I am so excited to share this episode with you because we finally have our very first male guest on the podcast - Dr. Ahan Hunter, an OB/GYN from Virginia! We kicked things off by chatting about what it’s like being a man in a super female-dominated field, how he fell in love with birth during med school, and the subtle (and not-so-subtle) pushback he sometimes faces. But the real heart of this conversation is all things induction — why there’s this weird “evil induction” stigma out there, and how we can swing the pendulum back to the middle where informed choice lives.

We broke down the difference between induction and augmentation, talked through real reasons people get induced (high blood pressure, diabetes, big baby concerns, going past your due date, or even just being totally done being pregnant after 39 weeks), and dug into the data versus the guilt we sometimes feel about our choices. Dr. Hunter shared his honest take on the Arrive trial, C-section risks, baby size estimates, and how monitoring can give you options if you want to wait a little longer. The whole conversation felt like the supportive, judgment-free chat I wish every pregnant person could have with their provider. If you’ve ever felt torn about inductions or just want to feel empowered to ask better questions, this one’s for you!

More from Dr. Ahan Hunter:

Follow Dr. Hunter on TikTok, Instagram, FaceBook & YouTube @drahanhunter

Helpful Timestamps:

1. 00:00 Induction Stigma & Myths
2. 03:34 Welcome Dr. Ahan Hunter
3. 05:57 Male Provider Trust
4. 09:22 Finding the Right Fit
5. 15:00 Induction Pendulum Shift
6. 18:00 Induction Vs Augmentation
7. 21:13 Reasons To Induce
8. 27:23 Big Baby Size Debate
9. 31:24 Advocating for Your Choices
10. 34:01 Arrive Trial Explained
11. 38:09 C-Section Risk Talk
12. 47:03 Choosing Your Provider

About your host:

🩺🤰🏻Lo Mansfield, MSN, RNC-OB, CLC is a registered nurse, mama of 4, and a birth, baby, and motherhood enthusiast. She is both the host of the Lo & Behold podcast and the founder of The Labor Mama.

For more education, support and “me too” from Lo, please visit her website and check out her online courses and digital guides for birth, breastfeeding, and postpartum/newborns. You can also follow @thelabormama and @loandbehold_thepodcast on Instagram and join her email list here.

For more pregnancy, birth, postpartum and motherhood conversation each week, be sure to subscribe to The Lo & Behold podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you prefer to listen!

👉🏼 A request: If this episode meant something to you, would you consider a 5 star rating and leaving us a review? Yes, we read them, and yes, they help keep L & B going! ♥️

Connect with Lo more on: INSTAGRAM | TIK TOK | PINTEREST | FACEBOOK

Disclaimer

Opinions shared by guests of this show are their own, and do not always reflect those of The Labor Mama platform. Additionally, the information you hear on this podcast or that you receive via any linked resources should not be considered medical advice. Please see our full disclaimer here.

Additionally, we may make a small commission from some of the links shared with you. Please know, this comes at no additional cost to you, supports our small biz, and is a way for us to share brands and products with you that we genuinely love.

Produced and Edited by Vaden Podcast Services

Mentioned in this episode:

YBYB 20% off ad link

We have to take away that negative stigma that comes from inductions.

Yes.

Does an induction versus regular labor, do inductions cause more C-sections?

Of course, yes.

But it doesn't mean it has to be that way.

The data tells us it's not normally.

So as long as we take into account different ways to start set induction, I think it, you can have fantastic outcomes regardless of how you want to deliver.

Motherhood is all consuming.

Having babies, nursing, feeling the fear of loving someone that much, and there's this baby on your chest, and boom, your entire life has changed.

It's a privilege of being your child's safest space and watching your heart walk around outside of your body.

The truth is.

I can be having the best time being a mom one minute, and then the next, I'm questioning all my life choices.

I'm Lo Mansfield, your host of the Lo and Behold podcast, mama of four Littles, former labor and postpartum RN, CLC, and your new best friend in the messy middle space of all the choices you are making in pregnancy, birth, and motherhood.

If there is one thing I know after years of delivering babies at the bedside and then having, and now raising those four of my own, it is that there is no such thing as a best way to do any of this.

And we're leaning into that truth here with the mix of real life and what the textbook says, expert Insights and practical applications.

Each week we're making our way towards stories that we participate in, stories that we are honest about, and stories that are ours.

This is the lo and behold podcast.

Today's guest is a very big deal.

He wouldn't tell you that, but I'm gonna tell you that because he is the first man that I've ever had on this podcast, and it is not my husband, Kelvin.

It should be, but it's not yet.

I'm still trying to get him to sit here next to me, but.

For today, we have Dr. Hunter here.

He is a practicing OB, GYN.

He's from Charleston, South Carolina, grew up, spent his younger years in South Carolina and then trained and now is practicing in Virginia.

He's married to his wife, who's also a nurse, they have three kids.

They're 18, eight and three years old, so he's a busy dad.

He's a busy practicing OB, GYN, and he's on the social media platforms, which is actually where I found him.

So if you aren't familiar with him, I hope you love this conversation.

Man listening to him talk.

I just thought you are the type of providers that we need to be sitting in front of when we're having our babies, I also love the way that he shows up online.

So I would encourage you to follow him here after you listen to this, and I hope you guys enjoy it.

This conversation's gonna be all things induction.

It's something he wanted to talk about lean into, and so that is what we are going to do together.

All right.

I told Dr. Hunter this before we started, but he is the first man to ever come on the podcast.

So I am, yeah, we're cheering.

I'm really grateful to him for coming on, and we're gonna get into that specifically as well as a bunch of other stuff.

But Dr. Hunter, thank you so much for coming on here with me.

Dr. Hunter: No problem.

Thank you for having me.

Also being the first man, this is my first, guest podcast appearance, so I'm so excited.

I didn't know that.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm really excited about that.

Well, I'll have Dr. Hunter share later, but he, you know, is on all the social platforms and he can share all that with you guys.

But that's where I found him, honestly, was on TikTok and we were laughing about that too, but he said, I didn't know what I was doing, but I was.

Put it out there.

Mm-hmm.

And here, and here we are.

So we're gonna talk about induction and some of the big questions that come up kind of over and over and again for all of you about having inductions.

Should we, why win?

How, all of that stuff.

But I actually first wanted to talk to Dr. Hunter about, being a man in a largely female dominated field.

So I think basic like softball question there is just.

Why ob, GYN.

Mm-hmm.

