Podcasting siblings Jamie and Bambi Chambers continue their journey through the ValueTales series of children's books from the 1980s with The Value of Kindness: The Story of Elizabeth Fry. In this episode, they tackle the peculiar portrayal of a pivotal prison reformer, as the book veers off course by focusing on Elizabeth's obsession with her hair and the private thoughts of an imaginary butterly. Listen in as they shed light on Fry's actual accomplishments—including her work in Newgate Prison, her advocacy for female inmates, and her efforts to transform the penal system—while expressing their frustration at the book's failure to depict her as the trailblazing humanitarian she truly was.

Stay connected with us on social media and discover more on our website: http://www.chainsawhistory.com

Welcome to the bonus episode, everybody.

This is Chainsaw History in the Value of series, where my sister and I force you to deal with

the children's history books that our parents made us read when we were little kids.

I am Jamie Chambers, and this is my sister Bambi.

Hello.

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articles on the website and entire additional shows like more of the Value of series like

you're going to hear today, and a new series we've got going on called No Time for Love,

Dr. Jones, where we follow Indiana Jones through his adventures in history.

It's a thing we're doing.

It is a thing.

So today, my sister has brought one of these books that we had when we were kids.

What have you got for us today, Bambi?

I have The Value of Kindness, The Story of Elizabeth Fry.

Yeah, before we started recording, you're like, this is somebody nobody's ever heard

of.

This is somebody's, I mean, probably I, I only know of her through these books.

I vaguely remember her from this book, and I can't say I have heard her name recently.

Yeah, no, it's she's like someone who was very cool and very forgotten about.

So we're gonna learn about Elizabeth Fry.

So let's look at the cover.

I want to see what we got going on here.

We see a dude in a hospital bed, even wearing a collared shirt.

And a nice lady who's wearing a like a covered head.

She's wearing very repressive, like, like Elizabethan looking clothes.

And she's bringing the dude in the in the bed flowers and there's a butterfly behind

her.

Yes.

The butterfly thing.

The butterfly is a fucking thing.

Okay.

Elizabeth Fry.

Let's get into it.

Okay.

And this one was written by a Spencer Johnson, MD, about the founder of the series.

So this one's a little bit more straightforward than the other ones I've read.

It wasn't quite as good a writer as the people he hired.

Well, the last person who did these books, at least for the ones that I've read for the

women.

It's been she was horrible.

It was really, really this one's pretty straightforward.

So I can't really pick on the writing of it too much.

It's more just

title page before the title page, like it says something about her at the very top.

Yes.

It says that this tale is about a person who was very kind Elizabeth Fry.

The story that follows is based on events of her life.

More historical facts of Elizabeth Fry can be found on page 61, the last page.

So we start out again with the words once upon a time, because we know all biographies

should start with once upon a time.

I think I'm convinced that Mr. MD there was convinced that all children's books have to

start with once upon a time.

Yeah, so we're gonna get into it.

Once upon a time, there was a girl named Elizabeth, who lived in a great house in England.

She slept in a soft bed and wore pretty clothes.

She ate fine food and on sunny days she played in a garden with her brothers and sisters.

She should have been happy, but she wasn't.

What's that little bitch's problem?

Sounds like she had it pretty good.

Yeah, it's literally it's like, okay, and you see her playing with some children, but

she looks unhappy.

Dear world, everything's great, but I am an ungrateful brat and I am not happy.

But of course, I'm sure she has a noble reason for being unhappy.

I like being kind to people, she said, because it makes people happy.

I wish I could go out and be kind to those people whom no one else thinks about.

So she's unhappy because she can't be kind enough.

Yeah, people who need it the most.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah.

It's like, I can't be kind to the rich people.

But yeah, fuck you.

I fucking live with.

And again, they kind of it's like she lived in a soft bed.

No, her parents owned a bank and were insanely rich.

Like they had stupid money.

So she's she's a poor little rich girl who's like, No, I must go off and among the squalor

of the people.

Yes.

To make a difference.

Yes.

She wanted to be kind to people.

Not even like they always say kind not even like she wanted to help people or change circumstances.

It's like, we have to throw in the kindness.

She was kind.

I mean, I'm a fan of kindness.

Yep.

So here's where we have some some bullshit.

Cool.

There were days when Elizabeth was sad on one of those days that a butterfly came flitting

in into the garden.

