Five short years from now, 2030 will be here—and the world of work (and life) is shapeshifting at warp speed.

We're all going to have to do some serious surfing to stay afloat, let alone to participate in creating the world we want.

Executive coach Anna Glynn helps sales leaders, which isn't me and probably isn't you either. But what she teaches them can help us all stay effective, engaged, and sane in the rough seas ahead.

In this conversation we unpack her STRONG framework—six evidence-based levers anyone can pull to build performance, wellbeing, and joy.

What We Talk About

• S – Strengths: spotting and flexing what you’re already good at to create robustness
• T – Trust (and psychological safety): the foundation for experimentation, feedback, and growth
• R – Resilience: bouncing forward (not just back) when the unexpected hits
• O – Optimism: the power of realistic optimism to fuel action, not complacency
• N – Networks: cultivating diverse, generous relationships that expand perspective and opportunity
• G – Goals & Purpose: aligning what you chase with why you’re here, to avoid burnout and boost meaning
• Micro-habits
• How to run a quick STRONG self-audit—and choose one lever to pull this week

Links

• Anna’s home base: AnnaGlynn.com.au
• Book: STRONG: How the Best Sales Letters Engage, Achieve, and Thrive
• Connect with Anna on LinkedIn

So I don't know about you, but it feels like change is happening a mile a minute these days. And when I think about it, five years ago was COVID. That feels like almost yesterday, which means five years from now, 2030 is going to happen in the blink of an eye.

and whatever is coming is coming, whether we're ready for it or not. So today's guest, Anna Glynn, works with people who have a very tough job. are sales leaders and you may not be a sales leader. I am not a sales leader, but if it works with sales leaders, basically it'll work with just about anyone who has a kind of knowledge job.

working with computers, other people, something other than, you know, physical manual labor. And she has a book out based on an acronym, STRONG, which is strength, trust, resilience, optimism, networks, goals and purpose. she explains how each of these contributes to performance, well-being and engagement so that we're not only doing well, we're not only staying well.

But we're enjoying ourselves. We feel like we're making a contribution. I all of us need to make a contribution these days because the world feels like it is ready to tip possibly into a really dystopian future and possibly to shake off these changes that are happening now and to move into something much more expansive and hopeful. And I feel like everyone going to put their thumb on that scale to help move it in one direction or another. So we need all of us.

So I hope you'll enjoy this conversation without further ado.

Anna Glynn. Welcome to the Plant Yourself podcast.

hello, Howie. It is lovely to be here.

Happy to talk to you. You've written a book called Strong and it's really written for a very specific audience. But and I don't know how many people are listening to this are in that audience, but because it's such an intense role and a place to be, it feels like what what you teach and share with them is going to be doubly useful for the rest of us because it's been sort of battle tested.

in that arena, and that arena is sales leaders. So we're not going to be talking about sales leadership per se, but looking at these life skills and life lessons about how to be happy, how not to burn out, how to be effective, how to reach your goals, how to give energy and delight to other people through your background and your experiences working with this group for whom it's been especially hard to

Mmm, that's it.

to achieve those things. So I'm excited for this conversation.

That's it, Howie. And what is interesting is, yes, a lot of people would say, I'm not in sales, but really every one of us is selling every day because we're all trying to influence a decision or another person, say for instance, you know, selling to my two year old son to go to bed. You know, there's lots of those examples where we're all trying to actually exchange some sort of value with someone else. So I do have an argument that

everyone is in sales even if they don't like to believe it.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Although I was reading it where you had that definition in the book about that everyone's in sales and that there's some medium of exchange. I'm not entirely sure what the value is that I'm, I guess it's just like a peaceful evening, right? Is what I get if the two-year-old goes to bed on time.

That is true, but the convincing to get the two-year-old to go to bed, yeah, there definitely has to be some sort of exchange there usually. But yeah, in all sorts of realms, we can think of how we're trying to build relationships, influence decisions, all those sorts of things which actually define what sales is.

Hmm.

Gotcha. I guess as I was reading the book, one of the challenges is, so if you're selling bed to a two-year-old or I'm selling my own consulting services to a company, we have a lot of control over the thing we're selling. Whereas if you're part of a sales team in a big organization, you have an example in the book about a company that had kind of lost its innovative edge.

And now you have all these people and they could be just as good as they were yesterday. But now they're selling something that's less valuable in the marketplace. So there's you know, there's that lack of control over what you're selling that can exacerbate all of the problems, the emotional struggles that people have when they're trying to convince other people and to exchange value.

Absolutely. And then I think that's where you're right that some people do have control or flexibility or the ability to flex and be adaptable to the needs of the environment. But really every organization should be doing that and responding to their customers' needs to ensure that they do have products that are desirable for the end consumer as well.

Yeah, and that goes beyond that goes to beyond sales leadership to sort of, know, organizational leadership from the very top. Right. Right. Because we know in organizations where I've consulted, there's typically rancor between sales and other divisions, whether it's legal or even marketing, which they should be working together, but certainly operations.

Right. Like I've rarely seen sales playing nice or perceived to be playing nice with the other with everyone else who has to deal with what sales ends up selling.

