really
Speaker:think that they can help you say, "Hey, you know, don't waffle.
Speaker:If it's a fit, join.
Speaker:If it's not, don't worry about it because on Friday the doors are closed and you
Speaker:don't have to think about it anymore."
Speaker:So there's just, there's some of these blanket things of like
Speaker:countdown timers, always unethical.
Speaker:$10k coaching programs, always unethical.
Speaker:There is a ton of nuance and instead of just like plaguing ourselves of
Speaker:like, "is this the right decision?"
Speaker:Just make the decision and know that if you get your clients'
Speaker:results, then it's all good.
Speaker:Another thing that people call unethical all the time is just growing and scaling.
Speaker:So people who are doubling or tripling the size of their group programs, their
Speaker:masterminds, their membership, calling it like a money grab instead of actually
Speaker:caring about the people on the other side.
Speaker:I truly don't believe that coaches who are growing their programs are doing
Speaker:it because they know that their clients are gonna get a worse result, but they
Speaker:don't care because they want the money.
Speaker:That's unethical.
Speaker:That feels scammy, but I just don't think people are operating from that place.
Speaker:I really believe that if you focus on your client results, that your group programs
Speaker:can get better as they get bigger.
Speaker:And if you're asking yourself before you launch, before you decide to scale
Speaker:your offer, if you ask yourself like, how do I get more clients, more results?
Speaker:The way that you scale your program is going to be different.
Speaker:It's going to look different.
Speaker:So if you're like, okay, I'm doubling the program, before I do that, before I
Speaker:open the doors let me look at my systems.
Speaker:Can my systems support a hundred more clients coming through the doors?
Speaker:Can how I currently offer the program can, can a hundred more people get results?
Speaker:Can this scale?
Speaker:And when you're looking at it from that lens, You start to come up with some
Speaker:very different, like creative solutions.
Speaker:So you might have live calls and you're like, cool, these live
Speaker:calls work for 10 people, but if there's a hundred people, these live
Speaker:calls are not gonna be scalable.
Speaker:How do I get more results in the program?
Speaker:We should offer asynchronous support ticketing system or on-demand
Speaker:copy reviews instead of live calls or in addition to live calls.
Speaker:Really thinking about what are the different ways this container can
Speaker:get more clients, more results.
Speaker:When we think about it that way.
Speaker:Again, it's a really subtle shift from, "am I good?
Speaker:Will people like me?
Speaker:Is it, is it bad for me to want to grow my program?
Speaker:Will people, will people hate me because they feel like I'm growing too fast
Speaker:and they're losing their connection to me," instead of thinking about those
Speaker:things and worrying about those things.
Speaker:As long as you're like, "Nope.
Speaker:Actually the things that we're doing, I'm excited because it means
Speaker:that more people are gonna get more results and it doesn't sacrifice your
Speaker:other client's results along the way.
Speaker:Then that's really exciting that you get to grow.
Speaker:And that's really what we focus on in my business is helping our clients get
Speaker:their clients more results using systems.
Speaker:So creating scalable, searchable q and a call databases.
Speaker:So your replays are actually robust and searchable so your
Speaker:replays don't just gather dust.
Speaker:Making sure that your onboarding is super scalable and that you're reign
Speaker:process is, is automated and you have these automated engagement check-ins
Speaker:so Your people feel like they're still taken care of, even if you grow.
Speaker:So when you're thinking about growing, growing is not bad.
Speaker:Scaling is not unethical.
Speaker:Scaling is not scammy.
Speaker:As long as you're looking at it through the lens of like, how can I
Speaker:get even more clients, more results?
Speaker:That's all you need.
Speaker:I feel like it's not that deep.
Speaker:There's no need to question our like moral compass all of the time in business.
Speaker:Just shore up your systems, make sure you get client results and you will be good.
Speaker:So now that I am way less focused on being an ethical coach and more focused
Speaker:on getting my client results, I wanted to talk about some of the things that
Speaker:I am fixing now that I caught myself doing because I was worried about
Speaker:being well liked and being ethical.
Speaker:The first thing that I have done, which I regret, is like I have
Speaker:watered down my messaging like crazy.
Speaker:I was so afraid that if I made a bold claim in my email without making a
Speaker:million different caveats, that I would be excluding people or not including people
Speaker:with experiences or their narratives and I just was like always like devil's
Speaker:advocating myself in my own emails because I wanted people to know, "yes, I know this
Speaker:might not be everybody in experience, but like, here's, here's what works for me."
Speaker:And I was being the devil's advocate in my own emails instead of just like staking
Speaker:my thought leadership into the ground.
