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The Power In Language With Dr. Suzanne Wertheim
Episode 3423rd January 2024 • Communicate Like You Give A Damn • Kim Clark
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In the next episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn, host Kim Clark, is joined by Suzanne Wertheim, national expert on inclusive language, who discusses the power dynamics at play in language and communication. She highlights the softening language used by people in power to protect each other, especially in cases of egregious behavior. Suzanne explores the concept of power, distinguishing between institutional power and social power based on dominant group membership while emphasizing how individuals from multiple elite and dominant groups receive affinity bias. Together, they even delve into the challenges faced by non-dominant groups in workplaces, where experiences of insult and injury are often dismissed using softening language, contributing to gaslighting and invalidation. This episode is sure to introduce you to Suzanne’s framework for inclusive language, emphasizing the principles of reflecting reality, showing respect, drawing people in, incorporating other perspectives, and recognizing pain points in language and beyond.

About The Guest:

Dr. Suzanne Wertheim is a national expert on inclusive language and the author of The Inclusive Language Field Guide (2023). After getting her Ph.D. in Linguistics from Berkeley, she held faculty positions at Northwestern, University of Maryland, and UCLA. In 2011, she left the university system in order to apply her expertise to real-world problems. Dr. Wertheim has been an invited speaker around the US and in Europe, presenting research on language and bias, language and gender, and anthropology and artificial intelligence. As head of Worthwhile Research & Consulting, Dr. Wertheim now specializes in analyzing and addressing bias at work. 

Find Dr. Wertheim Here:

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Website

Book

About Kim:

Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.

She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.

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Transcripts

Kim Clark:

Hi there, I wanted to let you know that what you're

Kim Clark:

about to listen to is part two of my conversation with our

Kim Clark:

guest. And I really encourage you to listen to part one, in

Kim Clark:

addition to, it can be in a different order. But make sure

Kim Clark:

that you get the whole conversation, the conversation

Kim Clark:

was so rich, that we needed to split it up into two episodes.

Kim Clark:

So take a listen, make sure you catch the first part, and enjoy.

Kim Clark:

Before I get into having you talk about the framework that

Kim Clark:

you introduce in your book, I want to say thank you, I've said

Kim Clark:

this to you personally, but I'm gonna say it here on the podcast

Kim Clark:

for so many of your extremely needed and timely onpoint.

Kim Clark:

LinkedIn posts when social justice issues, especially

Kim Clark:

crisis situations have occurred, you've really shown up to help

Kim Clark:

guide people through how to language some of these issues to

Kim Clark:

stood out for me. One is when the Ukraine war broke out. And

Kim Clark:

then also January 6, can you talk about what you said about

Kim Clark:

January 6? What were you seeing out there of how it was being

Kim Clark:

framed? What was happening there? And you make a

Kim Clark:

significant point that everyone I really hope you take away from

Kim Clark:

this conversation is this idea of being of watching out for

Kim Clark:

softening language and the harm that can be caused from

Kim Clark:

softening language, especially from us as communicators and how

Kim Clark:

we coach our leaders if they're going to make a statement

Kim Clark:

externally or even internally. So if you can kind of remind

Kim Clark:

folks of what did you say around January 6, what were you

Kim Clark:

responding to? And what was your point around softening language?

Suzanne Wertheim:

So I started with a Twitter thread on January

Suzanne Wertheim:

6, right? I didn't like I didn't wait. I started with a Twitter

Suzanne Wertheim:

thread. And I'm like, Ah, this is bad. Like, we have to stop

Suzanne Wertheim:

seeing these things. And then there was a little bit of

Suzanne Wertheim:

uptick, but there was chaos. And I haven't worked to develop a

Suzanne Wertheim:

Twitter following because it's gonna be such an unsafe place

Suzanne Wertheim:

for people who are women, and I don't look particularly white.

Suzanne Wertheim:

So I'm like, hey, you know, I'm gonna leave it. But LinkedIn is

Suzanne Wertheim:

a much better platform for me. So on January 7, they took that

Suzanne Wertheim:

Twitter thread, fleshed it out a little and put it out there. And

Suzanne Wertheim:

it got well over a million views, right? Well, over a

Suzanne Wertheim:

million people read it. And speaking of not arguing with

Suzanne Wertheim:

people, there were some people in the comments who wrote

Suzanne Wertheim:

things, and I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna waste my time

Suzanne Wertheim:

talking to you. Right. So I had earlier that year, no, that's

Suzanne Wertheim:

earlier that year didn't exist. So previous year, I had worked

Suzanne Wertheim:

for a national news organization that really wanted to do bias

Suzanne Wertheim:

their journalistic language. And so I had set up some frameworks

Suzanne Wertheim:

for them on how to report things and I said, you're gonna, you're

Suzanne Wertheim:

gonna get pushed to replicate dominant frameworks and use

Suzanne Wertheim:

language that protects people in power. I was like the police, PR

Suzanne Wertheim:

person is going to give you a spin, where the police have done

Suzanne Wertheim:

no wrong. And the person who got shot by them is to blame and is

Suzanne Wertheim:

a criminal and is dangerous and whatever I'm like, and you're

Suzanne Wertheim:

gonna have government officials that are going to this that so I

Suzanne Wertheim:

was giving helping them unpack. So for me, I had just been

Suzanne Wertheim:

educating about this. So it was very clear to me that reporters

Suzanne Wertheim:

were coming in white reporters, white middle class and up

Suzanne Wertheim:

reporters were coming in and seeing people gathering in front

Suzanne Wertheim:

of the Capitol and finding the commonalities and humanizing and

Suzanne Wertheim:

empathizing with people and saying things like, protest,

Suzanne Wertheim:

protesters and Trump supporters would say three things like Oh,

Suzanne Wertheim:

you like dogs, literally, our conversations with armed

Suzanne Wertheim:

insurrectionists that this is not an exaggeration, right? I'm

Suzanne Wertheim:

not I'm not using hyperbole, I mean, literal armed

Suzanne Wertheim:

insurrectionists out to do damage out to do unlawful

Suzanne Wertheim:

things, including online unlawful takeover, though

Suzanne Wertheim:

government and people were using language that humanize them

Suzanne Wertheim:

presented things from their perspective and was softening

Suzanne Wertheim:

language. So now let me define softening language, which is

Suzanne Wertheim:

softening languages language that present problematic

Suzanne Wertheim:

behavior as reasonable. Right? So it's language and again,

Suzanne Wertheim:

again, all right. So if you think of a threshold, so here's

Suzanne Wertheim:

the dividing line and above it is problematic behavior and

Suzanne Wertheim:

below it is acceptable and reasonable behavior. Softening

Suzanne Wertheim:

language actively moves behavior that is very clearly in the

Suzanne Wertheim:

problematic zone and pushes it under the threshold of

Suzanne Wertheim:

acceptability into the acceptable reasonable zone where

Suzanne Wertheim:

it doesn't make sense to do anything about it. It doesn't

Suzanne Wertheim:

make sense why Why are you pushing back? Why are you

Suzanne Wertheim:

calling me out? Why are you saying these things? Why are you

Suzanne Wertheim:

saying this is unacceptable? So? Yep, so this is the term that

Suzanne Wertheim:

I've used for it. I talked about it so that that post went viral

Suzanne Wertheim:

because people felt I think very comforting. You feel gaslit?

Suzanne Wertheim:

Right, right. So in therapeutic psychology, it's called

Suzanne Wertheim:

invalidation and dis confirmation, right? So you can

Suzanne Wertheim:

see things with your own eyes, and you're experiencing them

Suzanne Wertheim:

yourself. And you're like, and then somebody says, that's not

Suzanne Wertheim:

how it was, this is how it was, it wasn't bad, it was like this.

Suzanne Wertheim:

Right? So I think, collectively as a country, because most of us

Suzanne Wertheim:

are not nearly as polarized as people like to make out there's

Suzanne Wertheim:

a very vocal minority. But a lot of people want rule of law and

Suzanne Wertheim:

transparency and order. And all of the government that funds

Suzanne Wertheim:

things that we need, you know, like, just want things. And it

Suzanne Wertheim:

felt like, like journalism, which is supposed to be

Suzanne Wertheim:

reporting things as they are follow is still client instinct,

Suzanne Wertheim:

you're buying into this framing that is so clearly wrong. And so

Suzanne Wertheim:

I think that's why I think that's why it resonated with

Suzanne Wertheim:

people so much. Do you want to hear how it plays out in the

Suzanne Wertheim:

workplace, because it's the same pattern?

Kim Clark:

Absolutely. And before you get into that, I'll

Kim Clark:

say that I've run into issues with people saying, well, my

Kim Clark:

leader doesn't want to say the murder of George Floyd, they

Kim Clark:

want to say, the death or that he died. And so it was a similar

Kim Clark:

kind of reality check, where there was this kind of, you

Kim Clark:

know, helplessness that was invited by putting it into the

Kim Clark:

appropriate or reasonable area, rather than by softening the

Kim Clark:

language, rather than we have to deal with this harsh reality

Kim Clark:

that, that this man was murdered by a policeman. You know, it's

Kim Clark:

like, it's hard for us to just for some of us, not all of us,

Kim Clark:

right? There's communities that live this every single day. And

Kim Clark:

then there's communities that I'm a part of that doesn't,

Kim Clark:

right. And so there's this calculation that our heads go

Kim Clark:

through for some of our demographics, that it doesn't

Kim Clark:

compute. And so it's hard for us to call a thing a thing,

Kim Clark:

sometimes. So I just wanted to add that example. Yes, please

Kim Clark:

give us some in the workplace.

Suzanne Wertheim:

But let me go back and say also, there was

Suzanne Wertheim:

this after George Floyd, I can't remember who it was, but I think

Suzanne Wertheim:

it was a TV critic did this very good interrogation of so many

Suzanne Wertheim:

shows have been cop shows that you end up sympathizing with

Suzanne Wertheim:

empathizing with humanizing the police and seeing everything

Suzanne Wertheim:

from their perspective. But then he goes through, and this

Suzanne Wertheim:

terrible thing happens in the show, and this one, and then

Suzanne Wertheim:

they just go off stage. Right? So for communities who live in

Suzanne Wertheim:

that's the main story for them. I got paralyzed by a cop who

Suzanne Wertheim:

shot me for no reason, right? But you know, for the cops, it's

Suzanne Wertheim:

like, oh, my agony, I shot someone, and I probably

Suzanne Wertheim:

shouldn't have I guess I have to go to therapy. Right. So whose

Suzanne Wertheim:

perspective? Who's humanized? Who do we get to really see as a

Suzanne Wertheim:

full fledged human being? Okay, even before I go to the

Suzanne Wertheim:

workplace, I want to say that another area I see this in and

Suzanne Wertheim:

this goes right back to the 90s. When I was putting together

Suzanne Wertheim:

these conferences and editing these volumes, people for

Suzanne Wertheim:

decades have been doing work on courtroom language and reporting

Suzanne Wertheim:

of sexual assault and sexual harassment, and how frequently

Suzanne Wertheim:

they weren't calling itself any language, but they're showing

Suzanne Wertheim:

all these mechanisms. And so people end up with acquittals or

Suzanne Wertheim:

a slap on the wrist because the framing is so frequently, even

Suzanne Wertheim:

in the Brock Turner case, why should his life be ruined for 20

Suzanne Wertheim:

minutes of fun said, I think and this is like how it goes

Suzanne Wertheim:

through. So there's this way in which um, so as I was writing

Suzanne Wertheim:

the book, or not long before I wrote the book, Mary Kay

Suzanne Wertheim:

