Summary

In this episode of "Beyond the Smile" with host MaryLayo, we delve into the intricacies of finding not just a job, but a fulfilling career that aligns with one's interests and talents. Career and talent strategist Stephen Shortt, CEO of Career Fit, unpacks the importance of job satisfaction and how it contributes to overall happiness and good mental health.

Listeners will explore the idea of passion versus enjoyment in career choice, the growing phenomenon of career burnout, and the evolving landscape of jobs that may not even exist yet. Stephen Short emphasises the value of career guidance in schools and how parental expectations can shape—and sometimes limit—a child's career aspirations.

The episode also discusses how individuals can navigate career transitions, whether early in their work life or in their later years. It reassures those at career crossroads that happiness in their profession is not just attainable but deserved.

Concluding with a touch of spiritual wellness, MaryLayo offers a reflective tip from Psalm 37, inviting listeners to join her next time for more insights on mental health and spiritual wellbeing. Take a moment and delve into what may be 'beyond the smile'. Remember to follow, like and share if you enjoyed the discussion on the critical relationship between career satisfaction and overall life satisfaction.

For help in dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.

#BeyondTheSmilePodcast #FindYourCareerPath #PassionVersusEnjoyment #MaryLayoTalks #MentalHealth #SpiritualHealth

Timestamps

(00:00:01) Introduction to Mental Health and Spiritual Well-being

(00:00:45) Aligning Career with Interests

(00:04:01) The Cost of Misaligned Career Choices

(00:14:11) Career Guidance in Irish Schools

(00:16:31) Teen Readiness for Career Choices

(00:18:32) Future of Work Discussion in Schools

(00:24:49) Multiple Career Changes in a Lifetime

(00:26:01) Insights from the eBook 'Your Next Career'

(00:30:09) Transforming Passion into Career

(00:33:47) Identifying a Career Focus

(00:36:01) Biannual Career Trends Update

(00:38:30) Advice for Career Crossroads

(00:41:52) Spiritual Wellness Tip: Psalm Chapter 37

Guest details:

As a Career & Talent Strategist, Stephen is deeply committed to helping individuals and organisations in devising and achieving their career aspirations through a blend of career counselling, talent assessment, and strategic planning. His work with ETC Consult, CareerFit, Talent Select, Successful Succession, Delta Events and Distributed Training is centred around helping to match the right people with the right careers. Stephen’s upcoming books, “Your Future Career” and “Your Next Career,” are further examples of his commitment to helping others at different stages of their career journeys. “Your Future Career” is geared towards students and young professionals, while “Your Next Career” offers guidance for those seeking to change or enhance their career paths.

Marylayo's spiritual wellbeing tips: 

• Meditate on Bible scripture: Psalm 37:23-24
• Meditate on song: Open My Heart, Yolanda Adams

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Speaker A: Welcome to beyond the smile with

me, MaryLayo, a podcast that discusses mental

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health and spiritual wellbeing.

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If you like what you hear, please do remember

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to follow and share.

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But before we jump in, there may be episodes

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that are particularly sensitive for some

listeners.

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And if that applies, then I hope you'll join

me whenever you feel ready and able.

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In today's episode, I'm talking to career and

talent strategist Stephen Short, who, as CEO

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of Career Fit, is on a mission to make the

world a better place with happy people in

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fulfilling, rewarding careers.

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I first asked Stephen why it was so crucial

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for individuals to find a career that truly

aligns with their interests and aptitudes.

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Let's join in the conversation.

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Speaker B: Well, I mean, you're going to spend

most of your adult life, you're going to spend

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most of your waking days in your career.

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You're going to be working on something.

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I mean, the normal office hour, the normal

traditional office hours, from nine to five or

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eight to six or whatever it is.

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Between sleeping, traveling, you'll spend more

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time with your colleagues than you'll spend

with your family when you really break it down

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and think about it.

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So why would you spend your time doing

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something that makes you miserable or doesn't

fulfill you, just to try and squeeze some of

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those bits of fulfillment out in the couple of

hours that you have?

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Outside of that, my contention is that people

in general are happier doing something that

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they enjoy doing and are more productive doing

that thing.

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Whether they might be saying, okay, I can be

an engineer and make 100,000 a year, or I can

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be a podcast host and a consultant to make

80,000 a year, but I'm actually doing the

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stuff that I love doing.

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So rather than chasing that extra 20,000 and

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being miserable for the year, I can do

something I'm passionate about and feel the

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energy of it.

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So my thing is always find what you're

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interested in, find what you're good at.

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Spend your time doing that, but don't follow

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your passion.

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Speaker A: Don't follow your passion.

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Did you say?

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Speaker B: No. So this is stuff that I hear a

lot.

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It's really well meaning, it's well meaning

advice, and the idea behind it is absolutely

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correct.

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Find something that you're passionate about

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and continue doing.

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But unfortunately, for a lot of people, when

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they hear the phrase follow your passion,

you'll never work a day in your life.

