The Digital Accessibility Podcast – Becks Brindley

In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe is joined by Becks Brindley, Digital Accessibility Lead at NatWest, who leads accessibility strategy across one of the UK’s largest banking organisations.

This episode introduces a slightly different format, with Becks also turning the tables to ask Joe questions! Creating a more open, two-way conversation that explores both in-house accessibility leadership and the external hiring landscape.

Becks shares how accessibility has been part of her journey from the very beginning, from learning to code with accessibility in mind to now leading strategy at scale. She reflects on the importance of challenging the status quo, influencing stakeholders, and keeping accessibility grounded in its core purpose... utilising technology to enable people.

We discuss:

• A career shaped by accessibility: How early exposure to accessible coding influenced Becks’ mindset and career path.
• Challenging the status quo: Building confidence to push back on inaccessible practices.
• Accessibility as a mindset: Why it should be embedded into everyday thinking, not treated as a task.
• Leading at scale: The realities of driving accessibility across a large organisation.
• Engaging stakeholders: Practical ways to start conversations and influence change.
• A two-way perspective: Insights into hiring, team building, and what good looks like across the industry.

Becks also highlights that real progress in accessibility comes from persistence and continuous improvement and not perfection.

Follow Becks Brindley:

• LinkedIn: Becks Brindley LinkedIn

Follow Joe James:

• LinkedIn: Joe James LinkedIn
• Twitter (X): A11yJoe on X
• YouTube: PCR Digital YouTube

Visit PCR Digital:

• PCR Digital Website

Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.

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If you're looking to learn more about the field of

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accessibility,

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how to implement it within your role or your company,

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or to get advice on where to start or see how others have

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navigated complex issues that you may find along the way,

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then you're in the right place.

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I'm honoured to be able to share these insightful chats

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with thought leaders,

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advocates and practitioners of digital accessibility

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throughout this podcast,

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and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.

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As always, thank you so much for listening,

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and I hope you enjoy the chat.

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Today's episode is a little different,

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and I'm really excited about it.

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We're introducing a slightly new format for the show,

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off the back of a suggestion from today's guests.

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Instead of me simply interviewing our guests,

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I'm going to actually invite them to turn the tables and

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ask me a couple of questions, too.

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Accessibility is a conversation,

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and this change gives you our listeners more insight into

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both sides of the work that we're doing.

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The lived experience,

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day-to-day experience of leaders driving accessibility in

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their organisations,

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and then my perspective recruiting and supporting

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accessibility teams across the UK.

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So with that in mind,

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I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome today's guest,

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Bex Brindley,

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the Digital Accessibility Lead at NatWest Group.

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Bex leads the digital accessibility strategy across one of

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the UK's largest banks,

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and she also serves as the Disability and Access Ambassador

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for Banking,

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championing accessible and inclusive financial services for

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customers and colleagues.

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She brings a wealth of experience,

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a passion for embedding accessibility by design,

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and a drive to help organisations shift from compliance

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toward meaningful, human-centred inclusion.

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Not to mention, she's such a fun-loving,

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warm and welcoming person who I'm always so excited to

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speak with.

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So, Bex, welcome to the podcast.

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Thanks for having me.

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What an intro.

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It's good to be here.

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Good to have a chat.

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Yeah, definitely.

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No pressure at all.

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So I know that you, same as me,

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sometimes can get a bit of anxiety, I suppose.

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But yeah, it's just a chat.

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And I know that you've got a couple of furry friends in the

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office with you as well to keep your company.

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So you can set them on me if.

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The pandas are out here.

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And for those of you that don't know what the pandas are,

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so we have one here.

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It's a lovely red panda.

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Incredibly soft and weighted.

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And so think of it as a weighted blanket, weighted jumper,

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and we use it as a conversation starter.

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And just often just put the panda on a table and cracking

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them with accessibility work,

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and then people start a conversation with you.

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So other animals are around.

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And yeah, they're just hanging around with me generally.

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Love it.

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Absolutely love it.

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I need to get one myself.

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But brilliant.

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So we always like to start the podcast episodes with a bit

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of background on our guests.

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And you've achieved so much in this space.

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Very well known and respected advocate and thought leader.

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So really interested to know where it all started or what

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your earliest memory of working accessibility was.

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So, I learnt to code, right?

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I learnt to code.

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And I got taught about coding excessively,

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and so it seemed really odd to me when I went into the

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world of work that people weren't coding excessively and

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that it wasn't something they'd learnt about.

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So, you know,

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kudos to the people that taught me how to be kind of a

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burden and all that.

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So, I...

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It was there from the beginning.

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And then I remember actually one of the...

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My earliest memories of my career and pushing back on

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somebody who was like,

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you won't put my content up because it's not accessible.

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And all I was trying to do was say, look,

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we want everyone to be able to read your content.

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We...

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You know, you want to get your message over.

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I probably wasn't eloquent and figured out how to speak to

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quite senior people at that point,

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and made the eyes a bit blunt.

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And just said, well, no, you didn't do it like this.

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And that actually really stayed with me.

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And I remember somebody saying, you know,

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you're the tail wagging the dog.

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And I think about that comment about me quite a lot, right?

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And I think if that's the tail wagging the dog,

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then I'm happy to be the tail.

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So, I actually pulled this through everything I did.

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It was always part of my role when I did UX and I was

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looking at hours in the lab watching, you know,

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running usability sessions.

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And I had people not pressing on the big red button.

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I didn't really...

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You know, because it's too scary.

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Everyone wants to press it.

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But it seemed really obvious that they should press the big

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red button.

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And that was really interesting.

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And then...

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And then I just really wanted to deliver stuff for people.

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I'm a tech girl with a background.

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STEM ambassador.

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Love...

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Love kind of talking to...

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Getting people into STEM, getting people into coding,

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and understanding the role that tech can play.

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And really, it's just all part of this.

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The technology and the power of technology should be used

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to help people.

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And accessibility is that, right?

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It's actually the power of technology to enable everyone to

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live in the world.

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And we shouldn't be excluding people from that.

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So, it's been part of it.

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And I landed in this role because I pitched for it.

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I was like, we need to...

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We need to fix accessibility.

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We need to do this not as a project.

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We need to do this as something that's embedded.

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And I intended to do that.

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And then go off and continue delivering tech and customer

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experiences.

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And I'm still here.

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So, once I kind of found the community, I was like, well,

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why would you leave?

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This is such a great place to be.

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So, that's it, really.

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It feels like the right thing.

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Maybe ask me in a year's time.

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See where I'm at.

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Fair.

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It feels like the right thing and it seems at this point in

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sort of the technology transformation that's going on that,

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you know, why wouldn't you want to be here?

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Why wouldn't you want to work in this space?

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So that's really my question to people.

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Yeah, amazing.

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And that's the thing.

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I mean,

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it's kind of a lot of advocacy and a lot of awareness

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raising or evangelism around accessibility.

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There's so many words, there's so many, so much jargon,

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I suppose, and it can make it a bit scary at times.

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But I think that, well, like you mentioned,

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they're under the hood, it's usability,

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it's making your products better for everyone,

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considering everyone and keeping them in the room.

