Do you want a sneak peak into the potential future of work?

In episode 200 of the Happier at Work podcast, I welcome back Bhushan Sethi, a thought leader in the future of work, for the fourth time. The episode is a treasure trove of insights on adapting to the evolving landscape of work, embracing diversity, and the importance of continuous learning. 

Bhushan emphasises the need for reskilling individuals in the face of technological advancements such as AI. He sheds light on the challenges and opportunities brought about by digital transformation and the importance of lifelong learning. The episode touches upon the impact of AI on job roles, the need for open communication, and Bhushan's thoughts on managing global polarisation.

The conversation delves into the Skills First report, co-created with the World Economic Forum, which advocates for skills-based hiring to promote diversity and broaden access to talent pools. Bhushan discusses the pressing need for addressing biases, fostering allyship, and advocating for diversity in the workplace, especially for women and individuals from diverse backgrounds.

I am thrilled to have reached episode 200, and I am so grateful to Bhushan Sethi for sharing his invaluable expertise with us. The episode is a captivating exploration of the present and future of work, brimming with practical insights and thought-provoking discussions.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• Adapting to the evolving landscape of work, embracing diversity, and the importance of continuous learning. 
• The need for reskilling individuals in the face of technological advancements such as AI
• The challenges and opportunities brought about by digital transformation and the importance of lifelong learning
• The pressing need for addressing biases, fostering allyship, and advocating for diversity in the workplace, especially for women and individuals from diverse backgrounds.

Connect with Bhushan

LinkedIn: Bhushan Sethi

Twitter: @Bhushansethi1

Tiktok: bhushansethi3

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

Website: https://happieratwork.ie 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happieratwork.ie/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happieratwork.ie

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappierAtWorkHQ

Twitter: https://twitter.com/HappierAtWorkHQ 

Bhushan’s Previous Episode:

https://happieratwork.ie/150-navigating-the-new-business-landscape-with-bhushan-sethi/

Welcome back, Bhushan, to the Happy at Work podcast. This is, the 3rd time I think we've had a live chat and the 4th time technically that you've been on the Happy at Work podcast. What started as a slight joke actually getting you on for episode 50 because that was our original conversation and then a highlight episode 100 and then, another conversation for episode 150 and now for another conversation for episode 200. You're so welcome back, and I'm so looking forward to having this conversation with you.

Actually Delighted to be at be back. We have a great New York morning, but I'm sure we'll brighten that up. And I'm looking forward to this discuss discussion.

Brilliant. And I think we we kinda touched on some of the topics before we started recording, but I would love to know a little bit more about this, the Skills First report that was done in conjunction with the World Economic Forum. Do you wanna maybe talk to us about maybe the actually the reason behind it and some of the highlights from the report.

Yep. Sure. We've been working with the World Economic Forum for over a year now, act On the concept of of skills first hiring and how firms start using skills as the currency not just to hire people, act But also to redeploy them in their organizations. We use terms like skills as a currency and as opposed to Rigid job descriptions and qualifications and experiences that really, shorten the labor pools and and kind of, shorten the number of candidates you could have available, based on education, college degree, years of experience, etcetera. Act So skills based hiring is basically to say, what skills do I need for a role? If I wanna hire for wealth management in a bank, act What skills do I need? And and it's not necessary that that person needs to have got that experience in banking. Act They could have got really good client relationship skills by working in sales in a different industry. They could they could learn finance actually certifications as opposed to, say, accounting degrees. And so really looking at how do we broaden access to labor pools act And therefore bringing people that have more diverse characteristics, diverse socioeconomic backgrounds, which is really important around the world and especially in the US where I live, act And also kind of diverse from other areas.

Maybe women who have kinda taken time out to to raise kids, people from marginalized communities, actually Refugees, etcetera. So the concept is, how do we broaden access to labor? How do we because we do have labor actually skills shortages around the world still. How do we make sure that we're creating opportunity and access for people act from different backgrounds. And in doing that, how do we make organizations more agile in the world of act AI, more green jobs, more people needing to reskill as more and more jobs get digitized, and we'll I'm sure I'm sure we'll talk about that. Act How do you actually bring people in and and build those skills on the job? So so that was the that's the concept. We're very proud of the report. We've got lots of great examples of actually companies in there that are doing bits around skills based hiring. And then the other piece around this is there's a skills based organization, revolution that's actually really starting around corporations, and that's really talking about now people are in organizations.