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They start to think about the things that

they're passionate about, which tend to be

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their hobies, their outlets, their ways of

doing the things that they enjoy doing.

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And then when they try to make that pay their

bills, then it stops being enjoyable, it stops

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being an outlet.

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It stops being a way of venting, and it starts

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to be something which they have to put lots of

time and energy into.

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And then they don't even have that thing as an

outlet when they get stressed from work.

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So for me, it's not follow your passion.

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For me, it's find out what you're passionate

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about in a professional context and go do that

and then still have your passions, whether

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that's archery or pottery or playing cards or

movies or whatever, have those areas as well.

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And those are your passions.

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But find something that you're passionate

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about doing and that you're interested in and

you're good at.

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Speaker A: Okay, that's quite an interesting

take.

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And it does make sense, actually, because I

learned the hard way, and that was one of my

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first, or it was my first adult lesson,

because I was so miserable in the work that I

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was doing at the time.

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And I thought to myself, I want to do

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something where I'm not miserable at work, I'm

not miserable going to work.

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I'm not miserable after work because I know

that I'm going to have to go to the same work

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the next day.

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I need to do some things that I'm actually

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going to enjoy and have that interest in.

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So kind of leading to that, what are the

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common signs that you've come across that

someone's in a career that doesn't truly align

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with their strengths, it doesn't align with

their passions, or let's call it interest.

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Speaker B: Yeah. The quickest and the easiest

thing to see is burnout.

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I mean, people get burnt out really quickly

because they not only have the energy that

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they're putting into doing their job and doing

their job well, because most of the people who

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are doing these jobs, they're still highly

professional, they're still very dedicated

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people.

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They're doing everything they can to be

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successful in the job, but then also trying to

keep up that energy or not have that outlet to

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be reinvigorated and inspired by what you're

doing or from outside or having enough time to

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have that work life balance where you're able

to follow all of your passions outside, you

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don't have that.

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So you expend even more energy and work doing

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something to a certain degree, but really

having to force yourself into doing it.

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So you get burnt out really quickly, which

leads to we've all seen people who have, like,

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we all have this kind of jar of dealing with

stress and dealing with anger and dealing with

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annoyance.

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And when the level is quite low, we can

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tolerate all kinds of stuff, and we can not

flip out and not shout at other people or not

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lose it with our spouses or our partners or

whatever, but when that starts to get higher

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and higher, we've seen people, we've all seen

people like this in our life where a little

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thing will just set them off because their

level of stress is already so high.

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And the reason that their level of stress can

be so high is because they're not only doing

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the stress of the job, but also the stress of

forcing themselves to care about the job or

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forcing themselves to push through the job.

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So their tension and their stress is higher

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and higher, which means that they explode much

quicker and they get burnt out and they get

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frustrated and they get annoyed and they get

grumpy and they get depressed.

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And it's just a horrible spiral of a place to

be in.

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Speaker A: So given that, especially when it

comes to young people, given that schools,

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even universities, their role is to equip

students to understand and work out and be

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prepared for careers or potential career

paths.

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So how can schools, how can universities, how

can those educational establishments, how can

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they better equip students, really, when it

comes to that?

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Speaker B: So, again, this is something we see

all the time.

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It's very well meaning and it's very

structured.

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And when you think about why schools were set

up originally in the day, schools were set up

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like factories, to train people to work in

factories, but we don't do that anymore.

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So the world that schools are training people

for now, they're not the same as the world

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that schools were training people for when the

system of education and school systems were

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set up.

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And there's a great talk by Sir Ken Robinson.

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He's passed away now.

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He's TED talks where.

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He talks about, really, the only thing that

these kids have in common with each other as

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they're going through school is they're

manufactured by date.

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So their date of birth or they're stamped.

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They come in, they go through 18 years of

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college, 16 years of college, whatever, and

school, they're stamped with a created on

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date, and then they're off in the world.

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But we all know people in school that were

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brilliant at some subjects and not good at

some subjects, or there are different schools

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that are looking at maybe streaming people in

different ways.

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So instead of just classing them by their age,

they're starting to look at ways that they

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might be able to class students by their

ability in that subject so some people might

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take longer to click with mathematics, and

they struggle because they're just moving

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through the years, whether they click with it

or not.

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And they're just at a lower level.

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And then you're on the scrap, not on the scrap

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feet, but you're not living up to your

potential.

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The other thing that I see a lot, and it

causes an awful lot of burnout and it causes

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an awful lot of stress and anxiety in

students, especially when they get to college,

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is, well, you studied this in school, you were

good at this subject, history, politics,

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mathematics, whatever.

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So you should study that in college.

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And then they go to college and they do the

course, and then they realize, I would

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actually hate to do this on a day to day

basis.

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I don't want to do this for my job.

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I enjoy the subject, but it has no relevance

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to what kinds of a career I want.

