Business attorney Mitchell Beinhaker, ESQ, has run his solo law firm for 30 years. 29 years into his entrepreneurial mindset, he started a podcast called The Accidental Entrepreneur. In our interview with Mitchell, he talks about why he started his podcast, how to start and grow a business, and finally how to start and grow a podcast as part of the marketing for your company. (Hint: The key is to not make the podcast about your business. Make it about interesting people with stories to tell.)

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Disruptive Podcasting

Hey there, I'm Tiffany Youngren host of Next Up

Nation where we help podcasters and YouTubers with vision become

preeminently sought leaders in their industries. You are about

to have the opportunity to listen as we dig into the why,

who and what of a podcasters show, then stay tuned because at

the end, we're gonna identify one powerful how one action that

he can take for results in the next 30 days. Today, I am so

excited to welcome Mitch Beinhaker, host of the

accidental entrepreneur. Hey, Mitch, welcome.

Hello!

Hey, thanks for coming. The accidental

entrepreneur has released 160 episodes from February 29 until

the day of this recording, which is July 14 of 2021. Mitch is a

corporate attorney and business advisor who runs a solo legal

and consulting practice representing business owners,

entrepreneurs, executives and professionals. And I have to say

I love your show. So I'm so excited to have you here. Yeah,

so you I'm sure you have a lot of them. Why did you start the

accidental entrepreneur?

Well, two reasons. One, I mean, I just

like you, I've listened to tons and tons of podcasts. And as a

lawyer, we're kind of bad at like, digital marketing and you

know, putting out content and we put up these billboards that not

billboards put up these websites that are like billboards on a

highway that nobody's driving down. It's just like

informational stuff. So one day, I think I must have been like a

Pat Flynn video or, you know, something like that, where it

was like, you can start a podcast for 75 bucks. I was

like, Don't you need like a studio with like, boom mics and

sound people and stuff like that. So we bought I had

partners at the time. And we bought the I feel like I tell

the story all the time. But we bought the equipment, it was

really crappy. You listen to the early days, I like had to clean

up all the audio, it was like with this little USB mics and

things. So then I was like, Well, what am I going to do?

Like, what am I going to say I don't want to like talk and like

write a script like every week or so months, or whatever I was

doing it then now we do twice a week. So I didn't really know

what to do. And I had a lot of clients who would come to me

small business owners. And as the lawyer they come to you

like, I mean, sometimes they come at the beginning, but often

they come like I got a problem. Like I had to close the business

or whatever. And I'm like, What do you mean, didn't you just

open like, six months ago. So there was a lot of cleanup. So

then I was talking to my friend Jack, who's my guest for my

first two episodes. By the way, amazing story, if you hear his

whole thing, which half of which I didn't even know even though I

knew him very long time. And I said, Come to my office, we're

going to do this podcast. He's like, Well, what's a what's a

podcast? Because he's the one who introduced me to zoom. He's

like, 80 years old. But so like, for two and a half hours a week,

he told me his whole life story. And he turns out, he went to my

high school, not when I was born, but and the whole thing.

So I made it, excuse me into two episodes. Because two and a half

hours is much too long. I'm not Joe Rogan. And I started from

there. And I'm like, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm going to

interview people, I find people interesting. They have good

stories to tell half of them don't think that but they do.

They have good things to share with people, I don't have to

prepare a lot in all honesty, right? So I don't have to make

up all these questions. And so I just take them through their

story. And then the accidental name came from, I think I saw

remember that movie, The Accidental Tourist with William

Hurt, there must have been like something posted on Netflix or

whatever. And I'm trying to think of a name. And I'm like,

That's the accidental entrepreneur, like that's what

these people are doing. They're like going to business by

accident, because they get laid off. They're failing, because

they don't do anything like purposeful, which you were

talking about before, like doing things purposefully to push your

business forward. And that's like where the name came from.

And it just kind of stuck.

That's awesome. That is so good. And it

you know, one of the things I read I can't remember if I read

it or saw it on your show, but you had mentioned that, you

know, you're you're an attorney who works with businesses and

like you kind of alluded to is that you end up talking to them

after something happens. Yeah, instead of being able to have

them be a little bit more deliberate so that those things

Yea, we go to doctors, when we're sick. And

don't happen

we go to lawyers, when we have legal problems. We generally

don't do it the other way around.

So probably feels good. Just being able to be proactive in

that. Yeah, journey from there for awhile.

I feel like I'm doing that with a podcast, trying to put

information out there just like you're doing to get people to

kind of do things the right way to start. And then maybe they

won't, they'll have more of a chance of success. I'm not gonna

win attorney. I'm not gonna guarantee you.

It's been recorded, but yeah, big moment,

right. Yeah, there we go. That I don't usually do gotchas, but

exactly. So, one of the things that you told me before your

interview is, the one thing that you wanted from your show is to

help entrepreneurs make better decisions with their business,

right? Number one, why do you think that that's so important

and number two Oh, can you give me an example of that

Sure, w ell, it's very important because like I said, a

lot of people just, you know, they dive in, they don't really

plan things, they don't have strategic plans, they don't have

written plans, forget about it. And as a lawyer, you know,

that's my pet peeve, you have to do business, if you're a

professional, I don't mean a professional, like a doctor or a

lawyer. But if you're a professional, and you're doing

this, like for a living, you have to do it in writing, I

mean, you got to do you have to have client agreements, and you

have to vendor agreements, and you have to have a partnership

or agreement. And you have to have a business plan. It doesn't

have to be graphs and charts, it could be parts of a business

plan is something you work off of, and write your ideas down in

journal and you know, things like that. So people, you know,

need to kind of take it seriously when it if it's a

hobby, that's fine. But if it's a really, really a business, you

want it to be and you want to be successful, people have failed,

and they get there's a high rate of failure in business. And

generally, it's because people just don't take the time to

learn the things they need to do to be successful. They're not

things that you and I like are special at, and other people

can't do them. It's just that they don't do it. And you had

mentioned before about creativity, and I'm the same way

entrepreneurs, we're all right brain, and we're doing our

marketing and making our website, we're all excited and

this and that. But we don't take the time to look at the data, to

put the numbers together to figure out oh, this is a great

idea. But I'm not even I can't even make money. If I price it

this way. And learn those things, and it ends up being too

late. So the one piece of advice I can give people is it if they

come up with a business idea thought they're working with

somebody they want to start a business is early as possible

sit down and start to write a business plan. There's simple

templates out there, there's the Lean Canvas, one page type of

thing, I have a four part, you know template that have boiled

down to score has a very good template. So just it doesn't

have to be complete. But it's a start. It's a place where you

can go back to and not forget the ideas you had. And maybe

they didn't work and work through those edit. People don't

do that they don't do the market research, don't ask the

questions. You know, they've come up with a product and you

open your store. And your best friend walks in and says, Oh,

Tiffany, I just saw that on eBay, like three weeks ago,

you're like you did? And now what? You know, now what do you

do? So there's a lot of that. So you know, be purposeful and plan

things be a planner? And I know not everybody's like that. But

if you want to be successful, those are the things you have to

get good at.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, um, one of the

things that I that we talked about beforehand is that I'll be

going through the why, who and what of your show. So I love

your why I think it's so helpful. I could not agree more.

You know, I've been an entrepreneur for a really,

really long time, by now. And and I've helped a lot of

entrepreneurs, and I would you know, wholeheartedly agree and

appreciate that you do that. So let's talk a little bit about

your ideal audience. Have you really identified speaking of

doing research and a business plan? Who is your ideal

listener?

In my mind, my ideal listener is somebody

looking to get started in business, or they're a small

business owner, and they're looking for ideas and stories

about people that have tried things and have failed or have

failed their way to success. And the advice that they can get in

the podcast as to who I'm reaching, that's like the

hardest analytics is who you're reaching, you know, so, I mean,

I'm reaching people all over the world, there's no question about

it. I don't know if you know, I don't know who's listening. I

know, a lot of people are listening. And I know who I

bring on the show. And I know why I do it. I just, I don't

know if if I'm reaching the right audience, you try and put

you know, the keywords and the this that on it. So hopefully

people search for entrepreneurship and, you know,

small business advice and things like that, and maybe the right

people listen to that's my ideal, you know, person that I'd

like to reach the person so they make the right decisions early

on.

Yeah, well, and that's ultimately what we

have control over. Right, is who we want to listen to our show.

Yeah. And so that's the content we focus on is like the you

know, because you can gear your messaging towards those people.