She pretended that the butterfly was talking to her.

Who was it like the butterfly from the last unicorn just like singing random shit?

No, but here you can see the butterfly because it's weird.

That is the result of doing drugs.

Yes, that thing that it bug eyed is definitely the word to use with his butterfly.

It's got big terrifying red eyes with antennae curled up over them.

And he's got these Mickey Mouse gloved hands sticking out to grow.

Well, it's a she and that's why she has the lipstick.

Minnie Mouse gloves.

Okay, and I assume that's just we're getting a close up and that she's actually not the

size of medium sized dog.

Well, I mean, the butterfly sticks with her.

So since it's an imaginary butterfly, it's fine.

So she gets an imaginary butterfly emotional support butterfly for being for being rich.

That'll help her cope with her the trauma of her life of luxury.

And the butterfly asked her why she's sad.

And she's like, I'm sad because I have all this shit and other people don't and I want

to be kind to people.

And because of that, I'm unhappy.

I'm a manifestation of your mental illness.

So what the hell do you want me to do about it?

So hmm, I can see how that might trouble you.

The butterfly said, I just flew over Newgate prison and it troubled me to see the way the

women that was women prisoners have to live.

So now her imaginary friend is giving her some some knowledge about shit she has no

idea about, which is nonsense.

She actually learned about this prison through a family friend because, yeah, because, okay,

so her parents are ungodly rich, but they're also Quakers, which is kind of an important

part of her life that they never once mentioned in this book.

Because they try to keep the specific religious stuff, but yeah, Quakers, they had very, they

had specific thoughts about how you're supposed to do things.

Yeah, and her parents were not in a strict sect of Quakers.

They were more relaxed, like she did wear, they were more mainstream Quakers.

They were rich.

They enjoyed their wealth.

They were fucking nice clothes and yeah, all that shit.

So the butterfly tells her about how dreadful this prison is.

And she was like, I want to go help them.

Oh, cool.

Yep.

And she ran into the house.

And she said, I'll change my clothes.

I don't want to remind them that they don't have pretty clothes.

I'll get rid of this Paris Hilton shit.

I'm gonna dress like a slob.

So she put on a simple gray dress and covered her head in a plain white hat.

I'll go with you, offered the butterfly.

But not if I have to change my clothes.

Elizabeth laughed.

Everyone knew the butterflies couldn't change their clothes.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's we're laughing because it's hilarious.

Um, real quick, I guess I'm fuzzy on it.

What year are we in?

Or what time period are we in?

Because I'm, I don't think they actually say.

Well, they do not say at all in almost any of these books.

It's like the time periods ambiguous.

You have to flip to the back to see their biography.

Yeah.

So Elizabeth Fry was born in 19, in 1780.

Oh, okay.

So I wasn't far off when I said Elizabeth and I was.

Yes.

But we're closer to Victoria than Elizabeth.

For sure.

So she wanted to go and visit the women in this prison.

Her dad was like, hold on there.

That sounds like a fucking dangerous and terrible thing for you to do as a young woman.

You do know that you're rich, right?

Yeah.

And it's like, it's dangerous.

You could get hurt.

Fuck that nonsense.

So he decides that she should go visit people in the hospital, because that is a lot safer.

You were a lot less likely to be violently assaulted visiting people in the hospital.

Which is funny because that's what they put on the cover image is just which is like not

part of this story at all.

Like that's just where it started where her parents were like, No, you can't go visit

a prison.

A random illustration from the middle of the book and just slapped it on the cover.

Because like this, this dude looks way happier.

He's like, I only paid for so many of these drawings and we got to use one of them twice.

Yup, yup.

So Elizabeth goes and she visits people in the hospital.

And she was happy.

I'm being kind.

And they said time passed quickly.

She did get older.

She got married.

And so she had a new last name.

It was Fry.

Because she that fry is her married name, her married name, gurney is her maiden name.

I call that a step up in the last name department.

Not really because she went from having an uber rich family.

And now granted, she wanted to be a more traditional Quaker like she wanted to do the step down

more eliminating of the worldly got things and focus more on the godly things.

Sure.

That's who she was as a person.

And she had a husband who also went along with that.

They like joined a more strict set of Quakers than what she was raised in.

And they said she got married and had a new last name.