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And we have people who, I've met so many, I

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have actually, people on my team who studied

science, loved science, loved biology, but

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actually hated the job of being a biologist

and hated the job of working in a lab.

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But the bits about the science and the biology

that he really enjoyed, like the process and

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the structure and following through and taking

an idea and following the steps and having all

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that allows him to be amazing in our business

as our general manager, as our coo, because he

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puts structure and puts orientation on the

business, and that's how he's finding a

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rewarding career, doing things, elements that

he loves without necessarily having to do the

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science of it and working in a lab.

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Speaker A: Yeah, I get you.

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In the sense that I too, kind of robotically

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went for subjects because I was good at it.

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But did I love it?

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Did I see myself, for example, being in a lab

at the end of studying so many years in

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pharmaceutical sciences?

Definitely not.

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I get it.

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And so I guess what you're saying is schools,

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universities need to have a bit more a

comprehensive way of advising students, not

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just necessarily by subject, but basically

almost like those transferable skills or

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natural graces that those students will have,

and to look more widely rather than this

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subject, that subject.

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Speaker B: My mantra with students is always

career over course.

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So what's the end goal of the career at career

fit?

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Like, we help people at all levels.

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We have a whole package for schools with

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school dashboards where the school counselors

or the year heads can actually manage their

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whole school and their whole class.

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But we tell the students, we're not really

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interested in the next four to five years of

your academic career.

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We're interested in the next 45 years of your

actual career.

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What's the ultimate career for you?

What's the ultimate career path for you?

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And how can we reverse engineer that back to

today?

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Whether that's subject choices or college

courses, or if you're already finished

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college, how can you start looking at your

transferable skills and moving into that

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direction that's more aligned with what you

want to do?

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Because what we want to do is, and I think you

mentioned this already, I'm on a mission to

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make the world a better place with happy

people in fulfilling, rewarding careers.

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That's all I care about.

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That's all I want to do.

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And we do this from a career guidance point of

view.

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We do this from a selection point of view.

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But all I want to do is make sure that people

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are in the right careers for them.

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Because every career that exists, there are

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ideal candidates for those careers.

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There are people who would.

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A career that you and I, or you might think,

and I might think is, jeez, that's so boring.

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Who would want to do that?

There are very process driven people who

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really enjoy those types of careers that maybe

more strategic or more long term thinking

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people get bored by.

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But then the people who are more strategic and

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the people who are more process driven and

structure driven, they get really nervous and

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anxious thinking about what's going to happen

in nine months time.

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They don't want to think about nine months

time.

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They want to think about nine weeks time.

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So there are absolutely amazing places for the

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right people to be able to work together and

to be able to gel together and complement each

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other in a workplace.

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And that's the ideal for me, to have a group

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of people who are fulfilled and rewarded

working in the right direction.

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Speaker A: So those who are career guidance

counselors, they have a very specific role,

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almost like, I won't call it responsibility,

but certainly a role in guiding and shaping

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and helping many students try and figure out

what are they going to do in their life when

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they're older.

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Speaker B: It's an ion impossible for a 16

year old.

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And this is the other thing that I think

sometimes parents lose a bit of sense on that

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with a 16 year old, you're asking them to go,

okay, what do you want to do in ten years

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time?

They've only been on this planet for 16 years.

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They've only really been able to think for

themselves for about five.

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So you want them to take their entire five

years of life experience and double that into

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the future without knowing anything about

really what's coming down the line or what the

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world of work is actually going to be like.

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So that's why career guidance counselors and

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career guidance specialists and career

guidance tools and everything else are so

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beneficial to people of that generation,

because they have no idea what kinds of

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careers exist yet.

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And there's plenty of times when people have

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discovered their ideal career in their, they

go, my God, this is amazing.

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And they've stumbled into it and they've found

their way to it.

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And that's phenomenal.

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But what if we can actually help these people

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to find that career at an earlier stage?

Because we know what it takes to do well in

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that career, what kind of interests are

required to be engaged in that career?

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And we can actually start to showcase to

people, you know what you're thinking about

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this, but actually just have a look at this

career and you drop down the career with the

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description and they start reading the

description, oh my God, I didn't even know

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that was a thing.

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Like, how do I do that?

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That's amazing.

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And in career fit, we have a database of 1269

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careers that exist in the world.

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There are adults that don't know half of those

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careers or a third of those careers or be able

to explain those careers.

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So how is a 16 and 17 year old in 6th form or

in their final years of school before they go

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to college, how are they going to know those

courses, or, sorry, those careers to know

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which courses go into it?

So that's why having conversations with career

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guidance counselors and having conversations

with people who specialize in this area is so

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beneficial to people, to get themselves on the

right track, to be focused and happy as they

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go into their professional career.

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Speaker A: So, you know, Stephen, like X, many

years ago I was a beneficiary of a tool like

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the one you're talking about.

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So I know how valuable and helpful it was for

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me.

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So how regularly used are these types of tools

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in schools, perhaps, or perhaps even in

colleges?

