In this episode of Beyond the Surface, Katrina shares her journey of religious trauma and abuse amid the chaos of the COVID-19 pandemic, recounting how American missionaries’ abrupt departure left her feeling abandoned in Africa. She describes relocating to the U.S. with her family, only to face academic sabotage, familial tensions, and a struggle for independence. Katrina’s determination to pursue higher education and a career in psychology, despite parental disapproval and health challenges, highlights her resilience and search for identity. As she breaks free from toxic control, Katrina finds hope through unexpected community support and reshapes her faith on her own terms, embracing the compassion of Jesus beyond traditional confines.

More About Katrina

Speaker and life coach that specialises in religious abuse, academic sabotage, and good girl syndrome, Katrina is currently living her best life in her renovated garage, feverishly writing away and creating motivational speeches! She hopes her ongoing projects will help others find the same peace she has found.

Katrina is a teacher to toddlers by day, an overachieving writer by night, and a coffee-drinking socialiser on the weekends! As a never-ending psychology enthusiast, Katrina is not ashamed to seek trauma-informed therapy every week!

Katrina loves making new connections with churches and colleges through her speaking career and collaborating with other artists who are trying to create beauty out of pain. Katrina's biggest focus is to speak around the US and eventually around the world, including Africa, where she was orphaned, adopted, and raised as a missionary for 20 years.

Connect With Us

• Find out more about Katrina on her website - https://www.speakwithkatrina.online/
• You can also connect via Facebook or Instagram

• You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was, and always will be, aboriginal land.

00:58

Hey there, and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. Welcome back to Beyond the Surface and part two of my chat with Katrina. Let's pick up where we left off and enjoy.

01:48 - Katrina (Guest)

Katrina. Let's pick up where we left off and enjoy. I tell you, missionaries were going crazy. Missionary American schools were shutting down and sending all of the American missionaries back to the US, back to their homes. And I remember, like some of our missionary friends um, yeah, the friend that was 16 and graduating before me her parents got on a plane just to make sure that they would get to America so they could send their daughter to college, even though she hadn't graduated yet. And I remember being flooded with jealousy. To be honest, I was like and she was adopted. And I was like why is it that that adopted girl gets to go back to America to get into college even though she hasn't even graduated yet? But I'm fighting, just simply get through high school.

02:37

03:31

And so I got stuck in Africa for another eight weeks. And then I say that the Lord opened this radical door for my family to get on a COVID-19 evacuation airplane within 24 hours of notice. So we packed suitcases, left our fish and our dogs and our whole house behind. We had to take two taxis because there was a rule about how many people could be in a car at a time, and we got to the airport and never looked back and my parents were planning on only being in America I don't know maybe a couple months and then going back to Africa. They want to die in Africa. They say Africa is their home.

04:12

But I, I was getting ready to start this crazy adventure in the US, but because no one knows what this COVID thing is, I was like, well, I don't know the US. My parents are here with me, they have free housing that a church provided us, so I might as well just stay with them and get through high school as soon as I possibly can, thinking I would graduate in like a month and so thinking, you know, we're in a new country, we have new community and we have this brand new house. That must mean that all the abuse will end. It didn't, and so we lived in this beautiful cabin that was sitting on a pond, and this pond was full of moccasin snakes. And I cracked this joke that Americans are like you're from Africa. Oh my goodness, do you see snakes every day? And I'm no.

05:03 - Sam (Host)

But when I got to america the first, the australians that say the snakes all the time so true, oh, my word, um.

05:16 - Katrina (Guest)

And so, like, first thing in the morning, we look out the window and there's just the snake slithering past our window. Um, and we were in honeymoon phase. This church would bring us meals every window. And we were in honeymoon phase, this church would bring us meals every other day while we were in lockdown and I ended up. I remember freaking out because the Wi-Fi wasn't set up in the cabin and the only way I could get my online classes done was if I had Wi-Fi. And so I remember just panicking and my parents getting angry. But it was because my identity was wrapped in my schoolwork and I had to be doing schoolwork at all times.

