Shownotes
This week, we have a special guest: mountain bike world champion Samara Maxwell opens up about her struggles with an eating disorder and why she actually thinks it was good that her federation forced her to stop riding — or at least she can understand and agree with it now.
But first, the women’s sports highlights of the week:
- PWHL opening weekend: Vancouver packed in 14,958 fans to watch them take down Seattle—the highest-attended home game in PWHL history.
- NWSL Playoffs: Gotham FC’s Rose Lavelle delivered the lone winning goal. And Kelly confirms the hype in the Bay Area was real. Is it time for the NWSL to end neutral site championship games? Up the salary cap? Did Kelly regret not going to the fame?
- NCAA cross-country championships: Don't let the debate over international recruiting practices mar an amazing race from Doris Lemngole.
Then, we talk with New Zealand’s Samara “Sammie” Maxwell, the first Kiwi to win the UCI cross-country World Cup overall title.
Sammie, who has been open about her struggles with an eating disorder, was told to stop cycling by her federation and then left off the Olympic team because they didn't think she had fully recovered — a decision she appealed. She explains why she appealed the decision, but also why she now believes Cycling New Zealand made the right call. And what can be done to address eating disorders in cycling?
Then, of course, our Feisty Picks of the Week.
Episode resources:
- WADA considers banning Ozempic: https://velo.outsideonline.com/news/ozempic-weight-loss-drugs-ban-sports/
- Climbing introduces policy to combat eating disorders: https://www.climbing.com/news/ifsc-policy-combat-eating-disorders/
Episode timestamps:
- 00:23 - Shoutout to the PWHL & the NWSL Finals
- 18:05 - Kelly explains cross-country to Sara
- 22:36 - What is happening with NCAA recruitment?!
- 32:01 - Samara Maxwell on how she's recovering from an eating disorder and what she wants people to know
- 57:27 - What responsibility do coaches have?
- 01:10:51 - The future of GLP-1s in sports
Subscribe to The Feist, our Free Weekly Newsletter covering Women's Sports: https://feisty.co/feistnews/
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Transcripts
Feisties.
Speaker A:This is your favorite and feistiest women's sports show.
Speaker A:All the why behind what's happening in your favorite sports.
Speaker A:I'm Kelly Omera.
Speaker B:And I'm Sarah Gross.
Speaker B:And this week we're talking with mountain bike world champ Sammy Maxwell about her struggles with an eating disorder and why she's actually glad that her governing body made her stop cycling.
Speaker B:Kelly?
Speaker B:I. I don't know.
Speaker B:Okay, yes, we're talking about that.
Speaker B:We're also going to talk about who is responsible for the terrible culture of eating disorders that we have in so many sports.
Speaker B:Who should take responsibility and who should take responsibility.
Speaker A:You want to just solve that?
Speaker B:Yes, right now.
Speaker B:And how we need to proceed with solving that problem.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So Sammy had a lot of really interesting things to say, and so we'll definitely talk about that.
Speaker A:But first, obviously, highlights from this past week.
Speaker A:And I want to give a big shout out since we did a whole hockey episode last week, PWHL opening weekend, the first game between the two expansion team, Seattle and Vancouver that we talked about last week, they set a record for PWHL home attendance.
Speaker A:It was 14,958 people.
Speaker B:I appreciate the precision in the numbers.
Speaker B:I mean, on social media it was just 15,000.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:But I always feel like they're making that, like, whenever.
Speaker A:Because I've been to many sportsing events and they always put the number of attendees, you know, up on the.
Speaker A:I feel like they're making it up a little bit.
Speaker A:I think they are.
Speaker B:In the situations I've been in where I know the organizer of the event.
Speaker B:I can tell you that occasionally they make it up.
Speaker B:If they haven't been able to fully track who came in, who left, who sat in the seats, like who bought tickets versus who actually entered the arena or arena in this case.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:Unclear whether it's around 15,000.
Speaker B:Around 15,000 people, which was a full stadium.
Speaker B:They sold out all the tickets, which is the most important thing.
Speaker A:I think that's.
Speaker A:I. I will, I'm fine.
Speaker A:If you just count, like, ticket sales, whether or not somebody shows up is not on you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like if your kid got sick, you wanted to come watch the game.
Speaker B:Like, we can count you as a women's sports fan.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we posted a video.
Speaker A:Maya, who was on last week, was at that game and she covered it for the Ice Garden.
Speaker A:And of course in the comments we had all these men being like, well, now the attendance is going to go down.
Speaker A:Hahaha.
Speaker A:Like all women's leagues.
Speaker A:And you're like, actually, no Actually, no.
Speaker B:I think in particular in Vancouver, like Vancouver is here for their new pro women's leagues.
Speaker B:Like they showed up for the Vancouver Rise games, which is the NS or their soccer team.
Speaker B:And they will show up for the, for the hockey as well.
Speaker A:We had our big, our America's NWSL final here in the Bay Area like we were talking about.
Speaker A:And they also had a sellout which again is like a little like they sold out at 18,000.
Speaker A:And I've been to that stadium.
Speaker A:It's where the MLS team plays to.
Speaker A:I've been there for the US Women's National Team send off game.
Speaker A:And so my husband and I were like 18,000 disaster.
Speaker A:I think they put out like more bleachers for the men's game because the men's team actually sells out at 19 something.
Speaker A:Which again goes back to like, it's always a little tricky how many people you can fit in.
Speaker B:Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker B:Or do they fit more?
Speaker B:How do they add more bleachers?
Speaker A:There's like one side where you could like.
Speaker B:Oh, there is?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You could like add seating.
Speaker B:Okay, okay.
Speaker B:Anyway, I mean, 18,000, 19,000, whatever.
Speaker B:It's a full stadium, so it was a full stadium.
Speaker B:I know last week you were concerned that the Bay Area might not want to drive just as far as that far south, but it sounds like they did.
Speaker A:Well, it's an interesting.
Speaker A:Okay, we're gonna talk about the NWSL right now.
Speaker A:Because it was a new.
Speaker A:They have a number of growing pains at this point.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Obviously people still came out their final.
Speaker A:It's a neutral site final still, which means that they just pick a place.
Speaker A:And that doesn't necessarily mean those two teams are gonna play or, or that one of those two teams will be the team.
Speaker A:And so obviously in the Bay Area that's what happened.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:We had a DC team and a New York team playing in the Bay Area.
Speaker A:Like that's.
Speaker A:And so it was a lot of just like big names, like a lot of select.
Speaker A:Like you had Megan Rapinoe came out like all of the old soccer players came out like a lot of big, like soccer.
Speaker A:But it's like a little hard, of course, to fill a stadium with people when there aren't those team supporters here.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So I think in the future the NWSL is going to have to move away from neutral site games.
Speaker A:I understand why, like a growing league kind of needs to know in advance, but we got it.
Speaker A:We gotta, we gotta change this.
Speaker A:Like, it just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker A:It's not how you Blow up an attendance in a fan base, you know?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Okay, tell me.
Speaker B:So this is something I'm unaware of is like, how the stadiums get booked.
Speaker B:And if you're so in, say, in the men's leagues that have been going for a long time and are well established, Right.
Speaker B:And you have two teams in a final, but you don't know where who's gonna.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Like, which team.
Speaker B:Oh, sorry.
Speaker B:You're in the semis and you don't know which two teams are going to the finals.
Speaker B:How do you book the stadium ahead of time?
Speaker A:Well, I think the thing is, Sarah, that when we talk about these men's leagues, they have priority at those stadiums.
Speaker A:Nothing else is, like, sub booked for during the time of the.
Speaker A:Like, there is nothing else booked in the Chase center during the time of NBA playoffs.
Speaker A:Like, that's just not happening.
Speaker A:That's not.
Speaker A:Like, they don't book a concert or a.
Speaker A:Like what happened this year for WNBA playoffs.
Speaker A:It's a tennis match.
Speaker A:Like, that just doesn't happen.
Speaker A:Like, it is the NBA stadium.
Speaker A:The NBA stadium has priority.
Speaker A:And so the problem, I think, for these women, for the women's leagues that are up and coming is they don't own their own stadium.
Speaker A:And so they can't just be like.
Speaker A:Or not.
Speaker A:Some of the teams do, but not enough teams.
Speaker A:And not all of the teams have their own stadium that they have to book and schedule around, like the Ice Capades.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:That's what makes it ch.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, that's a problem.
Speaker A:That is a problem for future growth, right?
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:So how many times do we have to sell out the stadiums before we're able to book in advance?
Speaker B:I would like to know.
Speaker B:Stadium owners, let us know.
Speaker C:Let.
Speaker B:Let the women's leagues book the stadiums, even if it means a little risk that you might not have someone in there that night because your team loses.
Speaker A:So it was a big deal here, though.
Speaker A:It was all over the news here.
Speaker A:It was all over the radio.
Speaker A:It was like they were doing events in San Francisco.
Speaker A:I told you last week I wasn't gonna go because it is like an hour and a half drive and it's like an all day.
Speaker A:And that's not.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:And you were kind of like, don't you feel like you should go?
Speaker A:And I was thinking about this more over the weekend, Sarah.
Speaker A:I was like, well, Sarah, okay, sorry.
Speaker B:Just to be super clear, it's not like.
Speaker B:Don't you.
Speaker B:Because we.
Speaker B:We are in agreement that, like, watching women's sports is not like an eat Your broccoli kind of situation, which this is like, that's a direct quote from you.
Speaker B:So, like, you would never hear from me saying, kelly, you should go.
Speaker B:You need to.
Speaker B:You can watch at home.