LeTourneau died. And so for your viewers and listeners who are

Suzanne Wertheim:

international, this is a woman in the US who was a teacher and

Suzanne Wertheim:

headlines when she died. She was a very pretty young woman in her

Suzanne Wertheim:

mid 30s. But look much younger, thin, white, blonde woman very

Suzanne Wertheim:

attractive. And she it was so headlines today said things like

Suzanne Wertheim:

Mary Kay LeTourneau teacher who was jailed for an inappropriate

Suzanne Wertheim:

relationship with her student dies, right? inappropriate

Suzanne Wertheim:

relationship with their students. So in my book, I

Suzanne Wertheim:

unpack what that is. And I'm like, Ah, it's right. Like it.

Suzanne Wertheim:

And you may think, oh, maybe like he's a manly 17 year old.

Suzanne Wertheim:

He was 12 years old. He was 12 years old. Children cannot

Suzanne Wertheim:

consent to sex with adults. You don't. There's no other

Suzanne Wertheim:

language. She went to jail on felony counts of rape. So a

Suzanne Wertheim:

headline should say like, if you read that softening language, or

Suzanne Wertheim:

that that that language that hides things. Let's talk about

Suzanne Wertheim:

the softening for I have a section of my book on invisible

Suzanne Wertheim:

lesbians. I was talking about this with a friend of mine who

Suzanne Wertheim:

grew up in a more conservative House All she said she was in

Suzanne Wertheim:

her 30s When she realized her aunt's roommate was her

Suzanne Wertheim:

basically wife, because it was always her aunt's friend is

Suzanne Wertheim:

softening language. Like the reality is they're in a romantic

Suzanne Wertheim:

relationship that is just as valid as all the heterosexual

Suzanne Wertheim:

relationships in our family. But we're softening it to something

Suzanne Wertheim:

else, right? to mask it to hide it in the workplace sexual

Suzanne Wertheim:

harassment and sexual wall sexual harassment, and also

Suzanne Wertheim:

comments that I'm just going to say here, because I think we're

Suzanne Wertheim:

in group everyone who cares enough to listen to this

Suzanne Wertheim:

already, I think is bought in. So racist comments, sexist

Suzanne Wertheim:

comments, homophobic comments, these things are quite frequent

Suzanne Wertheim:

in the workplace. And I consult with employment lawyers and I

Suzanne Wertheim:

run continuing legal education courses on bias for lawyers,

Suzanne Wertheim:

right. So I'm, I'm soaking in this stuff will often get

Suzanne Wertheim:

dismissed by managers and HR. Right? So somebody comes in

Suzanne Wertheim:

reports and says, Hmm, I've been keeping a list here are things

Suzanne Wertheim:

that my teammates are saying. And also people with perceptible

Suzanne Wertheim:

disabilities. My goodness, do people feel very entitled to ask

Suzanne Wertheim:

the most intrusive questions, including about their sex lives?

Suzanne Wertheim:

But like the most interesting questions, I'm like, That can't

Suzanne Wertheim:

be happening. Here's my I'm not perceptively disabled, right. So

Suzanne Wertheim:

I don't get those kinds of questions. I get a lot of short

Suzanne Wertheim:

jokes, because I'm very short. And I'm like, Yeah, okay. But

Suzanne Wertheim:

um, I'm not short enough for it to be a problem beyond reaching

Suzanne Wertheim:

things in a market, you know. But people are saying things

Suzanne Wertheim:

that I'm like, This is so egregious, and it was sent to

Suzanne Wertheim:

you this year. So what happens is very consistently, people

Suzanne Wertheim:

with power are protecting people with power by using softening

Suzanne Wertheim:

language. And let me talk about power, because there's two kinds

Suzanne Wertheim:

of power and I've had some autistic workshop attendees be

Suzanne Wertheim:

like, I don't see power the way other people do. Can you unpack

Suzanne Wertheim:

this for me? So let me do that. For artistic viewers and

Suzanne Wertheim:

listeners. Power can be institutional, like you're a

Suzanne Wertheim:

high ranked person in the org chart, or you have power over

Suzanne Wertheim:

people who report to you select a manager, a director of Vice

Suzanne Wertheim:

President and CEO. But power also comes from dominant group

Suzanne Wertheim:

membership for social power. So how many, the more dominant

Suzanne Wertheim:

groups you belong to the more social power you have. So in

Suzanne Wertheim:

that Brock Turner case, Brock Turner was a white cisgendered,

Suzanne Wertheim:

heterosexual, presumably, man, who was an athlete at an elite

Suzanne Wertheim:

college, right? So that's seven, I just counted up seven, high

Suzanne Wertheim:

status groups that he was a member of.

