Webs of Connectivity begins with a poetic narration by Sophie and then flows into a deep conversation with carla.  Sophie speaks to the importance of making and unmaking worlds within a practice of presence, and shares some potential pathways towards opening ourselves up to surprises within every moment or interaction so we can deepen our innate belonging. She also points to the very real horrors that lurk within the realities of Empire and our complicated identities, in particular whiteness. Woven throughout, Sophie offers vital reflections and a sense of comfort as many of us set out to (re)discover our often fractured connections across all time — including with our ancestors, our more than human kin, and throughout landscapes.

SPEAKERS

Sophie, carla, and Jamie-Leigh

[there is instrumental music and soundscapes woven throughout the show]

Welcome to On Belonging, an audio series to connect us. On Belonging explores why so many of us are feeling called to find a deeper sense of belonging, whether with our ancestors or to land where we live, and beyond.

These powerful stories and conversations are an invitation into the lives and landscapes of the guests' worlds, offering pathways towards remembering and finding more belonging.

The following features Sophie Macklin in conversation with carla.

Sophie 1:05

The rhythm of ice sheets growing and receding, sea levels rising and falling, birches and pines traveling north, Great Plains becoming seas. Apocalypse coming again and again in different colors. Humans singing to these rhythms with rituals of ochre, weaving, whalebone and fire, we are made from this.

In long arcs of time, things like racism, transphobia and ableism become not immovable behemoths or telling reveals of human nature, but strange, temporary, and compostable. We see that there was no “natural progression” from one stage of history to another, but that civilization, capitalism, and any of these soul destroying ways of living have not only just recently been created, but also resisted at every turn. That just because something becomes dominant does not make it “natural”, or even total. There are always gaps, there is always multiplicity, there are always other ways. Like deep mineral deposits and peat bogs, these nutrient dense containers of knowledge are passed down to us and living through us in countless ways. We find clues in books, stones, songs, pottery, volcanoes, lichen and rabbits. We also find it in gesture, inflection, nerve endings and desire. We will consider the gods and other otherworldly beings, folk traditions and customs, the magic in the land, and our own bodies as sites of knowledge making and possibility, following threads of desire to places at once very familiar and very strange. As we become multilingual, speaking not only empire and separation but flowers, streams, magic, memory, beauty, we become hybrid. Like an earthworm in the compost that is eating the apple peels and creating the fertile nutrients for the soil in the garden, we too translate. What do we bring with us as we make and unmake the world? What worlds do we find in the past? What worlds do we create with the material we find and are made of?

Hello, Sophie, thanks for being here. Your work is so grounding and so important for this conversation, this conversation on On Belonging, and you bring such insight and so we're just so grateful that you're here.

Thank you.

If you could just maybe introduce yourself in space and time and however you want to identify and share with our listeners, and maybe connect it to ancestry, if you choose to.

Okay, thank you. It's funny, that is such a big question. And especially when you say through space and time -- my brain goes to some kind of cosmic level. I'm from everything in space and time. Which is true, like all of us. I'm descended from everything ever and inhabiting, inhabiting the cosmos with everyone else. But specifically, I was born in a town in Kent, and I grew up in Canterbury in Kent, which is sort of what's got, I guess it's quite famous for having like a cathedral and The Canterbury Tales and all that and it's a very pretty historical town on the banks of the River Stour, which is a beautiful chalk stream and was very important to me growing up like I've spent quite a lot of time going in it sometimes bunking off school and going to it and just looking at it and thinking about it. And so yes, I'm from there. And when I was 23, I moved to California to Santa Cruz first and that shaped me quite a lot too, like I was immediately part of the anarchist community there and kind of living in the forest. And yeah, just really shaped by the experience of meeting those people in that place. And, then I spent 15 years in California, being very shaped by the land and by the people there. And just under a year ago, I moved back to Kent to where I am from, and part of that was to be with my family, like wanting to be close to my family as they're getting older, and that kind of thing. And that feels connected to this too. Like in terms of ancestry and belonging, and just really feeling, like, I wanted to be part of my family while they're living, as well as connecting with ancestors who are on the other side. And also with this land, like, I feel like when I was growing up here, I really hated England, and I hated, like the school structure, or just like cultural norms. And always kind of describe it as that I ran away screaming, like, I just didn't want to be here. And I feel like it's taken a lot of, like, life and learning and relating, and stuff, to be in a place where now I can sort of come back here and, and love the land here so much, despite it being so much more kind of, interfered with, I want to say then, like land in California or something, you know, there's so, so much like, so many fewer, forests or like, like sort of wild places. But now I feel like the depths of my connection with this place. And with the history of this place. And with the specific plants and animals in places is kind of enough, like it feeds me enough and I feel connected here.

