This week on the pod, Shaunna and Lisa discuss what it means to really acknowledge a history of exclusion. Shaunna, fresh off of a trip to Chareleston South Caolina was impressed with the approach of the city in acknowledging its history of slavery and the oppression of African and African American people. Throughout her trip, she encountered memorials, museums, and other signifiers and signposts related to Charleston’s history of racism. The city made every effort to make clear its past. This is refreshing. Many cities, organizations, and events refuse to publicly acknowledge their role in the oppression of others, and the perpetuation of slavery, in particular. 

Shaunna and Lisa compare Charleston’s acknowledgement and ownership of their history with how endurance sport needs to step up. Endurance sport needs to be more explicit in its discussion of its history of exclusion, particularly of women and people of color. Part of the challenge is the many levels of endurance sport. Bringing them together to collectively acknowledge their roots of exclusion is an easy task to avoid, when responsibility is so diffuse. The recognition of disparities and inequities in endurance sport cannot stay only in the present - at the tips of the tree - it must look backwards to move forwards. Without this open and honest retrospective, we will struggle to sustain an inclusive endurance sport landscape now and in the future. 

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[un]phased Episode 73

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

endurance sport, sport, charleston, people, m&ms, history, thinking, roots, enslaved, federation, tree, south carolina, piece, african americans, interesting, podcast, country, critical race theory, consortium, state

SPEAKERS

Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold, Dr. Lisa Ingarfield

I hear you are traveling Shauna, and this time you were not traveling for a triathlon or a marathon,

right? I got to leave my bike at home, my running shoes. And that's about it. I did throw some resistance bands in my bag just to be guilt free as I was traveling, but that's about it, right? But yeah, but I spent a week in Charleston, South Carolina, which I had never visited before, which is pretty rare that I haven't visited a city entirely. But yeah, I went to Charleston, South Carolina for seven days. And, you know, going during Black History Month, going, where there's so much rich history of Africans and African Americans there, it was just overwhelming. Like, you could just weep the entire time you're there, but also be proud at the same time, it was just, it was a very emotional trip. Definitely an emotional trip. So lots of things to see. I wish I could have stayed for another week to take in more, but it was incredible.

Well, I'm thinking there's probably a lot to learn from your trip. And I bet we can tie it to endurance sports. So do you want to give that a try?

Oh, here we go. Y'all building the plane as we fly quite literally, to Charleston, South Carolina. I'm Dr. Shawna Payne gold and I go by she her her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa englefield. And I go by she her hers.

Welcome to unfazed a podcast to disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the distance. So Lisa, let me tell you, you know, traveling from DC, you can actually get anywhere, you know, you can almost get anywhere on a direct flight, you don't even have to get a exchange anywhere. Like for example, one of the flights that I was looking at from BWI went from Baltimore to Atlanta to Charleston. I'm like, Absolutely not. Right, exactly like the the layover was longer than the flight directly from Reagan to Charleston. But I will say, you know, I so appreciate the complex history of Charleston, I've talked to several friends of mine who were born and raised there. And I just, I'm impressed by how they own the impact of Africans, African Americans, and just the entire institution of slavery over the city. It's just, as soon as you get off the plane, you already see the impact of African Americans there. It's just undeniable. And I wonder what other cities states areas, you know, how would that change the landscape of the country if folks did things similarly, as Charleston?

So for you the difference was that you had a community that kind of unabashedly claimed their hid their history and their involvement in the oppression of African Americans, African people.

Exactly, exactly. They, they claimed it they, there was no machine or concerted effort to erase it, or paint over it, it was very clear in part of everything, from the time I stepped off the plane till the time I got back on. You know, one of the things that was so powerful, even as I'm, you know, trying to go get a bag and go to the rental car area, the first thing that I noticed was a memorial of Mother Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, which many of you may remember, in summer of 2015, the murderer and what I would say the terrorist Dylann, Storm Roof, walked into a Bible study on a Wednesday night, sat there with them in prayer and worship and then murdered nine African Americans, including the pastor of the church. He's also a state, state Congress person. And so given that, that was the first thing you saw when you got off the plane, well, and I wasn't even close enough to read the words, but I could tell by the stained glass window that was kind of created there, installed there, it was the exact replica of the church and so I knew exactly what the sentiments were. And so, you know, the sorrow around that, you know, and understanding the meaning of that church and the history that that church carries and you know, what it means to still see and feel and experience in cold blood racism directly in your face, right. I mean, that that like, as soon as I got off the plane, it was it was pretty heavy.