Kim Clark:

So there's the ones that he's able bodied, so that's

Kim Clark:

eight

Suzanne Wertheim:

is able bodied, and able bodied. So and,

Suzanne Wertheim:

and conventionally attractive, right? So all of these things

Suzanne Wertheim:

show, suddenly, all the perspective taking of the white

Suzanne Wertheim:

cisgendered, heterosexual male judge, all of that affinity

Suzanne Wertheim:

bias, all that perspective taking goes to him and

Suzanne Wertheim:

protecting him and wanting to see the good in him, because we

Suzanne Wertheim:

come from the starting point, that white people are inherently

Suzanne Wertheim:

good, or that male people are inherently good. So you hear

Suzanne Wertheim:

softening language, like after a very egregious thing. Well, he's

Suzanne Wertheim:

a good guy, or Oh, boys will be boys, or he's just showing his

Suzanne Wertheim:

admiration for you. Those are like sexual harassment things,

Suzanne Wertheim:

or they're just curious, or they're so young, or they don't

Suzanne Wertheim:

know better, you should educate them. And it's like, We're the

Suzanne Wertheim:

same age, right? People come to me, I run these interviews,

Suzanne Wertheim:

right? Let me explain it part, my data comes in part from data

Suzanne Wertheim:

that's available to everybody through the internet, or I see

Suzanne Wertheim:

the headlines you do or I follow a lot of people on social media

Suzanne Wertheim:

who aren't members of my group, so I can get insight to those.

Suzanne Wertheim:

But people, people, I run these employee experience interviews,

Suzanne Wertheim:

which don't have leading questions at all. So instead of

Suzanne Wertheim:

saying, Have you ever experienced bias at work, I'm

Suzanne Wertheim:

like, has there ever been a time that you felt like people were

Suzanne Wertheim:

marking you lower than your actual status? And then the

Suzanne Wertheim:

stories come spilling it? Was there ever a time that you felt

Suzanne Wertheim:

you were central, but someone seem to be pushing you to the

Suzanne Wertheim:

outside? Right, you know, has there ever been a time that you

Suzanne Wertheim:

tried to say something and you felt like it was ignored? Well,

Suzanne Wertheim:

guess what people from these non dominant groups, the stories

Suzanne Wertheim:

spill out of them. And so so many people report that there's

Suzanne Wertheim:

insult to injury, Injury is their colleagues say bad things

Suzanne Wertheim:

to them problematic language. Insult is they report it to a

Suzanne Wertheim:

manager or an HR person and say, here's a problem. And they're

Suzanne Wertheim:

told it's not a problem by using softening language. So that's a

Suzanne Wertheim:

thing to be again, the gaslighting that disconfirmation

Suzanne Wertheim:

and invalidation where you're like, This feels bad to me, this

Suzanne Wertheim:

feels like a problem. And then somebody with power says to you,

Suzanne Wertheim:

that's not a problem. And why then and then insult insult to

Suzanne Wertheim:

injury or injury on top of injury. Why are you playing the

Suzanne Wertheim:

race card? Why are you being so emotional? Oh, women are so

Suzanne Wertheim:

hysterical. You're always playing the gender card. This is

Suzanne Wertheim:

just how it is in a workplace. You need to toughen up. Why are

Suzanne Wertheim:

you always the victim? Right? So it's this. So I had to come up

Suzanne Wertheim:

with softening language and inflating language, which we

Suzanne Wertheim:

don't really have time to talk about to talk about. What's the

Suzanne Wertheim:

bias that happens when we talk about bias, right? It's like a

Suzanne Wertheim:

layer upon layer. It's one thing when the bias happens, then

Suzanne Wertheim:

people try to say, Oh, this bias thing is happening, we should

Suzanne Wertheim:

talk about it. And then they're shut down by being told that

Suzanne Wertheim:

they're the problem. And that what they're seeing as a problem

Suzanne Wertheim:

isn't actually a problem. It's just one two punch of softening

Suzanne Wertheim:

language and inflating language. No, you're the problem. And so

Suzanne Wertheim:

guess what people leave. And that's why you see so many, for

Suzanne Wertheim:

example, black women, starting up their own firms. I love to

Suzanne Wertheim:

start at my own firm. I'm like, I'm not dealing with this.

Kim Clark:

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, the, when I worked at GoDaddy,

Kim Clark:

that was research that we had done of who is starting up new

Kim Clark:

businesses, and it's educated, over educated almost, it's such

Kim Clark:

additional degrees of education. Black women, they're the ones

Kim Clark:

starting up their own businesses, because they're not,

Kim Clark:

they're not going to be in the, in the carpet, you know,

Kim Clark:

especially the corporate atmosphere anymore, so And who

Kim Clark:

can blame, you know, blame them. And I love partnering with them,

Kim Clark:

you know, in this work, because they're out doing their own

Kim Clark:

thing as well. So we can come together and joint ventures. So

Kim Clark:

I would love for you to introduce the framework that you

Kim Clark:

introduced in your book, the inclusive language, Field Guide,

Kim Clark:

great title, and thank you, and, and talk to us through a lens of

Kim Clark:

of this framework applying to people who are in corporate

Kim Clark:

communications, internal communications, marketing

Kim Clark:

brands, and how we need to apply this framework to our work on a

Kim Clark:

regular basis.

Suzanne Wertheim:

So this book, specifically has corporate comms

Suzanne Wertheim:

in its targets, right? Because it my clients who were like, Oh,

Suzanne Wertheim:

my God, like you have to help me. Not only does the framework

Suzanne Wertheim:

is the framework designed to help corporate comms, I designed

Suzanne Wertheim:

a whole checklist that you can use that's in the back of the

Suzanne Wertheim:

book and the resources section that you can use to create your

Suzanne Wertheim:

own checklist. So I created a checklist template, which is

Suzanne Wertheim:

kind of a weird mouthful. But I'm like, you go through, I'm

Suzanne Wertheim:

like, I'm going to hold your hand through this whole process.

Suzanne Wertheim:

And I go through all the relevant dimensions of human

Suzanne Wertheim:

identity that corporate comms people need to be thinking

Suzanne Wertheim:

about. And the checklist. Did I really include this? Did I

Suzanne Wertheim:

include this? Did I make sure this happened? So just for

Suzanne Wertheim:

corporate comms people?

