Kathleen Wood, Senior Staff Attorney for The Animal Legal Defense Fund (aldf.org), joins Dr. G to discuss the 2023 ALDF State Animal Protection Ranking Report. Learn about the purpose and the information found on this document, and how it can help promote better animal protection laws in every state.

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Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host Dr.

3

G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

Today's guest is Kathleen

Wood, senior staff attorney for

5

the Animal Legal Defense Fund.

6

Thank you so much for being here

and welcome to the Junction.

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Kathleen Wood: Thank you

so much for having me.

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DrG: So can you start by letting our

audience know who you are and what

9

brought you to where you are today?

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Kathleen Wood: Sure.

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So as you mentioned, my

name is Kathleen Wood.

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I, um, started out actually

studying art history at UCLA and was

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volunteering at a shelter that was

a last stop shelter for animals who

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were having a hard time being adopted.

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And a lot of time that was because

of abuse because they had physical

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or behavioral issues as a result.

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And that really inspired me to go into the

area of animal rights and animal welfare.

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I had already been thinking about going

to law school and started researching the

19

field of animal law and discovered this

entire area of really passionate people.

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Um, and just decided that's, that's

what I wanted to do with my life.

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So, um, during law school, I worked

with the Animal Welfare Institute

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and the Animal Legal Defense Fund.

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And then as soon as I graduated, I came

to work for the Animal Legal Defense

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Fund and I've been here ever since.

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DrG: I think it's really amazing that

a lot of other guests that I have

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had, they have started with completely

different things in their life, right?

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And then they have had that aha moment

in animal welfare that has guided them to

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like, what has become their true passion.

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So what we're here to discuss is

this really cool document that is

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the animal protection ranking report,

and you have a big part in it.

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So how can you explain to our

audience what this report is?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

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Um, so this Since 2006, the Animal

Legal Defense Fund has been publishing

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this report, and it ranks each state

and territory's animal protection

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laws, and compares the various

strengths and weaknesses of them.

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And so I took over the report in 2017,

and did my first overhaul of the contents

37

and scoring metrics the next year in

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overhaul in, uh, for our 2023 rankings.

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So each year, usually in January or

February, we'll publish the report and

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it goes through all the legislation

that's been passed the previous year

41

and redoes our ranking, and we publish

a comprehensive report that goes into

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detail about our methodology, what

has changed, what states have improved,

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and, uh, kind of who is ranking where in

terms of their animal protection laws.

44

DrG: So based on this methodology,

what categories are states

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ranked or, or graded on?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, um, so we

have 20 different categories,

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and these correspond to what

we call our compendiums.

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So every state and territory has their own

compendium that we maintain separately.

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That's also available on our website.

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And that is essentially just a very long

document that has the full text of all

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of the animal protection laws divided

into these 20 different categories.

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And so they're divided

into substantive crimes.

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So, you know, what are the laws that

prohibit general abuse and neglect, the

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laws that prohibit sexual assault of

animals, animal fighting, and so on, and

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then we also look at laws that provide

procedures for enforcing those crimes,

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so, uh, you know, who can seize an animal

and when, whether the animal can be

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ordered forfeited, before or after the

person's convicted, and then, we also have

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e other laws including, um, reporting

laws, you know, can veterinarians or

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social service workers report suspected

animal cruelty, what can civilians do

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to intervene if they witness animal

cruelty, and so all of those are divided

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into those 20 different categories.

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DrG: So this report, it helps us figure

out what states are doing, are doing

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what, but does it help in any other ways?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, so it helps

to identify what states are doing

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well and also where the gaps are.

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Um, because when you start looking at

it on this macro level, you can very

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clearly see where some major gaps are.

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For example, West Virginia is now the

only state that doesn't have a law

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prohibiting sexual assault of animals.

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so that's a very clear area that we

can target for , future legislation.

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, it also, the report also helps because

it can help direct legislators and

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advocates to particularly strong

laws that can be used as models.

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So if you notice that in your state, uh,

there's You know, there's not really a

74

comprehensive law defining what level

of minimum care an animal has to have.