How do we access them through mobility programs act To have other jobs. How do we create things called talent marketplaces in companies to say, you know, Aoife's done a couple of years in sales. How about if actually wants to go and work on product development or if wants to go on marketing. And how do we migrate her across the organization act Based on the skills that she's got and how do we point her to either development opportunities, learning opportunities, mobility opportunities so she can get that experience and be actually qualified for that role. So there's really 2 2 components of it. There's how do we bring people in? And then when people are in, how do we move people around organizations where we can?

Yeah. Act I love that. Any thoughts on some of the blockers that might stop people from kinda using using this type of skills first approach?

Yep. Well, firstly, I think it's important to say that Skills 1st doesn't replace deep specialist skills. Actually If we want if we want to ride the airplane, we still need pilots. We still need pilots that have certain years of experience and certain kind of, you know, obviously, actually Credentials. The most specialist heart surgeons are still gonna have to have gone to med school and gone and and got, you know, the requisite training. Act legal legal authorities around the world are still gonna want lawyers to be qualified based off of their, their education and act their legal requirements. So it doesn't replace all of those deep specialists. But some of the resistance we get from organizations act are gonna be the classic manager who wants to hire people in their own image, people that have gone to certain schools, people that feel that there's a traditional, act A traditional route into banking or technology, or blue chip organizations.

And so actually It's really taking a leap of faith on the side of of leaders who have maybe, grown up in a different way to say nontraditional backgrounds are okay. Actually People that have potential and adjacent skills are okay. It's incumbent on us to create the onboarding and the training and development opportunities. Act And if and not every one of them those hires is gonna work out, but it's all about how do we give people opportunity, how do we access more people in the in the labor force.

we've talked about in the past, demographics are not on our side. We have population decline in a in a number of the parts of the developed world. We still have an abundance of jobs. And with AI, there's potentially new industries that are created that we haven't even thought about, act new business models, and there'll be new skills and jobs required. So it's incumbent on all of us in our roles in business, in education, in parenting to kind of actually To take a leap of faith in this area. But, yeah, there will be some traditional blockers as you say.

Yeah. No. It's I think it's interesting. You brought up this concept a couple of times of labor shortages actually done skill shortages. Now do you want to explain that for someone who's a little bit, I'm trying to find the right words now actually for this, but he maybe doesn't fully understand. Like, I don't understand how is there labor shortages? Like, I don't understand. Why can't we just teach people the skills that they need to do the job. So can you explain a little bit more about how that came about and what we can do about it and what it really means?

And it might feel like actually an oxymoron when we see headlines of firms making layoffs as well. I mean, here in the US, we have unemployment that's still lower than 4%. Actually So you could say that in the US, we have a fully fully employed America. However, you still see you still see headlines around layoffs in the act sector because of overhiring. You see it in financial services. But that is a small percentage of the overall workforce. When we talk to clients in act Labor intensive industries. Think about, coffee shops.

Think about, retail stores. Think about, act Truckers and delivery, delivery folks. There's still a shortage of people willing to do that kind of work. Actually And why? Because there is still an ability to do lots of kinds of work in a more flexible way from home. And and so we we have act We have labor shortages in in terms of in the number of open positions economically versus, act the number of people seeking employment is always skews higher to the number of open positions. So, again, it might feel counter act counterintuitive to the data that you read in the headlines. But that's the labor shortages piece.

Mhmm.

But the real damaging risk for society act Is we have labor shortages, but we also have skills mismatches, and that's where the skills based hiring gets in. So Yeah. As act As we automate more work in a manufacturing environment, as we automate more work in a contact center environment when you're making those actually calls to your airline or your HR call center, there's gonna be opportune there's gonna be displacements of those people, and those people are gonna have to re a skill to do other work, and that work is typically gonna involve some form of technology, whether it's Gen AI, Other parts of AI, basic automation, climate technology,

they're

gonna have to learn new skills. So we haven't got enough people in the labor force, act And jobs are going to be impacted, especially by AI. And therefore, we need to kind of figure out that skills mismatch to say act The people that have been doing very labor intensive roles that haven't used computers and haven't are not knowledge workers.

