In this week's episode, Lucy Howell comes on to talk to me about Pinterest and how it can work for your podcast.

Lucy busts the misconception that Pinterest is a social platform - SPOILER it's not!

How Pinterest works in comparison to other social media platforms, tips on how you can create pins from your podcast and her top piece of advice!

I found it very interesting to find out the shelf life of pins compared to Instagram/Facebook posts and Lucy's extremely important tip of not using the same link in each pin so you don't get shadowbanned!

You can find out more about Lucy on her website

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Lucy Howell: 00:00:00

Kind of like why it's specifically good for podcasts?

Lucy Howell: 00:00:04

Yeah, so I think one of the misconceptions for Pinterest, I've been using Pinterest

Rachael Botfield: 00:00:08

like a lot of people for probably since it first started.

Rachael Botfield: 00:00:12

A lot of people are under the huge misconception that Pinterest

Rachael Botfield: 00:00:16

is a social media platform.

Rachael Botfield: 00:00:30

Give you real insight into what it's like having your own podcast.

Rachael Botfield: 00:00:44

Hi, and welcome to this week's episode.

Rachael Botfield: 00:00:47

Today I have the lovely Lucy Howell from Hal Virtual with me.

Rachael Botfield: 00:00:51

How are you?

Lucy Howell: 00:00:53

Hello, Rachel.

Lucy Howell: 00:00:53

I'm fine, thank you.

Lucy Howell: 00:00:54

Thank you for having me on,

Lucy Howell: 00:00:56

. Rachael Botfield: Oh, I'm excited

Lucy Howell: 00:00:58

talk about Pinterest and podcasts.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:02

So just, um, tell us a little bit about yourself and your business first off.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:05

Oh,

Lucy Howell: 00:01:06

okay.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:06

So yeah, I've been, uh, well a general VA for about three years now.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:11

Um, but have recently rebranded and moved into podcast and Pinterest management.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:17

Cause I think the two pair really well.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:20

And I'm a mum.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:22

My little boy is two and a half years old.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:24

Um, currently at the moment struggling with tonsillitis.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:27

So . Um, but yes, I've um, been doing this now for, for, yeah, 3, 3, 4

Lucy Howell: 00:01:33

years now, coming up to four years.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:35

So, yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:36

Um, I've specialized in Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:38

Um, A while ago.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:40

Um, and then recently, more recently gone into podcast management.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:43

Cause like I say, I think the two combine really well together.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:47

And I think if you've got a podcast, it should be on interest.

Lucy Howell: 00:01:50

It's a, it's a fantastic way to advertise the business and,

Lucy Howell: 00:01:53

and what you're trying to say.

Rachael Botfield: 00:01:55

Yeah, like ever since I think, I'm not sure

Rachael Botfield: 00:01:57

how we came across each other.

Rachael Botfield: 00:01:58

I mean probably LinkedIn, I think.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:00

I think it was LinkedIn.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:01

Yeah.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:02

and we first spoke and we spoke about podcast and Pinterest and it

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:07

is something I have to admit at the time of recording in November and this

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:12

episode is dues come out in January.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:13

I haven't done anything with Pinterest, but it has been the

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:16

one little thing that's been like niggling at me ever since I met you.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:19

Been like Anna kept hearing other people talking about p.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:22

And the bene, especially with the benefits to podcasting.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:25

One of my clients, Hannah and Nicole, from showing at Solo, they do pins

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:29

and things for theirs as well.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:30

So she's already talked about like she does like a, on a mass producer some more.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:34

So I thought it'd be best first to just have a little talk about

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:37

like what Pinterest actually is.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:39

Cause I think there's some, a few misconceptions about

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:41

what Pinterest actually is.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:42

It's like, and then.

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:44

Kind of like why it's specifically good for

Rachael Botfield: 00:02:47

podcasts?

Lucy Howell: 00:02:48

Yeah, so

Lucy Howell: 00:02:49

I think one of the misconceptions for Pinterest, I've been using

Lucy Howell: 00:02:52

Pinterest like a lot of people for probably since it first started.

Lucy Howell: 00:02:56

A lot of people are under the huge misconception that Pinterest

Lucy Howell: 00:03:00

is a social media platform.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:02

And whilst it is a social platform on media, , yes.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:09

It isn't a social media platform.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:11

Um, it is a search engine.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:13

It's exactly the same as Google.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:15

It's just a more visual search engine.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:17

It works exactly the same way with seo.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:20

. And unlike LinkedIn and Instagram predominantly, and Facebook,

Lucy Howell: 00:03:24

I think they're, they're filtering that out a little bit.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:26

Rather than using hashtags to find things.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:29

Pinterest relies on keywords.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:30

That's how you enhance your searchability and your visibility on Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:35

Um, but there are so many misconceptions that, you know.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:39

. It's, it's all, you know, I like this flower pot, or I like this

Lucy Howell: 00:03:42

wedding dress, and I'll pin it, you know, and that, that's it.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:45

And that's all everyone's hairstyles dress.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:47

I'll do it for hairstyles.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:48

Exactly.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:49

You know, and whilst we're all guilty of it, which is what I use it for,

Lucy Howell: 00:03:52

you know, I think, oh, I like that.

