If you’ve had a caesarean before, you’ve probably been given a whole mix of advice about what to do next time. Some people warn you off VBAC. Others tell you to go for it. And then there’s you, stuck in the middle, trying to make sense of it all.

In this week’s episode of The Science of Motherhood, Dr Renee White chats with Dr Hazel Keedle, one of Australia’s leading VBAC researchers and a Senior Lecturer of Midwifery at Western Sydney University. Hazel has spent decades listening to women, studying their stories, and breaking down what truly supports a positive birth after caesarean. She’s down to earth, easy to listen to, and offers the kind of straight-up clarity mums are craving.

Renee and Hazel talk through what actually matters, what’s outdated, and how you can feel more confident in your choices moving forward.

You’ll hear about:

• Hazel’s four factors framework for planning a supportive VBAC.
• Why “once a caesarean, always a caesarean” is old thinking.
• How your care team shapes your experience more than you realise.
• The system pressures that mums often feel, but rarely get explained.
• Practical tips for choosing people who genuinely support your birth wishes.

You’re allowed to slow down, ask questions, and choose the care that feels right for you. VBAC isn’t about proving anything. It’s about feeling informed, backed, and respected. This episode will give you that grounding so you can move forward with more clarity and less noise.

Resources and Links

📲 Connect with Renee on Instagram: @fillyourcup_

🌐 Learn more about Dr Renee White and explore Fill Your Cup Doula services

🍪 Treat yourself with our Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies

📲 Connect with Dr Hazel Keedle

Website: https://hazelkeedle.com

Instagram: @hazelkeedle

Hazel’s book The Clinician's Guide to Better Birth After Cesarean is available through Amazon and major online retailers.

If this episode helped you feel a bit clearer or more supported, pass it on to another mum who’s weighing up her options too. And hit subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode of The Science of Motherhood.

Disclaimer

The information on this podcast presented by Fill Your Cup is not a substitute for independent professional advice. Nothing contained in this episode is intended to be used as medical advice and it is not intended to be used to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease, nor should it be used for therapeutic purposes or as a substitute for your own health professional's advice.

[00:00:27] Dr Renee White: I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is the science of motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 201. This is The Science of Motherhood, and I'm your host, Dr. Renee White. In today's episode, we're exploring birth after cesarean and the groundbreaking research that's changing how we support women's choices. Have you ever been told that once a cesarean, always a cesarean?

[00:01:17] Dr Renee White: If you are trying to make sense of your options and no one seems to be giving you the full picture, this conversation is absolutely for you. Today, I'm joined by Dr. Hazel Keedle, a senior lecture of midwifery at the Western Sydney University. An author of two books now on birth after Cesarean. One for women, the first one, and now one for clinicians.

[00:02:06] Dr Renee White: So you'll discover how doulas and birth workers can use this framework when families are drowning in conflicting advice and the biggest misconceptions clinicians have about what women actually fear. And stay with us for when Hazel talks about the changes she desperately wants to see in maternity care systems, because it's not just about individual choice, it's about systemic change.

[00:02:58] Dr Renee White: Alright, everyone, let's dive into today's episode with Dr. Hazel Keedle.

[00:03:10] Dr Hazel Keedle: I'm great. I'm well. Thank you for having me on.

[00:03:25] Dr Hazel Keedle: Thank you very much. I never thought I'd write one, let alone two.

[00:03:39] Dr Hazel Keedle: three thesis. So then I had a master's and then the PhD, so, yeah,

[00:03:53] Dr Renee White: I was like, oh no I don't. I don't wanna do it. My supervisor's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got, you got top of class for honors, you have to do a PhD. And I'm like, yeah, but I have to write a thesis. Like

[00:04:05] Dr Renee White: yes. Well that was my aim, Hazel. And then it didn't kind of pan out like that because Yeah anyways, that's a long story. Um, we are here to talk about you and we are here to talk about. The amazing book that you've written, which is complimentary to your first book. Now, the second book is called The Clinician's Guide to Better Birth After Cesarean, and your first one was Birth After Cesarean, your Journey to a Better Birth.

[00:04:45] Dr Hazel Keedle: So after the first one, I was invited to go and do some, you know, book launch stuff and it would go from, you know, a small thing to then a few hours. And from that I developed a workshop for clinicians.

