Race in Therapy with Kimberly-Anne Evans

Hello and welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. Today I'm really excited to be joined by Kimberley-Anne Evans from Kaemotherapy. Kimberley is a psychotherapist, public speaker, coach, and founder of Kaemotherapy, which specialises in helping mental health professionals in private practice, organisations and educational settings to develop practical skills to work with a racially diverse range of clients and grow their businesses.

Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of Psychology

Links & References:

Start & Grow: The Complete Course for Psychologists and Therapists - Psychology Business School

Links for Kim:

Website: www.kaemotherapy.com

Email: admin@kaemotherapy.com

Instagram: @Kaemotherapy

LinkedIn: Kimberly-Anne Evans

Rosie on Instagram:

@rosiegilderthorp

@thepregnancypsychologist

The highlights

• Kim tells us who she is and what she does through Kaemotherapy 00:25
• Kim talks about the drivers behind the racial inequality that we're still seeing in mental health and mental health care in this country 02:10
• We discuss the Race Workshops that Kaemotherapy run 08:31
• I ask Kim for her perspective on initiatives that are put in place to try and better serve users of colour and to bring more diversity into the staff teams 12:07
• Kim talks about what catalysed her to start doing something herself, with Kaemotherapy 18:42
• Kim tells us why, as a clinician, she wasn’t always confident to bring race into the room with her clients 21:54
• I ask Kim if she always had a bit of an entrepreneurial activist spirit 26:42
• Kim talks about her plans for Kaemotherapy 29:15
• Kim tells us how we can get support from her if we want to bring race into therapy more 34:57

Thank you so much for listening to the Business of Psychology podcast. I'd really appreciate it if you could take the time to subscribe, rate and review the show. It helps more mental health professionals just like you to find us, and it also means a lot to me personally when I read the reviews. Thank you in advance and we'll see you next week for another episode of practical strategy and inspiration to move your independent practice forward.

Mentioned in this episode:

Start and Grow

Before you go, did you know that I have a course for professionals just like you who are starting out in independent practice? In fact, my Start and Grow course has already supported hundreds of psychologists and therapists to build impactful, financially rewarding, and professionally fulfilling practices. When you sign up to the course, you get clear step-by-step support to build a practice that supports your values and rewards your hard work through our comprehensive online learning modules. You get peace of mind, thanks to our complete suite of legal documents from Clare Veal at Aubergine Legal, you get 12 months of membership to our supportive student community, access to our private students' podcast, so you can learn in your own time and in your own way. You, yes, I see you learning while you're doing the washing up! And you get access to regular group coaching sessions with me and the rest of our lovely students. If that sounds like exactly what you need to get out of private practice paralysis, then sign up today at https://psychologybusinessschool.com/psychology-business-school/

TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Kimberly-Anne Evans

Hello and welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. Today I'm really excited to be joined by Kimberley-Anne Evans from Kaemotherapy. So Kimberley is a psychotherapist, a public speaker and coach and she's founder of Kaemotherapy. So without me sort of spending too long introducing you Kim, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do through Kaemotherapy?

Hi. So I do training and consultancy and I work with a team to do that. So effectively it's doing workshops and supervision for well-being practitioners and specifically therapists. That's where we kind of started because that is, you know, my background in terms of the therapeutic world. So yeah, we do that with different mental health organisations, some corporate organisations as well. Just to look at the link between racism, discrimination and also mental health. So we're really there to support the experiences of racialized clients and to help, you know, clinicians feel more confident in the area of race and culture. So, yeah, that's what I do alongside my clinical work. I've got a small private practice. And so, yeah, I'm kind of doing, you know, the work alongside the training as well. I think it's really important to keep that live really, you know, when you're drawing upon examples it's good to keep that going too. And I love seeing my clients as well. So, yeah, that's what I do.

So there's a lot that I want to ask you today, a lot about how you took that idea and that passion and turned it into the business that you have now. But I think before we dive into all that kind of businessy and practical stuff, it doesn't really make sense to talk about what you're doing with Kaemotherapy without talking about the state of racial inequality we have in mental health in this country at the moment. So could you just say a little bit about, you know, what is, what are the drivers behind that racial inequality that we're still seeing in, in mental health and mental health care in this country?