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Yeah.

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Speaker B: How common is it in Ireland, every

school, every secondary school, the equivalent

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of a 6th form college, has a dedicated career

guidance counselor as part of the curriculum.

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In the UK, you don't have that.

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Now there is talks.

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I was at an event in London a couple of weeks

ago and I did meet some people from the

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mayor's office in London.

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And I understand that Ofcom is really starting

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to try and push that and use the irish model

as an example of how it can be superbly

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beneficial to these young people to help them

get on the right track.

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And for people who have no direction, once

they have a view of actually, that's what I

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want to do.

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It can help them to improve their studies,

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improve their retention, because they see the

point of instead of just going, the world is

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huge, I don't know what to do.

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So I'm just going to drift.

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When they actually have a direction and a

focus, they can align to it.

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I'm going to be at a couple of events in

London again in the next couple of weeks, in

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the next couple of months that are geared

towards secondary schools, because we can help

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them to actually implement these things to get

their young people onto the right tracks for

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them.

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And it means that the career guidance

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counselors and the teachers can actually spend

their time having much more in depth

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conversations with the students about the

careers in the report, as opposed to trying to

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juggle a norm table and another interest

inventory that they get online and something

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else in their studies.

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Whereas all of our psychometrics pull

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everything into one place and one report so

they can have a conversation about that, to

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have a really strong starting point.

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Speaker A: So basically, depending on the

country where someone is based, will depend on

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how easily they can access such a tool or even

person to help.

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Speaker B: Mean, from our research in the UK,

there are hundreds if not thousands of people

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who are counselors who can help with careers.

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They might not have the same experience and

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tools, but they can use our tool.

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In Ireland, there are lots of career guidance

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counselors.

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In America, there are lots of career guidance

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counselors.

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Sometimes, though, people can.

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I think people feel that they don't want go to

career grounds counselor.

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They feel that they can figure it out on their

own, and they might, but it could take them

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ten years instead of spending a couple of

hundred quid with somebody who knows exactly

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what they're doing to help you to get on the

right path, to actually move you in the

290

direction to have a fulfilling, rewarding

career and be a happier person.

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Speaker A: So, like earlier, you were talking

about how parents, they kind of need to

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understand how almost like the child, their

child, their teenager may not be ready to

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make, to be able to kind of say, this is what

I want to do.

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Yes, this is the idea that I have in terms of

the direction I want to go in.

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So how can parents almost, I won't say, take

their foot off the gas, because it is

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important to have those conversations with

your child and try and steer them and support

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them, direct them, perhaps.

298

So how can parents, what advice would you give

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them in terms of not putting that pressure on

the child, but actually being that effective

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ally, that supportive, almost like playing

that supportive role when it comes to their

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kids and pursuing the right career path,

because that's a challenge.

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Speaker B: Absolutely.

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Now, some of it is.

304

Also, parents might have a preconceived idea

of what a successful career is, so they might

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have an idea that actually you're going to

have to be a lawyer, or you're going to have

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to be a doctor, or you're going to have to be

an engineer, and nothing else matters.

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And they don't understand the concept of you

can actually make money and you can make a

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very good living doing 100,000 different

things in this world.

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There are podcasters who are making a load of

money.

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Who'd have thought, when we were kids, now I'm

older than you, but when Super Mario first

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came out and everybody was playing the

Nintendo's and not the Ataris, the game boys

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and all these games, and parents go, oh,

nobody's going to pay.

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Going, you're not going to make a living doing

that.

314

And now we see all these esports and people

who are making hundreds of thousands of euros

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and pounds and dollars twitch streaming, and

because people are feeding that enjoyment.

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So these are kind of careers that parents

don't even really know about, because it's not

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their job to know about those careers.

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So I give a talk in schools called what's the

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future work?

And I list out ten different careers that

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didn't exist when these students started

primary school.

321

So that's, I mean, they haven't even finished

school yet, but the jobs that the school is

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purporting to prepare them for didn't exist

when they started school.

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So like app developer, drone operator, even

social media influencer, none of that existed

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ten years ago.

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So these are careers that exist that can be

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very fulfilling and rewarding for students,

but the parents might not see it.

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The parents might see all those influencers,

all those people, they're just shaking their

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backsides on social media or whatever, they

don't get the cultural concept of it.

329

So there can be unconscious biases in that.

330

And parents only want the best for their kids.

331

They only want them to be successful and happy

and all the rest of it, and maybe produce

332

grandkids or whatever it is, but it's well

meaning.

333

It's the same as follow your passion, never

work in day life.

334

It's extraordinarily well meaning, but it's

just not useful.

335

So having that conversation, and with parents

as well, it can be their kids, especially at

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1617, they're going through all this angst,

they're going through all this other

337

difficulty anyway, that if we actually

remember back to when we were 16 and 17, we

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didn't want to talk to our parents about

anything either.

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Speaker A: Definitely not.