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The commercials, right?

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Why wouldn't you...?

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Like, if you're running a commercial business,

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why wouldn't you want to make sure that as many people as

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possible want to use and have the ability to use your

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products?

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It makes sense from that side.

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And I know sometimes that can be quite difficult to talk

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about commercials.

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But I think it's actually really helpful to say, look,

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why wouldn't you want this?

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And this is what's happening,

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and why are you aware this is happening?

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So...

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Yeah, definitely, just makes sense, that's it.

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Right, end of the podcast, there we go.

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makes sense.

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Let's go.

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Why is it not happening?

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And I think that's probably the bigger question is like,

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you know, it's not easy.

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So yeah.

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true brilliant well i mean as it brings us nicely into the

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first formal question i suppose so the the core philosophy

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at NatWest um you've been a huge advocate for embedding

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accessibility by design so not just as a checklist or

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remediation step but as something that's really shaping the

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decisions right from the very beginning um so the question

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i suppose is what does accessible by design really mean

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within NatWest how's that influencing you know product

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development digital journeys colleague training i'm

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expanding this question hugely i'm sorry but what impacts

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does it have yeah

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So we talk about what it means first,

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and then see where we land.

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And for me, this is about the system.

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So it's the system, not the person.

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And I know that could feel a bit controversial,

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but let me sort of talk about what this is really about.

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It's about creating an environment so that people,

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colleagues, everyone you interact with, your suppliers,

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consider accessibility from inception all the way through

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to monitoring, you know,

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the experience of your product or service.

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Your experience, in this case, it's banking.

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And one of the things that really made a difference for me,

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I did some training a while back on agile methodologies.

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And there is this graphic knuckle because clearly it's,

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you know, I'm not going to read like a massive book.

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There is a massive book if you want to read it,

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and you can read all the likes, if that's your thing.

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But there's a graphic knuckle,

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and it's called The Goal of the Theory of Constraints.

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And it really, it really helped me because in this story,

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there's a professor and a business owner,

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and the professor agrees to help the business owner.

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And it's really unhelpful.

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Or it seems to be, it's pretty unhelpful from the outset,

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because the business owner is like, I've got this problem,

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I can't manufacture stuff on time.

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And what the professor does is answer questions with

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questions, and really gets to the bottom of actually,

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you need to empower your team,

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you need to look at your system,

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and then give some tactics along the way,

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like maybe you should go look at kind of cycle time and

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things like that.

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But what really stood out to me was it was all about kind

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of the thinking of how you get the system working.

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Where is the problem in the system?

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Is it upstream?

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Is it downstream?

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And actually, it's your team that will have the answers.

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And so every time in the story, the business owner,

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we fix this, but then this happens.

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And the professor sits there and yeah, yeah, yeah,

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we can give any answers.

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I feel like the team at NatWest are going to come and get

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me because they're like, that's what you do,

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but you don't give me answers, you ask questions.

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And so what I would say is it's about empowering the team.

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So we have the processes, we have the system,

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we have environment, and we have then decisions.

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And I'm a big believer that people inherently come in to

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make good decisions.

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And so it must be the process,

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it must be the system that we blame.

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We've all the blame over onto the system.

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And then we help the people out.

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So that's really what it is,

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but it's about accessibility being part of that

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conversation.

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So it's not something that is left to chance.

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And really,

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there's a couple of spaces with accessible by design,

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if you take that's the kind of core, just asking questions.

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What I would say is it gives me the ability to work with

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teams at different stages of their accessibility maturity.

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So you can have people that like, what is it?

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And you can say, well, it's accessible by design,

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which just I just need you to think about this stuff.

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And then you've got teams that are absolutely looking at it

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day to day,

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they're talking about it in retros that they're kind of

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bringing that they're kind of show and tells and with

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assistive tech.

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And they're bringing that to life every single day.

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So it has this breadth of meaning that can work for anyone.

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But it's all about driving the conversation and good

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decisions.

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But what is a good decision?

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What's a good decision to me might not be the right

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decision for the customer,

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which is why I go back to it's about the team and the

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people in the teams really making those decisions.

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And right or wrong, we then use the data and we go, okay,

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that's that's what that hazard will go back to the

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beginning.

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And and the cycle continues.

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It's ever evolving.

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And and that's kind of where it comes from.

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So it's it's good fun.

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And I really enjoy the I really enjoy working with people

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understanding what makes them tick, why things happening.

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And then we we go on from that and never blame the person

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always,

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always look at what's the environment that's that's pause

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that's how you have the wider.

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Yeah, definitely.

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And then I guess that snowball effect of the questions,

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so you're asking a question or they may have more questions

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and then it will just,

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they'll go on to ask the right people and it's including

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more people then in that discussion I suppose to get to the

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bottom of things and make decisions.

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And, you know, so just two things in it.

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Most accessibility teams are quite small.

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So now I've got around 60,000 people.

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There's no way I can get around to everyone.

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So the idea of a snowball,

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the idea of the dominoes going through is that then those

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people will be asking questions,

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and the questions will ask questions,

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which is hopefully we get some answers at some point.

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And that then kind of feeds itself.

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But also the idea that I might have all the answers just

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amuses me.

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Like, I can't have all the answers.

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And that's the great thing about empowering your teams,

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empowering your people, is that, gosh,

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they just the way designers were handing over to developers

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and the way they were using the software and how they could

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do that.

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And I just am not close enough to the way designers work in

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and interact with all of their things.

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And they've just come up with kind of the best way to

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translate that by working with developers.

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And they just blow my mind when they do that stuff.

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And I think I'd have never had that answer.

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Good job I asked a question though.

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Yeah, exactly.

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There you go.

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Advocate for the question asking all the time.

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That's the thing.

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I think there's so much innovation in this space,

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isn't there?

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That's the thing.

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I think there's so many people that might think of it as a

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checklist or regulation or something like that,

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but actually there's some real great stuff,

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like grapefruit being born from the accessibility work that

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people are doing.

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But brilliant.

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And then in terms of those sort of projects and things,

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you and your team have been involved in some really

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impactful projects,

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from improvements to the digital products,

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the inclusive design work,

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enhancements that directly support customers with diverse

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access needs as well.

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So could you share some of the recent accessibility

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initiatives that you're really proud of?

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I guess what made them meaningful for customers and

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colleagues?

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I found this question, I find it really, really tough,

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because it's like picking your favourite child right now,

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or your favourite panda.

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And you look at it as it menacingly looks over my shoulder

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at me.

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Because I just think every change...

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This is how I get around, that's okay.

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Every change that everyone's making, I celebrate.

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And I know how difficult everything is and, you know,

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what people go through for all of the things they do.

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So, I think that's the first thing.

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I'm super proud of some kind of the stuff that happens in

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the mobile app around labelling, which is not easy.

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And it has to happen consistently over, you know, hundreds,

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thousands of screens that are kicking around there.

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But the thing I've seen with labelling,

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just to give a shout out to it, for those of you,

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it's making sure everything is reading out,

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explaining what those interactive elements are.