Well, I think it's, you know, maybe the foundation of, you know, Britishness to some extent in terms of looking at our colonial past and just ideas that we have around, for example, blackness or otherness, or what it means to be foreign. And that kind of feels like a foundational thing, if that makes sense in terms of thinking about national identity and that separating out of different people, when really, you know, the UK is quite a multicultural place. But still, I think there are struggles, of more late perhaps, having that united feeling and then therefore because there was that division, then therefore, you know, there's racial biases, there's prejudice, people are looking at what divides rather than unites, if that makes sense. But yeah, I'd say it's historically and socio-economically embedded because racial hierarchies exist to prop up capitalism, do you know what I mean? You need capitalism to be able to yeah, to have the kind of economic place that we have. So it really is about having a hierarchy. And so, you know, having race and racism makes sense to make that happen. So even though it's not as overt as maybe you might think about in America, we're more subtle over here, I think. So it's embedded in systems and institutions. And like you rightly said, more specifically thinking about health. Because there's certain prejudices, it means that there's assumptions around, say, for example, a Black person can maintain more pain than other racial groups. So then if you've got that outlook, how might your treatment be different then? Do you know what I mean? It's those kind of things, and even in an emotional sense, that they're able to be more resilient and more robust, therefore, I might not need to care for them in the same way. So there's loads of different thoughts and harmful stereotypes that impact the way practitioners interact and support people from racialized backgrounds. And I guess that's the ripple effect from history and, you know, the systems that we live in. And then the day to day interactions, that means the statistics shows, you know, Black people are five times more likely to get you know, like incarcerated, or what's the word?

Sectioned?

Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Under the Mental Health Act. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, the statistics show, it clearly highlights that there is stark differences, and that's why it's so important, d’you know what I mean? And yeah, it's been like that for a long time and hasn't changed much at all.

Yeah. So those kind of unconscious biases impacting the assumptions that people make about the clients that are presenting to them in front of them. I guess there's two other things that I wonder about, and one of those is about the clients that come to services in the first place. Do you think that there's some kind of systems in place that make it more difficult for people of colour and from certain backgrounds to come to certain services?

Yeah, definitely. I think, say for example, if someone's first language isn't English, you know, sometimes there's not the option or the, you know, variety of languages to use.

Or the most awful telephone translation services, which are an embarrassment to us all.

Yeah, no definitely. And I guess in terms of certain perspectives when it comes to even if they've got like a chaperone or someone to you know, translate for them, sometimes that's not often welcomed within certain services and things like that. So I think it's just kind of the like monocultural perspective of how therapy should look, means that we're perhaps not open to different ways of working to make things easier for people from different nationalities or different backgrounds or cultures and things like that. So kind of just thinking outside of the box, do you know what I mean? That's not always there. And then like you said, the assumptions that are there and that can be a block, maybe unsaid sometimes in terms of the ways in which people might be open to help people from different backgrounds as well.

That makes a lot of sense. I also wonder about the makeup of clinicians and services themselves. And obviously, I know you've got a lot of personal experience of this. I mean, how, how relevant is that?

I think it's really relevant. I mean, from looking at the curriculum and it being a lot of white voices that are utilised in terms of the foundations of theory to, like you said, within mental health services, if we're looking even at like management level or influence level that might, you know govern the running of the systems or certain changes that might be helpful to people of colour, you know, clinicians of colour aren't there at that level. They might be some of the staff, for example, but in terms of the influencers. And then some places just don't have a lot of Black or Asian members of staff, if that makes sense. So the variety is not there to help and support people of colour. Something that came up from my research is that actually a lot of people of colour find it helpful to be with another practitioner of colour because it's almost like there's a cultural primer there sometimes that they don't have to explain certain things and there's just that level of understanding when it comes to racial experiences. You know so, you know, not having that option can be really difficult because you're just having your fingers crossed that, you know, that white practitioner or white therapist will be able to have an open heart and be understanding and be able to hear you and, and be comfortable talking about race, which is often not the case. So, yeah, it's tricky.