Lucy Howell: 00:03:54

Um, it's, as far as marketing goes, it's actually probably one of the

Lucy Howell: 00:03:58

stronger platforms to market a business or a service or a product on.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:03

Um, the demographics for Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:08

In terms of that.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:09

With Instagram, for example, when you go onto Instagram, they like

Lucy Howell: 00:04:13

to keep you in that platform.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:15

So when you click on something, that's why you can't get clickable

Lucy Howell: 00:04:17

links and things like that.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:19

You have to physically copy it and go to Chrome and then open

Lucy Howell: 00:04:22

a new page to get to someone's.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:24

Page in, uh, Pinterest actually like you to go off their platform.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:29

They, they encourage that and that's why you can click on a pin

Lucy Howell: 00:04:33

and it will take you directly to someone's funnel or website or

Lucy Howell: 00:04:37

marketing campaign that they've got.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:40

That's how Pinterest works.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:41

They like you to come off the platform to go and shop and buy, and

Lucy Howell: 00:04:45

the majority of people that are on Pinterest are on there to buy a product.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:50

I think.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:50

Count with something like 80% of people are on Pinterest to buy a

Lucy Howell: 00:04:56

product, not to browse a product.

Lucy Howell: 00:04:58

Um, and unlike with Instagram, Where you are unlikely to be found unless

Lucy Howell: 00:05:05

you have got a certain amount of followers or a certain amount of,

Lucy Howell: 00:05:09

you know, posts and things like that.

Lucy Howell: 00:05:11

Unless you are kind of, you know, one of the, the, the major players on Instagram,

Lucy Howell: 00:05:16

you're not going to, you're just gonna get lost in the noise somewhere.

Lucy Howell: 00:05:19

So, little businesses, small businesses don't really stand a chance on

Lucy Howell: 00:05:24

Instagram to, to get noticed and get people buying their products.

Lucy Howell: 00:05:28

Pinterest, like I say, we've, we've carefully planned keywords and, and

Lucy Howell: 00:05:33

doing your, um, profile correctly and putting the right keywords in.

Lucy Howell: 00:05:38

You could go viral without having any single followers,

Lucy Howell: 00:05:42

any, any history of Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:05:45

You could open a Pinterest account.

Lucy Howell: 00:05:46

Have a really good.

Lucy Howell: 00:05:48

Pinterest manager, um, that will, you know, show you where to put your keywords

Lucy Howell: 00:05:53

and, and enhance your profile properly.

Lucy Howell: 00:05:56

And with one really good pin, that pin could go viral in,

Lucy Howell: 00:06:00

in a certain amount of time.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:02

You know, it's not the same as Instagram or Pin uh, Facebook.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:07

It just doesn't work that way.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:09

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:09

. Um, and I, I always say to people, if they don't sort of believe me about

Lucy Howell: 00:06:13

it being a search engine, I'll give you a little test, is to go onto.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:18

Google, go on Google now and try and find, uh, just type in

Lucy Howell: 00:06:21

something like white wedding dress and in the images I can guarantee.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:27

Those images will have come from Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:30

The, the, the code at the bottom will be from www.pinterest.code.uk.com.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:35

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:36

, depending where you are in the world.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:38

And if you click on that, it will take you to Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:40

It'll take you to the person's platform, and then you can go and buy that

Lucy Howell: 00:06:42

product, that work, that white wedding dress that you've been looking for.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:46

That's how Pinterest works.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:47

But you won't find something the same from Instagram, for example.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:50

It just doesn't pull through to Google.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:53

. Rachael Botfield: No.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:53

And uh, that's one thing that is quite frustrating.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:57

Those kind of platforms.

Lucy Howell: 00:06:58

I mean, LinkedIn, even though you can put links in the, um, in the body of your

Lucy Howell: 00:07:03

posts, like you can't do on Instagram that highlight, they, they don't favor

Lucy Howell: 00:07:08

those links and you've gotta put 'em a certain way or put 'em in the comments

Lucy Howell: 00:07:11

or whatever the, whatever the latest algorithm hack is or whatever for that is.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:15

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:16

Which is very confusing and makes it difficult to schedule your posts

Lucy Howell: 00:07:20

and all those types of things.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:21

So yeah, I like the fact.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:24

Is encouraging you to, you can go create the pin and someone can click on it

Lucy Howell: 00:07:31

directly and take it to whatever the piece of content you want it to take it to.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:34

Video, episode, blog, whatever that is.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:38

I really like that's.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:39

seems really powerful.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:41

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:41

And with podcasting, for example, you know, I, I, I use podcast as kind of

Lucy Howell: 00:07:48

your, your main source of like, for people that are struggling with content User

Lucy Howell: 00:07:52

podcast as your main piece of content and everything else can funnel off it.