Speaker A:I did watch it.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:But, yes, I.
Speaker A:You were basically like, why am I not like, oh, my God, Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, do you have.
Speaker B:I was wondering, like, as a child soccer player, whether you had an excitement over the fact that we now have a vibrant pro league for soccer.
Speaker A:And I was thinking about that while I was watching and while it was like, all this hype here over the weekend, I don't think it's the same as how you felt about the Northern Super League this year in Canada, because that was new and that was inaugural or like, the PWHL two years ago.
Speaker A:NWSL has been around for 13 years.
Speaker A:And before that, the league that came before the WPL was around for six years.
Speaker A:There was a women's pro soccer league when I was a kid that folded.
Speaker A:The women's pro basketball was around in the 80s.
Speaker A:There was a league that WNBA has been around since I was right.
Speaker A:Like, all these league.
Speaker A:Like, sometimes I think we forget not that, like, oh, women's sports have the same support in history that the men's do.
Speaker A:Like, the men have definitely gotten a head start.
Speaker A:But sometimes we forget, like, there have been leagues and there were trailblazers and there were, like, these pioneers.
Speaker A:And so it's.
Speaker A:To me, I have not had the, like, oh, my God, wow, we have a league now.
Speaker A:There's always been a league.
Speaker A:To me, there's like this.
Speaker A:Okay, now, how do.
Speaker A:Now it's like, okay, it's getting hyped on regular tv.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It's getting like, it was on, you know, just broadcast last night or two nights ago.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It's getting, like, regular, like, big fan tailgating.
Speaker A:Like, to me, it's like, it has to cross a line.
Speaker A:It's not just like, having the league and, like, are they getting some amount of money?
Speaker A:It's like, are they getting soccer star money?
Speaker A:Is this cracking the mainstream?
Speaker A:Is this making, you know, the local.
Speaker A:It was all over the local news this week.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Yeah, I see.
Speaker A:And it wasn't just like, yeah.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:And it wasn't just on the local news because, like, now the girls finally have someone to look up to.
Speaker A:There was some of that, but it was also a lot of big names, big players, that kind of thing.
Speaker B:It is starting to women's sports, and these leagues are starting to turn the corner of exactly that.
Speaker B:Of, like, it's actually it actually is mainstream.
Speaker B:We're actually talking about the sport, we're actually talking about the players.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:For better or for worse.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like we talked about, like, there's actually big corporate money starting to come in and it's not just like, oh, the little girls now have someone to look up.
Speaker B:But also the little girls do now have people to look up to, which I think is.
Speaker B:And I think there's a.
Speaker B:We're.
Speaker B:You and I are 10 years apart, you know, and I think there is a little bit of that.
Speaker A:There's a ch.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker A:There's a shift.
Speaker B:In my childhood, I was literally like stuck to the screen every four years.
Speaker B:Olympic Games was the place I could see women doing sports on TV and there wasn't much else.
Speaker A:Now the last time I went to, it's called PayPal Stadium, the soccer stadium down there for one of the send off games for the women's national team.
Speaker A:There are people like in line buying beer, arguing about, you know, whether, like, because we were about to get the Bay FC NWSL team and they were like arguing over who we should draft and who is right.
Speaker A:And that's when you're like, okay, we've cracked into.
Speaker A:This isn't just, yay, women, you can do sports.
Speaker A:This is like, she can't hack it in this league.
Speaker A:We need a forward, you know.
Speaker A:And also, I will say it has changed a lot from.
Speaker A:I remember when Alex Morgan got in trouble for like playing a drinking game after some big win.
Speaker A:And this year Rose Lavelle, who scored the game winning shot, of course was taking shots after because there was like a joke where her parents were going to take a shot for every goal she won.
Speaker A:And she was anyway, so.
Speaker A:So it has shifted.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:It's not just like, oh, wow, we can't do that in front of the, in front of the girls.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because we're supposed to be role models for little girls.
Speaker A:And I think Rose Lavelle is a role model.
Speaker A:I'm not saying, but I'm just saying that Tone has like, they can also still be soccer players and adults and have fun and celebrate.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Well, thank God, because meanwhile in Canada, hockey players could apparently get away with whatever they want.
Speaker B:Have full license to do for our conversation last week and like little boys and girls observe that.
Speaker B:Not that I think that adults, I feel like adults should be held to like the same standards across the board, you know.
Speaker A:Oh, men and women.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And just, you know, responsible human beings.
Speaker A:It was a good game though.
Speaker A:I was watching it and my husband walked in and was like, oh, is Trinity Rodman playing?
Speaker A:Is that.
Speaker A:It's like the only player he knows, like, currently, because all the big names have retired that he would know.
Speaker A:And unfortunately for the nwsl, Trinity Trini Rodman was playing, but she might be leaving for more money to the European leagues.
Speaker A:And this is a problem.
Speaker B:To the European leagues.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And this is a problem if that's the only player that you know the random average.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Band.
Speaker B:And this has to do with the salary caps.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So this is another, like, we're like, NWSL is at this point where, like, it has been around for a long time now, but it really has started to make a turning point in the last couple years of like, okay, it's a real league now.
Speaker A:You can make real money.
Speaker A:The players, it used to be heavily subsidized by US Soccer so that US players would have a place to develop.
Speaker A:And they paid a lot of that salary.
Speaker A:And that is no longer the case after that whole equal pay kind of settlement and like changing how US, the US Women's national team is compensated.
Speaker A:So now they're dealing with like, real, like league expansion issues.
Speaker A:And at the same time, the European leagues have decided they care about women and have put a lot of like, they have.
Speaker A:Obviously, European soccer is much bigger than U.S. soccer.
Speaker A:Their leagues are much more developed.
Speaker A:So now that they are funding like the women's half, there's way more money for players to make over there.
Speaker A:So we've already seen like, Naomi Girma leave, Lindsay, I want to say Horan, but whatever her married name is now.
Speaker A:So like a lot of the big players.
Speaker A:And so now you have like Alyssa Thompson left this year.
Speaker A:And now you're like, if Trinity Rodman leaves too, like, we can't lose all our big name players to these, like, mega deals.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Or we won't have like a league anymore.
Speaker A:Or we won't have a good league anymore.
Speaker A:It'll be unfortunate.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So is this a kind of wait and see what happens kind of situation?
Speaker B:Do we need?
Speaker B:I think this is like, what's the.
Speaker B:What's the.
Speaker B:How do we make.
Speaker A:They are literally thinking about changing the salary cap to keep Trinity Rodman because they're so worried about, like, they can't keep losing these, like, mega names.
Speaker A:It is right now it is a cap for the team.
Speaker A:It's like 3.5 million for a team.
Speaker A: million for the whole team by: Speaker A:So I don't know if they're just gonna like, make like, Start to think about how to make exceptions.
Speaker A:I, you know, I don't know what they're gonna do.
Speaker A:But the like literally the commissioner has weighed in and been like, we must keep her.
Speaker B:Which weirdly feels like the opposite to what the WNBA commissioner has been doing.
Speaker B:And at some point we're gonna have to circle back once we start getting.
Speaker B:It hasn't been in the news cycle lately, but once we start getting about the WNBA negotiations too.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think there's still.
Speaker A:There was an update or so like a week or so ago where they are reaching kind of a conclusion.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's interesting because obviously in the.
Speaker A:Again, like WNBA's what, 15 years further along than the NWSL.
Speaker A:So their salary caps are like the money we're talking and the fan size we're talking is like significant.
Speaker A:Like the TV deals are bigger because they had like a decade head start.
Speaker A:So it's kind of like.
Speaker A:Yeah, do we get to that point now?
Speaker B:Yes, it's.
Speaker B:It's a, it's interesting.
Speaker B:Like the, the bumpy road of the evolution of all of these leaks is.
Speaker B:Is fascinating.
Speaker B:And how.
Speaker B:And definitely how like they seem to follow similar, similar paths but in different eras.
Speaker A:Oh, definitely different eras.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So anyway, it was a good.
Speaker A:It was a good game.
Speaker A:Gotham FC came.
Speaker A:Came through which I, I mean this is the second time they've won the title when they were the lowest ranked team going into the playoffs.
Speaker A:So I feel like people should stop counting them out.
Speaker B:You know, that's wild.
Speaker B:And with.
Speaker B:And just one to zero, so.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, and it was.
Speaker A:I mean I.
Speaker A:You could say that's just because like all the teams are pretty parody, like pretty evenly matched.
Speaker A:And that's why you just get these like upsets because a lot of people were like, well, watches is the better team.
Speaker A:They have a better coach, they have better players.
Speaker A:But what's the, what's the saying?
Speaker A:Big players make big plays in big games and Rose Lavelle is gonna score in a big game.
Speaker B:So anyway, cool.
Speaker B:Any.
Speaker B:It was any very exciting not attending.
Speaker A:I was a little.
Speaker A:Well, I did text a friend a few weeks ago, ask who lives down there, asking if she wanted to go and she never got back.
Speaker A:She didn't.
Speaker A:Like she has a kid who's even younger than mine.
Speaker A:So we didn't.
Speaker A:But I was like, oh, that would have been.
Speaker A:That would have been.
Speaker B:Would have been nice to have made the trek.
Speaker A:It's a trek and it is not just me.
Speaker A:Like from a like a very specific Bay Area perspective, the team is trying to Figure out how to find a new facility, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Further north in the city.
Speaker B:Into the city, into the city.
Speaker B:To allow people with busy lives, like you, Kelly, to make.
Speaker B:To make it to their games.
Speaker A:I think it's also just like a vibe thing, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, yeah, you don't want to be on the outskirts of a.