And it's such a crucial point because I think we're… definitely in my world, we've become a lot more aware over the last few years of the fact that most of us, as white therapists, are not comfortable talking about it. You know, maybe we previously thought we were. Hopefully, having explored a bit more and done a bit more work in this area, it's actually really obvious that, you know, most of us, do you have an element of that white fragility and find it really challenging to talk about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, definitely. And you know, you've gone on my training before with your members as well. And so I'm imagining there was something in you that said, actually, I need to know more because what I've had before just isn't enough. And actually, I could be more comfortable in this area or just admitting that, like you said, it is still quite uncomfortable. So that is like one of the things that we say all the time in like our marketing when I'm having conversations with people because it is about trying to be more comfortable. The whole point of like, you know, that divisive ethos to separate us, is if you make it as uncomfortable as possible, you're never going to bridge that gap are you? Like if I'm scared to talk to you, you're scared to talk to me, or race, I don't know, I feel like you're walking on eggshells sort of thing, then that means we'll never come together and actually get to know who each other are as individuals or within different cultural groups. So yeah, like when I'm doing the training, it really is about having a safe space for people to challenge their biases, have those uncomfortable questions, get to know, and, and really even practise some of the things that they might want to say with their client in a space that feels like they can make the mistakes and give them confidence to do that moving forward and have those conversations because it's so important.

Yeah, and I've got to say, it really is the best training that I've done.

Aww, that's amazing!

Yeah, you 100 percent can tick that box because Ruth, the facilitator, was so compassionate and patient and thoughtful that I think everyone in the group, certainly myself, but I think I speak for everybody there, did feel it was that safe space to have an open conversation, which, that's really challenging for everybody. I mean, holding that space, that really speaks to Ruth's skill and also the kind of values that you've infused into your organisation. And it's not there everywhere because it is so difficult to achieve.

Yeah, no, definitely. Definitely. And I think part of that is, you know, us as the team doing our own work within our own personal journey, because it's not always easy to sit with, but also kind of, yeah, like you said, those values, those approach about having the safety and having a space where people can grow and learn. And, you know, we all have personal responsibility, but we're all very aware of the society which we're in and the roots of racism and that we are all racist to some extent, whether it's internalised racism or to a different group, because that is how we, we've been fed this. Like, do you know what I mean? So it's just like, no one's exempt, but it's really just kind of, you know, helping people to confront those things, I guess with, with that openness and let them know it's okay. I would way more prefer to have these real conversations than us just pretend that we are all perfect human beings. It just doesn't work like that. It's better that we just own stuff and try and move forward. Do you know what I mean? So.

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that kind of pretending that it doesn't exist thing was the 90s. That feels like my primary school education, to be honest.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, for some people that's closer than the 90s, do you know what I mean? It might be like pre George Floyd where they thought having a race neutral perspective or colour blindness was the right approach. Do you know what I mean? And I think people are now coming to realise or actually know that that's not helpful at all, perhaps I need to invite race and culture into the space and work on how I can be able to sit with this.

So I have been aware over my time in the NHS and the prison service of initiatives that were put in place to try and better serve service users of colour and also to bring more diversity into the staff teams. I'm not sure that those are particularly successful. What's your perspective on those initiatives and kind of why they might not always achieve what they're setting out to achieve?

I think there's a couple of issues. I think sometimes you know, like previously, the term BAME was used often, so that's Black, Asian, and Minority Ethnic Groups, and I think some of the issues with that is that it was very, like, homogenous in a way, like, or it's like grouping loads of different people together, and so therefore, If they put statistics out about progress within the BAME group, that could be maybe a small percentage within, and you're not really getting a true representation of progress or, or, you know, how things could be in particular outcomes. So I think really looking at individual things, but also anti-blackness as well, because that translates into different cultures, but also what we're aware of is that black individuals, and especially those with darker hues, within systems, do benefit the least or have the worst deal, if that makes sense. So it's kind of looking at those nuances, which perhaps they didn't, but it was more of a tick box exercise. Because you're like, ‘Hey, look, we're employing all these people from abroad or from different cultures’. That's fine, but how are they getting treated in work? And are they able to get to management level, for example? Do you know what I mean? And like, how would the outcome shift in, in terms of mental health users or the, you know, the prison inmates and things like that? So I think it really is just thinking, you know, was that to tick a box so that people could maybe feel comfortable and be like, I'll be silent, so you can be quiet now because we've done X, Y, Z. Or was that real change and perhaps it wasn't. And that's something we definitely try to do because part of the work we do is not just the training and giving you racial literacy and information, it's giving you space to self-reflect and having a sense of your own racial and ethnic identity. Because we are all racial beings to some extent, I know whiteness is often put aside from race, but it's important for even white individuals to think about Where are they from? How do they self identify? So that they can then start to empathise with their clients and look at those things that perhaps are barriers. So yeah, I think that internal work, if that makes sense, not just certain changes or tick boxes, but individuals within systems to, to shift as well.