I think it's an ongoing discussion that comes up a number of different times when we talk about the great divide between sales and perhaps the rest of the business. And I think it goes both ways. There always seems to be some sort of conflict that occurs. But again, if we're talking about how we can get the best outcomes for our organizations and obviously our customers, it's making sure that we all

work together and collaborate and ensure that we're delivering the best product or service possible to the end person.

Yeah, I think all this is just to frame the fact that this is an extreme environment in which people are operating. I also don't imagine you have bedtime quotas for where you're going to get evaluated by your partner or other children or the neighbors for the timeliness and efficiency of

of getting your son to bed. So let's let's talk about strong into your book in terms of the acronym. Like these are the different elements that that you that you teach people how to optimize.

Yeah, that's it. And I guess I was lucky or fortunate that when I was doing my research and trying to uncover what are these key principles that lead to sustainable high performance in sales teams, what became apparent or lucky for me was that I was able to, you know, spell them out. So they did create that acronym called STRONG.

And it's lucky because I know that our brains absolutely love acronyms. It makes things easier to remember as we know, but it makes it much more digestible when we're talking about something that's quite complex and being able to break it down. And obviously an acronym like STRONG is quite catchy when we're talking about sales teams and also how we want our people to be in this particular environment.

want them to just be better. I don't think better gets us very far. I think going forward, given the amount of challenges we face, we actually do need to be stronger. So it works well in that way.

What's the distinction in your mind between better and stronger?

I see better being almost temporary. So focused around, you know, the quick wins around, let's just, you know, improve ourselves to get a little bit better going forward. strength seems to create much more robustness. And it means that we can, you know, navigate certainly those lows, but then, you know, also be stronger going forward to make sure that we're leveraging the highs as well. So I see stronger as something

much more deeper and something that we can achieve over a longer term and it helps us much more achieve that sustainable success we're looking for not just those you know short-term highs and lows.

Gotcha. So let's begin with the S in strong, which recursively is strengths.

Yes, yes. And that's, you know, maybe goes a bit or a bit tongue in cheek or goes a bit without saying, but yes, one element of being strong is how we each play to our strengths. And really strengths is such a fundamental in our worlds these days. And we're really fortunate that the last three decades of research have explored and been able to uncover the benefits of

not only knowing your strengths, but actually applying them in our lives and in our work. And strengths is a foundational element because the principle of strengths is focusing on what's right with us, situations, our teams, our organizations, as opposed to focusing on what's wrong. And probably traditionally in organizations, there has been this focus on

trying to fix our gaps or our weaknesses and thinking that that is the strategy that actually leads to better performance and success. But that research has absolutely debunked that and has realized that that is actually not a smart strategy for business success. In fact, doing that probably only ever leads to average performance. If we wanna achieve high performance, then we need to be leveraging what's best with us as well. But to do that,

it does require a lot of intentional effort because it's not something that comes naturally to us as humans and also our workplaces tend to have a bit of that deficit focus as well.

So I love the definition that you quote of a strength. I don't have it off the top of my head. can look it up. But the word energy is what jumped out at me as opposed to just like something that I just kick ass at.

Yes.

That's right, Howie. And that's probably why it is one of my favourite definitions. And it does come from Alex Lindley, who's one of the leading strengths researchers out of the UK. And he, perhaps quite distinctively compared to some other definitions of strengths, does use that lens of energy. And that's why I love it. Probably for similar reasons to you, because what it suggests is that yes, strengths are something that we do well.

but they also energize us because you and I both know and perhaps people listening in that there are things that you do in your day to day life, whether that's at work or somewhere else that you're good at, but they don't energize you. And so what we're suggesting there is it's actually not a strength of yours. It's probably more what we call a learned behavior or a capability you've had to learn to be good at for your job, but it's not something that has the energy element.

That's why strengths are a way that we can improve our wellbeing because they give us that energy, they make us more productive, we perform at our best, and they can also help de-risk us falling into struggling or burning out zones as well.

Hmm. So for myself, I'm a little confused about the energy in terms of, let's say, I love, you know, I love being a writer. I'm told by people that they've enjoyed my writing. I get paid for my writing. And yet when I sit down to write, it's hard to get started. And I'm usually tired at the end of it. Does that mean it's as opposed to like I do a coaching session or an interview like this?

Like, I can't tell you how many times I'll get off a call or training or something. And I'll tell you to my wife, basically, the abbreviation is I FLC, which is I love coaching or and like could writing be a strength that depletes me even. Right. Or is it not a strength? Is it just something that I have a talent for?

Well, I think from the definition that you gave, it's absolutely a strength of yours, but perhaps it's about considering how you go about it and the amount of time and when you're doing it and where you're doing it. So I share that similar to you, Howie, that I love writing. Like I love the process of writing the book, taking time out, planning, you know, going through edits.

interviewing people, the research, you know, putting it all together. Like I enjoyed that process. But then sometimes if I'm on a deadline or have to get something out quickly or it's something that I'm not that interested in, I find that component of writing to be quite draining. So yeah, it's probably because writing is, you know, can mean a number of different things to different people. Perhaps there's some things that really energize you about it, but might be other ones where, you know, you do find it quite fatiguing.