Yeah, of course, you're going to attract a broader audience than

that. Right? The more targeted we are really the more attracted

people are to what we have to say. So I think that that's

really good. So so so your your target audience are people who

are thinking of starting a show or thinking of business are

starting

to show yeah, they are. So yeah, people

have started No, also people that have been in business for a

while and they don't feel like they have a good grip on their

business. And they want to be more purposeful and increase the

chance of them being successful. And learn from the people that

are coming on the show, whether they're marketing people,

inventors, other entrepreneurs, authors, you know, things like

that, and I think I think your point is a good one. I think

that people what they what they try to do is to, you know, learn

from all the things that are out there. And I hope that the

message that I'm putting out is, you know, fits that, that kind

of genre. And I think that, like you had said, being purposeful

or not being perfect tailoring the stuff you put out there and

your message and the people you bring on the show and paying

attention to that I learned on very early on that if you want

to be successful in podcasting, you should stick to your

message, you should make sure that the people come on, on as

the show, don't kind of take you off the rails, because that's

how you lose your audience. And then they're like, oh, I don't

want to learn about watermelon growing in Wisconsin, so I'm not

gonna listen anymore.

Just because they asked on Facebook, if they could be on

your show. They shouldn't necessarily be on your show.

Right?

Yeah, I definitely have turned down people's Well, first of all

people that I don't know anything about what they do. And

it's not, it's not really a business, I'll show my the guest

and the going other shows and whatever, but I don't. And then

there's some people that I've met who are just, you know, kind

of futzing around I say, because my terms, so I just don't think

I can make a good show out of it. So therefore, I won't bring

them on, you know,

well, and that's really the where the

message comes in, like you were saying, where if you know what

you're, in fact, that leads me into the next part where what I

call the audience promise. So typically, if we have something

where we're like, you know, if you listen to my show, for any

length of time, you're gonna go from here to here. So the first

part of that is just understanding Well, number one,

understanding our audience, but then number two, understanding

what problem you're solving for them, you have, do you have kind

of an idea of the problem that you're solving for your ideal

audience.

I think that if you listen to a lot of the episodes,

because we had said, I've done recorded, I don't know, 180,

some odd, so 160 or out or something like that. A lot of

it's been a learning process. For me, too, I probably could

write a book on all the lessons, or probably should write a book

like 100 lessons learned or something or first 100 guests.

But yeah, I think that there are, you know, things that as a

business owner, you can do, and they're consistent in terms of

being successful. And you see that with people who are

successful in multiple businesses, like there are

people that and I may be getting a little bit off your question.

But there are people that are good at one thing, like they

figure out whatever it is the business that they're running,

and then when they sell the business, or the industry

changes, or whatever, and they shift, they buy a new business,

or they start a new business, they're not that successful. So

I hope that the people that are listening, and the message that

I'm getting across is, you know, consistent enough to give them

the skills and the tools to be able, you know, to apply it to

almost any kind of business, you know, and and a lot of it comes

with, like I mentioned before, and I speak about this all the

time, I'm working on a book with a co author called 10 ways to

get sued by anyone and everyone. It's funny, it's, it's, well,

he's doing this 10 ways here. So we came up with like, a funny

name, a catchy name, but it's about the things that you should

do. So you don't get into trouble. And I consistently see

people doing things off the cuff, like, they rely on their

memory. And it's been proven that our memories are very

fallible, very inconsistent. We don't have this like filing

cabinet in our head, we have like a box where things get

thrown in, and now they're sticky notes in there, and they

get stuck to the wrong memories. And, you know, you and I swear

that this is what we, you know, we're arguing over what our

agreement is, and you really believe what you're saying. And

I really believe what I'm saying. But our minds don't, you

know, work properly. I was with a friend of mine I haven't seen

in years, we went to high school, we actually knew each

other from third grade and his wife I went to college with, we

were talking about things and I was like really did that? Is

that how it happened? Like we totally had different memories

of things that happened. And that's one of the mistakes that

business owners make. You have to make it a habit to do

whatever you're doing, in writing. With your partner with

your business plan with the people that you do business

with. I've had people say to me, oh, you know, I feel

uncomfortable working with a client or customer like whipping

out this agreement. So I said, well, first of all, if you look

at it that way, like you're whipping something out, that's

not gonna go well. So you need to develop a process that you're

comfortable with, where you bring up the contract, which

says what you charge and when you can waive it. And just

because you waive it doesn't mean they don't know it in the

future. And it when they can cancel and when they can't

cancel and all those types of because they all get in trouble.

They get in trouble with customers because not writing.

Big, big, big problem.

Yeah. Well, and you know, it's so true,

because after a while you realize that that moment,

they're like, I would never forget that this is what we

talked about. You're like

that's what they say and they've probably grown

anyway, but they're so adamant. And I remember because we were

walking here and that bird shit dropped on your head and so I

remember Yeah, no, probably not right, by the way. So

Okay, so do you know so? So what? Just so

that I have I make sure that I'm really clear, what is the

problem that you're solving for your ideal? Your ideal listener?

Yeah, I

don't know if it's, if it's the same for

all the all the listeners, it's really, you know, I am, I am

trying to help people increase their chances of being

successful. Okay, that's the goal of the show. And the advice

for everybody's gonna fail,

and you're trying to bridge that gap. So that

person, right, because they don't do things planned out. So

maybe I'm helping to make them better planners to put things in

writing. I mean, everybody's got kind of a different problem. But

the problem is, their success rate is very low. So

ultimately, the problem is, is you don't want them to fail.

Like you don't

ultimately Yeah, to get a hold of that's the tagline. I think

we were we share I our ideas and help you get a hold of your

business. Got it as people are just, you know, you know, the

way it is you walk in your business one day, and

everything's on fire. Yeah. And you had in your mind, like four

or five things you were going to do and you don't get to any of

them. Yeah, yeah, their habits, you know, form better habits to

be successful.

Love it. Love it. Yeah. So and then, in Sorry,

I keep doing this. I just for myself, I believe the audience

promises one of the best things we could do for our show,

because I feel like number one, we know who we're talking to.

It's kind of like, when we're on social media, or just talking to

everybody we're talking to nobody, you know, literally, you

feel it, like you see those posts, you're like, you know,

you're just shouting out the sky. Yeah. And, um, and, you

know, good content will carry a show. But an audience promise

fulfilled, will really accelerate that, like, it really

takes it is like, because then it's like, you are the Sherpa,

you know, you're, you're the one that people are ready to follow.

Because you're like, Oh, they're like, Oh, you get me. Number

one, you know who I am, you see me. And number two, this is

where I'm at right now. And then that's where I want to go. Like,

I want to jump over that bridge with you, because I believe you

can get me there. And I know with your show, like you

interview amazing people. Again, the episodes that I listened to

the content was amazing, great tips, just really actionable.

And the people that you interview are very knowledgeable

in the area, as are you, which makes for better, you know, we

all know, like if you, you know, you know, the entrepreneurial

space, but you're bringing on experts that you're able to ask

better questions, because you know enough about it. So no.

But that's probably something that I could

work on. Because I think that's good advice. I don't know if I'm

that clear. Like in my mind, I know what the promise is. And I

know what I'm talking about why we're sharing this information.

But maybe it'd be more helpful to listeners to be more clear

about that. Yeah, well, you're nice, I appreciate it,

even knowing yourself, like even to go. You

know, because you do solve different problems. But

ultimately, it solves one problem. So it's like, there's

no question, you have a map and there are 10 roads that are

going to get you to the same place. As long as you're going

to the same town, you know, goes you're going in the right

direction, exactly that same kind of concept. So one person

might need help with contracts, one person might need help with

mindset when we all need help with mindset. But you know, as

long as all those roads are leading in the same direction,

then someone knows that they can flip on your show. And that's

going to take them to that same place. Somehow, it might just be

a different topic. So that they're not listening to it

going. I don't want to hear about contracts, like this is an

attorney. And of course, he's talking about contracts, you

know, but you don't just talk about that. And you talk about

that, but you it's relevant. And so by giving a more holistic

approach is what you're doing. It makes the contracts

irrelevant, because a business in business needs contracts, you

know,

things in writing,

so awesome. Okay, okay. Well, let's, um,

real quick, before I move off of the WHO part of things. What do

you do now to evaluate whether or not your content is

resonating? Have you made adjustments based on any

feedback that you've gotten? How's your engagement?

Yeah, I mean, my engagement is more been

through my networks of people, you know, because I network and

connect with people. Well, now all over the world, because the

zoom and I do get a lot of feedback on guests. Sometimes I

wish people were more honest. I mean, not everybody can love

everything that they hear on the show. They're like, I love your

show. I'm like, well, that's great. Do you have any

criticisms or you know, anything you didn't like? And I do get

some people that say, Well, I didn't love that guest or, you

know, there was somebody who had posted something totally

anonymously and I don't know, it was something like you talk too

much. And it was one of those So that's where I kept kind of

interrupting the guy because he was going all over the place

like, and I knew consciously it was funny that I got that

feedback, because I knew consciously this show was like

going off the rails, you know, and I would pull it back and

then make a comment, whatever. So, but yeah, I mean, I try to

give feedback all the time. Whenever I'm talking to people

meeting people, when a guest on other shows, I like to see what

they do I, I also participate in a couple of podcast things, not

only the online ones, if you heard a pod Max global, know the

guys at pod or I'll have to connect you with Josh and an

Eric over there that's on air brands. And pod Max is like a

day, where actually, you could probably be one of our keynote

speakers where we spend a day now on Zoom, you interview three

people, and then there's a speaker, or you could also be a

host. So you could you could I mean, you could always be a

guest. So you either guest on three podcasts, or you could be

a host and interview three people. Plus there's all kinds

of breakout rooms and things like that. One day, I'll connect

you off offline.