Makes a lot of sense, because of course, if you don't do the internal work first, and you're the person designing the initiative, or, you know, leading a group of people designing the initiative, then you're maybe not going to see some of those nuanced points. And also I wonder if maybe sometimes you might see them but not know how or if it's okay to address them.

Yeah yeah yeah, definitely. And it's like it just makes me think like that is why we need more diversity at high levels because it's like if you think you have been you know, moulded to be blinded to certain things. It's going to be really hard. It's almost to some extent impossible. Like, do you know what I mean? And why take that responsibility on fully? Just have more people from different backgrounds that can shed a light more easily, if that makes sense. And if they're in that space, give them space to be heard and not just to say, but to put those things into action as well. Do you know what I mean? I think that's really important. Because yeah, there's only so much you can know if you're not within a certain culture, or, or not connected to that background and things like that, or that lived experience.

It reminds me though, I think if people sort of higher up, people of influence in the system, maybe haven't done very much of that kind of internal reflection, often the initiatives that get suggested by the people with lived experience can be heard as threatening. So an example of this from my early career, I won't say the service or anything, was that there was a group of service users, we did a lot of service users consultation when we were designing services, it was a real strength. But one of the things that came out was that they wanted a mother's group, but only to be for mothers from this particular ethnic group, because they had particular concerns and didn't feel understood by people from other communities, and that was experienced by probably half the staff group as really threatening. It did happen actually, but a lot of people were very uncomfortable with it. And that was a very unusual service in that the representation in the staff of that community was quite strong. So it just kind of tipped it into going ahead. I’d be really interested to know if it’s still going ahead. But it kind of did happen, but with a loss of resistance and a lot of people being ‘I’m nor really sure we should be allowing that, is that helpful?’

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, definitely. It's tough. And imagine if they weren't like just over 50 percent or exactly that tipping point.

Exactly. Which you're not normally, it's a really unusual service.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And yeah, no, I think that's really true. There is that fear, that fear of threat, those kinds of things that can happen, like, you know, within white fragility that you talked about, but then different things, I guess, because some people don't want to challenge certain systems or they're afraid of, okay, what does this mean then if they're coming together but not thinking about the actual benefits for that group, you know, to have their voice heard and to feel like they can speak out and be heard because, you know, black and brown only spaces are really powerful for some individuals, just to know that they can you know, relax and be themselves and connect with people that can understand some of the issues that they faced. So yeah, I'm glad that happened, but I think that does echo, you know, what happens in a lot of different services and businesses as well.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, it brings me on quite nicely to thinking about what Kaemotherapy is here to do and, and what, what is it that kind of catalysed you to start doing something yourself?