Yeah, as I think about it, my best writing is of playful, funny, a little weird, and the thing that gets me going is actually the thought of other people's reactions if I share it with them or read it to them.

Interesting.

And that's why it's good to have an understanding around your motivation around writing as well. Because if you were just told to write and you didn't feel interested or engaged in what you were writing about, you probably would find that more draining than perhaps the writing style that you have. But in addition to that, I will say as well, when you overuse something, it can be fatiguing. And so that's where we also talk about the energy piece with strengths.

Hmm.

is we use the analogy of a volume control and if you don't turn them up enough you don't get the benefits from them. If you turn them up too much and overuse them that's when they can become draining so it could be an overuse angle to consider with you as well.

Now, for most people, I don't find are cognizant of their strengths. I blame our education system. To me, it seems like the number one thing people should learn is what they're good at. And I think very few people do. Now, there's instruments out there. I've taken the Clifton Strengths Finder and a number of others.

think most people are not going to do that. But how do you recommend people interrogate themselves or even just give themselves permission to acknowledge strengths? How do people just start with that?

I absolutely agree with your points around that it's not something common for us to do. And there are a couple of key challenges as to why we don't. I mentioned earlier this inclination for us to focus on what's wrong. And so we have that as a human, it's called the negativity bias. It's an inbuilt mechanism, a survival tactic that we have. I firmly believe our systems, so our schools, our workplaces, our communities, our broader society,

also are influenced by that negativity bias. So we are inclined by our systems or encouraged to again focus on our weaknesses or what's wrong with us as opposed to what's right. Now in Australia, we also have this thing called the tall poppy syndrome, which is a cultural element, which I also think plays a massive role with Australians where we don't want to be proud and stand up and talk about our strengths.

because it might seem quite arrogant or overconfident. So we've already got these things in play that we have to try and overcome. So in answer to your question about, you know, well, how do we work out what these things are? Yes, you can, you know, complete tools, but I think there's some really simple questions you can ask yourself, you know, like what lights you up? What are you doing when you're in flow? You know, you are...

doing something so immersed in a task in front of you that all of a sudden you look up and time has just flown past, know, an hour's gone by and you haven't even realised. You know, what are these moments of you at your best? When you start to recognise what these moments are, you can then start to try and uncover, well, what strengths am I using in those moments? Because the chances are you're going to be using a strength to meet that challenge in front of you.

I had a very dark thought as you were speaking. Just a bunch of people I know would answer that question about like what I can spend an hour on and feel great and the time is video games.

Yes, and I'm okay with that. So this is what's interesting, Howie, because we have a big discussion out there about devices and video games, and I know that it happens in my household too. But what we know about video games is that they do bring on flow, and that is different to watching TV or scrolling through social media. The reason why it's different is because there's a challenge there.

Okay, because when you play video games, you're competing and you're trying to win something or navigate something. It's been a long time since I've actually played one. So I'm sure all the terminology has changed, but that does bring on flow for people. So there is a level of skill that you need, but you are using that skill to try and meet that challenge. So yes, in some ways I have to agree that, well, that's probably where people do find flow, but what are the strengths that you're using there?

But the hope is that we can find other examples in our lives, maybe outside the video games, where we also can experience those moments.

Well, that's what I'm thinking is that, you know, for people whose lives are not where there's not the challenge or there's challenge without meaning or challenge without compensation and fairness, that the video game is this world that's designed to make you use your strengths or the relevant strengths for reaching goals that are important to you. And I wonder if there's ways that people could figure out like.

the video games that they love to play and the skills and attributes that they're bringing to those could teach them about like how to tweak the rest of their life to get more of that.

Mm, potentially. know, absolutely, I'm sure there is a myriad of different video games out there that require different skills and strengths. Again, I'm not proficient in what they all are. I can probably only list off one or two that I've heard about. But that might give people some ideas or inspiration around, well, what are those skills or strengths? So I'll leave that one with you, Howie, and maybe you can report back to me what you think, what you've uncovered by researching that one.

Yeah, I'm going to reach out to a friend from his year older than me in high school who became a video game designer and theorist. I'm going to see if I have a strengths conversation with Jeff.

Excellent.

What else do we want to say about strengths for, you know, what if you discover that your strengths are not aligned at all with your roles?

That's part of the work that I do sometimes with people is that we, through the exploration of them at their best, their best self, what does that look like? What are their strengths? What brings on flow? Sometimes people then come to the realization that they don't get enough of those opportunities or experiences in their current roles. Now, that doesn't mean that we have to go and change roles or leave.

You know, the first step is always trying to shape or craft the current role to be more in line with your skills or your strengths. Now, obviously that might require discussions with managers and bosses and getting their sort of buy-in, but there is this strategy out there called job crafting, which is asking us to think about what are the smallest tweaks that we might be able to make within our roles, including how we could use our strengths more.

or which tasks we undertake to help our jobs better fit us. So it's a bit like going and getting a tailored suit. You know, they always fit better than the off the rack option. So what are those yet small little changes that you can make to try and use your strengths more? Obviously, that's one of the strategies. The other is then considering if that's not possible, what role is the best role for me and

How can I try and make my way towards that perhaps?