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There's an act of it not doing too much and over egging it,

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and having too much clutter, audio clutter,

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but having enough that people can understand what's

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happening and what they might want to do.

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And one of...

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This might sound a bit random,

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but one of the things in that is error messaging.

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And when we've had kind of people in and using the screen

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reader tech and kind of talking to us,

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one of the things they always tell me is, wow,

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I love your error messaging.

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So it makes sense, though, because it's the unhappy path.

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We need to, as accessibility professionals,

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to get on my high horse,

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make sure that the unhappy path is working,

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that when stuff goes not to plan,

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that we can allow people to get out of it and know what

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their next step is and what they can do.

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And I think that's really important,

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and it's probably the things that you don't think about,

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maybe.

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But I'm super proud of that because our customers have told

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us, and you've told us from the...

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Told me from the accessibility community.

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So that's one.

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I've got a couple of others, if I can, and you'll allow me.

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So we were looking internally at the lovely topic of AI,

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and...

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I'll take it back.

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I'm joking.

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Okay.

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And one of the things that I'm really,

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I'm really proud that we managed to do was in the early

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pilots going on,

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looking at how that was helping colleagues,

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we spin up what we termed an accessibility cohort.

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So I managed to get a kind of subset of people that we

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could spin into that pilot,

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especially for neurodivergent colleagues, it did go wider.

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And really,

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we started to see the benefits really early on about the

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benefits of AI, essentially, for neurodivergent colleagues.

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And I was one of them, happy days,

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super happy to talk about the mental and cognitive load it

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took off me.

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But what it did was it put it at the forefront of all the

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conversations that then have been going on.

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So I would again say, you don't have to do everything.

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But those conscious decisions,

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why are you going to put your your kind of rocks in the

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pond?

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And then the kind of downstream impact is the accessibility

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is getting baked into those conversations because of that

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initial cohort.

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So that's, that's pretty, that's pretty cool.

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And then how can I not mention,

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I've talked about the pandas,

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but how can we not talk about the PAND program here,

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or officially known as the NatWest accessibility center by

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its formal name.

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And, and, and this was, you know,

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this was one of those things that you go to the Google

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accessibility discovery center,

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and you're that we could have these conversations with

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people with.

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And then you go, well, we're split over multi locations.

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How does that work?

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And,

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and then you go and chat with Mims over at Stepstone and

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shout out to her and letting us rock up to one of her MP

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lab sessions.

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And in you go, okay,

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I can see the benefit of having some of this stuff about

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and having the ability to bring to life a conversation at

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times when we talk about digital, it's,

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it's not very tactile.

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And we're humans, right?

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We like to touch stuff.

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We like to get, you know, feel, you know,

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feel what things feel like, and look at stuff,

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move things around.

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And,

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and I think it just completely changed my perspective that

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you could do things quite quickly,

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and then learn and turn it around.

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And that's really where the accessibility center came

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from.

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It is a kind of pop up,

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it can go anywhere across the company.

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To some degree, it doesn't need that much.

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The first one was Braille Lego, Braille Lego.

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And the conversations, it then starts, and again,

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I'll go back to good conversations.

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You're having a conversation about the impact that

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assistive tech has on the lives of people,

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you're having conversations about the role of

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accessibility, and the people you're talking to,

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what action can they take?

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So we kind of we start with the panda program,

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we have this cuddly panda,

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which some people are really drawn to, others aren't,

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that's fine.

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And they're like,

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why have you got cuddly panda in your face?

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It's weighted, right?

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It's weighted, it's soft, we talk about anxiety.

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And then we talk about probably their family or their

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friends that have this.

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And then we talk about what we do with accessibility,

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the impact it has for customers and colleagues,

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and then what can they do?

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And then taking that away into their teams.

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So it is about passing it on, always about passing it on.

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And I guess I completely underestimated,

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I underestimated the power of something fun.

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You know, I'm going to have to show you,

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she's sitting here Barbie.

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I'm doing all the product endorsements here.

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Other brands are available, okay?

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But I love her because she has got her pink dress on,

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and she's got her sparkly pink prosthetic and to match with

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her high heels.

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Look at that, just smashing it out.

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And some people resonate with different elements,

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just because of their own personal experiences.

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And then what we're doing is driving that into advocacy

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into their teams.

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So it's then that person can take it on.

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I'm not giving them answers,

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I'm giving them more questions.

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So that's been, you know,

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I really can't go into any more products because there's so

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many, but it's the small stuff.

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I have to say,

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I'm a big fan of the small stuff and celebrating the small

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stuff.

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And more of it needs to happen, doesn't it?

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I think because it's quite hard to quantify the exact

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amount of change or amount of impact that something has

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made on one person or a group of people when you make

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updates to features or you remediate something,

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but especially within accessibility,

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because some people might just say, well,

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actually it's the market, you know,

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we're just more popular and more people that use screen

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readers are using us because they need our services more

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now and this time of the year, but actually, you know,

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trying to show and quantify the exact amount of change and

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small, small,

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the small stuff matters because all of it matters.

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It's all, you know, positive.

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the edges,

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it's when you move people across stuff that often it can

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go, you can go into that unhappy path, right?

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So that's where the kind of,

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the detail and the small things really matter when we start

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to move between channels, platforms, you know,

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different experiences.

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That they're the things that make or break experiences for

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us human beings, right?

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Yes, exactly.

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Absolutely.

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And then again, under the hood, that's all we are.

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Just human beings, Joyce.

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We might be handed in disguise.

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We might be.

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God, did you imagine?

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Um,

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but that familiarity is something that really does help,

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I think, with those conversations, because I've very, um,

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to me,

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surprisingly been asked to do a few talks to talk to,

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you know,

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internal teams at some of our clients and hopefully future

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prospect clients and just to raise that awareness and in

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preparation for those talks,

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I'm trying to put that bit of familiarity in, you know,

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get people involved and thinking outside of just the norm,

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the system, the broken system.

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Yeah,

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so the system is the kind of thing that we need to look at

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as a whole,

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but we are dealing with people and we're dealing with all

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of their complexities and exciting elements that we are as

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people and the differences in that.

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So I think just fundamentally understanding where people

560

are coming from, meeting where they are, all of that stuff,

561

you have to start with understanding us as people and also

562

recognizing that your experience is not someone else's.

563

So, you know, go back to that big red button.

564

Why isn't that person pressing the big red button?

565

Because it's super scary and, you know,

566

it's not super scary to me.

567

So, or someone's not labelled it properly,

568

it's not visible.

569

Yeah,

570

I think there's just so much to learn in this space and

571

every time you have a conversation with someone new,

572

you learn something new,

573

you learn like another perspective about the way that they

574

interact with the world and and that's all we're doing here

575

is we're looking to make really great experiences,

576

great interactions.

577

100%.

578

Brilliant.

579

And again, so the challenge is in driving that at scale.

580

You know, I can imagine in your role,

581

working inside a huge major organisation,

582

you mentioned 60,000 people,

583

especially in the finance sector as well,

584

it will have its own unique.

585

We are regulated.

586

We are regulated.

587

Happy days.

