Innovative Startup Pirros Revolutionizes Detail Management for Design Firms

"We saw a lack of new software being developed for the design industry specifically."

• Peter Johann

Randy Wilburn sits down with Peter Johann, COO of Pirros, on the Zweig Letter podcast to explore the innovative intersection of technology and the design industry. Peter reflects on his career path that transitioned from structural engineering at KPFF to launching Pirros, a software company aimed at solving the prevalent issue of managing design details across projects. The discussion highlights the tedious and inefficient processes that design professionals often face when attempting to reuse previous details. Peter explains how Pirros' platform serves as a centralized library, allowing engineers and architects to quickly access and repurpose existing work, thereby streamlining their workflow and improving productivity.

The conversation also delves into the cultural shift necessary for firms to embrace new technologies. Peter notes that while many firms are eager to adopt innovative solutions, they often struggle with change management, as seasoned professionals may be resistant to altering long-standing workflows. Randy and Peter discuss the importance of fostering a mindset oriented toward innovation and adaptability, especially among younger professionals entering the industry. By sharing their experiences at Y Combinator, they illustrate how recognizing gaps in existing practices can lead to the development of impactful solutions that not only benefit individual firms but also contribute to a broader transformation within the design sector.

Listeners are encouraged to consider the implications of adopting new technologies in their own practices and the potential for significant time savings and improved efficiency. This episode serves as a compelling case study of how innovative thinking can drive change in the design industry, inspiring professionals to seek out and implement solutions that enhance their work processes and ultimately elevate the quality of their projects.

Takeaways:

• Peter Johann, COO of Pirros, transitioned from structural engineering to technology solutions for the design industry.
• Pirros addresses inefficiencies in detail management by providing a centralized, searchable database of design details.
• The importance of change management is crucial for firms adopting new software solutions like Pirros.
• Peter and his colleague identified a gap in the market for software solutions tailored to the design industry.
• Pirros not only saves time in detailed production but also promotes consistency and standardization across projects.
• Pirros's success lies in continuous product development based on client feedback and evolving needs.

Links referenced in this episode:

• pirros.com
• zweiggroup.com
• ATCO Trailers

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Mentioned in this episode:

ATCO

ATCO Structures

ATCO Trailers

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Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of the Zweig Letter podcast. I'm your host, Randy Wilburn, and I'm excited to be with you, as always.

We got a great episode for you today.

We had a previous guest on the podcast who said to us that it would be really great to maybe capture the thinking of a number of different firms, technological firms, and firms that serve the design industry, to be featured on the Zweig Letter podcast. And so, we've had Christopher Parsons on from Knowledge Architecture.

We've had the folks from Tonic DM on, and now we're having Peter Johann on from Pirros. And Peter is the COO of Pirros. Is that correct, Peter?

Correct.

Okay, that's what I thought.

All right, so Peter is the COO of Pirros, and he is joining us today on the podcast to talk a little bit about his background and his experience.

He is a design professional that has crossed over, if you will, into the IT or technology space, and is providing solutions for the design industry through his firm. You guys were also a part of Y Combinator, is that correct?

Yep. Absolutely. A year and a half ago.

Okay, awesome. We don't want to forget that. But anyway, we're just excited to have you on board today to join us on the Zweig Letter podcast.

I would love for you just to give a quick introduction to our audience and let them know a little bit about yourself and your background, and then we'll get into Pirros.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And thanks for having me on, Randy. I was a structural engineer by trade.

I worked at a structural engineering firm called KPFF, which is a big structural engineering firm up the West Coast. They have offices countrywide now.

I worked there for a while in Laden before starting a company with one of my colleagues, Pirros, which is a software solution for design professionals, specifically for structural engineers and architects. And so we noticed an issue that we were having within our company at KPFF.

I was working on this technology design group with one of my colleagues who I had gone to college with as well. And we noticed that there wasn't really a solution to this problem across the industry, so we started our own company to address this problem.

We started it about two years ago and went through Y combinator about a year and a half ago, and it's been off to the races since then. So that's a little background on myself.