05:51

And I remember one night we were having dinner on the veranda and my parents decided to have an extended date night, and so my sister and I are brushing our teeth getting ready for bed and, ironically, we were talking about do you realize, like my little, my little sibling, was going. Do you notice how dad keeps talking to us with like a heightened level of authority and if I tell you to do something, you will do it? And I was like, yeah, I noticed it, and it's really difficult and little you know, behold, they come in a few minutes later. It's like eight o'clock at night, like eight o'clock at night, and he goes Katrina, go take care of my dishes. And there's this really really long pause. And then he goes, please, and I go, okay, because you said please, and my dad turns around and yells at me you will not take care of my dishes. Because I said, please, you will take care of my dishes, because I told you to and because I am the authority in this household. And I stood my ground and I said, no, dad, I take care of your dishes because we're in relationship and because I love you. And he went no, you don't take care of my dishes.

07:01

Because of that, like it is biblical, biblical and he tried to bring out some sort of scripture about children taking care of their parents dishes. And the one that really hit was he goes. Why america is struggling so much right now is because of the disrespect that you just showed me, and what he was referring to right at that moment was the George Floyd shooting and all of these. Like you could not have brought up a worse analogy. Like you're talking to your African adopted daughter, I remember I was kneeling down next to the fridge, crying, putting his things away in the fridge and my mom and my dad are yelling at me, simply because I confirmed I take care of your dishes, because you asked in a nice way instead of demanding it, and because we're in a relationship, and it was just such an interesting example of he didn't see it as relationship. He saw it as like a religious authoritative thing, yeah, duty, yeah.

08:11

And so I remember that night my little sister had to sleep in my room and hold my hand and I couldn't sleep all night just pacing back and forth. I had to have a fan in my face because I was struggling to breathe, and any time that abusive things like that would happen I would push a little harder because I thought my identity was in my schooling. My thought process was you can get out of this abuse if you graduate. So I stayed for several months. We had to move houses again and then, lo and behold, in this glorious new house that we moved into which is a shock for missionaries because we're so used to living in tiny little places or in villages and this time we got to live in this brand new house in this glorious neighborhood where you know you might take a 20 minute walk, but we would take an hour walk because we were just staring at all the humongous houses with three-story housing and we were like you could adopt 60 kids and have them live in that house. Like the amount of privilege in America shocks me, yeah. And yet, like we crack jokes, us missionaries were like did you hear those people at the store complaining about the pothole on 85? Like, what is that about? Like we have the most humongous potholes on every street in Africa, yet you're just you're complaining about one tiny pothole on road 85. Like, the privilege in America shocks me still today. And I've been here for like four years.

09:44

And so I ended up getting down to two weeks before I graduated. I just knew that I could do it. No one gave me permission, no one told me this is when you're graduating. I said I can do this. Come on, let's crank out all of these assignments.

10:00

My dad told my mom, I am going to tell Katrina to bake something to say thank you to the church for this house. And my mom said well, you know, katrina is trying to graduate in just a couple of days. And my dad's response was if I tell her to bake, she will bake. And so I'm taking deep breaths and I'm like what did my therapist tell me to do? What did my mentor tell me to do? So he comes up and he declares I need you to go to the kitchen and bake. And I said, dad, I'm so sorry, but I've got 14 days until I graduate.

10:33

Like a seven year journey with an unknown rare eye disease. Like seven years, and he goes. Did an authority tell you that you needed to graduate in 14 days? And I'm like no, and he goes. Well, if an authority didn't tell you to, then you don't need to. You can graduate in three years, in five years, it doesn't matter, I need you to go to the kitchen and bake. So again, you're not a human, you're not a daughter, you are a spiritual robot that must be pleasing at all times.

11:08 - Sam (Host)

Okay, so again, so many questions and I'm trying to balance, like, what I want to ask, so that, like I'm conscious because like of time was like um of time, but uh, my first, the first thing that I want to ask is obviously, like, at this point, you've escaped the, the life you were living in africa, but you have not yet escaped the family, right? So? So I mean, I have another question that I want to follow up on that. But like, how did you get out of the family abuse that you were like that environment, how did you get out of that?