Lucy Howell: 00:07:57

Um, so, you know, you start your podcast, you do your podcast episode,

Lucy Howell: 00:08:01

um, and then you could transcribe it and oh, you've got a blog.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:06

You can take little clips out of that transcription and oh, you've got your

Lucy Howell: 00:08:09

social captions for media, you know, for Facebook and Instagram and all of that.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:13

You can pull things off it.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:14

You can do an audiogram, audiograms, you can do on, um, Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:19

So you could actually have a pin with your audiogram on there.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:23

Linking directly to Apple or Spotify or wherever your podcast is or you know,

Lucy Howell: 00:08:30

or directly back to your website if you've got it embedded on your website.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:33

And then obviously once people are on your website, they can then

Lucy Howell: 00:08:36

click into your email marketing and follow you and subscribe that way.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:40

So it's so powerful.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:42

It's Pinterest is is amazing and I think.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:46

. Like I say, if you haven't got Pinterest for your business, I think everyone

Lucy Howell: 00:08:49

needs it, and especially podcasters.

Lucy Howell: 00:08:51

Like I say, it works really well for advertising your podcast, um, and

Lucy Howell: 00:08:55

ultimately getting you the results that you wanted from your podcast, if

Lucy Howell: 00:08:59

that's, you know, advertising a service or a product or something along those

Lucy Howell: 00:09:03

lines.

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:04

Yeah, so time is a factor is the main reason why I

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:09

haven't like, decided to invest or, or.

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:14

, you know, create that to, to go into Pinterest.

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:16

Yeah.

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:17

Because, you know, thinking about it's another thing to do to implement into,

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:23

um, the process that I've got into.

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:25

I mean, I break down my podcast is my main piece of content, and then I, and I use

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:30

it in that way to streamline my marketing.

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:32

Yeah.

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:32

Um, how much kind of extra time is it quite easy to create the pins?

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:38

Um, off of, you know, once you.

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:41

Your social media content or whatever, is it quite easy to create those pins

Rachael Botfield: 00:09:45

off of that and batch them perhaps as.

Lucy Howell: 00:09:48

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:09:49

So there is a, a platform that's sort of specifically designed for

Lucy Howell: 00:09:53

pininterest, for scheduling pins.

Lucy Howell: 00:09:54

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:09:55

, which is called Tailwind.

Lucy Howell: 00:09:56

Um, oh, okay.

Lucy Howell: 00:09:57

Yeah, I've heard of that.

Lucy Howell: 00:09:58

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:09:58

And Tailwind is fantastic because Pininterest, they like

Lucy Howell: 00:10:02

you to produce new content.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:04

That's what they, rather than re-pinning someone else's content, right.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:09

They prefer you to put out new content.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:11

That's the content that they're pushing at the moment.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:13

That's their algorithm.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:16

whilst you could, you could have a pin saying something along the lines

Lucy Howell: 00:10:21

of, um, you know, top 10 reasons.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:23

Listen to my podcast.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:24

And then that could be your, your first pin.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:26

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:27

, a brand new pin could be 10 reasons why you should listen to my podcast.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:33

Another pin could just be changing the colors on that top 10 reasons

Lucy Howell: 00:10:37

to listen to my podcast or, so you've suddenly got three pins.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:41

Pretty much the same title, but they're slightly different.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:45

So it's not that time consuming to change the pins.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:48

Um, and they recommend sort of three to five pins per day.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:53

That's, which is, it sounds, it sounds a lot, mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:10:56

, but when you are just tweaking, you know, a color or you're just

Lucy Howell: 00:10:59

changing one little image on it, you've suddenly got a brand new pin.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:02

So it's not that time consuming.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:04

Okay.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:05

Tailwind, um, is fantastic because what you do with Tailwind is you put

Lucy Howell: 00:11:10

in your title, your call to action, to what you want people to do.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:15

Do you want them to click the link?

Lucy Howell: 00:11:16

Do you want them to click the pin?

Lucy Howell: 00:11:17

You want them to follow or subscribe?

Lucy Howell: 00:11:20

You put in your title of your thing, so top 10 Reasons to listen

Lucy Howell: 00:11:22

to my podcast and it will create.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:26

Multiple versions of different pins based on different colors.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:29

It will design different pins for you.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:33

So all you need to do then is go, oh, I like that one.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:35

I like that one, and I like that one, and I like that one, and I like that one.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:38

So you've got five pins all of a sudden, and then you can just schedule those

Lucy Howell: 00:11:41

five pins so you can do it on tailwind.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:45

within a matter of seconds, or you can do it manually yourself.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:48

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:49

, it's obviously more time consuming.

Lucy Howell: 00:11:50

You do it in IT manually version, but Tailwind is brilliant.

Rachael Botfield: 00:11:53

Is that on the free version or is it a paid

Lucy Howell: 00:11:55

version?