[00:05:17] Dr Hazel Keedle: Mm-hmm. And I based it on the four factors, which is what came out of the PhD and is in the first book. And as I started doing it and hearing from clinicians as well. That's really where the seed came from because I just thought, well, not many people are come, well, I had a fair, fair few people come do my, my workshops, but I couldn't do them forever and I couldn't do them everywhere.

[00:06:04] Dr Hazel Keedle: Mm-hmm. So this is where I thought, you know, I've, all the stuff that I've done in the workshops and all the stories that I've heard in the workshops, I think I could put this together in a book and um, and I did.

[00:06:34] Dr Renee White: Can you, I guess, explain, you know, why evidence alone isn't enough? You know, just, you know. Pulling numbers out of studies and things like that. Particularly now when we're supporting women considering VBAC versus, you know, repeat cesarean.

[00:06:52] Dr Hazel Keedle: Well, I think if the data was enough, then we would have very high rates of VBAC in Australia. Mm.

[00:07:18] Dr Hazel Keedle: Hearing about and I thought, we know we need to change. We need to change that. And there's so much with it. You, you do need to understand the data because the data actually is very supportive of birth choices.

[00:07:43] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:55] Dr Hazel Keedle: But there's a lot that makes up how to really support women to plan that better birth after the cesarean. So that's kinda where I've, where I've gone into within those four factors. And so I think if we just have the data, the data's really favorable. So why is not? More women having access and the barrier, one of the biggest barriers for women to have access is the clinician.

[00:08:25] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. And so I guess without, you know, doing too many spoilers, because we obviously want clinicians to get this book in their hands, can you kind of just walk us through what those four, the four factor framework is, and I guess you know what they are and, and how did you, how did you arrive at at those.

[00:09:09] Dr Hazel Keedle: So what the appointment had been like, what they had been told, what happened, how this impacts them. Um, there was very loose guidelines, but then they kind of didn't need it because we're just such good talkers. Yeah. I get all these installments. It was like the, the best soap opera ever because I was like, what are they gonna tell me today?

[00:09:41] Dr Hazel Keedle: Mm-hmm. And then you compare and contrast the stories for differences and similarities and what the real core of the messages are that are coming out of that.

[00:09:50] Dr Hazel Keedle: And that was an interesting process. It was a new methodology for me. I'm, I'm used to kind of putting everything in. Mixing it all up and then pulling stuff out.

[00:10:18] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:10:34] Dr Hazel Keedle: And so for example, there were two stories, two women that had on paper, like if we were reading notes

[00:10:42] Dr Hazel Keedle: Would be identical. Mm-hmm. They both got to fully dilated and they both had a repeat cesarean at full, at full dilation.

[00:10:48] Dr Hazel Keedle: But their account of their stories and how they felt about it. And I did these interviews back to back. Mm. And then I went, I wrote a reflection, then I went straight to the other one, wrote reflection, uh, on the same day.

[00:11:10] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:11:22] Dr Hazel Keedle: You know, black and white and all these kind of things. And we think, you know, one birth choice is good, the other birth choice is bad and mm-hmm. And you come from different viewpoints on that. And then we also then think as clinicians, well if you planned something and you got it, good. If you planned something and you didn't get it, then bad.

[00:11:53] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:04] Dr Hazel Keedle: And you could still, you could feel really good about it or you could feel really bad about it. Mm-hmm. And it was about what those factors were. Mm-hmm. And those factors became the four factor framework. Mm-hmm. And so they are having control, having confidence, having a relationship, and having active labor.

[00:12:44] Dr Hazel Keedle: Like what's involved in all of those?

[00:12:47] Dr Hazel Keedle: When I then write it for this book and what I was doing with the workshops is sometimes the, the things that we were in a factor from the woman's point of view was in a slightly different factor for the clinicians. Yeah.

[00:13:07] Dr Hazel Keedle: But some of the things are in different spots. So we talk about different things because it's from the clinician's point of view, or the clinicians need to know compared to a woman going through it herself. Mm.

[00:13:24] Dr Renee White: Well, it's just in the order, in the book, so that's not Oh, okay. I was like, oh, I'm very keen to know about this. Same,

[00:13:39] Dr Renee White: Gotcha. Okay.

[00:13:45] Dr Renee White: Yep, yep. No, no, no. That totally makes sense. And so when we're talking about clinicians, I mean, you know, I'm a doula. I'm not a birth doula, but I'm postpartum for sure. And obviously, you know, leading the charge here at Fill Your Cup. Uh, when we're talking about clinicians, is the book pitched specifically to, you know, midwives and obstetricians?