340

Speaker B: So having the awareness that it's

not a detractor from your relationship with

341

your child to actually have a career guidance

counselor talk to them, and also maybe you

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have a look at their report.

343

I remember we did a career guidance for a kid,

344

and referee was one of the careers that he got

because he had a massive interest in sport.

345

He did the ability and all the rest of it.

346

And one of the 16 careers on the report was

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referee.

348

And his parents were extraordinarily insulted

349

that that was something and rang us and were

giving out yards, feet and inches to us.

350

And at one point in the conversation we

actually said, have you spoken to your son

351

about this?

No, I haven't.

352

I've just read the reports.

353

Well, I tell you what, look, sit down with

354

your son and go through it, and then we'll

have a call in the next day or two and we'll

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see what we do.

356

And if you want him to come back in and we can

357

do a rejig and we can do everything else.

358

And to be fair, the father rang us back two

359

days later and said, actually, the son has

shown me what a living people can make, how

360

much he enjoys it, what he would like doing,

because he doesn't want to be a football star,

361

but he likes the process and he likes all

this.

362

And he rang us back, actually, this sounds

like an ideal career for my son and a good

363

career path for him to enjoy and make a decent

living out of.

364

So there's all kinds of things that are out

there, and sometimes parents, not that they

365

need to have, it's very difficult for them to

have the mentality of what is going to be

366

facing their children as they go out into the

world.

367

I had another conversation with a principal of

a school about his daughter who was in the

368

final year of school, and he was saying that

she wants to do a course that just allowed

369

whatever course and career she's picking, it's

to allow her to travel.

370

And I was saying, okay, that's great, but

actually you're limiting a huge number of

371

careers that you might enjoy that by the

nature of remote work and hybrid work.

372

Now you can travel with those as well.

373

So she was thinking about teacher and language

374

teacher and things that were very specifically

in that educational sphere that allowed her to

375

go from place to place.

376

But actually you can be a web developer, a

377

software person, you can be an engineer, you

can do all kinds of things with a laptop and a

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good Internet connection.

379

The Bahamas is a great example of this.

380

They're the first country in the world to

issue nomad visas where digital workers and

381

remote workers could go to the Bahamas, not

have to register for local taxes and all the

382

rest of it.

383

They live based on their taxes in the country,

384

their residence in.

385

And all of this stuff is going to become just

386

more and more prevalent.

387

So a lot of the students that are in secondary

388

school now and 6th form now, by the time they

finish college, the world of work is going to

389

look drastically different from the world of

work that the parents knew, even post pre

390

Covid.

391

Speaker A: Like even just the other day I was

speaking to, I was having a conversation with

392

someone who was talking about how they want to

basically do feather studies.

393

They want to basically be a data analyst.

394

Speaker B: Huge area.

395

Speaker A: So then I was kind of thinking

about how wouldn't machines be doing that kind

396

of work and taking out the human element in

terms of the need to do that analysis in the

397

near future or not so distant future.

398

The world of work is changing so much because

399

of the technology advancements that we are now

seeing.

400

It's evident.

401

So how much of that should people be taking

402

into consideration when they're thinking about

going on a course, maybe moving into a

403

different career?

Especially when those roles, I'm not saying

404

they're traditional, but they are somewhat

traditional.

405

Speaker B: So when it comes to things like

data analytics and AI, first of all, I'm an AI

406

optimist.

407

I truly believe, like every other technology

408

that has come out that people railed against,

that says going to replace jobs, I think that

409

it will create more jobs than it removes.

410

I think it will replace certain jobs the same

411

way as the tractor when it first came out,

replaced a lot of jobs the first way that a

412

computer replaced some jobs and people had to

be trained and people learned new ways of

413

doing things.

414

So I fully expect that there will be a

415

plethora of new roles and new jobs that will

be somewhat niche and somewhat specialized,

416

but there'll be branches of existing trees,

there'll be branches of existing career

417

opportunities.

418

Great example is a friend of mine is a

419

sustainability specialist in a big company.

420

She's in her late fifty s. That role did not

421

exist, that job, that whole idea did not exist

when she entered the workforce.

422

But she got into recycling, she got into stuff

in the office and trying to get those

423

initiatives, and she tended to be in the ho or

l and D kind of area of the company, and

424

that's what she focused on.

425

And she was very happy doing it.

426

It filled an awful lot of the criteria for her

to be interested in it.

427

She had the ability to do it.

428

And then as these new careers started coming

429

on stream, like a sustainability specialist,

she was in the right place to position herself

430

to move into that career.

431

The kids.

432

The kids, I hate saying kids, but the 16 year

olds that are like sitting exams now in the

433

next couple of years and going to college,

studies have shown that they're going to have

434

six or seven or eight careers by the time they

eventually retire.

435

They're going to live much longer lives and

they're going to have many more options.

436

And this, to me is how that's going to happen.

437

So they're going to go in one direction and

438

then new careers are going to emerge.

