Thank you for listening to noseyAF! So happy to have your ears!

This Conversation was recorded live for Lumpen Radio

Ep #104: Joe Schupbach: Care Is the Curriculum

SUMMARY

What does care really look like — beyond Valentine's Day chocolates and heart-shaped cards? In this episode of noseyAF, Stephanie Graham sits down with Joe Schupbach, a mission-driven educator, theater maker, and instructional coach with over two decades of experience in public education, nonprofits, and community-centered theater. Together they explore care as a daily practice: in classrooms, in collaborative creative spaces, in our neighborhoods, and in ourselves.

Joe shares how he stumbled into creative leadership, what trauma-informed teaching really means in practice, and why experiential learning matters more than ever in today's schools. The conversation moves through faith and identity, the joys of cooking as connection, and ends with a rallying call to get nosy about your local schools — and to support live, in-person art.

WHAT WE GET INTO 💬

You know when a conversation just goes everywhere in the best way? That's this one. Here's a taste of what Joe and Steph cover:

00:26 — Introduction to noseyAF

01:15 — Care as a daily ritual: not just something you perform on Valentine's Day, but how it shows up in classrooms, rehearsal rooms, and community spaces every single day

08:35 — How Joe accidentally fell into creative leadership — starting as a teaching artist right out of college and slowly becoming the person leading the room

18:06 — What trauma-informed teaching actually looks like on the ground, and why instructional coaches like Joe are changing the game in Chicago high schools

27:02 — Art-making during and after COVID-19 — how the pandemic forced a reckoning with what live, communal performance means and why it still matters

32:29 — Faith, identity, and how the personal bleeds into the professional for educators and artists alike

41:43 — Cooking as a love language: a genuinely delightful tangent about how preparing food for people is one of the most caring acts you can do

53:11 — How non-parents and non-teachers can meaningfully support local educators — including the surprisingly powerful role of Local School Councils (LSCs)

THINGS WE MENTIONED 🔗

Embarc Chicago — Joe's organization, working with 17 high schools in the Chicago area → embarcchicago.org

josephschupbach.com— Joe's personal site for artistic work, directing, and collaborations

Change Collective Fellowship — the leadership program Joe and Stephanie both participated in

Looking Glass Theatre — one of Joe's longtime artistic collaborators

PlayMakers Laboratory, The Neo-Futurists, The Ruffians, Salonathon, The Paper Machete — Chicago theater orgs Joe has worked with

DonorsChoose — mentioned as a way to directly support classroom supply needs

Local School Councils (LSCs) — the elected, community-based governing bodies of every Chicago Public School (and yes, you can be on one even if you don't have kids in the school!)

ALL ABOUT JOE SCHUPBACH 🎭

You're gonna love Joe — he's a two-MFA-having, theater-making, trauma-informed teaching wizard who genuinely believes care is the foundation of everything.

Joe Schupbach is an educator, writer, and director with 22 years of experience in public education, experimental community-based theatre, and nonprofit administration. He is a facilitator and instructional coach and currently serves as Head of Experiential Coaching at Embarc. Joe has been a frequent artistic collaborator with The Midwives, The Neo-Futurists, The Paper Machete, PlayMakers Laboratory, Pocket Guide To Hell, The Ruffians, and Salonathon. Joe holds two MFAs and is a proud Chicago Public Schools graduate. He was a 2024 fellow with Change Collective and is currently leading the Chicago Cohort of Change Collective fellows.

SPONSOR SHOUTOUT 💖

Come work with us at Artist Admin Hour , and get your work done.

CONNECT WITH JOE

Website: josephschupbach.com

Instagram: @joeschupbach

More ways to connect:

Email: stephanie@missgraham.com

Check out my work

Follow me on Instagram @stephaniegraham

Listen to more episodes

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Episode Credits

Produced, Hosted, and Edited by Me, Stephanie (teaching myself audio editing!)

Lyrics: Queen Lex

Instrumental: Freddie Bam Fam

Gotta get up, get up Tell the whole world you a winner, winner vision of a star with a mission in the cause what you doing, how you doing?

What you're doing and who you are Flex yourself and press yourself Check yourself, don't wreck yourself if you know me then you know that I be knowing what's up. Hey, Stephanie Graham is nosiest.

WLPN LP Chicago 105.5 FM Lumpen Radio. You're listening to Nosy AF. I'm Stephanie Graham and happy Black History Month. Happy Valentine's Day.

You know, Valentine's Day tends to make love feel very loud. You know, everybody's got their teddy bears out, their chocolates or passing Valentine's.

It's just like sometimes it could feel like it's like a who's in, who's out kind of a thing. But I like Valentine's Day. I don't know today's conversation, though, it lives somewhere softer, like in the territory of care. Care is ritual.

Care is teaching.

Care is creativity. Care as the ways we show up for one another every day, not just Valentine's Day.

So today I'm talking to Joe Schubach, who is a mission driven educator and organizational leader. A theater maker with more than two decades of experience across public education, nonprofits and community centered theater.

His work is grounded in trauma, informed practice, experiential learning, and deeply relational approaches to teaching and art making. I think you're going to love Joe and you know, let's start.

So, Joe, how do you like, what kind of relationship do you have to Valentine's Day? It seems like it's a very. People have a hard time or they love it. Where are you at with it?

I'm pro Valentine's Day in general. I have experienced it more as a single person than as a partner person.

Right.

Maybe most of us have. But I like the fanfare of it.

I like a little note.

I like the idea of like a secret drop off. I like the color scheme. I like an excuse to eat winter chocolate, period.

But I don't like.

I don't like when things are like overly romantic on Valentine's Day because I think there's an opportunity for it to be a celebration of like, friendship, the.