[00:14:24] Dr Hazel Keedle: Absolutely. There, there's a lot of doula love in there.

[00:14:28] Dr Hazel Keedle: Yeah. Doula the stories as well. Uh, the, you know, there's a couple of doula stories and they really blow my mind. So there's a lot, and there's actually even a lot in there that women can get from it as well. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:49] Dr Hazel Keedle: Yeah. By talking about some of these things and, and it just, it has a, just a different lens on stuff so anyone could read it because a lot of midwives and doctors and doulas found a lot of benefit in the first one, even though it was to women. And so the same with this one, and it's just some of the evidence is updated because that was one of the, you know, fun parts was to go in and see what's, what's been done since the last book.

[00:15:25] Dr Hazel Keedle: Mm. I've been part of that and I've published on obstetric violence. So there is that in there now. So there's a lot of stuff on birth experience study is now in there. But do those, there's a lot they can bring from it. I think it reinforces a lot of what they probably know.

[00:15:39] Dr Hazel Keedle: Um, and then also puts it in ways that they can use the evidence to support it as well. So you know, if you're having a conversation with a woman about models of care

[00:15:49] Dr Hazel Keedle: Then this will go through what, you know, more updated information on models of care, how that impacts women planning of vbac. Yeah. So each of those things, you know, it is not just an update. There's a lot, there's lots of different things in one book that's not in the other.

[00:16:27] Dr Renee White: Like this is what we're talking about. And that's where I feel like, uh, to your point, like that's where they get their confidence from. They're like, okay, yep. I'm making decisions based on, you know, what, what's out there in, in the data, so, okay.

[00:17:03] Dr Hazel Keedle: I just don't think I can write a fancy, to be honest. So a journalist said to me once, oh, Hazel, I really enjoyed reading your article and thank you. Like, like a journal article, right? Yeah. Like journal article. Yeah. You really wrote it in a way that everyone can understand and I'm thinking, I don't think I know another way.

[00:17:34] Dr Renee White: But that. I, I really appreciate that though, because you know, as someone who has read probably way too many journal articles, there are some that you kind of, you have to reread a paragraph like five times and, and then cross check to like figures and you're like, oh. What is the point that they're making here?

[00:17:58] Dr Renee White: It does

[00:18:12] Dr Hazel Keedle: But I'm a midwife. I do midwifery research and my area is women's experiences. Yeah, it was feedback, but now it's generally women's experiences, so therefore the people I would want to make the changes or to understand it are the women. Yeah. And the consumers and the support teams and the clinicians.

[00:18:53] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. I kind of wanna shift gears a little bit and talk about, you know, the current practices that we have. Like you've already said, you know, if we were relying straight on the data, why are we not having more VBACs in Australia? What do you think, I guess, are the biggest perhaps misconceptions you see clinicians having about women's motivations and fears regarding VBAC versus, you know, repeat cesareans?

[00:19:34] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:50] Dr Renee White: We we're not throwing anyone under the bus here people.

[00:20:07] Dr Hazel Keedle: Right. You get sick, you go see a doctor, doctor knows how to, how to understand your disease, and hopefully come up with some treatments. And in that model then by nature, the person who understands the body and knows what happens when it's sick, and then what needs treatment. The expert knowledge is held by that person in that profession.

[00:21:15] Dr Hazel Keedle: Mm-hmm. And we'll just really listen to what the women are saying as well. But you, you move the women from that community into the hospitals with the risk-based, we've got the expert knowledge and we understand your, your body more than you do.

[00:21:28] Dr Hazel Keedle: And it's all to do with illness. Then suddenly pregnancy, labor, and birth and postnatal is dealt as an illness. Yeah. And that has stayed within the hospital system and, and the hospital system has to get all of that un expectation, all those, uh, all those different things that can happen within a system that has to try and manage that risk.

[00:21:51] Dr Hazel Keedle: And it's almost like maternity is kinda like in the wrong spot at that point. Yes. Because you've then gotta fit in there that women are generally treated as risk and risky. Yeah. They've got just make more risk. And therefore if you actually end up with a, with a vaginal birth and you went into labor spontaneously, then you are kind of lucky. Yes. Like it was something that your body was capable to do.

[00:22:17] Dr Renee White: Mm.