Yeah, I mean, I've always loved training, and I think it's been quite a natural kind of gift of mine to be able to teach and take quite complex things and simplify it so people can understand. But I think also, in connection to what you were sharing, I've had similar experiences within institutions where I've tried to make positive change around, you know, people of colour or some of my colleagues and that has been faced with you know, resistance. So, for example, quite similarly to what you've mentioned, I started a BAME group back at one of my placements and that some of the white therapists there went to the director and were like, I don't want this to happen because we've been excluded, like why should this group be made? But it was literally for, you know, practitioners of colour to have a kind of peer supervision group, and then yeah, the fliers were taken down, we're allowed to do it but it almost felt like this, like, you know, taboo, secret thing that, you know, you can do in the corner but no one knows kind of thing. So, it wasn't very nice vibes and I felt quite angry to be honest because these were people that could be my supervision group who I'm even having lunch with, but I've got no idea who's kind of had this, this these ideas and not come to me personally as well because they're aware that it was me running it. So it was just kind of things like that, you know, and even in my supervision group, feeling like I couldn't talk about race or even the fact that I was part, from a different part of the UK. Cause I think sometimes we talk about race and culture and we just think about the colour of our skin, but it could just be, you know, you're a city girl and you're now in the country. And that's something I experienced and that cultural shift. And how do we help someone acclimatise? How do we help someone feel at ease? What can make them feel like they belong? And those kinds of themes, you know. I didn't have anyone to help welcome me or talk about those things and, and stuff like that. So because I had those personal experiences, it's like, I was thinking, wow, if these people are seeing people like me or other racialized individuals, like how are they going to survive in therapy? Like it, yeah, it was mind blowing and really saddening. So I was just thinking I need to do something about it.

My research that I did was centred around colour blindness and looking at the experiences of black clients with white therapists. And, you know, if they'd not had the conversation about race, how that impacted their therapeutic journey. And a lot of the feedback was just that they didn't feel like they could bring themselves fully if race was ignored or not talked about or the therapist presented a race neutral perspective. So that was really eye opening for me, just to know that I wasn't the only person having those experiences and it feeling like a real barrier to progress and mental health wellness. So, yeah.

I'm wondering, kind of, as a clinician, were you always confident to bring race into the room with your clients?

No, definitely not. And it's a good question, like, I've never been asked this, but, you know, I try and stay as reflexive as possible because we, even within, because I'm so aware of internal racism as well, like, I have to think about my, my prejudice towards other racial groups, or even within my own race, like a Black person, like ideas or stereotypes that I might have. And I think for me, I felt more easy with intercultural working only because my whole cohort was white, so it kind of mimicked the triads that we were having, and you know, the practices that we had, so I felt quite comfortable if I had a white client at my placement. But when I had my first black client, who happened to be a similar age to me, same gender, I was like, Oh my gosh, like this could be like my sister or like, do you know what I mean? And so I was kind of worrying about over identification or, you know, would I be able to have a safe distance and those kinds of things, or even bringing up race felt strange for me, even though I know it was important because I was just like, we don't talk about this. And I, can I, even though we know it's just that unspoken thing. And so I'm used to the silence around it too, even though I'm, you know, a black practitioner. So I guess I'm highlighting that it's not easy. And even if you have lived experience of racialization, it's still hard because everyone's been made to feel like they can't say, and it's uncomfortable. So yeah, that was a growing edge, definitely. I'd say I'm way more comfortable and confident now. Because I guess the tools I give out, I can use. But yeah, strangely enough, it hasn't been easy at all, definitely.

Yeah, I mean, it's not surprising. I mean, there's a couple of things in there. I mean, you mentioned the taboo and that there are things that are not often spoken about.

But also, there's a lot for you to hold there. You know, I'm thinking about you and the cohort of all white therapists and being like, ‘Right, I am the one that will lead this charge’. That's a lot when you're training to be a therapist as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, definitely. It's so strange. Like, I… obviously I know I'm Black, yeah, but it's like, what I say to someone is like, I wake up as Kim, like I brush my teeth, I'm Kim, I put my clothes on, I'm Kim. It's only if I step out the house and I'm met with something or someone that sees me as different, then I will then realise or remember I'm Black. Does that make sense? Or if, yeah, or there's something in the space and it's about... me being black then I might connect with that but ultimately I'm Kim. So the point I'm trying to make is that for the first couple of years, because race wasn't spoken about, I felt quite comfortable with everyone. I've had experiences before, I've been the only black person in the space. I knew how to assimilate, if that makes sense. I knew how to have conversations that just spoke about things that we could relate on. And it's almost kind of like a subconscious default that I would do in terms of trying to connect, because I was, I was away from home, away from my family, and so like my cohort became my family in that way. I guess just as time came along, and you know I know you've done training as well and stuff, there is that time where you're looking at different aspects of yourself with certain things that are coming to the fore, so when the like race thing came around, then it's like Oh, okay. Now I feel like a, like, you know what I mean, like a sore thumb sticking out and now I, I'm aware of the difference then. And even like we had a picture taken and I was kind of sat in the middle and I was like, oh my gosh, I look so different to everyone. It's like, but because I'm looking out, if you know what I mean, I don't think about my difference and stuff. But yeah, I think only then when I was face of race and wanted to talk about it, then I realised how much other people didn't really want to or it was uncomfortable, then I was like, Oh, okay. Now it feels like there's a bit of tension here. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, yeah. It's hard, but then at the same time, there's so many different aspects of self that you can connect with someone. But yeah, definitely when we started talking about difference and race, people would turn and go, Kim, tell us about, and I'm like, no, I don't know about that culture, actually, I’m Jamaican heritage, I don't know, like. Do you know what I mean? And so it's like the energy just kept shifting and I'm sure loads of people can resonate with that, you know, if they're the only person of difference or the only person of colour in their, in their training and stuff. So yeah, it was a bit of a weight towards the end, I'd say, when that came to the fore. Yeah.