And then they they kind of gloss over the fact that you know, it's like through the

course of her life, Elizabeth had 11 fucking children, 11.

So Mr. Fry just could not stay offer could not stay off this woman.

She was constantly pregnant and still and still doing a bunch of other stuff.

Yeah, and like popping out kids for this dude for this dude.

And trust me when I say it's like this woman did nothing but fucking work.

But um, but yeah, she had 11 children and all of them but one lived to adulthood.

Hey, which and you're talking, you know, 18th 19th century.

That's not bad.

No, it's not.

That's actually a really great odds.

Of course, like since her family had money, which always improves your survival.

So much.

Yeah, it's a it's amazing what a little money can do.

So but yeah, it was just kind of an interesting fact of, you know, Biddy had a lot of kids.

So we're glossing over all of the Yeah, we're glossing over some of her kids

and the whole deal.

Oh, although interesting fact her last child was born on the same day as her first grandchild.

So this bitch had fucking kids spread out.

You know,

so apparently when she wasn't working, she was fucking and having babies

considering the age difference in my own children.

I don't have much to say.

Yeah, you spread yours out too.

It's terrible idea.

I have one kid turning 30 this year and another turning eight.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There you go.

Hmm.

Yeah.

And how old your granddaughter?

She's three.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You didn't.

You didn't think that through.

But it's fine.

I'm old.

You're old.

Terrible decision.

But Elizabeth Fry's even older and yeah, older and deader and apparently had even more children

than you did.

Yeah.

So the butterfly she decides that she is finally going to fucking she's an adult woman and

she's going to visit this fucking present.

This butterfly will not leave me alone about it.

And it's the butterfly was like,

this is not the butterflies jam.

The butterfly.

Okay, I'm gonna read you this passage.

Be careful, warn the butterfly.

Some of these women were bad people even before they went to prison.

But it is so terrible inside the prison that now most of them have become even meaner.

The women are cruel to one another.

They might even be cruel to you.

So apparently this this butterfly is fucking has some wisdom, the butterflies and knowledge

and apparently like, look, I've been watching Orange is the New Black and Wentworth and

these ladies prisons are not to be fucked around with.

Mm hmm.

And so she went in the prison and at first she wasn't afraid.

But then she actually got in there.

And she says, quote, it's frightful.

She cried.

It's so filthy.

And the air is so bad.

I can hardly breathe.

What a terrible way for anyone to live.

And then we see an illustration of cave people living in just filth and squalor with their

hair grown over their eyes and just covered in sores and like shit.

Yeah.

It's terrible.

It is terrible.

And apparently these prisoners are supposed to be ladies.

These are supposed to be ladies.

And again, they don't really get again, you only see four women in this this room.

But in actuality, it was like 500 women in a room with their children.

And a lot of these and because there had death sentences for even like petty theft.

So the conditions of these places were really bad.

This is when there was still slavery.

So but yeah, she was an abolitionist.

She did not believe in slavery.

And she believed in like basic human rights.

Just she was a humanitarian.

Which is good because if memory serves, slavery was abolished in England in the early 1800s.

Yes.

Like 1810 or something.

Yeah.

But there were still colonies.

Yeah.

And they were still shipping people off to like fucking Australia and like giving them

literally it was like with nothing.

They just dropped them off on a shore and was like, adios, have fun.

Hope you don't die.

Which Australia liked to kill people.

It's a pretty harsh environment in a lot of situations.

So but they don't talk about that at all.

They're only going to focus on this tiny itsy bitsy portion of her life.

So these guys are living in squalor.

And again, they don't describe it but the horrificness inside these prisons, it was

literally like no beds, no bathrooms, they had they were shitting in buckets and had

straw.

Yeah, I mean, and these were like packed, you can only imagine with malnourished and

the treatment they got from the people around the place.

Yeah.

And again, and it's like they don't describe it here.

But the women had to make their own food, and they weren't given a lot of supplies.

It was really, really kind of horrific, you're just unimaginable situations locked in a crowded

room.

Yeah.

And these are women and children who probably didn't do much more than just have debt.

So because debtors prison was a thing, because it was a thing.

But this was, I guess more of a I want to say more of a high security.

I don't I don't really know I didn't.

I am a fraud because I did not look up fucking Newgate prison specifically.

But they did describe it on her Wikipedia page that it was really fucking bad.