So one of the stories that you tell in the book is about a salesperson who is brilliant at the human part of sales, the negotiation charm and was having a lot of trouble filling out reports and was getting, you know, their boss was down on them and constantly criticizing and their morale was and the upshot was they found a friend.

who is really good at the reports. I read that and I was like, boy, know, can I tell my wife I'm really bad at cleaning the bathroom? And I see that as one of her strengths. Right? Like we can, you know, there's like things that, you know, say like, like for me as a person who identifies with like, let's be friends and I don't like paperwork. Is, you know, is it it always?

you know, responsible to offload the things we don't like on the pretends that they're not strengths or are there other stuff we still have to do?

Look, I'm not gonna get between you and your wife. That's my first statement. My second one is there are always gonna be things that you don't enjoy about life, administration or your work as well. And so I try and get people to aim for the 80-20 rule, right? If you're 80 % doing work you love and you're satisfied and you're fulfilled with it and it energizes you and makes you happy,

That's a massive tick in the box. I think you're always going to have 20 % of those tasks that you just go, oh, I don't want to do these, these completely drain me. But I think that's a good, a good balance to try and aim for. Yes, we want to try and think about strategies to maybe make those tasks, those boring or mundane tasks a bit more exciting or energizing, but that's not always the case. So no, we can't just

dump or delegate things to other people. Yet there is an opportunity to do that if it is their strength, which is the story that I told in the book. When you do that, a big realization for people, sometimes especially leaders, because when they delegate, they get worried that they are adding more onto their team's list and things to do. But if you truly...

delegate a task or a responsibility that is aligned with that person's strengths, they will not see that as a burden. They will see that as a gift because you are giving them something that lights them up. And I have seen those examples and we've had those conversations in workshops where someone has given something to someone else and they were so grateful for it. It doesn't matter how busy they were or are.

they will find the time to do it because it is something that lights them up.

Gotcha. So what I heard is that I should compliment my wife for how clean the toilet is.

Alright, let's see how that goes. Again, something else you can report back. Please do not share my personal details with her.

No, I seriously I I get it. There are I mean, for me, one of the challenges as I was reading that story is it's hard for me to believe that someone would enjoy doing spreadsheets. Like, I'm so I'm so sort of self-absorbed that I think that everyone is like me, like everyone would like to be out there giving speeches. And I know that's not true, but still.

It's hard for me to find a keep an assistant because I'm like, I'm giving them all the shit work I don't want to do. you know, that's not the case. There's people who really enjoy what I consider to be shit work.

They do, they do. And these are the conversations that I have in big teams where we get people to share, you know, what are the things that light you up? And they'll share something and I'll ask the room who else, you know, agrees with that? Who else finds that particular task interesting? And you might get a few other hands. Then I'll ask who thinks that is the most boring task in the world. And then, you know, the hands will fly out. And that's how I sort of speak to them about this idea that when

The things in our lives that light us up when we use our strengths are unique to us. So they will be completely different to the person next to you. And that's how this strategy kind of works. Because if we have diverse teams, it means that we can align those tasks and responsibilities to certain people and the other ones to the other people. And so we create these really diverse teams that are well-rounded as a collective. So again, this strengths strategy is about

not encouraging someone to be great at everything. It's actually suggesting get great at what you're good at and then allow other people to manage those gaps and those weaknesses. Hopefully those people on your team or maybe it is about outsourcing to the assistants or whoever else it might be.

Anything else on strengths before we move on?

think at the moment we have covered a lot already on that topic.

I agree. Great. So let's keep going through the title. What's the next letter that is lighting you up in this moment? Because I don't think we'll have time for all of them.

I know, well that's what I was just thinking. The other... sorry.

And that way people will buy the book.

That way people will have to buy the book.

Yeah, that's true, that's true. The other one, know, this is like you're asking me to choose a favorite child. Like they're all so super important to me. But you know, others that certainly resonate a lot with people is around the mindset piece. So I think, you know, there is a lot of conversations out there about mindset. But again, from the research that I've...

done and what I've seen within workplaces is that there's probably only one mindset that actually leads us to success in this world. Success of a definition of happy, healthy, longevity, income, all those sorts of things that we're looking for and that is optimism.

Hmm. That is a problem for me. I'm glad we're going there. This is turning out to be just a shrink session for me. I don't think I'm a pessimist, but I'm a lot less optimistic than a lot of other people around me, and I notice that. what got me down, being the non-optimist that I am, and strong, is you tell a story about how a sales organization

revitalized itself by choosing by doing that, you know, sort of a psychological profiling test for candidates and making optimism something they already had or didn't have the defining criterion for bringing them into the training program. And so I'm thinking, OK, so if you're selecting for optimism a priori, that means it's kind of fixed.

Well, that's right, that's right. And I wanna put a caveat around where optimism has a place and then also where we need more of the pessimist style of thinking. So that's why there's always a little bit of an asterisk around that. And it depends on who I'm talking to and what organization and sort of what role they have. So I think the first...