439

But it's not like somebody's going to be an

440

accountant and then something over here is

going to pop up in sustainability, for

441

example, and they're going to have to make

this massive leap over.

442

It's going to be in similar veins where people

are able to branch off and specialize off to

443

find even more fine tuned areas of interest

that they can take part in.

444

Or they might go, okay, I've done as much as I

can now in marketing.

445

I think I'd like to have a go at teaching for

a bit, or I'd like to have a go at

446

engineering, or I studied engineering, but

I've done it for a bit.

447

But actually I want to do something a little

bit more outdoorsy.

448

I want to do something because we have

different facets of our personality that

449

different careers will speak to.

450

So there might be times when people, it will

451

seem like a huge jump, but it's actually two

areas of the same person's personality that

452

are of interest, and they're going to go along

the path this stage.

453

I wrote a book, an ebook last year called your

next career, which is aimed at actually

454

helping people who are in careers that they're

either burnt out from, that they don't love

455

anymore, or that they never loved, and how can

they move into their next career and what are

456

the things that they can do to make sure that

they're understanding what they're actually

457

bringing to the table and what experiences are

transferable and maybe what courses they might

458

need to do to bridge that kind of stuff

because life is too short.

459

Why would you spend the next 40 years doing

something that you really don't like doing?

460

Speaker A: So what about if someone is nearing

the end of their career because they're older

461

and they're not happy or satisfied.

462

They haven't really had that job satisfaction.

463

So I would say many people who aren't happy

per se in their roles, but are in a fairly

464

good job in the sense that it's bringing them

that security, that income, that regular

465

income.

466

What are your thoughts in terms of how that

467

compares to being in a fulfilling, rewarding

career and whether they should actually make

468

that move, especially?

I don't know.

469

Especially since there's that maybe this

stereotype that when it comes to the job

470

market, employers, they don't necessarily

favor older candidates.

471

Yeah.

472

So what's your thoughts on that?

473

Speaker B: So again, as we get older, as human

beings, we tend to be like, psychologically we

474

tend to be more risk averse because when we're

in our 20s, we're not risking much because

475

we're not making a lot of money.

476

We don't have a mortgage, we don't have kids,

477

we don't have all this other stuff.

478

As we get older and older, we perceive that we

479

have more to lose.

480

We feel that if I gave this up, I wouldn't

481

have this quality of life or I wouldn't have

this that or the other.

482

That's a decision that only an individual can

make.

483

Like, how comfortable are they with this idea?

And going to a career guidance counselor and

484

going to somebody who specializes in career

change later on, even just to have a

485

conversation can be really clarifying for

these people to actually get well, maybe there

486

aren't positions, but if I've worked my way

up, if I've worked my way to a certain level,

487

middle management or something like that, with

my experience and my age, maybe I can change

488

industries, maybe I can do something else.

489

Because management and leadership and EQ and

490

dealing with people and all that is necessary

on all levels.

491

And personally, I would always say if you're

financially able to do it and comfortable

492

taking that risk, to say, look, I want to try

something new, even at 55, 60, because 65 is

493

the old retirement age.

494

Because our life expectancy was 60, we're

495

living into our eighty s and ninety s now.

496

So 65 is not the end game anymore.

497

And by the time the students that are coming

through, they're not going to be able to get

498

pensions by 65.

499

They're going to be working till they're 75

500

anyway.

501

And medicine is keeping us healthier and

502

happier.

503

So having that quality of life and having that

504

challenge doesn't mean that you need to just

sit back and do nothing.

505

My parents are in their late seventy s and

they're still involved in our business.

506

They're still involved they don't work day to

day in it like nine to five, but they do stuff

507

all the time.

508

Because I believe that you don't retire

509

because you get old.

510

My belief is you get old because you retire.

511

If you don't have something that you're

passionate about, if you don't have something

512

that is a purpose for you to do, then you

start to sit and just wait for the inevitable.

513

So I'm a big proponent of people in their

third age actually getting out there and doing

514

stuff and still having a purpose to get up

every morning and having something to do that

515

keeps them going and keeps them active and

mentally young.

516

Speaker A: Yeah.

517

Speaker B: And that is not an excuse for

parents to just pike off their young kids on

518

their grandparents to look after them.

519

It's about having what the grandparents want

520

as well.

521

Speaker A: So earlier you mentioned about

being interested and enjoying a role rather

522

than being passionate about a role.

523

So how can someone basically differentiate

524

between, this is something I really enjoy and

love doing and it being something that is a

525

hobby or could actually translate into a

career?

526

Yeah.

527

Speaker B: So again, it depends.

528

It's a very consultant, the answer, but it

529

depends on the person, it depends on the

situation.

530

So, I mean, there are people who have turned

their passions into careers and they're able

531

to find the little switch to be able to push

that in.

532

But I've also met equally a number of people

who have, especially since entrepreneurship

533

became this sexy term in the last 1015 years,

that everybody wants to be a startup and to do

534

something and to have a side hustle or

whatever, and they end up resenting having to

535

do what they enjoyed doing before to pay the

bills.