That is interesting that it would greet people right because you Gotta think that a city is not probably wanting to advertise their kind of history of racist mass murder. Travelers, right, especially if tourism is a big deal, which I imagine it is. And so, you know, I have to give them props for that. Yeah. And I agree with you, Sean, I am thinking about Denver, and I'm thinking about Toronto. And there are certain pieces or places rather, where I think there is acknowledgement at the University of Denver is, is, well, I'm going to get this wrong, I think but a founder or someone connected to the founders involved in the founding of the University of Denver was involved in massacre of Native American indigenous peoples. And as the of Denver had kind of washed over that. And at least in the last five or six years, there has been a much more explicit acknowledgement of the university's history as it relates to that, and committees formed and I don't think they're just for show like, I think there's been some work done. I'm not super connected with it, but but, you know, in terms of that recognition, it's pockets. And what I hear you say, it's the whole city, it was everywhere, everywhere you went.

Yeah, it was, it was truly everywhere. And I was, you know, in that region. So, you know, given that I went all the way from the coast back into the city. So, for example, going out to Sullivan's Island, which is the largest disembark men of enslaved people in the country in the colonies. To me, that was profound that you know, you're going out to the coast, you're going out to see the water. And the very first thing you see, once you get on the grounds of Sullivan's Island, were historical signage, noting where there were mass graves of Africans that either did not make it or they were buried there over time, knowing that you literally could not go anywhere without seeing something in reference to Africans or African Americans. To me, I'm like, this is overwhelming. And part of me is obviously sad, because this is part of my history, as an African American, but then to Part of me was weirdly proud because I'm like, Thank you, let's, you know, not buy into the old, let's just act like it didn't happen. Or let's just kind of whisper over and keep moving on. You know, I'm, I'm thinking to myself, you know, thank you, City of Charleston for your candor. Right? Because, you know, I think that's a great way to have this 180 viewpoint of life and history that, you know, we can't really progress forward unless we truly acknowledge where we've been and what we've done and what we've experienced. I mean, it's great. It was in the land, it was in the food, it was in the, you know, the architecture, it was everywhere. It was truly everywhere.

How do you think South Carolinians, I think is how you say it. People who live in Charleston, Charleston nights, particularly white, Charles tonight's, I just made that up, like react to the explicit nature of this representation of this truth?

Well, you know, that's a great question. I'm not quite sure, because let me tell you what I noticed. So for example, the first full day I was there, I visited what's called Ryan's market, and it has signage over top that says the old slave Mart, which was one of the largest slave markets in the city, there were several. But this was one of the largest ones in the city. And it was the longest, longest active slave market, one of the largest. And what I found really interesting was that, as I'm visiting and looking at the exhibits, and literally, there's exposed, exposed brick on the walls, where you can touch your hands to the brick that was surrounding enslaved people, and I'm looking around and the majority of the people that are walking through this damn museum look like you and don't look like me. Like, oh, this is interesting. So I wonder if you'll you all are native Charlestonians when making a work? Are you named for Charlestonians? Or are you tourists just like I am, you know, and so that was kind of interesting to me. And, you know, as you're leaving, you know, no one's gonna say, you know, we hope you enjoyed this exhibit, you know, as you're leaving, they, you know, they were saying to us, we we hope that you learned more about the experience of this city. Yeah. Which I thought was really profound. And so, you know, to me, it was it was solemn. And it was important. And a lot of the places where I went, there were many more white folks, then people of color that I saw. And, you know, I just hope that it was not held at arm's length of oh, this is just air quote, history. But no, this was an actual experience of actual people. And we're not just here to study wars. We're here to study human beings, you know, in their lives here. So that that the the difference in race, as I visited, some of these locations was very pronounced, very pronounced.