And maybe

start by just defining optimism.

Sure, sure. So optimists certainly think positively about the future, but they also take action to make it so. So there is an element of doing as part of the thought process that they have. Because of the way that they think that obviously has a massive impact on the way that we act as we know. And so that then determines what sort of outcomes we

achieve. Optimist though, it's not just thinking rainbows and butterflies. we had, you know, many years ago, a television show called Pollyanna. Do you remember Pollyanna? Have you heard of Pollyanna Howey?

I know the term, I don't know the TV show.

Okay, so she was a red-haired freckle-faced girl and she always looked on the bright side of life. So there is actually this concept called the Pollyanna Principle, which is where we have optimism, you know, turned up to the max at its absolute extreme, where that particular style of optimism can backfire. So obviously that's one where we aren't aware of current circumstances, we're not thinking about the challenges, and so then we put ourselves at risk.

So that's not what we're talking about here. Here we are talking about what I like to say is realistic optimism, where we are positive about the future, but we're well aware of the current reality and the challenges that we might be facing as well. Interestingly, when it comes to certain roles, or a lot of the research would suggest that, you know, in a place like sales or where you are customer facing that

you are going to have better outcomes. Now that's performance outcomes when you are more optimistic. When you are in roles where there is a risk or compliance elements, you know, places like air traffic controllers or lawyers or project managers or engineers, yeah, you're already thinking of your friends and family members, aren't you?

I'm just thinking about the skit called Optimistic Air Traffic Control. It'll be fine. No, I mean, I'm making it up in my head. No worries, mate.

I didn't know that!

Exactly, exactly. So that's where we want people to be a little bit more pessimistic, right? We are paying our lawyers and our air traffic controllers to look for the risk and to be incredibly focused on that and what could go wrong, not what, you know, potentially is going to go right. So that's where there is a place very much for

Right, I get it.

the pessimistic style of thinking or what we would say is being more prudent as well. So there's always a need for that pessimism even in those other roles that I was talking about as well. So I like to say, it's a glass half full of optimism with a dash of pessimism mixed in as well. So yes, when it came to the sales,

Mm-hmm.

organization that was used as the case study, they did introduce that optimism test, but they also did still have a selling aptitude test in addition to that. But it is a really interesting concept to consider when it is, when you think about who are we hiring. But in saying that, I certainly know plenty of pessimists that have been successful in sales as well.

Yeah, I think I can't remember exactly where I read this, but I saw some research that says optimists are happier and more successful, but pessimists are more accurate.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. And we say, you know, things like, you know, the only thing that optimists are bad at is, you know, telling us what the weather is going to be because it's always going to be bright and sunny.

But you did have so this is where the book redeemed itself for me in this chapter is you had to say, OK, so how do you learn optimism? And the thing that I took away from this most, there's a few things with the one that I really got well to actually was learning and gratitude so that if I'm pessimistic, if I don't think my team is going to win the game.

Hmm.

Mmm.

And but winning is the most important thing. I might not show up. might not try. I might say disparaging, depressive things on the sideline. But if I still think that we're going to lose because we are, we're not that good. We're going to lose this weekend. And this is a chance to learn and grow. And let's try out that new defense that we've been talking about. Then I can still be optimistic. I can still act.

optimistically, even if I'm not thinking optimistically.

Absolutely. And I think we have to go into most situations if we're talking about, you know, sport or even work to some extent, again, asterisks there with that positive mindset of even if we don't get the sale of the outcome, there is the learning opportunity. I am very fond of sports and watch a lot of sports and I know that

you can almost see or sense within teams when they have lost their mindset and that positivity. And what we know about negativity is that it is so contagious, so much more than positivity. So it ripples throughout teams. Even if it's unspoken, you can feel it. And so you can actually see where it occurs in games.

And that's why, you know, even when we think about sporting teams and setting them up for success, we've seen a lot of investment, yes, in their physical capabilities. But now we hear a lot more of the sports people talking about, you know, the mindset and the importance of that. How do you keep yourself in those that positive state, even if things aren't going your way? We've got some great examples over here in Australia in our Australian rules football where

there have been people nominated to tell jokes at half time, even if teams are losing, to get their teams into that positive way of thinking. I also encourage people to be thinking about just in general life, how do you start your day? How do you walk into the office? How do you greet your family or loved ones at the end of the day? Is it in a positive state? If it's not, how do you hack yourself so you can get into one, which are some of those things that you spoke about, like the gratitude as well.

Mm-hmm. Somehow this is reminding me, I think the researcher was Jonah Berger at University of Pennsylvania, who took a look at the statistics of, I think, tens of thousands of basketball games. And his question was, what's the point spread differential at halftime that most predicts victory? And it turns out that, according to his research, being down by one.

was the best thing because you're down by one. You're almost there. So you're still optimistic. You can win. You're not down by 10 or 20, but and you're a little bit hungry.