11:56 - Katrina (Guest)

Yeah, okay, yeah. So um said no to my dad, graduated in two weeks, which, by the way, that is the pinnacle of the academic abuse. If anyone were to argue, no, it's not academic sabotage, that is what proves it is the fact that he thought, no, you don't have permission to graduate because an authority hasn't blessed you, aka me. And then I graduated 14 days later. Go up to my mom, go, I need a diploma and transcript. Another pinnacle, uh, moment. That just points to the academic sabotage. Do not rush me. Seven years, all based on katrina being the good girl that gets through school, but the academic provider will not give her a diploma or transcript. Bottom line to keep the story running, I had to wait six months to get a transcript and diploma, which means you are still under the control and the authority. You can't get a job without a diploma, and so I was still stuck. And you don't need a car if you don't even have a job, and so you're still stuck. So I waited for six months and after three months of waiting, I finally go up to them again and I'm like I, like, please, I need an update. And, by the way, when my, when my mom said Do not rush me. I fell back into the pattern and I said Well, how is this going to work? Oh yeah, do what you were trained to do, mom. I will take your role and I will cook and clean. Will you get me what I need? And then I was silent like the good girl. So good girl syndrome is based on sit, stay, submit, serve and be silent. And so that's what I did.

13:41

And then they broke the news after three months that the Christian online high school would not give me a diploma because my parents did not get the paperwork in when I asked them to two years ago, and now that I was 21 years old, they would not work with us anymore. And so now I was not waiting on the online Christian amazing high school. I was waiting on my academic abusive providers to provide me what they should have provided me two years before. And so I was stuck at home for another six months, and that is when the chronic pain attacked my body. I literally could not stand and I was, yeah, in bed, dying. Um really thought I wasn't gonna make it. And then a younger family member of mine brought up that she was starting to experience academic sabotage, and when I stood my ground to help this younger that I prayed on my knees in Africa, now in America, and I said, god, I can't do this anymore, get me out. And that is when my American white deacon brother invited me to live with he and his family a couple hours away, and I said yes and I moved out.

15:00

And I did finally, after six months, get my diploma and transcript, got into an online Christian college. And my parents were not pleased with that because, uh, becoming a therapist and studying psychology is sinful, um. And they said uh, the only way that we will pay for your education is if we bless you to go to a certain school. So they wanted me to go to a Christian school five minutes away from home. And I said, no, I want to go to Liberty University online. And, uh, my dad goes. My mom whispers to my dad um, if you don't bless Katrina to go, uh, to this online Christian school, you don't have to pay for it. So my dad waltzes into the room and he says if I don't bless you to go to this Christian school, I will not pay for it.

15:50

So I had to run and I mean run to the printer, print out two syllabuses. I'm sorry I'm going back to this for a minute. This is the last academic sabotage thing, girl, I had to print out two syllabuses for both schools and prove to him that if you want to become a trauma therapist, you have to get a bachelor's in psychology. But he was like no, if you want to become a therapist, you have to go to the school five minutes down the road and study a four-year degree in human services. And so I had to print it out, highlight it, circle it, underline it and have a three-hour debate with my father. So, again, that shows academic sabotage. Because he was fighting for you to take a four-year degree in something that would not help you get to your aim and your goal. And so it finally came to being blue in the face and going if you want to become a teacher, you don't take an eight-year degree in becoming a surgeon, like it's just so simple. And so he finally said fine, you can go to Liberty University to study psychology, but we will only pay for one class at a time. Again, just so many more signs of academic sabotage.

17:06

So anyway, I left home throwing up and I moved in with my brother and his wife and they said the first night, they said we just we wanted to invite you to live here because we want to help you heal from the abuse that you've come from. We will never treat you like mom and dad did. We will never abuse you. They moved to a neighborhood on purpose that was full of African Americans. It was an older neighborhood going through gentrification and so a lot of houses were being uh, teared down and then being rebuilt, and so that means that a lot of young and then being rebuilt, and so that means that a lot of young, attractive white couples are moving into this African community. And so they were like we want to build community and raise our kids in diversity. And the missionary kid inside of me is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I get behind that, like totally, that's totally sounds like the missionary way to go.

18:02

Lo and behold, 12 weeks into living with them, I did not go to church three times, just three. You know, just three times. As a 22-year-old who's learning what it actually means to be an adult which, if you look at the pattern, katrina was forced to stay a child Something dangerous will happen if you become an adult, and you're going to see that in this pattern. Lo and behold, don't go to church three times. My brother and his wife sent me down and they go. You did not go to church three times and we need to know why. You live in our community, you eat our food and you take up our space. How dare you not go to church?

18:46

And so this is only 12 weeks in my body, shuts down. My body didn't fully know what was going on, but my brain and my heart knew that something, that it was too similar, and so I started cutting down how much food I ate, because if you are not pleased with me, I don't deserve to eat your food. And I'm sitting at the table as they are saying this to me and good girls try to keep it together. Good girls are not allowed to show masculine looking emotions like anger, but it's safe enough to show sniffles and tears, feminine emotions. And so I start leaking snot and tears everywhere and my body is vibrating and I'm hiding my face. And my sister-in-law gets a look at my face and she says we know this hurts, but we will never back down because we are teaching you what community truly looks like.