Yeah. And I'm also I'm not familiar with what's happening in South Carolina regarding censorship, you know, our previous conversation. And that would be an interesting juxtaposition, right? If you have this explicit acknowledgement of the history of racism and slavery in the state, while at the same time, school boards across the state are trying to eliminate discussions of racism and slavery, and certain books that reference those issues, right?

Absolutely. Well, that was one of the first things I thought about as I was leaving that I wish I had asked more about, and maybe I needed to coordinate more with K through 12 educators. But that's one thing that I thought, you know, was interesting, what is being taught as part of their state history, US history, local history. And, you know, what's being included? Because so much of that originated there. And so it's, it would be hard to teach state history without teaching the legacy of slavery, like you almost couldn't teach it if you didn't have the legacy of slavery. So I need to connect with some K through 12 folks in South Carolina to get a better handle of that. But you're you're right on it. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, you're saying they couldn't teach it without teaching the history of slavery. I bet there are people that would say they absolutely could

teach it without. Wow, yeah. Yeah. They Yeah, they could, but you know, I'm like, Okay, what would be left? You know, what, what would be left to discuss other than, you know, military wars, you know it. But you're right, because people talk about the civil war all the time and never want to bring up slavery, never wants to bring up race never wants to bring up any of that. So you're right. You're right. You're right.

Yeah, that was about state state rights. Right.

Exactly. There you go. Well, and of course, I mean, you know, I do know that, you know, I'm not quite sure of censorship of books in South Carolina. But what I do know is that, you know, they're having a similar conversation about critical race theory. I do know that already. So you know, that that has been going on, and there's a few bills on the State Floor, I think it's four or five bills on the state floor right now that in some way, reference critical race theory. Now, you and I know critical race theory has nothing to do with K through 12. But that's what they think, obviously. So well,

I know that they believe it. I think it's just a lightning rod. Right. And it gets people riled up. And I think half the time it's an intentional move, but you know, this piece that you're focusing on around the explicit nature of it, I think about that, in the context of sport, I'm thinking about we're in the Olympics right now. You know, and is, is there a sport or a sporting body that is dedicated to uncovering and talking about and actively, you know, illuminating the history of racial and gender discrimination in the sport until to this day, still to this day, right. But at one point in our history across many countries, you know, sport of all kinds was just for white men. Yeah, and,

you know, the, the study of it and acknowledging it, you know, I just, I don't know, of anything that's going on to do that, you know, and so, you know, for us, we come from a higher ed background, and we know what's going on in higher ed, there were, you know, the University of Virginia pulled together a consortium that specifically wanted to study how they should really respond to a couple things, racism in their institutional histories, but also human bondage, you know, human trafficking and working and so forth. And so, you know, given that I'm wondering alongside you, if there could be an endurance sport equivalent of, right, how has gender, gender and race directly been affected or affected or not? endurance sport because we haven't looked at it. I don't think we've looked deeply enough at it. And it's lingering challenges and, you know, what if we had a consortium of Federation's that specifically Look at what was said. And more. So what has not been said or done in regards to gender equity, race equity, LGBT issues? Yeah, I think there's something to it and could be an equivalent there. But that takes us again, you know, facing what we don't necessarily want to face, examining the silences that we don't want to examine. Yeah, it takes work.