Act

Yeah. We have to figure out whether it's business, whether it's academic academia, whether it's government or all three, how we can actually help them with the reskilling that they need so we have act A more employed society, and and and and we have kind of the ability to get everyone to participate. And it doesn't put a drain on, act on state and doesn't drive kind of civil unrest and

Yeah.

And, frankly, increasing income inequality, which is act Which is rising again in in in much of the world, especially here

in the US. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit more about this idea of skills matching. And are there any technologies? Act I I know of some that exist, but maybe in kind of small pockets. But that can facilitate that type of thing. So understanding what someone's, whether whether it's their innate abilities, the strengths that they have. Like, talk to me a little bit more about how what that is and how that might work in reality.

Yeah. Most of the major HR technology vendors that big firms will be using have have these modules where you can actually actually Go in and assess your skills, understand, kind of what skill requirements there are for the job. Actually Some organizations have have invested in building their own or leveraging this concept of a talent marketplace where you would see open jobs very much like you would actually an external site, and you'd say what skill requirements, are there. The challenge in organizations with that is just maintaining the data. Act There's so many organizations that have those skills modules of those HR systems and have said we're not fully using it act Because we're not asking people to go and do a skills assessment and update it kind of every year. Organizations do that in act in times when they have to. So I work with a lot of financial institutions that have had regulatory, requirements actually said, we wanna understand your risk and compliance teams and your business teams and what skills they have because we think they're systemic risks, or we think that's the root cause

actually some of your issues. So

people do it out of false external necessity. K. But it but people are loathed to kind of actually Go in and and maintain kind of all all of that data.

Yeah. Yeah. Because it does it rely kind of on the individual to input that or to take an assessment act to measure their level of skill. And they're like, I have enough to do in my day job. Why do I want to do this? You know? Without the bigger picture thinking of this could actually help my career and and helped me to be happier at work at the end

of the day. Yes. Absolutely. It's a real commitment on the on behalf of organizations to be all in around. Act You need to maintain these. We're gonna use these in deployment. We're gonna use this in hiring. Some people we're gonna we're gonna link it actually learning plans, and we're gonna invest in your learning.

And you could maybe even get external credentials around some of these some of these technical or or human skills. Act but as you'll see in the report, there are organizations that are leading the charge on this and and have done different aspects of what I'm describing. So it's not act It's not all doom and gloom. I think there's a lot that can be learned from

from the report. Brilliant. I love that. One of the other things that struck me, and you have mentioned it earlier, is this idea of removing the necessity for having a degree. Like that if I go back 25 years or, you know, shown my age here now. But go back 20 something years to when I came out of college. And it it was pretty much a rep prerequisite for any sort of acknowledged working job that you were looking for at that time. You have to have a degree.

In a lot of cases, people are looking for masters, and I see requirements for MBAs for jobs that are, act in my opinion, maybe not that senior. How are we gonna shift our mindset around this requirement, especially given that the people in actually quite seen your roles now. Would it have that requirement when they were entering the labor force?

So in our in PwC UK, they've, they've, they've got a program, and they've removed degree requirements. Act I know some other accounting firms have in the UK as well. We're gonna get there by just more more success stories, to say act We're we're not saying that people shouldn't go to college, but what we are saying is there's a lot of people that don't go to further education today. Act In the US, it's very expensive for people to actually go into Yeah. Into certain certain universities, and the cost of higher education at the high at the top level is act It's it is growing. Yeah. And so if you don't have that

you know, 20 years later.

Absolutely. Rising in student debt, so we we all see the headlines. Act And so what we're saying is we just need more success stories. And those people that, either don't have the opportunity or don't see the need act And wanna get into the workforce for whatever reasons.

The

but there needs to be opportunities. But but, yeah, we're still gonna have I act I mean, I still I teach at NYU, so we're still gonna have advanced degrees. We're still gonna have people that want to, you know part of going to college is act It's learning, but it's also learning about yourself as you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm learning how to learn and learning how to disseminate information and consolidate information. One of the things that that kinda came up when I was doing my master's is actually kind of the future of academia and how maybe it's not bundled into a a degree as such, but you pick various different modules that will support you act on what it is that you aspire to become. So you kind of almost build your own course that it adds up to x number of credits, act but that it's not kind of a fixed like, you have to do all of these different things, but it it becomes very much choosing different, credited subjects to actually kind of built our own, essentially.