It's really connected to this conversation that we're having. Because it is about, you know, part of the framework that we're trying to get at is like, thinking about belonging to the land where you are, and what that means. And you know, like, including more than humans. And so that's beautiful. And I think it's probably deep into your work a little bit, because you're like, literally doing the thing that you're teaching, which we're gonna get into.

I flew away to be here.

Yeah, exactly.

Moving on, as Donna Haraway says, "It matters what stories make worlds and what worlds make stories. It matters what concepts we think, to think other concepts with." And I really, you know, gravitated to your work because I see that there's so much care and consideration put into the concepts that you anchor your work in, and you root it in. And so I'm curious why, you know, one of the things you talked about as unmaking and making worlds and why that's important, and I think probably connected is maybe you could look at some of the key concepts or share some of them that are the foundation to this work?

Sophie 8:04

Okay. I try and go through those…

Yeah. Or however I just yeah, the kind of the concepts and why, you know, storytelling is all weaved in and why it's important?

Yeah, thank you. No, no, I love the question. And it’s layers. Like, it's interesting that you bring up Donna Haraway in the context of this, and that particular quote, which I love, and I've shared in my classes, and funnily enough, actually, we're talking about moving to America, I moved to America, I won an essay competition that were at my university to get a scholarship for a year abroad in California, at UCSC, which I then dropped out after a couple of months and lived in the woods. And that was, that was my university career, but it got me there. And it was actually an essay that was about like, situated knowledges, which is a Donna Haraway concept. So it was kind of literally my, like entries to like there was through that. And I feel like that way of thinking of like, yeah, how knowledge is situated and contextual. And constantly kind of iterated and created through relationship and through experience, and how those thoughts then go on to shape like the next things or they make different things possible, depending on what they are. And I feel like that had a big influence, like on my politics, as an anarchist. And on my like, relating with people with plants with animals. Yeah, but that idea that it matters, what we're thinking with, and seeing how that creates worlds. And yeah, you're mentioning the sort of world making and unmaking. Which, yeah, it was a concept that I was really exploring in my last class. And I think that that's kind of important to me, because it's like, for lots of reasons. But one of the things I love about it is it really shows that we're kind of always in an active process of making and unmaking worlds, and that we're not objective observers, somehow disconnected to what we're observing. But we're participating, we're making and we're unmaking. And it kind of reminds me of that Bakunin quote that you see on, like, anarchists' houses and posters everywhere of "the urge to destroy is also a creative urge", or something like that. It's like slightly misquoting it, but that we are in processes of destruction and creation, and that for the kinds of things that we are wanting to do in the world that both are kind of necessary pieces. So yeah, and I think within that making and unmaking acknowledging like, our active participation, and also that it is only participation that like, we're not the main characters, there's many other things, making worlds with us, like human and non human, historical, past, present, future that are kind of involved in the making that we're involved in, and in the unmaking. And that, like, the systems that were part of, like systems of oppression are kind of upheld through a process of co-making, then not something that kind of exists outside of that. And so humans created capitalism, or whatever, and we can uncreate it, we can do something different. And so I think highlighting the making /unmaking is part of that. I feel like one of the most important things for me is looking at how the way that we've been taught things are -- what is just natural about human nature, that we're selfish, and always prioritize self interest in this rational economic man sense. Or that gender is essential and natural, the way that we are taught to understand it, like binary gender, or just anything, that this isn't true that these are actually historical creations, and that there's been like different projects say, like colonization, or of enclosure and capitalism, that have created things that seem normal and natural today, but they're not and that people in different cultures or people throughout time, have done things really differently. And we can learn with that and, and do something differently now. So that feels like a really key thing that shows up in kind of whatever topic I'm doing, like I have my class, it's about sickness, and disability, and mysticism, and anti capitalism. But it's still coming from that same thing of how did we get these norms about what it means to be able bodied and disabled, or just, or ideas about usefulness and productivity? Where did they come from? It's not just something natural, and how can we do something else. So that's a really important thing. Another thing is this concept of attention, like paying attention, and really just being with what's true, like not acting from what we think things should be like, or relating to someone how we sort of think they are because they like this, or whatever, but really, choosing to pay attention and relate to people and others and things from a place of being willing to be surprised or encounter newness, or, yeah, and through that kind of create the type of intimacy that's available from actual connection. Because I sort of believe in that. So politically, that's from that sort of, like connection and intimacy, we can do different things. I'm sure there's lots of others.