Yeah, that'd be fun. That'd be fun. Yeah. So how do you measure

your audience?

I don't know. How do we measure an audience?

I love that question. Because I it's so loaded. I'm always just

sitting here going, Oh,

yeah. Well do. That's a good question. They don't know. Like,

I don't know, from my intellect, like, how do I measure my

audience? I know, I've had about eight or 9000 downloads over the

two years, but like four or 500 downloads a month, I have no

idea. How do you do that? Tell me.

Okay, so there's no silver bullet. So I'm

just gonna say that first. As we all know, podcasting, it feels

like a minute ago was brand new. And people were asking us when

we when we asked him to be on their show our show, they would

say, what's a podcast? Why would I want to be on a podcast?

And then less like, 12 seconds?

Exactly. And so then it, then the great pivot

of 2020 came and everybody is doing a podcast. So the beauty

of that is that the analytics are improving, our technologies

are improving very, very rapidly. So what I say right now

will probably change and so but with that, I will I will say

that number one, analytics, it's kind of I'm not one of those

who's ever been chasing algorithms. I've been doing SEO

for a long time. If you have good content, you're reaching

the right people. If you're getting if you're getting leads,

and you're making money, and you're getting the right kind of

clients, people are contacting you, and you're like, Thank you,

you're exactly the right person to be like, you're doing it

right, right. I don't care if I have 1000, or 520. Quite

honestly, all I need are just a few people that I get in touch

with that I'm making relationships with, I used to do

a show, I talked to you before beforehand about our real estate

show. And I only cared about who was listening for my guests.

Like for myself, I only wanted to meet my guest. Right. So so

but I you know, we do a lot of promotion. So for that I didn't

even I wasn't even watching downloads as I was watching, how

much social media are we getting out there? You know, so, being

able to have a podcast and create all this content. You

know, we had a blog and social media and websites that we

developed and email campaigns, we were always making editorial

calendars and all this. And then I had a, an inspection company

that we had for a client we were in it was in Northwest

Washington. And we had to do articles on mold. Because guess

what, it's the biggest problem in an inspection is mold. One, I

guess they'll there's a lot but

yeah, no, but that's a big issue. Yeah,

and every time, we would use high level sources for all of

our articles, and it never was right. They were always just

like, No, that's not how we handle it, you know, I don't

care that that's what this organism, you know, like it was

on the Today Show or you know, or if it was on some study, like

they have their own studies. And you know, this is who they

listened to. So finally, I interviewed them. And I did a

couple interviews, I made up a whole bunch of questions,

because I know what everybody asks about mold, and plus, we

had keywords. And so then we wrote a bunch of articles. And

so basically, with our podcasting, we've done something

similar. And so kind of back to the original topic, which is how

do you measure your audience? Well, it depends on what your

goals are. If you I think downloads are a vanity metric,

that the end like that's

give me a badge when I hit 5000 wasn't

5000 a month?

Some sponsors only look at downloads. So some,

you know, like when I was doing when I was working with real

estate agents, they wanted to know how many people am I

reaching? That was a beautiful question, because I could tell

them well, we get it out on social media, you get social

media content. So again, it's like anything else we do in

business. We're like, What is your problem? And how can I

solve it? So downloads very rarely, unless it has to do with

advertising solves anybody's problem. Right? Advertisers are

ridiculous. that that and I'm just gonna say it out loud is

ridiculous. All they care about. They don't know what else to

look at. That's all it is. It's like,

even know, Tiffany, if somebody's listening

to your podcast, let's say they don't download, so they stream

it. Do the analytics, pick that up as a download.

I'm on Lipson, and they count streams. So we

can see maybe pod bean, I am and one thing will lead into and is

this whole blog post situation like blog posts are the number

one way to promote your show the quickest, the longest term, they

live forever.

And you can log on my website, I do it all

for each episode. Yeah, this content, they still can really

crawl through audio and video files yet, right? I mean, these

will be written word.

Well, I mean, there's, you know, really geeky

ways that they do. But that's such a minor thing. At the end

of the day, like you can do every piece of metadata and all

that kind of geeky stuff. At the end of the day, people are

looking for a topic, they're going to find your podcast, and

they're going to listen to you. So when we embed that player

into our blog post, I want to know that that got listened to

because we put so much effort into it. So we do get blocked.

So we're able to see like, okay, so when people are going to our

blog post is that, are we getting as many downloads as we

would imagine that we would be getting? Now having said all

that, numbers matter. So if you're not getting like when

you're starting out, it's just you're just not going to get a

lot of numbers. So we're not right. Yeah. So your guests are

a big, you know, big asset when it comes to it. And then then

you lead into the whole numbers thing. So, so that probably

didn't really it like that's how I measured? It's like, I don't

Yeah, I mean, I do because I sucker like everybody I'm like,

Okay, so what's my, you know, I know the average, I think the

last time I checked, I don't even know what the app, they ask

me the question. I have no idea. It's 145 in the first 30 days,

at one point was the average. I think that that's really high. I

don't think that that's accurate, since the big flood of

people into podcasting. But anyway, so I'm super happy that

you're on that page, too. I think that that's the best thing

you could have said, well, I

mean, I think it's content marketing for

me. But now that I've had been doing this for two and a half

years, I do know that it's valuable to the people coming

on. So I always want them to, you know, to look good to sound

good. And then I tried to pull a hook out of that you hear the

way I do it. It's like the NPR format, or whatever, I pull out

a hook at the beginning to like, get people interested in the

book because I'm trying to promote their business. And then

in return, it promotes what I'm doing. So I didn't have that at

the beginning of two episodes out, what are you offering, and

14 people on your mailing list, I got 2700 people on my mailing

list. So it takes a while. It's definitely a long haul. You got

to be committed to it. But my understanding Tiffany is that

there, there's not a lot of podcasts that that stay the

course. It's only 20 or 30%. A lot of people put out a couple

episodes, they do something they drop off, they stopped doing it

the people that are really in it, not to win it, but in it to

stay in the game. And to keep you know, crafting all this good

stuff is still a minority portion of the industry. Yeah,

right or am I wrong?

No, you're 100%. Right. Last I checked, it

was three out of five quit. There you go. Yeah, exactly.

But, you know, I think it's fair to say to that we have to have

some kind of analytics. So when we're looking at it, it's just

important to understand that it's not just about downloads,

so don't be discouraged. And even the most massive podcaster

of today, had nobody listening for a year. I don't know if I've

heard I mean, unless you're famous. So I always say like, in

fact, they I tried to say this early in, in the

interview with Joe Rogan started out with

payments. I don't

know, because he was no big list when he

started. Yeah. But but at the end of the day, it's like, I'm

not famous, Are you famous? No. Yeah, I'm gonna assume that

you're not famous. So this is what the rest of us have to do.

And even the ones who are getting, you know, six figures,

downloads, they started somewhere, and they have some

story of how they made it past that first year. Right. So, at

the end of the day, though, too, is we do have to look at

something to know, like, are people listening? What are what

are they responding to? You know, I'm sure that you know,

over this time you've made adjustments. Have you made any

adjustments and it hasn't been in response to either feedback

or what you've seen in your numbers?

Yeah, well, you know, one of the data

analytics that I do like is like the regional data, the

geographic data, like you can see like wow, this person from

Australia downloaded my podcasters somebody from Iceland

you know, that's it's interesting, but I think along

the way, very early on, I got to the point where I said listen, I

have to have like a format as to how I put at least the audio I

don't edit the video I put it up with a thumbnail and that's it

but the audio side I was like well this is going to kill me to

do and I have some people helped me with the the video I mean,

the editing, but I mean I'm a lawyer, I don't have a

production company. So some of it I like to do myself. So I, I

put together a template as the way I want to do it. I did some

research as to what formats are out there. That's why I found

NPR how to format a podcast and what they their opinions were

because I listen to a lot of their podcasts. And I came up

with this processor, this template. So it's basically the

same every time. But I do tweak it because now I've put in now

Mike sponsors are really just affiliate sponsors. They're not

people that pay me to do the show, I make money, if they sell

their products, I make very little but those mid roll

commercials in the opening and stuff that I've put together and

I move those around and adjusted things, but for the most part

now, haven't tweaked a lot of stuff. In terms of the format

for a while. I told you the idea of doing a series of different

industries, I'm doing that but so far, I haven't tweaked the

format. I just I have it. It's a checklist. I do it, I just move

on to the next thing.