Speaker A:Even if that is a lot of people down there.
Speaker A:Like, it's a.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:What does it feel like to the.
Speaker A:To the potential audience?
Speaker A:So before we move away from all.
Speaker A:Or we're going to move away from all our ball sports, our puck and ball sports, into our actual.
Speaker A:Our regular sports.
Speaker A:Sarah.
Speaker A:Which is like running, biking, moving a distance, the cross country national championships.
Speaker A:Moving a distance, a finish line, a start line, going in between.
Speaker B:Okay, so we have the NCAA cross.
Speaker A:Country championships or this past weekend, which a lot of people.
Speaker A:Like, I was thinking about this because, like, cross country is not a sport that like, anyone, like, you don't really, like, care about it outside of college.
Speaker A:I know there's this like, movement to get it into the Winter Olympics.
Speaker A:It's like, not gonna happen, whatever, but, like, it's just not as worth it.
Speaker B:Olympics.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's just not a sport that exists outside of college.
Speaker A:But it is very, very fun to do, like in high school and, you know, like to have that team camaraderie thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Honestly, it's something that I don't fully understand.
Speaker B:Like, I just associate with an ncaa.
Speaker A:Did you never.
Speaker B:You never ran cross country?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Well, I. I went to high school in the Middle east too.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:So we, I ran, you know, we had some kind of running.
Speaker B:Like, I don't know, in elementary school.
Speaker B:I got, like, recruited onto the running, but we mostly ran on roads.
Speaker B:Like, we did like 3k, 1k sometimes.
Speaker B:I mean, I was 9, so.
Speaker B:But not.
Speaker B:No, not cross country.
Speaker B:Like, my only experience of running cross country is, like, just running on trails or like a trail.
Speaker B:A trail race.
Speaker A:A trail race.
Speaker A:They have masters cross country.
Speaker A:Um, I've run it with like, the local team a few times, and I've run the.
Speaker A:They've done the masters national championship here in San Francisco.
Speaker A:And I've done that once or twice just because, I don't know, it's fun to come in, you know, 217th sometimes.
Speaker A:Like, it's just wild.
Speaker A:It's like so hard and so wild.
Speaker A:But obviously, yeah, it's not like a thing adults do a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And if you don't have a team, it's not as much Fun if you don't have like a group of people that you're doing it with.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I do feel like the pinnacle cross country is NCAA kind of @ this point.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So can you just explain as a Canadian here how the team element works?
Speaker B:Like how many people are on a team?
Speaker B:Is it like the times are cumulative?
Speaker B:Oh, can you drop?
Speaker A:You really don't.
Speaker B:I really don't know.
Speaker B:Can you drop.
Speaker B:Sorry for our Americans who were like, yeah, this is boring.
Speaker B:I know how this works.
Speaker B:But like, can one person drop off, like if someone has a shitty time.
Speaker A:Cross country, cross country, general rules across country and obviously like fairies.
Speaker A:But general rules across country are seven people on a team, top five score.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Lowest score wins.
Speaker A:And you just add up the places.
Speaker B:You add up the places, not the times.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So it's literally just the places.
Speaker A:So that's why, that's why it's like really fun and really dramatic.
Speaker A:Because like you care a lot about passing every single person.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You care about actually racing people versus having a, A personally fast time.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So times like don't matter at all.
Speaker A:I mean, they matter.
Speaker A:But when people tell you a time that somebody ran in a cross country meet, you're like, okay.
Speaker A:Because like you also don't know terrain.
Speaker A:Slow or fat.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're like, whatever.
Speaker A:But because places really matter.
Speaker A:Especially when you go into the team competition, you'll see like a whole team of girls, like you know, trying to work together, trying to, to like make sure they get as many of their athletes ahead of as many of the other team's athletes.
Speaker A:Cuz every place counts.
Speaker A:And the thing about your fifth se, sixth and seventh runners is they can still get in front of another team's runner.
Speaker C:Oh.
Speaker A:And push them further back place wise.
Speaker B:Oh, of course.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's why it's always like every person counts.
Speaker A:Every.
Speaker B:Okay, I'm so glad that we talked about this because I, I mean, obviously I know what it is.
Speaker B:I know that it's been in, I've known for long.
Speaker B:It's in teams.
Speaker B:I know that you're, you know, you're running not on the road, like I have a sense of it, but like the specifics, so.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So it's very dramatic.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then do you have, at the beginning of the race, Right.
Speaker B:Is there some point at which like you hit a trail head or a road, like where people are like jostling for position?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I would say like cross country is not typically run on like trails in the way I think you or I. Pacific Northwest think of trails.
Speaker A:Trails, like, they're not narrow.
Speaker A:Cross country is usually run on, like, golf courses type things.
Speaker A:Or like.
Speaker A:Like think of England.
Speaker A:Fell running.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hail, hay bales and mud and that kind of thing.
Speaker A:You know, fell running could actually be quite hilly.
Speaker B:It's deep.
Speaker A:Yes, it can.
Speaker A:But I was saying it's more similar to that than like, trail running, per se.
Speaker A:And so almost always you have to start in, like, a big field because you have 200 runners, like, all starting together.
Speaker A:And then it narrows down at the end of that.
Speaker A:Like, almost always, because.
Speaker A:Yeah, you have to kind of like, spread out so it gets very jostly, very, like, pushy.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Lots of drama, you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker A:So a lot of people love the NCAA because of this, because of everything just right.
Speaker A:Because it's like, weirdly high stakes for people who are not going to be like, that fourth and fifth runner.
Speaker A:Like, they're not going to be pro runners.
Speaker A:They're not.
Speaker A:You may never hear, like.
Speaker A:But they, like, this is the pinnacle of their, like, athletic, which is a big deal.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, it's a really hard meet to make as a team.
Speaker A:It's really hard meet to make as an individual.
Speaker A:It's kind of like how, like the Olympic marathon trials are, like, really exciting because you have 200, 300 runners that are running fast.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I also.
Speaker B:Honestly, anything making running into a team sport, I'm.
Speaker B:I'm so here for.
Speaker B:Because it's way more fun.
Speaker A:So it was.
Speaker A:And the other big thing this year was that we had the defending champ.
Speaker A:Doris Lemongold, who run for Alabama, was from Kenya.
Speaker A:And she.
Speaker A:I mean, she is from Kenya, but she has race.
Speaker A:She's like, in her third or fourth year at Alabama.
Speaker A:She kind of developed up through that.
Speaker A:And she's a little older.
Speaker A:She's 23, but she certainly isn't, like, aged.
Speaker A:Aged.
Speaker A:Yeah, aged.
Speaker A:She also.
Speaker A:She also is good enough that she raced like the world championships, the regular world championships for track in September and placed like, fifth in the steeplechase.
Speaker A:And then at the same time, you had this freshman that everyone's been eyeing from BYU who set like, all these national records as a high schooler who's like 18 or 19, whatever, and won everything leading in, but they hadn't gone head to head yet.
Speaker A:So that was like, who's gonna win?
Speaker A:And Doris.
Speaker A:Doris won.
Speaker A:I think she.
Speaker A:I like.
Speaker A:I really like her.
Speaker A:I think she works really hard.
Speaker A:I think there has it kind of instigated.
Speaker A:Not instigated, because there's A debate been going on for a long time about how many runners not from the US Are in NCAA is how many colleges recruit.
Speaker A:And I think it's coming to a head because ncaa, it's coming to a head because some people said some like, vaguely racist things over the weekend, but it's also coming to a head because NCAA is wildly changing, like the landscape with like, nil deals and with like, how much money can be made.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so now, so it's just like.
Speaker A:So now it's really, really tempting for people who maybe like a, you know, an NCAA scholarship was like a good deal before, but wasn't great.
Speaker A:Now there's like more money to be made.
Speaker A:So it's obviously like that's a bigger incentive.
Speaker A:And so now there's also college coaches who are paying recruitment companies to go to Kenya or Ethiopia and find kids, kids to recruit.
Speaker A:And sometimes they're recruiting kids, I'm saying quotes who are like 25 or 26 or 28, who are like actually basically semi professional runners.
Speaker A:And then that's creating this distortion coming out of Kenya where you are having.
Speaker A:I mean, like, there were.
Speaker A:There has been instances of like, people dropping dead at some of these trials in Kenya to try and make a college team because that, because now the incentives are all distorted.
Speaker A:So anyway, this is coming to like a head now because it's like not ahead, but it's coming up over and over because it's like, well, what is the point of NCAA?
Speaker A:Is it to take 17, 16, 18 year olds and teach them skills and develop them?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Or is it to, like, win titles however you can?
Speaker B:Yeah, and it's also, I don't know, as a Canadian, it's.
Speaker B:All the NCAA systems always seemed a little bit weird because it's like, it's tied to so closely, obviously, to like actually getting an education.
Speaker B:So it always begs the question, like, why are you at university in the first place and what are we prioritizing?
Speaker B:And I don't know, it's just, it's a lot of money for young kids, a lot of attention.
Speaker B:These things can sometimes go wrong if not managed well.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I think that's part of the issue right now is like, I am 100 on board with like, the athletes like football, basketball, the athletes that a university system was basically just using and spitting out and propping up like a business on, like, that was a business and they were using like free labor, essentially.
Speaker A:Like, I think they should get paid.
Speaker A:But then I think some of the things you're saying where like, these are 17 year olds and 18 year olds and like that some of our sports, some of the smaller sports kind of avoided those issues because no one was paying attention to them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then they got a nice education.
Speaker B:I also get.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I also kind of get the questions around.
Speaker B:So now you're sending recruiters out globally, recruiting people from.