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Um, you know, what kind of shelter

they must be provided with,

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what kind of food, water, etc.

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Then you can look to the laws.

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Um, of the states in our top five,

like Oregon and Maine, which have

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really strong comprehensive laws

addressing animal neglect, and you

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can use those as models when looking,

uh, to improve your own state's laws.

81

DrG: Based on the, on the

rankings for last year, what are,

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what are the best five states?

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Kathleen Wood: The top five states

are, uh, Oregon, Maine, Illinois,

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Massachusetts, and Colorado.

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DrG: And what would you

say overall is needed?

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I mean, I imagine that it's like

the majority of the, of the laws

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are strong, but what are the

things that make these states, you

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know, go up and down in rankings?

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Kathleen Wood: So it's really

a huge combination of things.

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So our rankings look at, we

have 76 different questions,

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um, closed ended questions, with

Kind of multiple choice answers.

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They each have a different

point system assigned to them.

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And so for each of the 56 jurisdictions,

the 50 states and 6 inhabited

94

territories, we go through and

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Um, so there are a lot of

different ways that states can

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go up and down in our rankings.

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DrG: Yeah, well, because I was thinking,

like, you know, We were, we were

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discussing a little bit ago about how

Connecticut made such a huge jump.

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So what does it, was this a state, like

what, what were the changes that they

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went through to have increased so much?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, in 2023,

Connecticut jumped 20 ranks, from

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31st to 11th place, and that's because

they passed a really comprehensive

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bill that did a number of things.

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One, it helped to, close a

loophole that was in their

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sexual assault of animals laws.

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It imposed a mandatory five year

possession ban for people who

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have been convicted of animal

cruelty, um, prohibiting them from

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residing with or owning or possessing

an animal for five years, and it

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also required veterinarians to report

suspected animal cruelty and granted them

110

immunity from civil suit for doing that.

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DrG: I was going to say, like, Ohio, it

didn't used to have a strong reporting

112

law and several years ago, I actually

had the opportunity to present proponent

113

testimony for the reporting law because

it is something that is very important.

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You know, especially not just

in protecting the animals, but

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also protecting people, right?

116

That's the whole idea of

the of the cross reporting.

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And I know that Ohio has been

kind of creeping up slowly but

118

surely, and it has improved.

119

What?

120

What has?

121

What has Ohio done?

122

To get it from where it was that

I think it was in the 40s several

123

years ago, up to like now 18.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, and that

cross reporting law that you're

125

referring to was a huge part of that.

126

Um, so a couple of years ago, they passed

a law that not only required veterinarians

127

to report suspected cruelty, but also,

social services workers, because of the

128

link between animal cruelty and domestic

violence and child abuse, social service

129

workers are kind of uniquely positioned

to be able to witness that animal

130

cruelty going on behind closed doors, and

need to be empowered and to report it.

131

And Ohio was actually one of the

first states to pass a law requiring

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social service workers to report.

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They've passed a number of other laws,

like, permitting companion animals

134

to be included in protection orders.

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And just last year, they passed

a law classifying animal cruelty

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as a offense of violence.

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DrG: One of the things that, looking at

the different categories and such, we have

138

about Post conviction possession bans,

and I think that that is something that

139

is super important because I work with a

lot of animal hoarding cases, for example,

140

and then there will be, they'll either

do one or not do one, but they're not

141

very strong, but also I'm thinking about

the case of Indianapolis Animal Services

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that the two employees got fired because

they were trying to do a background check,

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah,

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DrG: it just happened within the

last month, I believe they were

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trying to do background checks to

find for animal cruelty convictions,

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and they were fired because they,

the facility said that it was a

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discriminatory act against adoptions.

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But then I looked, and this is in Indiana,

which has mandatory possession bans.

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Kathleen Wood: So, yeah, they have

possession bans linked to probation, so

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as long as a person's on probation, um,

then they have a possession ban, yeah.

151

DrG: Yeah, so I thought that it was kind

of, kind of interesting that they have,

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they have something saying that people,

you know, people may have possession

153

bans, but then these employees were

fired because they, trying to uphold it.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

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No, that's, that is very interesting.