How did you get here?

Mm-hmm.

Why, why does your heart love this?

Dr. Hunter: Right.

So it's, it's crazy because when I started my journey is, is so interesting to me because when I started I never even wanted to be a doctor.

I was actually trying to copy my sister.

And my sister was the first person in my family that I knew of who said she wanted to be a physician.

Now she's not a physician, but, she started me thinking about it.

So when I went to med school.

I, one of my professors said, my anatomy professor actually said, Hey, you should be an ob, GYN.

You're really good at pelvis anatomy.

Like you just, it comes easy to you.

I was like, first of all, that's the last thing I wanna do.

And I want no parts of any of that.

I wanted to be either a pediatrician, a pediatric surgeon, or like a pediatric emergency medicine.

'cause I love babies.

I mean, I love kids and, I love like the, the innocence of a child is, was so.

Beautiful to me.

So when I did my rotation, speaking of loving children, I delivered, I helped deliver my first child.

And it was, I remember it was like 6:00 PM I know exactly what room I was in.

It was like the best experience of my entire medical school career.

And I always tell people I chose OB because it was like a lost love.

Like I was in this relationship for six weeks.

We had to end it because the rotation ended.

So

true.

And

Dr. Hunter: I was like, what is she doing?

Like, what are they doing?

Like what's, what's life like?

I'm supposed to be over here in pediatrics or surgery and all these, but I just couldn't get enough.

So it just kind of like, uh, old love that just bit me and I just had to, had to keep going.

I love that.

It's almost like something, I don't know, it's like the cheesy books that talk about falling in love.

Yeah.

This idea that you can't stop it.

Right.

Right.

Like once you fall, what are you supposed to do about it?

Right.

Right.

And I think.

I, again, that cheesy, that idea though, of like the first time I saw a birth, I was gone for birth, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Like that idea of this.

And I'm in that camp, like this miracle never gets old, ever.

I mean, it, it really, really doesn't.

And I think once it's kind of hooked, its claws in you for a lot of people.

You just, yeah.

Like you said, you just kind of can't forget about it.

Dr. Hunter: Yeah.

At all.

It's crazy actually.

Okay.

So being a male in a largely female dominated branch of medicine, though I'm sure.

That comes with challenges.

I don't wanna say it like that.

Like you have to fight every day just to be there at your job.

But do you ever run into finding Yeah.

That it can be tough to, I don't say convince.

A woman to want a male ob, but what are the perspectives you get from people around you?

Obviously patients who up in front of you, end up in front of you, probably love you.

Like what does that conversation look like?

Sometimes?

Dr. Hunter: It, it's funny you said convinced because I feel like on, on a daily basis I'm trying to convince somebody that I am the doctor for them.

Like that's what I do constantly.

And one advice I got a long time ago was don't let people see who you are.

Don't try to be.

Someone else, a different physician for them.

Let them just choose you instead of you trying to make them.

Choose elsewhere.

So for me, I just am constantly just trying to be myself.

And my goal with every encounter is to convince somebody to come back and see me again.

That they would say, oh, I really like this doctor.

He listened to me.

He really was trying to hear my concerns, and I wanna go back and see him because I feel heard.

So that's my literally day that I had that today.

Somebody literally was like, oh, I never had a male provider, never had a male doctor before.

You're my first one.

I'm gonna come back and see you.

I'm like, yes, win.

Done it again.

That's my, that's what like driver, because it's, it's, it's interesting.

I thought about this morning, I was like, being a male in the OB dominated field is choosing discrimination constantly and.

It's, it's a, it's a subtle discrimination where you're like, oh, I didn't really think about it that way.

But I mean, it is like people, I've had people who not wanna see me because they're like, oh, you're a man.

I don't wanna, I've never had a male ob.

I don't want a man to see anything.

Like, I absolutely not, which I respect totally fine, but I just constantly have to remind myself that.

Because there are less males in the field, it's more of a unknown, like, what am I gonna get into?

And people are fearful of trauma, of bringing back, bringing up trauma that may or may not have been in their past or some new trauma they don't want to experience.

So I, and I completely understand, you hear these crazy stories, so I completely understand.

But for me, I, my goal is to just try to change the narrative constantly.

To just like help people know that.

I'm not this like weird trying to like sexualize this encounter.

Like that is not me at all.

I tell people all the time like, I don't want your problems.

I tell their spouses.

I'm like, listen, I don't want your boob.

I have my own problems in my life.

I don't want anybody else's.

I didn't do this to add on more problems to me.

I don't want your spouse at all promise you at all.

I have an amazing wife.

I chose one.

I don't need multiple, like I'm good.

Yeah.

No, I, I mean, it makes sense and I remember patients we had at 1.1.

Full-time male, l and d, we did LDRP, so all of it.

Oh yeah.

But one LDRP nurse, who was a guy, he didn't last very long.

He's actually incredible.

People loved him.

Mm-hmm.

So I don't think he left because he couldn't make it in this female, on this female floor or whatever.

Then we had one male who floated and so like PRN, he'd show up every once in a while, but there was often that pushback from a patient of like.

Do I have to have a guy, you know, like an a, a judgment before they've ever been mm-hmm.

In the room.

Mm-hmm.

So how mm-hmm.

You know, you kind of talk about this, a little bit of discrimination.

It is true.

I'm sure that that is in front of you.

I loved how you talked about though, this idea of.

I'm not trying to be someone for them, like they have to want me.

And I actually think that's such good advice for all of us as we're thinking about, you know, interviewing provider like male or female.

Mm-hmm.

The advice is, you know, find your birth team, find the person who makes sense, so to be able to walk away from maybe a. Prenatal or preemptive appointment with the OB GYN or a midwife and say like, I liked who they were.

Like I didn't feel like they were trying to be what I wanted, but more like they just are what feels good.

Like if we can figure that out.

I'm saying we like all of us trying to figure out how to be our doctor, like if we can figure that out.

I do think that's a huge part of finding right fit is that you are who you are and I.

I need that to be what I need and not you trying to right to be what I need.

So it's so good.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I was just with a midwife a while ago who does all home birth midwifery, I think in Virginia actually out near where you are.

And she was saying that when clients are sitting in front of her, if they ever are asking questions like.

Tell me like why I should have a home birth, like that type of vibe.

She's like, absolutely not.

I need you to tell me why you want one.

Like, you convinced me, almost said this is what you want.