And I'm sure they'll come up in the conversation here. But that's so beautiful, and I really love the what I see the thread that runs through your work is that, that thinking through or being with time in this really nuanced deep way of you know, I think it's called like time binding when you grab stuff from the past and, and from the future, and you'll weave it into the present. And so it's like your work so deeply nuanced, but yet so grounded at the same time. Because it's, yeah, we got to, like, unpack these norms, but we also got to be with what is and like, listen to the people in the room. And that's, that takes a lot of patience and care, including our relationships with plants and fungi and animals.

Yeah, thank you. It's funny because sometimes it sounds really simple when you think of just like paying attention or something but when you like, actually do it or make sense of it, and try to practice that in a world that is kind of running on the assumption that we won't do that or that creates lots of ways for us to not do that. Like it really does create different possibilities just to do that simple shift into being with that but yeah, sorry, go on...

That's beautiful. Thank you so much. And it really, you know, I think it's really a good grounding place to go into your work from because both your workshops we're going to dive into really connect to this project On Belonging, but, the one Beyond the Blood workshop was the one that really stood out to me at first, and it's one of your earlier ones. I love that you begin with affirming all the wonderful aspects of reconnecting to our ancestors and folklore, but you also point to whiteness and how Fascism is lurking amidst this journey of reconnecting and you know, like, like, you say, fascists love nothing more than white people connecting with pagan ideals and, and whiteness. Yeah, can you share some of the seeds and happenings that led you to do this work and offer this course and, and maybe speak to what some of your findings are about how we can navigate this interplay of finding ancestral belonging on the one hand, and also grappling with this white supremacy? I know, it's a very big question.

It is a big question. But thank you for it. Okay. Yeah, obviously, that's what the whole class is about… Like, there's a lot to say. But um, yeah, like, I think that, you know, for me, too, I was living well on Tongvaa land in Los Angeles most recently, and also grappling with those listings of what it means to be like a white settler in a colonial situation, and sort of connecting to ancestral traditions, or like Earth base traditions, or something like that. And seeing a lot of people around me for the last, maybe like 15 years or something, really wanting to not like culturally appropriate and having like a strong ethic of not wanting to like steal from Indigenous cultures, especially, and just really interrogating that kind of entitlement to others traditions coming from, like white people and stuff, and seeing this move towards looking towards like, European, European ancestral traditions or something. And I think there's something that's obviously really beautiful about that, and kind of coming from that place of really wanting to be able to show up in solidarity with Indigenous people, or just like finding these ways to be more rooted in something, and come into the conversation from there. And also just people looking for ways to connect with the land when we've been raised in cultures that generally haven't fostered that in us or haven't shown us how, and, you know, we're really starving for that often and looking for that. So I think the way that people have been looking for this and creating sort of crafts or rituals or songs or you know, just like cultures that are kind of interesting, like, engaging in this is really beautiful. But yeah, like you said, like, it also overlaps with a lot of kind of risky, risky territory, in terms of fascist stuff. Like, I think a lot of people don't have any idea of that, often, unless they've sort of been confronted with it before, like how even like the Nazis, like the German Nazi Nazis, were into ecology and, like natural medicine, and connecting to the land, you know, like, there was a lot of stuff that is, I think, just just not thought about that much. And then how we see like, in kind of resurgent fascist movements, over the last sort of 30 years, maybe like in a more so quiet way, but louder in the last five or so, say. I think some of the places they strive to sort of look back to the past, for these really clear instructions of how things should be. And I think there's, again, like I'm, I was saying that people there's a sort of an honorable sort of good impetus for that, like, looking for these different ways. But I think that when we approach the past as something that we can, that is static enough for us to uncover, and find a right way, that leads into the type of thinking that's very complimentary with a kind of like, fascist Nazi like, looking for this idea of a purity and a sort of idea of like, what is an essential human nature? How should we live? what is the true right way to be? And we see that come up in like, gender stuff, especially thinking of kind of fascist ideas of, you know, sort of veroral masculinity and a very kind of motherly, docile femininity, and very binary and this being like this essentialist thing, this idea of like, this is what humans are naturally like, and I think we need to be suspicious basically, anytime we hear something about "humans are naturally like this". "Look at this thing in the past, it proves this point about that". And Nazis have obviously used that to sort of the biggest and most dramatic violent effect, but I think that it has dangers, like even on a kind of small level. And I think the way we've seen anti trans stuff really pick up in the last few years and TERFS doing work with far right people and stuff like that to get legislation passed, makes a lot of sense. And so I think that's one of the ways that can show up, I think also with ideas of ethnicity and sort of national identity, that this idea that I think exists in sort of, with white people looking for something in Turtle Island, especially like looking at European nationalisms, as kind of somehow quaint and okay, compared to like, Canadian, or American or something like that. It's like, oh, no, it's like Lithuania, and it's Irish, it is English, it's French, like, whatever, and not seeing the harm that's created through those national identities too. And how, I think sometimes there can be like a real strong longing to almost get rid of the guilt of whiteness, and instead claim a kind of, "Oh I am Indigenous too, my family is Indigenous to Ireland, or is Indigenous in Norway." And the first person who kind of spoke publicly about white people being Indigenous, in Europe, like to Britain was this guy called Nick Griffin, who's the leader of the British National Party, a fascist party. And he kind of started this whole thing about white people are Indigenous to Europe, too. And I think that looking at the sort of history of how fascists are using these things, and so happy that people are really getting into these ways of thinking and talking is kind of illustrative of the problem too. I think, looking at something like the word Indigenous, and thinking of what does it mean, when white people use it? How does its meaning shift and change? How is power operating in that? Like, how is white supremacy wielding the word of indigeneity to gain more power in a social situation or something? Or in material, big situations?