Speaker B:Recruiting people in their mid-20s, you know, and, and do those, are those people worthy of a scholarship and free education?
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:You know, but like it's interesting.
Speaker B:Like, okay, what are the actual parameters on this?
Speaker B:You know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think if you know, you wanted to start being like, what is the problem?
Speaker A:I don't think it's foreign athletes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I don't think that's.
Speaker A:I think like probably it's recruitment methods.
Speaker A:Probably we need to like it's also apparently like, because the stakes are higher and higher and higher, it's pushed like more and more people into like doping arena or like taking things they should.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I don't think we want like 21 year olds thinking about that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I think like if you want to regulate, I think that's where you will need to like start looking at is like what are the incentives?
Speaker A:How are we pushing?
Speaker B:Well, you start to have all the problems that pro sports have.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Because you are.
Speaker A:Which is approach.
Speaker A:Which is honestly my issue right now with like what college football has turned into is it's just semi professional football.
Speaker A:Like and then what is this really about?
Speaker A:And then why am I watching semi professional football on tv?
Speaker A:Doesn't make sense.
Speaker B:Why am I watching semi professional men?
Speaker B:I mean, just going back a few years before we even begin to put the women on tv.
Speaker B:Which is like my point last time about that's what annoyed me so much about the junior Canada's junior hockey team being everywhere in the pubs when I first came back to Canada and it's like, but wait, I could think of several other non junior fully professional women's teams who I would love to see on this.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I can see how you would feel that way.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, no, I think the college thing is a mess and there's maybe we'll have like Victoria Jackson come on and talk with us in the spring who's like an expert on this.
Speaker A:Because the college thing is a mess.
Speaker A:The US college system is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think this is really worth unpacking.
Speaker B:So let's get that.
Speaker A:And this.
Speaker A:And this specific cross country problem is just, you know, a side problem of the bigger.
Speaker A:Yeah, bigger college problem.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker A:I was joking that we Were going to transition to our big topic of the week by saying, speaking of eating.
Speaker B:Disorders, which sort of comes with the territory and running and.
Speaker B:And some other sports, and I think we're going to talk about all of that.
Speaker B:But you interviewed Samara Maxwell from New Zealand.
Speaker A:Yeah, so I give a big shout out.
Speaker A:Sammy Maxwell actually emailed us after we talked about her in the Feist newsletter, which we send out every week with this podcast.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker B:Thank you for emailing us, Sammy.
Speaker A:And she was like, I'd love to come on and chat.
Speaker A:And so if you don't know Sammy Maxwell, she won the Cross Country World Series, sorry, Cross Country Mountain Bike World Series.
Speaker A:This past year.
Speaker A:She took eighth at the Olympics.
Speaker A:Um, but she made a bunch of news last year because her governing body in New Zealand did not name her to the Olympic team because they said she had not made enough progress on overcoming her eating disorder and it would be unhealthy to name her to the Olympic team.
Speaker A:And then she appealed because she said they, like, just had some of their number.
Speaker A:Like, they just, like, didn't have their facts right.
Speaker A:Like, actually she had made X progress and they had, like, mixed up their numbers.
Speaker A:Yeah, but it kind of.
Speaker A:So anyway, she ended up getting names.
Speaker A:She, like, filed this whole appeal.
Speaker A:The governing.
Speaker A:The tribunal or whatever, they have ruled in her favor, but end up opening this kind of whole debate about what is the role of a governing body to, like, stop an athlete or not.
Speaker A:And so that was what she wanted to talk about.
Speaker A:She wanted to talk about kind of dealing with disordered eating and cycling.
Speaker A:And I thought it was like a really interesting conversation.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:All right, welcome.
Speaker A:Sarah Maxwell.
Speaker A:Sammy, you are the first New Zealand cyclist to ever win a world overall mountain bike series title.
Speaker A:Is that right?
Speaker A:Did I get that right?
Speaker C:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:And I know you talked a little bit about, like, this year doing that and the stress of, you know, coming from, like, a disordered eating background, it was like, hard to balance.
Speaker A:How did you manage to kind of, you know, have such an amazing performance and balance all that.
Speaker A:That stress and all those issues?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think I was really lucky just in terms of being able to get specialist support.
Speaker C:So I know New Zealand, there's a few kind of specialist clinics and it's really, really difficult to one get access to them.
Speaker C:And there are a lot in the private sector, so.
Speaker C:So it's kind of expensive.
Speaker C:Some of them are in the public sector as well.
Speaker C:But I think I went through a bit more of a private route and I. I got some really good support from a specialist psychologist and nutritionist and endocrinologist while I was overseas.
Speaker C:But I think one of the main things that they stressed really important for me was that, like, what we're doing while I'm racing and while I'm overseas is not full therapy.
Speaker C:It was more just maintaining a state of health so that I didn't deteriorate throughout the season.
Speaker C:But I definitely found it super engaging, and it was really cool for me to kind of be able to get that support and see, wow.
Speaker C:Because of this, I was able to maintain form.
Speaker C:I was able to stay strong, but I was also really aware of those aspects and those.
Speaker C:Those areas of my training that I was being held back in my performance on race day, being held back by these, like, eating disorder thoughts.
Speaker C:So I came.
Speaker C:Came to the end of the season, and they were kind of like, you know, like, what we did wasn't therapy.
Speaker C:It helped you maintain.
Speaker C:What are you thinking?
Speaker C:And I'm like, I'm ready to kind of go all in.
Speaker C:Go all in therapy and stuff, which is.
Speaker A:Oh, so, like, now you're kind of home and so you're doing, like, more.
Speaker A:More therapy.
Speaker C:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's really, I think, something I had to go through.
Speaker C:And if anyone's struggling out there, there's a book that my psychologist recommended called by Tabitha Farah.
Speaker C:I don't know her last name, but it's called My Fear of Weight Gain and why I have It.
Speaker C:And it really just explores, like, the basics of eating disorders.
Speaker C:I think it's like 40 pages.
Speaker C:I literally read it while we.
Speaker C:While I read it on my Kindle while we were driving to, like, the Back from Brazil or something like that, like, super quick.
Speaker C:And after reading that book, I realized, like, there's still so far to go with the cycling culture around eating food.
Speaker C:And as long as I'm, like, surrounded by this environment of high competitive, kind of disordered behaviors, I'll never truly recover.
Speaker C:So that's why you.
Speaker C:That's why you really focus on it.
Speaker C:That's what I'm focusing on it in the off season while I'm out of that environment and really able to kind of get back to what really matters to me and not have those external pressures coming in and feeding into me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker A:I mean, maybe you can tell me a little bit about your history of how you, you know, ended up here, but, like, what is it about the cycling culture that you think is still just.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:I want to say bad, but, you know.
Speaker C:Yeah, no, it's.
Speaker C:It's Stuck on habits.
Speaker C:I think it's the cycling culture.
Speaker C:It's stuck on habits and tradition.
Speaker C:And I think that there hasn't.
Speaker C:It's changing for sure.
Speaker C:Now we're starting to look at what we're doing and questioning why, right?
Speaker C:Why did we used to go for 10 hour bike rides or train for 10 hours a day and have, you know, like a few handfuls of banana, of nuts or bananas?
Speaker C:Like that's not enough.
Speaker C:You know, why, why do we as women try to train like men?
Speaker C:Because that was what, you know, was happening, but it's not true.
Speaker C:So I think in terms of like learning the cycling culture is starting to change and question why we're doing things.
Speaker C:But, but I think the biggest difference is that for me, like behaviors that are quote unquote disordered, really, like avoidance of fat or over compulsive exercise.
Speaker C:The behaviors in of themselves yet they're problematic, but the reason I do those behaviors is the main problem.
Speaker C:Okay, so for my teammate, for example, just say, just say we sat down for dinner one night and they cut around the egg yolk or something because they maybe didn't want lots of fats the night before a race or something like that.
Speaker C:Or maybe they were having avocados and walnuts and avocado seeds and lots of other fats and salmon and they're really happy and they're like, actually you like, the purpose of this egg for this meal in particular is some protein.
Speaker C:I have lots of other fats.
Speaker C:Maybe I don't need that one.
Speaker C:That behavior for them is not disordered.
Speaker C:It's educated and it's realistic and it's informed of decisions and they're not avoiding something.
Speaker C:The behavior's not driven out of fear.
Speaker C:But for me and my mentality, I would see that behavior and my brain would click onto that and go, see, that is something you need to avoid.
Speaker C:No matter how, no matter how much you sit here and do therapy and tell yourself, you know, fats and weight gain isn't something I need to fear.
Speaker C:If I'm still seeing those behaviors, my brain will catch onto them.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:The brain is the master of seeing what it wants to see.
Speaker C:And I think that that's the difference is that for me, my brain can't logically sit down and rationalize that those behaviors aren't driven by fear in those people.
Speaker C:And it just kind of cottons onto that and then runs with it.
Speaker A:And where do you think?
Speaker A:I mean, you're still very young, right?
Speaker A:So where do you think this came from?
Speaker A:I mean, do you have certain coaches or I don't know the cycling culture in New Zealand super well.
Speaker C:I was, yeah.
Speaker C:So the cycling culture in New Zealand is so.
Speaker C:I'm so lucky.
Speaker C:I think for New Zealanders we dream of just getting to go overseas.
Speaker C:You know, we don't dream of going pro, we don't dream of winning World Cups.
Speaker C:It's always just like.
Speaker C:And in that regard I think I was blessed in the fact that I was always such, like, just get to the next goal.