156

We actually have our model laws that

are available on our website that, uh, I

157

helped to draft and one of the provisions

is to make available a list of people with

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possession bans, um, to, agencies that

Like animal shelters that are adopting

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out animals, um, to ensure that there

is some kind of cross checking in place.

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Um, you know, this wouldn't be any

kind of public registry that's posted

161

online, but just those, uh, you know,

pet stores and shelters that have animals

162

for adoption to make sure that, um,

we can make sure that these possession

163

bans aren't completely toothless,

that they, they're being enforced.

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DrG: Right.

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And I think, you know, like there may

be some people out there that don't

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necessarily care about the animals, but

they do care about what happens to people.

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And I feel like some of these stronger

laws are going to benefit the link, right?

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, um, so,

historically, you know, the link has

169

been used to kind of get people to care.

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Um, if, you know, saying, well, if

you don't care about the animals

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in the home, um, at least you

should care about the people.

172

And.

173

You know, in a sense,

yes, that that is true.

174

It does get people to

care about these issues.

175

Um, but I think the link is so much

more important because of the other ways

176

that it intersects with animal cruelty.

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So, um, for example, it helps to explain

why people abuse animals because it's

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the same underlying factors that go into

other antisocial behaviors like domestic

179

violence, like harm against humans.

180

Um, so it's important for us to look

at the link through that lens because.

181

We, ideally, the criminal justice

system would be used to address those

182

underlying issues, and prevent people

from then committing animal cruelty

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or committing other antisocial acts.

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DrG: I think that that's one

of the important parts as far

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as with the cross reporting.

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And one of the reasons why I wanted

proponent to give proponent testimony was

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the fact that sometimes as veterinarians

we are the first ones to see abuse, right?

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Like the humans being abused,

the children abuse or the elderly

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abuse is not necessarily seen,

but we can find that animal abuse

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and then do something about it.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, uh, animal cruelty is now being

tracked by the FBI and the National

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Incident Based Reporting System, um,

NIBRS, and because of that, we can

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see that the vast majority of animal

cruelty is going on in the home, um,

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and it's not being witnessed by a

lot of outsiders, so veterinarians

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are uniquely positioned to be able to

identify those signs and symptoms of

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animal cruelty, and as a result, um, you

know, are uniquely positioned to also

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witness overlapping forms of violence,

domestic violence, familial violence,

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um, You know, there was one study that

said that the three professions most

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likely to encounter battered women were

hairdressers, dentists, and veterinarians.

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DrG: That is really interesting.

202

And I can see it because those

are going to be the, yeah, the

203

places where they're going to go.

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And, and even, I, I think of them

as professions that are used to

205

talking to people and being almost

like, Like little therapists for that

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Kathleen Wood: exactly that you

know, get people talking about their,

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their health, their one health, the

health of and safety of the home.

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Absolutely.

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DrG: So one of the categories that

I don't think a lot of people are

210

familiar with is the bond and forfeit.

211

Yeah, I mean, what that is about

because I think that it is really

212

important and I think that there

are some states that are way behind.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

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So this was 1 of the new trends that

we identified last year in our report.

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So bond or forfeit refers

to a legal procedure.

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So, to back up, um, when an animal

is seized pursuant to a cruelty

217

investigation, they're kind of put

in this legal limbo, because they're

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still technically the property of

the owner, of the defendant who is

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being accused of animal cruelty or

neglect, but they're in the physical

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custody of the local shelter or agency

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that's holding them pending the criminal

investigation and trial, and that can

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go on for months or years at a time.

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And in the meantime, the care for

that animal is really expensive.

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It's not just, you know,

the food, water and shelter.

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It's also veterinary care.

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And depending on how badly the animal

was abused and neglected, that could be

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really extensive surgeries, rehabilitative

care, behavioral rehabilitation.

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And then especially for hoarding

situations like you were talking about.

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You might have hundreds of

animals being seized, and those

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costs add up really quickly.