Yeah. And I think that there's this inherent under pinning of sport as the the thing, I realized thing is not very articulate, but the thing that brings people together, right, like, you know, everyone can play a sport. Well, we've already talked about that on the podcast, like that is a That's an assumption and a little bit of a problematic statement, because you're not thinking about all those historical contexts or physical barriers or, you know, yeah, areas, but this idea that it's a human right, which I don't disagree with, but that, you know, harking back to our kumbaya episode, right, there's something about sport, that's very IR, which makes me pause about whether such a consortium could even exist, like, would leaders across all types of sport, be motivated? Because of a worry that it would disrupt that feeling or identity for sport, which ultimately would hit that bottom line? Right? I mean, maybe that's,

yeah. Well, you know, and what I think is powerful about what you're saying is that, oh, so it would require ownership, possibly even more so of what has not been done, rather than what injustice has had been done. You know, and, and owning that takes courage, it takes bravery and it's easy to ignore. It's very easy to ignore, you know, it's so easy to ignore the inequities. It's so easy to say, okay, USAT did their survey, that's the breakdown of demographics moving on, it's easy to do, rather than digging up some of the roots of why is it the way it is? And what's the trajectory? And how has that really infiltrated sports. So when I'm thinking about the visual, I'm thinking about Lisa was in that in Ryan's market, there was a map, I couldn't take any pictures in the museum, they didn't allow them. But in there, there was a map showing the regions and and areas, the countries of Africa on the continent of Africa, and their trajectory over to South Carolina and other areas, of course, but it was showing a distinct map of the transatlantic slave trade, and then where they dispersed all across the country. Okay, and my brain has me thinking about endurance sport, it's like, we don't have a map of where we went wrong from the beginning. We don't have a map of where people were excluded, or people were treated badly, even though we could if we took the time to own it and examine it. But an endurance sport, we just haven't done that. It's right. It's been more of let's face what's wrong today, rather than digging up the history and facing What's wrong today, right? Yeah. Hmm. The the problem has roots.

And I'm sure there are like isolated sport historians in academic institutions across the country. I don't imagine there's, there's probably like under 100. Right, right, you know, then it's this silo piece, they're in an academic institution, or how much are they engaging with sport federations, or, you know, the IOC, things like that, in terms of connecting the dots, like this quad consortium of universities, right, because I think that's the other dots aren't being connected. I mean, there's the piece where the individual athlete is not connecting the dots historically as to why there are so few folks of color are so few women, so folks, a few folks with disabilities in sport now, but then also about that larger kind of macro peace around the individual sports and the kind of keepers of history if you will, or not right, dots either, and maybe purposefully, I don't know what the intention is there. But

yeah, that's true. So okay, so I guess the next question, you know, for us to think about moving forward is who, who or what, or which Federation or which sports are willing to own the exclusion of certain groups? And I think you're right, that there's some that are like, Yeah, you know, I know there have been historical problems, but I'm not willing to risk losing what I may have Currently, in order to dig up that history, and so I'd rather make it right from the top rather than from the root. And that's a shame.

Yeah, it is because I don't think you can really fix the top without going to the root. I mean, we talk about that a lot on an individual level, right? That you can't really disrupt the system until you really understand the ways in which you are complicit with the system or you have been a bit lucky piece comes first. And from the individual to the team, or to the community or to the Federation, or to endurance sport, broadly, right. I think it becomes that much easier to gloss over it, because it becomes a little overwhelming and a little different for you. Maybe like the higher up yet. Um, I don't know what that would look like, right? Because, yeah, you know, I guess the IOC is like the big global Olympic Committee, but they have their problems, that's for sure. Yeah, definitely. And then thinking about that in the context of a particular country. Because what you're suggesting, right, is that they're all coming together, rather than triathlon, doing their work, swimming, doing their work, cycling, doing the work track and field doing their work is that it's done collectively. Because those histories and futures are are integrated. Right.