Unknown:

I got you on? Excellent. It's in the back of

Unknown:

the book. Yeah. But the framework is because people kept

Unknown:

coming to me and saying,

Suzanne Wertheim:

there's this list, but then I don't know how

Suzanne Wertheim:

to memorize it. And this one feels like it's already out of

Suzanne Wertheim:

date. And then, but I'm in groups. So can I use this word?

Suzanne Wertheim:

And then how do I apply it to this category, like, Okay, this

Suzanne Wertheim:

is about race. But now I'm confused about disability. And

Suzanne Wertheim:

so what I realized is that using identity as a starting point for

Suzanne Wertheim:

inclusive language, was self defeating. Even though identity

Suzanne Wertheim:

is a core component of what needs to be kept in mind as

Suzanne Wertheim:

you're using an inclusion lens for your comms. Identity is key.

Suzanne Wertheim:

But I actually learned that it shouldn't be the starting point.

Suzanne Wertheim:

So using my toolkit of linguistic anthropology, I went

Suzanne Wertheim:

and I looked back on literally 25 years from when I was a wee

Suzanne Wertheim:

little grad student, 25 years of research and data, dating back

Suzanne Wertheim:

to classes it aid in the 90s, to courses that I would teach and

Suzanne Wertheim:

how things would land with undergrads. And what would they

Suzanne Wertheim:

write to me seven years later that they still remembered, and

Suzanne Wertheim:

thinking about all the different languages that I had researched,

Suzanne Wertheim:

and places I live, all the access to other cultures and

Suzanne Wertheim:

languages that I've gotten from anthropology, conferences,

Suzanne Wertheim:

anthropology books, etc. And I created a framework that's

Suzanne Wertheim:

granular and based on behaviors, behaviors that are meant to be

Suzanne Wertheim:

universal. So my book, my publisher said, Can you please

Suzanne Wertheim:

focus it on American English? I was like, man, okay, I'll do it.

Suzanne Wertheim:

I'll do it. But the book isn't only and I have a little apology

Suzanne Wertheim:

in there. I'm like, hi, if you're reading this and you're

Suzanne Wertheim:

not in the US, you're going to have to do some translation

Suzanne Wertheim:

work. I'm sorry. Like, let me acknowledge American English is

Suzanne Wertheim:

not the world. Us is not everywhere, right. But it is

Suzanne Wertheim:

designed to be cross linguistically and cross

Suzanne Wertheim:

culturally valid. So inclusive language actually boils down to

Suzanne Wertheim:

inclusive behavior that involves language, right? So I've talked

Suzanne Wertheim:

about my first principle is reflect reality, which PS means

Suzanne Wertheim:

you're often coming in sounding a lot harsher than you think a

Suzanne Wertheim:

lot of people who don't understand inclusive language

Suzanne Wertheim:

are like, Oh, you gotta soften it. It's got to be roses and

Suzanne Wertheim:

teddy bears. And I don't even know what soft things are. But

Suzanne Wertheim:

you know what I mean? And I'm like, No, say rape, say police

Suzanne Wertheim:

murder, say, you know, I'm like, say the thing. So for me reflect

Suzanne Wertheim:

reality is my most important one, because it undergirds

Suzanne Wertheim:

everything. And it's saying, reality is being masked now. And

Suzanne Wertheim:

the more we can actually reflect what the reality is not just for

Suzanne Wertheim:

people with power, like for all kinds of people, the better it's

Suzanne Wertheim:

going to be. And then from that, the next most important one is

Suzanne Wertheim:

show respect, which I think should be pretty obvious.

Suzanne Wertheim:

correlated with show respect, is draw people in principle three.

Suzanne Wertheim:

So they're the same thing. Make sure you're marking people at

Suzanne Wertheim:

the right level, be respectful of them, not demeaning, and draw

Suzanne Wertheim:

people in stop pushing people out and marginalizing them. Then

Suzanne Wertheim:

we have incorporate other perspectives, which ties into

Suzanne Wertheim:

reflect reality, but is important enough to be its own

Suzanne Wertheim:

thing. How many perspectives? Am I including in this piece of

Suzanne Wertheim:

communication? Is there something that I'm forgetting

Suzanne Wertheim:

that would make this inappropriate? Remind me that I

Suzanne Wertheim:

want to talk about the h&m Hoodie at the end of this? I

Suzanne Wertheim:

don't know if you remember it? Yes. Then my last two are number

Suzanne Wertheim:

five, prevent a ratio. Because there are so many people, kinds

Suzanne Wertheim:

of people and kinds of experiences that have just been

Suzanne Wertheim:

erased. In the book. One of the examples I give is indigenous

Suzanne Wertheim:

history is erased in so many ways. First off, when was this

Suzanne Wertheim:

town founded? It was founded in 1858? No people have lived here

Suzanne Wertheim:

for 10s of 1000s of years. Like no like, like no like a just

Suzanne Wertheim:

know, B. I see all the time. The natives used to the love the

Suzanne Wertheim:

natives, maybe let's have the local natives used to I'm like,

Suzanne Wertheim:

Ah, they have specific nation names. And we've got cultural

Suzanne Wertheim:

language history differences. You don't just say the natives

Suzanne Wertheim:

to mean, so many different groups of people, you know. So

Suzanne Wertheim:

there are all these ways that eraser happens. And I'm like,

Suzanne Wertheim:

you know, and then and then the third part of arratia for

Suzanne Wertheim:

natives is people act like they're all gone, you know, so I

Suzanne Wertheim:

used to do volunteer work up the road at Berkeley, with people,

Suzanne Wertheim:

for example, alone. He's from Santa Cruz, I remember some, and

Suzanne Wertheim:

from with California, natives from all over the state who

Suzanne Wertheim:

would come in and they would tell me so many stories, and

Suzanne Wertheim:

people are like, they're like, Wait, you're not all dead? You

Suzanne Wertheim:

live here. And people like yeah, like, people have been here a

Suzanne Wertheim:

long time, like, yeah, like I was here. And I am here. So

Suzanne Wertheim:

these kinds of arratia are deeply painful, but also create

Suzanne Wertheim:

very bad mental models, like they give us such biased mental

Suzanne Wertheim:

models, because how are you going to make good judgments? If

Suzanne Wertheim:

the data, the communications data that's been put in your

Suzanne Wertheim:

head, what's been communicated to you through media? What's

Suzanne Wertheim:

that telling you? And then my last one is recognized pain

Suzanne Wertheim:

points, which ties in very well with your book. Because what

Suzanne Wertheim:

we're both talking about is, let me give you an example. I gave a

Suzanne Wertheim:

workshop at a very techie tech company like techie tech, right.

Suzanne Wertheim:

And there were two black people there. And one of them brought

Suzanne Wertheim:

me in, and the other was sitting at a table in the front. And

Suzanne Wertheim:

then the room was filled with Oh, and one of them was my co

Suzanne Wertheim:

host, my co facilitator, so three black people. So a

Suzanne Wertheim:

stakeholder, a person who actually showed up because he

Suzanne Wertheim:

worked there in HR, and then and then my, my co facilitator, and

Suzanne Wertheim:

one of the things we talked about was how problematic the

Suzanne Wertheim:

use of articulate can be, when applied as opposed to compliment

Suzanne Wertheim:

to black. And I break this down in my book, I'm not going to go

Suzanne Wertheim:

into details, but we had them discussing articulate. And so a

Suzanne Wertheim:

table of all white male engineers was very frustrated,

Suzanne Wertheim:

maybe kind of angry, and they said, We had to Google this. How

Suzanne Wertheim:

in the world are we supposed to know that this is a problem? We

Suzanne Wertheim:

don't have any black people on our team. We don't have black

Suzanne Wertheim:

people in our neighborhoods. We don't have black people who were

Suzanne Wertheim:

friends with how are we supposed to know they said angrily. And

Suzanne Wertheim:

so it was so hard for us. You like we exchanged a look, me and

Suzanne Wertheim:

my black co facilitator, right? And I'm like, Ah, I'm like,

Suzanne Wertheim:

isn't this pointing out that C inclusive language and inclusive

Suzanne Wertheim:

comms are a series of trapdoors that you keep on going down to

Suzanne Wertheim:

the ground truth, which is that it's not good that you have no

Suzanne Wertheim:

black teammates, coworkers, bosses, neighbors, friends. And

Suzanne Wertheim:

so even though you don't, isn't it your responsibility to know

Suzanne Wertheim:

about this stuff? Is is the fact that your life is a product of

Suzanne Wertheim:

systemic racism and ways that people have been denied

Suzanne Wertheim:

opportunities and so many points of their life? Is that a reason

Suzanne Wertheim:

for you to just sit there comfortably? So I think of it I

Suzanne Wertheim:

don't know. Have that movie, but I think he's a little heavy

Suzanne Wertheim:

handed that nice Korean director who did Snowpiercer. But

Suzanne Wertheim:

Snowpiercer is a train based version of that where different

Suzanne Wertheim:

railroad cards have cars have people with different levels of

Suzanne Wertheim:

comfort, effort, good treatment, negative treatment experiences,

Suzanne Wertheim:

and there a bunch of people who are living a very comfortable,

Suzanne Wertheim:

luxurious, happy life, because they're being served by people

Suzanne Wertheim:

who are in most misery. Right. And so again, it's heavy handed,

Suzanne Wertheim:

but

Unknown:

but it's also a very reasonable allegory. Mm

Kim Clark:

hmm. All right. So I'm gonna remind you about the

Kim Clark:

h&m hoodie, example. And then I'm gonna give you our last

Kim Clark:

couple of questions to round up. This has been an incredible

Kim Clark:

conversation. And hopefully, it really guides people into giving

Kim Clark:

them confidence to say, you know, you know, whenever they

Kim Clark:

have the push back, or it gives them more of a depth of an

Kim Clark:

understanding and a scientific base for the purpose for

Kim Clark:

inclusive language. And so I'm so grateful for your time and

Kim Clark:

expertise and this book that you're giving. So tell us about

Kim Clark:

the h&m hoodie, and then I'll follow up with a couple of

Kim Clark:

closing common questions.

Suzanne Wertheim:

So h&m, pre pandemic, way pre pennant is

Suzanne Wertheim:

eight years ago ish, put out a hoodie for children that said,

Suzanne Wertheim:

cutest monkey in the jungle. And then they pictured a young black

Suzanne Wertheim:

boy wearing it, I remember that. And so this is incorporate other

Suzanne Wertheim:

perspectives and recognized pain points in it. So I looked at

Suzanne Wertheim:

that when I look at that and other marketing fails that bring

Suzanne Wertheim:

down the wrath of the internet. I'm like, buy my book that you

Suzanne Wertheim:

could avoid this, or you didn't have a book at the time. Um, I

Suzanne Wertheim:

don't think that nobody knew that this was a problem. And PS,

Suzanne Wertheim:

this was in Sweden, where there's not that many black

Suzanne Wertheim:

people. So I'm kind of like, I think someone may have been a

Suzanne Wertheim:

bad faith actor in that. But part of inclusive language and

Suzanne Wertheim:

part of the stuff that you're talking about in your book as

Suzanne Wertheim:

well is having the safety and these guidelines in this

Suzanne Wertheim:

framework to have a discussion. There's no way people didn't

Suzanne Wertheim:

know that that was a problem. But I'm sure because fashion can

Suzanne Wertheim:

be so hierarchical, and so racist, based on stories,

Suzanne Wertheim:

friends of mine who worked for luxury brands have told me, I'm

Suzanne Wertheim:

sure that there are people in that room who were like, this

Suzanne Wertheim:

should not happen. But they didn't feel safe enough to talk

Suzanne Wertheim:

about it. And there wasn't a pre established framework, let's

Suzanne Wertheim:

make sure we're doing these things. If they had a checklist

Suzanne Wertheim:

that would never have happened. So that's the h&m hooding, when

Suzanne Wertheim:

you don't follow principles of inclusive language, your brand

Suzanne Wertheim:

can take a hit, your stock prices can go down, you can lose

Suzanne Wertheim:

clients, you can get I know they say all press is good press. But

Suzanne Wertheim:

not all press is good press. I think there was a rapper who was

Suzanne Wertheim:

going to do a collaboration with them, and he dropped out. Right.

Suzanne Wertheim:

So like, that's just a few words. But it was done badly.

Suzanne Wertheim:

And it violated several principles of inclusive

Suzanne Wertheim:

language. And they really paid a price for a time I'm sure h&m is

Suzanne Wertheim:

doing fine now. And

Kim Clark:

you and I have talked about this, that there is such a

Kim Clark:

complimentary package between your book that's coming out, and

Kim Clark:

what our book is about the conscious communicator the fine

Kim Clark:

art of not saying stupid shit. And so, you know, so if you're

Kim Clark:

in in communications, marketing, brand, content creation, these

Kim Clark:

are the two books that you bring together as part of your

Kim Clark:

package. If you're listening to this pre October 3 2023.

Kim Clark:

Suzanne's book is available for preorder if you're available, if

Kim Clark:

you're listening to this post, October 3 2023, then you can get

Kim Clark:

it anywhere you buy your book, support your local independent

Kim Clark:

bookstores as well. So Suzanne, I've got this question, I like

Kim Clark:

to ask everybody and I'm super curious of what your response is

Kim Clark:

going to be.

Unknown:

What does it sound like? To communicate like you

Unknown:

give a damn.

Suzanne Wertheim:

I mean, from this perspective, it really is

Suzanne Wertheim:

the whole purpose of my book is follow the principles of

Suzanne Wertheim:

inclusive language. And so the secret behind following the

Suzanne Wertheim:

principles of inclusive language, which I just laid out,

Suzanne Wertheim:

there's only six of them. I think they're very logical. I

Suzanne Wertheim:

think they're very intuitive. They're very straightforward.

Suzanne Wertheim:

I've run them by people. They're like, yeah, sure, no problem.

Suzanne Wertheim:

The secret behind it, is that you got to put in some effort,

Suzanne Wertheim:

right? So your book and my book work together, because they lay

Suzanne Wertheim:

out specifically, what effort is required for people to do like,

Suzanne Wertheim:

like, sometimes people get called out and they hear do the

Suzanne Wertheim:

work, and then they're like, but what I don't, I don't know what

Suzanne Wertheim:

to do, like a lot of people and like, is it the internet's job

Suzanne Wertheim:

to educate everybody? No. I'm like, okay, it'll be my job. You

Suzanne Wertheim:

were like, okay, it'll be our job. Right? Well, we'll educate

Suzanne Wertheim:

you. So So doing the work means, like that example, I just gave

Suzanne Wertheim:

you with those with those white men who were like, I don't know,

Suzanne Wertheim:

black people, how am I supposed to know this? Well figure out

Suzanne Wertheim:

what your areas are, where you've been not given enough

Suzanne Wertheim:

information and start getting that information. So in the book

Suzanne Wertheim:

I have, by the way, I have exercises. So I've got those six

Suzanne Wertheim:

principles. And what I say in the book is, you wouldn't read a

Suzanne Wertheim:

book about French, if you don't speak French, you wouldn't spend

Suzanne Wertheim:

three hours reading a book on French close it and be like,

Suzanne Wertheim:

alright, I speak French. Now, we know that to acquire a foreign

Suzanne Wertheim:

language, you have to practice and it's incremental change in

Suzanne Wertheim:

practice over time, PS inclusive language skills are very similar

Suzanne Wertheim:

to foreign language skills, you're moving into a different

Suzanne Wertheim:

space, acquiring new habits, sometimes new syntax with

Suzanne Wertheim:

pronouns, right, you're going to use things syntactically

Suzanne Wertheim:

different than you did before. And so how can you do that? The

Suzanne Wertheim:

answer is through practice. And so at the end of each principal

Suzanne Wertheim:

chapter, I give five quick wins that people can start

Suzanne Wertheim:

implementing right away, stop saying master bathroom, and

Suzanne Wertheim:

start saying primary bathroom or main bathroom. Stop saying

Suzanne Wertheim:

oriental, here's what you can use instead. Right? So those are

Suzanne Wertheim:

some quick wins. But then there are other things that take more

Suzanne Wertheim:

time to build up. The idea is that if you build up the habits,

Suzanne Wertheim:

then when the thing happens, when the crisis happens, you've

Suzanne Wertheim:

been talking about having the integrity have being deliberate,

Suzanne Wertheim:

having things already figured out. For me, it's the crisis

Suzanne Wertheim:

happens, you don't have to learn from scratch, right? Everything

Suzanne Wertheim:

about that group, because you're like, I already know about

Suzanne Wertheim:

issues facing transgender people. That's right, I already

Suzanne Wertheim:

know about issues facing undocumented immigrants. That's

Suzanne Wertheim:

right, I already know about gender bias at work, because

Suzanne Wertheim:

you've been putting in the work. So to me, giving a damn means

Suzanne Wertheim:

incorporating this into honestly, your daily habits,

Suzanne Wertheim:

there's some things I'm like spend five minutes a day, doing

Suzanne Wertheim:

this kind of cleanup, I would say, as advice, one of the top

Suzanne Wertheim:

things I would recommend is diversifying your social media.