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And all this time, the defendant

is still the legal owner.

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They should have the

responsibility of financially

233

providing for that animal's care.

234

So the bond or forfeit mechanism

is designed to reallocate those

235

costs where they rightfully

belong with the animal's owner.

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Usually states that in these laws that

a few weeks or a month after the initial

237

seizure, there's a, uh, there's a hearing,

and at that hearing, the courts will

238

order either the defendant has to post

a bond to cover those costs of care,

239

usually for 30 days at a time, and then

it renews up until the point of trial.

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Or if they're unable or unwilling

to pay for the animal's care, then

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they have to forfeit the animal.

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And that means that the shelter can

adopt out the animal, uh, to a new

243

loving home and they are no longer

on the hook for those ongoing costs.

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And it also gets the animal out of

the shelter because we know that,

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you know, even in the best, most

well resourced shelter, uh, it's

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going to be psychologically hard and

re traumatizing for an animal to be

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there for months or years at a time.

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DrG: I was talking to

one of my friends from H.

249

S.

250

U.

251

S.

252

About a case that they had several

years ago where these animals were

253

stuck in limbo for like two years

because the state that they were,

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uh, that they seized the animals

from did not have this kind of law.

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So these animals and

there were pregnant dogs.

256

There were animals that were born

in while they were in the shelter.

257

And As you say, like shelters, they,

the majority of them do their best, but

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it's not a long term place for animals.

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Right.

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It's, it's supposed to be

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Kathleen Wood: designed to be short term.

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Absolutely.

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DrG: Yeah.

264

So that's one of the things that I worry

about is just not the, not the physical

265

health, but the mental health of these

animals while they're in captivity.

266

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, absolutely.

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DrG: So the other thing

is protection orders.

268

That's something that I think has,

we've been talking about more and more

269

as far as including because animals.

270

are seen as property.

271

So realistically, whoever claims to

be the owner, whoever is spending the

272

money or whoever is doing whatever

is the one that legally would

273

be allowed to keep the property.

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But we are learning to

move from that, right?

275

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, so there are, I

believe, 40 states now that explicitly

276

allow courts to order animals to

be included in protection orders.

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And about half of those, including

Ohio, it's limited to just companion

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animals, which is unfortunate because

You know, there are plenty of cases of

279

people being attached to their farmed

animals or even abusers threatening to

280

harm farmed animals as a way to control

the, the human victim in their life.

281

So, um, we would really love to see

that be expanded to all species.

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But.

283

At the very least, in those 40 states,

you can, when petitioning for a domestic

284

violence protection order, include

your animal so that you can be awarded

285

sole custody of the animal and prevent

the abuser from, from harming them.

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But then there's the other

issue of where do you go?

287

There's most shelters, most domestic

violence shelters don't accept

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animals that aren't service animals.

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And that fortunately is changing,

but it's, it's a really slow process.

290

DrG: I guess at least though, having

the, the ability to have a protection

291

order may encourage somebody to

leave knowing that legally the

292

animal will not be sent back, right?

293

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, because, well we

know that about a third to a half of women

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in DV situations report having delayed

their escape out of fear for their animal.

295

That's one of the most common

kind of psychological means of

296

coercion in a domestic violence

relationship is, you know, if you

297

leave me, I'm going to kill your dog.

298

DrG: And speaking of psychological

evaluations, that's another thing

299

that I, that you guys measure, right,

as category, like the places that

300

require psychological evaluations.

301

Yeah.

302

I think about the importance of

it in like hoarding cases again,

303

just how they're not being managed

properly because they're given fees.

304

They're given fines.

305

The animals are being taken away,

but nothing is being done to

306

prevent this from happening again.

307

And then just people in general that

may be intentionally causing harm,

308

like they're not being evaluated.

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And so after they serve their

time, they're allowed to go

310

out and, and do it again.

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Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

312

And there are so many psychological

disorders that have been linked to animal

313

cruelty, some of them explicitly, you

know, animal cruelty is one of the DSM 5's

314

, symptoms of a conduct disorder, which

is a behavioral disorder in juveniles.