Awesome. Awesome. Okay, so let's, um,

let's talk a little bit about what so I want to talk about the

things that you're doing that are working. And what have you

seen to be the most effective ways to attract listeners and so

far?

Yeah, so that's, that's kind of evolved

when I before the pandemic, right, because I could do things

in person. And then with Zoom was, I didn't do it on, on

video, people would literally like with it, you know, this

thing here. So they would come to my office, I got another one

at the end of the table. They would sit there and we record it

on Audacity. One time I did an hour interview and it wasn't

recording. And I don't even know how but we had to redo it. And

then COVID hit right. So then we were all locked up. And nobody's

coming to my office. Certainly I certainly didn't want them to.

So that's when I discovered zoom. And now even when I do a

podcast, like in the office with somebody nearby, I haven't get

on Zoom, because I want the video captured all that all that

content. So so that that has that has evolved, I guess a

little bit in terms of how I do that. And then what was the rest

of your question?

Was the most effective ways that you've been able to attract

listeners?

Oh, yeah. Right. So then, so I get I have a pretty big network

locally, at least, you know, I go to networking events now

online, you can go all over the world, but so I get a lot of I

was getting a lot of referrals from other professionals.

There's some very good ones. I mean, it's people that seemingly

were like little business owners and I start talking to them. I'm

like, Oh, my God, they had this story where they were like in a

coma and they were hit by a truck. And then they started

this business and crazy things. And then slowly but surely, and

I still get a lot of referrals from people I'm a little bit

more choosy about, but I've hit the circuit somehow of Booker's.

So I get a lot of emails from Booker's about guests. I mean,

seven out of 10 are good, depends on what they are. But

I'm in that I just I don't know, I hit that wheel. And I'm like,

on that merry go round, I guess, for a while. And then. And then

I also use it as a prospecting tool. So I'll go to an event

that's, you know, naming, you know, business owner of the year

or whatever, in New Jersey, I'll use it as a way to approach

people because you can't do that as a lawyer. I can't call you up

and say, Tiffany, do you need a new business lawyer now you

could think that's fine, or you can report me to the ethics

department. So you know, I don't so it's a way to approach

people. So I do probably those three ways networking,

individual approaches, and I get a lot through PR people and

booking groups.

Okay. Very good. And then do you now you mentioned that you have

a blog, and I'm on do you keep that on your biohacker law page?

Or is that on your podcast page?

Yeah, so the podcast pages, just pod, pod bean, but it's funny

that you brought that up. So I'm in the process of kind of

rebranding. So the podcasting, the speaking the writing, the

blogging, was kind of getting lost in the law firm, which I

didn't want that. So coming by the middle of the summer, I'll

be launching a new law firm website, new branding, little

bit new colors. And then we'll be working on the Mitchell

buying hacker.com Personal Branding side, where the podcast

will be highlighted, more speaking, writing the blogging,

still not sure how to do the blog, because some of its

podcasting some of its legal stuff. Right now is on the

website though. There's a menu that said podcasting you can go

to the blog and all that, that different stuff. So on the pod

bean, you know the host, you said you use Libsyn The only

thing up there is that the show notes so that's not really a

blog, but then I take those and I make a blog out of it and do

him a MailChimp mailing and all that postings to the Yeah,

exactly.

So have you seen a lot of traffic like have you do you

track the analytics on either the email or the

blog post. So that's another, that's another reason why we're

redoing all this stuff. So no, I have not been good at SEO. And,

and, you know, fine tuning my website. So I'm working with a

friend of mine who I've worked with for awhile, I do a lot of

his legal work. He's helping me rebuild all this stuff, because

they're, they do for bigger companies, but these helping me

do the, you know, the digital marketing, the SEO, all that

stuff. Because ironically, like you said before, just putting

out really good content brings you business, like I get calls

and connections for business all the time, every day. And my SEO

is terrible. So I know that content is really important. But

yeah, I could fine tune the SEO, the website needs to be refined.

And we're right in the middle of that whole process. Because that

like I've mentioned before, if I go to a website, every page of

my website should do something, right. If you land there, you

learn some information, you come into my world, you get on my

mailing list, you get information, I follow up with

you, we stay in touch. Most law firms do not do that at all. You

go there, you can learn about their partners, you can learn

about the practice areas, there's nothing, there's no call

to action, there's no funnel, so to speak, there's no marketing

system. There's just terrible at it. Yeah, I did criticize all of

my colleagues, consistently. And I don't want to be that. So

a lot of businesses are like that. It's

so funny that you said that I I'm just so impressed, because

I've been building websites for decades, quite honestly. And

that's one thing I've always said is like, every page of your

website is like a very valuable employee. And they should have

two things, they should have a job to do like an outcome. And

what it needs to do it just like you would with an employee. And

so I love that you said that

to my friend, Roger, he taught me

that. And he said, Listen, you shouldn't have a page up here

that doesn't do anything. It's like a tiny little funnel. Yeah,

so that makes sense. But a lot of lawyers don't think they get

in, you know, business through the web. They think they get

business locally. And it's not true.

So yeah, and it could be true. And the other

thing too, is that I love about, like what you're doing and the

way that you're answering questions of your ideal client,

because I know I'm making an assumption here. But is this

correct that your ideal client is also your ideal listener? Is

that fair to say?

Yes, tip, it's fair to say it's typical

business owner. Yeah, I mean, you know, maybe my ideal client

is a little bit more mature in their business. So they have

money to pay me but and they have more things going on. So

their family owned business there have multiple partners in

the business. But I always have a soft spot in my heart for

entrepreneurs and people that are getting started. But a lot

of times they don't have money to pay me. So we gotta give him

like a special deal upfront, to get started. stuff.

So just Yeah, or send them the episodes that will help them the

most like that's how

they refer their good refers. They refer other people, they

talk to their friends. Oh, you need to talk to Mitch. He's the

guy and call me the weirdest things or like I heard you're

the guy. I'm like, for that type of law. No, I'm not. But I'll

get you somebody who does it.

That's awesome. So yeah, yeah, it's all about the

relationships were top of mind relationships. Yeah.

So do you have a social media strategy?

Do I have a social media strategy? So probably eight

months ago, I didn't. And now that I'm working with my friend,

I'm starting to so right now, my social media strategy is the

podcasting twice a week. So those go up on social media. And

then I, you know, like and post and I speak, so I'll put that

out and stuff, but I'm gonna, that's part of the whole review

is to come up with a more systematic strategic social

media strategy as part of the overall because they all support

each other. Right? So and the funny part is, like I said, I am

busy and I do get a lot of business through all of my

efforts and things and it's not as strategic as I think it

should be. Some of its haphazard, you know, I used to

friend used to tell me, you should post twice a day, um,

twice a day on what, like I have work to do, you know, twice a

week is a huge jump for me. So we're working on that. Yeah,

we're strategic about it.

What's nice is typically you can do the outbound, you know,

systematically it's yeah, it's the messy stuff. I in fact, I've

mentioned this on a couple other episodes, but the next question

leads to like getting on to groups and forums on LinkedIn or

Facebook. Are you doing that and answer yes. So in not podcasting

groups, but paralegal groups Small Business small business

group, okay, perfect. Perfect. Because yeah,

and I don't do enough of it. There was a

time where I was doing even more and then I would get somebody

call me I was like, Why do you call me they're like, Well, you

were answering the questions. I figured you were the expert. You

never thought about that. So yeah, you go from you know this

Feaster you go from one thing to another, that's why you need a

more strategic plan. So I know that I do this on this day and

this on that day, and so I would say I'm 60% there and my

wellness. That's

fantastic. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah,

I love that. In fact, A lot of times I found myself, I always

call it pajama work, because I feel like it's not really work.

I feel like I'm just talking to people about what I love to talk

about. So a lot of times, I'll try to, I'll do it like on a

Saturday morning, which probably isn't ideal, but a lot of times

I'm either 100% or 20%, or 10%, you know, so, but I think the

more consistency is helpful, but at the end of the day, if you're

doing it, it's huge, and it works. So one thing that you saw

that really stood out to me is the idea that, once you're doing

it, you just get busier. And so having that, not beating

yourself up about it, exactly,

but you know what, you're right, because I have a

friend of mine who's got a podcast called The E-tribe. We

did some dual episodes together. And one thing he said to me

early on was, listen, it's not magic, but it seems like it's

magic, if you just keep putting out consistent quality stuff.