So these bitches are fighting and Elizabeth cries for them to stop quote, the women did

stop fighting.

They stopped and they stared at Elizabeth Fry.

Here's a fine lady come to make fun of us said one let's tear her pretty clothes said

another.

We can block her pretty eyes said a third.

But I don't come to make fun of you said Elizabeth quickly.

I want to help you.

Well, that's awfully kind.

It is awfully kind.

And at first they didn't believe her and they were gonna beat her ass and they wanted to

tear clothes but then they were like, well, she doesn't even really have nice clothes

on.

She's just cleaner than us.

She slummed it up to him.

Yeah, I mean, she's like dressed like a Quaker bitch.

So they don't know what to do with her and they kind of start closing in on her to the

point where the prison guards are like, Yeah, we're gonna kill her.

We better get her out of there.

And Elizabeth was like, No, no, no, I'll just stand still, and they won't hurt me.

And so she stood real still.

The fucking guards are there to shoot them.

So everyone's kind of frozen.

And she said, quote, if I can only make them believe that I'm here to be kind to them,

said Elizabeth.

And so she stood there and then she picked up a sick child used as a human shield.

Mm hmm.

And so she picked up the child in her arms and literally was like, you can't attack me

while I'm holding one of your babies.

But instead, she said, quote, friends, she said to the prisoners, many of you are mothers.

I too am a mother.

I am distressed for your children.

Is there not something we can do for these innocent little ones?

Do you want to make them grow up to become real prisoners themselves?

Are they going to learn to be thieves and worse?

Yeah, you guys don't want your your kids to be thieves and hookers.

And they were like, Well, what the fuck are we supposed to do about it?

They'll become the criminal element.

So quote, suddenly the women stopped shouting and threatening.

They began to cry soft, happy tears.

She is kind, they said.

She did come to help us.

So the women gave her a chair and she started talking to them and then they started bringing

her children and basically what happened after deciding not to shank her, that she wanted

to open up a school for these young, innocent kids that are just imprisoned with their mom.

Prison children.

Prison children.

Yeah.

And again, they do not get into this.

But one of the first things that she does is get prison separation, because men and

women in prison weren't necessarily separated and women were getting assaulted all over

the place.

Imagine that.

Yeah.

And she also made it where like the guards themselves a lot of times had to be women.

That they couldn't just be around nothing but men.

Unattended with men.

Unattended with men who would molest them.

And they have no recourse or anything they can do shit.

Exactly.

So that was one of the first reforms that they did not talk about.

Imagine jail guards sexually assaulting inmates.

Inmates.

I've never heard of that before in our local fucking sheriff's office.

Yeah.

Well, it was even worse because they had inmates in there with female inmates.

Why not just throw everybody together?

What's the worst that could happen?

Because apparently, I mean, and again, they didn't have, they didn't really see these

people as human beings anymore.

We don't do great at that now in America, much less back then in the early 19th century.

In jolly old England.

But so Elizabeth starts a school in the prison for these kids.

And so, quote, Elizabeth started a school for the children of women prisoners at Newgate.

She taught them reading, spelling and sewing.

Most of the mothers couldn't read or spell.

They would peep through the door of the school room and think, I wish we could go to school

too.

So you see her.

She's got her little prison classroom for these little vagabond prison children.

But you can see it's not as dirty.

Clean things up.

And she had a picture of a cat, C-A-T.

So she's teaching these kids.

And so the women come to her.

And they're like, Hey, yo, can you teach us how to do shit too?

We also would like to read and shit.

And she was like, I don't know if I can do that, but I can try.

It's like, I can ask.

But I can't promise anything because, you know, she had to ask to even set up the school

for the kids.

And they were like, Well, we don't think that that's valuable.

And she was like, Well, I think you're wrong.

They're like Gaston from Beauty and the Beast, we don't want women reading, they might get

started getting ideas and thinking.

Well apparently, that was not how this went.

So quote, Elizabeth Fry invited the prison authorities to her home.

And again, her home's pretty big.

It's pretty nice.

She's a pretty influential well to do lady.

So it's not like with an arm just anyone was asking small army of children to Yes, at her

command.

Quote, if we could make the prison a nicer place, she said.

And if we could teach the women something useful, they might live better lives once

they're out of prison.

It won't work said the authorities.