Lucy Howell: 00:11:57

So free version you get, I think it's something along

Lucy Howell: 00:12:00

the lines of you get up to.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:02

Up to a hundred pins on the free version.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:05

That's like per month, which sounds a lot, but when you're being asked

Lucy Howell: 00:12:10

to do five pins a day or more to kind of make it noticeable, that

Lucy Howell: 00:12:15

doesn't really tend to go that far.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:17

Um, they may have even even reduced it down to 50 now.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:20

I think maybe actually, yeah, I think it might even be 50.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:23

So, Generally more on the paid version that you're gonna get

Lucy Howell: 00:12:27

the most benefit out of Tailwind.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:29

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:30

. But as I say, you could do, you know, the free version

Lucy Howell: 00:12:33

and then do the rest manually.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:35

Um, yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:36

So depending on the two.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:38

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:38

. Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:38

So you combine, you know, do a week's worth of your free version on Tailwind

Lucy Howell: 00:12:43

and then do another three weeks on, on your mul, you know, What are my words?

Lucy Howell: 00:12:51

on your manual version.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:52

That's the word I'm looking for.

Lucy Howell: 00:12:53

Yeah.

Rachael Botfield: 00:12:54

Are there any other schedulers that schedule to

Rachael Botfield: 00:12:56

Pinterest or is it just tailwinds?

Lucy Howell: 00:12:58

So most, yeah, so most do, um, I, I use Buffer, um, for

Lucy Howell: 00:13:03

like my general social media just because I, I, I, I think Hootsuite

Lucy Howell: 00:13:07

is, uh, as, as great as Hootsuite is.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:10

It's just ridiculously.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:12

Buffer.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:12

I love, it's easy.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:14

You, you know, it syncs really well with what I wanted to do.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:17

The only thing with other platforms like Buffer and Hootsuite, and I think there's

Lucy Howell: 00:13:22

another one called Crowdfire, and then you've got Metrical and things like that.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:27

All of them are great, but sometimes they have problems with adding in the

Lucy Howell: 00:13:32

sort of like the clickable pin link.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:35

So with Buffer for example, you can put your header and your title and it'll

Lucy Howell: 00:13:42

give you what do you want the pin to do.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:44

But it doesn't always generally tend to work.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:47

I found a lot of my pins that I've scheduled, they're not actually going

Lucy Howell: 00:13:50

to the link that I want them to.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:52

Um, and that's frustrating, isn't it?

Lucy Howell: 00:13:54

Which is annoying.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:55

Rely on it.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:56

, but Pinterest have got their own schedule a version.

Lucy Howell: 00:13:59

Um, so you can actually directly schedule on Pinterest and you

Lucy Howell: 00:14:04

can batch the pins on Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:07

Okay.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:07

So that's what I do.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:08

So I will go in, um, I'll create a pim.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:12

, drop it into one and then just do my, my title and everything and my keywords, and

Lucy Howell: 00:14:18

then I'll just click plus plus, plus plus and I've got five then, and I, I just drop

Lucy Howell: 00:14:22

them in then straight away and that's it.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:24

And they're done.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:25

Um, so it's, I, I actually prefer just doing it directly on

Lucy Howell: 00:14:28

interest and forgetting the other scheduler platforms, but mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:31

, um, tailwind or Pinterest is my version of, of doing.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:36

. Rachael Botfield: Yeah, I, I,

Lucy Howell: 00:14:38

I've talked about, I've had episodes on this podcast talking about batching.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:42

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:42

Um, depending on what works for you.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:45

Um, my friends Hannah and Nicole, they do six months worth of content in one go.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:50

They actually had a full circle content challenge in October,

Lucy Howell: 00:14:54

and I went to the masterclass.

Lucy Howell: 00:14:58

, I knew they batched their content.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:00

They always have some wonderful brand photos as well, and they're

Lucy Howell: 00:15:03

not in the same province in calendar, so they meet up like every six

Lucy Howell: 00:15:06

months and kind of do their stuff.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:07

But it's amazing how much stuff they get out and manage to create from.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:12

The podcast episode.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:13

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:14

You like talking about repurposing, like, you know, you, you, you, it's,

Lucy Howell: 00:15:17

it was amazing, absolutely brilliant.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:19

Um, what they do with it, and I think she might batch all of her

Lucy Howell: 00:15:22

pins as well and, and do that.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:24

It just depends on what works for you and your schedule when it

Lucy Howell: 00:15:27

comes to batching and trying to do.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:29

But I know that when I try to do more on a four weekly basis, but recently

Lucy Howell: 00:15:35

it's been like eking out and then I find myself, I'm still doing creating.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:42

because I haven't left myself enough time or something's come up,

Lucy Howell: 00:15:45

you know, all, all those things.