Yeah. And we see that in organizations where I think what you're describing is you curate your own learning path.

Act

we're seeing that a lot with AI where companies are coming to us to say, how do we actually teach people about Gen AI so they can apply it to their jobs actually think about these things that are called use cases and how we actually help them for free up time and use use the Gen AI act so that they that they have access to knowledge so they can actually be faster in their roles, whether they're in finance, whether they're in legal, whether they're in accounting. Act But learning AI starts with learning about digital, learning about data, learning about regulation Yeah. Understanding the business process. There's a lot of curated learning you're gonna have to apply. It's not just learning the technical skills.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, maybe let's talk about that. What are some of the digital skills that are acquired. How do people take that 1st step towards becoming aware of what it is that they need to do?

Act Yep. Eva, my my headphones have just gone out. Are you still hearing me through the microphone, or do I

I still hear you through the microphone, but I did hear myself echo, and I wondered what that actually

Yeah. Can I just take 1 minute to just get another pair of headphones?

Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. No problem.

Let me because it was these won't charge. Act 2 seconds.

Act act Yeah.

I'm just gonna pair these as well.

Okay. Can you hear me now?

Alright. That should,

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Act

Sorry. That should work.

Can you hear me now?

Was it? Yes. I can. Can you hear me?

Yeah. I can. Yeah. Yeah.

Act Alright. We're working. Sorry about that. Great. So

Apologies to your editing team. Exactly. Yes. Thanks, Amanda. So we were talking about this idea of understanding what those digital skills are and how does someone even start to

think about, well, what is what is required.

Yeah. So we're seeing that, we we were talking about kind of how you curate learning.

Actually

And in the gen in the Gen AI environment where people are understanding, how do I access these large language models that have different training data? Actually How do I actually create it's called prompt engineering. How do I actually create prompts to say, you know, how do I solicit large amounts act information on case law or, on on accounting policy, or on, you know, how to, act Had to kind of look at look at credit policy for my customers. How do I access that information, and kind of be more efficient? So act To learn Jain AI and apply it to jobs, you have to really understand business processes. You have to understand the customer outcomes you're trying to drive. You're gonna have to understand how to build the right act use cases and prompt engineering. And so it uses a lot of skills around digital and data analytics and business skills, and experimentation and agility, and measuring outcomes. So back to the point around learning, we're seeing it even in the Gen AI act Revolution. It's not all about learning the technical aspects.

It's about learning kind of the holistic business aspects, which

Yeah.

Again, just goes back to the point that act We all need to be lifelong learners. Yes. We're all learning through, through Gen AI today. Technology's gonna act rapidly change in the next few years, and we're all gonna have to continue that learning agility and apply it to different businesses, different business models, etcetera.

Act so rather than thinking AI is here to take my job, which I think is kind of the the doom and gloom headlines that you might see or that people might think or that people might feel, actually it's understanding the wider holistic business. What customer outcomes am I trying to achieve here? How can I use act AI to support me in the role that I do, and you've shared some examples there that I had never really thought about? But if you have to wade actually tons and tons of information to find what it is that you need. You can actually use AI to support you with that given that you're you're inputting the right things based on what it is that you're trying to to get to. So, again, this idea of prompt engineering and knowing what it is that you're looking for in the 1st place and being able to express that.