588

But with that, I mean,

589

what would you say that's one of the larger challenges or

590

what would you say is one of the biggest challenges driving

591

accessibility at scale across, you know,

592

trying to get it across the board?

593

I...

594

When I thought about this one, okay,

595

I thought about what would I tell myself if I was starting

596

the adventure again?

597

And so I would...

598

I frame it in my head if it helps like this.

599

It's really good when you shift your mindset.

600

It can become really easy to be frustrated with it's not...

601

Because you can...

602

As soon as you see it, you can't un-see it.

603

And you can become quite frustrated, you know,

604

why hasn't this happened?

605

Why...

606

Why hasn't this changed?

607

Knowing about this.

608

And...

609

And what I found really helpful in my interactions with

610

people, senior leaders, or, you know,

611

people at all levels of the company,

612

is when I shifted my mindset to everyone's here looking to

613

do a good job.

614

What don't they understand?

615

What don't I understand?

616

And I just get super curious about what's happening.

617

And then I...

618

What I found in that mindset shift is I learned loads and

619

got really interested,

620

and the conversations were really good.

621

So that would be my...

622

You know, that is...

623

They are the challenges you have to be mindful of

624

frustration.

625

And if you are frustrated, you know, go for a walk,

626

hug a panda, you know, I don't know, whatever...

627

Watch the telly.

628

Whatever...

629

Whatever is really good for you.

630

Just try and give yourself a break and say, look,

631

I can't fix it all today.

632

And, you know, I'm at a moment to be at that point.

633

But self-indulgent, right?

634

So I think that's the big thing.

635

We sort of talked about one of the others,

636

which is start with a person, you know,

637

really understand the person in front of you,

638

and then blame the system.

639

And then look at what's going on around you in the

640

environment and what could be fixed.

641

And have a plan.

642

You...

643

This is where the maturity model for me came in.

644

And right, I was probably at the beginning.

645

Let's have my age.

646

Yeah, we can do everything.

647

Come on, let's do everything.

648

Let's go.

649

Yeah.

650

And yeah, obviously we can do an accessibility centre.

651

Yeah, we can do that in a week, right, mate?

652

Yeah.

653

I have an issue with unrealistic expectations sometimes.

654

No, it's fine.

655

What I would say is, like, have a plan.

656

You know, you can't do everything.

657

And the thing here is I absolutely love saying yes.

658

It's...

659

And I think most people do.

660

So what you've got to do is go out of all of these things

661

in front of me, and there's, like, a sweet shop, right?

662

You've got a sweet shop of, you know, big cop stuff,

663

big schnitz, whirly snake.

664

Which one of these is going to have the biggest impact

665

versus how much effort we're going to have to put in?

666

It's like the old strategy thing, you know,

667

impact versus effort.

668

And then...

669

And then how much resource effort have I got?

670

Okay, let's say yes to these things.

671

And if I do say yes to something else,

672

what am I now saying no to?

673

Yeah.

674

So I think they're the things that are super hard,

675

but you need to look at the things that will have the

676

impact.

677

And you hope they will have the impact.

678

They might not.

679

That's cool.

680

You learn something.

681

So I would say have a plan.

682

Give yourself a priority.

683

Say no to stuff so that you can say yes and deliver things.

684

And most of all, it's...

685

It's a journey.

686

Yeah.

687

It's a journey.

688

Things are going to happen that were outside of your

689

control.

690

Things are going to change.

691

Your strategy might change in the company.

692

People might change.

693

You might have a restructure.

694

Recognize that.

695

Recognize what's within your control.

696

What's not within your control.

697

And be prepared to pivot.

698

Be prepared to go, right...

699

Okay, we had the plan.

700

The sweet shop's there.

701

I was eating my big Gobstopper, and it was all good.

702

But that's not...

703

That's not going to work now.

704

So, what will work and what's that going to cost?

705

And go background.

706

And my last bit,

707

if I was just looking at what you need to do and what I've

708

learnt is you've got to have some fun.

709

You've got...

710

You can't...

711

It is a serious topic, and I don't want to undermine that.

712

And I don't want to undermine the impact that it has on

713

people.

714

But as professionals working in the space,

715

if you can bring the fun, the interest, the enjoyment,

716

I tell you what, you get far more done.

717

And you're happier.

718

And you stop burnout.

719

And all those other things we talk about in accessibility.

720

So, have fun.

721

Absolutely.

722

And I think, well, too often I think it can feel, I mean,

723

I feel this way and I'm not even, you know,

724

I'm an advocate, I'm not a consultant,

725

I'm not a specialist, you know, delivering things,

726

but I feel sometimes that I'm the harbinger of

727

accessibility.

728

I'm just there to sort of harp on it and be like,

729

why are you not?

730

But then it's like, who's having fun in that conversation?

731

I'm not,

732

I'm just getting annoyed at myself and other things.

733

Don't let frustration creep in, because...

734

Do you know what?

735

I think of it like this.

736

I have a finite amount of energy, or spoons,

737

if we're going to go into spoon theory,

738

which I'm still grappling with, out to JB,

739

who really helped me at Techshare bro grapple with how to

740

manage it.

741

But you have a finite amount of energy.

742

Do I want to spend that time frustrated, angry?

743

You know, do I want to do that?

744

Or do I want to put myself in more of a positive space and

745

come out at the end of the day and think, yeah, that was...

746

That was good.

747

Yeah, definitely.

748

That feeds into that sort of qualifying things that you're

749

going to be doing as well.

750

So setting that plan and going, right,

751

how much can we actually get?

752

Can we achieve what we want to with this?

753

Or should we work on?

754

It's brilliant.

755

Yeah, definitely.

756

So plan it out and have that sort of strategy in place.

757

haven't worked for a rule about planning and in this one,

758

because I can hear them saying to me, plan, Bex.

759

So, I have a thing with the plan.

760

Just people care to rip the plan up.

761

So, not that agility.

762

Have the plan, rip the plan up, re-plan.

763

Don't spend your life planning.

764

But yeah,

765

just that little bit of chaos that the world brings,

766

and don't hold on too tightly to it.

767

Again, if you hold on too tightly,

768

what can happen is you...

769

You can get frustrated and you can kind of move into that

770

cycle.

771

So, I think it's really important to kind of go, it's okay.

772

Okay, what's happened?

773

It was outside of my control.

774

What does that mean?

775

Okay, this is impacted.

776

And then you can look at...

777

Again, go back to where am I going to put my energy?

778

What impact is that going to have?

779

And just be clear with yourself that you cannot do

780

everything.

781

I want to do everything.

782

I cannot do it.

783

I'm telling myself now.

784

You can hear it, can't you?

785

But it's all good stuff,

786

and that intent is obviously there, obviously,

787

to make sure that, you know,

788

you get as much as you can done humanly possible, you know,

789

it's not all human.

790

you care for yourself and...

791

And that...

792

Just also to the point of it is really frustrating at

793

times.

794

Don't walk past it.

795

Don't...

796

I'm not...

797

I just want to say...

798

I'm not saying walk past stuff.

799

I'm not saying accept a lower experience for your customers

800

or your colleagues.