And that's kind of what popped into my head when you brought that up of almost like, you tell me what you want, and then that I can be able to say, Hey, we're a good fit or we're not, and almost like take the onus off of you and put it back on us to figuring that, figuring that out a little bit.

So I love that.

Dr. Hunter: Yeah.

Perfect.

I also have to say one of my favorite obs that I ever worked with was a man.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, should I shout him out right now?

Maybe not.

You'd probably get there.

Need is a listen to me.

What am I saying?

But anyways, I remember telling everyone, 'cause we have, I don't know how it is where you work, but like an obs on call 24 7 for the night shift.

And so if you come flying in and you're.

Precipitous or something like you probably won't get your doctor.

It might just be

Dr. Hunter: yes,

them sleeping in the room.

And I always used to say, if I come fly in him, he can deliver me.

Oh my gosh.

I'd be so happy.

Like I do not care if it's him.

He can deliver my baby.

And so that's just, I think, personal experience.

I've always felt like often if you are a male in this field, it is because you love it.

Yes.

And so really like.

Isn't that to me, almost like, let's give you a gold star from the start.

'cause you're here where people are questioning while you're here.

And to me that means, well it's because you really, really love it and wanna be here.

So,

Dr. Hunter: and I tell you that's

kinda the way I look at it when there are men,

Dr. Hunter: when I'm in going through med school and and meeting all these other people and we're all kind of discover what we wanna do.

OB GYN is either a hate it or love it specialty like.

When you're doing this, you either absolutely love it and you wanna do this for the rest of your life, or you wanna stay far away from it.

Which is why when many emergency rooms, when you go to an ER and you're like, man, I don't know if they know, if they feel comfortable treating a pregnant woman, it's probably 'cause they don't, 'cause they do not love it.

OB or GYN at all.

It's like not their thing.

So I, yeah.

Well, I know that from working on the OB floor and the ER calls and they're like, she's pregnant.

Get down here.

Dr. Hunter: Right, right.

Nobody wants to touch her,

Dr. Hunter: so nobody, not a soul.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, thank you for answering all those questions.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm sure they're a little bit personal, but I do think it's, yeah, it's a question that everyone always has for men in the field, and I would say particularly younger providers like yourself, because sometimes.

We're all like, oh yeah, there's this old OB who's 80 mm-hmm.

And he's still delivering babies.

Like you kind of hear that.

But I love hearing from younger men who are deciding to come into the field and why, so I love that.

Dr. Hunter: Perfect.

Okay, so let's get into this induction conversation that mm-hmm.

We are wanting to have, I think I'm gonna say this really broadly first, and just say you kind of were like, let's talk about induction and seemed like you had a heart for it.

So my first question would actually be why, like, why do you wanna talk about induction a little bit more?

Dr. Hunter: It's, it's funny because I, I think.

Not only obs, but just providers as a whole take care of all pregnant women.

There's this negative stigma about inductions from all parties, and I think inductions can be a very powerful thing and I think we, I, what I try to do is take some of that negative stigma away.

Yes.

Does natural labor, meaning you, you show up and you're in rip rowing labor, does that have better outcomes?

Better as far as like safety for mom and baby?

Yeah, of course.

But.

Induction does have its place too.

And I think we have to take away this, this evil induction idea that's there because I, I, to me, I feel like it's, it's definitely warranted.

And over the years, taking care of so many pregnant women, I, I realize that some people have reasons for it, but they feel guilty.

And I, and I feel like that's wrong, that you shouldn't feel guilty for wanting that.

Sometimes it's, it's social, right?

You have a spouse or a family member.

That's either military or, or needs to go overseas or something, and you're like, man, I really want this person here for my delivery.

Like to me, that's a, that's a. Viable normal reason to request it or you have a medical problem and people are so torn about induction, not induction and they sometimes make decisions that can hurt themselves or their their child without even knowing it.

So that to me, that that's why I feel like we have to take away that negative stigma that comes from inductions.

Yes.

Does it, does an induction versus regular labor, do inductions cause more C-sections?

Of course, yes.

But it doesn't mean it has to be that way.

The data tells us it's not normally.

So as long as we take into account different ways to start set induction, I think it, you can have fantastic outcomes regardless of how you want to, deliver.

Yeah, I talk about this a lot or it's definitely, I feel like the base or the foundation behind so much of teaching and.

What I love doing online as well is this idea of, I feel like there's been this pendulum swing and we have this.

Everything was like too clinical.

We were being told what to do, exactly how to deliver, how to breathe.

Like everything was being very, prescriptive for us.

And so there's this pendulum swing now that's happened as a pushback against that.

And I think this is good because that type of birth, that type of experience wasn't serving a lot of us well if, mm-hmm.

If any.

But now we have this swing of like, don't say yes to anything.

All interventions are bad.

And we have what you just said, which is someone wanting an induction because.

I don't know.

Their mom's in town.

It's the only week and she's their favorite person.

I don't know whatever reason it is.

Right.

You know, now they're validating a choice that they've made and they've been thoughtful.

And so they're, but they're almost nervous or embarrassed to tell people.

so we have this swing now.

Where it feels like if you want a cervical exam, everyone's like, why are you doing a cervical exam?

If you wanna be induced?

Why are you being induced?

Mm-hmm.

If you want whatever, fill in the blank.

It's like, why would you do that?

And so I think we just need this pendulum to just sit in the middle and stop being on either side and say, Hey, this is the goal.

You have information to make a decision.

You are respected for your decision.

Whether or not it lines up, you know, with evidence or what I think I being you, the pride or whoever, like just let it sit there and let.

People say, cool, thank you.

Here's my choice.

And then we carry on.

And I really think induction falls into that pendulum swing of like, you've got these really aggressive opinions against it.

Without that kind of good recognition of there are times it's really necessary, it's helpful, needed, it's wanted, and all of that, that can be really valid.

So

Dr. Hunter: yeah,

let's, put the pendulum, put the pendulum back where it goes.

Dr. Hunter: And I, I agree.

You know, I was like, sorry, I was thinking.

The same way you were saying how the field had been.

So I think paternalistic for such a long time, you have to do this, you have to do it this way, that you must show up, you gotta do this.

And so I agree 100% and I think that we as providers, no matter who's taking care of pregnant women, have to do a better job at not only presenting.

Information and presenting options, but being okay with choice and whatever choice people take.

And sometimes I think we have to get out of our own provider wise, have to get out of our own way because we feel like someone should choose X.

And I'm like, well, why would you give them these options if you are saying they need to do this thing?