315

Um, it's also included in, um, you

know, sexual assault of animals.

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It's included in, uh, paraphilia disorder.

317

There are a number of different

diagnostic tools that will specifically

318

identify animal cruelty as one

of the symptoms of that disorder.

319

Psychological evaluations are so important

because they can help to identify

320

underlying factors that went into the

animal cruelty offense, um, whether that

321

is a specific disorder, um, substance

abuse, or anything like that, and that

322

information can help the court tailor

a sentence to specifically address

323

underlying causes, and hopefully prevent

the person from harming the animal.

324

animal in the future or

even a human in the future.

325

DrG: Yeah, I think about how, you

know, prisons and jails should be

326

about rehabilitation because the

majority of these individuals are

327

eventually going to be let out.

328

Kathleen Wood: Oh, absolutely.

329

Especially with animal cruelty.

330

Um, you know, it's such

a low level offense.

331

You have to be operating

under the assumption that

332

they're going to be released.

333

Um, you know, and so we want to make

sure that when people are released

334

into society, they're less likely,

not more likely to, to recidivate.

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DrG: Yeah, I worked with a case recently

where a man beat his dog with a rock,

336

killed it, and he was, uh, charged

with felony animal cruelty, but he

337

just got three months in prison, right?

338

Because the, here in Ohio, the most

that they can get anyway is 12 months,

339

but he only got three months in

prison, and there is, there was no

340

psychological evaluation, there was no

intention to rehabilitate or anything.

341

So he's going to have a possession

ban, I want to say, for three years.

342

So, first of all, who is

enforcing that possession ban?

343

And, you know, who is protecting

other animals and who is

344

protecting the people in his life?

345

Because this specific individual

had been in prison for seven

346

years for assaulting a human.

347

So, you know, he came out of jail and

clearly did not was not rehabilitated,

348

and then he did this to a dog.

349

So, you know, we need to do better.

350

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, and one of the

problems is that we really don't

351

have a lot of data on, rehabilitative

efforts for people who have committed

352

animal cruelty or even just any kind

of sentencing for animal cruelty.

353

We don't have a lot of data showing

what sentences are being, uh, assigned

354

to offenders and what the outcome is.

355

You know, do those people recidivate is.

356

Incarceration, a deterrent, uh,

specific deterrent is, um, you know,

357

diversion programs or counseling.

358

Are these things actually being

used and are they helping?

359

Um, and so I would really love to

have more information on, you know,

360

what is actually being used across the

country and then be able to use that

361

to help advise courts on what are the

most effective sentences because right

362

now we have, we have educated guesses

based on the data that's available

363

DrG: We talked about the best five states.

364

What are the worst five

states as of last year?

365

And what what could they be doing better?

366

Kathleen Wood: So the worst five

states were Kentucky, South Carolina,

367

Idaho, Alabama, and North Dakota.

368

Um, and there, there are a number of

things that they can be doing better.

369

One of the most basic things is

the definition of the word animal.

370

Um, you know, you would

think that that would be a, a

371

pretty, , intuitive definition.

372

One, um, but for example, South

Carolina is ranked 47, um, and they

373

exclude invertebrates, so octopi, and

their, their primary animal cruelty law

374

excludes all poultry, all fowl, birds.

375

Um, so they're just simply not

protected under animal cruelty laws.

376

And then, for example, Kentucky excludes

all cold blooded animals, um, which

377

is just a huge category of animals

that are just simply not protected.

378

Uh, and so that's one of the most

basic ways, um, they could work

379

to expand animal protection laws.

380

Um, another big one is what

we've been talking about,

381

forfeiture and possession bans.

382

So the lowest ranked state, North

Dakota, doesn't have a law requiring

383

animals to be forfeited after the

person's been convicted of cruelty.

384

So you could have a person

convicted of torturing their dog.

385

And at the end of the trial, the court

orders the dog to go back to that person.

386

I mean, I'm, it's completely

within the court's discretion.