Yeah. Absolutely. It's not gonna it's not gonna take your job, but the the important thing to understand about AI is act It's gonna augment roles. So the the the best accountants, the best lawyers, actually best creative film directors can use AI, can use Gen AI to really supercharge their productivity actually And create faster, create kind of using more datasets, etcetera. So the best some of the best people in those professions where they can augment act will be supercharged and super successful, and you potentially need less of them because they can be more productive. And so act There

are gonna be some

people in accounting and finance and call centers that do get displaced, and therefore, they have to reskill act to other roles that either AI creates or the green economy creates or new business models create, you know, or they've gotta kinda reskill into into other into other areas. Actually So that's the tricky transition that businesses, governments, and, frankly, us as individuals are going to have that act There are gonna be a whole bunch of people that get supercharged and become kind of the elite of people how to use it, and it actually improves their job. Act There's gonna be some knowledge workers that are impacted because we're gonna need less people in the call center, and we're gonna need less, people in in finance and law and and accounting. Act And then what we also need to remember is less so in the US, but in economies like India where there's actually 40 to 60% of people that are in jobs where, they're not part of the digital economy. They're in agriculture. They're in labor intensive industries. They're in trucking. They're in transportation.

You know, what what is it that we do for for them? Because act How do they actually get the digital skills? If if our belief is more and more work will become digitized, how do we get the people that don't have act digital skills today, and we call this the digital divide. How do we make sure that divide does not get bigger? And so that's the that's the big conundrum, and there's a really good actually piece of analysis from the IMF that was published, which we can include in the show notes, which Yeah. I really encourage people to read. It's some of the best analysis that goes through act different countries and and what proportion of their economies, services industries, and knowledge work type industries versus labor intensive, and how if you're a labor intensive industry and you don't get to participate in the digital revolution, your GDP can actually go down, act And you could actually get a bigger disparity between, say, developed countries and developing. So it's it's some really fascinating piece of analysis.

Yeah. Act yeah. No. Definitely, we'll include that in the show notes as well. Bhushan, you mentioned a couple of times this idea of the green economy. I presume that's something to do with climate change. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that? And it comes up in in the report as well.

Yeah. If we look to the future, actually And let's let's take a leap of faith that climate change is real. Firms are gonna have to redesign their business models and their supply chains act and reduced their carbon footprint, and we cannot be so reliant on fossil fuels. What that means is different businesses are gonna have to kind of reinvent, actually how they source production, how they look at sources of energy, how they access minerals in the world, how they think about their own actually Carbon footprint and emissions, and that's gonna create a whole abundance of new jobs from, deep act technical jobs, a lot of technology type jobs to say, how do we think about climate technology? How do we think about Heating. How do we think about power sources? How do we think about how we report on all of these things? And this is where also AI and climate come together. Because act If you think about the energy energy that you need for all of these large language models and gen AI, act It is huge. Yeah. And there is not enough computing power on the Earth today for us to fuel all of the actually AI we need.

So companies are gonna have to look at their AI strategy and their ESG or act sustainability strategy in their carbon emissions data that they want to, kind of share and disclose together so that they can actually answer those questions. So that's where act These come together. So there's going to be new skills that people need and new and new jobs and roles that get created in organizations and new industries that actually grow up around around climate and sustainability, and around technology, you know, notably, you know, Gen AI right now.

Actually yeah. Something else that has come up in the report, and we've spoken about it on the podcast before. I've sorry. I've spoken about it as opposed to post together. We've spoken about it. But this idea of networking and using your network for career advancement and that being one of the big challenges that act that's often how and, again, you touched on it earlier where you're saying you're recruiting people from very specific schools, for example. And we need to stop with that practice. But But how do we stop with that? Like, from my perspective, like, maybe that works quite well.

I can understand how it creates a divide. Actually but if people are thinking, well, it ain't broke. It's actually working quite well at the moment. Then how do we shift away from those kind of practices?

Yep. So there's something in the report from one of our PwC global workforce surveys that talks about, act You know, people in your network. Do you have access to people in your network? We also look at things like, do you have skills that are underrepresented on your resume, etcetera? Actually The conundrum with the relationships partner networks is, what we've, what we always kind of encourage people to do in business is build good relationships.

Act

You know, even when you leave a company, there's a way to leave a company. You've gotta kind of maintain relationships with, you know, your your colleagues to some extent, you know, your customers, your supplies, etcetera, because relationships matter, and networks matter. And especially when you're in the market to actually look look for new employment or even, frankly frankly, new business. The challenge is is that networks need to be diverse. It cannot just be act around a certain socioeconomic, or it cannot just be people who live in a certain part of London or Europe or Bombay or or New York. And so, act The the kind of the the recommendation is that we we we all need to continue to invest in relationships. We all need to leverage networks whether we're act in the market, whether we're looking for mentors, whether we're looking for coaches. But we've gotta really look at act The diversity of those networks, and are we back to the skills based hiring? Are we actually giving equal opportunity actually to other people to form our networks.