It's interesting, you mentioned that when you were on a placement, you set up a supervision group. So I'm wondering, did you always have a bit of an entrepreneurial activist spirit inside you?

Yeah, like my family, they're all self employed. Like, I've grown up going to my mum's, like, office space after school and like, just seeing her in a managerial role, and then my dad like, did different jobs and he was like, worked for himself and stuff. So I had a lot of advice into doing that and also, yeah, it kind of felt like a natural thing to go into because of yeah, my background, but I think also I am a bit of a rebel. I've always been that person that doesn't like to see injustice and will talk to the person that no one talks to or like, try and encourage someone that seems to be left out on their own. Like, do you know what I mean? I've had that kind of part of me. But also, yeah, just kind of doing things a bit different to the status quo, I think. So yeah, I think that is a great part of… mix of the rebel and like entrepreneur mixed together. I think that's what I'd say inspires me to do those kinds of things.

Yeah, you definitely need a bit of that. Because I'm just thinking with all that kind of, you know, tension and discomfort that you went through on training, to take that and turn it into action sounds like the same sort of energy that you need for what you're doing now.

Yeah, definitely. Because, you know, I talk about being more accepting, I guess, of anger, if that makes sense. And I think as a Black woman, that's something that I would stay away from. One, some, some part kind of like Christian values that I brought up with, but then also kind of a fear of if I'm seen as angry, or I look angry, or I'm being angry, how might I be interpreted, or would people be afraid of me as a Black woman? So that was kind of put to the side, but then actually... growing to understand like, through therapy and through reflecting that anger is a motivating energy and you can choose how you use that if you allow yourself to kind of manage that and think about it and understand what it's about. So rather than it just take over and do you know what I mean? There's an outburst. I think, okay, that's really got on my nerves or that's really unfair and not right. What can I do about it? That might not just help me, but help other people. And that's how I've tried to kind of mobilise, I guess, difficult circumstances that I've experienced through this. So, yeah.

So I guess that leads me to thinking a bit about what's the big picture for Kaemotherapy? What's your, kind of, grand plans for the business?

I would like, love, to extend this so that we feel like we can be a community and it can be other people doing the same things but coming together and to do that maybe perhaps on a platform or some kind of partnership working but it really is about and our new strapline is ‘unveiling hidden truths and unlocking silenced voices’ because it's about giving a platform to amplify the voices of black and brown practitioners so that we can fill those gaps within the curriculum so that we can help all therapists feel confident in this area. And then the knock on effect of that being outcomes for clients of colour to have better mental health outcomes. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, we can all win through this process. Do you know what I mean? So, and it's not, I don't see this as just my vision. I hope that I can connect with other people who have similar visions so that we can make a wider impact. And that is why we have expertise within the team who have done PhDs research, that are psychotherapists, counsellors, they've got their lived experience and then maybe as well we can go on to do more research that can be published and utilised within different institutes as well. So yeah, that's. kind of where I see it going. And yeah, hopefully we could utilise some tech and stuff like that as well because I know the world's changing. Hopefully not fully taken over by AI because then we'll be out of a job, but you know, go a little bit down the tech route.