536

So for me, it's your passion and the things

that you're passionate about that allow you to

537

vent, that allow you to let off steam, that

allow you to exercise that creative part of

538

your brain if you want, but you don't

necessarily need that all day, every day.

539

It's just a way for you to maybe do bits and

pieces.

540

You might have a small etsy store that you

decide, I'm making a bit of money, but I'm

541

just doing that on the side.

542

I would think long and hard about turning that

543

into a business because what I would encourage

people to do is actually look at the functions

544

within that hobby or within that passion that

you enjoy doing on a day to day basis.

545

So if it's the process that you like the idea,

let's say it's candle making, and you like the

546

idea of being able to cut and measure and mix

and do things, and then you work the process

547

and the process and the process and process.

548

That process is for you to let off steam.

549

But actually in your work, you might be a very

process driven leader and you might be in

550

something which requires a lot of structure as

opposed to in marketing.

551

And you're coming up with ideas all the time.

552

You might have an interest in marketing, you

553

might have an interest in process.

554

So you might actually be the executive person

555

who's looking after the posts and the

structure and how the blog gets done and how

556

the photos are done, and making sure that

things are on time, that the video assets are

557

coming in and making sure that all that is

happening.

558

And then you have the process of the candles,

which you're also interested in and giving

559

away as presence to be an outlet, but it's

still fulfilling the process side of it.

560

So the passion and the interest is not the

candles.

561

It's actually the process of making those

candles.

562

With sport, if your passion is sport, it could

actually be what you like is the camaraderie.

563

What you like is the working in a team as

opposed to working on your own.

564

That's the bit that we can take and look at.

565

Okay, in a workplace, this is the kind of

566

culture that you need.

567

You need a more camaraderie.

568

You need people to be working in a team as

opposed to be isolated.

569

There are other times, other hobies, which

might be gardening, which actually what you

570

like is the solitude.

571

What you like is actually being away and

572

seeing things grow over time.

573

So maybe that's the type of career, that's the

574

type of thing that you should be looking at.

575

In a career where you're maybe working on your

576

own, you're more resilient to making sure that

things are happening and that you're working

577

to see something grow and see a project go

from start to finish.

578

Speaker A: Because obviously people tend to

have more than one skill set, more than one

579

gift.

580

How would someone know what to focus on for

581

that to then lead to a pathway that they

follow?

582

If I'm not going to say they've got competing

gifts, but they've got multiple gifts, and

583

let's just say they enjoy doing many of them,

how would you even get to that point?

584

Or how would you guide or what would you

suggest when it comes to being in that kind of

585

situation?

586

Speaker B: So from a purely academic point of

view, so we're just thinking about this

587

without real tangibles.

588

If you have all things being equal and you

589

say, I would love to do this, or I would love

to do this, or I would love to do this, and

590

you have three things that you say, I would

love to do all three of those.

591

Then, in theory, it doesn't matter which one

you pick, because you'll never actually know

592

if the other two would have been the right

decision.

593

And people sometimes squirm under this, go,

well, what if I make the wrong decision?

594

And what if I make.

595

The great thing about this is you'll never

596

know.

597

If you spend five years getting really good at

598

the one in the middle, you'll never know.

599

It might be not as big a trajectory as if

600

you'd picked the one on the left and you might

have been more successful on the one on the

601

right.

602

You might have gone to work and met the love

603

of your life or something else.

604

You'll never know.

605

But also, just because you've spent 510 years

doing something and doing it to the best of

606

your ability, you're ten years down that path.

607

You have a lot more information about you,

608

about the marketplace, about what's involved

in these things.

609

Then you can look at the one on the left and

one on the right.

610

Do I want to pivot?

Do I want to change?

611

Do I want to move?

There's plenty of time to do all of this.

612

And when you're doing that, you're bringing

your experience and your knowledge of that

613

industry fresh eyes into a new industry or a

new business or a new way of doing things,

614

which gives you extra experience, which you

wouldn't have necessarily had if you'd just

615

gone straight down to the one on the left

anyway.

616

So picking one and going with it, no matter

which route in a forest you pick, you will

617

eventually find the way out, but you'll never

know if you started off on the right one until

618

you actually start off on it.

619

And then you can change directions if you need

620

to.

621

Speaker A: True. Something that popped into my

head when we were talking about how, like, for

622

example, you mentioned those, let's just say

in school you give these talks where there's,

623

like, about ten jobs or roles that didn't

exist when they were in primary school.

624

So I guess, how does it work in terms of

updating your tool, the one that you use so

625

that it's actually up to date?

And maybe it knocks off the ones that aren't

626

necessarily careers anymore, career choices

anymore as well.

627

It adds new ones that many people don't

realize exist.

628

Speaker B: So that's something that we do on a

constant basis.