387

And they don't have any laws specifically

addressing possession bans, uh, so, you

388

know, theoretically, yes, the court could

order a possession ban as a condition

389

of probation, but once probation ends,

which is usually, you know, max two

390

years, three years, um, after that,

there's, there's no way to impose a ban

391

on, um, residing with or owning animals.

392

DrG: So not to pick on West Virginia, but.

393

Since they don't have, uh, laws against

sexual assault against animals, why

394

are they not as, you know, that low?

395

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, um,

that's a great question.

396

I, so West Virginia, yes, that is

a huge gap in terms of their laws.

397

Um, you know, they are the only state

and one of three, there's two territories

398

that don't have laws prohibiting

sexual assault of animals, Northern

399

Mariana Islands and American Samoa.

400

So one of three jurisdictions

in the entire U.

401

S.

402

that, that doesn't prohibit that.

403

So you would expect them to be very

low, but you also have to consider

404

the fact that we evaluate so many

different categories of animal

405

protection laws in our rankings.

406

So West Virginia does have some other

protections in their laws that help to

407

compensate for their utter lack of laws

prohibiting sexual assault of animals.

408

For example, they do have mandatory

possession bans for any species

409

that include any species of animals.

410

They also have a law addressing cross

reporting that's requires elder abuse

411

and child abuse to be reported, um,

that also requires social services to

412

report suspected animal cruelty and

provides immunity to them for doing so.

413

So even though they have this huge

gap in their laws when it comes

414

to prohibiting sexual assault of

animals, they, they have some other,

415

uh, provisions that help compensate

that and help to pad their score.

416

DrG: So come on West Virginia, you have

one law and then you can make a huge jump.

417

You can be so good.

418

Um, I'm, I'm looking at the, at

the report and it says about that

419

a new category that was added was

the emergency rescue and relief.

420

So what is that about?

421

Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

422

So previously we had something similar.

423

We had a category that we call dogs and

hot cars, which was a little bit of a

424

misnomer, but it, you know, included what

we call good Samaritan laws that allow

425

people to rescue animals, um, from, you

know, Vehicles, unattended vehicles.

426

So if you're at the mall and you see

a dog sitting in a car and it's, you

427

know, 80 degrees outside and the dog

is in serious distress, um, in those

428

14 states, you can call the police and

then break in and rescue the animal.

429

And there are several other

states that have laws that allow

430

civilians to intervene in cruelty

and neglect situations outside

431

of that very narrow category.

432

So, for example, in Ohio, uh, there's

a law which states that, um, if you

433

witness an animal being neglected,

I think it's 12 hours, um, you know,

434

without being provided food, water, care.

435

Um, you can.

436

Enter upon somebody's property and provide

the animal with the necessary care.

437

And so those kinds of laws are

now all encompassed in that

438

emergency rescue category.

439

DrG: Something that I think it's

relatively new and that I would love to

440

see everywhere, but it's starting to grow

is the courtroom animal advocate program.

441

So can you talk a little bit about that?

442

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, um, so Courtroom

Animal Advocate Program, or CAAP, it's

443

laws that allow a third party advocate to

be present in the courtroom, specifically

444

advocating for the animal's interests

or for the interests of justice.

445

Um, and so currently only two

states have these CAAP laws, um,

446

and that's Connecticut and Maine.

447

So Connecticut passed their law in

448

And that came out of a really

heartbreaking case in which a man

449

separated from his girlfriend after

attempting to strangle her, so this was

450

a link related case, um, she ended up

giving Desmond to a shelter, um, because

451

she was having trouble finding housing,

I believe, with her dog, and he went

452

to the shelter and adopted Desmond.

453

Kept him locked in the bathroom, um,

for, you know, all hours of the day.

454

He fed him one cup of rice per day.

455

And during the day he was litigating

child custody against his ex girlfriend

456

in the courts and coming home and

beating Desmond out of his rage at night.

457

Um, and eventually he did

strangle and kill Desmond.

458

And what really gripped people's

attention was that he was Awarded

459

a diversion program that he wasn't

technically eligible for, um, because

460

he had already gotten diversion

for strangling his girlfriend.