However, we will let you try just to show you that you are wrong.

To be kind to these prisoners ha ha ha men know everything.

So they gave her permission.

So she started opening up a school for the women.

And she says, quote, when you can read and write, she told them, you will be more likely

to succeed and not return to prison.

And then we also have quote, I wish that I could read and write thought the butterfly.

But it couldn't butterflies simply do not read and write.

It's really bad.

It's really, really bad.

And I even glossed over the story of how the butterfly explained to her that it's chrysalis

was like a prison.

Which was a little bit horrifying for me as someone who like did not want to think about

like the butterfly prison of its own mind, let me tell you about the time I turned my

body inside out and I painfully morphed into something else.

Yeah, well, that's relevant to the story of Elizabeth Fry.

Yeah, it was kind of horrific.

So the butterfly upsets me.

I'm trying not to think about it too much while also having to Yeah, shut the fuck up

butterfly.

You're right.

You can't read can't read you stupid fucking butterfly.

And so she did not teach the butterfly how to knit.

But she did teach the women so she taught them sewing and knitting and reading and writing.

And so did she teach them how to save a butterfly by sticking a pin through its head and I don't

know but corkboard I do find it very funny that she's holding up a pair of scissors next

Right next to the butterfly.

I'll fucking clip your wings you bitch.

It's like how do you like crawling again?

How would you like to go back to being a caterpillar?

And so she started teaching the women how to make quilts and they said they were taught

sewing.

So they have a quilting bee.

And they have a little quilting and look all the women look they're not raggedy.

Yeah, they look like actual human beings that brush their hair and yeah, they look like

women again.

They're not little captain caveman people.

Quote, I'll take your quilts and sell them for you said Elizabeth.

Then I'll give you the money and you can buy little things for yourself.

You are very kind person Elizabeth Fry the prisoner said thank you.

So Elizabeth sold their quilts and they got a little bit of money and they bought little

things at the prison store so they could have personal items.

And you know, food and shit which they weren't really getting much of before.

So their can their conditions improve dramatically.

Awesome.

Uh huh.

Quote, then one day the authorities came around to see how things were going in the prison.

What's happened?

They cried.

Look over there.

How clean everything is.

And look at those women.

They're bright and happy and pretty.

They're not suffering nearly enough.

We must put a stop to this instantly.

The women had cleaned the prison up you see, and they had cleaned themselves up.

The prison looks like a busy little shop or a friendly home.

The women were not fighting.

In fact, they were helping each other.

So you see these baffled stupid men.

What?

How could we have possibly have been wrong about anything ever?

We are men with penises.

My mustache says there's something up.

But yeah, they had to concede that her prison reform was useful and helpful and was working.

So quote, the prison officials were so impressed that they told the people of the village about

the change in the prison.

Look at it, they said.

See how nice it is now.

It's much better place since good kind Elizabeth Fry came here to help the prisoners.

Fuck yeah.

And so now the prison's all shiny.

And now it's a castle.

And now it's a castle instead of a prison, which it was always a castle.

Huzzah.

Well, it is England.

They have castles laying around.

Yeah.

So they turn a lot of them into prisons.

So that probably tracks no a single mention of all the lesbian hookups that happen in

the women's prison, whatever, you know, after being abused by all those men.

Again, this is not orange is the new black.

So the men called a meeting, quote, we have men prisoners at Newgate too, said one of

the officials.

What if we start treating them?

Perhaps we could help them the way you have helped the women.

And she says, you should do that.

You should totally do that.

I don't need to do that.

But you should do that.

I'm not going into the men's prison.

She does not go into the men's prison, although she did write.

She helped draft laws.

She advocated for them.

She's like advocated for all of them.

However, I don't think she personally went into the men's because that wouldn't have

ended well that yeah, I was like, you should do that.

You guys got beaten to death in the lady prison.

Yeah.

What would have happened to her in the dude prison in the dude prison?

And again, not that they ever would have probably let her in in the first place.

Well, I think there was it was just a free for all.

She was the one who separated them and then was like, yeah, you deal with those guys,

the rapists and the murderers.

I'll go over here with these poor fucking battered women.

We should try this innovative treat people like human beings.

So they did.

They opened schools and the prisoners knew someone cared about them.

And they learned useful shit to become reformed people and not just, you know, in worse situations

than they were in before.