That's right. That's right. They're so interwoven. And so yeah, it's, well, at least it reminds me of because I know, I texted you while I was there. So one of the other sites, while I was in Charleston, or actually not even in Charleston, proper, John's Island, which is kind of on the outskirts there, where it's more resort area, and so forth. On JOHN'S ISLAND, there is the angel oak, which is a huge tree that is owned by the City of Charleston. And I did my research before I got there, I looked at the photos, and so forth. What I found so interesting is that, you know, of course, there's a history to it, it was part of a plantation, the tree, which, to me is very sacred as a black person, because sometimes that tree was used for church gatherings for enslaved people. But also the very same tree was said to have been a place where enslaved people who did not please their masters were hung there. And so it was used for both good and bad amongst the enslaved population there. And the reason why I'm bringing it up is because what you mentioned around roots, is that one of the things I noticed as I was looking at that tree was that they talked about it had signage all around it, don't sit on the roots don't place anything on the roots. Everything is fragile here. And it even had wiring and some wood that was in place to keep this very tall and why tree staple? For me, that's like a huge analogy of what endurance sport could be, you know, we've got all these roots, they're very entangled. They're probably very fragile. Yeah. And at least for Angel, oh, people, I'm imagining arborist who study this and know exactly what they're doing is professionals know what's needed to ensure that that tree does not fall and crumble and die. And what I found that was really interesting, because I took close up pictures I might have to share him with Lindsey, is that there was moss covering this entire tree, which meant that yes, the roots were fragile. But because of the moss, we knew that the tree was still healthy. Because dying trees don't produce moss. Oh, interesting. Okay. And so for me, I'm like, I feel like that's where we need to go with endurance sport, all these different Federation's coming together in a way that we know that our roots are both deep, and the tree is wide when it comes to all the different sports that can be included under this umbrella. But we need to do some examination of these roots here. Because I think, right when you have an understanding of the roots, then you understand how to grow and maintain the livelihood of your sport. If you don't, it's gone die period. Right. And so I just don't feel like we've done enough of that in depth look at endurance sport proper. So maybe Angelo can teach us some lessons on that. But I just don't think there's been a consortium that has done that type of deep work in order to make sure we live. And so then you and I sit here pontificating on the podcast for months and months to come as to is our sport going to stay alive or not?

Yeah, yeah. You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about how contextually different this is going to look in different countries. And here in the US, obviously, you've got the USS Olympic Paralympic Committee. It may have changed its name They may not be confident anymore but they don't have a great represent represent reputation, right particularly around gender given everything that's come forth with sexual harassment and sexual assault. So, you know, the failed us kind of bring all the Federation's together the national governing bodies and say we want to create this opportunity to really collectively understand and express how sport has failed people. I'm not sure how many would have much credibility, right. And that's right. I think an endurance sport is smaller, right? It's not all sport, it's just some sports, depending on I guess how you frame it. So then, you know, there's that piece too, because I think you have your big famous sports, and they're not necessarily going to fall into the endurance category. And so if there's not exposure for some endurance sports, like, you know, ultra running, for example, I mean, it's it's, quote unquote, famous ish, right? But it's not like, really massive in terms of widespread exposure. So then there's also this need to hide, right? Like, yes. USA Swimming, or? Right? Well, I don't know that I put gymnastics and endurance sport, but swimming, definitely marathon swimming, that sort of thing. But also that dynamic that's happening here. And because it's so big, and there's so many, it's very easy to kind of, like, just hide behind the curtain like, you know, the Wizard of Oz.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's easy to ignore. So I guess I would say Luiza, as a, you know, as a conclusion to my trip, even though there were so much more that I saw and experienced while I was there. You know, my big piece, I would say is that, you know, I do think that we may need to come together and examine together without duplicating efforts, examine together what's been the history of endurance sport, and bring those few scholars that have done that work together? And see what we find out what what do we put together? What are the roots of what we're doing? Because I fear that if we don't look at what's going on. Our future is is in peril. Let me put it that way. Yeah, for sure. I would agree. So all right. Are we ready for a hell? Yeah, hell nah.

I think we are.

Hell. Yeah. Hell no.

So well, I feel like I feel like Charleston, South Carolina should get another shout out for a little bit of a hell again, there. And that it formed the basis of our podcast, but I heard on the radio yesterday, that a m&ms as in the chocolate candy.

Not the rapper, rapper. Yeah. Where we have that confusion.