Yeah, that there's a real danger there. And I think that's the thing with whenever we're doing any of these kinds of things, like if we're doing the work of reconnecting with our ancestors, or connecting with the land, that we are doing it in the context of colonialism, capitalism, white supremacy, police violence, all these things, and to kind of remember that, and to see that, like, what does the work we're doing in this group? Or what is this? How is that engaging with that historically created and real thing that's happening now? Like, who does it serve to say that I'm Indigenous for example, as a white person? And like, who does it not serve? And like, what are the impacts of that? And yeah, I feel like we've really seen weird sort of living with the escalation of that right now, in terms of more kind of, in England, for sure, like a much more loud, xenophobia and sort of racism, like a sort of much more socially acceptable racism, obviously, England is always structurally racist through time. But recently, there's kind of more social acceptance of it, it seems. And I think that that's coming from some of this stuff of, you know, the 'what about white people too thing', and so much of the kind of European ancestry world feeds into that.

Yes, and I really appreciate you bringing up essentialism and where it leads. Yeah, I mean, the short of it is, this sort of impulse to want to find belonging through your ancestral connections is a good one. but, to be thoughtful, and consider how your power plays out in that journey.

Yeah. and I think another thing that is, when we're looking at the value of like, connecting with our ancestry in the past, I think we're often thinking of it in these lines, you know, like, like, down and maternal line or paternal line are these family trees, where it's someone to someone to someone to someone, and I think that kind of limits us and can I think when we sort of then look to the past, we start going into these very specific regions, or very specific people, when actually we're descended from a lot more than just our blood family, you know, like, that we're descended from the different things that made them and then we're descended from what made us and it goes beyond the human. And it's humans who aren't in that tree. And I think that when we can connect with that kind of belonging to an ancestry that's much deeper than just these lines, it puts us in a much more robust position for like, not falling into the fascist traps of these: I'm essentially this kind of person. It's a thing that's sort of happening near to me at the moment is there are these groups who think that you can only practice say like Norse paganism if you have Northern European blood and I, I would not use the word blood, but that's what how they describe that, and that people who don't have that kind of blood or whatever, shouldn't be practicing those traditions, like they don't let people come to their rituals. And then I see people who are kind of more closely connected to the sub cultures that I'm part of, seeing that as somewhat acceptable, because it's like, well, yeah, people, you know, have this connection through their blood. And that's the sort of place that people find belonging. And I think it probably goes without saying, like, all the things that are dangerous about that line of thought, and that we just have to really look at how we're descended from, from a lot more than this idea of blood. And because what does that even mean? But yeah, okay.