So the prison industrial complex was fixed completely and we've never had any problems

ever since.

Hooray.

No, that's not what happened.

I could have sworn I saw Jon Stewart talking about this on TV last week.

Yeah.

And again, I don't know what the prison situation in England is.

I mean, I'm gonna go with it's probably not great.

However, but you know, we don't know a whole lot about it.

We inherited our legal system from England and like back in the day, our prisons sucked

just as bad.

So quote soon Elizabeth Fry was getting letters from all over Great Britain.

She got so many letters that her daughters had to help her with her mail.

Luckily, she had lots of those.

She had tons of those.

Mm hmm.

Like six of them.

See, she knew all that sex with her husband was gonna come in handy one day.

Yep.

So now she has child labor, and they help her.

And she and one one day, here's a special one mother cried one of the girls.

It has a red seal on it.

Whom do you think it could be from gas?

Elizabeth Fry was very happy when she opened the letter.

It was an invitation to come speak at the House of Commons.

Oh, shit.

She's going to Parliament.

Yeah.

And she was the first it was the first time a woman other than the queen had been asked

to speak for the government to speak to the government.

Wow.

And so the butterfly says, Can I come with you?

And she was like, of course you can imaginary butterfly.

How could I possibly do anything without you?

Oh, she's fucking criminally insane.

Who's going to give me nightmare fuel with your stories of metamorphosizing?

Yep.

Although here you can you can see the picture.

All right.

So yeah, you see her dressed up in her school marm outfit giving a talk to all the powdered

wig dudes in the House of Commons.

Yep.

But she is like wearing like pink.

I hope she had to witness a screaming match and a fistfight,

which still would have been completely off color because she was like, she was a toned

down way.

She dressed up like the Quaker Oats dude.

Mm hmm.

Quote.

The answer is very simple.

She told the distinguished men, prison should be a place of reform, places where people

who have been bad can learn how to be good.

You will never teach a person to be good by being bad to them by beating or starving or

humiliating them.

She went on.

The answer is to be kind to help people to care about making them happier.

When people are happy, they will be good.

She's right.

You know, so the members of the House of Commons.

I'm so proud of you, Elizabeth, whispered the butterfly, because apparently she didn't

have a real life husband or family or people which is completely our children are busy

working in her letter writing mill.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, she actually was like a ridiculously busy person.

I mean, it sounds like it.

I mean, like impressed enough people to get invited to talk to parliament at this stage.

Yes.

And in literally, she's like, yeah, how about you know, we can reduce crime by improving

the quality of people's lives.

It's this weird, weird, foreign concept that nobody's ever occurred.

So quote after that Elizabeth was invited to go to the continent of Europe and talk

to the kings and queens and heads of state.

They all wanted to know how to make their prisons better.

She rode in a carriage to see them.

Why they added that why they needed this tiny little paragraph paragraph just giant illustration

just to have a carriage speeding off with a team of horses.

Yeah, literally like this entire fucking thing was so unnecessary.

It's hilarious.

Yeah, the writing is bad.

Not quite as bad as the last one, but it's it's pretty bad.

I don't know the Christopher Columbus one.

Maybe have maybe takes the cake for me so far.

Yeah, well,

that's the one where we got to find out about the private thoughts of an imaginary character

that he didn't even share with anyone.

It was, you know, the whole the whole thing about Christopher Columbus was nothing but

fucking propaganda and bullshit.

This one is actually like, let's talk about this woman that you probably have never heard

of and then just give this little, little highlight reel with a little crazy person

talking to a butterfly.

I mean, they spent more time on her about like, just her being a child than they did

on any of her good works.

So they show we're talking to kings and queens, who are all just hanging out together.

Yeah, they just happen to be hanging out together, which is not how any of us take our thrones

and just like set it all up.

Yeah.

And you got like, and we got all kinds of like Burger King Kings Club.

Yeah.

And I mean, mm hmm.

And they kind of Yeah, they don't even explain who the kings are king queens are at this

point.

They just show dude in a turban and dude in a crown and some sort of Eastern like a Russian

looking dude.

Yep.

It's like they have the Queen of England, the Tsar of Russia.

I don't even know who the fuck that's supposed to be.

And then the king of Persia.

Yes.

And I only know that because I looked at her actual like,

who did she talk to?