19:41

So, lo and behold, another 12 weeks go by and I end up getting shunned not kicked out, shunned out of this religious community. What is the difference between being shunned or kicked out of a household? I'm so glad you asked it is. Not only do they kick you out of their house, but they go behind your back to make sure that wherever you're planning on living is no longer an option. So, because you are not pleasing to this religious community, you are no longer human. You, you are no longer lovable you do, you are not worthy of belonging. And because we are jesus's people, it is also our duty to sabotage your basic human needs, which I will pause and say that is not jesus's character, like oh, my freaking word. And so, lo and behold, they sit me down and they go. You have hurt our community too much.

20:50

And the good girl inside of me, I also think, like being an African orphan, I just I care very deeply about people and a lot of my friends say, katrina, you care like too much. I don't think you understand that this world is going to rip you apart and they just don't care as much as you do. And you need to learn how to guard your heart. And I will say that is a deep problem of mine is I don't know how to guard my heart very well. So, bottom line, they say you have hurt us too deeply. So I say you know how have I hurt you?

21:23

You did not go to church. Three times you had to drop out of edge out of college. My parents said oh yeah, we have your college money, but we decided not to give it to you. So that is the end, y'all of eight. Actually. Yep, it finally goes up to eight years. Eight years of academic sabotage at the hands of my religious abusive leaders.

21:47

And when they took my college money away, I was devastated. And when they took that away, it was right around the same time that my brother and his wife were about to shun me. And so when they found out that I had to drop out of college, it meant that I was no longer worthy of belonging in the household. And so you were being shunned because you didn't go to church, because you had to drop out of college and because you were too private Apparently.

22:12

Sam, the kingdom of God cannot be built through introverts. It can only be built through extroverts who are in community. Therefore, your trauma, your quietness, your internal processing is too risky to our community Because, don't you know, we're trying to build community and diversity Doesn't make sense. So bottom line, they say that the church has advised them to send me away for 10 days I believe I can't remember if it was 10 or 7 days Because we need time to heal from the damage that you have caused and then, when you come back, we will decide what to do with you. You're not a person, you're a thing. You're a summer project.

23:03 - Sam (Host)

23:20 - Katrina (Guest)

We have phone calls every once in a while and I think, like recently, something really big happened in my life and the inner child in me did want to call mommy and it causes a lot of confusion in me and I would say it definitely is unhealthy with my brother and his wife. No, we can't talk, yeah, okay.

23:52

Yeah, and then actually, yeah, a sister said you deserved. It sounds like you deserve to be shunned out, and so we haven't talked in two years. It sounds like you deserve to be shunned out, and so we haven't talked in two years. I can't. I have finally come to a reconciling place of. It is not my duty to show up at family events and prove myself.

24:13

It is not to educate my abusers on why what they did was abuse. I think it is so scary to be in the presence of abusers who have no desire to change and no awareness of how much damage they caused. Spoil alert the damage almost cost me my life. It's taken, yeah, it's taken about this much time for the chronic pain to leave my body Bottom line. I was about to be sent away for 10 days so they could heal from the damage that I caused them. And, lo and behold, I get sick. So they put me in quarantine. And, man, I always mess this part up Before I get put in quarantine.

24:58

I am sitting on my bedroom floor starving myself and I said God, like I'm being shunned out. I don't have a car, I'm a college dropout, I don't have money and I don't have any friends. Like what are you doing? And I felt the Holy Spirit just whisper. I want you to stop rehearsing the pain in your head, get up and worship. And I said like what are you talking about? And he's like yeah, I know the champagne, but I want you to get up and worship. So I start worshiping and I said God, I pray, god, I. This is my biggest desire that someone's heart would be open to receive me.