Love of friendship, you know?

Yeah. When you were in the classroom, did you do Valentine's Day with your students?

That's a really good question. Yeah, I mean, in the sense that when I taught high school theater, we.

Did do like monologues, like, like I.

Wish monologues, romantic monologues, like thinking about Them as like love poems.

Okay.

I remember teaching that in, in theater class and then in, in the English.

Class I was teaching during that same time.

We did look at like poetry form.

That week, so it was like a.

Cute way to do it. But when I taught elementary, I feel.

Like other classes were taking care of the Valentine's Day celebration.

Oh, okay. Okay. So you didn't have to like do like the mailboxes and stuff.

No, but I remember vividly doing it as a student.

Like, I remember second grade, like coming in with all my Valentine's written out.

For every person in the class.

Yes.

And in second grade specifically we had.

Done the, like brought in the shoebox and cut like a mail slot in.

It and like decorated it with construction paper. That was a big deal.

That was a big deal.

When I had to do Valentine's, there was, you know, we would get like the sheets that were perforated, then I would pull them apart and put em in each envelope. And there was a girl who wasn't nice to my friend and when I had ripped her Valentine card, it sort of wasn't a clean rip.

And usually I would have gotten a new Valentine card, but I didn't. And that's not nice looking back. But you know what, Be kind to others and then they'll be kind to you. And that's what Valentine's Day is about.

Loving one another. So that's right. So like, you work really a lot in creative leadership, would you say? Yeah. How did you get into like, how did you get into that?

By accident. So right when I got out of.

College, I started work as like a professional teaching artist for Claymakers Lab for.

Looking Glass primarily, and then a couple.

Other organizations here and there. And this is. Well before I started directing plays, um, I was just a teacher.

And then I started like being a lead teacher.

So being like on a team with teaching artists and then leading them in that space.

Sometimes with Looking Glass, I was like a lead teacher with just when there were two of us, sometimes one of the teaching artists was more in charge.

I started doing that at Park School.

At Evanston, which is an all special.

Ed school that we provided weekly theater classes to.

And that's really where that I think leadership started.

And then I, I fell into more.

Like formal leadership roles where I was.

Like running our after school program. I ended up accidentally becoming a board member at Playmakers.

Oopsie.

And then I started dabbling in direction.

And that's when like for better, for.

Worse, I started being in charge of.

The room and that led to my. My more like formal sort of management leadership roles in, like, arts management and then in education.

Do you like. Do you like being the leader?

Like, I think one thing that I always really admire about you is that you will take charge on things, even if it's, like, your own personal projects. Like, you always are just, like, initiating things. Um, and I think where I. I guess sometimes I think, like, you know, folks are the leaders.

Do they ever think, man, how come I always have to start something up? Do you ever feel like that?

Well, a hundred percent. So, I mean, I think part of that impulse for me comes from being the oldest sibling.

Okay.

And if you know this about me.

Like, I have a biological sister, and.

Then my parents were foster parents for a long time. And so I was, like, a super older sibling to many. And I was seven years older than. I'm seven years older than my sister.

And often seven years or more older.

Than the foster kids that lived with us, my foster siblings. And so I was, like, always in charge in good and bad ways. I did, like, hard ways, like, being sort of parentalized, but in good ways.

Of, like, here's what we're doing today on summer break while mom was at work.

And so some of that, like, is.

Sort of natural or came from birth order.

And then some of that comes from what you're just talking about, about if.

You want something to happen.

Like, one of the surefire ways to.

Make it happen is to do it. Start that conversation or put a project on the calendar and, like, wrangle people to be involved.

So in some ways, it comes naturally. In some ways, it's a learned behavior. And in some ways, it's like, well, if I want to do this, I.

Think I have to do it. And then to your question about, like, do I like it?

I think it's a mixed bag, right?

It's lonely at the top.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

Yeah, really.

But I do like the parts that I especially like about being a boss.

Or a leader or the director in.

The theater space or a teacher is I get to have the responsibility and.

Honor to, like, take care of people in the room.

I think that's actually, like, how I got into directing is I was like, I want to take care of this room. I want to create the conditions in this room that I wish were true in rehearsal rooms or replicate the conditions.

That I found to be positive, playful.

And good conditions of, like, creativity and good conditions of, like, psychological safety.

So I like being the one who.

Like, set some of that because it honestly puts me at ease and it makes me feel.

Like, good about the way that I'm taking care of people in the room.

Yeah. And then like, when you're leading something, like, what do you pay the closest attention to?

I think I probably have different answers.

For different eras in my life. I think in, like, in a fun, whimsical way.

I really like to create spaces that honor creativity, but also autonomy.

I like that people can contribute to.

Things and not just sort of produce the thing or the project or the piece of art that I'm trying to produce, but really be like, co authors in that.

I really like.

I'm a fan of the Surrealists and.

I'm a fan of, like, not always.

Knowing what something's going to look like and putting things next to each other.

And seeing what evolves.

So much of my work was in.

Has been in, like.

Group creation and devising. And so I was really interested in what, like, the brains and hearts in the room.

Yeah.

Come up with. But I also spent some time thinking about trauma, informed practice, as this is.

Like, both like, a word, responsibility, and.

Also something I'm proud to participate in and to think about. Like, what does everybody need to feel successful and safe in the space?

Thinking about, like, predictability, like, folks knowing.

And being able to visualize what they're.

Coming into before they do it. Having flexibility in the room from everything.

From, like, taking breaks to, like, pausing.

And like, reevaluating, like, whether or not something's working for folks or if, you know, both in art and in human.

Services and public education stuff is personal. And I try to create spaces where.