801

I'm not...

802

This is not what I'm saying.

803

I'm saying, you know, keep that bar high,

804

but understand how much you can achieve with the time you

805

have in the day.

806

And make the most of that.

807

And then, you know, look back and go, wow,

808

look at that button.

809

But didn't that

810

I love it because instantly I'm actually trying not to

811

spoil another episode that hasn't actually come out just

812

yet with a UX designer and we were talking about forms and

813

I'm just constantly now thinking and dreaming about forms

814

and the form fields and making sure that they're actually,

815

you know.

816

Yeah.

817

Oh, of course.

818

I mean, banking's forms, right?

819

Like, we do a lot of forms here.

820

I could...

821

That's a whole other episode, frankly, and I'm sure, again,

822

not...

823

I'm probably not the expert.

824

But I...

825

Some people do some amazing work in the UX field,

826

and then in the dev field they have to work together.

827

Yeah, forms, just a huge thing.

828

And again, I'll just go back to you.

829

You can think you've got it right,

830

and then you've followed all of the guidelines,

831

all of the things you know,

832

and you put it in front of someone and suddenly go, wow.

833

We did that actually with the Cora chat box when that was

834

redesigned.

835

We followed all the guidelines, we did all of the testing,

836

then we put it in front of somebody with a screen reader

837

lived experience, all that jazz.

838

And they were like, this is not usable.

839

Oh no.

840

But yeah, and it was like, Oh, wow.

841

Okay.

842

So we need to think about this, this and this.

843

And just, just to see the team go back in and go, right,

844

yeah, we've got this.

845

Okay.

846

That's brilliant.

847

Repop that old plan.

848

Start a new plan.

849

say, break the plan up, start the new plan.

850

It's all about just, I go back to,

851

no one can know everything.

852

No one can have all the answers.

853

And how boring would that be?

854

Like, how boring, that would be, that would be dull, right?

855

I love the fact that, you know, I can speak to, you know,

856

people within that West, outside of that West, customers,

857

more customers who will just tell me brutally of what's not

858

working or what is working every day and I'll learn

859

something new.

860

And then you can go, right, I didn't know that.

861

I should have, but I didn't.

862

Let's go, let's go again.

863

different.

864

gone off tangent now this is fun

865

No, it's good.

866

I enjoy it.

867

I mean,

868

this is a thing it's meant to just be a nice conversation.

869

So it's hopefully that's what it is.

870

Hopefully you're enjoying yourself for having fun.

871

But I so brilliant.

872

So I guess the final question before I sort of flip the

873

script and you know, ask you to ask me some

874

the spot, you go, that's what this time.

875

Yes.

876

So the last one.

877

So it's more around the sort of future.

878

Where's the future?

879

Thanks.

880

Like what's your goals or areas of focus for accessibility

881

in that West?

882

Okay, let's...

883

Again, a small question, right?

884

In that...

885

In that West, let's start here.

886

It's about customers,

887

and it's about embedding into what is going on in this

888

transformation right now.

889

How...

890

How do we make sure that accessibility,

891

how do we make sure disability,

892

assistive technology is in the conversation when, you know,

893

someone brings this new tech in or, you know,

894

someone's developing a new way to experience banking.

895

And I come back to, in this space,

896

we have to have lived experience involved.

897

We have to make sure that that voice is heard.

898

So, that...

899

It starts with customers,

900

it starts with truly understanding what we may don't even

901

know is going to be,

902

or how we bank in the future with what's going on.

903

Like, if I...

904

If I'm just going to take a punt on banking and that West,

905

multimodal experiences.

906

I have been on the record about talking about vocal

907

accessibility in the BSI guidance that came out last year.

908

Gives you, like, 120 odd use cases in this space,

909

just to give them a bit of a shout-out.

910

And gives you some things to think about how you do...

911

Do voice experiences.

912

And the fact it was at Techshare Pro,

913

there were more devices in the world that you can interact

914

with with your voice than there are people.

915

Okay?

916

So, that is...

917

That was from last year.

918

It's not even this year.

919

So, we are at a pace of change.

920

None of us kind of know quite where this is going to go,

921

but it's exciting.

922

And I think it's that part of things.

923

You know, I think, you know,

924

what we're going to see with voice and gestures and

925

screens, are they actually going to be on our phones?

926

Like, where will they be?

927

And that's not just for banking.

928

Like, that's just generally...

929

But if we talk about the impact of the mobile app had on

930

banking,

931

could you imagine now not being able to kind of check your

932

balance and transfer some money to your mate in your pocket

933

there and then?

934

You know, that...

935

That is the...

936

The mobile app has really put that on me.

937

We are seeing a pace of change now that is above that.

938

So, I think we will see it.

939

And there are people that get really into the weeds on this

940

one around, you know,

941

trust and security and data and human in the loop.

942

All of that stuff is just so, so important.

943

And we, as accessibility professionals,

944

have to be at the table and go back to my other, you know,

945

the fact that we have the accessibility cohort,

946

and then it started the conversations about the benefits

947

that there are in this space.

948

What do I think wider?

949

And this will probably give me a bit of a punt if I may.

950

I didn't mention data, but I have to mention data.

951

Data...

952

Oh, gosh.

953

I have to mention data.

954

Okay.

955

The...

956

We have to look at data.

957

We have to make sure that we understand the bias in the

958

data.

959

We have to understand the weaknesses in the data,

960

because it is what's going to drive what comes next.

961

And that's probably the thing.

962

I would do a shout-out to anyone working in banking.

963

We need to do that.

964

There is a great report from the Royal Society about

965

disability technology.

966

It came out last year.

967

There is a whole section on small models and the role of

968

small models versus large models.

969

And if I paraphrase, it's to do with, in a large model,

970

the edge data can be flattened.

971

And so what we need to understand is when we need a small

972

model, when we need a large model,

973

and actually the benefit of the richness involved in coming

974

up with some of our small data bets and how they are used.

975

And that matters in disability.

976

And I probably don't need to tell any odd myths,

977

like why that would matter, but we need...

978

We need to just talk about this a lot more.

979

Data is a...

980

Is a huge thing for me at NatWest and just really having

981

those conversations with, you know,

982

data scientists and all of that jazz.

983

But wider, as the disability access ambassador for banking,

984

if I can do a nod into the kind of...

985

The UK government initiative, you know,

986

I'm sitting alongside other sectors talking about

987

accessibility, talking about disability.

988

I really want to talk about a couple of things here.

989

And really, again, data.

990

I think it's something that we all need to just look at and

991

work together and have those conversations,

992

obviously regulated and all of that.

993

I think it can be done.

994

We know it can be done.

995

The other thing is we've got to showcase stories,

996

we've got to showcase the accessibility features that are

997

out there today.

998

You know,

999

NatWest is not alone in doing accessibility and we've got

Becks Brindley 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,920

other banks in the UK that are also in their space and are

Becks Brindley 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,180

smashing it out and doing really good stuff.

Becks Brindley 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,880

But one of the things that I consistently hear is that our

Becks Brindley 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,000

customers don't know.