I love that. And I love the fact that you had an itch and you scratched it with your solution.

Can you maybe walk us through the problem that you recognized and how you have created Pirros to solve that problem?

Absolutely. So Pirros is a detail management platform. So what we do is we create detailed libraries and a detailed database for these firms.

So details which I'm sure people in the design industry are very familiar with, a beam to call connection, a wall assembly. There are hundreds of them on projects. A lot of them can be reused from project to project.

We don't need to redesign the same beam to column connection for every project.

And what we noticed is that what ended up happening with a lot at these firms was that there was no really good way to manage these hundreds of details across all the different projects that were being produced. So people had to spend a lot of time looking through previous projects to find the right details to reuse on their current projects.

And a lot of times they were redesigning the same detail over and over because they didnt know where to look. They hadn't worked on a project with that same detail. But one of their colleagues across the office had done it two years ago.

What our software does is it's able to capture all of the different details across the different projects, put it into one centralized and searchable location to provide efficient and reliable access to any of those details so it streamlines the detailed production process within these design firms.

So in terms of just doing all of that, did you find that it smoothed out your internal process before you actually started Pirros and started doing this?

So, not really. I mean, that was part of our software development group.

We were developing in-house tools to combat the problems that we were facing or to help our firm out. And we got to this problem and it was a little bit too big of an endeavor to do in-house what we realized.

Also, it wasn't just a problem that our firm was experiencing, it seemed like a very similar problem across companies.

And that's why we decided to leave the company and start this company to service not just KPFF but other structural engineering firms and architectural firms as well. It's a tool that we wanted to use when we were at KPFF but, of course, we developed it after so we never got to use it.

But now, of course, KPFF is using it and really enjoying the solution.

So my question to you would be, as I'm listening to you share this, is simply why? I mean, you could have done anything, right?

You're an engineer by training classically. What wired you differently to decide that, you know what, I'm going to switch gears now and stop designing for the built environment, but design and augment and create something that serves the built environment. How did you decide to make that switch? I know that's not an easy switch.

Yeah, no, it's a great question. I think it was a combination of a bunch of different factors. But first and foremost, both me and my colleague really liked structural engineering.

We liked the design side of it.

But I think that we saw the trajectory of our career within the structural engineering industry and were like, hey, we have an opportunity to do something thats really exciting to us; start our own company. I think that a lot of people can't start their own company within structural engineering.

They start their own structural engineering practice. But we saw this as an opportunity to maybe jumpstart that, and we could start our own company at a pretty young age and we thought that this was the best avenue for us to be successful with starting our own company.

You know, and it's funny you say that because I know I've been involved with this industry for a long time.

And one of the challenges that we're always talking with leaders about in the C-Suite and otherwise in a multitude of design firms is that you have to create a way for your younger people to see what the future looks like.

Was it that you saw that the trajectory that you were originally on as a structural engineer, the timing and everything else was going to be markedly different than had you pivoted the way that you did to start Pirros and go that route? I have nothing but love for your approach to this.

I think you epitomize your generation and the fact that you see a problem, you want to provide a solution for it, and then you go all in, which is not the way things might have been had you been born 20 years earlier.

You might have just said, you know what, I'm just going to put my time in. I'm going to be a structural engineer. I'm going to work my way to the top, and it's going to take me 15 or 20 years to get there.

But that's not the case for your generation.

And I would love for you just to speak to that mindset, because I think it is a mindset that is sometimes lost by the graying leadership of the design industry, and you are the epitome of that.

First of all, I applaud you for the work that you guys are doing with Pirros. I always tell people to go after what you want, and you guys did that.

But I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that because I think there are some kernels of truth in there for leadership to take on and think about as they're training this next generation of design professionals.

Absolutely. I mean, it's really interesting. I think you touched on it. I don't think 20 years ago this would be an option for us.

And I think that's what we also recognize. We had this very unique opportunity and the stars kind of aligned for us to do this.