Like, people can dip out or take a break or, like, rethink what version.

Of themselves they're bringing to the room.

And what version of the room feels.

Like, safe and digestible at any given time.

And I believe that, like, a great.

A rising tide raises all ships. Like, something that makes things softer, safer, and more achievable for an individual probably serves the larger group.

So I think about, like, all those.

Things, like, both the creative play part.

Of what I can set up and the, like, psychological safety part of what I can.

I really like that. And it feels like it's it. You, like, make yourself really open.

But I also think, like, what if somebody wants to bring something to the room that you don't like? Or if you're, say, you're, like, directing and they're like, I want to do this.

And you try to keep open and you're like, actually, I don't want you to do that, but you're trying to still stay open.

Yeah. I mean, that took all the time, right? I mean, that can be anything as small as, like, an actor choice, like a.

Or a design choice that, like, I might want to see, like, their idea.

Up on its legs, but then make.

An adjustment because it might not fit the, like, mood or tone or purpose of the piece. But then also that can manifest as, like, something is some.

Something feels offensive or problematic or in.

Poor taste, and the individual probably didn't intend it to be.

But I've had to give notes before. Like, I know what you're trying to.

Do, and this is how it's reading. And I think that's an interesting thing from the arts that probably can transcend the arts, which is the Assume.

Assume best intent, but attend to impact.

Like, yeah, I know you're not trying.

To do something wild.

Yeah.

But this is how it's reading, and this is how, like, an audience or participant would process it, or at least that's my experience and belief, like, taking in this thing. And that can, like I said, transcend our.

Like, in my current job, we create.

A lot of professional development workshops for adults.

We try to, like, put on different.

Hats and stand in different people's shoes.

Like, after we create something, we're like.

Okay, what would this day feel like for an introvert?

What would this day feel like for an educator who's experienced, lost recently, or just really thinking about, like, the diversity of human experience and, like, diversity of intelligence and everything in between? Because you can't make a day just for extroverts. You can't make a day just for people who love physical action.

Like, you have to make a day that's really, like, caring and diversified for adult learners or for any learner. Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Cause I think about, like, I don't know, just how, like, you can maintain your own vision while letting other people be collaborative in that vision.

You know, I think, you know, like, in film, you know, we have, like, our stories all the time, and each, like, department has to bring sometimes their own interpretation of, like, what a character might have to the story. And that's, like, still collaborative. But then I guess the director can say, like, oh, actually, no, actually, yeah.

And then we just have to go back and reshift. But I don't know, it just makes me think, like, when you want to be open, how can you, like, still make sure that everything's still contained while.

While everybody's still respected? I think that's sort of hard. I can't even talk about it. It's sort of hard.

It's totally hard. And, like, I think it manifests in so many different kinds of rooms and ecosystems and everything in between.

Like, I think that happens in the.

Arts all the time.

I mean, literally, we have, like, jobs.

In the arts that, like, someone is the decider.

And, you know, even, like, I'm a boss.

I supervise a team of four instructional coaches, and I want to keep things as, like, I want to have as much dialogue and, like, exploration at the center as possible.

And in all those spaces, it's still like, there's a gift of responsibility, and there's a curse of responsibility, because ultimately your job is still to say, I.

Heard the feedback or I saw the.

Choice, and here's why we're doing X, Y or Z. And so I think what makes that successful, at least on a good day, is, like, transparency around it. This is why I don't think it's working.

And the good thing about that is that can actually create dialogue.

Like, further creative dialogue. Like, oh, now that I know what you're seeing, I can actually make a.

Different choice that's informed. Not just sort of like, me making.

A group of actors perform the way that I would do it because I'm.

Not really interested in my performance of.

It, otherwise I'd be an actor.

But, like, the more, like, conversation that goes back and forth, the more it.

Actually, like, informs the creativity of the room.

And also, I think it's like a.

Gift for anyone to be like, I've heard the feedback and here's why I'm doing it anyway.

Yeah, that's tricky, right?

And I think taking, like, sort of.

Like, problematic stuff out of the equation. Right.

But, like, more creative choices.

Sure, of course, of course.

An experimentation at work.

Like, it's appropriate to be like, I've heard that feedback, so I'm going to try it anyway. And then I'm, like, going to come.

Back to you and see, did it work differently this time?

Or, like, for, like, my staff that.

I supervise, like, they.

They work on their own with their.

Own caseloads of schools. And so sometimes they actually do know better, right? Because they know these adults really well.

That's like, part of their job is getting to know a school really well. And so, like, my advice is usually like, well, here's how I would do.

It, but I'm not at that school every week.

You know, hey, here's a question. Is there, like, instructional coaches? What if you're, like, homeschooled? Should there be? I Don't know. I don't know.

I don't know what made me think about homeschool.

Yeah.

I was gonna say, if I'm being honest, I don't know how homeschool works. But what is funny is that I didn't know, like, instructional coaches existed until I started teaching high school. I guess I maybe knew they kind.

Well, I knew they existed when I was little in the sense that I knew that sometimes when I had a teacher teaching, there was a mystery person.

In the back of the room.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you get that little speech from the teacher that's like, hey, we're going to have a visitor today.

But I certainly didn't like, know that.

It was like a job that I could pursue.

I kind of fell into it. And.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about, like, when you're little, when you're a young learner or a student, you don't really understand all the jobs in education. You don't understand.

Yeah.

The people that stop by your classroom and why they're there and what they're doing.

Yeah. There's a lot going on. So, like, just in short, for the listener, can you just briefly explain what an instructional coach is?

Yeah. So an instructional coach, the way I explain it to like, relatives or people outside of the industry is like, I teach teachers.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And more specifically, it's. There's a lot of different kinds of instructional coaches. Right.