461

Um, and so if there had been somebody

in that courtroom advocating for

462

Desmond's interests, you know,

they might have pointed out

463

that this person isn't actually

eligible for diversion for this

464

crime, and gotten a different result.

465

So that case led to the first ever

Courtroom Animal Advocate Program,

466

and It's been hugely successful.

467

So it's, uh, lawyers and

supervised law students.

468

There's a program through the University

of Connecticut where, um, law students

469

can participate in a clinic and help the

court to identify issues facing those

470

animals, um, that are still in custody

and be a voice for the animals who

471

have, who are unfortunately deceased.

472

So one example that arose, I think, in

473

and, um, one of the dogs who had been

seized was pregnant and gave birth to

474

a litter of puppies while in custody.

475

And the owner demanded those

puppies back because they weren't

476

part of the search warrant.

477

Um, and he said, you know, look,

these puppies have never been abused.

478

You've no right to hold my property.

479

Um, and they were particularly valuable

because they were from this, you

480

know, esteemed dogfighting bloodline.

481

And, The advocate was able to successfully

argue, um, for those puppies and argue

482

that they should not be returned to

their owner, that they, you know, did

483

belong in, properly in custody, and,

um, eventually they were adopted out,

484

um, But it wasn't anyone's job other

than the advocate to really advocate

485

for them because they weren't the

victims of the animal cruelty crime.

486

So it wasn't really the prosecutor

or the state's job to be in

487

court advocating for them.

488

And so that's why it's so important

to have that third party voice

489

in the courtroom for those, you

know, for those animals that would

490

otherwise fall through the cracks.

491

DrG: Yeah, I think it's important, and

I hope that more states start picking

492

up on it, because it's the same as

like a child advocate, right, in court,

493

like we're looking, you have somebody

that knows about that, that victim or

494

potential victim to advocate for them,

because sometimes I also think that

495

sometimes attorneys and prosecutors

lose sight of what's happening, right,

496

like they just want to close a case, or

they just want to You know, it is a make

497

deals and everything else that may not

be in the best interest of the animal.

498

So having somebody that's there just for

that animal can make a huge difference.

499

Kathleen Wood: Yeah.

500

And I mean, if you have a prosecutor who

is hugely passionate about animal issues.

501

You know, they might be going above

and beyond their job description

502

to help those animal victims.

503

Like, I'm not discounting the

many prosecutors who are out there

504

fighting for animal victims every day.

505

Um, but it's not technically their job.

506

Their job is to advocate for the interests

of justice and society generally.

507

Um, you know, they're, they're

representing the people, literally,

508

they, they're for the people.

509

So, you know, it's important that

we have somebody who's job it is

510

to speak for animals and to make

sure that the, that person can get

511

their voice heard in the courtroom.

512

So these advocates can help to summarize,

you know, what's going on with the

513

animals, what their current conditions

are, and they can also, provide victim

514

impact statements on sentencing,

um, which is another huge issue that

515

I know you're very familiar with.

516

I think you've written a victim impact

statement for an animal victim in the

517

past, um, and because animals can't

speak for themselves, you know, that's

518

why we need to have people like you and

have, like, advocates who can provide,

519

be that voice in the legal system.

520

DrG: Yeah, I really hope that it, that

it takes on, and I think with more animal

521

law programs, that maybe we're, we're

going to start seeing a change on that, so

522

that animals can have their voice heard.

523

So ag gag laws, I don't think that

a lot of people understand what these

524

things are because to me personally, I

thought that this was common sense that

525

somebody seeing animal cruelty could

report it, but that's not really the case.

526

So can you explain to our

audience what an ag gag law is?

527

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, so an ag

gag law is kind of a nickname

528

for anti whistleblower laws.

529

There are a handful of states that

have passed these laws that will

530

specifically prohibit somebody who is

working in an agricultural industry,

531

who witnesses animal cruelty from

reporting that animal cruelty.

532

Um, which is, a number of these laws

have been challenged by the Animal Legal

533

Defense Fund and other coalition partners

and have been found to be unconstitutional

534

violations of the freedom of speech.