There are many, many times when, I get reached out to people even outside my organization just for a conversation because they know people who know me. And and at this stage of my life, like, I say yes to some of those things because I I think it's important to give people, people an access, and I also choose that in some of the things that I do in terms of where I speak and where I write and kind of what podcast because I act I think it's important to, to make sure that we're not just hanging around with the same people in what we call our echo chambers actually people who finish your own finish finish your sentences. We need to be, accessing younger people, people from different, all walks of life, different, act You know, backgrounds, religions, ages, etcetera.

Yeah. People who challenge how you think, people who challenge how you perceive the world. Because act how you perceive the world is a function of how you were brought up, where you went to school, who you're friends with, everything that you've learned up to now, the companies that you've worked all of those kinds of things. So it's very good that you're doing that. And that's how we connected in the 1st place. I think you actually very, you know, thrown back a few years, but you commented on something, on someone else's post. We connected on LinkedIn. We had a conversation.

I invited you to be on the podcast. Act and, you know, it just shows the power of that connection. But for people to bear in mind that you need to diversify those networks as well. Act so give back and and put your hand down to help people who are, who are kind of younger or earlier stage career than you are and and broaden your networks to people maybe who are retired as well to get, you know, different different ways of thinking. Is there anything else that you wanted to share specifically in relation to the report that we haven't covered.

Not necessarily on the report, but just on this relationships point, Aoife.

Yeah.

Actually Social media gets a bad rep because, disinformation. We spend too much time on it. But that's what's this is where social media can actually helped because you can actually manage your brand and your profile and and whether, you know, whether it's LinkedIn or other other social media. That's where people can actually form those connections act And get to know each other and show good grace and comment on something or ask questions. And so, you know, that's something I would so encouraged people that, you know, it's a broad world out there. We can actually we can actually build relationships online with people who are very different to us.

Actually

and whether you're at a stage in your life or your career where you're giving back and giving advice and mentoring or if you're new to the workplace actually And you're looking to learn and connect? There's there's there's so many ways that we can use use it to, to add our mutual benefit.

Yeah. Brilliant. Actually I love that. We talked again before we started recording about this idea of act allyship and providing allyship specifically for women in the workplace. So, maybe as a man, talk me through actually how you go about doing that and maybe some advice for women if they're looking to get sponsorship or if they're looking to find a male ally.

Actually Yeah. I think allyship, is really important. I like the word advocacy. I think that, We really need to kind of find and whether it's women or whether it's people, who are refugees or people who are the 1st in their actually family to go to college or, you know, people who are just from a different socioeconomic background. We all need people in organizations who can advocate for us, advocate for us in the rooms that we're not in, kinda take a leap of of faith on us, and support us in act kinda good times and and tough times. And so, you know, as when I when I look at successful diverse candidates in organizations act And the people that kind of rise

to, you know,

very impactful roles, again, whether they're women or whether they're, people of color or or kind of actually different, you know, diverse by socioeconomic. There's always a few people behind them that have been allies or or really big advocates for them, act that have pounded the table, that have put their political capital at risk to say, Aoife's brilliant. She actually may not be ready for this role right now, but we need to give her a stretch opportunity, or we need to accommodate the fact that she needs more flexibility actually someone else right now. And we also need to kinda just straight out call out bad behavior. If we're if we're putting standards on, act diverse candidates that we wouldn't expect of, say, male candidates or if there's issues that you can you know, you can't change because You know? Let's think about, like, post maternity leave, and the return back to the workplace. There's obviously a whole set of act Physical and emotional, challenges that that has for women that are different for men even though we have paternity leave. So we just act We just need to kind of advocate. We need to kinda call out bad behavior.

And if we're ever gonna get to gender equity, gender parity, act We're gonna have to we're gonna have to think and work differently, around around this topic.

Yeah. And is one of the things and I you know, I see this in relation to culture specifically as well, this idea of calling out the bad behavior. Like, how act how does that materialize in the workplace from from what you've seen? Or, like, just the actually calling it out. Like, being aware of it and then, you know, pulling someone aside and having a word, whatever that might look like.