Thank you so much for that! I always have an impulse to want to use descendant more than ancestor, because I always think, I always think beyond linear time. So I think about my future descendants, and I always think about, yeah, the non nuclear family, you know, it's very rhizomatic the way you're thinking and also cosmic, and I never had it explained that way before. So my intuition was correct to call it descendants. But I didn't know why I was doing that. So thank you, for that clarity. So deep, yeah, thank you. And that kind of connects to, you know, this idea of playing with time, because your newest offering, is called Fragments of Roots and Bones. And you go deep into time, really, and it's like a nonlinear time, that is an engagement with the past and future and how it all weaves into our lives today. So I'm wondering if you could, I mean, you spoke a bit, but can you tell us why this new iteration and articulation needed to happen? And perhaps talk about the course and its significance to maybe finding our pathways to belonging?

Yeah, thank you. Yeah. So it almost feels like it's like part two of Beyond the Blood. Like, it feels like a sort of continuation of that class in a way, partly because it'll Beyond the Blood, because we spent a lot of time like, looking at some of the stuff that's been happening, or what's the sort of fascist influence on things or historically how things have been created, there was never enough time, in my opinion, for us to go really into the sort of what we do instead, like, there are a few weeks on that, but I wanted to just really explore that of what is it like to explore, yeah belonging to place and belonging to time is something I think about quite a lot, how we don't just, yeah, belong in place, but we're kind of like rooted always in webs of lineage, like constantly. And we are part of the future too, through that, I love what you just said about descendants too, because it's whatever we do with it, and not to do with like whether we particularly have children from our bodies, or something like that. But just we are part of creating the future, we are inheriting the past, we're always belonging to time. And so I wanted to explore that. And also, with this idea of making and unmaking, I wanted to look at what it means to like, look at the past and not as something that is this fixed, static, objective, observable reality that we can go and like, take things from that are like whole and entire, and then we just bring them to, and then we do them now, you know, and just like carry on or something. But to look at what it means to see the different ways that things in the present shape what we see when we look back, and what are we literally doing, like whether we're reading a book, that is what somebody else, you know, based on someone else's research, or something, or if we're looking at like a fossil, like I found a really amazing fossil recently, that's, I think it's like seven to five million years old or something like that. And like what happens when I'm holding that in my hand? And looking at that, and looking at this imprint of this creature that lived that long ago? What is the actual relationship? And what am I learning? And what's what's happening there? And also, just here, when we are looking in books and hearing songs, or something from folk songs that were written down, say in like the 1500s, but we're probably older, like, who are we hearing that from? And what do we make with it in the present? And how have power structures across time or just people's choices across time shaped what gets passed on to us? And then what do we do with that? So really looking at sort of all the ways it's, it's complicated, but how that's not something that is bad, you know, because I think sometimes people think that that sounds worse and the sort of fascist presenting of things is more simple, I think ends up being appealing to people but I think looking at this complexity as like a gift that we get to co create with these, these ancestors or these stories or these places and create something beautiful now. So you're looking at it through those lens through like disturbances is kind of an opportunity, and intimacy with time like really looking at how we relate what it means in our bodies. What does it feel like? How are our ancestors or like, and again, not just people who like birthed us, but everything that's gone into making us how is that present and how I'm moving my hands on my face or like what I see when I look at you and that these are very embodied ongoing realities that we're co creating with.

That's so deep and so necessary. Like I just, you know, I mean, part of part of how Empire wields ongoing power is to have kind of a historical amnesia, or making it very linear and set in stone. And so this work, I think it's, it's, you know, acknowledging to use a phrase my friend uses, acknowledging our radical histories and uncovering those histories, just in general is important, but to do it in such a deep embodied way, is I think, really, I mean, I think it's going to do the work of potentially really undoing these narratives. And you can see it happening, you can see it unearthing around the world. So thanks for doing that work.

Yeah, thank you, I hope to be... I am not sure I am doing that exactly, but I am happy to be part of like reflecting what's happening with a lot of people kind of asking these kinds of questions or like, yeah, yeah. Because I think it's like what you just said about your friend, I've been really passionate about, like, yeah, radical history in the history of people resisting systems of oppression, for a really long time, like, kind of all of my adult life. And I think that that's really sort of grounding and sort of rooting, in terms of none of these projects have ever been total, whenever you look at something in the past, that looks terrible, there are always people resisting, whether that's like, in big ways of strikes, or, you know, what we would think of as resistance or whether it's just people in their families refusing something, or, or whatever, and that there's just such a wealth of stuff for us to connect with, that kind of affirms life and freedom and togetherness, and that's just really beautiful to me. For me, like I, I really like connecting with places going and visiting places where things have happened, like historical, like, uprisings or like those connections, they're kind of like my sacred sites, as well as I do also more traditional sacred sites. But I love going to places where there's gonna be some value, and it's all connected with the land there where it feels like the land is holding this memory of, of people resisting and wanting to be in relationship in a different way. And yeah, that's part of my practice.