So schools have instructional coaches who are like, helping teachers grow specifically to meet school goals, to meet, like, professional metrics of success. Like, when I was a high school teacher, I had an instructional coach who was helping me evolve my practice to.

Better align with like, the goals and.

Practices of the school in general.

Okay.

My job is unique because I'm an instructional coach that works with a nonprofit that's like an outside organization.

A bark.

That's the name of it. And we coach around relationship centered experiential learning.

So we're helping teachers put relationship building at the center of their coursework, and we're helping them lead experiential learning in.

And out of the building.

So the things we're coaching on is not. It's not an evaluation, it's not about job performance. We're not secret spies for administrators.

Um, we're.

We're much more.

We're walking alongside them and we're offering kind of like, we were just talking about like, my.

Me as a director, like, walking alongside.

Them, knowing we're not doing the work they're doing the work. I, I often compare it to midwifery.

Okay. Yeah.

Midwife is offering coaching and care and.

Strategy, but the, the person giving birth.

Is doing the hard work.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

And it's very similar, like metaphorically in that way.

The teacher is still the one who is there every day with their students.

Doing everything they're required to do by.

The state and the city and their school.

And we're kind of the fairy godmother.

With some bright ideas coming in and offering coaching around behaviors and ways of being meaning. Like, how is the teacher showing up in the room? How are they helping students build relationships with each other?

How are they building relationships with their own students? Like the teacher building relationships and how are they engaging?

This is our work in particular in.

Experiential learning, specifically having kids make an action and then reflect on that action.

And then repeat that cycle.

Okay, I like that. And then do you have to, would you have to be an educator first in order to start becoming a teacher who teaches teachers?

Or can you just come out the gate saying, I'm going to be a teacher who teaches teachers?

I think 99.9% of instructional coaches, no matter like how their job has manifested, have probably been with classroom educators.

Okay.

In some way.

The, probably the exception to that is sometimes folks who pursue educational leadership, like a principal or vice principal, they may come from a different path within education. Like a lot of school counselors pursue school leadership roles.

They may not have been like a.

Classroom teacher, but they probably worked in.

A school for a long time.

Yeah.

And kind of related to your question, like, my path to all of this is really strange.

Like, like I didn't major in education.

I wasn't a classroom teacher right away. I was, you know, we say professional teaching artist. I don't know what an unprofessional teaching artist is, but that was my primary role for years.

I was, you know, going into schools and teaching theater, writing, storytelling, even visual.

Arts for short periods. Right.

Like six weeks, nine weeks, maybe once a week for the whole year. But still, like, I was still like.

The funny, weird guy that stopped by.

My first classroom teaching gig was at St. Clement School, which is a Catholic.

School in Lincoln Park.

And I was like their in house drama teacher. And that was the first time I was there, like with my own classroom.

And then later.

I was scared I.

Would run out of my bag of tricks.

Okay.

So used to teaching six to nine weeks.

Right.

Like, I was so used to. I basically had like 10 to 15 tried and true lessons that would Change.

But when I.

When I. Yeah, when I first got.

That classroom, I was teaching third grade through eighth grade drama, and I was.

Like, oh, I need enough lessons for the whole year. You know, there's a little imposter syndrome there. Like, I had taught so many different kinds of things with looking glass and.

With playmakers and, like, you know, everything.

From, like, mime to improv to storytelling to adaptation. So I actually did have a pretty big bag of tricks, but I was like, oh, this is. There's a lot of school.

Yeah.

And then that was sort of built.

Even more upon when I taught high.

School for two years, where I was teaching every day.

Um.

Cause when I was at the Catholic school, I was there two days a week. Um, and when I taught high school, it was every day and same kids every day, so I couldn't run out of lessons.

Yeah. And I feel like if I was to teach, I always would get scared of having to be like, hey, guys, listen up. Hey, hey, listen up.

Like, the discipline, classroom management. Yeah. That seems really, really intimidating.

It is. Same tricks don't work with the same age groups. The same tricks don't work with the same length with all of your 10th graders. Like, everyone.

The kids and the classes are really different. The same tricks don't work in first period versus the period after lunch, which. Yeah, listening.

They just nodded their head because your class right after a student goes to lunch is the wildest class you're going to teach.

All that.

The whole teaching artist thing is such, like, you're right. Like, there's, like, what defines a teaching artist?

Like, if I teach a workshop at the museum and it's just for a day, am I a teaching artist that I just get to call myself a teaching artist for that one day, but not after.

Or.

Like, you had the classroom and you had six, nine weeks, so you had, like, this career of teaching artists. Um, yeah, it's just like a weird. Like, it comes in and out.

And then, like, I know, like, artists have, like, a hard time sometimes, like, defining themselves as a teaching artist. Like, they just say, don't call me a teaching artist. Like, it's just. It's such a bizarre, you know, the idea of all this.

And it's a job. Another just, like, instructional coach. It was a job. I didn't know it existed.

But then when I look back, I.

Was like, well, wait, no. Like, that fun lady did come to.

My third grade class and we did creative drama.

That's what that was like. I just understand that.

You know, I didn't Clock that.

But it is, it's an interesting role. It's an under, like, noticed role, you know, in a lot of ways. But I think the real, like, purpose behind that title, which is kind of a funny title.

Professional Teaching artist. Yeah, I think the professional actually refers to the artist part. Like, the point being someone who works in the field is now coming in to teach.

So their expertise is probably not day to day teaching. It is the art form.

And so they're coming in, and I.

Didn'T understand this when I was younger either.

They're coming in to be a partner.

With the classroom teacher.

Right.