[00:22:33] Dr Hazel Keedle: But they're now thinking, okay, now, now you know, we could in our little. Ordered system of a hospital that we try and order with things as much as possible.

[00:22:42] Dr Hazel Keedle: We will encourage you to have a repeat cesarean because it's all planned and elective surgeries are much easier to be managed and less risky than an emergency.

[00:23:09] Dr Hazel Keedle: Mm-hmm. And we can't control it. Mm-hmm. So it's like you can have this nice ordered repeat cesarean. Yeah. Even though women are then not told about the risks of the repeat Cesarean. And there are many Yes. Or feedback's really hard to control. Mm-hmm. And then if you're thinking about it from the viewpoint of the, I guess the dominant profession in that is risk, let's manage and maintain this risk.

[00:23:31] Dr Hazel Keedle: But also being aware that this isn't just a new issue like cesarean have been around for a very long time. Yes. And one of the things I enjoyed in, in this book. Which I didn't do in the first book as much. I really went into the history of cesareans. Ah. So I had to dive deep dive into what went on.

[00:23:57] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:24:28] Dr Hazel Keedle: The science has changed. Yeah. The outcomes have changed, but the attitude hasn't, and that attitude, not only did it get adopted within the medical community, but it actually got adopted in society too.

[00:24:40] Dr Hazel Keedle: So we call that, or or Bridget George Jordan used to call, call this authoritative knowledge. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:53] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Dr Renee White: Yes, absolutely.

[00:25:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:25:24] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:27] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:25:34] Dr Renee White: Yes and And it just becomes the dogma, right? Like

[00:26:10] Dr Renee White: Yeah. So how do you, how do you broach that kind of tension between, I guess, those. That kind of institution that we're butting up against versus individual women's choice. Like I almost feel like, you know, the people that that we support, you know, they're really open with me from the beginning and they're just like, you know, I'd love to try for a vbac.

[00:26:58] Dr Renee White: Like, let's be honest, I don't think,

[00:27:01] Dr Renee White: You think,

[00:27:08] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:27:15] Dr Hazel Keedle: Mm-hmm. And maybe I could challenge that and I give challenges. Like, come on, join me. And let's say we no longer need to have that belief anymore. Like

[00:27:25] Dr Hazel Keedle: And then get to know the knowledge, get to increase your knowledge and understanding. About VBAC and, and birth out to cesarean options, what the evidence actually then says.

[00:27:39] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:27:58] Dr Hazel Keedle: But if all you see is cesareans and repeat cesareans mm-hmm. And women happy with those experiences, then why would you care?

[00:28:07] Dr Hazel Keedle: Why would you? And that's where I've tried to go, well, you should, and these are the reasons why.

[00:28:14] Dr Hazel Keedle: So it's even got some research in there that came from my PhD and we just never fitted in any of the five papers that I published from it.

[00:28:38] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Okay.

[00:28:42] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:28:58] Dr Hazel Keedle: Yes. Why it's important for women is huge, and so I think we can change it, but we've also got a lot of changes in our models of care, and I think we need to keep that going.

[00:29:07] Dr Hazel Keedle: There's always gonna be, we've got a little bit of a backlash thing going on at the moment. Thankfully, professor Hannah Darwin has put some really good stuff out on that.

[00:29:20] Dr Renee White: Yeah, you do. You do that one over there.

[00:29:34] Dr Hazel Keedle: And right now we have had a bit of a rise here in Australia. About medical continuity of care, and it's fantastic. It's, we should be doing it. It's what the evidence says, it's what women want as well. Yeah. And certainly from the birth experience study, we can prove that as well.

[00:29:46] Dr Hazel Keedle: So with that, we are building up that relationship factor.

[00:29:50] Dr Hazel Keedle: And so, again, in this book, I tell them more about that. Why is it so important? Why should you, if you are an obstetrician, should you be invested in this actually? How's it gonna make your job better by doing? What you should be focusing on. We need you for the emergencies. We don't need you to be sort of supporting women with a philosophy that doesn't fit VBAC.

[00:30:16] Dr Renee White: Yeah. That's the thing, right? Isn't it? It's kind of like, uh, may maybe, maybe they won't. Well, okay, so how about this though?

[00:30:54] Dr Hazel Keedle: What saying, first of all, throw the book at their head up on it. Were you, I say risky for who? Yeah. What is the risk? Tell me the risk. What are you talking about? Oh, the risk of you trying to up to tell me about that. What does that actually look like? How many women would do that? And what increases that risk?