Beautiful. And, yeah, more people need to because really, like, that's, I think that connections are vital for our survival and survival. Yeah, this is kind of, we're sort of pivoting away from your course to like thinking about, I'm just curious if you've thought about or felt about, you know, maybe what gets in the way from so many of us feeling a sense of true belonging, including to nature, to plants, and fungi and waterways. and nonhumans?

Yeah, like, I think it's connected kind of, to everything that we're talking about, but I think, how most people in kind of "Western" countries for want of a better word or whatever, but are raised-- the culture is so heavily individualistic, and kind of alienated. And that is really affirmed, like just this idea that you should be self sufficient, or this the sort of, yeah, idea that of separateness is taught very, extremely from kind of an early age. And I think that means, you know, separate from people who are also separate from plants and animals and waters and everything. And I think that mainly kids aren't raised with a sense of: my life is utterly dependent on webs of life, and death, you know, that like that… I feel like often, if we really take in the degree to which we're dependent on so many things, if I think about just what I'm like eating and drinking in a day, and all the beings involved in that, I feel like if I really connected that I just fall to my knees in or in gratitude, something, you know, like, it's, it's so like, big, and we're just mainly taught to, like, not connect to that. And so I think that that really affects our sense of kind of belonging in the world. It's almost like we think that we're, somehow these separate beings that get our needs met in this separate way, but it's not we're like always, always, always connected to everything. So I think that and I think also, just because we do live in such an individualistic culture, where care isn't normal, especially beyond the sort of nuclear family. People are in surviving a lot, you know, like, trying to survive under capitalism and patriarchy, white supremacy and just all the things and that's hard and yeah, I think it's just like culture of alienation and disconnection in general as an ethic as a way of being in the world, is the thing that often needs dismounted.

You know, most of my work is grounded in youth liberation and abolishing adult supremacy for this reason, because it's, we just keep replicating. And why we keep getting stuck in these cycles is because you know, this individualizing and atomizing people and not connecting, having them feel part of a web of care for connectivity. Another Donna Haraway quote that I saw the other day, that made me think when you said that that made me think of her was she was talking about homelessness and displacement around the world, that's like her big thing she's most you know, and to landways, she brings up that flowers blooming at different times, means that insects can't land and build their families. And so we have a homelessness with the insect world, and we know what that's gonna do to the planet, right. And it was just such a grounding way to use that kind of human language to insects being displaced and homelessness, and it was so profound. Like, wow, so now when I see the flowers bloom, like three months early, and now that's the first thing I'm thinking of thanks, Donna. But it's really, you know, connected me in a way that maybe I hadn't been connected to climate chaos and what's happening, you know, so thanks for opening that up.

Yeah, no, thank you for that. Yeah, that's heartbreaking. Like my heart is literally hurting now, like thinking about that it's just really, yeah devastating.

Yeah. So I mean, I'm not even gonna go into a more uplifting question. Because you know, with the world literally on fire as we talk, I think we're at like, the most people ever displaced. And so is it… I am just curious, like, is it even naive to have this conversation? Or, you know, is it what is going to save us? Like, if we can really break through and push through this, like, you've just talked about the siloing us into individual lives?