We were both in the same mindset and both really bought into this problem and this solution, and it was the right point in our lives. But also, there are so many resources at our disposal now to start a company, and especially like a software company.

There are a million reasons why we wouldn't be able to do it 20 years ago.

But also, I think just the mindset of, like, this is something that a lot of people are doing now and a lot of people are doing at a younger age.

My initial hesitation to it was, hey, I'm in my late twenties, I don't have nearly enough expertise or experience or anything to start my own company.

And I think that's a mindset that a lot of people have and a hesitation to why people will start their own thing earlier rather than, or later rather than earlier, and doing kind of a bunch of research before I actually realized, hey, this is actually the right time. This is the perfect time.

I have the flexibility and the opportunity to start my own company rather than I need to wait 10, 15, 20 years to get that experience. And I think that is a trend that we're seeing a lot these days.

I mean, even you mentioned the Y combinator accelerator, startup accelerator program that we went through, the size of that program has, especially the number of applicants has grown exponentially in recent years.

And like being a startup founder now is so much more mainstream than it was ten years ago, even five years ago, I'd say. It's certainly a trend that we're seeing, and I think that definitely contributed to us seeing that this was a realistic opportunity and not just a pipe dream for us at this current time.

Yeah, I love that.

What I hear you saying is that, and maybe this would have been the case, that certainly as a 20-something, opening up your own structural engineering firm would seem like a daunting task compared to starting a software company and maybe following a road less traveled as far as that's concerned.

I'm curious to know, when you were in Y Combinator and there were a lot of different companies serving different verticals and different industries, were there any other companies that had ideas like you had to serve the design industry or were you one of one?

Yeah, very, very few. With a Y combinator, it is one of the biggest accelerator programs. They have two batches a year; they call it batches.

And within our batch, there were probably 250 companies. And I want to say we were either the only one or maybe one of two that were focusing on the design space.

I think there were a few other construction tech companies, but 80% of the companies right now are AI for this, AI for that, for sales, for fintech, for developer tools. Very few are focused on the design industry.

And that was also going back to your first question, that was part of what we noticed and why we were really motivated to do this. We saw a lack of new software being developed for the design industry specifically, and therefore there were a lot of easy opportunities. And it's part of the reason why we wanted to do this in the first place. It was surprising to us that this solution didn't already exist.

And it makes a little bit more sense to us now.

It's not a sexy industry for the technology industry to produce solutions. I think a lot of these solutions require an in-depth understanding of the workflows within these firms, and therefore it requires the expertise of someone who has worked in the industry before. And again, not a lot of people that go into the industry end up going into tech.

So there are a bunch of different reasons why there are not a lot of startups and not a lot of new technology companies that are catering to the AEC industry.

As I'm sitting here hearing you talk, I'm sure there's somebody that's going to watch this and it's going to say, Peter was so brave to step out of his comfort zone to do this. A couple of questions that I have for you. One is, did you feel like you were wired for this type of business, or was it more that you just figured things out as you went and you knew the problem and you figured out a way to just come up with a solution in an area that you didn't have as much comfort and experience in as you had as a civil engineer.

Absolutely. I think this is a little different mindset than my partner.

I think my partner had always for a longer period thought about doing something like this. For me, I had never really thought that this was ever going to be my path. I just stumbled into it. And at the very beginning eyes wide open. I was more just being excited for the opportunity to do this rather than feeling like I was the right person for it.

That's part of building a company, you can't really know, and you can't be good at it before you actually do it. The only way to progress in your journey is to actually just go ahead and do it.

And so I think I've developed into someone who is a good fit for our type of company, but certainly wasn't one going in.

Yeah.

I imagine that you all probably have to pinch yourselves every day when you come into work, right? Getting to do what you're doing now. Not only are you able to exercise your skillset, your background and experience as a structural engineer, but you're also able to work on something totally brand new. Is KPFF now a client? Yep. Okay. All right.

So basically, firms that you were working with or competing against while you were with them as you created Pirros, have now become clients of yours and companies that you are providing your solutions to.