Particularly if you're like only there six weeks, you need that teacher to be.

In the room helping with that.

Classroom management.

Yep, classroom management period.

And being the expert on their students.

Right.

Like the third grade teacher that sees them every day is going to know those students way better than you're going to get to know them in six to nine weeks. And so there really is a partnership there.

Especially thinking about, like, what is the expertise of these, like two collaborating people, like the classroom teacher versus the professional language. But I do think anyone once, like you just asked in your question, kind of like once you do it.

Yeah. You're. That's what you are, you know.

Yeah.

Outside of the classroom, you do so many other, like, really fun projects. Like, what are some of your favorite personal projects that you've done?

Oh, man.

Well, it's been really different post Covid than pre Covid. I used to work too much in general and too much on creative projects in the sense I was like never home.

And then I think for a lot.

Of people, like, Covid was a real.

Reckoning about work, life, balance.

But it also changed the landscape of live art. There's less live theater being produced in this city than there was before. And that's just like, interesting and noticeable. So it's changed a lot.

Like during COVID Covid.

I know you know this.

Like, I had a podcast at Three Seasons and it was about like food free. And that was because, I mean, I was something I was interested in and it was something I was writing about. But I also, for me at that.

Time, like, I wanted to create art.

Hey. We had to take a quick break, but we will be right back after this.

Real talk. How many opportunities have you bookmarked and never apply to?

I know I have.

And you know what? It happens. The admin part of the work we're doing is understandably boring and tedious, but when you neglect it, it can cost you real opportunities.

That's why I created Artist Admin Hour. Because behind every exhibition is a clear budget submitted. That makes sense. Admin Hour is the flex. It's the work that makes the work work.

But you don't have to do it alone. Every Wednesday, 7 to 9pm Central Artists show up on Zoom to tackle what we've been avoiding.

Residency applications, grant apps, budgets, invoices, whatever's on your list. Two hours of body doubling with structure, no shame and real community. 25 to 45amonth gets you in.

But if that's not doable, you if.

Email me because getting this done is very important. We will make it work. Stop letting admins sabotage your practice. Join us today at artist admin hour.com.

Wlpnlp Chicago 105.5 FM Lumpen radio We.

Are back on NOSY AF and we.

Were speaking with Joe Schubach in its intended form. Like, I didn't want personally to like.

Move theater on to the Internet. Like for me, I consumed a lot of Internet theater during that time, but I didn't want to make it.

So I was really interested in like.

Staying creative and then and producing not in the capitalistic way, but in the.

Regular ways during that time in things that were like, intended to be consumed the way I was producing them.

So I was writing like nonfiction.

I was making that podcast. Cause I was really excited about like.

Podcasts would be online either way regardless.

Of whether or not this like massive, ridiculous, terrible thing was happening.

Yeah.

And then since then I did, I've done a couple fun projects.

I did a stage reading for an.

International climate change theater festival.

And that's like a. I think it's like biannual, I can't remember, but it's.

An international festival where playwrights make short plays that are somehow related to climate change.

Okay, cool.

Yeah. And so we did like a reading around that.

And then I've worked a bunch over.

The years, but over the last couple years too, with Papuajah Hell, which does Chicago based historical reenactments.

Okay.

And so I did a. I directed a reenactment of.

And they're all based on anniversaries. So it was a big anniversary for Kukla, Fran and Ollie, which was the first televised puppet show, like nationally syndicated televised puppet show.

And we put like, put on a.

Like puppet show that was like a tribute.

Yeah, yeah.

Last year, a similar kind of event. It was the hundredth anniversary of the National Barn Dance, which was a nationally.

Syndicated country radio show.

The first of its kind.

And so we recreated like a version of that country radio show to celebrate that anniversary.

And that was really cool.

So those were both, like, kind of.

Like, historically motivated theatrical events.

And then I'm very slowly writing a play.

Oh, tell us about it.

Oh, yeah, it's very slowly writing it. Very slowly writing it.

I grew up going to Bible camp.

Okay.

Kind of like, you know, like Jesus camp, the documentary, like, relatively conservative, very.

Like, religious summer camp.

And that came with a lot of, like, trauma for me and a lot.

Of things that I needed to, like.

Explore and break down and better understand over the years. So I'm writing a play that's set in a relatively conservative Bible camp.

And that space that I grew up in, and the space in the play is wrestling with queerness, and is there a place for queerness in religion in this particular Bible camp in this play? And it wrestles with the questions of the need for absolution.

Like, do we need the. What do we need to be forgiven for? And, like, are we innately problematic? Are we innately lovable? And I'm burying the lead here, but.

Like, it's also a play about aliens, so.

Okay.

Sort of like, you know, Friday the 13th meets the faculty, or Angels in.

America meets Invasion of the Body Snatchers. It's exploring, like, all of those themes.

Through, like, a kind of classic alien invasion.

Well, will it be funny? Because I keep laughing as you talk.

Okay.

I know. My hope is it'll be funny, it'll be scary, it'll be sad, and it.

Will scratch the itch of, like, just kind of like, classic. Like, Buffy vibes classic. You know, Close Encounters with the Third kinds. Like, vibes.

Like, I'm playing a lot or leaning.

Into, like, genre, but also, like, wrestling with some, like, tougher stuff.

Will it come with a workbook or study guide?

I mean, that's not a bad idea. Yeah, those things called, like, shadow work.

Oh, shadow work.

Yeah. Yeah, I see a lot of workbooks about that. Like, sort of asking yourself the tough questions.

Yeah. And I remember, I think it was Kirk Cameron, he would do, like, Christian films that come with a study guide for you to go through with your family.

So. And then I met another filmmaker at a film festival recently where all her films she wrote study guides with.