Lucy Howell: 00:15:46

And, and I'm thinking perhaps maybe some things like your evergreen content,

Lucy Howell: 00:15:51

you know, have, like perhaps for pins and things, if you can just get into

Lucy Howell: 00:15:56

a flow and allocate this much time, you can do the, you know, create all

Lucy Howell: 00:16:00

these pins that can be great for your podcast or whatever it is that you are.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:05

For your business as well as, um, your podcast.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:08

So when you started doing it, what kind of, um, I'm just thinking about the

Lucy Howell: 00:16:14

engagement that you get on, on the pins.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:17

So compared to the other social media, Platforms that you do,

Lucy Howell: 00:16:21

do you get just like so much

Lucy Howell: 00:16:23

more on that?

Lucy Howell: 00:16:24

Yeah, so I'll be completely honest.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:25

My, my own Pinterest, if anyone goes on my own, Pinterest is terrible.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:28

It's dire cause I just haven't got the time to do my own Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:31

I very occasionally schedule stuff onto Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:34

It's, um, but for, yeah, the, I think the other thing with

Lucy Howell: 00:16:39

Pinterest as well, um, compared to say Instagram, I say Instagram,

Lucy Howell: 00:16:44

um, the half life getting technic.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:47

Um, of a pin now is so much longer.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:51

It's longer lasting than it is on Instagram, so you can.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:55

. Instagram is called Instagram for a reason.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:56

It's instant.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:58

That's what it means.

Lucy Howell: 00:16:58

So any engagement you get is kind of an instant thing.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:02

And then once that kind of initial half life of your Instagram

Lucy Howell: 00:17:06

post has gone, that's it.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:08

It'll never get found again on Instagram.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:09

It won't get re-brought up until someone reposts it or shares

Lucy Howell: 00:17:12

it or, or along those lines.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:15

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:16

, Pinterest is a slightly slower burner for a platform, so it can take on average.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:20

Three months for you to see good results.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:23

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:23

for it to measure how well you're doing on Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:26

So we always, I always say to clients, look, you need to give

Lucy Howell: 00:17:29

me three months with Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:31

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:32

to be able to see the results of it.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:33

Don't go checking it tomorrow, you probably won't get any views.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:36

They'll probably be like three people on there and then three

Lucy Howell: 00:17:39

months later it'll be, you know, up in the hundreds of thousands.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:42

Or it'll be even, you know, some people have got millions of viewers

Lucy Howell: 00:17:45

and millions of followers on Pinterest.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:48

The pins last a lot longer on pin on Pinterest than they do on Instagram.

Lucy Howell: 00:17:54

So when you are cycling content and podcasts and things like that,

Lucy Howell: 00:17:59

we always, I always say to people, you know, if you've got like a

Lucy Howell: 00:18:02

Christmas offer, for example, you want to start marketing it in around.

Lucy Howell: 00:18:07

August, you wanna start putting your Christmas pins, your Christmas products,

Lucy Howell: 00:18:12

everything that you're gonna do for Christmas out in August on Pininterest so

Lucy Howell: 00:18:16

that by the time Christmas comes up and people are searching Christmas gifts for

Lucy Howell: 00:18:20

my husband, or Christmas gifts for mom and things like that, your pins have already

Lucy Howell: 00:18:25

had that time to, to get that traction and get that growth so that they're

Lucy Howell: 00:18:28

already right on the top of the platform.

Lucy Howell: 00:18:30

They're already right.

Lucy Howell: 00:18:32

. Rachael Botfield: Yeah,

Lucy Howell: 00:18:33

So it's had time for people to view it and to get the, cause.

Lucy Howell: 00:18:37

I mean, when I look at some pins and things, I don't know

Lucy Howell: 00:18:40

how recent some of them are.

Lucy Howell: 00:18:41

And when I look back, I like looking for my hairstyles, you know,

Lucy Howell: 00:18:44

just to use that as an example.

Lucy Howell: 00:18:46

You know, some of them I've seen before and they come up multiple times.

Lucy Howell: 00:18:49

So with that, like you're saying with Instagram and like, like you say,

Lucy Howell: 00:18:53

once you post it, it's, it's out in the ether and that it's, it's less

Lucy Howell: 00:18:57

likely to be, you know, Back up again.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:02

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:02

Whereas, like you say, the longevity with Pinterest, with

Lucy Howell: 00:19:05

the pins is much, it's much more.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:08

Exactly, so I've just, I've just double checked

Lucy Howell: 00:19:11

the facts on this, right?

Lucy Howell: 00:19:12

So the halflife of a, a Pinterest pin is three and a half months.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:16

So I was right in, in terms of the three and a half months.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:19

It's three and a half months.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:20

So a pin will last on Pinterest in the, in the visibility for it to be

Lucy Howell: 00:19:25

found for three and a half months.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:27

Now, to put that into perspective for people that are

Lucy Howell: 00:19:30

on other platforms, a tweet.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:33

is only, it'll only last for 24 minutes.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:36

So any engagement you get is 24 minutes.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:39

That's it.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:40

And then it'll die.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:41

It'll go and no one will see it again.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:43

You know, unless anyone reposts that exact same pin.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:47

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:47

, um, same tweet, that's it.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:49

The halflife of a Facebook post is 90 minutes, so it's slightly longer than.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:54

Twitter, but not much longer.