Speaker C:I wasn't caught up in like, I have to do this so that I can get on a pro team, so that I can win this race, so that I can get seen, so that I can earn a salary, so that like it was just win this race, have fun.
Speaker C:You know, like a lot of staying in the cycling community and locally and club races, you know, like Wednesday worlds and stuff like that.
Speaker C:So, you know, the cycling culture in New Zealand is not like that at all.
Speaker C:It's not pressure driven for me.
Speaker C:I think that's, I think that's anyone with an eating disorder, it's the million dollar question and I think no one ever really gets a real answer.
Speaker C:It's not like, you know, it's not like you get Covid because you've got virus.
Speaker C:Like I think it's just an unlucky mixture of my personality and then normally there's some sort of not traumatic event but just hardship or something.
Speaker C:So for me, when I was quite young, I did like a boot camp that was, you know, really cool and it drove leadership and opportunities and stuff like that.
Speaker C:But in hindsight for me it came during a time when I was, when I was just getting introduced to training properly and it was just too much and all of a sudden I just lost heaps of weight really quickly.
Speaker C:And when you combine that with a malnourished brain.
Speaker C:And then I started getting that athlete identity and my body really cottoned onto that and said, this is what you're respected for, this is what you need to do, this is what you need to push for.
Speaker C:It all just kind of amount like accumulates into just a big ugly mess.
Speaker A:And then okay, just kind of spirals.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And there's a few genes in the brain and, and well, genes in your body which lead to genetic like predispositions I guess.
Speaker C:And sometimes it is just, you lose a lot of weight, your brain becomes malnourished and your neurons rewire and that's the way it is.
Speaker C:You know, all of a sudden you do start really getting a fear response from from thought of food and stuff.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:And then obviously, I mean, you're telling me kind of about this now, but it kind of really came, I think, like to the public when you went through the whole Olympics trial, right.
Speaker A:So you took off four months, kind of in the lead up to the Olympics, something like that.
Speaker A:Three months to kind of go through recovery.
Speaker A:And then the governing body in New Zealand said, you know, you weren't healthy enough to be appointed to the Olympic team.
Speaker A:Can you, like, how did you find.
Speaker A:Yeah, was that like, how did they tell you that?
Speaker A:Like, I, I don't know how I would react if somebody told me I wasn't.
Speaker C:Yeah, it was, I was pretty upset.
Speaker C:So I think it was around this time last year.
Speaker C:I think it must have been.
Speaker C:No, like this time and the year before the Olympics.
Speaker C:I hadn't gone to the Olympics and we were just getting to the Olympics.
Speaker C:I'd come back and I'd won under 23 Worlds and all of a sudden, like, up until they're under 23 worlds, I.
Speaker C:Mountain biking's are really not popular or like not.
Speaker C:Not well funded sport.
Speaker C:It's the same with everywhere you go, right?
Speaker C:You get funding for Olympic medals.
Speaker C:And up until this point, New Zealand's had like maybe one middle contender, but it's not, it's one race.
Speaker C:We have one athlete.
Speaker C:We don't get funding.
Speaker C:So I get back from under 23 worlds, which I've won, and it was the first year that mountain biking and cycling New Zealand were like, we're gonna give you some funds, we're gonna help fund you from the government and so awesome.
Speaker C:You know, like, I thought everything was good.
Speaker C:And they had a meeting and they sat me down and they said, Sammy, like, we've done your medical exams.
Speaker C:Your hormone profile is like terrible.
Speaker C:Your bone density is shocking.
Speaker C:Your, you know, your BMI is not good.
Speaker C:We, we don't care about the results.
Speaker C:You're 20 and you're on a path to self destruction kind of thing.
Speaker C:And I was like, okay, cool.
Speaker C:Like, I didn't really.
Speaker C:I said, oh, I'll coordinate.
Speaker C:And they said, we want you to start seeing specialists.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:For your eating disorder.
Speaker C:Oh.
Speaker C:Because also before that I had had meetings with nutritionists and the doctors and the psychologists and they all had a meeting and they went like, this isn't a normal athlete.
Speaker C:We're not equipped for this.
Speaker C:We can't do this.
Speaker C:And so I, at that stage, I was just like playing ball to go to the Olympics, if I'm being honest.
Speaker C:I was Just like, yeah, sure, I'll see who I have to see, I'll tick the boxes, whatever.
Speaker C:And so I go along and they told me, you know, a few months off the bike at least.
Speaker C:So I had a meeting with my manager in early January and I said, like, we can't, we can't do Brazil kind of thing, those early World cup races and I've got to stay home and kind of hopefully get into the Olympics.
Speaker C:And we.
Speaker C:It was partly my fault, partly just no one really thought about it, but because I took those Brazil World Cups off and the early ones, Nova Mesto, yeah, whatever one was after that one, I didn't actually get any races for the qualifying period.
Speaker C:So then because of the Cycling New Zealand, like, rules and regulations, they couldn't select me.
Speaker C:So if I had gone overseas and raced, then I wasn't complying to the health requirements.
Speaker C:So I was like, damned if I do, damned if I don't.
Speaker C:And so then I had to apply for a special exemption because I didn't have any results in that qualification period.
Speaker C:And I, I understand why Cycling New Zealand did it, but I applied for a special exemption and they said like, no, at that stage I had been improving, my bone density was better and my hormone profile was better, but it still wasn't actually good.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Sure, sure.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so they were like, we're not willing to take the risk kind of thing.
Speaker C:And I was like, cool.
Speaker C:Like, I understand that.
Speaker C:And the specialists were still like, Sammy still has work to do.
Speaker C:We want her to stay back in nz.
Speaker C:So I can see why SAC New Zealand at that stage isn't gonna put like, athlete, you see an athlete playing rugby and she'll get concussed and she'll get up and she'll go, I want to play, I'm good.
Speaker C:Let me go back on court.
Speaker C:So I understand why New Zealand was apprehensive of that.
Speaker C:And they, they said no.
Speaker C:Like, at this stage we're listening to the medical professionals who say, you're not ready, you're not ready to race, you're not mentally fit to race.
Speaker C:And I said, cool.
Speaker C:Like, I know my body, I know the work I've done and I, I just need to do this kind of thing.
Speaker C:So I, I went through the sports tribunal and we re evaluated my health results and there were some mistakes that had been made in the statement.
Speaker C:So like, my previous bone density was mixed with my current one.
Speaker C:So then because it had improved, they didn't say within saying it had decreased and stuff like that.
Speaker C:So that was, you know, a bit of that.
Speaker C:And then there was also just a bit of.
Speaker C:I think they acknowledged the sports tribunal when they, when they passed my case, they said that there really needs to be a bit more thought around the way we treat anorexia recovery.
Speaker C:I think because mountain biking is quite different from track cycling, which is where a lot of Cycling New Zealand Federation come from.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Eating disorders are not common there at all.
Speaker C:And I think that they see the word anorexia and they were just scared because it's like New Zealand had gone through a big cultural change and it's a really safe and inclusive environment.
Speaker C:And I think they just really wanted to make sure that they were sticking with their values of putting athletes health first, even if it means having to stop their dream.
Speaker C:They didn't want to walk away at the end of the day and go, do we just.
Speaker C:Did we just risk Sammy's career?
Speaker C:But yeah, I'm glad I, I'm glad I went to the Olympics, but I'm also really glad that Cycle New Zealand stepped in because without them I wouldn't have my psychologist I have today, I wouldn't have my endocrinologist, I wouldn't have that team around me.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm really just grateful for it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I was going to ask you, what do you.
Speaker A:Because obviously there's been more and more talk about it, like climbing is implemented a similar type of, like, if you don't hit certain health markers, you can't compete.
Speaker A:There's been a lot of talk about if, you know, the UCI should do something similar for the world.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you think, like, how do you feel about that?
Speaker A:Do you think these like, governing bodies should step in like they did in your case, or.
Speaker C:I think, I think, honestly a yes.
Speaker C:Because of the journey that I've had and the way I've gone through, I've had success.
Speaker C:But I think my mentality around it's also really changed this year.
Speaker C:After my success, I sat down with my psychologist and I said, oh, you know, like, I've spent a few weeks back home, like, digesting the season.
Speaker C:And it was strange because I realized I'd come to this point where if someone had asked me, like, are you proud of your results?
Speaker C:I wouldn't, like, I'm not, not proud of my results, but it's not something I'm proud of.
Speaker C:To me, I have like a really scientific mind frame.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I'm like, my training and my, my results is just a physiological outcome of my training.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That's that's all my fitness is.
Speaker C:And at the end of the day, I can't stand at that finish line at that interview and say, the decisions I took to get to that training mind frame or the decisions I chose throughout that journey were 100% me and aligned to my values.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like, I know that there were some decisions that I made that were driven out of fear from my anorexia.
Speaker C:And for example, when we were at the altitude camp, I completely.
Speaker C:I completely botched the first two weeks because my body just wouldn't, like, my brain wouldn't let me rest.
Speaker C:I needed to burn calories, I needed to keep moving.
Speaker C:You know, I, I needed to push X amount of watts so that I maintained this so that I could eat this many grams of carbs per hour.
Speaker C:I needed to be out on the bike.
Speaker C:So I was preoccupying my brain so I wasn't being consumed by thoughts, thoughts of food or my next meal.
Speaker C:You know, like, so much of that behavior was driven out of fear for my anorexia.
Speaker C:So I, So I said to my.
Speaker C:My psychologist, yeah, like, these results are great, but I, the, the only thing that I care about now is that I've gone through this process and I realize if I can't stand at the finish line at the end of the day and say, that's 100% me.
Speaker C:Like, me.