Yup.

Okay.

So she talked to them and so she started prison reform and not only her own own country but

several countries everywhere.

But I don't see the king of America there.

The king of America was not there.

She did not talk to America.

America didn't give a fuck about prison reform.

Still don't.

I was gonna say that that tracks Elizabeth Fry maybe could have jumped across the pond

and Yeah, but she didn't.

I mean, it's hard to it's hard her fault.

It's hard to get on a boat for months.

When you're giving birth to 11 children.

I am busy constantly being pregnant.

Yeah.

I mean, she was a grandmother.

See sickness and pregnancy probably not a great combination.

Yeah.

So she did not hop across the pond.

However, she did start prison reform.

So we're going to end the book by saying quote, perhaps like Elizabeth Fry, you might think

about how good you feel when you are kind.

Of course, you may decide to bring kindness in your own life in very different way indeed.

But whatever you decide to do, let's hope it is something that will make you a happier

person.

Just like our kind friend, Elizabeth Fry.

So everybody go out and reform your local prisons and jails.

I mean, now it's I mean, she sounds like a pretty admirable person.

I don't know anything about her other than like I said, I remember.

I remember this one vaguely from when we were kids, but I don't I don't know that her

names popped up in my the rest of my life.

Yup.

And so here we go.

I'm going to read directly from her Wikipedia page now.

Sure.

She supported efforts by Queen Victoria, the emperors Alexander the first Nicholas the

first of Russia and was a correspondence of both wives to the Emperor's mother and commemoration

of her efforts.

She was depicted by the Bank of England on five pound notes in circulation between 2002

and 2016.

Damn.

So she was literally there.

She was on there.

And she was there fucking money for a minute.

She was that influential five at the five pounder that's that's the Abe Lincoln spot

in America.

Yep.

So for good for you, Elizabeth Fry and yep, although funny enough, they she was taken

off of the note in 2016 to be replaced with Winston Churchill.

Oh, yes.

Maybe a good old Winston, which now makes me a little sad.

But you know, and since she was a Quaker Yeah, she but yeah, so she was a Quaker.

She was fucking so they got somebody 100% drunker than Elizabeth Fry to be the new five

pound 150% Winston Churchill was one of the books value

details books at sitting that I have Oh, do you have you have Winston Churchill Winston

Churchill in this series, which does not talk about his his raging alcoholism even a little

bit.

Probably not.

And again, I have I have Eleanor Roosevelt in mind, but that's your like, I I sometimes

make it my happy place.

So I'll do it eventually, but I want to do it in correspondence with we won't add this

in.

But yeah, but this this book definitely is a sad and timely reminder that our prison

system 100% sucks.

Like I said, I watched the most recent episode of the problem with Jon Stewart on Apple TV

Plus, where he literally did a whole episode on the prison industrial complex and desperate

need for change that we need things.

Yeah, well, apparently she did not hop across the pond because they actually know because

of her half prison reform and not only her own country but several others.

Well nicely done Elizabeth Fry.

But yeah, she started with Newgate prison and kind of moved on from there.

And like, again, her family was stupid rich.

At one point, her husband, like, became bankrupt.

And it still didn't matter because they were still stupidly rich.

It's fine.

But yeah, it's like, so she's came from a family of Quaker bankers and then married

into a different family of Quaker bakers bankers.

So they were all about nothing but money and oats

money, but she's still focused on going into prison and help.

Yeah, she and she actually like, had a more we've but we've had these tone down life,

but we've had those similar stories of these people who are privileged who do decide to

to help people even at the lesson like people in prison, especially back in these days.

Holy shit.

Yeah, I mean, the worst conditions you can have did was just take one look at it.

Go back to her house and like, fucking round up clothes and shit, just to bring before

she did anything.

It's like she tried she brought these people fucking

dirty women in rags.

Yes.

Yeah.

And they were like, and she was like, Oh, hell no, you need to get these men out of

here.

Yeah, so that can't be good.

That can't be good.

So she was really for me to limit all the sexual assault to only the prison guards.

Yup.

Yeah.

And she even tried to limit that by having, like women supervisors, right now, they're,

they're always ways to mitigate these situations.

It's funny how they don't seem to stick in some institutions.

So yeah, it goes on and it talks about how she influenced different acts of Parliament.