And you know, let's say we're not all perfect, right? We fall

off the wagon all the time, you try to be strategic, and you put

in systems that keep it going and keep it going. Business will

come, you'll get notoriety, people will start to listen to

your podcast, they will follow you. And sure enough, I mean, it

took good eight I mean, the pandemic helps, right, because I

connected with so many more people. But yeah, I mean, 18

months in, you start to see things that are happening,

because you stick with it. A lot of people don't, you know,

they'll tell you, Tiffany, I posted on LinkedIn, not gonna

happen. Well, how many times you can post on LinkedIn, like

three, three times? And you're like, Well, no wonder nothing

that you have to be. You have to be in the you know, play in

traffic to get hit. That's

what I always say, Well, ultimately, if it's

all about building our businesses, it takes about

sounds terrible, but like it takes 10 years to be an

overnight success. It just doesn't it does. Right. And so

if in podcasting, it takes even two years to be an overnight

success, that is, you know, that is called leveraging. Yeah, that

is leverage right? There's so I love I love what you said is

spot on. So I'm so on social media, when you're posting on

social media, do you send them to your pod bean? site? Or are

you and I know you're in a transition? So it's kind of a

good time to ask me? No,

I think I do. Yeah, the links go to the

for the podcasting. Yeah, I send them right to the pod bean.

site, so does the blog. So did the emails like I use MailChimp?

Yeah, but I, you know, I don't just post podcast stuff. I post

legal stuff, you know, updates, things like that.

Okay. And for me, so Beinhaker law. Yeah.

Calm. That's where your blog is. So whenever you talk about your

brain, that's where it lives?

Right now. It is. Yeah.

So where is? Sorry? I can't find it. I keep them. I mean, I'm

like, maybe it's just me, but maybe

somebody moved in Hold on a sec.

I don't know. I'm just missing it. I don't

know.

Maybe they we didn't get to the - lemme

see. Oh, no, I'm sorry. It's under about the practice by an

ACA law blog. That's what it that's where it is right now.

About because I have guests on different topics. It's not just

the podcast and yeah, yeah, I'm gonna have to now that you

pointed that out. I'm have to figure that out as we make the

transition

blog. But it's up

to you and me program in HTML, I, you know,

have this that's one thing. It's like, I want to do this. And I'm

like, I can't do this. I gotta get somebody else to do it.

Yeah, yeah. Let's

say that's okay. Okay, that's, that's

awesome. I'm

gonna make a note, because when we do the new

website, we got to do put a blog. Okay, blog, but

yeah, yeah. If you have someone helping you through that whole

process, that's going to be really yeah,

my friend rod. Like, that's easy. Like for you.

He's like, Yeah, I

barely know how to do these postings. Yeah.

Isn't me like, Don't

worry, your blog will be at the top of the navigation bar.

That's what he promised me.

So Excellent. Well, I'm glad that I clarified

because I do want to I, I always like to take a look at the blog,

because it's so important. And I'll have to say like for my

marketing company, we do have our, we, when we write it a full

on bought blog article about an episode, we put it on our

marketing page, because 100% relates to it just like for you,

I'm sure that there are topics where it's like, yeah, it's on

my practice blog, because it completely relates to what

advice

you have to figure that whole thing out.

Right now the blog isn't even in doesn't even look the way I want

it to look. But I wanted to get the content out there knowing

that we were, you know, that's one of the problems with

recreating stuff and you're always kind of redoing, and then

you're like, okay, great, but it's not static, you know, so I

got it up and I said, Listen, let's do this. We're moving to a

new platform, the new websites that could even be on WordPress

or some other system so but I didn't want to like wait not put

the content out. So I'm like, listen, let's do this with the

thumbnail this, okay? And I get it out there because it's

content. So it's important to me doesn't look like I wanted to,

but Well,

in you're getting there and I think that

that's a great example for anyone listening is that it's

better to get the content out because people are gonna be on

Google and yeah, passes you by, they're gonna be looking at a

topic and then boom, up comes an actual post. And so

I think it takes a while to get indexed

right to really kind of show up and yeah,

yeah, exactly. So I think it's great that you're doing that.

And I'm assuming that you're going to have the audio embedded

or the video

or Yeah, so that's so I used to have I don't think it's there

anymore. I used to have a page where there was like a guest

page. Let me see if Oh, yeah. So if you go to podcasting, right,

and you go to meet our guests, you see where that says, yes,

yeah. Okay, so this was the original wasn't really a blog,

but So originally, let me see if it's gonna come up. I had yeah,

here comes. There's a player at the top, you'll see it. I don't

know if your system is faster than mine.

We're both on Zoom. So it's making everything

take longer. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. That's a little

bit now on video. Probably. Sorry, everybody. Yeah, so I

have. Yeah, that's Beinhaker Law B-E-I-N-H-A-K-E-R Law dot com.

And you follow along with us as we're looking go.

Yep. And then you go to podcasting, which is a drop down

menu and meet our podcast guests. Okay, so originally, I

end there, just a little book blocks, right. So there's little

windows with each guest. And there's the player at the top?

Well, that was great. Until I had 160 episodes. You know how

long that page is? Yeah. Yeah. So that's when he switched to

the blog. So I don't have a player on the blog yet. Because

we're gonna launch I didn't even bother to, I wanted to finish

the new website. So I don't want to get distracted by helping me

with things about the old website, which is probably a bad

strategy. But that's kind of where we are.

No, I think I think you're doing the right

things you're doing. And we'll have a player. Yeah, it's

important is taking the action. And then the things that are

getting traction, putting effort behind that, instead of you

know, a lot of times we want to do everything. And at the

beginning, we kind of need to, but then it's looking at what

areas are working. And then how do we optimize those areas?

Because if you don't launch you don't get

any analytics.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So okay, awesome.

Awesome. I think he just loaded up. What's What's it called? Now

Google console. So he loaded it up on the web. They've changed.

Google's always changing their tools. So it's like, yeah, so

they're loading that up on the first website so they can see

what was going on what wasn't working with the old website,

and they can compare it to a new website. Oh, so I'm like,

Alright, here you go. And they're doing whatever they need

to do. Yeah. Nice. Nice. I've no idea. I've never seen the

analytics.

Awesome. Well, this has been really helpful.

Before. Now, I know, I just want to kind of get back to your

ultimate vision, I always want to keep the main thing, the main

thing, right. So your ultimate vision is you want to help

entrepreneurs make better decisions with their businesses,

right. And when you're looking at your podcast, again, the

contents amazing, but it's when we when I when you approached me

about being on the show, when I reached out to you, it was all

about like, do you want to talk about monetization? Or do you

want to talk about preeminence so profit or preeminence and we

chose the preeminence? Right route. So we're going to talk

about, so that's why a lot of this has to do with, you know,

how do we get listeners? What listeners do you have? How do

we-

It's all helpful, I love it.

And so the next part, we're going to start

to transition into the next part where I kind of talk about my

take on things and then get your, your input and feedback on

that. But before we do, I just wanted to kind of hit that

Touchstone where it's like, ultimately, you want to help

people make better decisions with their business. But before

we transition, what do you believe is standing between you

and fulfilling that vision for your show?

I'd like to believe that there's really

nothing standing in the way of it. I mean, I think it's just

continue to put out the content, that same message we get, we

get, you know, I've talked to so many different people. And there

are themes and trends and learning that goes on. I'm

learning, I hope the listeners are learning. It's like a

University of experience from all these people that have some

of which have failed their way to success, some of which came

out of business school, some which have technical degrees,

some which have no degrees, and they all have different stories

and ideas to share. And that was the whole, you know, goal of the

podcast. You know, one of the reasons why I'm trying to do

some series coming up and focus on industries because I, you

know, I feel like we've told a big story with 180, 109- 200

episodes, whatever it is, I'll hit 200 soon. And, you know, so

then what do you do from there? So I want to, you know, kind of

step it up. And let's do some real specific things for

minority owned businesses, women owned businesses. I mentioned

before we were I think before we're on, like, I'm looking at

craft brewers. Now I'm a big bourbon drinker. So it probably

won't extend my life, but I like bourbon. So maybe craft

distilleries. Yeah, maybe it'll preserve my body. And you know,

stuff like that. So I'm thinking You know, maybe there's craft

bakeries, craft candy makers around whatever. So we can kind

of get into industries and share ideas and learn from everybody.

And you know, and maybe I helped the guest too. I hope, I hope

but that's, you know, I don't think there's anything holding

me back in that regard. But I don't want to be complacent

about it. I mean, I'm always trying to find out do people

like the content? Is it good? I listened to it? Yeah, this

sounds like shit. And then I checked with somebody else. What

do you think I was a great episode. I'm like, really? Are

you sure? What about this? You know, just like you, you're

probably critical about your stuff,

you know? So yeah, yeah, I definitely am.

But, um, that's a whole nother topic. But one thing I love

about when we did touch on this before the show, I think it's

really fantastic. Because we talked a little bit about people

quitting. And what I've seen is number one, monetization, like

if people completely ignore monetizing, I think you need to

have a show that isn't harmed by monetization, and that it

shouldn't, you know, hurt the listener in any way. But, um,

but I do, if we ignore it completely, people quit. Like,

there's just no way you can just do it forever and do all the you

need to start questioning someone else, you know, like,

otherwise, you're gonna do the editing. And you probably be,

you know, like you like, you're way too busy to be doing that

kind of I know,

sometimes, I don't know, I do have, I picked

up a couple people through Upwork or Upwork, like a woman

in the Philippines and a guy in California. You know, it's like

20 or $30 an episode, it's not a lot. But you know, there's some

times when there's a certain episode or things that I need to

do that I'm just like, you know, what, it's just harder to

explain it, and I'm gonna have to redo it, and I just do it.