Well, you, we have to do a better job of counseling now because I shouldn't tell you a thing that's gonna be dangerous for you.

If I know it's gonna be dangerous for you.

Right?

So some of this we have to take ownership too, and how we counsel and talk to everybody, because we do do many people a disservice because sometimes our own personal bias comes out.

You shouldn't be, I don't even know why you would even think about induction, what some people will say.

Like, and so now as you feel dismissed, and, and I think that's a, a big issue too.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Will you talk about really quickly, just vocabulary, almost the difference between induction and augmentation?

Sure.

So people kind of understand.

What that might mean for them.

Yeah,

Dr. Hunter: so the way I use explaining is, is an induction is going from zero to 60, right?

You are doing nothing.

Your body is not in labor, you are not even contracting.

You may have one or two here and there, but nothing is regularly happening and we have to give you medication to basically start labor, jumpstart your labor.

And augmentation is you're starting to do a little something right?

Your cervix may be slightly dilated, two or three centimeters.

You may be in this early, latent labor, as we call it.

So from cervix is either one to five generally, and your labor may stall out.

So for instance, some people will show up to labor and delivery.

Their cervix were changed from two to four centimeters.

And then as time takes on, the contractions start to go away and they don't, they feel like the contraction's not as strong as what, what it was when they first got there.

So an augmentation is like, okay, we're gonna add.

Pitocin to help you have more regular contractions.

Outcomes for augmentations are much better than, again, induction as far as if vaginal delivery is the end point, but still it's not, it's not the same.

And I think some people do put the two together in the same boat.

Every person that gets Pitocin is not being induced.

And so that's the big key difference.

But an induction is just literally zero to 60.

Hey friend, quick pause for just a second.

If you are listening to this podcast, because you wanna feel more prepared, more confident, and less freaked out about birth, that is exactly why I created the Your Body, your Birth Course.

This birth course will not tell you what kind of birth you should want, and nobody has the right to do that.

It is about how you understand what's happening in your body.

What your options actually are and how to walk into your birth.

Feeling grounded, excited, ready, instead of overwhelmed and scared.

When you have education like this, everything changes your mindset, your conversations with your care team and the birth experience itself.

No more relying on random opinions.

Okay.

Stop scrolling.

Take intentional action with me and start trusting your body, your voice, and your decisions today.

Head over to www.thelabormama.com/birth, also linked in your show notes, and be sure to use the code podcast at checkout to save 20% and start working towards this better birth for you right now.

Okay, let's get you back to the episode.

That's perfect labor.

I want, I like, I, I think that's important because you'll hear things like, you know, I, like 50% of labor's ish in the US utilize Pitocin.

And you go, whoa, that many, you know, you can think that many are being induced, or what does that look like?

And so.

It's still valuable, I would say, for everyone to understand what's Pitocin do, what's it for, how's it support, how's it help, how can it hurt?

You know, all of that.

But just understanding there's like different ways it can be utilized.

Understanding the, the, or any of the other induction and augmentation tools as well, but just understanding that it's not all this one basket.

Like you said, like if you have Pitocin, that means you're being induced.

That's, that's not necessarily true.

And so just, yeah.

I think that patients can come in and be thoughtful.

About how things are used and how that applies to what's going on with them.

So it feels like part of this induction conversation for sure.

So you have mentioned a little bit when you were just talking about induction versus augmentation.

You mentioned the phrase like, reasons for induction.

So can we, let's, let's talk about some of those.

So again, we're talking about nothing's going on and we're going to put you into labor.

What are some reasons for that?

How should we be thinking through some of that?

Dr. Hunter: The most common is elective, what we call like.

I just wanna be induced for a number of different reasons.

And again, I support.

You can just wanna be induced for just being tired of being pregnant.

TOBP is, some have termed, I'm just tired and I just wanna have this child, and I respect that wholeheartedly.

I've never carried a child myself.

But I have seen my wife be pregnant and it is not, it was not beautiful for her.

And so I understand, like firsthand, I understand.

I helped roll her outta it every day.

Okay.

I

wanna, I wanna interrupt you for a second because, the TOBP diagnosis that's air quotes people, it's not a real diagnosis.

Dr. Hunter: Yeah.

But would have to be after 39 weeks, right?

So.

Correct.

So talk to us about that too, because I know that plays into elective inductions and

Dr. Hunter: Yes.

So, and

that desire.

Dr. Hunter: There was this, years ago there was this definition of like term, not term coin.

So after 37 weeks we coined your, your full term, even though most people think it's 40, but after 30 seven's full term.

But there's early term and then what we call just regular term.

So.

You used to be able to induce anyone after 37 weeks.

If you were tired to being pregnant, 38 weeks, you could just have a baby, show up, have a baby.

And then we learned that more of those babies are, were admitted to the NICU and had, worse outcomes.

But if you induce after 39, that's sort of a magical, sweet spot as far as lowering the risk of.

Issues for both mom and baby.

So now the recommendation is not to electively induce anybody before 39 weeks unless you have a medical reason to do it.

Right.

That's perfect.

Okay.

Carry on with the other reasons besides TOPB.

Dr. Hunter: Another big one is high blood pressure.

So any kind of, what we call hypertension.

Any kind of high blood pressure disease in pregnancy, whether you had high blood pressure before you got pregnant, you had high blood pressure when you got pregnant.

Gestational hypertension, whether you have some sort of a preeclampsia either the

what we call mild form or severe form, or if you, have any other version of like high blood pressure disease like health syndrome for instance, even though you don't have to have high blood pressure would help.

But regardless, any kind of, blood pressure spectrum, that is a one, one big one diabetes and they've just changed the, the guidelines for diabetes where if it's uncontrolled, then yes, before 39 works beautifully.

If it's controlled even on medications, 39 weeks is actually a, a good sweet spot to shoot for as long as baby's not too big per ultrasound guidelines and there's no other complications going on.

And then there's a bunch of others, like if you have some sort of history of lupus, for instance, some of my with lupus have a higher risk of high blood pressure.

If your lupus is becoming more.

Outta control, then yes, you need an earlier delivery.

There's others like you have placental issues, so placenta previa.

So if your placenta is over the cervix and basically blocking away for the baby, the closer you get to term, the more likely you are to go into labor and contractions with the baby.

Pushing on that, exposed placenta over the cervix can lead to bleeding.

Problem for baby.

So another big one.

So there's this whole long list, and I didn't even get into multiples like twins and triplets and all of that.