25:37

Lo and behold, 12 hours later, this stunning African American woman living 150 feet across the street invited me to live with her and said that the Holy Spirit had told her that Katrina is being shunned across the street and she needs a home to live in. I want you to open your doors and have her live with you for 365 days. And so I'm in shock, like shock, shock, shock. So I go up to my brother and his wife and I'm like I'm moving out, just like you asked me to, not fully realizing that they didn't ask me to move out, they were shunning me out. And I only have one friend in the whole city and I'm going to live with her, and that just so happens to be our neighbor 150 feet across the street. Lo and behold, my sister-in-law reaches her hand across the table and goes yeah, your neighbor has said that if we don't give you our blessing and permission, you will not have permission to live with her. We are so honored that she would give us the the say so, the power, uh, to make this decision, and if we aren't okay with this, you will not have permission to live with her. This is like the pinnacle of I I just don't even know the words, but like what you are saying is that you aren't human, you aren't an adult. Any moment that you strive to make a decision as a woman, not a child, it will be taken away to shove you back into um submission.

27:10

And so my next book is going to be this crazy book about good girl syndrome, and I want the sub, the subtitle, to say girls are safe, but women are a risk. Why? Because girls can be controlled, but women oh, I've got to figure out. Girls are a girls are safe, but women are a risk. Because girls can be controlled, but women challenge authority. And so by me literally finding another home to rent a house from, it was a threat to their control, which means, yet again, here's the pattern You're taking away someone's basic human necessity. Why is it that, ever since getting to America, all of the religious abuse has to do with taking away basic human necessities? That is disgusting.

28:09

And so I listened to my abusers and I went back upstairs like a good girl, went back into quarantine and thinking that my abusers had the say-so of whether I had a home to live in or not, even though I was doing what they. So that is the difference. You weren't just kicking me out, you were sabotaging where I would live, and so it's a shunning. It is a shunning this is. This is big, not out of a neighborhood, but not even a city, but a state. They went behind my back, reached out to another family member asking if I could be sent to their house, which was actually in a different state. We are shipping you away, not as a woman, but as a child, and when they asked why, my other family members asked why they were like Katrina is too private and we can't do it anymore and that is why she is going to be shipped off. It is so shocking.

29:10

And so, lo and behold, I move out. I was shunned out. They took a walk, um, and when they came back I had all of my things out. I called a neighbor, their best friend neighbors. So I have to help you understand this. I moved into the neighborhood to be their live in African American nanny. So not only was I the African American nanny for their white children, but I was also an African nanny for their neighbor's white children, and I don't know why it didn't dawn in me that if I'm being shunned out of one religious white community that of course, their white neighborhood friends are going to shun me as well.

29:54

And so the good religious girl I'm taking a walk trying to figure out what I'm doing. Taking a walk trying to figure out what I'm doing and it's so fascinating. The good girl inside of me could not figure out. Oh, you have a key to your African American neighbor's house. She's given you permission to move in. Move in, do it on your own. I had to call a friend and she had to walk me through. You were being shunned out. Go home, put everything in trash bags and get out. And so she had to walk me through that which good girls have been taught through harsh, inhuman treatment that you can't do until you've been told, just like you can't graduate until you've been given permission. Again, you can't move out unless you've been given permission or you've been tortured to the point of starvation and throwing up. You only do when you are forced, because you are a girl, not a woman.

30:52 - Sam (Host)

I mean the imagery of, like you know, the trash bags and like that sort of thing is so powerful and my, uh, my first thought is like, did it feel like you were an orphan all over again?

31:09 - Katrina (Guest)

um, yeah, okay, in the moment I was so numb that I couldn't see that. But yes, wow, no one's ever asked me that question that way. But yes, um, basically I think I said in the book basically they canceled out my belonging as a sister. Yeah, um, I was no longer worthy of being your sister because I wasn't good enough.

31:36

And actually, on that note, um, my other sister came to that same household, to my brother's household, and she is white and she didn't go to church that weekend.

31:47

And my brother wanted to go to church that weekend, but she didn't want to go, so we didn't go. It was like this awkward, oh, she doesn't want to go to church, so therefore we're just not going to go to church. And I was like, wait, so we didn't go. It was like this awkward, oh, she doesn't want to go to church, so therefore we're just not going to go to church. And I was like, wait, so why wasn't she canceled out of belonging when she didn't want to go to church? But the African who literally just came here throwing up and starving herself and out of abuse, didn't make it to church and therefore she's canceled out of belonging. It's the same thing as why the same white family member, so not mom and not the African adopted, but the same other white family member also struggled with depression and was not canceled out of belonging for that as well. So there's not equal treatment.