Yeah. In terms of its nieve for us to have this conversation, like, I feel like, in a way, it would be hubris for us to think it's that, you know, that our conversation has these big impacts. But I think that, because like I was saying before, how like we are always involved in making and unmaking and so I think exploring these things, and working towards these things in our, in our individual ways, or in our collective ways, is really important, even when the scale is kind of mind blowing, or heartbreaking, kind of, like we're talking about. But I think with this idea of belonging, that for me, like when I think about what belonging means, or like it as, like a political thing, I think that belonging is something that just is that we, that is inherent, we do belong. And the thing that's gone wrong is that we've grown up with the lie of not belonging, and of, and we believed it, most of us, you know, have — I believe that. But I think belonging to the earth, and to time and to our lineages, or to our world cannot be taken away, we just do belong. And so I think that the more that we can find the ways to access that knowing, and act from that place, where like, we are sort of able to act from that place of belonging, that, you know, like, I do think that's kind of what's needed, I think, that I've seen over the years going to, being in sort of radical subcultures and stuff, I was trying to create a sense of belonging around, like certain identities, or a land project or something like this. And it's kind of a false sense of, almost like false belonging, that we're deciding we belong. And so we belong, rather than just acknowledging that we do belong with each other. What now? What do we want to do now? in with that being the baseline, you know, and that often, when we try to create belonging in a kind of artificial way, we can end up with kind of dangerous kind of belonging, where it's an 'ingroup' and 'out group', which might look like people being kind of, yeah, this sort of like Black Sheep idea, or the idea of somebody being exiled in a community, but also xenophobia or tightening of the borders, on this sort of national level, this idea that there's belonging of, say, English people in England, and it's like exclusionary, to like other people, or even just thinking of people creating belonging in the classic kind of school bully way, the thing is you have to sort of go along with it, and then you get in with a group. And I think we need to really watch out for that kind of artificial belonging, because we're so hungry for it, hungry for a sense of belonging, that we might go against our values or ourselves in order to try and create it. But I think when we come from that place of just knowing we belong we can make kind of braver choices, we can recognize that we're kind of responsible for each other, and for ourselves, and we can be in solidarity and come from that place. Yeah.

I might be crying. So beautiful. I just feel so yeah, thank you what a gift you've just given to me like sitting here right now. But I'm hoping that the listeners really take this in, I'm sure some people will resonate with it, but maybe it'll be the first time they've heard it. But a gift, thank you so much. I couldn't agree more.

Also, like for me, like I think about places when I, because I think it's something that just is, but obviously, there are moments when I feel it more, or like I access it more. And I was thinking about, like, what those are, and it's sort of, we just feel you're saying that edge is like I think of those edges kind of in a sort of more like, we're not really metaphorical, but kind of saying like, political like action with people like in the streets with people or something like that. There's that sense of belonging, where we're acting on that sense of belonging to the earth, belonging to each other. And that feeling of acting in the knowledge that that's true gives me the sense of that, like belonging, or like when people come together, you know, if somebody is dying, or has died, and people come together around out or something in these moments of almost an edge, or liminality, or where, kind of like, I feel like the belonging kind of reveals itself to be true. And it's not about who's in or out. It's that we're all participating in the knowledge of our togetherness and our belonging,

I've seen you talk about birch trees a lot, or I have a real love for trees as well. The oak tree is, if I've been asking people if they were a bloom, what would it be? And of course, one of my things is I'm very multiple. So I'm like I have five blooms. But the acorn is really, really important. So I'm wondering, like in the context of that, like kind of accessing the always already belonging, you know, where some of those places?

Yeah, I feel like I'm glad you haven't asked me that bloom question directly, because I don't know what I would say to you, I am like: all of them. But yeah, I think, I guess I just sort of start answering that other places when I feel that belonging, I think it is when I'm acting in the kind of security of the knowledge that I belong. And so I feel like that's often yeah, with people. And it's often with plants or the ocean, or like you said, with birch trees. I do love birch trees. I love love hugging birch trees. I love thinking about birch trees through time. Because they were like after the last ice age, they were like the one the first trees that kind of started to kind of grow on the land as the ice receded and kind of created habitat for other plants and animals to come next, you know, they're very, very hospitable trees. I also have two just out my window that I can see all the time, these kinds of urban birch trees, but I think about them and their ancestors a lot. But yeah, I guess for me the thing when I think about like, when do I feel most belonging, it's whenever I'm in a situation where I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. And I feel like I'm exactly where I like should be doing what I should be doing or something, you know? And sometimes that can just be like a really deep conversation with someone and you just, it's perfect, and you wouldn't want to be anywhere else. And that feeling of kind of living in that kind of place of yeah, being at the right place at the right time. And sort of having a sense of that whatever it is, whether it is through these kind of more intense moments, or these kind of mundane, but beautiful moments, or where we're just acting courageously. I think that too is a sense of belonging of like I belong to, you know, these things that I love, like the earth or plants, animals and so when I'm acting on that, It's the type of courage that feels sort of just like a natural outgrowth of it that feels the same as belonging to me.

I don't know if this is what you mean. But I hear like when you're feeling probably most present in the now like in this moment, so it can be really subtle of just sitting by a birch tree or it can be in a deep conversation.