Lucy Howell: 00:19:55

So an hour and a half and a Facebook post, any engagement you get, that's

Lucy Howell: 00:19:58

the maximum engagement you're gonna get.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:01

Um, so in concept it's one, a Pinterest pin is 1,680 times

Lucy Howell: 00:20:07

longer than a Facebook post.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:09

Um, so if you've got content and you've got a product, it needs to be on Pinterest

Lucy Howell: 00:20:14

because it's gonna last so much longer on Pinterest than it is anywhere else.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:18

Um, which is why, again, it goes back to the thing of it's not a social media.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:23

. Rachael Botfield: Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:24

So also I'm thinking, so I've got, you know, at least 30 odd episodes in the

Lucy Howell: 00:20:30

bank, potentially more when this airs.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:33

So, and I've created audiograms for those and I've got, I've created social

Lucy Howell: 00:20:37

media posts and things like that.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:39

So Would you recommend as a starting point, Creating pins, using all of

Lucy Howell: 00:20:45

like repurposing the old content.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:47

Definitely not say old, but you know, starting there.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:51

Yep.

Lucy Howell: 00:20:51

And then kind of creating stuff with the new, cuz a lot of this

Lucy Howell: 00:20:55

information and it's easy to forget, and I talk about this a lot, that

Lucy Howell: 00:20:58

it's still relevant, A lot of it is still very relevant to your audience.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:02

So if.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:03

, you know, just, just discovering my podcast.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:04

Now they've got all these other episodes that could be helping them.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:08

So that would probably be a really great place to start is looking at

Lucy Howell: 00:21:11

what content you've already created.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:13

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:14

And creating the pin.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:15

Is that what you kind of recommend if someone's kind of starting out on

Lucy Howell: 00:21:18

Pinterest?

Lucy Howell: 00:21:18

Definitely.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:19

And, and the, the.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:21

The three to five pins per day, that sounds terrifying, but really, say for

Lucy Howell: 00:21:27

example, for you, so you could put one pin with a direct link to the, the,

Lucy Howell: 00:21:32

the podcast itself, but then you could do another pin off the back of that.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:36

I dunno, obviously how your kind of setup is for your content and

Lucy Howell: 00:21:40

how you, but you say you use.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:41

Podcast is your pillar for your content.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:43

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:44

. So you could do one pin for your podcast, so the direct link to Apple

Lucy Howell: 00:21:48

or Spotify volume, wherever it is.

Lucy Howell: 00:21:50

If you are pulling that information and you've got a blog to that same

Lucy Howell: 00:21:55

podcast, do a pin to the blog, you know, do, and then you can do an audiogram.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:00

So you've got three pins already off the back of one podcast episode.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:06

Um, and then you could just do two others.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:10

I dunno where else you'd be, your other posts go to.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:12

But if you've got a, you know, a marketing or a, a offer or anything

Lucy Howell: 00:22:17

like that that you've got, there's another pin that you can do.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:20

So you can say, you know, listen to my podcast, grab this here, you know,

Lucy Howell: 00:22:24

or grab my top 10 reasons for doing a podcast, or whatever your promo is.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:30

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:30

. So you want to kind.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:32

What I tend to tell people is not to post the same link.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:35

So for five pieces of content, you don't wanna be posting the same link.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:41

So you don't want to be saying, you know, you've got your five different

Lucy Howell: 00:22:44

pins, but each of those pins are going to exactly the same place,

Lucy Howell: 00:22:49

like your website, for example.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:50

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:51

. Um, because what will happen is you can actually get kind.

Lucy Howell: 00:22:55

Essentially kind of like shadow band on Pinterest if you keep

Lucy Howell: 00:22:57

repurposing the same link.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:00

So what you wanna do is see, you want to, cause they kind of, they don't like that,

Lucy Howell: 00:23:04

they like you to go to different places.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:06

So with one podcast episode, do one for your website, one for your blog.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:13

It's, it's still on your website?

Lucy Howell: 00:23:15

I, I would assume, probably, but different.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:17

But it's taking, it's different linking, right?

Lucy Howell: 00:23:19

Slightly different

Rachael Botfield: 00:23:20

link.

Rachael Botfield: 00:23:20

So that's okay then as long, even if, cause I've got, um, Yeah, my podcast is

Rachael Botfield: 00:23:25

integrated into my website and, but it's, if you click on each individual episode,

Rachael Botfield: 00:23:30

it's got a different kind of URL link.

Rachael Botfield: 00:23:32

Yeah, exactly.

Rachael Botfield: 00:23:32

So that would, would be okay.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:33

That would be fine.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:34

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:35

Okay.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:35

And it's not, you're not gonna get, you know, automatically shut Aand if

Lucy Howell: 00:23:38

you've got one podcast episode and you do post the same link because

Lucy Howell: 00:23:41

they all go to the same place.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:43

It's only if you are every single day.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:46

For example, like a lot of, uh, service providers, like mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:52

you know, like us for example, that don't have a physical product to sell.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:55

We're selling.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:56

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:56

a service.