Becks Brindley 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,100

They don't know how to use the features.

Becks Brindley 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,740

They're not aware the features exist because we've been,

Becks Brindley 00:45:41,740 --> 00:45:43,860

you know, dropping release after release.

Becks Brindley 00:45:45,340 --> 00:45:46,760

So how do we do that?

Becks Brindley 00:45:46,860 --> 00:45:48,000

I think that awareness...

Becks Brindley 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,280

And it is wider than banking, but, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,020

how do we get that awareness for people that the technology

Becks Brindley 00:45:54,020 --> 00:45:56,040

is there and it can help you?

Becks Brindley 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,140

And then lastly, for me, it's thinking about patterns.

Becks Brindley 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:07,820

So we've got things like authentication and I am a huge fan

Becks Brindley 00:46:07,820 --> 00:46:08,680

of authentication.

Becks Brindley 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:15,640

I'm a huge fan of digital, but we have to help...

Becks Brindley 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:16,780

We have to protect our customers.

Becks Brindley 00:46:16,940 --> 00:46:18,700

We have to protect people from scams.

Becks Brindley 00:46:19,980 --> 00:46:23,980

And proving you are you and proving that we are we as a

Becks Brindley 00:46:23,980 --> 00:46:28,340

company or a company is who they are is really important.

Becks Brindley 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,160

And the more we...

Becks Brindley 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,400

The more protection we can get in,

Becks Brindley 00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:35,760

the more we can work together over things like

Becks Brindley 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,220

authentication in that kind of idea of a universal

Becks Brindley 00:46:40,220 --> 00:46:41,020

pattern.

Becks Brindley 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,700

Because if you can get things a bit more consistent,

Becks Brindley 00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:47,420

if we know what works and we can take that cognitive

Becks Brindley 00:46:47,420 --> 00:46:48,000

load...

Becks Brindley 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:48,140

You know,

Becks Brindley 00:46:48,140 --> 00:46:50,400

that load on your brain when you're trying to figure out,

Becks Brindley 00:46:50,740 --> 00:46:51,780

how do I do this?

Becks Brindley 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,100

It's another interface.

Becks Brindley 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,880

And all I want to do is tell you that I am me.

Becks Brindley 00:46:57,860 --> 00:46:59,340

And that is your...

Becks Brindley 00:46:59,340 --> 00:47:00,600

You're written to banking.

Becks Brindley 00:47:00,980 --> 00:47:01,360

It's...

Becks Brindley 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:02,740

You're written to lots of other stuff as well.

Becks Brindley 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,040

But, you know, if you can't do that,

Becks Brindley 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:07,920

then it's the real challenge.

Becks Brindley 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:14,060

So they're the things that I care about and I obsessively

Becks Brindley 00:47:14,060 --> 00:47:16,100

talk about to anyone that will listen.

joe.james 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,940

Yeah and all the listeners are still here and they all will

joe.james 00:47:21,940 --> 00:47:24,000

be because we are having a lot of fun.

joe.james 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,180

We'll agree and I think that it's like making access

joe.james 00:47:29,180 --> 00:47:29,920

accessible.

Becks Brindley 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,400

I think, whoa, from Techshare, wasn't it?

Becks Brindley 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:36,320

Wow.

Becks Brindley 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,800

It was like, yeah, we need to make accessibility access.

Becks Brindley 00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:46,440

It is, and I think it's something that we do.

Becks Brindley 00:47:46,740 --> 00:47:49,740

I'm a fan of doing it as a community, doing it together,

Becks Brindley 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:51,060

working together.

Becks Brindley 00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:53,560

I think that, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:56,280

there is a time and a place where we compete,

Becks Brindley 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:57,500

and absolutely.

Becks Brindley 00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:02,480

And I think there's the space where we can, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:06,800

make sure that that bar is always rising, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,280

the tide is always rising.

Becks Brindley 00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:12,780

All of that stuff, I think that's a big, big thing.

Becks Brindley 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,460

And it's changing so fast right now.

Becks Brindley 00:48:16,860 --> 00:48:17,300

Definitely.

Becks Brindley 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,760

We have to stick, we have to stick together.

joe.james 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,340

Yeah, they're very true.

joe.james 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,860

And that's the thing is, that is an interesting one.

joe.james 00:48:23,940 --> 00:48:26,040

I won't go too deep into it.

joe.james 00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:27,860

But with the banking sector, in particular,

joe.james 00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:29,240

being so competitive, I mean,

joe.james 00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:31,680

all industries very competitive with one another,

joe.james 00:48:32,140 --> 00:48:33,740

you have to have that competitive edge.

joe.james 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:35,900

But when it comes to things like accessibility,

joe.james 00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:39,900

it's such a collaborative and sharing space within tech in

joe.james 00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:43,900

particular as well, that it's quite hard to sort of not,

joe.james 00:48:44,820 --> 00:48:45,000

you know,

joe.james 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,640

because there will be restrictions on you what you can

joe.james 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,980

discuss what you what you're working on what's coming up,

joe.james 00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:52,880

but then you kind of want to sort of bring people up with

joe.james 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,960

you in the same same sort of industry.

joe.james 00:48:55,780 --> 00:48:55,820

But

Becks Brindley 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,220

I always find it really hard because things like, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,320

what are you most proud of and most proud what's about to

Becks Brindley 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:02,800

come out?

joe.james 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:04,240

Yeah.

Becks Brindley 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,040

Because that's the stuff we've all been thinking about and

Becks Brindley 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,060

putting the effort into.

Becks Brindley 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,060

But, yeah, I...

Becks Brindley 00:49:12,060 --> 00:49:12,540

Do you know what?

Becks Brindley 00:49:12,660 --> 00:49:14,500

I think it's...

Becks Brindley 00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:15,120

It's a...

Becks Brindley 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,180

It's a thing we have to work together on and there are ways

Becks Brindley 00:49:19,180 --> 00:49:19,900

to do it.

Becks Brindley 00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:22,820

And there's some great organisations out there that you

Becks Brindley 00:49:22,820 --> 00:49:23,320

can...

Becks Brindley 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,000

You can kind of work with that...

Becks Brindley 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:27,700

That kind of give you that...

Becks Brindley 00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:31,520

That chat and house rule space, that non-competitive space.

Becks Brindley 00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:36,300

And you can have those conversations within the bounds of

Becks Brindley 00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:36,840

the regulation.

Becks Brindley 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:37,740

It...

Becks Brindley 00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:42,880

You know, it's done and I'm really thankful for that.

Becks Brindley 00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:46,020

And then you can go away and you can have kind of secret

Becks Brindley 00:49:46,020 --> 00:49:48,040

squirrel conversations and be like, right,

Becks Brindley 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:49,640

we're going to smash this one out.

Becks Brindley 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,660

And just to put it out there, when anyone actually...

Becks Brindley 00:49:54,660 --> 00:49:56,600

But when competitors put stuff...

Becks Brindley 00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,180

I am secretly celebrating.

Becks Brindley 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,380

Hopefully not so secretly now, everyone knows.

Becks Brindley 00:50:03,660 --> 00:50:06,200

Gosh, but I think...