Yeah. And also like I've actually had some of my, I remember one particularly deep spiritual experience, I had one time standing in line to pick up a prescription in Walgreens pharmacy in the US, and I sort of was looking around at everything and I was looking at the plastic packaging and stuff. And then I was sort of imagining where it had all come from, you know, and I was thinking back to its origins as like oil and in the ground and just all the things and just really thinking that we're never disconnected from it. You know, that things have been like shaped into all sorts of things. And capitalism creates, you know, terrible impacts of them when our bodies and on the earth itself is terrible, but we're never out of connection with quote unquote nature or something, you know, like that when we're in cities, concrete and tarmac and stuff is made from rocks, and it's from places and we can kind of access that anywhere. Or, you know, I'm ill quiet, I've got a lot of time in bed, but I'm like, still connected, when that's happening, like with my body or with the cats, or just the house and who made it and just everything you know, like that it really is something that can't ever be taken away, doesn't need a sort of pristine, beautiful, natural environment, but they're great, too. Let's make more.

this is just like anti colonial and anti capitalist to think about...Yeah, just to feel that web of connection, like deeply, even with something like plastic, thanks for sharing that, that's, it's gonna change my whole experience now when I'm in a store. It's true, like that access, like, I mean, by the way to fill out belonging, and a deep, you know, in every moment, and it's kind of connected to the kind of wrapping up this beautiful conversation, which I don't want to, but I respect your time and, your need to be with your birch tree... You know, sort of holding these multiple truths of, like, Multiplicity of, you know, living with different things that maybe cut us off from spending time with people or yeah, isolation of individualism or surviving this hellscape that's happening with capitalism, like part of this conversation of of that we're asking people is, you know, what are some of the ways you find thriving amid and through these complex truths?

I guess, like, kind of the things I've already been saying, you know, like, the things I feel like, things are so devastating, like the things that you just said about, you know, the insects, and that sort of homelessness, and then also human homelessness, and just everything that's happening, right, like, there's so much that's devastating all the time. And then there's like, the ways that that impacts us in very material, real ways, you know, of, obviously, when there's like the fires and stuff that's impacting people in very real ways. And then also just the day to day survival under capitalism, like right now, I've been extra sick in the last year since I got COVID last year. And it's really impacted my ability to make money, for example, to work. And I'm sort of, at the moment engaging with some of the government systems for that, and it's really awful, basically, you know, but I think connecting to all the people throughout time, and now who are resisting that and who are like creating something different, and who, like, understand what I'm going through with that, because so many people are like we are so in it together. You know, I think one of like, the cruelest things that we can do to ourselves to each other is sort of feel alone in our struggles with it. And I think that the way that capitalism has talked about kind of like mental health and stuff like that is as if we have these individual struggles, individual problems that can be medicalized and pathologized, when I think really, it's, this isn't really working to anyone, and everyone's struggling with it. And it's hard. And I think that sharing that with each other, and being kind of in the acknowledgement, and just struggle with it, it's hard and also, that we're working towards doing something different, even in small ways, I think is what really helps me feel alive and engaged and, and honestly pretty joyful a lot of the time, despite everything like, connecting with people and plants and animals in my life is beautiful, and can't be taken away, you know, but yeah, a sense that we're kind of in it together and doing something together, however small is what kind of keeps me like heart open and alive and happy to be here.

Yeah, I mean, you it is the thread that ran through this whole conversation. And it comes back to that kind of unmaking and making worlds, and destruction and creation happening in a holistic way together. And that's that that is like if I could be so bold to say that that's kind of like the thread that runs through your work, but also your life. And I think you've given us a lot to think about and to feel like we're not so alone and that we just belong.

We do.

It's so beautiful. It's so great. Is there anything you'd like to say that maybe you didn't cover?

No, just thank you so much for having me. And thank you for these questions. They're just so beautiful as well and like kind of what I most want to be talking about, for us to be sharing ideas around and stuff. So having me on, it's just really an honor. So thank you.

Thanks for listening to On Belonging. This episode featured Sophie Macklin with music by Sour Gout.

On Belonging is curated by carla joy bergman and Jamie-Leigh Gonzales with tech support by Chris Bergman. The show's awesome theme music is by AwareNess. On Belonging is a Joyful Threads and Grounded Futures creation. Please visit groundedfutures.com for show notes, transcripts, and to read more about On Belonging.

Till next time, keep walking. Keep listening.

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These transcripts were generated in Otter, and lightly edited by our team.