Yeah, absolutely. A bunch of structural engineering firms on the West Coast are now using it that compete with KPFF.

You know, Daikon Cole, Walter Primor, Buhler Engineering, John A. Martin, a bunch of them. And they're all using the solution. And partly because, it was just something that did not exist in the industry.

And again, still really don't have a direct competitor to it, which is interesting, but something that was a need for these firms, which is why these firms are adopting it.

So are you and your partner waiting for the other shoe to drop in terms of competitors or what are you doing to distance yourself from everybody else since you are an early adopter and a one of one, if you will?

Yeah, there are two things. One, we're continuing to develop the product, talking to our customers.

You can't have the mindset that Y Combinator instilled in us and spend two years building a product. Instead, build what is called an MVP—Minimum Viable Product—and get people to start using it. Their feedback will guide you toward developing the best product. It's what your customers and users want and are going to get value from. So the one side is developing the product through our customers.

Instead of just saying, hey, we think this is the right way to do it, let's talk to our customers and figure out the way they want to do it. And then the other way we are differentiating is we are just growing our customer base.

Our tool inherently is something that does cause a little bit of an initial hurdle to get in. You have to build out your database with all your firms' information. But once firms are up and running, then it's a very sticky tool. It's not something that you're just going to be able to switch off quickly.

And so just building up that customer base is providing us with a really good foundation within the architectural and engineering industry.

So tell me, in terms of the way that your solution works, what kind of time are you saving your clients when they utilize Pirros?

Yeah, absolutely. It's twofold. So it's on the detailed production process.

And I'd say this is where the majority of time is saved in terms of not having to search, like I mentioned, not having to track down different details, searching across different projects. It's a lot of word of mouth to find the right details.

So asking your colleagues or your project manager or someone at your firm, hey, have you done this specific detail before and then having to dig through your company server and three different PDF sets of different projects to track down the right details.

And then also you have to track down the revit model, which is where these details are designed. Open up that revit model, upgrade that revit model, and download it into a new project.

That all is a a very time-consuming task for producing details on drawings that we reduce. And then, like I also mentioned, you're finding closer starting point details.

So instead of finding a wall assembly detail that is 50% of the way there, and you have to spend another half an hour modifying and then tweaking it. Let's get a detail that's 80% of the way there. We could provide reliable access to those details that maybe you wouldn't ever come to because you wouldn't know where to look.

That's all on the detail production side. And then what a lot of these firms end up doing is it's not like they're going through past projects for every detail.

A lot of these firms try to build a detail library without our software. It's a lot more of a manual and time-consuming task to compile these details from different projects into a central location.

And there's nothing to help them with that process. Our tooling helps them build a more refined group of details to create standardization across their projects.

Okay, so I hear that. And that makes perfect sense.

Why reinvent the wheel when you've created a repository for how people can set this thing up fast when it comes to putting together the detailed production process? And I love you saying build a library without your software, which a lot of companies do.

So when a company comes to you and they have shown you that they have done that, how do you then show them how Pirros can help them avoid that in the future?

Yeah. So building the library, it's not a one-time process.

It's a constantly evolving and dynamic thing because these firms are constantly producing new details.

And so say a firm has spent a couple of years ago to build out their library, and that's great, but details constantly get updated. There are new code cycles. There are changes in the field and different stuff arises.

So you're constantly updating the details in that library, and then also there are constantly new details being produced that need to be added to that library. And so the issue with this library, we have one BFF, is that it's a lot of effort and time to update and manage.

And then also they are just limited to a subset of details so it's never going to capture everything.

There's always going to be going back to past projects for details, which, as I described before, is a very inefficient and unreliable process. And so the goal is to reduce going back to past projects as much as possible and that's what our software does.

When firms successfully implement our software, they're going to build out what I call a vetted library of details; a library in the traditional sense.

But then also if those details are not in that library already, then at least they'll be able to search through their past projects within our platform and not waste all that time looking through their projects on their server.

Yeah, I love it. I love it.