Yeah, yeah. And that's it, like, because when you are in that more positive or hopeful state in those examples, you're going to be more willing to put in the effort. So that's where we can see that direct link between the way that we're thinking and then the actions we take. Whereas if you are in the negative state and you think, we're not going to win, you're going to be more likely to give up. So then you're going to be more inclined to put in less effort because you don't see the reason why.

And that's why optimism does lead to all those great outcomes on the sporting field, in academics, in income and some roles, as we said, but also in terms of our relationships, also our health, our happiness and our longevity as well.

Yeah, and the other thing I mentioned, too, that was learning, the other is gratitude. So this is my first interview in my office since I had the floors redone because we had a water and mold problem. And there's beautiful new parquet floors. I just moved everything up here last night. The setup is not perfect. I'm not entirely happy with it. But I don't know if we can zoom in. I guess you can't go down there.

There's a small piece of the baseboard that doesn't match the rest of the baseboard. And it is so hard for me not to just stare at it and be pissed off in this beautiful office, in a beautiful apartment, in a beautiful city, in a beautiful country, in a beautiful world. And that is really a decision that I have to make because the default, again, the negativity bias or the, you know, all that is like

there's a thing that's out of place that's wrong. It draws the eye. And so to me, that's a little bit of emotional weightlifting to say, remember how much you're grateful for.

Yeah. And what's right about this moment and this room and what do I love? And, but it takes training exactly. As you said, we've brought up that little pest called the negativity bias again, and we have to train ourselves to overcome it. And that can come through the practice of gratitude. So a great way is spending time thinking about, you know, what am I grateful for? Or in those moments when we find ourselves being a bit negative and going, well, actually what's the flip here?

What's the positive here? What's the best here? Exactly as you've said, Howie, you're in this beautiful room, beautiful country, and you've got 99 % of a beautiful floor.

Right? And the work that I'm increasingly doing is I started out sort of sharing like basic principles of positive psychology and productivity and building habits and time management and focus and stuff like that. And I found myself drawn to the people who are extremely resistant to it. And the people that I first found, they're annoying or they're

they're stubborn or they're antagonistic. And what I discovered is that that's almost never the case, that there is some circuitry running unconsciously that makes doing all the things you're saying feel incredibly risky and unsafe. optimism is a great example, right? Someone who grew up in a very

insecure environment, right? Optimism is the last thing you want because your hopes get dashed time and time again. And now you're a grown up and you have a lot more control and you're good at stuff and successful. And still that old pattern will assert itself in moments of risk. I'm wondering if you have experiences with individuals or organizations where there is like an immune response against all of your strong ideas.

Absolutely, and I tend to talk about those people as the red apples, okay? So we've got the red and the green. So that's how I term them. And know, woo is one of my strengths, winning over others. So it's almost like a little challenge to be able to try and bring them on board, bring them over to the, not the dark side, the light side. But you're exactly right. Like a lot of, you know, what we talk about, you know, is it can feel that.

Ooh, I got a... Woo!

woo woo and it can feel soft and you know people can't see how it will benefit them. Sometimes that is fear because it is so foreign and unknown and it does feel uncomfortable to the way that we've done things. That's also something about strong as a concept like people will say to me you know it's it's quite simple and I'm like it is but it's really hard to do because if we were doing it we wouldn't need to write about it or talk about it.

And we're not because it's hard to implement because it does go against some of the ways that we've been brought up. For me, I just try and start small with people. Like if there are people that are incredibly resistant to some of these concepts, I just ask people to try things out. What we know about research and studies in science is that it's not proven. It's not 100 % going to work.

as much as the sales people would love to sell on that. My suggestion is always be your own guinea pig and work out what works for you because not everything will, but you might be surprised by what actually does. So there is that idea of also person activity fit. We've spoken about something like gratitude. That can be practiced in a number of different ways. I know my practice of gratitude has changed, same as mindfulness.

So yes, there's a concept there that we know has these benefits, but how does this actually fit in my life and how might it work for me? There's some of the things that I try and encourage people to think about and test just to see, well, how does it go for them as well?

Yeah, and think there's one of the ways I think we can help people is like, how do we change? We change by having experiences that change us, that we say, ⁓ I was wrong. Right. My assumption proved incorrect. And so we we revise. just sort of, know, this Bayesian updating of our optimal responses. But there's a way in which those old

responses can get locked in and are resistant to updating. And I think one of the ones that we skipped, the T around trust and psychological safety, is where people can try this new thing. Pessimism has worked for me my whole life, and I see how it's holding me back here. Is it safe to try a wee bit of optimism?

and to be supported whatever happens.

⁓ I'm here to support you Howie. For sure. I'd love you to try it.

So maybe we can end by talking about the T, the trust in psychological safety, which is clearly huge in sales. think most people in sales have seen Glynn Gary, Glynn Ross, where the third prize is you're fired.