But, it's a long, list per acog, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists that they put out for all OBGYNs in the country.

And then there is this caveat that's there too.

So if someone has a history of traumatic birth and traumatic birth is not, you know, you, you.

Are traumatized from your birth, but more traumatic meaning from a medical standpoint, near death experience.

Something happened in a prior birth and you're pregnant again, then you can consider early delivery before 39.

Alright.

I want you to speak a little bit more about inducing for baby's size.

'cause you mentioned it when you talked about gestational diabetes.

It comes up a ton.

Mm-hmm.

And I feel like that is one of the induction conversations that is the most confusing for people when they hear.

They told me my baby's big, they wanna do another ultrasound.

I'm 38 weeks or 37.

They probably aren't.

Yeah, maybe a little bit earlier.

Mm-hmm.

But a later term ultrasound induction for size and really nothing, nothing else in that of like, do I have to do this?

So gimme some thoughts on that one.

Dr. Hunter: So.

I'm gonna give you my, what the data says and what the guidelines say, please.

And my personal, my personal opinion, because I got opinions, but the easiest to to understand is smaller babies, we have way more data on and we're better at, at accurately predicting smaller babies sizes.

So if you get an ultrasound and it says, your baby's four pounds, one ounce, we're really good at, at, when that baby comes out, it's pretty, it's within a few ounces of being pretty correct generally.

Depends on where you get your ultrasound, who did it, et cetera.

That's right.

But for the most part, someone experienced, and folks who do this all the time, that's generally what happens.

And there's, there's recommendation based on how small, and we think about size of a baby, like when you take a child to the pediatrician and they say, oh, my baby's the 90th percentile.

They're like, oh, you got a big kid.

So my child's bigger than 90% of other kids at that same age.

We do the same thing for pregnancy.

So someone has already figured out what the average size is of a child each week of gestational age of pregnancy, so 36 versus 39 and 40, et cetera.

So if your child is less than the 10th percentile, that means.

Your baby's at a higher risk of needing help after delivery, whether feeding issues, breathing issues, et cetera.

So we usually will say you have a small baby, meaning less than a 10 percentile.

We recommend an earlier induction, early meaning before your due date, and generally it's somewhere between 37 to 39, depending on how small the baby is And we say early induction.

But early delivery.

And one caveat I do wanna put out there is that when someone recommends an early delivery, early delivery does not equal C-section.

So it just means we need to find ways to get the baby out, and that's usually an induction more commonly.

On the flip side, there.

Are, are guidelines for babies that we deem too big, right?

We, we, there's some data to show that when a child is more than a certain amount of grams, so 4,500 if you have diabetes or 5,000, if you're not, don't have diabetes, and that's not pre-diabetes, that's just like overt diabetes or not, that shows that there's a higher likelihood of.

Your baby getting stuck coming out, or issues with breathing.

Breathing, excuse me, and issues with blood sugar control, et cetera, after delivery.

Now that's what the data says.

My opinion, I think we as providers induce way too many women for what we deem as big babies and don't focus more on telling people that, hey, we're not very accurate at predicting.

Very big babies.

We're really good at small ones, but not as good at bigger babies.

Ultrasound, they quote is a good plus or minus 20%, which is a big deal.

So when you get to full term, 20% is a difference of like a pound and a half, which is huge, going from seven pounds to nine and a half, or seven to five.

But generally it falls under I what I've, from what I've experienced.

The other thing I tell people too, especially if it's your first time, if you get an ultrasound and let's say that baby is measuring nine pounds and you are 39 in 2, 3, 9 weeks, in two days, some people would say, Hey, I would recommend an induction.

I would say I would.

I would tell you that that's part of the recommendation, but I would give you the option.

No one knows if your child is gonna fit until it does or does not.

Right.

So for instance, I have a lady that I took care of.

She, I took care of her in her fourth pregnancy.

Pregnancy, excuse me.

Her prior three babies were all 10 pounds, 10 and a half, 10 and some change.

And her next, that fourth child was 12 pounds, still fit vaginally.

Who was I to tell her that it wasn't gonna work?

If your pelvis is what we call tested to a certain size, meaning you have proven that you can deliver a baby.

X amount of size, that's a way better predictor of success than me just guessing.

And I feel like that's part of that paternalistic view.

Again, as many providers will say, I don't think the baby's gonna fit, but I don't think the baby's gonna fit.

Is not a clinical diagnosis, nor is it a strong suggestion.

And, and I'm not saying go against your provider's, suggestions, but I am saying you have the right to say no.

you have the right to say, I'm not comfortable.

Induction, especially if someone just says, I don't think it's gonna work, because I don't think it's gonna work means nothing.

At least to me it means nothing.

Yeah.

I mean, I feel the same.

And there, I forget what the statistics are about like.

True Cephalopelvic disproportion, like the head actually not fitting through the pelvis and the actual number is so incredibly small, right?

Mm-hmm.

Of a baby.

Truly that the head like can't fit, right?

And that doesn't mean that doesn't happen.

It doesn't mean babies aren't in funky positions.

And then we run into that because of other reasons as well.

But like I just think that idea of someone without ever giving you a chance to.

Prove your pelvis to just say like, your body has made a baby that won't fit.

I just like, I personally really struggle with that one too.

Mm-hmm.

Because typically that's, that's not true at all.

Now are there other things that can impact labor that, that can cause fit issues?

Yes, sometimes induction can be part of that.

So like, then, then that the waters get like a little, a little murky with that too.

But I think that conversation of inducing purely for size we're talk, especially talking big babies like you said.

And when they're not over.

Those boundaries that you mentioned of like the 4,500 and the 5,000 and a first timer, I just feel like that's so complicated.

'cause they hear, oh no, I'm gonna have an issue.

But really none of that.

Like evidence doesn't really say you should be induced if we're talking about under those numbers that you mentioned.

Mm-hmm.

Like, it doesn't say it's an offer, it's a suggestion.

It's a possibility.

So I just think that's such a hard choice for those, again, especially that first timer to make who's like, can a baby fit?

I've never done this before.

Oh shoot.

And just that, that feels like a tough one for me.

So thank you for, for clarifying it.

I think maybe takeaway of that is, is knowing that that alone.

feel like a lot of people come to me and say, Hey, this is the reason, but there's nothing else going on.

What do you think?

And it's like, well, one, I can't tell you what to do.

But second of all, like.

Go ask more questions, right?