Lucy Howell: 00:23:57

Um, obviously if you've got a shop and you've got products, then

Lucy Howell: 00:24:01

you're gonna have a different link.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:02

You're gonna have different shoes.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:03

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:03

Handbag, dresses, you know, everything that you can advertise.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:06

But for us it's a bit more difficult.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:08

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:08

So if.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:09

A lot of service providers will, all of their content is on their website, so

Lucy Howell: 00:24:13

their, their blog is on their website.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:15

Their offers come off their website, you know, and it does make it difficult to

Lucy Howell: 00:24:19

find different links, but it's, you're not gonna get shadow banned straight away.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:24

It's only if you are continue.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:26

Constantly doing it.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:27

And you are only posting to, you know how virtual.code.you go how

Lucy Howell: 00:24:31

virtual.code.you go, how you know?

Lucy Howell: 00:24:33

And that's it.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:34

And that's the only link you ever do.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:36

What you wanna do is mix it up a little bit.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:38

You know, take someone to your blog, take someone to your homepage, take

Lucy Howell: 00:24:42

someone to your link, to your account.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:43

If you've got it , you know, take someone to your email marketing to

Lucy Howell: 00:24:48

sign up over there and yeah, and do it.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:51

Just mix it up a little bit.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:52

That's all.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:53

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:54

stops you from getting, yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:24:55

Shouted out by Pinterest pin, you know, p chest prison

Lucy Howell: 00:25:00

. Rachael Botfield: So what would be

Lucy Howell: 00:25:04

podcast wanting to start with Pinterest?

Lucy Howell: 00:25:06

What would be your kind of like top piece of device or top tip?

Lucy Howell: 00:25:09

So I would say top tip on P.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:15

. Don't be frightened of it.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:17

That's the main thing.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:18

I think a lot of, like I say, a lot of people kind of think because they

Lucy Howell: 00:25:21

don't know a lot about the platform and they don't understand how it works.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:25

Don't focus on it too much.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:27

My top tip would be know your audience as to who you are advertising to.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:32

So is it women in business?

Lucy Howell: 00:25:35

Is it mums, is it women Over.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:38

D, is it men that you're marketing to know your target audience and really

Lucy Howell: 00:25:42

get that in your head because your keywords that you need to use are gonna

Lucy Howell: 00:25:47

come off the back of that audience.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:48

You don't want to be selling a product to women in business and then only

Lucy Howell: 00:25:52

finding the, you know, Teenagers under the age of 14 are looking at your pins.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:57

It's just, it's, it's irrelevant.

Lucy Howell: 00:25:58

You don't want it.

Lucy Howell: 00:26:00

And if that happens, you've done something wrong with the targeting.

Lucy Howell: 00:26:04

So you need to be really clear and really specific in your head of who

Lucy Howell: 00:26:07

you are marketing your products to.

Lucy Howell: 00:26:09

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Howell: 00:26:09

. Um, so there's a really easy way of doing it, but I'll.

Lucy Howell: 00:26:14

give you a link to that and show you how to, you know, show your

Lucy Howell: 00:26:17

audience how to find keywords, but it is really easy to do it.

Lucy Howell: 00:26:20

But you need to know in your head who you're marketing your project

Lucy Howell: 00:26:23

to in order to be able to get that target audience found on Pinterest.

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:28

Yeah, I mean, that is really important and that you should, in

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:33

your podcast, have a good idea of who you.

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:36

Your podcast to reach as well.

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:38

Yeah.

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:38

Um, so hopefully you, I mean, it, it's always, it can be quite hard narrowing

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:45

some of those things down, but it's a really good exercise to do for your

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:48

business and for your podcast in general, is really knowing who you want to

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:52

target and what key words are gonna be relevant for those, for those people.

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:57

Definitely.

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:58

Well, thank you, Lucy.

Rachael Botfield: 00:26:59

It's been such a great chat today.

Rachael Botfield: 00:27:01

No.

Rachael Botfield: 00:27:02

You have some news as well, don't you?

Rachael Botfield: 00:27:04

Do you wanna tell us a little bit about your

Lucy Howell: 00:27:06

news?

Lucy Howell: 00:27:07

Yes.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:07

So I have got, um, a little bit of news.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:09

So I am in the process of setting up my own podcast, which is going

Lucy Howell: 00:27:14

to be called based on my name and my tagline, uh, how can I help

Lucy Howell: 00:27:19

I love that.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:21

It just seemed like a, so it's gonna be a.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:25

A podcast basically with moms and moms in business predominantly.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:30

I'm not discounting dads, obviously.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:31

I want to get another perspective, but originally it's gonna be moms in business.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:36

Um, just to kind of have a chat with them really and find out any.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:41

You know, issues that they've had with, you know, being a, a mom and,

Lucy Howell: 00:27:45

and maybe working from home and things like that when they've got children.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:49

Like I say, I've got a two and a half year old and it's so difficult, but,

Lucy Howell: 00:27:52

you know, we do it and we are doing it.