And I was like, wow, just, like, comprehension questions, I guess. Why not?

I'm, like, the exact age of someone who was in high school when the Left behind series was, like, at the.

Top of its popularity.

Okay.

The popular book series about the end.

Times and the rapture.

And I'm actually. I'm not Rereading it or anything. But the themes of rapture are very, like, important in my play.

I'm like, in your play.

Okay, like, the.

The events of the Book of Revelation.

And, like, like, the.

The idea of, like, somebody's getting sucked up.

And, like, who.

Who is it?

Is it, like the good people, quote, unquote, air quotes, or, like, the problematic.

People, like, who's getting sucked where.

Yeah, at the end times.

So that's interesting you brought up Kirk Cameron, because that instantly reminds me of Left behind and makes me think about.

The sort of, in particular, the 90s.

Obsession with the end times.

Yes. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm so excited about this play that you are slowly, slowly writing. But you know what? Let's. Let's talk about your podcast.

Mirpuai. Mirpoi. Did I say it right?

Mirepoix.

Mirepoix. Mirepoix. What's. What does that word mean?

Oh, my gosh, great question. So it's a French word, and it refers to the. The base of a recipe that is. It specifically is onion, carrot, and celery.

So mirepoix is, like, when you chop up those vegetables and you, like, cook.

Them down, and then you build the.

Recipe up from there.

Okay.

And while that's, like, commonly, specifically, commonly used in, like, French and Italian cooking and, like, the. The diaspora of those flavors, which is a fancy way to say, like, the colonial influence of those flavors.

Taking, like, three, two, three, four vegetables and starting a recipe by, like, cooking it down is, like, a global practice. And you see it in, like, all different places.

You see it with, like, pepper, onion, and garlic.

You see it with, like, just, like, every. Like, there's infinite iterations of, like, vegetables that you can start your, like, flavor base with.

Okay.

And it creates a depth of flavor, and it's related to, like, often, like.

An embodied practice in a particular culture.

Or country or region where, like, a.

Lot of recipes will start with the same two, three, four vegetables. And that's why I named the podcast.

That I was looking at.

Sort of, like embodied practice, cultural roots.

Autoethnography, and thinking about, like, where does.

Our relationship with food come from and how is that?

My.

My sort of theory was that our relationship with food is, like, hyper enmeshed.

With our memory, with our.

Our.

Our family and, like, lineage and, like.

Vector of history behind us.

And that, like, all of, like, those.

Memories are also, like, hyper connected to, like, our senses, particularly, like, smell and taste, but also, like, sound like. And how those, like, small things, like smelling something or Hearing something can, like.

Bring you back to a particular time.

And, like, is a form of time travel.

Okay, very cool.

Yeah. So I did three seasons of that podcast, and then at that same time.

Was finishing my MFA in creative writing.

And wrote a series of essays that.

Were about food and memory. And, like, how can, like, a.

Any sort of sensory experience, including, like.

A bite of food or, like, a.

Smell coming from someone else's kitchen, can sort of transport you back to a particular moment, a place or space or moment in time? And that was, like, in the context of COVID and isolation, like, thinking about.

How you could cook, you know, your.

Grandma'S recipe, and even though she wasn't.

There because of COVID or not, there.

Was, like, a relationship there, and there was, like, a. There's a preservation of history.

Yeah. That's really interesting. As a way to sort of, like, using food as a way to combat loneliness.

Combat loneliness. Like, revisit the past.

Yeah, very.

Like, almost like an offering or talisman to ancestors.

Like, when I make. I make things that remind me of my mom or my grandma's, and, like, it reminds me of them, but also it feels like a. Like an offering or a ritual that.

Sort of honors their memory and their legacy.

Has your relationship to food when you were doing this series, like, when there was shelter in place, like, has your relationship changed now that we're out of that?

A hundred percent.

I mean, number one, I think my.

Relationship with food changed in lockdown.

Like, yeah. Not only.

I mean, obviously we could still get delivery there for most of that time.

Yeah.

But, like, I was cooking for myself more often because I was home.

Yeah.

And that lended itself to, like, longer recipes. Like, I was making red sauce on Sundays. Like, for real. For real.

Like, oh, wow. All day cooking, you know, And I was more, like, open to longer cooking.

Experiences because I had the time, at least.

Yeah.

And to quote one of our mutual friends, Christina Anthony, she talked about during that time, like, setting the table for yourself even if you were eating alone or even if you were eating with.

Someone else and at home, like, you.

Could still do the small things that made things special during a train time.

Lighting a candle, using cloth napkins.

Like, sitting down at the table.

Yeah. Make it jazzy. Make it jazzy for yourself.

Make it jazzy.

And, like, make it, like, acknowledge that it's okay to give yourself a gift.

In those moments, like, you don't have company. To, like, have a nice little time to make a nice meal, to put.

In that, like, effort and that, like, work of love.

Of a really honest to goodness cooking. So I think, like, that changed my relationship a ton. And then coming out of COVID is. I think it's more your question. Like, that's interesting.

A lot of that, like, retracted for me.

Okay.

And I'm still a cooker. Like, I'm still a home. An untrained home chef.

You know, I love it. But, you know.

How many years has it been? Six years later?

Six years. Six years.

I'm making those adult. Adult lunchables again.

You know, like, during lockdown, I was doing so much cooking, and my mom was still with us then, and I could call her and ask her, like, hey, when you make lasagna, what do you do? Or if you're making stir. I just made stir fry, and the vegetables were soggy. What did I do wrong?