32:34 - Sam (Host)

I am curious, as you were talking about and this is one of the questions that I wanted to get to, because you talk a lot about and use still quite very spiritual language and you talk about the Holy Spirit and things like that and so I feel like it's a two part question, which is like where is your sense of faith and spirituality now, and how on earth did you keep it? Like? That's kind of, because I'm just like I'm mad on your behalf just listening to this, and so I'm going like how on earth have you even been able to maintain any semblance of faith and spirituality?

33:21 - Katrina (Guest)

oh, my goodness, I love that question. So many people, when they've heard my story, have asked me that question and the only thing that I'm able to sum it up as is I can't base my relationship with God on all the horrendous things that man has done. The way that I see it is, it's that same analogy of work or school the new kid, the new colleague, looks different, smells weird, eats different food and the majority of people are all in a group gossiping and going. Ew, we're not going to be that person's friend. But you have a choice to make Either you go with the crowd who's made these assumptions about the new kid, and you might have robbed yourself of one of the coolest relationships ever.

34:08

And that's how I just personally feel about God is that I can't base my understanding of God on the horrific things that my dad, the Anglican pastor or the deacon brother has done to me. I just have to base it on the character that I see of Jesus. And so I was like you know, that really is a potent question and I have to be able to argue this well. And so I was like we have to add a chapter in the book called drop roll, please, the biggest God question and it is how in the world are you a Christian after all of this religious abuse and I have to say I don't have any judgment towards people that have left the faith because of severe religious abuse I am holding on.

35:02

Sometimes it feels like by a thread, but I would say, looking at the character of Jesus, I heard someone say like his track record is perfect and it is available at all times and it's in the bible. So I was looking at his character, which I also want to be humble and vulnerable on here and say y'all, I am not a perfect christian. I am struggling. I have a bible sitting next to my bed and it has been really hard. It's really hard to admit this out loud I have not been able to read my bible in two years well, the bible was weaponized against you.

35:39 - Sam (Host)

So like, logically, that actually makes a whole lot of sense, and I think you know when I'm working with people around like faith, curiosity and exploration and actually trying to develop an authentic sense of faith on your own terms, not just what you were taught. Part of that has to be around like, like, am I only finding God in the Bible or am I finding God elsewhere? Right, so, like you know, and can I be a Christian and not at church? Can I be a Christian and not read the Bible? And so it's like really pulling apart that whole narrative of like. Well, are these three things in terms of like God, the church and the Bible, are they so interconnected that I can't have one without the other, or are they three separate entities?

36:40 - Katrina (Guest)

That's so good. That's so good. Okay, I'm going to get passionate now and hopefully not get tearful, so I just want to quickly give just a couple of pieces here of the character that I've seen of God. Number one he weeps with us before he saves the day. So, with Lazarus dying, he came to the funeral and Lazarus' sister is like man, if you had been here earlier, this wouldn't have happened. And before Jesus preaches or goes, come on, you guys, break it up, stop crying. I'm here, I saved the day. No, he actually leans into his humanity and he cries with them. He weeps bitterly and then he saves the day. And I was like that's so interesting. And then we're going to go back into my story, but I just want to go further into this. Jesus could have chosen to be born in a princess or a queen's body. Instead, he decided to be born in mary, who I think was 13, maybe 16, I can't remember I think 13 yeah, a girl who is living in poverty to grow in her womb and then be born in poverty.

37:52

And not only that, he could have been born in a golden palace of splendor, but he decided to be born in a farm full of the stench of of animal waste. And then, after he, he decides the most inhuman way to die, like scholars say that his body looked like raw meat. He did not look like a human, he was not recognizable. Um then, after he comes back to life, he doesn't choose to get on tv or the newspapers or go around boasting about it, asking for glory. He actually comes back to humanity and cooks breakfast for his friends. I I'm like, come on, like, if that is not the most human thing, jesus, I'll take bacon and eggs, please, thank you. Thank you, jesus. Okay, great, those are just a couple, but I will say so.

38:49

Coming back to how do you hold on to your faith, I will say, after getting shunned out, I was lying in bed and the woman across the street her name is Gwyneth. There's a chapter in the book called Dun Dun Dun the woman across the street, and I'm like the most epic thing I've ever heard, like the most epic thing, and I'm lying in her house in bed. And, by the way, I tiptoed around her house because, after you've had everything stripped away from you, your body learns. The only way I can cope and be safe in this world is if I am invisible. And so I would tiptoe around her house, and then I even felt guilty to turn Netflix on. So I would shut. Listen to this. I would shut the curtains, lock the door, because I was terrified that my brother and his wife and their neighbors would see me resting. I was so, um, so terrified, um, and then, when she would come home, I would quickly turn it all off and run back to my room. So I put on social media. It is safer to rest in private than it is to rest in public.