It takes, courage in an organization. Again, whether you're act an entry level or whether you're a senior leader, to call out somebody's biases, to challenge someone in terms of how they've delivered feedback, Even if and if that person's very successful in an organization and is a great trader or a great salesperson actually a great a great business manager. It takes a lot of courage because nobody likes kind of direct feedback. But what we've got to do in organizations, the theory's easy. We can talk about Yeah. Creating an environment. We can talk about psychological safety. Act you know, Adam Grant is one of the best people that talks about all of the the tricks around this.

But it really starts with individuals, act Just like they would in their personal lives, just having zero tolerance to certain words, certain microaggressions, certain, act sexism, racism, you know, prejudice in a workplace. And it also takes something for leaders or or colleagues to actually say, act I need to listen because some of this is, it it could be misintended. It it it could be actually Just that people are just misinformed that they make, they make a comment. They make a joke. They, they they kind of stretch the act boundaries of of their role. And so some of it is when we are in those positions, we need to kind of actually listen to others that are giving us this feedback. I'm sure we'll get onto this topic. But right now, this this topic around DEI is a bit of a culture war.

Actually used right now, because in the US, especially, when we say DEI, act People are kind of you know, I've heard this term, DEI is dead. I've heard the term that, you know, ESG is no longer a big focus. Act Firms are walking back their commitments around DEI. And what we really need to do is organizations need to pick the few things that they're going to be very actually steadfast and committed to and just continued that path. Mhmm. So if if gender focus or if, In the US, kind of focus on, you know, African American representation in organizations as a focus. We need to continue that, and we need to kind of act We need to organizations need to push forward to that in spite of kind of what's talked about kind of, you know, on social media or by certain very vocal business people or politicians, etcetera. But it's a challenge right now, and it's a really misunderstood topic.

Actually And my personal concern is this. When we say, you know, DEI is not a focus anymore or actually People are walking back their commitments. You know, post the murder of George Floyd, it gives people who are closet intolerant, actually People that want to go back to an older way of working, a less a less equitable way of working, etcetera, it gives them the opportunity, whether it's in business or in life, actually To kinda be emboldened and kinda share those views, and it can manifest in less opportunities for for women, less opportunities for minorities, less immigration, and kinda more just more divisiveness and polarisation in society. So that's something that act I think we all have to kinda do our part

on. Yeah. It's knowing what you stand for and committing to that. Yeah. It's I mean, act I've only seen the kind of the headlines from what's coming in in the US. I don't haven't seen anything from Europe just yet, but it is interesting how it's unfolding. Actually and certainly the people who I'm connected with on my social media channels are talking about how it's terrible that that's this is happening. Like, I haven't seen 1 person saying, oh, isn't this a brilliant move? And it's it's definitely what what's needed.

You know, all of these kinds of things. Act I'd love to know if there's so most of the listeners are women. So if any of the women who are listening today want to know act how do they go about connect making those connections and having someone who is going to advocate for them in the room where they are not?

The first thing is, in an organization, is find out those people who historically been good male allies. So we like, people in organizations know who they are. They'll know that, act You know, that these individuals have supported women or minorities kind of in the past, and they're the real deal. Or these are the people act that will talk about it publicly. But, personally, they will not put their pit political capital on you know, at risk for you. Yeah. Or they won't spent time with you. They'll tell you what you wanna hear, but they're but they're kind of paying lip service.

So find find the people that are authentically in your organization doing it and taking action and get, act and get feedback from from other female colleagues. And then the most important thing is have coaching have a conversation with with someone actually asked them. And whether it's a a senior male leader or it could be a senior female leader, because females you know, developing actually is really important as well, is ask someone to say, you know, I would love to be, you know, would it be possible for that we could have a coaching relationship? Act Could we get 30 minutes every quarter where, you know, I can kinda share what I'm doing and I can get your feedback? You know, it could be more it could be

act More. It could be less, etcetera.