Becks Brindley 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,000

I think we celebrate because it's progress.

joe.james 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:09,380

Yeah.

joe.james 00:50:09,780 --> 00:50:12,080

And it also probably give credence to things that maybe

joe.james 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:13,560

you've been fighting for,

joe.james 00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:15,460

but hasn't been signed off potentially.

joe.james 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:16,100

I mean,

joe.james 00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:20,140

I'm not going to speak to what level of buy-in and things,

joe.james 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,620

but I'm sure that happens at certain companies, you know,

joe.james 00:50:24,660 --> 00:50:25,300

across the board.

Becks Brindley 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,240

you know, I really like the way, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:32,220

you hear sort of your, your Microsoft review, your Google,

Becks Brindley 00:50:32,420 --> 00:50:33,540

your Apple talk about it.

Becks Brindley 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,440

You know, it's really similar, right?

Becks Brindley 00:50:35,460 --> 00:50:37,060

They talk about it in the same way, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:50:37,060 --> 00:50:40,420

they have this space they compete absolutely with,

Becks Brindley 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,800

and then they have the space where they're like, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:44,720

we'll do this together.

Becks Brindley 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:46,800

The no voice thing,

Becks Brindley 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,660

the university work going on around that is just a prime

Becks Brindley 00:50:50,660 --> 00:50:55,100

example of kind of the research into kind of a typical

Becks Brindley 00:50:55,100 --> 00:50:57,800

voice and all of that to help solve that challenge.

Becks Brindley 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:02,720

And and I think those examples of the things that, oh,

Becks Brindley 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,420

you know, you can find them, they are there.

Becks Brindley 00:51:05,780 --> 00:51:07,780

And then you can go away and you can be super competitive.

joe.james 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:09,980

Yeah, definitely.

joe.james 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:10,800

Amazing.

joe.james 00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:11,240

Right.

joe.james 00:51:11,740 --> 00:51:14,880

So bringing us on to the new segment,

joe.james 00:51:16,540 --> 00:51:19,340

where in the intro I mentioned is slightly different today.

joe.james 00:51:19,820 --> 00:51:22,780

So I guess, Bex, over to you.

joe.james 00:51:23,240 --> 00:51:24,460

I've got all the power now.

Becks Brindley 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:25,480

you do.

Becks Brindley 00:51:27,060 --> 00:51:27,660

So,

Becks Brindley 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:33,360

it probably comes as no surprise that I really am interested

Becks Brindley 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:34,220

in people's journey.

Becks Brindley 00:51:34,460 --> 00:51:38,480

So, tell me about how you ended up here on this podcast.

Becks Brindley 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:38,800

No,

Becks Brindley 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:43,420

but just generally here in accessibility and kind of what

Becks Brindley 00:51:43,420 --> 00:51:43,780

happened?

Becks Brindley 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,660

What was that journey like?

joe.james 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:46,300

Yeah.

joe.james 00:51:48,340 --> 00:51:50,120

So this week, at the end of this week,

joe.james 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,080

I would have been with PCR Digital for nine years,

joe.james 00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:56,060

which is quite a big commitment.

joe.james 00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,040

I think quite rare in the recruitment world,

joe.james 00:51:58,240 --> 00:51:59,720

a lot of jumping around happens,

joe.james 00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,560

but that a lot of that comes down to our management

joe.james 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:03,380

director, Jane.

joe.james 00:52:05,180 --> 00:52:08,440

So 14 years ago, so before I even joined PCR,

joe.james 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,860

one of her big tech clients asked her to source front-end

joe.james 00:52:12,860 --> 00:52:15,760

developers that had accessibility skills,

joe.james 00:52:15,940 --> 00:52:17,560

and I think it was JAWS in particular.

joe.james 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,740

And at the time, really niche, especially to Jane,

joe.james 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:22,700

she hadn't heard of it.

joe.james 00:52:23,140 --> 00:52:24,920

She was like, what's this JAWS thing?

joe.james 00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:27,020

And she...

Becks Brindley 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:28,400

We're going to get out of the eating.

Becks Brindley 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,960

You can get kind of the shark babies in it.

joe.james 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,860

I have asked her because I think initially when she told me

joe.james 00:52:34,860 --> 00:52:36,740

about it, I was like, oh, I did.

Becks Brindley 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,280

watching movies and things.

joe.james 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:41,440

Definitely.

joe.james 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,440

Well, maybe that should be a new, what do you call it?

joe.james 00:52:46,020 --> 00:52:48,220

Instead of a panda, maybe I'll have a great watch.

Becks Brindley 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,380

Maybe it's like assisted tech or movie.

Becks Brindley 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,080

I don't know.

Becks Brindley 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:54,240

Maybe I only watched that one.

joe.james 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,120

That's true, yeah.

joe.james 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:01,200

I was trying to really rapidly think of an anagram for nw,

joe.james 00:53:04,020 --> 00:53:08,900

but yeah so after you know some time of working on those

joe.james 00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:10,780

roles she actually ended up starting,

joe.james 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,340

realized that we needed to broaden as a company,

joe.james 00:53:13,620 --> 00:53:14,480

broaden the network.

joe.james 00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:17,120

We weren't really getting too many applicants that were

joe.james 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,320

relevant, had the accessibility staff,

joe.james 00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:22,080

it was purely front-end engineers that hadn't even heard

joe.james 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:22,720

about it.

joe.james 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,600

So she started the London Accessibility Meetup which became

joe.james 00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:28,680

massive,

joe.james 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,840

I think it was now like three to five thousand people

joe.james 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:33,780

subscribed to that meetup group.

joe.james 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,280

We ran it for a few years and then unfortunately it just

joe.james 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:40,240

grew beyond our means.

joe.james 00:53:40,460 --> 00:53:42,560

We weren't able to sort of really sponsor it ourselves,

joe.james 00:53:42,660 --> 00:53:45,460

couldn't get the funding and took an awful lot of time away

joe.james 00:53:45,460 --> 00:53:48,580

from the level of service we want to give to our clients.

joe.james 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,100

So that was taken over.

joe.james 00:53:52,180 --> 00:53:55,340

I think it's now hopefully going to be rejuvenated,

joe.james 00:53:55,380 --> 00:53:56,060

brought back.

joe.james 00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,440

I think it's had a few years off since sort of COVID or the

joe.james 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:00,300

pandemic times,

joe.james 00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:04,160

but yeah hopefully we'll hear more about that.

Becks Brindley 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,360

update on this dude, right?

joe.james 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:07,520

Hopefully, yeah, we'll see.

joe.james 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:07,900

I mean.

Becks Brindley 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:08,380

to see.