629

So right now we do it every six months to see

which careers are out there, which are the

630

emerging careers of which are the likely

careers that are going to start coalescing and

631

we add them into our system and then we go

through everything.

632

We haven't done a call yet because we've

really only been around for two or three

633

years.

634

So it'll take this version of our system has

635

only been around for two or three years, and

there isn't anything yet that is dying

636

straight away.

637

But there is a possibility that in the next

638

couple of years, things like truck drivers, if

automation, if self driving cars and trucks

639

come out.

640

And actually the truck driver in America is

641

the biggest employer, the biggest industry

employer in the country.

642

So that's a big, big problem to try and get

all of the truck driver, the existing truck

643

drivers, to retrain and to find other things.

644

But that's, again, what we can do with our

645

system.

646

We can find the elements in those individual

647

drivers that they actually enjoy doing and

their skill set and then help them to retrain.

648

So we constantly will be updating and we've

built our system to be updatable on a weekly

649

basis if we want, but the world doesn't move

quite that quickly, but we do update it on a

650

regular basis.

651

Speaker A: I guess.

652

Reassuring thing that.

653

One of the things you've said that's

reassuring is that even if someone's worried

654

about their role not existing in a few years,

there are other pathways.

655

Correct, that can still satisfy them.

656

All hope is not lost.

657

Speaker B: Basically, if all hope was lost, I

wouldn't be on a mission to make the world a

658

better place with happy people in fulfilled,

rewarding careers.

659

Speaker A: Absolutely. All right.

660

So for someone who's actually at a career

661

crossroads and they're unsure what path to

take, they're distressed about it, frustrated,

662

anxious, whatever we want to call it.

663

What piece of advice would you give to guide

664

that decision?

665

Speaker B: Is this somebody who's been in

careers for a while, or is this somebody

666

coming fresh into their career?

667

Speaker A: I would say they've been in a

career not necessarily for a while.

668

So, yeah, just someone who's got a.

669

Speaker B: Couple of years out of college or

whatever.

670

Speaker A: A couple of years, yeah.

671

A recent ish graduate, whether it be college,

672

whether it be university.

673

Yeah.

674

Speaker B: So a recent graduate.

675

If they're looking at their career now and

676

going, this isn't really what I wanted, it

probably is a case of they might have been

677

given the well meaning advice to study

something, study a subject that they enjoyed,

678

and when they've gone into the work, they've

kind of gone, this isn't what I thought it

679

would be, or this isn't as fun as I thought it

would be.

680

So have a look.

681

You can start by saying, well, these are the

682

things I don't like, but what are the things

that you do like about the career?

683

Is it people?

Is it ideas, is it process, is it structure,

684

is it travel?

Whatever it is about your career, what is it

685

that you enjoy?

And then try and find other things that you

686

feel are missing from the career, what are the

things that you would like to see?

687

And then start doing some research about what

kinds of careers have these elements.

688

Now, obviously you can go to careerfit.com and

get a report, but if you want to do it

689

yourself, this is how you should start going

about it, because you need to have a look at

690

what are the interests that you are looking

for, what are the things that you're looking

691

for in the career?

And if you're at a crossroads and you want to

692

get some free information, I wrote the book

last year, your next career, and it's

693

yournextcareer.com.

694

It's a free download.

695

You don't have to do anything and it's got

everything there to help you step by step.

696

But it also helps you with some interview

skills, techniques and rewriting cvs and

697

things like that.

698

But figuring out what you want to do.

699

80% of people can do 80% of the jobs.

700

From an ability point of view, there are some

701

jobs that are so technical or some jobs that

are so manual that they require certain mixes

702

of people in terms of their abilities.

703

Like footballers, for example, highly

704

technical brain surgeons, highly technical.

705

But 80% of people can do 80% of the jobs.

706

It all comes down to interest and then your

ability.

707

So you could be interested in all kinds of

things and then figuring out which is the one

708

which is going to switch you on the most.

709

That's the path to start looking at.

710

Speaker A: Thanks for sharing all these

nuggets.

711

I mean, even I found it helpful and I'm not

looking for direction at this point.

712

Thank you so much, Stephen, for sharing and

for anyone listening, do check out, certainly

713

the book, the website that Stephen's

mentioned.

714

Thank you, Steve.

715

Speaker B: No, really, for me, it comes down

to happy people in fulfilling, rewarding

716

careers.

717

That's the whole mission of every facet of our

718

business.

719

And life is too short.

720

If you're not happy in your career, you

deserve to be happy in your career.

721

Speaker A: Brilliant.

722

Thank you for joining me on Mary mayor talks.

723

Here's a spiritual wellness tip for you.

724

It's psalm, chapter 37, verses 23 to 24.

725

And it reads, the Lord directs the steps of

the godly.

726

He delights in every detail of their lives.

727

Though they stumble, they will never fall, for

728

the Lord holds them by the hand.

729

Thanks for listening.

730

Do follow and join me again next time on

beyond the smile with MaryLayo.