[00:31:25] Dr Hazel Keedle: Like, don't come and tell me. It's just too risky if you actually don't have the data. Yeah. Like what does that risk mean? Risk for who? Risky for you? 'cause you don't like doing it.

[00:31:34] Dr Hazel Keedle: Or is it me? And I really wish that, and something I brought in that first book for women is that. If there's choice available, and I know sometimes there isn't, especially in regional remote areas.

[00:31:52] Dr Renee White: Mm.

[00:32:05] Dr Hazel Keedle: And your first choice is for vaginal birth. Then you pick that team, go find that team.

[00:32:12] Dr Hazel Keedle: And then go question 'em and go, I don't really like your risk-based kind of thought. What do you mean about that? How are you actually gonna support me get thi to get this? Yes. If you're not, I don't wanna see you anymore.

[00:32:24] Dr Renee White: That's so true.

[00:32:35] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:38] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:43] Dr Renee White: Yes, that's so true. Because I have,

[00:32:51] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:33:05] Dr Hazel Keedle: And so the woman would, would book a, uh, a meet and greet. And you never charge 'em for it either. Mm-hmm. Things have changed a lot. Okay. This is going back a few years. So, uh, a bunch of us would come up to this woman and we're trying to sell our services. You, you know, like Yeah. Mutual connection at the same time as you know everything else and say all the great things that you want to, and it's, and it is down to the woman to choose.

[00:33:44] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:33:48] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:04] Dr Hazel Keedle: Yes. That person on the team, and there are some that are doing this. Yes. Like I chop out in Western Australia and there had these great people come along and one of them was an obstetrician and he shared that obstetrician shared. They were coming to the workshop because they were needing to get more confident about feedback.

[00:34:42] Dr Renee White: Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah, I, I absolutely bloody love that because I feel like, you know, I, eight years ago I was, I, I don't think I'd heard anyone specifically say anything about obstetricians. I was kind of like one of the first in my group to have a baby. So I had no, no background whatsoever. When I was reviewing, well, first of all, the context for me was I thought that you get what you pay for.

[00:35:53] Dr Renee White: And so that's where it went. But to your point, like it, there is this phenomenon in your head and I, it's, um, it is good marketing because it's this scarcity model, right, of like an obstetrician is only gonna take x amount of people per month. And you see these people who are like scrambling to get, you know, some celebrities OB because they think, oh, that person had them.

[00:36:45] Dr Renee White: And so it just doesn't pan out. And can you imagine if we flip the lid and we were like, actually, you know what? I'm going to interview you. Instead of going, calling up, going, oh, do you have any spots left? Uh, can I, can I get a spot? And to your point, like. You know, this usual model of, and I, I get why they do it because people are human, but this shared obstetrics kind of group where it's like you have your main person, but then you're seeing other people in the group because, and I didn't know this when I booked on the day.

[00:37:49] Dr Renee White: Right. And it just goes to your point,

[00:38:18] Dr Hazel Keedle: Is that the kind of person that you want? Because they're kind of just gonna come in, manage the situation, and then leave. Yeah, come in and leave and then come back in and then leave and then be there and catch a baby and take all the glory. But or do your cesarean. That's very different really to midwifery continuity of care where you have that same person through labor and birth.

[00:38:55] Dr Hazel Keedle: Yeah, but something it is that person isn't just gonna come and go like they're gonna be with you. During that time and your team can be bigger than just that.

[00:39:05] Dr Hazel Keedle: So we are about having a doula there who can be with you the whole time there.

[00:39:09] Dr Hazel Keedle: And knowing that that team is going to be, and how do they get on?

[00:39:13] Dr Hazel Keedle: Like if you've got an individual or a healthcare provider, then says, I don't work with doulas, I don't want you to have a doula, but that should be a massive red flag and you should be

[00:39:23] Dr Hazel Keedle: Like, you know what, I'm gonna go now and I'm not paying for my appointment. Thank you very much. Goodbye.

[00:39:31] Dr Hazel Keedle: I know you do. You don't go, oh, okay, well, I'll cancel the person. I've really developed a good relationship with

[00:39:44] Dr Hazel Keedle: And the evidence shows they're supportive. Yes. You know, you don't like it. Why is that? And that's the question we go, well, why, why? What don't you like about doulas? What's your problem with the doula? Do they threaten you?

[00:39:56] Dr Hazel Keedle: What is it? You don't like it all? Because they're strong women and they often say maybe they don't have to.