And so, because of that really specific thing, like, me practicing a lot and my mom coaching me via phone, learned how to do a lot of things that I actually didn't know how to do before COVID And that's, like, informed my current cooking practice, which the sadness of that and the beautiful part of that is my mom's no longer with us, and now a lot of the home cooking I do feels like a ritual that's connected to her and an embodied practice that innately just reminds me of her.

And listen, I think a lot of people associate cooking with their mom or their grandmas, but my mom was an exceptional cook, and I feel really lucky to have inherited or learned even just a little bit of her cooking craft. You know, they make.

There's a lot of jokes online about your seasoning, and you do it until the ancestors tell you to stop, you know, or they're beautiful, like, connections that people are sharing.

But I literally have that sort of connection with my mom while cooking where, like, I know I like, almost feel her saying, like, put water in that, otherwise it's gonna, like, cook down too fast. Oh, wow, this doesn't have enough acid in it. You know? Like, it's not just like watching cooking shows on Food Network.

It's actually like watching my mom cook for so long, cooking with my mom for so long, and, like, me calling her to, like, troubleshoot that, like, really informs that practice. So to your question, I think my relationship with cooking changed because of COVID I think it changed after Covid.

It absolutely changed with the passing of our mom. But it's very, like, dynamic and always changing.

And I think the story and the ritual and the offering to yourself, to others, to those who have passed in cooking is really, like, profound to me and only become more powerful even though I stopped writing that book. I mean, I finished writing that. That book of essays, and I don't make that podcast anymore. But my relationship to it has even evolved since then.

Yeah. Would you revisit it?

You think I would? I actually. I mean, I never actually. Literally never, never got that book. I never tried to get that book of essays published.

I should have.

I'm sure my advisor, if she's listening right now, is mad about that for me.

But it.

You know, the context of that text was about COVID It really was. That's how it developed. But losing my mom has really changed the way I even, like, think back to that writing. And I wonder if I want to, like, re.

Look at that and consider, like, bookending it with my mom's loss, or at the very least, what I've learned since lockdown, and maybe, like, rewriting a little bit more or revisiting it and thinking about, like, not in the capitalistic way, but in the creative way, like, how.

Do I want to pack it?

And I always said I would go back to the podcast if somebody wanted to fund it. So. Yeah, listen, Oprah, Brene Brown, if you're listening, we.

We love funding.

I'll do it for money.

Yeah. Yeah. Can you still listen to it? Is it still out there? Yeah, right.

Still out there.

It's on all the places it's on, I think all the. The places that this podcast is digitally not Lumpin, but.

Yeah.

You know, Apple music and all that.

Yeah.

Some of these people are still listening, which is really funny. There's somebody listening, like, once a week. I don't know who you are, but thank you.

They're like, let's just revisit this one more time.

Yeah.

It might need its own study guide.

Now we're talking.

You know, going back to education really quick. Like, if you could make your own school, like, could you dream up, like, your own education system, or what do you think it could be?

Well, first of all, I'll say the obligatory thing, which is education has not changed that much since the Industrial Revolution. We are still teaching at large the same way that kids were getting taught a really long time ago.

That's why transformation of education is important to me, my job, and to so many practitioners out there. I really.

I think we haven't thoroughly and effectively evaluated how we reach young people, not just in this new Internet landscape, but, like, really in a really long time. There's been big movements that have turned into models instead of Changing how we teach. Like, an example is Montessori. Montessori was radical.

She created this completely different way to teach. And then that was commodified into essentially like either a private school or like a methodology that could be adopted by an individual school.

But it didn't change the larger educational landscape. So not to get like, too nerdy, but, like, something needs to happen to transform the way that we work with young people and teach young people.

And having 33 to 36 kids in a room with one teacher isn't the vibe.

Is that really that many?

It can be. There's the cap. Might be 33 or 34, I can't remember.

That sounds like a college lecture hall.

Hello.

But to your question, like, yeah, if I ran the circus or whatever that idiom is, there's so many things I would want to try for the first time because they haven't been available to me. There's some really cool schools out there that are doing really cool stuff. High tech high in San Diego. You should look them up.

They are really cool and they are really, like, rethought the way that school buildings are constructed. Everything from what a school building looks like to like, what good practice is to how do you put students in the driver's seat of their learning?

How do you showcase student work? They're really cool. But yeah, I mean, I care a lot about arts integration. I care a lot about experiential learning, genuine experiential learning.

This taking an action and then reflecting on it before moving on and making helping students make meaning and build up that reflective muscle that will serve them later in life to make meaning out of their experiences.

But I also wish, like, school was a lot weirder and a lot more creative and a lot more flexible, like, and maybe more than we can even imagine right now.

I know there's a school in Otana, Minnesota that is set up kind of more like a college where they have a ton of flexibility in where and when they do their work and when and where they meet with their teachers. And the building is set up for more like a campus, um, more like a choose your own adventure kind of learning space.

Um, and then, you know, there's probably like a hundred lovely hippie dippy schools throughout America, especially, like in Vermont, that are like, getting wild and like, going out on the farm and like, learning with cows and like, just stuff that is really impactful and important. Funnily enough, my lifelong artistic person.

Right.

But my first encounter with like, experiential learning was actually like, nature education.

When I was little, we lived in Massachusetts and there was a ton of like programs and connections with the classroom about like the national seashore and like the coast and like learning about what's in the ocean and what's on the coast and what's in the tide pools and. And that's really where my like hands on education I first encountered it.

I mean aside from like preschool, which is cool cause you get to do like a lot of really cool stuff. But it's so interesting because not a lot, there's not a lot of integration of that stuff.

Like why isn't there more like arts integration that's connected to nature education and like science and you could like match up like subjects all the live long day and be like, why aren't we connecting history to math or whatever and really thinking about not just hands on learning?