But I have systematized that. So it only takes me like 45 minutes

and episode to get it ready.

That's awesome.

But you're right. Yeah. I don't want to do

this long. I mean, look, I tell people, if you're if you want to

start a podcast and make money, you're going to be very

disappointed.

And so the listeners, yeah, because usually the motivation

hurts, you know, like, it's just bad.

I mean, very few people, like, you know, Joe Rogan, and Dax

Shepard signed deals to go over on Spotify. I don't know, Jack

Shepard got but he's moving to Spotify. I'm not sure he's not

doing it for no money. Yeah, so that doesn't happen. But it's a

very good way to produce content. It's a very good way to

promote your business. But you're right. If you want to

keep in the race, you're not going to be able to do it

yourself. And like me, I have a lot of trouble justifying

spending a lot of money I've had a lot of people approached me,

oh, we can do this for you. We can your whole run your whole

show. And it's three or $4,000 a month, I'm not putting through

for that, you know, $50,000 a year and on my podcast, get I

said, Listen, get me sponsors, you keep the sponsor money, or

has to sponsor money or whatever. And we're gonna add a

couple of deals like that. There's always ways to do it.

But it definitely is has to be part of the equation. I agree.

Exactly.Yeah. So ignoring it is not a good

option. And the other thing is boredom. And that's one thing we

talked about before. And so I think this whole idea that you

have the the the series and things like that where you're

getting into these industries, it's still and that's why an

audience audience promise is so important, because then you can

always everything is through that filter. Everything is like

does it fulfill the audience promise. But what somebody came

up to me and I can't remember what oh, they were in real

estate. Oh, big shocker. They were in real estate. And they're

like, you know, it was like, what? I know podcasting. Real

estate is love. And I could do it on

your real estate bucket. A bunch of good

people on my, on my show. Yeah.

So but with with somebody came up to me, and

they're like, Oh, I'm in I live in Montana. So he was asking,

would it make country? I want to do a hunting podcast. And I was

like, Why do you think people moved to Montana? I think that

that's brilliant. Nobody wants to hear a real estate agent talk

about real estate. Like that is the last thing and I think that

you've really captured that essence. And when you have an

audience promise, there's always that TrueNorth. And so if you

have an idea that you're you know, for example, for our show,

it's like I promise that if somebody listens to the show,

they can not only just have a podcast, but they can crush it.

And so when we when I'm like I'm bored, and I get and I told you

before I get bored, super easy. And I'm like, Okay, I need a new

series. I'm gonna take a break season's over, we're gonna do a

series

in a in a perpetual season. I've never

taken a break. I probably should. But you're

the best. Like, yeah, I'm terrible at

that. But, but I also use my show for testing. So I'm usually

also when I take a break, I'm messing around with the systems

I messing around with the processes. And we've got this

really great guessing platform and profit platform. And so I'm

always like, updating that or upgrading it. And when I'm doing

my own show, it's like, it's hard to change your process

while you're using your process. So well,

chicken in the egg. But you know, sometimes

you just got to do it and change it as you go and try it and

things like that. You know,

we've got a couple of texts that were different just because we

were changing our system. done while you were getting your

phone, I got

a lot of text from you. I think I sent a lot of messages to

somebody said, Boy, I got reminded about your show a lot.

So I took like one of them off. It was too. It was too many. But

it's funny you say that? Because when I first started, and yeah,

that's why I came up with a tagline. So I do have a goal in

mind for each of the shows what our objective is. But when I

first started, when I had four or five law part and five or six

law partners, we were like, we're gonna do like law, a law

podcast, we'll do things like if you have to go to municipal

court, and it was like, Oh, this is gonna be great. And I talked

to a bunch of colleagues of mine and friends, they're like, that

is very boring. It is. That's it. That's the attorney. Nobody

wants to listen to that shit. I go, but they need it. He goes,

doesn't matter. They're not gonna listen to it. They

scrapped that whole idea and then eventually came up with the

whole.

I mean, I believe me, I would love to do a show on SEO and

everybody wants to know about it, but nobody wants to hear

about you. Unless you

Yeah, I've done a couple of those. I don't think I got a lot

of downloads on it was good, good content, really good stuff.

But people don't have the bandwidth to keep listening to

it for like, 30 seconds or like, you know what? I think I'm gonna

hire somebody.

Yeah, exactly. It's funny. I speak about podcasting. Now. I

don't know, I'm, I'm a self proclaimed expert. So locally, I

speak about it. And there's always people anybody want to

start a pot, because they raise their hand by the end of the

show? The speech? They're like, I don't want to do this. So I

have some studios I work with I can send you to and they'll do

the whole thing. Soup to nuts. Yeah. Because it's it is

overwhelming. Yeah.

Yeah, there's definitely if you want to do it,

right. There's a lot to it. And to be consistent, it feels

mundane. And it's hard to stick with it. So I wholeheartedly

agree. Okay, so before we move into the part where I share, I'm

going to share three things I'm going to share number one, what

I see you doing really, really well, some of the things because

I'm not gonna be able to hit on all of them. Yeah, we

don't say on the two well, stuff too long. We

want to have the bad stuff, the improvement stuff. Yeah, I'm

open book, I don't care.

That's better, I made a really good list of

this. And I think I told you a lot of the stuff I like already.

So the second part will be some areas of opportunity, not

necessarily in any order, just, you know,

I get to take notes during that portion

You have my permission Tiffany

Yes, and, and I and I will get these out to

of

Awesome, awesome. Before I do, I want to

him a little bit slow on getting them out. So if you take notes,

you can actually use them. So and then the third part will be

I always start with the four P's of preeminence. And all four of

if I'm boss of the world, this was my delivery on my promise,

where I'll give you an actionable step that I think

these things have to be present, I believe, and what I've seen

will get you the quickest return with the least amount of effort.

So awesome. Let's get to it. So do I have your permission to

transition into the next part

and studied for the last however many years, to, really gain

those listeners. So I mean, we can spend a year podcasting but

I believe if you don't have these things, you're going to

end the year go on. I thought everybody said I was gonna have

one.

Perfect, right? You gotta practice,

practice. Exactly. So number one is know

your purpose, which we talked about at the beginning, your why

why you're doing it. Because without it, it's hard to stay

inspired to continually do it. Now drop. Number two is to know

your people really dial in on your audience messaging so that

they want to listen once you've worked so hard to get them

there. So once they're there, also promotions. So getting them

there needs to be addressed, which you're doing a great job

at, you've got a lot of things in place, you've been doing

things and then I it's clear that you're really digging into

those things and improving them now, which I think on the

timeline of your show is ideal. And then number four is the

proceeds. So it's getting that profit so that you can delegate

that there's an actual ROI attached to it versus like you

were saying like I'm not going to just pour $50,000 In a year

out to it. But there is a point where you can have a measurable

ROI that it would make sense as well so right but today we're

gonna talk about how to get that preeminence so first I'm gonna

start with things that I see that you're really really strong

at. First of all, you have a great podcast voice which-

I do?

Yes you do. So that's really good.

I think that was the hardest thing is

listening to myself like on the radio when I'm listening in the

car. It freaked me out. Yeah, because your voice doesn't sound

to you like it sounds everyone else you have a very nice voice

too.

Well thank you

You probably don't think that though.

But one thing I found is as a podcaster a lot

of people are really worried starting podcasting that they

hate listen to the voice but you have to like you can't if you

don't you're gonna fail like just quick turn off the mic go

Movies are different. You don't watch movies because

you have a director and somebody makes the movie whatever right?

So unless you're paying, you know, five

figures a year for someone to direct you then you need to

listen to your show. Have you did you find that you got more

used to hearing your voice after you-

so yeah, no, now I'm used to hearing my voice

and I don't know if it's the I get that a lot that Oh, you have

a voice for radio. I don't. I don't know. Maybe I have a good

mic. I have no idea but I don't know what that means like, okay.

You know what I mean? Like you said, I have a good voice for

podcasting. What does that mean?

Well, I think I think it doesn't. Okay, so

this is such a weird. It's really makes me think of this.