Speaker C:And I chose my values, you know, my community, like, valuing challenge and, like, integrity, like, those are really important to me.
Speaker C:And if I can't stand at the finish line and say that I honoured those values in getting to this process, what's the point?
Speaker C:So, for me, my next biggest goal is not, you know, it's not to win the Olympics or something, it's to just get back to a point where I can say, like, the success is me.
Speaker C:That hasn't been for my anorexia.
Speaker C:And, and I got here by facing that challenge by doing something really hard.
Speaker C:You know, I've done it with an eating disorder.
Speaker C:Now my challenge is do I.
Speaker C:Can I do it without?
Speaker C:And that's, like, exciting and motivating for me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that's really interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, you seem like you have a very good, like, view on it now.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It seems, it's interesting that, you know, without cycling New Zealand stepping in, you might not have necessarily gone down this path.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker C:But I. Yeah, and I'm.
Speaker C:But it's like.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Going back to that question of, like, do.
Speaker C:Do the UCI need to step in?
Speaker C:I think, I think yes, Because I think, you know, I'm lucky to have got that success and been given that hindsight.
Speaker C:But until then, you're just can.
Speaker C:You're stuck in this, like, tunnel vision of just like, I need to get there to prove I'm to the top.
Speaker C:And sometimes you need someone from that external point of view to be like, this isn't healthy.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But then it also, in saying that athletes like, we are the ones that are setting the benchmark, we're the ones that are settling, sitting, the normalization.
Speaker C:It's like if I'm.
Speaker C:If all we talk about is power to weight and someone's willing to sacrifice their health, then that sets the new standard, you know.
Speaker C:But if we all go to actually power to weights, important, it's sport, but we're not like, we choose to not sacrifice our health for that, then I think that's also up to the athletes as well, you know, to, to choose if we're going to value, like, what's important to us in our health and making sure the next generation of riders is just as strong and as healthy as we are, that's up to us athletes to do as well.
Speaker C:Sometimes you don't, sometimes you don't need the federation to step in if all the athletes can see the problem.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:Which I think is obviously, like, the debate that's sort of happening right now.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In cycling.
Speaker A:And what do I mean when I'm, I'm sure a lot of people who are going through, like, similar issues have reached out to you, especially, like, younger athletes.
Speaker A:What do you tell them?
Speaker A:Like, what do you tell someone who's struggling with, you know, disordered eating and, yeah, trying to be a top athlete?
Speaker C:I think this year's really changed.
Speaker C:Like, what, what I would say and what I say is get specialist support and stop biking for a bit.
Speaker C:Like, honestly, walk away from the sport or for.
Speaker C:For a year, go see a specialist and, and get it done and get it done early.
Speaker C:Get it done well, you know, measure twice, cut once, do it properly, because otherwise you get to my age and that, like, this is a bit.
Speaker C:Ah, your, your followers will love this, but I did like a skit, a scan of my uterus, and my uterus was like, so small they couldn't even see my ovaries on the scan.
Speaker C:And they're like, Sammy, like, it doesn't even matter if you start taking the pill and you start ovulating.
Speaker C:Like, your uterus literally can't hold a child kind of thing.
Speaker C:So for me, I was like, oh.
Speaker C:Like, oh, that's fine, I don't want a kid.
Speaker C:But now I'm like, well, Sammy, when she's 30 or 40 and doesn't have cycling, like, maybe that'll impact her.
Speaker C:So what I say is just like, get it done when you're young.
Speaker C:Fix the problem.
Speaker C:The, the, the brain's incredible.
Speaker C:And the longer, the longer you spend in those thoughts, the stronger those neural pathways are going to be, the harder it is to fix it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:You're in a hole.
Speaker C:Stop digging.
Speaker C:You're in a hole.
Speaker C:It's as simple as that.
Speaker C:You're in a hole.
Speaker C:Stop digging.
Speaker A:Get a ladder.
Speaker C:Right, yeah.
Speaker A:Anything else that you would want to tell.
Speaker A:I mean, that's really good advice.
Speaker A:Right, but anything else you'd want to tell people kind of, you wish they knew, like, or that they misunderstand about, about kind of training with.
Speaker C:I think just, you don't know what you're missing until you don't have it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:I used to think it was normal to wake up at 3am and literally be like, starving.
Speaker C:I used to think it was like, normal to be, like, scared while I was riding, to reach into my pocket and get something out to eat in front of someone.
Speaker C:And like, those, those I didn't realize, like, until I started talking to my psychologist and he was like, it's not normal.
Speaker C:Like, you shouldn't be terrified to eat while you're exercising in front of your friends kind of thing, or you shouldn't be waking up in the middle of the night starving.
Speaker C:You know, I used to come back from a bike ride with my dad and we'd had a lovely day and as we approach the car park, I'd be terrified and just like, really angry all of a sudden because, oh, no, now we have to get back and now I have to start thinking about food again.
Speaker C:You know, that's not normal.
Speaker C:You should be getting back from a bike ride and being like, like, ready to eat.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:And soaking in your endorphins and just like, enjoying the day with your parents, you're friends, or your family or whoever it is.
Speaker C:Like, not, not just like, oh, shoot, now it's food.
Speaker C:Or, you know, so.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, thank you so much for chatting with me about all this.
Speaker A:I know it's complicated, but it's.
Speaker A:It's really good to hear from somebody who's kind of gone through it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:And thank you for having me be able to share my perspective.
Speaker C:I'm just one person and everyone has different opinions, but that's just what I think.
Speaker C:And I'm really blessed to be in a place where I can share it and have shared what I've learned.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Thanks.
Speaker A:Okay, so at the end, when she was talking about how she had, you know, I don't know what the word is, but, like, her ovaries and her uterus had, like, shrunk up.
Speaker B:That was crazy.
Speaker A:I will tell you, when I was at that Stanford conference, they talked.
Speaker A:They had done in mice a bunch of testing on, you know, calorie.
Speaker A:And it happens in mice, too.
Speaker A:They, like, in the wit, like, the men have a bigger difference in something else.
Speaker B:Like the men or the male mice.
Speaker B:Mice.
Speaker A:The male mice have a bigger.
Speaker A:Have a reaction more in, like, bone, whatever.
Speaker A:But the women, they're.
Speaker A:They have a much.
Speaker A:The women.
Speaker A:The female mice have a much bigger reaction in their reproductive organs.
Speaker A:So I was like, oh, man, that is wild.
Speaker B:I have never, you know, and as a triathlete, someone who comes from endurance for.
Speaker B:I've known a lot of folks who have suffered from reds and lea, right?
Speaker B:Like, even with or without eating disorders.
Speaker B:And they.
Speaker B:I've never heard anyone talk about a womb.
Speaker B:Uterus.
Speaker B:Womb.
Speaker B: What is this, like,: Speaker B:A uterus shrinking.
Speaker B:I guess, you know, that we have, like, menstrual disruption sometimes from.
Speaker B:From not eating enough, but.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's why when she said that, I was like, no, I actually was just listening.
Speaker A:Like, the scientist people were just talking about this.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Real thing.
Speaker B:So I have to say, though, Kelly, while, okay, I absolutely loved Sammy's attitude about her entire process, I love how positive she is, how much she, like, accepted the things that were coming at her from the federation.
Speaker B:She appealed the decision, you know, was granted the ability to race in the Olympics based on that appeal.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like is glad she said at the end, like, she was glad that her.
Speaker B:The federation had made the decisions they had because it helped her with her own personal trajectory.
Speaker B:And I love all of those things.
Speaker B:And to say in.
Speaker B:During the entire interview, I felt like what I really want is folks like the federations in some of these sports to start taking responsibility for their part in creating the culture that.
Speaker B:Around these eating disorders.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And, like, not just.
Speaker B:And I don't think.
Speaker B:I think that's why I said reds, red S, however we pronounce it now, R, E, D S. And lea can happen in endurance sports just with athletes who are following protocols given to them by their coaches.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And there has been.
Speaker B:It's an entire.
Speaker B:I don't know, like, even the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:What do you.
Speaker B:That she told A story about.
Speaker B:At one of her teammates who was.
Speaker B:Who was cutting out the yolks of the eggs.
Speaker B:And then she called that.
Speaker B:Oh, yes.
Speaker B:This was.
Speaker B:If they're doing it without.
Speaker B:If they're doing it without kind of perseverating on it.
Speaker B:I forget what exactly what her words were, but these are.
Speaker B:These are good decisions for your performance.
Speaker B:And I kind of thought.
Speaker B:Are they?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think what she was saying is, like, obviously there's, like, you know, some people, like, avoid fiber before a race because they don't want to, like shit, right?
Speaker A:Like, there's things that you could do from an eating perspective that you're doing them for, like, perfectly logical, reasonable reasons.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:But then there's also, like, things you could do that you think are logical, reasonable, but actually they're, like, slightly disordered eating.
Speaker A:And then there's things.
Speaker A:And then that can take it, like.
Speaker A:And then there's things you could do that are.
Speaker A:Actually, you're taking this, like, a step past where you're like, well, that's.
Speaker A:And it's just.
Speaker A:And obviously, like, you don't know what's going on in someone's head.
Speaker A:It was her point.
Speaker A:Yes, but to your point, like, if teams are telling athletes like, well, don't eat the yolk in your eggs, and then they're all doing that because they're being told that because you don't want to get too.
Speaker A:You don't want to get too fat, that it creates this, like, culture that it's not necessarily that individual's fault or something, that they went down, that they did what they were told to do.
Speaker B:So I think what I'm objecting to is the idea that it's.
Speaker B:There's a systemic problem in that we've.