Well, hope we're in a slightly new world, slightly more modern, modern day version where, you know, those old sales tactics and environments are kind of long gone. Well, that's certainly my hope, but I don't know if I'm being too optimistic about that. But again, it comes back to what does the data and the research tell us? But in addition to that, also what feels right as well? You know, again, a lot of these concepts we talk about,

just naturally feel like the right way that we should be doing things, but for a number of reasons, we're not. So similar with the trust and psychological safety piece, which is the T of strong. Even when we talk about things like trust, which is something that exists between two people, people always say, I trust them, I trust my teammates, I trust my customers, whoever it is. But yet in reality,

what we find is that the behaviors that they're adopting do not actually signal trust at all. And there's a lot of those sorts of examples. I can think of the working from home discussion that we're still having in organizations about do the leaders actually trust their teams to be productive at home? So they will say they trust their team, but if they don't allow that flexibility or that autonomy to some extent, now that doesn't just mean remote working.

But you know, the way that we are, you know, trying to monitor our teams would scream distrust from that example. Similar, was having a conversation with someone the other day who is in a sales environment, they're new, and you know, they were told that the environment was incredibly supportive. Now is from a training perspective, but because they're so competitive with one another, there is no one sharing anything to try and support that person. So again, that's not saying they're in a trusting environment.

The psychological safety piece is also something that a lot of people have been talking about over recent years, particularly since Project Aristotle, which was at Google, which was trying to determine what differentiates a high performing team from a lower performing team. And what that research led us to understand is that those environments where people feel safe to be

creative and innovative and make mistakes and fail and offer opinions and judgments and list goes on, tend to lead to better performance outcomes over the longer term. So again, you and I probably can think of scenarios we've been in and maybe some of the list is as well where psychological safety hasn't been present. And we know that feeling of how awful it can feel when you're sitting there and you can't say anything or do anything.

So again, the research will back it up. But again, I think intuitively, we know that these environments where psychological safety is present, where we don't feel like we're going to be judged, are where we can actually thrive as well.

Hmm. Yeah. And I found there's a surprisingly large number of organizations and people for whom psychological safety itself is unfamiliar. Like the baseline like you like you say, like people notice like, I don't feel safe. Like, that's the baseline. Right. So and I get this as a coach where once we've developed a relationship and they realize that I'm not going to judge them and I'm going to support them unconditionally.

that something melts. They're like, I've never had a conversation like this. This is right. And I'm not doing anything. I'm just not doing things.

I had a very similar experience in a coaching conversation recently where someone shared something with me and they said, is this the right answer? How do you feel about that? was like, it's got absolutely nothing to do with me. I support your goals, your purpose, whatever you want it to be. It doesn't bother me. I'm here to encourage and support you to pursue it.

Yeah. So what can leaders do to foster psychological safety, whether they're a sales leader or a family member or just someone in an organization? You write in the book that leadership isn't just about authority and role. It's an energy that you bring to a situation. So what are some tactics, strategies, and mindsets

for contributing to psychological safety. one, it's a great book, but a lot of what I took out of the book were quotes from the chapter tabbing, the chapter headings. But I put in one of your quotes in my quotes wall, is, leaders either contribute to or build psychological safety or are obstacles to it, something like that. So what can we do wherever we are in life to?

to contribute to the safety of the teams, groups, and social units of which we're a part.

Well, like anything, any behaviors that we're trying to build within organizations, it does start with our leaders because they do have such an impact on the rest of the organization. So if we want anyone to do anything, it does need to start with leaders. From a psychological safety thing, think first and foremost, leaders need to model that vulnerability, admit when they've made mistakes in the past.

but also create those environments where they're not just saying that it's safe to speak up, they're actually creating different ways and systems where they can elicit information and opinions and feedback from people. Because it's all well and good just to say, yeah, we're in a safe environment, people can speak up, but if people don't feel safe, then they're not going to. So we actually need to think about the different methods and ways that we can do that.

because some people will not feel comfortable standing up in a room full of people and sharing their opinions. Perhaps again, because it's not completely safe. So thinking about the ways to do that, how they can gather information from a diverse range of people as well. So they're not always just listening perhaps to the same voice or the loudest voice as well. Also allowing people to...

Think of new ways of doing things. Just because we've done something in the past doesn't necessarily that means it's the best way forward. So allowing people to be creative, innovative, think of new ways of doing things and going out and testing it and encouraging people that it's okay to fail. So it's coming back to that growth mindset we were talking about all those other things before where, you know, we see those failures as learnings and ways to actually improve going forward as well.

That's where we also want to be creating environments where we celebrate the small wins and the big wins. So people know that it's not just always about the end outcome, but the small little successes we have along the way also contribute to those great environments. So I think there's a lot of things that leaders can do to create those ways for people to feel safe within the organization. And it will have that ripple effect over time.

And how do leaders know when there is not psychological safety? one of the problems of being a leader is that people are scared to tell you that they're scared of you.

Yes, this is true. This is always a struggle with leadership. There's got to be a level of that self-awareness there, but obviously there are a lot of leaders out there that can be quite blindsided. But there should be some telling signs around what's being observed in meeting rooms. Like if they are the only person talking and no one else is, that's probably a clear sign that

There isn't a lot of psychological safety present. I know that I can sense it when I walk into a room full of people, where the energy's at, where their level of safety is at. But again, it does come back to the leader, as you said, obviously recognizing that and having to have that level of self-awareness as well.