[00:40:24] Dr Hazel Keedle: And I'm like, hell yeah, that's good. You've got it. Like you are using the language of the team. This is my team. I'm the person doing this, and I'm choosing the people to be with me. And so I kind of want this book for people to, for clinicians to go, oh, I just I need to prove that I deserve a spot.

[00:40:44] Dr Hazel Keedle: I can be the best person for them in the profession that they're employing me for to, in, in, on that team so that I've got a worthy, I'm worthy of that spot.

[00:41:17] Dr Hazel Keedle: Top tip, we're going on the theme we've been saying, choose your team. Find the best team for you.

[00:41:29] Dr Hazel Keedle: Ah, my book

[00:41:38] Dr Hazel Keedle: there's, there's a lot that I kind of go through in there. So yeah, really knowing those four different factors and where you come with that, each one of those can explode into other research, other resources. Yeah. For example, connect with other women, and that can be through listening through podcasts, for example.

[00:42:00] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Absolutely. Final question, we borrow this one off, Brene Brown. What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:42:15] Dr Renee White: we, we don't give these questions to anyone. Oh. People like, ah, can you send some through? And I'm like, yep. I never send the rapid fire. I'm like, nah, I need spontaneous.

[00:42:45] Dr Hazel Keedle: So if I think about when I'm back home, which is a bit more messy mm-hmm. The things on there get knocked off continuously by my, by my pug. Mm-hmm. So I have to be very selective on there. And I have some lavender spray.

[00:42:57] Dr Hazel Keedle: For my bed, and from when I go to bed and to try and calm the pug down. What else do I have on there? I have some water, I have some medications and books come and go from there.

[00:43:10] Dr Hazel Keedle: Because I am, I've got ADHD so I struggle actually reading books, which is hilarious how I've written them. Yeah. Um, I'll have them sitting there and then my pile might just kind of move to my second bedside.

[00:43:29] Dr Hazel Keedle: The quick thoughts? I, I can dictate, but I like typing. Okay. I might write some notes, but I, I'm okay with typing and I think, yeah. I've done so much of it that yeah, I'm a very digital person. Okay. So I don't print stuff off. I Yeah, do that. I'll just do everything on the, on the screen and yeah. I'm okay with typing.

[00:44:04] Dr Renee White: What about audio books? Like is that more your jam or,

[00:44:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:44:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like what was going on then? And I have to go back. The only time I've done an audio book is. A long drive, like a four hour drive because I'm like,

[00:44:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Like, oh, that was pretty tree.

[00:44:53] Dr Hazel Keedle: Or I've had some serious podcasts, but again, they're not kind of going past like. An hour max.

[00:45:00] Dr Hazel Keedle: Of that. And there's usually like other stuff in the, in the middle of it. So that tends to get my attention, but even then I'll have to go back and re-listen. Yeah. There's a lot that goes on in the a d, adhd.

[00:45:17] Dr Hazel Keedle: Sure. So I've been working on a website where everything is Oh, so just go to hazel Keedle.com. Really simple. It's got, so this podcast interview will go on it. It's got a page with all the podcasts that I've been on.

[00:45:50] Dr Hazel Keedle: Mm-hmm. So they're all on there. All my journal articles are on there.

[00:45:54] Dr Hazel Keedle: And everything is in one space. So, and then my social media, my biggest one that I like to engage on is, um, Instagram. So that's just hazel Keedle with a blue tick. Yeah. And, uh, you can find me on there.

[00:46:13] Dr Renee White: I'm gonna say that you never thought you were gonna write, but you have.

[00:46:35] Dr Hazel Keedle: I was told at school I'd never make it to university. So, yeah.

[00:46:59] Dr Renee White: It's interesting how you talk about, you know, the team and the fact that. There is this movement now of continuity care. And I'll tell you, I, I spoke to, I did a discovery call with a first time mum this week, and one of the first things she said to me, she said, I didn't get into the midwifery practice group at the hospital, but I know from the research that continuity of care is the gold standard.

[00:47:54] Dr Renee White: So thank you so much for all of that. I really do appreciate it.

[00:48:12] Dr Hazel Keedle: So yeah, I'm very lucky. I get to do what I love. Yeah. And, and, uh, yeah. And I've got the writing bug now.

[00:48:26] Dr Renee White: If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well.

[00:49:02] Dr Renee White: Ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.