Speaker:So an example of that is I was really afraid to say, "Airtable is a requirement
Speaker:for growing your group offer, 'cause I was like, "well, is it though?"
Speaker:And if somebody really likes notion, like "I guess like do what works for you.
Speaker:Of course.
Speaker:Do what works for you.
Speaker:But here's what I believe."
Speaker:But that just watered down my messaging and doesn't help people.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:If they're on your list, people are allowed to disagree with you and
Speaker:that doesn't make you unethical.
Speaker:Having strong opinions doesn't make you an unethical coach, and I
Speaker:think that has been a really huge distinction for me is like I say
Speaker:things now, I say, I am Systems Famous.
Speaker:I have the best system of the industry.
Speaker:Airtable is a requirement for growing your group offer, and people
Speaker:might disagree with me and that is okay, but for so long I was afraid
Speaker:of people disagreeing with me.
Speaker:I made a thread about this.
Speaker:I made a thread about I'm tired of being worried about being unethical,
Speaker:and people were like mad and I was like, "wow, I haven't had people
Speaker:mad at me before on the internet."
Speaker:This is kind of exciting 'cause it's an actual point of view.
Speaker:And so that's a huge thing that I'm shifting now is I'm not watering
Speaker:down my messaging anymore and I'm just really focusing on my thoughts
Speaker:and my opinions about this are going to help clients get more results.
Speaker:Another thing I did because I was worried about being ethical and being
Speaker:liked was just putting so much value into my program and I'm using like
Speaker:value in heavy air quotes by just like shoving more shit in adding more
Speaker:lessons, which more does not always mean better, but it was very much like, how
Speaker:can I charge $2,000 for five lessons?
Speaker:I need 15 lessons and it needs to be a one-stop shop for everything because
Speaker:it is unethical for me to charge that much money for such few lessons.
Speaker:And actually what I'm focusing on now is of course results.
Speaker:It is the results inside of this program a $2,000, $2,500 result.
Speaker:If the answer is yes.
Speaker:How do I get them the results as quickly as possible?
Speaker:And so that means I'm like slashing a lot of the content in my program because
Speaker:it doesn't help them get the result.
Speaker:It was just like extra like fluff and bonuses and more Airtable
Speaker:templates when like actually what they need is a very specific results
Speaker:thing in and out and on their way.
Speaker:Another thing that I did because I was worried about being ethical, is just
Speaker:like keeping my prices pretty low.
Speaker:I think a lot of us deal with that of is it ethical to charge X, Y, Z?
Speaker:I'm not thinking about that anymore.
Speaker:I'm like, does this result get X amount of value if it does charge it?
Speaker:So like, I've got a $2,500 program, I've got a S10k offer.
Speaker:I'm like, yep, I see how these programs get those results.
Speaker:And if I don't see that, I am working every day to make sure that my clients
Speaker:get those results so I can shore up that so I can have the receipts.
Speaker:I cannot tell you how much more excited I am to hop into my programs,
Speaker:to edit my programs, to update them, to ask my clients about the results
Speaker:because I'm coming from a place of service and a place of client results
Speaker:focused instead of being well-liked and instead of being ethical.
Speaker:So if you have been plagued by these decisions of, "does
Speaker:this make me a good coach?
Speaker:Is this a scam?"
Speaker:Please practice putting on the thought of, "will this help
Speaker:my clients get more results?
Speaker:How can I get my clients more results?"
Speaker:Wake up and work through your day with those questions instead of whether
Speaker:you're unethical or not, and see how that changes your decision making process.
Speaker:I've been able to make more decisions faster.
Speaker:I feel like when people come at me with attacks on my character,
Speaker:honestly, it happens, I'm able to take a step back and really see like,
Speaker:what are they actually trying to say?
Speaker:Because I know my self-worth, and I know that I try to run my business and my life
Speaker:with integrity, and sometimes the systems mistakes that I make or an onboarding
Speaker:issue or the way that I phrased something in a lesson might just need some tweaking.
Speaker:And that's just way more empowering than totally questioning who I am as a person.
Speaker:So, If this was helpful for you, I would absolutely love to know.
Speaker:If you're watching the podcast, feel free to dmm me on Instagram at Systems Over
Speaker:Stress and just let me know your thoughts.
Speaker:And if you are watching on YouTube, go ahead and comment
Speaker:below anything you've got and we will see you in the next episode.
Speaker:If you are committed to getting your client's results and creating
Speaker:the go-to coaching program in your industry, we want you to join us.
Speaker:Click that subscribe button on your favorite podcast app or YouTube
Speaker:to see all the system strategies and behind the scenes stories of
Speaker:what it takes to create the most impactful coaching program you can.