So one of my mentors, Marshall Goldsmith, tells a story about a CEO who retired. And then at a dinner party, he told a joke and nobody laughed. And he couldn't understand why. And he asked his wife, is this joke no longer funny? She says, no, it was never funny. You were just the CEO.

And everyone else is laughing.

Right. That's probably a very, very, very hard one there. And that's, you know, sometimes they're those scenarios where yet people won't realize, you know, obviously there's ways of getting feedback from people around you, even if you are the CEO as well, as long as again, that's done in a very safe way.

But I think it can be perhaps a realisation for some people that they were part of environments and they might have been building environments where they weren't psychologically safe as well.

So how can people get your book, read more about your work, study with you, work with you?

Well, the best place to go is probably my website, which is anaglin.com.au, which does have links through to my book, including an audio version for those people that like to listen. But also that's got all information about the type of work I do as well.

Okay. And do you narrate the audiobook? good. good. Because everyone needs more Australian in their lives.

I did.

⁓ excellent. yes, you can listen to my voice for, I think it's about four to six hours of listening content there.

Awesome. Could you spell Anna Glynn for folks who are just listening?

Absolutely. So it's A N N A G L Y N N.

Gotcha. So two double N's.

It is in both.

Great. And who should think about reaching out to you to hire you to help? What roles, what level, what kind of organizations, and what sorts of issues?

Well, I typically like to work with the people who are wanting to try something new. So they might be tired of old ways of doing things. They're looking for fresh perspectives, strategies that are evidence backed as well. And typically who I work with are those ambitious professionals who are the high performers but are looking for ways that they can sustain success over the long term and not experience those feelings of

pressure and burnout and overwhelm that so many people are as well.

So do you work with individual salespeople or through organizations with leaders? How do people reach out to you?

So I work one-on-one from a coaching perspective with leaders or individual contributors as well. So I take a positive psychology coaching approach with that. And then in addition to that, I work with groups and teams. So within organizations, so running leadership and leadership development and team performance programs as well.

Anna Glynn, thank you for this wonderful conversation for helping me wake up on the right side of the mind this morning. Every time I look at my baseboard, I'm going to appreciate life, the 99 % that's going well. So it's Anna Glynn, a-n-n-a-g-l-y-n-n dot com dot a-u. Thank you for the work you do, for the light you bring into the world, and for taking the time today.

thank you for having me, Howie. It's been lovely.

Take care.

You too.

And that's a wrap. You can find the show notes with links to things we talked about today at plant yourself dot com slash six to five. So things are going to be changing around here. I have decided that I want to do more talking.

to explore more ideas, I'm in the middle of the well, the middle of the final stages of a book that I would like to get out. And it really helps me to just walk and talk. So I know a number of you have written to me saying you've enjoyed the walk and talks that I've done. ⁓ That's going to become a regular feature for a little while. I'll still have guests, but I'll figure out the right balance. But for a while, I think the podcast is going to be a lot of.

Man, the world is going crazy. Even here from the sunny and sleepy Mediterranean coast of Spain, I can see that things are shifting rapidly and no one knows where they're going.

And I want to be a part of an exciting, positive future, a future of growth, of justice, of peace, of regeneration, of people coming to their senses, of people coming together.

So the work I'm doing with individuals and organizations is really beginning to reflect more and more that hidden agenda. Right. As a coach, I'm not supposed to have an agenda. I'm supposed to come in and just help my client with their agenda. Well, too bad I have an agenda and my agenda is that careers and businesses are not just for profit or for performance or for success. They are for supporting human flourishing.

And that's where I want to put my shoulder to the wheel as a coach, as a mentor, a facilitator, a trainer to work with organizations so that I can leverage my time to help lots of people, help lots of people, help lots of people so that we can all move in this beautiful direction together.

He was an opera singer for 20 years And then he transitioned to being a business language coach, helping professionals for whom English is not their first language.

communicate clearly and persuasively and influential and comfortably in English. And we've been talking over the years and we realized that his market and my market are pretty much the same. So we started a podcast called The Fluent Edge, which I'll drop a link in the show notes. And you can also find it if you search The Fluent Edge on YouTube or any of the podcast platforms. And if you know anyone, a business professional who uses English as a second language and you think they would

benefit from our conversation, so we we each bring our own expertise. I bring communication in general and influence and leadership and composure. And Sean brings how to be an effective communicator in English, how to learn English, how to practice, how to study, how to refine your accent so that it can be understood by everyone.

Again, the fluid edge. And it'd be great if you could think of one person who could benefit from that and send them our way. All right. In movement news, I had a stress test and I passed. My heart seemed to do fine, but I'm still dealing with this sort of fatigue and dizziness and low blood pressure.

low heart rate after working out, in the increasingly hot Mediterranean mornings here. ⁓ I've not had any coffee today. I'm going to try a two week coffee fast to see if maybe I have some sort of paradoxical response to coffee and it makes me tired and I'll keep pushing away. I am getting strong. I'm just physically lifting more, ⁓ just having some trouble maintaining stamina with with more cardio stuff. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.

Hopefully I will figure it out sooner rather than later. That's it for this week. As always, be well, my friends.