But it it's literally just asking and kind of setting up the parameters and the boundaries of of that. It's it's always easier if it's someone in your organization, because they understand the culture. They can actually have real impact. Act Although a lot of people do use outside you know, people who are external to the organization as mentors because act Either they've worked in their industry or they have a set of experience, etcetera. But it starts with, like, picking the right people, asking people, act And then just making it a two way relationship. The mentoring that I do for people, I learn so much about, you know, working with younger people, actually Working with people who grew up with different backgrounds to me. And so there's there's a huge benefit, but not everyone's gonna be a good mentor or a good ally. And, you know, there's there's a responsibility you have, you know, when you're being mentored as well to kind of make sure that you show up, that you ask the right questions, asked that you seek out the right advice.

You take you take action where you can, and you take personal accountability.

Yeah. Brilliant. Love that. Actually really, really great advice. And the knowing that it is that two way relationship, I think, is really important. And just not being afraid to ask that question in the 1st place to to make things happen because there's probably people listening who are intimidated or they're afraid to to even ask or to to reach out to someone. But it it's a case of act just doing it anyway. Even if you feel afraid to do it, just do it.

Brilliant.

Absolutely.

Any any parting words of wisdom before we wrap things up.

We have 4,200,000,000 people going to the actually polls in different elections around the world. It's gonna be a it's gonna be a turbulent year. There's gonna be there's gonna be lots of rhetoric. Actually There's gonna be lots of disinformation. There's gonna be lots of polarization. We've talked about this in the past, but one of the scariest thing for me is act The world seems to be more splintered. Ian Bremner is a great political economist. If you don't follow call he calls this a g zero.

He basically says that, Whether it's US, China, different parts of the Middle East, we're all working separate. I also see that within countries. Act The US has a polarized society based on politics and socioeconomics. We have class wars around things like ESG and DEI. And actually My advice is that we've all gotta get through this set of election years, but there's gonna be some, there's gonna be some ebbs and flows. There's gonna be

actually some polarization.

The economy is looking like it's gonna soften. We're seeing less and less kinda discretionary spend from companies. Act And even though we do have tight labor markets, there's still this messy transition of this skills mismatch we talked about because AI is gonna impact, act If you look at the IMF stats, it's gonna impact 60% of roles in some shape or form in the developed world and 40% in the developing world. So act We've all gotta kind of, hunker down and kind of manage the polarization, focus on our jobs, focus on our families, our economy, act But also kind of understand that this is an election year, and there'll be lots of news flying around for various reasons.

Mhmm. And

we've all gotta get through 2020 Get to the other side.

Yeah. Brilliant. And I suppose it's know the source of the information that you're reading and do your own reading and actually and maybe mute a few things on social media if they're starting to, get on top of you or annoy you and also be open to other people's asked opinions as well.

Absolutely. I I double click on the last one, just being open to, like, diverse perspectives. Mhmm. Act You know, start following a few people on your social media that actually have different views to you because you'll learn. You don't have to agree with their views, but it's really good to understand, act arguments and perspectives from all sides, whether it's about, you know, a terrible war conflict, whether it's about a social issue, act Whether it's about, politics or or even your company's policies.

Brilliant. Thank you so much. I absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this conversation today as I always do. I would really appreciate your time. So thank you for taking some time out. The question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast is us what does being happier at work mean to you?

For me, being happier at work is, actually Working on projects with clients where I can actually see the end results.

Mhmm.

You know? I can see their employees being happier or or their actually being developed. I can see the company achieve, the financial results that they're setting out to achieve, or they're optimizing the investments in the technology that they've actually that they're procured. So it's really seeing seeing the outcomes.

Brilliant. Lovely.

And it goes without saying, Aoife, also congratulations on episode 200. That's a phenomenal achievement, highly exciting. I'm sure there'll be lots of fanfare and promotion of that. But I I remember 100. I remember 150. But, yeah, 200 is just, incredible.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's from humble beginnings, and here I am. Act I definitely didn't think back when I was recording episode 1. I wasn't thinking about episode 200 at that stage, but, act yeah.

Lots of learnings along the way, and I will share the learnings in one of the episodes around, 200. So either 199 or 1 or 201. Act I would definitely be sharing some of the the learnings along the way of that. But, thank you so much for your time today. Really, really appreciate it. And hopefully, we can catch up again soon.

Actually Sounds good. Thank you.