Because I think that that phrase has almost lost its meaning, but like immersive, creative, complex learning environments that yes, get kids excited about learning, but actually in the end replicate real world application more than sit in silence and like regurgitate, you know.

Yeah.

And we talk a lot about like the problem of like just this one problem that like as a society we equate silence with learning, silence with respect, silence with engagement. And that actually number one, doesn't tell you anything. It tells you that kids are being compliant.

That's what it sounds like when they're silent. Right?

Yeah.

You know, as someone who I'm not a teacher, I don't have children or whatever, like how can I be and folks, you know, like me be like more supportive of educators education, you know, outside of just like buying something from the bake sale or. I don't know.

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think I'll, I'll, I'll have a trick answer first.

Okay.

Is I think each school and neighborhood like has different needs. So I think like the first answer to that question is like, what do. I'm thinking local, like what do your.

The teachers who live and work in your neighborhood, what do they need? What are they, what are they hopeful for from their community? And same with like schools at large. You know, schools are really different.

The needs are really different. They change all the time.

This year has taught us that like desperate need for like allyship and support and observers of schools during like pick up and drop off while the ICE was active in our city, that was a need we didn't know was going to be coming down the pipeline.

Right.

Yeah.

But that was sort of universal in some ways. And we also have some different ones.

Like, you know, like, some schools are doing, like, donors choose and like, they're literally hopeful that people will buy them the supplies that a particular classroom needs. And that has a huge impact. Every school has an lsc. And LSC is like the evolved version of a pta.

It's a local school campus and it includes like staff members, teachers, parents, community members, and they actually have like elected positions on it.

Oh, wow.

A really powerful group for the health of any school. And most people don't know that who's running for those positions, who's on those teams, what those teams do.

And they actually, there's a, there's a huge, like, possibility and potential in the LSE's. The LSE is like the principal's boss. So it's like actually powerful group.

Like, they would, you know, choose whether or not a principal was terminated if there was like, something that came up.

Wow.

They, you know, really can be thoughtful.

And.

Powerful voices and like, how money is spent. So knowing who's on your lsc, even if you don't have a child in the school that's like, in your area, is like huge.

And they would also have some answers to like, individualized questions of like, what a particular school needs.

Hmm.

Yeah, but it's kind of like local politics. It's kind of like local businesses.

Like, you know, we can sometimes guess what somebody needs, but like, actually asking is like the most important thing. One of the most.

The biggest learnings that came out of the Change Collective fellowship, which you and I both did, was the sentiment of people closest to the problem are closest to the solution. And that tells me if that's true, that I need to talk to the people who are closest to the problem.

Yeah, if they're really closest to the solution, then they're like the movers and shakers and the idea generators and kind of to your question, like, what's the best way to support teachers or education right now is probably finding out what are the micro and local problems that our teachers and educators and schools are facing.

I think from that it makes me think like, okay, who in my neighborhood are the teachers? And I'll just ask them, like, oh, what do you guys need? Like, do you have all your supplies?

Or like, do you need, you know, a crossing guard at this corner? Like, what is it that you might need? And see how I and 1 could participate and help.

Joe, as we wrap up here, is there anything else that you want to mention that before we call our conversation complete?

Well, you know what I'll give you a reframing. You know, this podcast is called Nosy af and I'm thinking about, like, nosiness as like a tool of liberation.

And like, what we were just talking about. Like, be nosy. Go to your local school council and find out what they're up to. Like, be nosy.

Go to your local teachers and educators and schools and like, uncover like, in celebratory ways what's going on and in like, supportive ways, like, what do folks need? And I think nosiness, you know, gets vilified, but like. Or just like, it's kind of like gossip gets vilified in a particular way.

But get nosy and, like, find out the answers to your questions and find out what questions you're not even asking.

Maybe there could be a Get Nosy campaign. Get to know your educators, period. I'm gonna walk in that school on Monday and I'm gonna say, my name.

Is Stephanie and I am a community.

Member and I wanna know what the heck is going on in this school.

I also wanna make a pitch for cause we talked about creative arts so much during this time.

Like, we live in a world right now where it's very seductive to be on your little screen while you're on your medium screen watching your big screen or be like, so we're so online. But it's such a gift and such a special thing to support live in person art.

Yeah, for real.

I saw a play with my friend, our friend Amy in January and I was like, oh, my gosh. And it was a scary play.

And I was like, oh, this is so thrilling to hear the audience, like, gasp and react together and like, really genuinely experience live communal art. I encourage everyone who's listening if you made it this far into this episode, to go support some in person physical art.

Well, Jill, thank you so much.

Oh, where can folks find out more information about you if they want, if they need an instructional coach for their institution, if they want to talk about directing? You know, where can we find you?

You can find out more about my organization that I work at, Embark.

You can find out More information@emarkchicago.org We work with 17 high schools in the Chicago area and we'd be delighted to talk to you if you're interested in bringing Embark to your school. And if you're just nosy about me, my artistic work, or you just need a friend, you can go to josephschubach.com it's my name.

Thank you so much and thank you, listener, for tuning in to another episode of Nosy AF on Lumpin. That's a wrap on another episode of Nosy AF conversations about art, activism and social change. I'm your host, Stephanie Graham.

If you enjoy today's conversation, please leave a five star rating and review Wherever you are listening to the show. It helps new listeners discover it and say, hey, if these folks like this show, maybe I will love it too.

Check out full show notes and transcripts@nosy af.com and while you're there, sign up for Nosy AF Dispatch, a newsletter where every month I send a roundup of of episodes, behind the scenes stories, studio tales and interesting finds straight to your inbox. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks for listening and as always, stay curious and take care. Bye.