That's so exciting. And I think there's so many avenues that you can, you can take this down because the vision is so important and so kind of big and multifaceted. So at the moment, I know that you've got some pretty high profile clients, some of whom you can't tell us about.

NDA had to be signed, yeah.

Yeah, which just makes us think it's even more amazing. But can you say a little bit about how you made those inroads into working with some of those names that we might have heard of?

Yeah, so like AstraZeneca, for example, you know, that was through a colleague and so we did a partnership presentation and workshop for their Black History Month. I went to one of their headquarters for that, So, and then EAPA UK I was asked to do some work for them over Black History Month a few years ago as well. I think definitely I'd say my research that was on the BACP website is something that's drawn a lot of people in because, you know, if they're a therapist or they're linked to BACP, they'll see that. But then also just networking, do you know what I mean? Having conversations, building relationships and getting those referrals as well. And once you start working with certain companies or certain names and people are then drawn to you as well. So, you know, like working with Mind as well, and Accenture, those are quite big you know, places to, to work for as well. So, yeah, I'm just lucky as well, I guess, because it's not easy, honestly.

It doesn't sound like luck. I think you've got two of the most important building blocks that I always talk about on this podcast, actually, are relationships and being willing to talk to people with passion about what you do, which, you know, you're amazing at. But also there's, there's the authority piece. You know, there's, you've spent the time doing the research, you really know your stuff and are always updating that knowledge. And, you know, there's not that many companies providing anything similar to what you do. And some of the ones that are out there might not be doing that work, and so you'll be shining above those. Authority. It's everything.

No, thank you. No, 100%. Because I know you're like marketing guru, so that means a lot to me, like honestly. And even when I have done my marketing research, because I think that is really key. That is something that comes up all the time, right? Authority. And, you know, some people might wait till they publish a book, but there's so many ways that you can build your authority, whether it's the CPD that you’ve done your posting about, you know, I just love getting in front of the camera and just talking about something I've read or, you know, discussions that we've had through the workshops and things like that, or even just day to day life, just to be like, Hey, racism still exists FYI, you know, come and get a workshop because people need to know that what I'm doing is relevant as well. So yeah, it's so nice that that's seen and that feels really validating. So thank you.

No, I just think it's really important. And people often really underestimate how we can use the research that we're working on at the moment. I love that you mentioned things that have come out of your workshops and sharing that because I think I recorded an episode probably on the last series, I think, I don't know, about social proof and how it's not all about testimonials. I mean, I know you've got some amazing ones and they're great if you can use them, but some of our colleagues with the UKCP and I think there's other bodies too, can't use testimonials. What you can always do is talk about your learning from a client. Because you're not sharing anything personal, you're sharing what's new to you and what you took from it. And I think that's super powerful. So yeah, thank you for mentioning that.

Yeah, yeah. No, that's good, I'll take that as a tip as well.

Yeah, keep doing that. So, I guess one thing that I know a lot of people listening to this are gonna want to ask is how they can get support from you if they want to, you know, bring race into their therapy more, but they're not feeling that confident.

Yeah, no, definitely. I would say get in touch. You know, you could email me at admin@kaemotherapy.com or through our Instagram @Kaemotherapy. And that's K A E M O therapy. And so yeah, just get in touch because you can book a workshop, either one off workshops or what we do now more often is we'll double up to do a main workshop and implementation session, so that we can kind of like track progress and help people to develop and if they've got any issues along the way and things like that. So it's mainly through an organisation. So say for example, if someone is in a clinical team, talk to your clinical manager, because then you know a group of you can come together. But equally if that doesn't feel like it's possible or your manager's not wanting to go for it, still get in touch because we can look at how we can put a group together perhaps. But yeah, we work mainly through organisations. So if you can talk to a decision maker and get in touch with us, that would be amazing.

Awesome. So I'll put all of your details in the show notes so that people can find you there. Thank you so much for your time today, Kim. It's been really valuable, really interesting. And I know a lot of people are going to be galvanised to go and do something, connect with you now.

Yes. Thank you so much for your time. It's been lovely to be with you today.