Or ask about follow up or ask about delaying a week and having the conversation again, like just pushing back a little bit with, you don't even have to say I'm absolutely going to induce or not in that scenario, but even just saying like, can we address this in a few more days?

Maybe I'll kick into spontaneous labor, like being comfortable having conversations like that too.

Dr. Hunter: And I had someone else too who She was, moving from a different state and came to where I was.

And so when I saw her, some other providers had already told her, Hey, your baby's measuring ahead, I think three weeks ahead.

And they had put in her head, in her mind that, Hey, I just need to let you know you might have to have a C-section.

So now she comes to see me.

One of her first things she wanted to ask me is, are you gonna make me have a C-section?

And I was like, well, first of all, how are you doing and how is life And.

Where is this coming from?

So you have to like break down some of those barriers and then say, okay, let me tell you where they're coming from and then lemme tell you what the data shows and then I'll give you my opinion.

And that's usually how I like to take it.

I don't like to just, I usually, when I talk to people, I tell them This is either opinion or this is data and I will delineate the two because I think the data is more helpful at helping you make really, really good decisions as far as like what are my outcomes?

Likelihood, and then my personal experience just kind of gives that personal touch to say, oh, okay, if I was his sister, this is what he would tell me.

So it, for her, it luckily, you know, I got to her earlier so we didn't just have one meeting and then she had to deliver.

She ended up delivering.

Baby was fine.

She delivered vaginally.

Her baby was almost 10 pounds, but she pushed it out and it worked out beautifully.

So, you know, fantastic.

I, I'll take that any day.

It doesn't always go that way, but I think being comfortable in your choice is helpful when the outcome doesn't always go the way we think it may go or expect it to go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that really starts with, like you said, when we started, of providers being willing to recognize.

That it is your choice.

And this isn't like a pride hit against me.

If you go against what maybe my recommendation would be like that.

It's just, just your choice in giving them that choice.

I wanna mention, 'cause we've talked about, or I want you to talk about what about inducing for dates?

'cause that's the other one.

That I think comes up a lot as well.

And it's again like, do I really need to induce because I'm 40 and four or whatever.

So what about that one?

Dr. Hunter: So again, my, I get my personal and also the Yeah, of course.

So from, from a, from a suggestion standpoint, data wise, there was this huge, big push, back when, man, I was a resident.

So this was 20, I think 2019 is when this came out.

2019. 2020 when the arrived trial came out.

Yeah.

And so at the time, that was like a big huge arrived trial, was this trial where they looked at.

Women who first pregnancy, they had never gotten pregnant before, never delivered anything.

they looked at women who were induced at 39 weeks and those who were induced at 41 because prior to that date, inductions at 39 weeks were sort of faux pile like we didn't really wanna do that.

We just generally let people get to 41 and say, all right, it's time to have a baby.

And for the most part, and that was sort of the, the cutoff.

And so some people are like, why can't I do a little bit earlier?

And so that's why they did this, and they found that the outcomes were similar.

There was no increased risk of NICU stay, no increased, increased risk of C-section, et cetera, et cetera.

So from a suggestion standpoint, the reason why we generally recommend.

Not going past a certain timeframe past your due date is there's risk of stuff.

One of that stuff is stillbirth, which is the one that scares everybody.

Right.

I always tell people my goal when I take care of pregnant women is to make sure that you get to the end.

You take that baby home in your arms and you get to raise that little one.

And my goal is to help you make decisions to make that happen.

So from a stay pregnant longer standpoint, I will tell people that risk goes up of stillbirth, and I've seen it where you show up and the baby just doesn't have a heartbeat.

So that's a very scary thing.

So I'm scarred by that.

So that's why I make recommendations I do because of that.

From a personal standpoint, but the data just says 41 weeks to 43.

The more, the further along you go, the higher risk of stillbirth from 41 to 43, the further on you go, the higher risk that your baby gets stuck.

'cause from a size standpoint.

So had this thing called shoulder dystocia where a baby gets stuck and then we have to do all these maneuvers to help get the baby out from 41 to 43.

The risk of the baby, having this thing called lanugo and not being able to keep its own, regulate its own temperature.

Goes up.

So the, the risk of NICU stay goes up.

And then the risk of something called transient t epia of the newborn, meaning the baby's born and just for some reason cannot keep its oxygen levels high enough and breathe well, which is a oversimplification of TTN.

But roughly that

it

Dr. Hunter: works.

It's great.

Yeah.

So you know that those risks go up.

So that's where this suggestion of 41 weeks, Hey, have a baby.

And then that's where the 39 elective induction comes from.

What has not been done is this whole, what about I just induce at 40 weeks in two days, 40 weeks in four, et cetera?

From my personal experience, I tell people all the time, I love a good 40 and two, 40 and three induction.

'cause it's not quite 41 with the drama, and it's not quite so early.

With 39, it still gives you a little chance.

So that's my personal feeling.

I love a good 40 week, 40 plus week conduction because.

From what I've seen, the outcomes tend to be work pretty well.

There is, I think a follow-up study that should happen is what's the difference between 39, 40 and 41 starting from scratch?

And then what, what does that look like?

Because I bet there will be more women, who have, there'll be a lower risk of C-section and, better outcomes with 40 week conductions.

Then.

39 and and 41.

So a little controversial.

That's my personal beliefs.

That's not, there's no data behind that.

It's my personal beliefs, but, I, that's just where I fall.

Yeah, I mean, the Arrive trial, anyone who starts digging, I think about induction.

That trial comes up, right?

Mm-hmm.

Every

Dr. Hunter: time.

And I do think that 39 week idea can feel a little bit shocking for some people.

Like, why would we ever induce a perfectly healthy pregnancy at 39 weeks?

Mm-hmm.

Alternatively, there's people who are so tired of being pregnant that they're like, this is, this is out there.

I believe it.

Let's do it.

You know, and like, sign me up.

And so I do think it's just important to recognize that that data is out there.

I mean, there's.

A lot of people who have complained about some of its limitations, like you talked about as well.

This idea of, well also what about at 40 weeks or 40, what, you know, like what it, the gap between like a 39 week induction or a 41 week induction?

Like there's a lot of data and a lot of bursts in between there.

And what would those tell us as well?

You mentioned plan or not plan, the idea of like unplanned C-section, because I think with induction that, a huge part of that conversation too is.

If I am induced, does that increase my chance of C-section, the arrive trial address, some of that as some of their outcomes.