535

Um, so workers, you know, as part of

their First Amendment rights, they

536

have the ability to report crimes

that they're witnessing in their work

537

environment, um, and, these laws are

trying to prevent whistleblowers.

538

DrG: Yeah, and it just, again,

like, it doesn't make sense.

539

Like, you're witnessing somebody

breaking the law, you would think

540

that you would get in trouble if you

don't report it, but it's opposite.

541

Kathleen Wood: Yeah, exactly.

542

Um, you know, and they're often kind

of shrouded in these, um, You know,

543

privacy concerns or industry secrets.

544

We can't, we can't have our workers

disclosing our industry secrets.

545

Well, if your industry secrets are

breaking the law, um, then you don't

546

have any right to, to tell somebody

that, that they can't report you.

547

So there was actually one state in

which they passed a law requiring,

548

uh, whistleblowers to report suspected

animal cruelty within the first 24 hours.

549

which sounds great, um, but if you think

about it, it sometimes takes months of

550

gathering undercover footage to build

a case because you have to be able to

551

demonstrate that it's a policy of the

corporation, um, and it's not just

552

a one off employee and, uh, so that

law was actually intended to target

553

undercover investigators from building

cases against these larger corporations.

554

I

555

DrG: see.

556

So then they would have to like say

immediately what they were seeing and

557

then the the organization or whatever

would have a chance to do something.

558

Kathleen Wood: Then they would

just say, Oh, well, you know,

559

that was a one off situation.

560

That was just this one

bad apple, bad actor.

561

Um, and we fired this employee

and now everything's okay.

562

Uh, when in reality, it might be an

ongoing systematic abuse, or it might be

563

the policy of the corporation that the

workers abuse the animals in this way.

564

DrG: So can the rankings help

states improve or see what they can

565

improve and get information from

other states on how to do better?

566

Kathleen Wood: Absolutely.

567

Um, that's, you know, one of the

primary goals of this entire report

568

is to help states see where the gaps

are in their laws, um, and then also

569

to highlight those states that are

doing well and can serve as examples.

570

Um, so if Folks listening, go to our

website, there's an interactive map

571

and you can click on your state and

download the compendium that I was

572

talking about earlier, which is the full

text of all the laws that are divided

573

into those 20 different categories.

574

Um, and you can kind of skim through

and see what You know, here's where

575

my law is particularly strong.

576

Here's where we simply don't

have any law addressing cross

577

reporting or veterinary reporting.

578

And you can see very clearly where

the gaps are, and then look to

579

some of the higher ranking states

to see where models can be found.

580

DrG: And does the Animal Legal Defense

Fund provide resources like directly

581

or work with organizations and

advocates to help improve these laws?

582

Kathleen Wood: Absolutely.

583

Yeah.

584

Um, people are always

welcome to contact me.

585

I can provide, so my email

address is kmwood at ALDF.

586

org.

587

Uh, but I work with advocates and

legislators and, you know, other, and just

588

members of the public, uh, to help you.

589

I can provide a list of, you know, here's

where your state is doing particularly

590

well, here's where they could need, um,

additional help, here are some ideas, um,

591

and help point to some model legislation

that would, um, improve those states laws.

592

DrG: Excellent.

593

Well, thank you so much for spending

the time and explaining all of this.

594

It's really important because we talk

about, you know, as veterinarians, for

595

instance, like helping the individual

animals, but to actually affect change,

596

we have to make changes in the laws.

597

So whether we like politics or not,

whether we like the law or not, we

598

have to kind of get involved to, to

make changes that are actually going

599

to help protect animals and society.

600

Kathleen Wood: Well, I am always

happy to speak with people more,

601

um, about the report or about any

issues in your particular state.

602

Um, so please do feel free to

contact me and, um, thank you

603

so much for, for having me.

604

I really appreciate it.

605

DrG: Awesome.

606

Well, yes, thank you for all the

information that you have given us

607

and for everybody who's listening.

608

Thank you for listening

and thank you for caring.