Speaker B:With.
Speaker B:Especially with the women athletes, we've used a male, like a male kind of model of how to eat and perform, et cetera, that's based on power to weight ratio.
Speaker B:Now, if we're talking about cycling, right, where we're encouraging female athletes, like, based on, you know, going back years.
Speaker B:I mean, now we're kind of smartening up, but, like, going back a few years, based on calories in, calories out, lose as much weight as possible.
Speaker B:Like, we've both been part of these types of systems, and then it's like, in order to change to a system that puts athlete health first, right, you have to change on the level of, like, the federation itself, I think, needs to take responsibility.
Speaker B:Like I said, I think you need to look at the coaches.
Speaker B:Everyone needs to be trained in this Fully and to put it onto the athlete, right.
Speaker B:And then be like, oh, this athlete, this athlete has a problem.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Quote, I'm doing air quotes people can't see and then put it back onto the female athletes to be like, okay, now it's your.
Speaker B:Like ultimately they are empowered to help themselves right through what can be a difficult process.
Speaker B:Coming out of an eating disorder or coming out of red s. But, but sure, but that's only part of like you can't address the entire problem by just focusing on the female athletes and telling them to change or focusing on any athlete that has this has an eating disorder or a red ass.
Speaker B:Like you have to actually systemically deal with the entire problem as it existed.
Speaker B:Like I had coaches, so I'm just ranting now, but you know, I had, I had a coach who used to watch us eat and comment on it, you know.
Speaker A:So here's my question.
Speaker A:Sarah, ready?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because I know you've talked to me about and you obviously had some issues where like you passed out in a race because you weren't eating enough.
Speaker A:And like you had coaches who like told you what you could and couldn't eat.
Speaker A:Why did you stay with those coaches?
Speaker B:Because that's what every.
Speaker B:Like that was this, like this was the.
Speaker B:Every coach that I worked with was there was this constant focus on leaning down.
Speaker B:And I never.
Speaker B:What I can say is as a teenager I did have some disordered eating that would be separate.
Speaker B:That would maybe have been like a psychological thing related to beauty standards where we could, we would go down a.
Speaker A:Different road to being like a 16 year old girl.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like I'm not.
Speaker B:Yes, I'm not.
Speaker B:So I'm not saying I'm immune to all of this when I'm about to say this, but what I am about to say is like I had zero indications of eating disorder or even disordered eating outside of that environment.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So the season ends, I eat whatever I want.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:If they told me I did not perseverate about food, I didn't like, I didn't hate my body.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I didn't think about like a lot of the mental aspects that come with.
Speaker B:And I know people who have eating disorders disorders and I understand that it can be like a lifelong thing.
Speaker B:It's, it's really difficult and I did not have any of those indications.
Speaker B:What I did have was coaches who said if you want to perform, here's what you should eat, here's what you should eat for dinner, here's how many calories, here's foods you should avoid, et cetera.
Speaker B:We were constantly doing experiments like that.
Speaker B:It was actually so ingrained in the culture.
Speaker B:So to now.
Speaker B:That's why I just get like a little annoyed when it's like, now it's put.
Speaker B:If you had tried to put that on me, like, I, I was told, I was told to do this by the people who were supposed to be the experts.
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker A:No, I agree.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, obviously there's a point at which, like when, you know, we say like, oh, oh, she needs to fix herself.
Speaker A:You're like, well, well, does she?
Speaker B:Yeah, like the amount of.
Speaker B:And you know, like I, the amount of.
Speaker B:I would have to have basically stood up to everybody.
Speaker B:Like, there was no one who did not think this way.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:So this is what the governing bodies are trying to fix, right?
Speaker A:Like by, to Samara's point, like by New Zealand Olympic Committee, whatever they're called, stepping in and being like, look, like, we don't feel good about what's happening here.
Speaker A:Like, we want you to stop cycling.
Speaker A:Like, take care of yourself.
Speaker A:It's not import.
Speaker A:It's not more important to us to win medals than for you.
Speaker A:I feel like that is what they're like trying to do, right?
Speaker A: ear, in two years, last year,: Speaker A:Like, if you don't pass these tests for reg, you cannot compete.
Speaker A:Because from a, like, what is it?
Speaker A:I mean, you and I have talked about before?
Speaker A:Like, we can't regulate culture.
Speaker A:We can regulate actions and behavior behaviors, right?
Speaker A:So climbing, the governing body can't say, like, coaches stop being shitty.
Speaker A:They can.
Speaker A:But that.
Speaker A:What is that?
Speaker A:What does that look like?
Speaker A:And what it looks like is if you can't pass these reds tests, like, your athletes can't compete.
Speaker A:Now obviously that has, that doesn't.
Speaker A:Like, obviously you immediately can see how that could go badly.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:But like, I understand that is what they're trying.
Speaker B:And I think what I'm also trying to say is that I think the federation leaders and the coaches themselves and anyone working with the athletes should also have to pass some kind of tests or basic understanding about how athlete health works and female athlete health works.
Speaker A:Sure, there is an interest, like, because on the climbing note, because climbing has really, really been dealing with this.
Speaker A:It's something like when they surveyed, kind of going into that decision a year.
Speaker B:Ago, power to wait.
Speaker B:You know, you can picture these spores.
Speaker B:Like, it's completely.
Speaker B:I completely understand why this ends up happening in climbing.
Speaker A:And so like going into that decision A year ago to implement like you have to, you know, green, orange, green, yellow, orange, red standards of reds testing that are very common in reds testing.
Speaker A:Um, going into that they did all these surveys, there was something like 49% of elite female climbers had eating disorder.
Speaker A:But one of the studies like, and you know, a lot of the top like two time gold medalists were talking about, like they'd always been told, how do you get better, lose weight?
Speaker A:Like, how do you get better?
Speaker A:Like, like the things I've seen a lot of people, right.
Speaker A:A lot of people came out and were like, this is a, this is a deep systemic problem in climbing.
Speaker A:We have to do something.
Speaker A:Um, one of the interesting like studies I was looking at was they analyzed like asked, asked female climbers about like their perception of, you know, would you be a better climber if your body changed and also analyze like who and what they followed on social media and if you followed like influencers, you were way more likely to think your body needed to change any.
Speaker A:Anyway.
Speaker B:Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I had like, I had coaches, I had coaches who coached Olympic champions, Ironman world champions.
Speaker B:Be like on several occasions, you know, from different points be like, you're so talented, if you just lose a couple pounds, you do better or like that this is the kind of comments and when you look at like if I look at photos of myself, then it's wild.
Speaker B:Like where, where were those pounds coming.
Speaker A:From supposed to come from?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And this is obviously why cycling is now wrestling with the same thing climbing did a year.
Speaker A:I mean cycling has a deep, deep, long history as you're talking about all this.
Speaker A:My husband raised on like a semi pro cycling and they used to say that, right?
Speaker B:Oh yeah.
Speaker B:It's not just a random problem.
Speaker A:No, no, they.
Speaker A:But like for what?
Speaker A:Because they don't also have the beauty standards laid on top.
Speaker A:Like as soon as they like left cycling, they just moved on.
Speaker A:But like in their male cycling team, it was like, how do you get fast?
Speaker A:Just don't eat.
Speaker A:That's our training camp weekend.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Like that was what they did.
Speaker A:Um, so cycling is a long.
Speaker A:Which is why cycling right now is debating if they should implement a similar thing what climbing did.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, should they do what Samara's governing by and like start to be like, no, if you don't meet these, you can't race.
Speaker A:You need to go well.
Speaker B:And you have this very uncomfortable reality.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which I know we have in cycling and running.
Speaker B:I don't know about climbing where when you first like when you first start down this road of trying to lose weight for performance, right?
Speaker B:When you're still, like, when you've been healthy up until that point, what happens is you have.
Speaker B:You do get a little performance boost, right?
Speaker A:So first you think it's working, so.
Speaker B:You go and you win some big race or something.
Speaker B:You know, for some people who are already performing like.
Speaker B:Like, with 1 or 2% below the top of their game, and then suddenly they go and they win.
Speaker B:You know, like, often for people, it's like a junior world championship or something like that.
Speaker B:And then you remember that, like, I was at the pinnacle when I was X number of pounds, right?
Speaker B:Like, I. I can remember this.
Speaker B:Like, I ran my fastest half marathon.
Speaker B:I was like, 119 pounds or something, right?
Speaker B:But that was not a healthy weight for me to stay.
Speaker A:Yeah, you start to get.
Speaker B:But at the time, you don't know.
Speaker B:Like, you coach, everyone's telling you you look great.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:You know, or just constant.
Speaker B:But really, my body wanted to be £125, and that was actually still quite light for me.
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And so you have the immediate boost, and you're like, oh, this works.
Speaker A:This is great.
Speaker A:And then you're like, why am I always getting hurt?
Speaker A:Why is my body starting to shut down?
Speaker A:Why am I always tired?
Speaker A:Then I can't hit my workouts anymore.
Speaker A:And then you just start to go down this hole and it spirals.
Speaker A:And then you think the problem is, like, well, I just need to eat even less, because that was what worked before.
Speaker A:And then it, like, spirals more and more and more, and then you're, like, really struggling and you're.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the whole time you're doing it, a lot of people are doing it for performance, right?
Speaker B:Like, not.
Speaker B:This is not, like, beauty standards.
Speaker B:Most of us who are trying to, like, perform at world level, like, beauty standards are like, we don't give a fucking crap, right?
Speaker B:Like, it is.
Speaker B:It is an extra layer for some people, but, like.
Speaker B:Like, who cares, right?