So what do you talk to your patients about when that is part of this induction decision conversation and them saying, I don't want a C-section.

So how does that play into this induction choice?

Dr. Hunter: So it, some of this is, have you had a baby before and have you not?

When you look at induction success, meaning have a vaginal delivery from a never had a baby before instance.

There's a been a lot of studies done that kind of tell us, Hey, if you show up in labor, meaning cervical change, you're in having regular contractions, your chance of a C-section is much lower than if you showed up.

Doing Starbucks is closed and needing an induction, it is sometimes very, very difficult.

Can take days.

Close cervix to four centimeters.

Like

to four.

Just

Dr. Hunter: four.

Yeah, just four.

Like

I

Dr. Hunter: know a long time.

Right?

So you're just like praying like, Lord, it's four, please.

So it's just like, it can take a while.

And some of the, the data does not talk about, this is what I've seen is some people just over it.

Like they just from a mental standpoint feel like they just cannot handle more.

right.

Two days of going from zero to four makes it seem like going from four to 10 is.

Unattainable.

So there's some, there's some of that in there too.

There's fatigue, a fatigue factor.

Some hospitals don't let people eat.

Some do.

So there's an energy, a fatigue, a a. I can't really, this is just too much for me that's built into that.

And I think that's where some of the numbers come from.

But if you have had a child before and you either need to be induced or you want to be, then the success rate is higher because your body is proven that it can do it.

your body, and when you

say success rate, you're talking about a vaginal delivery,

Dr. Hunter: right?

Correct.

Yes.

Yes.

Vaginal delivery.

Yes.

Thank you.

Because I also do hate the term success rate 'cause it is quoted out there, but I'm like, it's successful just having a child, like just getting pregnant.

Delivering a baby is successful, but yes, vaginal delivery.

So it, it, it's different and it's different for each person.

So the more.

Vaginal deliveries.

You've had the higher rate of vaginal delivery in the future, even with an induction.

And the time from start of induction to delivery also can become much shorter too.

So I've had some people who've had three kids before all induced fourth induction.

I give 'em this pill called misoprostol and they deliver like six hours later.

They go from one to 10 and boom, have a baby.

And like that's also reality too.

So the history is super important, especially with prior births, and I think that's an important part of the conversation that sometimes goes missing.

Okay.

That's great.

I mean, I, I think I would say like the, the majority, if not everyone, that that is the primary.

Outcome.

Not everyone I, I mean, obviously if we're talking about later term or stillbirth, like that being a fear as well, but it just feels like that cesarean conversation

mm-hmm.

Is just hand in hand, like tied right next to the induction conversation, no matter like who you're talking to.

So ultimately I feel like what I'm hearing is the gift of having a provider who will walk through these things with you and let you decide.

I mean, again and again, we keep reiterating that.

That's the gift, right, of saying, here's the data, here's some anecdotal stuff, so this isn't data.

Here's personal feeling.

How are you feeling like putting all four of those things together is just such, yeah, it's such such a gift when you're making a choice like this.

The last thing I wanted to ask you about, related to induction and maybe those who are saying, Hey, can we delay right now, or, I just don't think I'm quite there yet, and I realize this might depend on the reason for a recommended induction or whatever, but what are some other.

Options for them in the interim, this idea of maybe MSTs or screenings or BPPI, you don't have to get really technical about all of them.

Mm-hmm.

But what are some things maybe that are good knowledge for them to have if they're thinking, I wanna pay attention to what's going on, but I also don't wanna induce yet today.

What are, what are some of those?

Dr. Hunter: So just like you said, fetal monitoring is huge and we have good data about the, if the monitoring is reassuring, meaning everything looks beautiful, then the likelihood of your baby looking good over the next week is high.

It's not perfect, but it's what we have.

So you can always, to me, I think.

If you make the decision to say, Hey, I don't wanna be induced right now, but someone is strongly suggesting it and you wanna put it off a week, a good middle ground is, Hey, can I, can I get monitoring on my baby?

Can I it?

And the monitoring is basically just.

Putting your baby on the monitor, looking at what the baby, seeing what the baby looks like in the monitor.

And then ultrasound, looking at different factors on the ultrasound to tell us how well baby's doing.

Because sometimes when you do that, you'll catch things, right?

Baby can have low fluid, the heart rate is not really looking too, too hot.

And then that's a different, now we're having different conversation and I think monitoring in between is beautiful and you can do monitoring.

Two times a week if it's more high risk setting or once weekly, and you can do it every single week until you show up for delivery.

And I think that's totally fine.

Now, every facility, the way they do it is different.

I used to work at a place where you, many people would go to the hospital to do their monitoring and then after they would come up to the office and you would talk about the results of everything.

So, you know, everyone does it a little different, but.

That is a a, a big option.

The one thing I would tell everyone not to do is don't get mad at the suggestion of an induction and just disappear and then decide to show up to labor and delivery a month later because that is asking for drama around a delivery that you don't want at all.

Yeah.

So I would say, yeah.

No, that's perfect.

'cause I think that's what I wanted people to hear, and this is.

If you're someone saying like, I respect all these thing reasons they've talked about, but I, if it were me, I think I'd still, you know, wanna delay.

Well, there's options to continue to pay attention to things, but still, you know, try to get things going at home like that there's, that, you don't have to just disappear.

I think sometimes I hear the statement float around of this idea of if they're scheduling your induction, that means you don't need one.

Right?

And so.

There's a lot to unpack there, I think.

But that idea of like, oh, well if they're doing it in three days, then that means I don't need it at all.

And, and, and just saying, Hey, if they think you need it in three days, maybe talk to them.

If you don't want it in three days, talk to 'em about what to do over the next seven days after that or something.

And not just have it be such a thi, like a black and white thing where it's like, well, nah, just zero.

Let's just do zero.

And again, it depends on why and, and what the reasonings are for it, but that there's.

Often some options in the in between if your choice is no, not right now or not in two days or, or whatever.

So,

Dr. Hunter: and sometimes the days they suggest is just a scheduling thing, right?

They know, they looking at the schedule and like, Ooh, we can't do it on the weekend.

I know there's something going on this day, yada y.

So if that's a, if it's a scheduling thing, like you can get around that.

Like that is.

Different conversation, but you don't know until you ask too.

So that's why I usually to tell people like, you know, if you have a date in mind, tell them.

If you are like, I want to get to this point in my pregnancy, let them know.

'cause then you can have a realistic conversation.