Becks Brindley 00:54:08,620 --> 00:54:10,620

We need to do it together, so here for yourself.

joe.james 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:12,600

Yeah, definitely.

joe.james 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:13,240

And that's the thing.

joe.james 00:54:13,420 --> 00:54:15,520

So I mean, my journey, so that's more about Jane,

joe.james 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:20,220

but then when I joined as operations manager,

joe.james 00:54:20,220 --> 00:54:23,680

then went into some consulting stuff because I thought,

joe.james 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:24,240

why not?

joe.james 00:54:25,140 --> 00:54:29,040

I was mostly focusing on a mixture of things,

joe.james 00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:29,460

to be honest.

joe.james 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,720

There's not many roles in tech I haven't hired for,

joe.james 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,340

but a lot of it was front-end development and JavaScript.

joe.james 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:40,320

And then when Jane took over the MD position, she was like,

joe.james 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,420

you're doing great in this area and accessibility and this

joe.james 00:54:44,420 --> 00:54:45,900

client in particular was like her baby.

joe.james 00:54:46,220 --> 00:54:47,400

So she was like,

joe.james 00:54:47,420 --> 00:54:49,580

I'm going to pass this over to you and see how you do.

joe.james 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,000

And the more I read up on the roles,

joe.james 00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:54,620

I really like to research each role I work on.

joe.james 00:54:54,820 --> 00:54:55,440

So I was, you know,

joe.james 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,160

the discussions I was having and learning more and more

joe.james 00:54:59,160 --> 00:54:59,680

about it.

joe.james 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,180

I just thought, I can't stop.

joe.james 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,740

Like you said, once you've seen it, you can't unsee it.

joe.james 00:55:03,900 --> 00:55:06,560

I always have captions on whenever I'm watching TV.

joe.james 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,660

It just helps me sort of really take the information in.

joe.james 00:55:09,660 --> 00:55:12,420

And when they weren't available, I was like,

joe.james 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:13,400

what's happening?

joe.james 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,380

You know, small things like that, I say small, but for me,

joe.james 00:55:17,420 --> 00:55:19,600

it was like a small frustration.

joe.james 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,840

But I was like, well, why aren't they there?

joe.james 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,160

Why aren't they accurate or readable?

Becks Brindley 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,480

It's a small stuff sometimes, but it has big, you know,

Becks Brindley 00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:31,420

it has big impact.

Becks Brindley 00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:33,260

I have a bit of a question just before you go on,

Becks Brindley 00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:36,800

what's been like the weirdest kind of role you've had to

Becks Brindley 00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:37,380

recruit for?

joe.james 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:44,020

Oh god, that's really interesting actually.

joe.james 00:55:45,940 --> 00:55:49,840

I will say that it felt weird because I actually recruited

joe.james 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,660

my sister into a job.

joe.james 00:55:53,020 --> 00:55:53,840

So she was,

joe.james 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:59,860

she still is a software tester and mostly manual testing,

joe.james 00:56:00,220 --> 00:56:05,440

so UAT and situational testing for internal systems.

joe.james 00:56:05,660 --> 00:56:08,460

It's a lot of sort of the M365 stuff now.

joe.james 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,160

But at the time it was mobile,

joe.james 00:56:12,900 --> 00:56:18,220

like an iOS app for one of our broadcast clients and it

joe.james 00:56:18,220 --> 00:56:20,140

just, I was like, hmm, I'll try.

joe.james 00:56:20,340 --> 00:56:22,940

And it was this discussion with Lizzie, my sister,

joe.james 00:56:22,940 --> 00:56:24,620

and then the client and they were like,

joe.james 00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:25,720

you've got the same surname.

joe.james 00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:28,380

And I said it, yeah,

Becks Brindley 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:29,420

Similar?

Becks Brindley 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:30,180

Yeah.

joe.james 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,280

Well, you always get that as well.

joe.james 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,460

I said from the beginning, full transparency.

joe.james 00:56:35,860 --> 00:56:36,400

This is, you know,

joe.james 00:56:36,460 --> 00:56:38,920

I thought my sister would be great for this job and she

joe.james 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:39,760

interviewed and got it.

joe.james 00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:45,100

And it was a strange it was it was it was a risk because I

joe.james 00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:45,860

felt really weird.

joe.james 00:56:45,940 --> 00:56:46,200

I was like,

joe.james 00:56:46,220 --> 00:56:48,460

I don't want to put her forward if she's not quite right,

joe.james 00:56:48,460 --> 00:56:51,660

because then it would look bad on me to my client and then

joe.james 00:56:51,660 --> 00:56:55,080

she'll be disappointed that I've wasted her time or not

joe.james 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,080

been able to secure a role.

joe.james 00:56:56,340 --> 00:56:57,400

So that was quite weird.

joe.james 00:56:57,740 --> 00:56:58,720

That was that was an odd one.

joe.james 00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:03,800

And I have also done a bit of rec to rec.

joe.james 00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,000

So a recruitment consultant for a company that is a client.

joe.james 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:08,600

And I was like,

joe.james 00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,440

why am I hiring you to replace our services as an as a

joe.james 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:13,040

supplier?

joe.james 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,520

So that was that was an odd one.

joe.james 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:18,400

Yeah.

joe.james 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:22,260

But yeah,

joe.james 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,860

so I guess I just went down that rabbit hole a bit.

joe.james 00:57:24,860 --> 00:57:27,480

And I've just grown into that community,

joe.james 00:57:27,740 --> 00:57:32,760

felt very welcomed in and joined a few of the networks like

joe.james 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,360

the Champions of Accessibility Network can.

joe.james 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,000

And yeah,

joe.james 00:57:38,260 --> 00:57:41,340

I just I thought rather than try and do a whole meetup

joe.james 00:57:41,340 --> 00:57:41,600

group,

joe.james 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,520

because we will probably face that barrier again in the

joe.james 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:48,720

future with the funding and the time and the effort or even

joe.james 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,740

a space with mostly remote as a company.

joe.james 00:57:50,740 --> 00:57:54,840

So we don't really have a cemented place to do a meetup.

joe.james 00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:00,180

So I thought everything's online is post pandemic start a

joe.james 00:58:00,180 --> 00:58:02,040

podcast and having these great conversations.

joe.james 00:58:02,060 --> 00:58:04,960

Let's record them and get these people's voices out there.

joe.james 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:06,000

So that's great.

joe.james 00:58:06,060 --> 00:58:06,380

Yeah.

Becks Brindley 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:07,420

I love that.

Becks Brindley 00:58:07,780 --> 00:58:08,300

I love that.

Becks Brindley 00:58:08,460 --> 00:58:09,220

That's just...

Becks Brindley 00:58:09,220 --> 00:58:09,920

That's just fantastic.

Becks Brindley 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,500

So, I...

Becks Brindley 00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:14,920

You gave me two questions I'm going to ask three.

Becks Brindley 00:58:15,500 --> 00:58:16,040

Yes, boy.

Becks Brindley 00:58:17,580 --> 00:58:18,140

How...?

Becks Brindley 00:58:18,140 --> 00:58:23,360

So, this one is, you know, you speak, as you just said,

Becks Brindley 00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:24,920

to all these amazing people.

Becks Brindley 00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:26,980

You have all these brilliant conversations.

Becks Brindley 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,900

And they're enlightening.

Becks Brindley 00:58:32,020 --> 00:58:33,380

You know, I'm a fan.

Becks Brindley 00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:33,880

I'm a listener.

Becks Brindley 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:39,040

So, what has surprised you the most in those conversations,