They if you think about the cartoon mascots that they have in the commercials, right, so there's the peanut one and the chocolate one. And they do a whole lot of funny things with that. So m&ms, which I think is Mars, right? The parent company are going to make them more gender neutral. So for instance, the characters that you would read as women have high heels on and long eyelashes and things like that, and so they're going to shift that representation. They the I didn't actually know this, but what they had said on the radio was the two, there's, I think, two main women m&ms, and I guess, in a rivalry together, so it's kind of pulling on some tropes around cattiness and that women don't support women and stuff like that. Right? Like gone down the big Eminem, cartoon character rabbit hole that there probably is. But yeah, all the radio show was doing. So I think that that's really an important piece. And I found an article where someone from so the global Vice President said, we took a deep look at our characters both inside and out, and it have evolved their looks, personalities and backstories to be more representative of the dynamic and progressive world we live in. So you know, it's I feel like that's kind of cool. It's silly, I guess. But I think it's a little something. And we all really about gender from different places. So young kids probably love the m&m cartoons. And so maybe this on how they think about gendered behaviors.

So that's yes, yes, yes.

Oh, hell yeah. For m&ms.

Okay, I need to run out here and get some peanut m&ms or something here in support, because I'm loving that and I'm appreciating that on the heels of no pun intended the heels of Minnie Mouse that we talked about previous measly two in the attire change. I think that's pretty interesting. So yeah, good for y'all m&ms.

Did we have an m&ms feature? Wasn't it a hell Nall one time around?

We'll see that one was Skittles. Oh, that's the rainbow. Yeah. Where they went completely white in the packaging. Yeah, yep. Yep. Actually, I thought about that when you brought up m&ms too. I'm like, Oh, look at this. This is interesting. And I would just interject because we're still in Black History Month. Just one quick hell nah, if you don't mind. The hell nah is around the numerous bomb threats that have been happening to HBCUs historically black colleges and universities. I don't have a complete list but I do know of a few because I do have friends and colleagues and family members who are either alumni or, or professors or administrators there. So there's been at least 16 Spelman College. My training partner is an alum as well as Heather McTeer Tony who has been on our podcast before she is also an alum. This really scares me and saddens me that so many schools, historically black schools where black students choose to study have been targeted. That's ridiculous. Spelman has been targeted. Howard University has been targeted here in Washington, DC. Jackson State has received threats. Apparently, the FBI is has identified some suspects and they're investigating these incidents as hate crimes. We don't know or at least I don't know of any arrests that have been made yet. But I think it's very interesting that these bomb threats started on the very first day of Black History Month in the United States. problematic, targeted shame on you. I identify as a black person, but I did not attend to any historically black colleges and universities for my degrees. However, I'm staunchly in support of students, faculty, staff safety. This is problematic, hell nah. Whoever is doing whatever I I pray that the the field offices of the FBI continue to find what find out what's going on and handle that appropriately. And quickly, because that is just ridiculous foolishness.

Yes, well, again, I would use stronger words than foolishness, which I realize is your your way of suggesting something very stern. And that's yeah, that's F stop.

It is. It is. It's ridiculous. And we know it's targeted. We know it for a number of reasons. But especially due to this time, during the calendar year where we are to celebrate Black excellence in your targeting black excellence, straight up foolishness. So shame on him, shame on you.

And another example of why racism is not dead in this country. And we have to pay attention to it. And we have to pay attention to it in every facet of our lives, even if it's ugly to do so. Right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. We are not post racism at all in this country. Not at all. So thank you for bringing that up. Right. I think we got another one on the books. Lisa. We have built the plane as we flew once again. And thank you for listening to my ramblings of Charleston and I'm hoping to go back. But yeah, if you're going to Charleston anytime soon, just know that the food is so good and so rich, you will only eat once a day. How about that?

Unfazed, a podcast produced by Liv feisty media and supported by the outspoken women in triathlon Summit.

Edited and produced by the fabulous Lindsey Glassford.

Email us at info at unfazed podcast.com and find us on social at try to defy at Dr. Gold speaks or at outspoken women and try. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shauna thanks for listening. Stay unfazed, folks. See you next time.