39:56

Good girls have learned that, and so I had to learn. You know, gwyneth didn't invite me to live with her, to be good enough. She invited me to be an authentic human around her, which, by the way, guess what? When my dad heard that I was living with her, he goes oh, just tell her that you'll cook all the meals. Just tell her that you'll cook all the meals. Are you kidding me? So he still saw me in this way of you. You are a servant. In order to belong in this household, you are a servant.

40:24

And it made Gwyneth so sick. She made a rule, and it was the first thing that ever reminded me I was worth, I was worthy of respect, I was worthy of protection. She said none of your family is allowed in my house. Like I'm sorry, but that is my only boundary. None of your family. Like they disgust me. And we actually we banned the word.

40:46

I will say their behavior disgusted her and it disgusted me, which is so fascinating that in order in order for me to see how disgusting the behavior was, I had to see another person be disgusted by it. I was so numb. And the other thing is, the pattern of the good girl system is that you have to be blessed to do something, and so it's better to see someone else doing it in order for you to do it. And so I couldn't be angry about academic sabotage until I saw my mentor angry about it. I couldn't be angry about the shunning until the woman across the street was angry about it. It means you're not human, you're a copycat. I had to learn to form my own opinion.

41:30

Wow, I'm like even just getting more realizations as we're talking, and so her going your family is not allowed in my house took my identity realization to a whole nother place that I was a human who deserved protection and worth and boundaries. And then she also said Katrina, do not ask for my permission. I did not invite you here so I could parent you. You are a woman, you pay rent, you live here, do whatever you want. Like are a woman, you pay rent, you live here, do whatever you want. Like I don't know how to do that, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, how do I do that? She was like figure it out, you can do it. Basically, she was blessing me to be an adult and I, sam, I had never been invited to be an adult and I was a 22 year old woman without a car or a job.

42:20

Yeah it like that is shocking. Like 20, a lot of 22 year olds in America are married and graduated college already. Um, so, bottom line, back to the Christianity stuff. I couldn't go to church for the first couple of weeks and I actually said it so well in the book. I wish I had pulled it up. Basically, um, I, I caught myself. Oh god, I have to go to church because I have to prove. I have to make sure that the religious community sees that my car is out of the driveway on a sunday morning, because that will prove that I belong. Oops, you made a mistake. Katrina's at church, which means we shouldn't have shunned her out, which means she is a good Christian, which means she does belong.

43:01

And then God stopped me and he said no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how our relationship is going to work. It can't be a game of proving your worth and belonging. And so I said God, I can't go to church right now, I can't open my Bible right now, because if I do, I know that it's going to be a game. I am trying to prove that I belong. And so he stripped me down and he and I was like God, I'm not reading my Bible. He was like I know, and it's okay for now.

43:29

I was like God, I'm not going to church, I know, but it's okay for now. God, I just, I just can't. I know, and that's okay for now. He said all you who are weary and heavy burdened just come and I will give you rest. So I was like are you sure? And he's like yes, and so it looked like on Sundays, sleeping in and watching Netflix. It looked like the pillow, my pillowcase, drenched in tears, that he extracted the tears from my pillowcase and put them in a sacred jar and he just wept with me. He didn't try to pursue me with motivational speeches or spiritual to-do lists. He wasn't looking at me through spiritual goggles, which is what I use in the book.

44:12

Is that, living in this household with my parents and with my brother, I was constantly being looked at through spiritual goggles. Is she good enough? Because she must be controlled at all times? And I think that God allowed me to go through, god blessed me to go through spiritual fatigue. What is it? Spiritual fatigue and spiritual burnout? Yeah, spiritual burnout. And I kept as a religious good girl.

44:45

That terrified me. I thought something bad's going to happen if people see how damaged spiritually damaged I am. But God, god blessed me to be in that place and I find that interesting that it actually would have been dangerous to go back to church at that moment, because it wouldn't be coming out of a healthy place and also your body didn't feel safe to go to church, and I want to make a post about that. If your body is terrified to go into the church building, it's not because you're a bad Christian. It literally is your. What is it your body's system telling you? I don't feel. Your nervous system does not feel safe. And then I also realized, sam, religious abuse is not a reflection of me or of you. It is a reflection of those people's hearts and the way they see Jesus, the way they interpret Jesus, and really you're just embarrassing yourself yeah, yeah so much trauma and you're putting that on other people.