And how the first one like, didn't really do shit.

And she was really mad about it.

Yeah, the frustration of trying to change.

Yeah.

She had to like, do it again.

Bypassing another prison act.

Don't make me pass another prison act.

She changed conditions on penile transport.

Like it was a big thing.

And again, she had like an army of women who helped her at this point, you said, wait,

sorry, I'm immature.

You're a child, Jamie.

But yeah, so she worked on reform for these prisoners who were just being transported

and fucking dumped.

She was like, no, you actually have to like, fucking switch this up.

Yeah, they were the prisoners were taken away in open carts.

So they were humiliated and thrown.

Yeah, they were they got the yeah, they the pelting with rotten food treatment and all

that kind of thing.

That shit.

So she actually was the one who was like, No, you need to put walls up.

These people don't need to be humiliated for a final time.

Right.

So she actually was the one who put a stop to that shit.

At least for women, because a lot of the the shit that she could implement, a lot of it

was just for women, although some of the whitening prison reform was for the men, but then later

on there.

Well, some of this stuff that works could be just as easily work over on the other side

of the wall.

Sure.

So yeah.

So she worked on widening prison reform.

She set up welfare and homeless establishments and shelters.

Elizabeth quote, Elizabeth also helped the homeless establishing nightly shelters in

London after seeing a body of a young boy in winter in 1819 through 1820.

So she's like, Yeah, kids maybe shouldn't freeze to death and yeah, you know, it's like,

just because you're poor doesn't mean you should freeze to death and die.

That's not the that's not the the way of Victorian England.

Nope.

In 1840.

She opened up a training school for nurses.

And her program inspired Florence Nightingale.

There you go.

Another one of the women on my my list, I'm sure we will get to her.

We will get to Florence Nightingale eventually.

I love Florence Nightingale.

So I guess you know, Elizabeth Fry gets the official Chainsaw History thumbs up as yeah,

not shitty person as a not shitty person who actually tried to make the world a better

place and knowing that she started as a as a poor little rich girl makes it even better

that she could have just lived a life of luxury and privilege privilege and never thought

about anybody else and she didn't she and said, directed her energies to those people

who need it and

and yeah, and pretty much she didn't take a life of poverty by any means, but she

but she was generous and kind to other people.

So there you go.

And yeah, she was.

And she was again, she How did they describe because they actually described that in this

book, I think they added a lot of weird shit in her biography.

Well, those I figured out those last page biographies are often just as full as shit

is the the children's book stuff.

Yeah, like the Columbus one was utter nonsense.

They sum up some stuff and like they added some stuff about her husband didn't always

approve of her activities, but he promised not to not to interfere.

And it's like, what the fuck you got?

You made that up.

You got I don't think I, again, I did not read that on her Wikipedia page.

So I don't know where that came from.

I don't know where that came from, or even why they would fucking at it for any reason.

It doesn't even make sense.

But what they called her was a plain Quaker.

She didn't she wore the actual traditional Quaker garb.

Yeah, like her parents were like rich Quakers.

She was like, No, I want to be I'm a I'm a fundamentalist.

Mm hmm.

Got it.

She dressed in plain clothes and gave up all of her personal adornments.

All right, well, listeners, give up all of your fancy clothes and personal adornments

and you know, go help out somewhere to someone well, or you could just take it as hey, let's

just be kinder to one another and make the world a better place and fight for prison

reform and fight for prison reform because that shit's important.

We definitely need it.

You know, to this side, if you want to hear the Jon Stewart thing, go on YouTube and look

for that clip.

He really good interviews and talks about it.

So once again, if you are listening to us now, you can go to Chainsaw history.com to

hear even more, all of our regular episodes, all of our full back catalogue bonus episodes

and articles are available for our subscribers.

And we hope you'll check us out.

If you are into Dungeons and Dragons, you can go to the website backstab.fun to find

some of the latest stuff I did.

For example, I got into Irish folklore and made a more accurate version of the Banshee

than is presented in the Monster Manual, which was fun.

And I did a video that has Sean Connery singing a love song.

You can find it on my website backstab.com.

So I think that's pretty much it for us.

Okay, yeah.

A special thanks to our sound engineer Kevin here at Raven sound studio.

Thanks Kevin.

And the reason we don't sound like we did in season one, and we'll see on the flip side

of this.

Bye.