So I'm curious to know, what are some of the feedback that you've received from some of your newer clients when they fully embrace all that Pirros has to offer? What are you usually hearing from clients like, where have you been all my life? Besides that, what are they saying?

Yeah, I mean, I think a big part, we see a wide range between our customer base.

We have some customers that are using the platform autonomy, and we have some other customers that are taking a little bit more to activate their user base. And so when we talk to some of our customers that are being really successful with it, we're like, hey, how did you get everybody to use it?

And they're just like, well, it's just way easier to use your software. It's almost like we ask them, why do you enjoy using our software?

And they're like, isn't it obvious why, it's just an obvious solution to an obvious problem. Then on the other side, I think the big challenge, and this is, I wouldn't say as specific to our software specifically.

It's more with workflow tools and software platforms. Our software is inherently something that we need to get everybody within a firm to start using and that change management and initial adoption. When someone has done a certain workflow or process the same way their entire career for 20 years, it's going to require a little bit of activation energy to get them to change their ways. I mean, all humans are creatures of habit.

And so I think that when we get feedback about our software and we have had companies that haven't renewed our service, and it's not because they haven't enjoyed the software, it's because they haven't figured out how to get everybody to change their workflow.

And so that's a big initiative within our company and it requires a little bit of effort upfront. It's always worth it on the backend because once we get people using the platform and then they're getting the value from it and everybody really enjoys it because again, it's kind of an obvious solution to an obvious problem.

And I gotta imagine, what you were describing is like a churn when you lose clients that you already had.

I would imagine that your churn rate is probably a lot lower than a normal software company just by what you're doing and the problems that you're solving with Pirros.

So I think that more than anything else it's exciting and it shows the need for more firms like Pirros to pop up that provide augmented solutions for design professionals.

Absolutely, absolutely.

I think the churn rate is something that our tools, like I mentioned before, inherently sticky because we're uploading a lot of information. We have yet to have a firm churn, because they're like, hey, I don't like this software, or people didn't want to use it or had bad experiences. We don't have a good reason why we're not renewing. We just didn't get our users to use it in the first place to even experience it.

And so that's always the challenge and especially the challenge with us.

I think that is not a unique situation for the design industry because design professionals tend to wring their hands a lot when going through and trying new things, even if it is the best thing since sliced bread. It's like, the constant refrain that we've always heard, and I've heard it since '97, 'but that's not how we've always done things'. And when you hear people say that, it's like, here we go again. It's that old wine skin mentality. It never changes.

And so this industry is going to continue to evolve.

And especially the generation that comes after you starts to matriculate through the design industry. I think we're going to see more and more change take place and people will embrace it faster. So where you say, oh, well, it's going to take five to seven years for Pirros to get to a level of adoption that's across the board. In ten years, that might be two to three. I would imagine that's going to get faster and faster.

Yeah, I think a big part of that is these firms are going to have systems in place for change management. And I think we're seeing this at larger firms right now and they're placing a lot of importance on that, but a lot of the firms that we sell to, 20, 50, 100, 200 employees, they don't have that system in place. We're placing our emphasis on evaluating the software. We think the software is going to be good.

We buy the software and then they think their job that, the people that are tasked with implementing the software, they think their job's done and they don't recognize or have a system in place for that change management.

And I think that people are going to recognize how important that is because a lot of these solutions are really good solutions for their firm. But the missing piece of the puzzle is that change management and they'll recognize that it's just as important as the valuation.

We can evaluate a tool and get it all right. If we dont implement it properly, we are not getting any value.

So I think these firms are just going to get better at it and recognize the importance of it more.

So in your market research, I'm curious to know, have you found that larger firms have an in-house thing that they have duct-taped together before or they don't have anything at all?

No. There are other software that can do something adjacent to what we do. They're called Content Management Systems and most of these firms have those.

They're not real solutions to detail management. We talked about a detail library before.

They're just a way to host their existing detail library, but they're still looking through past projects a ton for details. It's still a very manual process to build out that library. And these firms are facing all the same challenges that our current customers do.