So my daughter was Miss Montana teen. So she when she competed,

she has a different look. I mean, she's absolutely drop dead

gorgeous, but she doesn't look like she doesn't look like

Barbie. Like she's not blond hair blue eyed. And they didn't

want anybody who has blond hair blue eyed. And that was one of

the things that they said, and she actually had a gap between

her front two teeth. And she always wanted it fit, you know,

fixed and I was like, no, like, You are so beautiful. So how

would this How about if you go compete, like she's not a beauty

queen. I mean, she's, she's gorgeous. But she's not like a

beauty queen. She's an athlete. So it was a little bit weird

that she was doing it. And we lived in a little tiny, tiny

town in Montana where everyone was rancher. So it was a little

bit weird to them that she would ever even want to compete in a

pageant. So she did. And she won. So here we were, we showed

up and you know, she's got all her clothes shoved into the

suitcase, like beautiful gowns, and everyone else has got these

racks and makeup people and she's just like showing up

barely knows how to put them. You know, she knows how to put

makeup on, but just not important to her. But she's got

she's just so naturally beautiful. And she's just

radiates it and I feel like we want different, like, we just

don't want to hear that radio voice that we all hear all the

time. But yet, there's a tone that you need to have as an

speaker, that I mean, you know what, you know that when you get

up. And there are certain things you have to do as a speaker that

are not going to be annoying. You know, the first rule is

don't annoy people when you're talking, right? So I feel like

you have that good tone. But yet you don't sound like every other

radio person. That's how it stood out.

I guess that's just luck, though. That

wasn't like intended.

Regardless, like use what you have. This is about leveraging

the things that work. Yeah.

I don't think it's anything else. So I didn't go to voice

school. Again. I didn't take voice lessons. I just got on the

mic, you know,

okay. Okay. So regardless, good job. So by

accident or on purpose, I just think taking compliments,

clearly. So. So with that. I just want I just I think it's

really important for people to know, too. I've had a lot of

people on my show that I felt the same way where it's like,

you don't sound like everybody else. And so if, like for

myself, if I was like, wow, everybody's telling me that I

have a good voice. So how can I improve it? So again, it's like

all about leveraging what other people are already saying and

how can you better in that area? So it's not like oh, look,

Mitch, you've arrived you like the best speaker I've ever

heard. But I am saying like, you have a really great voice on the

podcast and so lean into that. Great energy. Don't be like,

just don't do anything different.

Lose my voice and it comes back like

Mariah Carey. She can't sing anymore. I don't want that to

happen.

No, it's not gonna happen. This isn't to jinx

you this is just feedback. Okay. Never do is you have a really

good energy with your with your guests. I like that. It moves.

And yet it is warm, but it doesn't just stay in the same

spot. So I just I think you've got a good energy don't cut you

know, like you keep it moving without it feeling.

I think it's important. I think that comes

through, right. I think that comes through to people if

you're like boring, or you're drab, but they get depressed and

they're like, why am I I don't want to turn off these. Yeah,

you gotta be. Look, I told you before we were on the mic. I've

been on with people and I'm thinking how in the world am I

going to make this? This is like pulling I pull my teeth out. But

I haven't hit record and I already want to

quit Yeah, no, it definitely it comes across in your in your

guests are awesome. So I don't know if they just arrived that

way. I don't think that it's an accident. I've heard a lot of

like, with, especially with the podcasts that I do right now,

with every single guest. I go and I listen to their show, but

I study it. I don't I'm not like sometimes I'm like, Oh, wow,

this is so good. Like, I'm getting so much from this. But

usually I start with an attitude of I'm, I'm studying things

about the show. And so I

do like a pre chat, like meet them for 15

minutes. I mean, I listen to their show we didn't meet

before, but I want to kind of size them up like oh my god, is

this gonna be like a horrific experience? Or can I make them

sound really interesting and fun? And do they have a good

personality? And they come across good on camera, you know,

that type of stuff? I've had a couple

So what if they don't, would you like,

cancel?

No, I mean, they know I'm evaluating them.

So I'll tell them. Listen, we have a lot of guests coming on.

We're making our decision soon. Let me just think about it and

think if I can do it, sometimes I say listen, I don't know

enough about what you do to make this interesting, but why don't

you try these type of podcasts or whatever.

Okay, so it kind of turns into a, okay. It's not you it's me.

It's kind of like there's a voice in my head that says, How

in the world are you going to get out from having these people

on your show? because we've referred them to you, and now

you're talking to them. I've had a couple of those that I had to

take on the show. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I just I made it

interesting. It's my job

well, and to like there's a screening, like

we have a screening process. And sometimes it'll get passed. In

fact, I had to cancel one recently that, and I can count

on one hand that I've done that, but I've just recently done

about four of them, where I should have done that. And I

finally just this time went, and I mean, I'm telling you, they

have a ton of followers, it would have helped, you know,

a lot of followers. Yeah.

But I was like this one, I was just like, I

know, I'm probably I don't know if this is a mistake or not, but

I'm just not going to do it. Because I care about the show.

Yeah, it's just so in this person's great speaker, great

content, probably would have had, like all these great ideas

for people. But I like I like that you have that where you're,

you've got to you've got a process where you can avoid

those moments. So I think that,

you know, it's also from an objective

standpoint, if if they're not going to be a good guest. It

doesn't help them either. No, no, you know, it might make them

look bad. Yeah. I don't want to be the person responsible for I

don't know if you heard that noise. It's like thunder and

lightning here. I don't want to be you didn't hear that. The mic

doesn't pick that up. Oh, that's

the dogs are barking here. I couldn't hear I

don't hear that either. Okay,

that's good. We have good microphones. I like

I really, I feel that way. Like if I'm bringing somebody on the

show, and I can't highlight them and make them look good. Because

I don't understand what they do. Or they don't have the

personality for it or whatever, or they have an accent. And I'm

like, I can't even understand them. I've had a couple of those

like from China and different places. I could I just couldn't

take them on the show. Then I'm doing them a disservice. That's

kind of how I look at it,

you know? Yeah. Okay. Well, let me let me get through this. I

want to honor our our time

and time but you're probably busier than me and

I don't know if I'm busier than you. I know

that you're busy attorney and everything. I just know that I

that we I really like I am I value keeping my promises. So I

just,

I blew our last interview. So I blocked out

my afternoon because I wanted to be available.

Well, you're awesome. You're awesome. So

okay, so your sound quality's amazing. Obviously, it's

professional, great mic makes a big difference. You edit it, you

care about that. You okay, this is another thing I love. And

more and more people are doing this. I'm so happy. Is that cold

open that clip at the beginning that really engages people

Yeah the hook?

Yeah, the hook. And I -

You know how many people write to me, and

they go, I was listening to the episode. I think it's broken.

Oh, I started right in the middle. And I said, How long did

you listen? So I had to explain it to them. I've done that a two

dozen times. I don't know what's people's problem?

No, I don't know. Then it's them. It's not

you. So yeah. Anybody who's listening just I mean, you're a

podcaster. If you're listening to the show, just if your

listeners give you a hard time about that it it got them

listening. And that's really ultimately the point of it.

Right. Exactly. So and then also the affiliate companies make

sense. I'm always looking for that when people are advertising

or doing anything. I feel like it needs to be in a next step.

That makes sense. And I think that I was actually like writing

down names of companies that are writing down some of it. I don't

think I ended up using them yet because I'm, I'm such a geek

about trying out new things. I sometimes I it's like a diet

like I've got it Okay,

No, I'm the same way. And I'm in the car and

I'm like, Oh, how am I going to remember that? You know, and I

check it out. Yeah.

Okay. And then um, yeah, yeah. So let's see.

Oh, in fact, even who's that author Maxwell? Ah, Malcolm-

Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell.

Yeah, I love him. He's so right.

So he's just so great. And so I just had to

comment. In fact, I was supposed to write that down, so I would

remember it. But I always listened to Podcast, the podcast

before my interview while I'm getting ready for the day. So I

don't always like capture all the information. But but there

was like at the end of the hook of the one where you're talking

about you're interviewing about trusting your gut. Yeah. And at

the very end of the hook, it's like talking about how he was

wrong about. Yeah, like, Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, that's

why

because that's what I want to talk to

glad about it. He wrote a book called Never go with your gut.

And it's totally contrary to the to the blink theory. Okay. And

it's interesting. I mean, I love Malcolm Gladwell. I love his

stuff. revisionist history is a great podcast. But yeah, it's

flawed data. And that's a whole nother we do a whole nother

project.

Exactly. So listen to that episode. If

you're listening to this right now came out today. Awesome.

Okay. Well, let's move into some areas of opportunity. Yeah,

let's do it. Yes. So, number one is the blog. So you know, you're

working on that. We talked about it as we went. I highly

recommend when you do the blog, I love your approach where

you're already thinking How can this capture leads? How can this

be a landing page? Love it, make sure to embed. Either I prefer

either the audio player, so through podbean, you can just

that episode code that into your right, because then someone's

like a lot of people like I'm reading it, I don't really care

about that. And then boom, people are out there listening

to exactly so and it helps with the SEO as well. So, so dual

happiness on that

I think I'm just gonna start putting the

player right in there until I get to the new website. We'll

figure that out then because Yeah, and if

you can do the episode itself, it's ideal

because you think about it, someone's googling the topic,

like they're like, tell me about instincts, and then they come up

with that episode. And then that episode can play right on that

page. It's just, it's perfect. So also, this is so minor, and

you barely need to do it. But just, it is an audio show. And

you know, people can, the nice thing is, is nowadays, we can

actually click links in the description, which we couldn't

do before. Yeah. So you know, with your website and things

like that, you can enter it into that, just make sure that it's

consistent about where you're sending people. So they're

either going to pod bean, don't do that, but or send them to

your website. So you're driving more traffic to your website.