45:45

So I had to remember this has nothing to do with me, it has everything to do with them and it actually has nothing to do with the character of God.

45:52 - Sam (Host)

Um, that's my encouragement yeah, and I love that because, like, I think and this is what I love about the podcast is that I actually want all of those different voices, because there are people who experience religious abuse and never want to have anything to do with God and want to burn it all down, and that's okay.

46:17

But there are people who don't, and I want them to see that they don't have to burn it all down if they don't want to, and I mean, like I would not identify as being a Christian anymore, but I also don't have a problem with Jesus, like I'm pretty sure he was a pretty cool guy and I think we would vibe Um, but I definitely, I definitely have a problem with the people who claim to represent him and that's where, and and I get that you know, for a lot of people, that's where they get stuck and that's okay. But I also want people to be able to hear voices who say actually there's more than that and you, if you want to hold onto your faith, you can. Um, which is going to be a really nice segue into what is generally my final question, which is what would you say to someone who is like, fresh in their deconstruction? Or they've just been kicked out or they've just been shunned and the foundation is like giving way underneath them. What would you say to them?

47:27 - Katrina (Guest)

That's so good, oh my goodness. You have permission to rest permission to rest. You have permission to rest in public and in private. You have permission to be angry. You have permission to be confused. You actually have permission to be human.

47:50

I don't think that. I don't think everyone, anyone, has ever looked at me and given me permission to be those things. And the thing is, Jesus can handle all of that and I am so desperately sorry for the religiously abusive people that made you think otherwise. Yeah, and then I would also say you are so radically chosen and profusely loved that is kind of my message that I try to give everyone is, when I left the road of shunning and separation and annexation, after 365 days of living 150 feet across the street from my own abusers, I said God, what do you want me to take away from this season? What do you want me to take away from this road? And he said you are radically chosen and profusely loved. And I was like isn't that so interesting that after being an orphan, then being sabotaged and then being shunned, God just wanted to boil it all back down to your true identity as someone who is radically chosen and profusely loved? And I was like that is amazing. I have to spread that all over the world. All over the world. So I got t shirts made and they just arrived this week, so I'm planning on having a photo shoot for that.

49:14

I also. I was at work the other day and there was a woman there who was serving all of me my colleagues and I through chiropractic services, and she and I spent 45 minutes sharing our stories and just the pain that she and I both shared together. And I gave her a hug, and I didn't just give her one, I gave her three and I held her hand and I knelt down on the ground and I gave her a hug, and I didn't just give her one, I gave her three and I held her hand and I knelt down on the ground and I looked at her and I said you are radically chosen and profusely loved. And she just bubbled over with tears and she said this is all I needed. I just needed a hug. I just needed like.

49:52

I've never heard those words before. Can you say it again? Can you say it again? And I said you are radically chosen and profusely loved. I think that people need the reminder that you belong. Yeah, Like. I think that that is the worst damage that religious abusers have done is that they think they are so high and mighty, so spiritually cocky, that not only do they take basic human necessities away from you, but they somehow mess with the deep core of who you are and telling you that you don't belong and actually you do.

50:26 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I love that. I do the non-religious version of that essentially, which is that you are good, you have always been good, right, and it's that I think you know when you talk about. The religious abuse takes away that part of your identity. It takes away your ability to see your inherent goodness as who you are and um, and so I love that. Thank you so much for joining me. I have loved this conversation so much, like so much. Um, I, yeah, I think I mean broad strokes. I think you're freaking incredible. Uh, and I don't know broad strokes. I think you're freaking incredible and I don't know, like, I mean, I do know, but I also don't know how you have the vibrancy and the energy to talk about what you do. I think it is just incredible and also incredibly brave to be as vulnerable as you are, um, and so I'm so thankful for you joining me thank you for creating.

51:42 - Katrina (Guest)

I keep calling every podcast that I go on a sacred space. Thank you creating a sacred space for people to come on and talk about something that is desperately scary. It takes energy, it takes time, it takes so much vulnerability. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, sam.

52:02 - Sam (Host)

Oh, thank you. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.