Suzanne Wertheim:

So a lot of people through affinity bias, just have very

Suzanne Wertheim:

straight and narrow social media. But it's the most

Suzanne Wertheim:

fantastic way, as you know, to eavesdrop on conversations, and

Suzanne Wertheim:

learn without draining people. So so many people from

Suzanne Wertheim:

marginalized groups are asked to do like emotional labor, and

Suzanne Wertheim:

intellectual labor, teach me but don't make me mad, is this

Suzanne Wertheim:

terrible conundrum that so many people have, and they're like,

Suzanne Wertheim:

but I'm tired. I talked about this in my ally Skills Workshop

Suzanne Wertheim:

that I'm about to give to a big tech client at 7am tomorrow. But

Suzanne Wertheim:

I'm like, you know, like, you gotta gotta, you got to know

Suzanne Wertheim:

your you got to know your stuff. Don't ask people who have been

Suzanne Wertheim:

injured, to educate you on how they were injured, please tend

Suzanne Wertheim:

to them and educate yourself on the injury and how to prevent

Suzanne Wertheim:

that don't don't make the injured person be the educator

Suzanne Wertheim:

on here's not to have not not to hit not to injure me again. And

Suzanne Wertheim:

PS Don't get mad at me as I tell you about it. So, yeah, that's

Kim Clark:

set up to fail. So you know, a big part of

Kim Clark:

everything that you've been talking about is one of the

Kim Clark:

things that I share all the time on this podcast, which is

Kim Clark:

language leads to behavior, straight forward, very clear

Kim Clark:

power of language, power structures, the importance of

Kim Clark:

the power of language and how we're using it. And being really

Kim Clark:

knowledgeable on inclusive language, make sure to get your

Kim Clark:

book, the inclusive language Field Guide coming out October

Kim Clark:

3 2023. How can people follow you and continue to learn from

Kim Clark:

you?

Suzanne Wertheim:

So the two main ways that people alike are

Suzanne Wertheim:

to follow me on LinkedIn, so we've talked about my LinkedIn

Suzanne Wertheim:

posts, I have posts that go viral about every two months,

Suzanne Wertheim:

because what I do is when I see people talking about a thing,

Suzanne Wertheim:

oh, Chad TPTs causing these problems, or Oh, Christian

Suzanne Wertheim:

bells, dinner party was kind of white, or I go or why was this

Suzanne Wertheim:

one black player reamed for making the same gesture that the

Suzanne Wertheim:

white player made? Why are we only so what I do is like, those

Suzanne Wertheim:

are just three that went viral in the last whatever, six

Suzanne Wertheim:

months. I take topical things and I apply these frameworks

Suzanne Wertheim:

that I've worked out to them. So they become very clear. And I

Suzanne Wertheim:

think people can see the patterns in a way so they feel

Suzanne Wertheim:

more grounded and calm down. So follow me on LinkedIn is the

Suzanne Wertheim:

number one and then number two, is sign up for my newsletter,

Suzanne Wertheim:

which comes out twice a month, once a month, I give away a free

Suzanne Wertheim:

article that analyzes something topical, so the most recent one

Suzanne Wertheim:

was about cisgender why does this sound and feel weird as a

Suzanne Wertheim:

as a prefix, but why should we use it anyway? And I went

Suzanne Wertheim:

through the linguistic reasons why when compared it to an

Suzanne Wertheim:

acoustic guitar and an analog watch and then people like, Oh,

Suzanne Wertheim:

they're like, oh, then that makes sense. Like acoustic

Suzanne Wertheim:

guitar sounded weird when we say started it, and now it's

Suzanne Wertheim:

perfectly reasonable. And then, once a month, I send out an

Suzanne Wertheim:

advice column where readers email me questions that get

Suzanne Wertheim:

anonymized. And they're like, I got a question. I'm like, I'll

Suzanne Wertheim:

answer it for free. So you get free tips and advice, you can go

Suzanne Wertheim:

to my website, which is Suzanne worth time.com. And there is a

Suzanne Wertheim:

sign up, right there, don't sell information. We have a very long

Suzanne Wertheim:

privacy policy, literally all we do is email out twice a month.

Kim Clark:

Yeah, you're pretty safe whenever you share your

Kim Clark:

email with anyone. And diversity, equity and inclusion

Kim Clark:

are gonna really be very protective of your privacy, for

Kim Clark:

sure. And we'll put all of this in the show notes as well, to

Kim Clark:

make sure that people have access to your information and

Kim Clark:

everything that you just shared. What a pleasure, what an honor

Kim Clark:

to have you. I mean, you are like the perfect guest for

Kim Clark:

communicate like you give a damn, thank you for the

Kim Clark:

generosity that you share on a regular basis through your

Kim Clark:

newsletters and your, your q&a sessions. And now this book,

Kim Clark:

congratulations on the book, and I can't wait since I've got a

Kim Clark:

sneak peek of it. I can tell you as communicators and content

Kim Clark:

creators, you gotta have this book, get it with the conscious

Kim Clark:

communicator, and you've got all the packages that you need to

Kim Clark:

apply to be the inclusive communicator that you see

Kim Clark:

yourself to be. You have everything that you need. And

Kim Clark:

you have a couple of people right here that have your backs.

Kim Clark:

All right, thank you so much for being with us.

Unknown:

In the plant my pleasure, genuinely

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