Like I know, for us, we're always optimizing for something.

So yeah, sometimes we'll pick like, oh, we want to optimize

this campaign to go to YouTube. But for the most part, if you're

building this whole website, and you've got the landing page, you

have full control over that you have control over the SEO, then

you want in your social media, you want to be consistent about

driving traffic to that as well. Does that make sense? Yeah,

yeah, as a matter of fact, the show notes I

use Google Keep or something in the show notes are always I

mean, there's stuff about the guest. And then the bottom is

always the same. The links to the website. I don't think I

have a link directly to the I don't remember, I gotta look,

check on that.

And then also, um, let's see, you didn't Did you remove your

disclaimer from the beginning of the show?

No, it's after the hook. Okay. Okay. Good, good, good. You want

to, you know, one of the derivation of that. So, New

Jersey ethics, I'm a lawyer, right? So I call up the ethics

department, like, what do I need to do if I'm doing a podcast? Do

I have to like I'm talking about legal topics and business advice

whenever they have no rules? Like they don't even know. I

don't know. We don't have any lawyers have podcasts. I don't

know what we can. So I made up this disclaimer, for me, and for

now, until things change in his rulings, I'm just gonna leave it

in.

Awesome. Well, I think it's really good that

you have it. I just would suggest maybe doing it. If

there's a way to do it at the end, that would be the best. But

if you're the you're the attorney, so I'm not

giving like you should. Yeah, that was the

problem. Like I was concerned that if it was buried at the

end, and then the ethics department goes back says, oh,

that's gotta be upfront. I can say all mine is upfront, you

know. So I have to think so I've taught I've waived, I've waffled

on that. But I had been given that advice, like people don't

want to hear that.

Yeah. And especially because you have a

lot of affiliate stuff that happens at the beginning. I feel

like there's a lot of work the listener has to go through. I'll

do some research on it. Okay. Yeah. So I had messed around

with. So and also just, I can't remember is the affiliate ad

like it feels like advertising or the ads before after your

hook? Isn't aren't your ads first. And I remember,

Not really, that I do have an opening that

Yeah. So. So imagine the user, you have driven them to your

mentions them. The really the real ads are in the mid roll in

the middle of the episode. Okay. Very short. It's only like 30

seconds at the beginning.

podcast, you have hooked them with the title. They've looked,

they've gone. Okay, what's this about? They looked at the

description, and then they've committed to listening to your

show. You just want to make sure you grab them and keep them. So

the first one,

they've actually put the hook first, I can move the slide it

back.

Yeah, I would highly recommend that. Exactly.

And then, let's see here, teach. I'm okay. And this is such a

nuance of I'm such a marketing nerd. I just have to admit that.

So, I, first of all, I love your show, I love what it's about. I

love that it's the accidental entrepreneur, the fact that I

mean, I actually heard someone say it completely hadn't even

heard of your show, but was using that term. Yeah,

absolutely. Trying to think of some other things. Yeah, yeah.

And so made me think of your show, because I'd already done

research on it. So I was like, oh, there's a podcast called

accidental entrepreneur. I would I and maybe this was just the

episode I was listening to too, but I picture you as being the

hero, like, so it's an accident where they're at right now. And

they're just kind of leaning into this Yeah, I mean, really,

they're the hero, but you're like, you know, geez, so you're

not like, yeah, you're Oliver for Batman. Right? Yeah. Right.

Did I get my superheroes? Right? That's right. Right. Yeah.

Alfred. Okay. And so. So with that, yes, it's an accident.

That's the problem. Like, really, that's the problem that

you're saying. You're right. It is the problem is that

everybody's doing it by accident. Yeah. So they just

kind of stumbled along and they're like, well, that worked,

which is awesome. Because it means they're taking an action

before everything's perfect. They're like just doing it, they

have proof of concept. And then they're like, oh, my gosh, I

have a business, what do I do now. And then you swoop in, and

you're like, you're going to be on purpose now, like, you're

this is you're gonna take what's already working for you. And

you're gonna turn it into something even more amazing,

because it's already amazing, because people are already

loving it. And so just kind of leaning into that. Because

although, you know, entrepreneurs are kind of a

mess. And we do just kind of do crap before, we know. Sometimes

it works. And that's really those are the people that you

want, you want the ones who are just realizing, Geez that just

worked it because then they have something to work with. And it's

gonna be it's a shorter line between them and success. And,

but that's a really hard gap to cross. So you're kind of helping

them go, like, do it like you're like, it feels like you're

looking over that gap. But you just made it through what most

people can't make it through. So this gap people really isn't for

us. Yeah, exactly. So. So for me, like, I would say, if you

were able to develop an audience message that you were like, at

the beginning of the episode, you're really clear about like,

talking about the accidental entrepreneur, but if you just

added that little part where you're there to help them get

across that gap, kind of or something like that. So that

it's like, you suck, because you've done it, done it by

accident. But then now you're awesome, because you're wanting

to improve and you know, make it to the end. Is that helpful?

Yeah. Okay. And then let's see that a lot of these are from my

research from before. So let me see here. Yeah, again, I made

another note about like it just and I feel like the last show I

listened to the beginning to get to the meat of the show was

quicker. Whereas I feel like when I listened to it a couple

weeks ago, or a month ago, it was like it felt like it was

really long before we actually got to the meat of the show. So

if you

trim that down some of the some of the

hooks are longer than others. I don't know. I try and keep it

under like a minute minute. 30.

Yeah. Okay, so those are all the opportunities that I see like

some of them are practical. Some of them are not, maybe, but do

you have any questions or feedback about any of them?

No, this whole discussion is great. I love

it. Yeah. Then I'll share my like, if I was the

boss of the world, and you could do one thing. Yeah, actionable

advice, actionable steps. And I'm gonna tell you to, and I

just want you to pick one. But a lot of times what happens is,

I'll say one, and it's like, not practical. But is there anything

that I just share that you feel like, that's just not practical,

I can't imagine myself doing.

Now they're all things I'm going to look

into and change and play around with. And some of it I got to

work on, like clarifying the purpose in this, I gotta figure

out what would I say? And how would I say, you know, yeah, but

it's all good stuff. Yeah, that's right.

So the number one thing I would say, is just

getting that first minute, capturing people, because I feel

like you're getting listeners, I just want you to keep the

listeners once you get them there. The other thing is, is

your audience promise, I just think you're just onto

something. And people are already getting it how it is. So

it's not like you have to do it. But I just think it would

optimize the opportunity.

I think we talked about that, that I and

that's one of the things I think that in my mind, I know what I'm

doing. But I don't think it's as clear and evident as it could

be. So I'm gonna definitely that's great. Yeah, they're both

cool capturing thing. Well, I'm going to start by moving the

hook to the beginning. So that'll help.

That will help a ton that will help a lot. So and then if you

can move the disclaimer to the end, and then if they tell you

Yeah, I made a note at the beginning you

question mark and research. Yeah, there you go.

Do you have so that's what I have. That's,

that's the gist of it. So do you have any other questions or

comments or something I didn't ask that maybe I should have or

something else?

No, this is a great discussion. I think that

I appreciate you having me on and highlighting my show and

give me the advice and I I hope that it helps other people that

are looking to use podcasting as a way to grow their business and

grow their influence and share their message and help other

people. So I love the platform. I love the fact that it's so

readily accessible nowadays, but you know, it's definitely

something that takes the time and the interest in learning and

becoming, you know, good at it. Definitely, like you're talking

about your voice and stuff. Doing it a lot is what helps you

right, so you do a home listening to it. Yeah, listening

to it. I mean, there were a lot of things that listen to him

like that doesn't sound good and you know, you adjusted or you

ask people questions and, and feedback help so yeah, well,

this is this is great. So I love The whole idea behind your

podcast but bringing a blog and helping us and sharing your

thanks. I'm gonna get you on pod Max. Yeah,

well, and I'm sure that what you've shared, a

lot of people can relate to. So even if someone was listening

and you're able to just to get one thing out of it, I just

think that it's amazing how one little adjustment can make a

huge difference. And to everybody who's listening. Be

sure that you go check out the accidental entrepreneur, you can

get it on any of your favorite podcasting platforms, or go to

accidental entrepreneur dot pod bean.com. And watch for the new

website. It sounds like that's coming out

website, the book. My series, I just put a

LinkedIn post about I want people to refer breweries to me.