Lucy Howell: 00:27:54

And I look on LinkedIn every day and see so many amazing women out there that

Lucy Howell: 00:27:59

are like, you know, they're running a.

Lucy Howell: 00:28:01

A, a six figure business, you know, or, or more even.

Lucy Howell: 00:28:05

And they've got, you know, 2, 3, 4 kids even, you know, um, and they're

Lucy Howell: 00:28:09

all toddlers or they're all, you know, they're all at home and things like that.

Lucy Howell: 00:28:13

So it would be great to kind of talk to other women and other moms and

Lucy Howell: 00:28:17

find out, you know, what their kind of key tips are for other people and

Lucy Howell: 00:28:22

you know, what their struggles have been as well with getting there.

Lucy Howell: 00:28:25

So that's kind of where we're going with the

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:27

podcast.

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:27

Yeah, I really, I really like listening to.

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:31

real life stories.

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:32

Um, yeah.

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:33

And hearing how people who are, you know, just like you, often it's,

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:39

it's quite easy to, um, kind of think that you are alone, alone in it.

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:43

And even though you know you aren't, it's so easy to fall in into that feeling.

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:48

Like, what?

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:49

Like when I started my first podcast was.

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:51

Um, virtually inspiring podcast and I was talking to VAs and how they got

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:54

for their journeys, and that was what something that me at the beginning of

Rachael Botfield: 00:28:58

my journey was really interested in knowing, like how did you actually just.

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:01

Start and do this, and you know, a lot of them women's as well.

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:05

And it's so interesting hearing people's root to it, and it's all very different.

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:10

So I think that's, um, it's gonna be a really good podcast to

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:13

listen to in the, in the Preneur.

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:15

I know some people don't like that.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:16

Uh, . Yeah, I know.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:18

That's why I try and say mum's in business.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:20

But yeah,

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:20

you know, my, the jury's still out.

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:22

I get why people don't like preneur because it's like, it's

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:26

like saying, oh, Womenpreneur, you can't be an entrepreneur, but.

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:30

I think in terms of, um, I don't necessarily think it's like a, I

Rachael Botfield: 00:29:35

don't think of it as a derogatory

Lucy Howell: 00:29:36

thing.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:36

I think it's dislike.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:37

I don't kinda like, yeah, it's like it's catchy, you know?

Lucy Howell: 00:29:41

It's just a slang way of saying it's just a slang way own mom in business, isn't it?

Lucy Howell: 00:29:45

You know?

Lucy Howell: 00:29:46

Awesome person in business.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:47

That's it.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:47

So . Yeah,

Lucy Howell: 00:29:50

. Rachael Botfield: That's

Lucy Howell: 00:29:51

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:51

Person.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:53

. Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:53

Person.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:54

Yeah, person.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:55

Yeah.

Lucy Howell: 00:29:55

We won't go that

Lucy Howell: 00:29:57

. Rachael Botfield: Um, well, do you

Lucy Howell: 00:30:00

If people are interested in having Pinterest for their podcast, do you

Lucy Howell: 00:30:04

wanna let us know the best place to find you and where you hang?

Lucy Howell: 00:30:06

Yeah, so, uh, my website is uh, www.howellvirtual.co.uk,

Lucy Howell: 00:30:14

Facebook, Instagram.

Lucy Howell: 00:30:15

Um, all of my social media handles are at Howl Virtual, so pretty simple and

Lucy Howell: 00:30:20

straightforward to find me . That's

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:22

great.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:22

I'll link it all in the show notes as well.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:24

Just say that.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:25

Make it easier for people to find you as well.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:28

And thank you so much for coming on and talking to us about Pinterest.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:32

I'm sure I do have some more questions, so potentially we might do a follow

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:36

up episode , and definitely you've inspired me to be a little bit more

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:40

proactive with getting into Pinterest.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:42

I'd just like those, those odds, let's say, not odds, but you know,

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:46

the, the, um, interaction and the engagement you were talking about it.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:50

Extremely exciting.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:52

So I would think I might have a look at that.

Rachael Botfield: 00:30:55

So thanks very much, Lucy, and we'll

Lucy Howell: 00:30:57

speak to you soon.

Lucy Howell: 00:30:58

No problem at all, Rachel.

Lucy Howell: 00:30:59

Thank you for having me.

Lucy Howell: 00:31:01

Okay, bye bye.

Rachael Botfield: 00:31:05

Thanks for listening to the show.

Rachael Botfield: 00:31:06

If you'd like to connect with me or get in touch, then head on over to my website.

Rachael Botfield: 00:31:10

If you like the episode, then I'd love it if you could leave me a

Rachael Botfield: 00:31:13

review in your chosen podcast app.

Rachael Botfield: 00:31:14

Your feedback is much appreciated.