Well, I don't think you're gonna be able to get there because of blah, blah, blah, blah.

Or, oh yeah, we could change it to this day.

Let me ask.

You know, so that's, that's.

It's just, you just have to be open and just don't disappear after face the earth.

Like show up, like go back, maybe find a different person to talk to if you're angry, just to, so that we can still take care of both you and baby and make sure everything's going well.

Yeah.

Here's my reminder too, that if you pick a date for an induction, it doesn't also mean the baby will be born that day.

So just remember that.

Maybe.

I hope so.

Dr. Hunter: Yes,

but maybe not if you're picking the perfect birthday.

Dr. Hunter: I know I had somebody who was trying to pick, like based on the, the calendar and astrology.

Yeah.

Dr. Hunter: And I was like, mm. Lemme tell you something, your baby cares, uh, this much about any of that.

Yep.

This much

My kids love the stories of babies born on.

I mean, this happened like twice, but like they twins born on different days or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm like, you guys, you can't control it.

Like.

One ti you know, sometimes they pop out and then the other one comes like, you just, you can't really control what's gonna happen with that timing or that idea of pushing at 11:59 PM and it's like, hmm, sorry you wanted it today.

It's not happening, or whatever.

So just, yeah, just a little reminder of how it might go.

Dr. Hunter: And I delivered babies on two different days, so I, I,

yeah, myself

Dr. Hunter: have

done that.

So It's wild.

Dr. Hunter: Yeah, it's

crazy.

One time I was the nurse for twins and yeah.

we ended up having to, yeah.

Do Pitocin to get the second one to come down mm-hmm.

And deliver like the first one we delivered in the or.

'cause that's often how you do it.

Yeah.

And then put her back in the room and did Pitocin and the other baby came later.

It was the craziest thing.

So I love that.

That was one time, but you know, it could happen.

Okay.

Do you have like anything else that you're like, Ooh, I want this plugged into this conversation that we just had that we didn't cover?

Dr. Hunter: I, the only extra thing I would say is I think.

The nice thing about pregnancy and the beautiful part about it is that you have options.

You have lots of them, and you have the ability to find people that make you comfortable and that you feel comfortable with.

And my other big plug is.

The way pregnancy is seen and, and the way women are seen, the way we take care of is changing, the way reimbursement is happening is changing.

And that's gonna change the way we have conversation around prenatal care and how we now have been pushing people to deliver.

Like, if you're seeing me, I would want you to deliver where I deliver.

But some people will see me and say, I'm planning to deliver at this other hospital, and it from a provider standpoint.

From a billing standpoint, most companies practices don't like that because of, billing.

But that's gonna change soon.

Hopefully they finish doing what they're doing.

So the ability to choose more providers is going to open up.

And to see someone during a pregnancy and to deliver the place you feel comfortable with will go hand in hand, I think, a little bit more.

And I'm just excited about what's coming, but I also want people to know, like you, you do not have to be married to one person that you're seeing, like you're allowed to shop around like we actually expected.

And that's okay.

And that's totally fine to find someone you are very comfortable with and they may be out of network, but.

If you're comfortable, great.

Well, Dr. Hunter, we cannot have the insurance conversation right now.

I know.

'cause that would take far too long.

Listen, I But you know, guys shop for provider.

That's okay.

That's what he's saying.

Hopefully they deliver where you wanna deliver.

Look into that.

'cause it doesn't always light up.

Yes, hopefully it will.

Dr. Hunter: Yes.

Insurance is another podcast.

Not by me.

Not by me.

Dr. Hunter: Yes.

Yes, Lord.

Okay.

Will you tell everyone where they can find you on social media like I did?

Dr. Hunter: Oh, sure.

Yeah.

So I'm on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube.

you could just look up literally Dr. DR Ahan, a HAN, hunter, and you'll find me all, all, all platforms.

Okay.

Do you have a website?

Are you doing other things?

Obviously you're practicing and seeing patients and delivering babies, but is that could be out

Dr. Hunter: there?

Website is is in the works, the process.

I haven't done it yet.

I'm partnering with my wife to do some stuff, so, she's a nurse herself, so we're trying to do some things.

So that's to come.

Sounds good.

We'll put a pin in that.

One last question.

I love asking, what's something in your life right now?

It can be big, small, anything that's just bringing you a lot of joy.

Dr. Hunter: I, for the first time have signed up to be a soccer coach for my son's soccer team, and I have never done this before.

Do I know a lot about soccer.

I know enough and, but I'm just so excited because I, I know how much my son enjoys, like being outside soccer, all the thing.

He's nine years old and my baby, the 3-year-old is also gonna play too, but I'm not.

Doing his team.

'cause I can't, mental patients don't have it, but nine year olds I can do.

So I'm super ex. I'm so excited.

Actually,

I'm excited for you.

My husband just started doing that with our kids a couple years ago, I'd say like two years ago.

And he loves coaching those kids so much.

Our oldest is nine and then we have three more underneath that.

So we've done, we have some younger ages he's done, but he loves it.

I mean, the way your face just lit up, I'm like, that's how his face looks, so I hope you love it.

Mm-hmm.

It seems like the sweetest, sweetest thing really for both of you.

Dr. Hunter: Yeah, and it, it is crazy like I'm an OB GYN that does do 24 hour call, but somehow I have time to go.

Coach soccer during the weekend, on the weekend, so I'm so, I'm like geared up.

I'm so excited.

My brain was wondering how you're gonna make that work with your schedule, but you'll figure it out.

It's gonna be great.

Thank you for giving me an hour of your time.

I know you are busy and a dad and all the thanks, so I really do appreciate it.

Dr. Hunter: No problem.

No, thank you for having me.

I truly appreciate it.

I'm glad to be the first guy.

Hopefully more to come.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the plan.

Thanks, Dr.

Thank you so much for listening to the Lo and Behold podcast.

I hope there was something for you in today's episode that made you think, made you laugh or made you feel seen.

For show notes and links to the resources, freebies, or discount codes mentioned in this episode, please head over to lo and behold podcast.com.

If you aren't following along yet, make sure to tap, subscribe, or follow in your podcast app so we can keep hanging out together.

And if you haven't heard it yet today, you're doing a really good job.

A little reminder for you before you go, opinions shared by guests of this show are their own, and do not always reflect those of myself in the Labor Mama platform.

Additionally, the information you hear on this podcast or that you receive via any linked resources should not be considered medical advice.

Please see our full disclaimer at the link in your show notes.