And so that part takes a longer time and needs to be done a little bit more carefully.

I think design professionals and companies should really hear that. It's like when you were growing up and you went to the library and you would have to go to the reference section to pull out books and information like that.

You guys have and are, for the clients that you have, are creating larger and larger reference sections where you don't have to go back and reinvent the wheel every time, but that everything is there.

And so one thing builds upon another and it just makes for a much better work experience and it also allows you to utilize probably your time a lot more efficiently.

Absolutely. I think that's a great analogy. It's called a detail library.

And back in the day, they had a book that you flip through of details and you can think of it just like a normal library. You have to go and ask the person what section it's on and you have to go to the section and look through the shelf.

You have to then find the detail or the book that you're looking for. And then what our software is, it's like Amazon.

You just come and you search for the book you're looking for and you find it and you click buy. And, in our version, you put into your project. And so it's kind of a great analogy for what our software does.

And when you say click buy, I'm saying it's probably more like one click, where it's so easy. All you have to do is click and it's done.

And then you just get a notice that this is going to be shipped to you in the next day or so depending on where you are in the country. Well, this has been great. I really appreciate you giving us an inside look and view at Pirros.

I'm going to grab my popcorn and sit on the sidelines and watch you guys continue to grow because I think your story is unique, but it won't be for long.

And what I mean by that is there are a lot more design professionals are going to hear what you're doing and see the examples that you're setting and say, you know what, that's what I want to do.

And it's not that they're going to leave the industry, but they're going to be industry-adjacent and are going to find ways to serve this industry that will allow design firms to just be more efficient in the future because that's really what you're doing at Pirros.

You're creating opportunities that didn't exist a few years ago.

And so I can only imagine what things are going to look like in the next three to five years as you probably incorporate AI into the workflow and create new opportunities. So it's going to be exciting to see you guys grow this.

I appreciate you having a little transparency and sharing about your transition out of a traditional design firm into a startup that serves the industry. Some people are leaving this industry, but you don't necessarily have to leave the industry to serve it.

I don't want that, especially the young people that are listening to this. I want you to hear that very clearly.

I think Peter's story is an important one, and it's one that can be mimicked and copied in the future for other people that have really good ideas and ways that they can provide services and products that can help this industry work more efficiently. So I just want to thank you so much for sharing your story with us today.

If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to connect with you?

Yeah, absolutely. LinkedIn is always a good method. Email me. We are on various forms, but I think LinkedIn is probably the best way to reach out.

And what's the Pirros website?

Pirros.com

Okay, perfect. Pirros.com. We'll make sure we put all of that in the Show Notes so that folks can reach out to Peter and learn a little bit more.

I would certainly encourage you to connect with him on LinkedIn.

And if you have some questions after watching this episode, just say I heard about you on the Zweig Letter podcast, and I'd love to just pick your brain on this or that. Don't pick it too hard, because he's got a lot of work to do with Pirros.

But certainly, we appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to connect with us.

And as I said, one of the things is we are aggregating a number of episodes, including the one with Christopher Parsons and others that are serving this industry. An exemplary way to create more awareness.

Because I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people that watch this and say they have never never heard of these guys and I need to know them.

And so we'll make sure that you're able to get in contact with Peter and also in contact with Pirros to learn how they might be able to solve some of the problems internally that you have within your design firm. So, Peter Johann, thank you so much for joining us today on the Zweig Letter podcast.

We appreciate it, and we will certainly be in touch to see how things continue to progress. And we may need to have a part two to this down the line as you continue to expand and grow this fabulous startup.

So we wish you nothing but continued success. And we want to thank you again for taking the time to be with us today.

Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on.

Absolutely. Well, there you have it, folks. We appreciate you sticking with us and watching this episode of the Zweig Letter podcast.

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Check out the latest and greatest stories like the one we just shared today with Peter Johann from Pirros and the amazing work that they're doing. It's all about the design industry.

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We will see you back here very soon with another new episode of the Zweig Letter podcast. I'm your host, Randy Wilburn, and we'll see you soon. Peace.

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