Speaker B:What we're trying to do is be the best in the world at something.
Speaker A:And we've had, like, you said, like, you know, a number of people.
Speaker A:We've had people who work for Feist.
Speaker A:Like, that is a.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That cycle that we just saw is very, very common, right?
Speaker A:Like, that is a very common cycle that people go down, and it.
Speaker A:It almost always ends badly if you keep down that cycle.
Speaker A:Which.
Speaker A:Sideway.
Speaker A:Here is why WADA, World Anti Doping Agency, is thinking about banning GLP1s, the diet drugs.
Speaker A:Because if people.
Speaker A:People have always.
Speaker A:Because in these power to weight sports, people have always struggled with this.
Speaker A:Like, they want to lose weight, but also if you lose too much weight, it literally is bad for performance.
Speaker A:And that line.
Speaker A:So now they're like, well, what if I just take GLP1s?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:That solves my problem.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was reading about this right before the show.
Speaker B:Because my question is, you know, when you take.
Speaker B:I have known a couple people who take GLP1s.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And you also get.
Speaker B:You can't control what weight you lose.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So you also lose muscle mass.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I guess one of the challenges that Watt is looking at is like, I didn't realize this.
Speaker B:People are starting to take a steroid to like counter affect the muscle loss so that you end up with just fat loss.
Speaker B:Which I think, like pairing those two things, then you're like, oh, yeah, now we really do have a question of is this a performance enhancing thing, especially if you have to pair it with the steroids to counteract your muscle loss.
Speaker B:Because I was like, why would athletes take that?
Speaker B:Because you definitely lose muscle.
Speaker A:I mean, why would athletes take drugs that could potentially kill them?
Speaker A:Like, because.
Speaker A:Right, but they don't always make, like, good choices.
Speaker B:That's not exactly what I meant.
Speaker B:Because what I meant was like, muscle loss is also going to affect your performance.
Speaker B:If you're taking it for performance reasons, there has to be a.
Speaker B:You know, but it's like, oh, so now we're like, you just.
Speaker B:That's a spiral.
Speaker B:Like, now something else to counter this.
Speaker B:I have to take something else.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think from WADA's perspective, like, okay, so GLP ones like Ozempic, we go V, those are the big name ones.
Speaker A:Like, I can't think of all of them are.
Speaker A:Have been on their watch list for like two or three years here.
Speaker A:And when something's on a watch list, what they do is they just track how often it shows up in athletes, like blood and sample profiles.
Speaker A:And they don't do anything.
Speaker A:They just like track it, try and keep track of like, side effects and like, because if it's showing up if something.
Speaker A:And they did this the same with like tramadol, whatever the painkiller was a few years ago that people were starting to take just to like, deal with pain.
Speaker A:And then it was like, oh, this goes beyond the medical, like, label use of this drug.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Like, there are reasons people take GLP1 for medical reasons.
Speaker A:Because they have, like, you know, they have issues with weight, they have like, diabetes.
Speaker A:They have diabetes, they have hormone issues.
Speaker A:They have like, other complications because.
Speaker A:And like, and there's like, perfectly useful reasons.
Speaker A:There are also a lot, a lot, a lot of people now just taking it as a diet drug because they want to look skinny.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And which is also just up to them.
Speaker B:Like, they're not a, they're not an elite athlete.
Speaker A:It's not something I would do because, like, I don't.
Speaker A:Wouldn't want to deal with side effects.
Speaker A:And I'm not a person who's ever going to pick like a voluntary thing that has side effects.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But like, that's, but it is also weight obviously, brought back in this whole big diet culture discussion.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And so now, so anyway, so what is trying to do is measure.
Speaker A:And so, sure, maybe there's some percent of athletes that have all these, like, medical reasons, but if it's exceeding the medical use, if it's like 80% of athletes are on this, then it has to be like, huh, Right.
Speaker A:That's a lot.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They can't all have diabetes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:You know, like, that doesn't seem.
Speaker A:So their technical phrase is like, if it exceeds therapeutic uses.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like that.
Speaker A:Because there's like three reasons you ban something.
Speaker A:One is like, if it's performance enhancing, one is if it, like, could harm or potentially hurt the athlete, and one is if it's against the, like, fair play principles of the sport.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Although I did, like, just reading that, I was like, that is a really gray set of reasons, you know, like, that you could, like, by gray I mean debatable on every point, for every potential, you know, you know, substance.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:And so I think right now what they're trying to figure out is like, is there performance enhancing effect?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Is there potential, like, health consequences, side effects?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:For an athlete.
Speaker A:Not like, to your point, do they then start taking other things?
Speaker A:Do they not eat enough to feel their training and they have like another.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, what is the side effect?
Speaker A:Or, you know, does it like, does it cause ripple problems in the, in the sport?
Speaker A:And I think they're specifically looking at cycling, like, to be very clear, I think overwhelmingly looking at cycling, interestingly one.
Speaker B:Thing I read is that it might allow the athletes to actually eat more and stay lean, which is very interesting because then to the.
Speaker B:I forget which point it was out of those three, but to the point about athlete health, it actually.
Speaker B:That actually could help athlete health.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Cause obviously there's also a big push in cycling and in endurance sports to like, get as many carbs as possible in.
Speaker B:Um.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you're like, we'll see.
Speaker A:Uh, it will be interesting.
Speaker A:Cause they're definitely keeping an eye on it.
Speaker A:They're gonna make a decision for.
Speaker A:For.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker A:Before the LA Olympics.
Speaker A:Because, you know, you don't want to have like an Olympic cycle where people start exceeding the therapeutic uses of a drug and then be like, oops, that was a bad choice.
Speaker A:So they're definitely going to make a decision in the next two years.
Speaker B:Okay, well, we'll wait with bated breath, maybe find someone who knows what they're talking about and talk to them about it.
Speaker A:Oh, about GLP ones.
Speaker A:I mean, I think obviously it's a very loaded topic these days.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:We're in feisty.
Speaker B:We're in the process of building in certification for coaches about coaching female athletes better.
Speaker B:You know, we have about 15 or 16 different modules, but one of them we were like, we can't avoid this GLP1.
Speaker B:Sure question.
Speaker B:So we do have an expert in there talking about it.
Speaker A:And I think, like you said, like, I think especially when we, like, we talk about it a lot with like, our menopausal athletes, it's a big topic.
Speaker A:But there also is very much a marketing now to like, into the kind of like, diet culture of the 90s, right.
Speaker A:Like, I was talking to like a running influencer who got reached out to by one of these companies and told, you know, just fill out this survey and we'll send you some free samples of the drug and like, upload your pictures.
Speaker A:And they had like, a doctor online, like, say, like, sure, you could stand to lose weight.
Speaker A:And she's like, how could I stand to lose weight?
Speaker A:Like, I am a fit.
Speaker A:Just ran all these marathons.
Speaker A:Like, I don't want to lose weight.
Speaker A:It's not my goal.
Speaker A:So like, why.
Speaker A:But like, they had their samples.
Speaker B:Dr. Assess whether she could afford to lose weight based on a photo.
Speaker A:Those.
Speaker A:One of those, like, online systems, right.
Speaker A:Where you can get, like, drugs sent to you.
Speaker A:And so anyway, the point is, like, I just saying that she was like, this isn't even.
Speaker A:Like, I'm not in a weight loss goal.
Speaker A:Like, how could you look at my body and tell me I like that I could have like, should when I able to do all these things I want to do.
Speaker A:Like, she's not like a big part.
Speaker A:And then it's like, well, now are we just like.
Speaker A:And they want her to market it to her audience.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Of women.
Speaker A:And that's why I think we get into the like, like, oof.
Speaker C:Oof.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's like that's all my reactions.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm with you on the.
Speaker B:Oof.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:All right, Sarah, to close us out before Thanksgiving, what are your feisty picks of the week?
Speaker B:Okay, I'm picking Doris Lemon.
Speaker B:Goal.
Speaker B:For defending her individual title in the women's race, as we already talked about in the NCAA cross country, which I now fully understand.
Speaker B:Championship.
Speaker A: n girl to defend since, like,: Speaker C:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Double.
Speaker B:I'm double picking her.
Speaker A:All right, I'm gonna go.
Speaker A:Michaela Shiffrin, who, after we talked about last week, she won another World cup, and she's now won 103 World Cups, which is just insane.
Speaker B:But I'm assuming she didn't win a reindeer this time.
Speaker A:She did not win a reindeer.
Speaker B:There's only so many reindeer you can handle.
Speaker B:Nine is a nice number.
Speaker B:You know you can.
Speaker B:People might expect you to deliver them presents.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that is.
Speaker A:I mean, she just, at this point, is breaking her own records every week.
Speaker A:Like when Lindsey Vaughn won 89 or whatever.
Speaker A:87.
Speaker A:That was a big deal.
Speaker A:And we're at, like 103 now, so.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker A:Crazy.
Speaker A:It's wild.
Speaker A:All right, it is Thanksgiving this week.
Speaker A:Hope everybody has a great holiday, whether you're in Canada and you celebrated it a month ago or here in the US and then we will be back next week.
Speaker A:We have three more episodes before.
Speaker A:Before we are taking a break around Christmas and New Year's.
Speaker A:So if you like the podcast, share it with a friend, rate us, review.
Speaker B:Us, send us a voice memo to join the conversation.
Speaker A:Let us know what you thought about everything this week.
Speaker A:You can email a voice memo to podcastive feisty.com or there's a link to, like, upload one in the show notes and subscribe.
Speaker A:Follow on Apple, Google.
Speaker A:I always say Google, Apple, YouTube, or Spotify.
