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From Scope Creep to Charging Right with Heather Zeitzwolfe
Episode 88 • 7th March 2024 • Podcast Editors Mastermind • Bryan Entzminger, Carrie Caulfield, Daniel Abendroth, Jennifer Longworth
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Hello and welcome, fellow editors and audio enthusiasts. Today on Podcast Editors Mastermind, we have a crucial conversation lined up, one that veers into the often overlooked territory of the podcast editing business—beyond just the financials, we delve deep into the mindset essential for success.

Together, we will shed light on the vital practice of setting boundaries with clients, not just to preserve sanity, but to establish a sustainable business model. It's about knowing when to raise those rates or, if necessary, part ways with clients that may not align with our business goals or values.

We'll explore the challenges of scaling our services, striking a balance between growing our business and maintaining the quality our clients have come to expect. Heather will also share her expertise on classifying workers correctly, navigating payroll, and the importance of suitable bookkeeping practices.

Be prepared for an enriching session that will arm you with the insights needed to take actionable steps toward solidifying the foundation of your editing business. You might find the ideas discussed today to be just as crucial as the latest editing software or mixing technique.

So let's embark on this journey of professional growth together. Prepare to be informed, inspired, and ready to take your podcast editing business to greater heights.

Listen to Discover

  • Navigating Client Relationships
  • Contracts and Setting Boundaries
  • Pricing Strategies
  • Financial Management and Growth
  • The Legalities of Contract Work
  • Improving Operations and Client Fit
  • Valuable Life Advice Sharing
  • Expert Perspectives and Recommendations

Links And Resources

  • Here is the Gusto affiliate link where you will receive $100 Visa Gift Card if you sign up for payroll using this link: https://gusto.com/r/heather5388
  • https://getradicalprofitgrowthaccelerator.com/scope-creep
  • Waveapps.com: https://www.waveapps.com
  • QuickBooks: https://quickbooks.intuit.com
  • Notion: https://www.notion.so
  • Airtable: https://www.airtable.com
  • RescueTime: https://www.rescuetime.com
  • Toggl: https://toggl.com
  • Gordon Firemark: https://firemark.com
  • Be part of the live experience

About Heather Zeitzwolfe

Heather Zeitzwolfe is a seasoned professional with a sharp grasp on the complexities of scope creep in service industries, particularly where creative work is involved. With extensive experience dealing with varying business dynamics, she recognizes the challenges caused by work that expands beyond initial projections—whether due to employees exceeding the brief to impress, clients requesting unrecompensed extras, or communication failures.

Editor

This episode of the Podcast Editors Mastermind was edited by Alejandro Ramirez. You can find him on Facebook if you're interested in talking with him about editing your show.

Be a Guest

If you're a podcast editor, we'd love to see if you'd be a fit for a future episode. Fill out this form to let us know you're interested, and we'll contact you to see if it's a good fit.

Your Yetis Are

About the Podcast Editors Mastermind

The Podcast Editors Mastermind is for professional podcast editors who want to grow their business and get more clients. We’re creating a community of like-minded professionals that are passionate about the art and science of editing podcasts.

Our goal is to help you build your business by providing tools, resources, and support so you can focus on what matters most—your craft. This isn’t just another group where everyone talks about how great they are at podcast editing; we show our work!

Follow or subscribe and take the Podcast Editors Mastermind with you today!



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

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Transcripts

Daniel Abendroth:

So How much is that?

Jennifer Longworth:

Welcome to Podcast Editors Mastermind. This is the business

Jennifer Longworth:

podcast for you podcast editors out there. We started

Jennifer Longworth:

as a small mastermind, what, 4 years ago almost

Jennifer Longworth:

at this point, and now we share it with you guys. It's kinda

Daniel Abendroth:

the thing about, like, it's it was like, what, in March of 2020? March of

Jennifer Longworth:

2020. Well, our first episode was recorded in the hallway at

Jennifer Longworth:

Podfest. Wow. Kinda nuts. But I'm Jennifer

Jennifer Longworth:

Longworth with Bourbon Barrel Podcasting. And my cohost

Jennifer Longworth:

today? Daniel Abendroth at

Daniel Abendroth:

RothMedia.Audio. And not appearing are Bryan and

Jennifer Longworth:

Carrie. Hopefully, they'll be back again with us soon. And we have a very

Jennifer Longworth:

special guest today, Heather Zeitzwolfe. Heather,

Jennifer Longworth:

unmute yourself and welcome to the program. Hey. Thank you. I I you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, probably Easter or something, but it looks like something out of,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, Midsummer Night Dream. I I love it. Oh, there's Bryan. Bryan is

Jennifer Longworth:

joining us in the comments today. He's not feeling well.

Daniel Abendroth:

Unfortunately, he's still recovering from COVID. He's all good to go except a

Daniel Abendroth:

cough, which, as you can imagine, trying to record an hour long podcast when

Daniel Abendroth:

you have a tickle in your throat is probably not the best idea. So

Daniel Abendroth:

he'll be joining us in chat,

Daniel Abendroth:

though we do miss him on the show. And we welcome anyone to join us

Jennifer Longworth:

in chat. We love to see questions, comments as we go along. Please

Jennifer Longworth:

jump in and be part of the conversation. So our special guest, I'm

Jennifer Longworth:

gonna give you the official bio here. Actually, I'm stealing it from your

Jennifer Longworth:

LinkedIn profile. Oh, I don't know. I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

haven't, but I don't know if I've updated that. It still sounds like you. It

Jennifer Longworth:

says you are a creative, empathetic nerd who enjoys numbers.

Jennifer Longworth:

Right? Yep. That hasn't changed. Right. She helps her clients understand their

Jennifer Longworth:

finances so they can make empowered decisions in their business. Her approach

Jennifer Longworth:

is nonjudgmental and shame free. She's not

Jennifer Longworth:

your dad's accountant, unless your dad's accountant has funky

Jennifer Longworth:

colored hair transforms tofu into delicious desserts and geeks out

Jennifer Longworth:

on writing sketch comedy. Still you. Yep. That's still me.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

All right. Right. Her passions include cooking amazing plant based

Jennifer Longworth:

food, standing up for animal rights. This includes humans and helping

Jennifer Longworth:

podcasters. So again, welcome to the show. Thank you.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. And if people were at

Jennifer Longworth:

Podcast, you were the amazing closing keynote this

Jennifer Longworth:

year telling us Thank you. The fairy tale of the

Jennifer Longworth:

scope creep, which Yes. Basically was just

Jennifer Longworth:

a message for Editor. And I felt very called out,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

which is why you're on the podcast. Oh, well, you know, there was a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

of juicy details that had to be cut out for time. And,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

truth be told, I was scrambling to cut things before

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

coming on stage. That's why I was looking at my notes because

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

there was just so much to go over, and I had to cut a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

of juicy good stuff. So I'm glad to be here to talk

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

further about this stuff. So give us a quick definition of scope

Jennifer Longworth:

creep. Yeah. Scope creep. You know, it's one of those words that some people are

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

familiar with and other people have never even heard of scope

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

or scope creep. You know? And so I think it kinda just depends on the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

type of business that you've worked for or, like, the type of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

office or whatever. But scope creep can exist in pretty

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

much any kind of service industry. But with creative

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

people that are producing something, it can happen a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

because the scope creep is this thing that comes in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

where you end up doing things that were either

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

not what the client asked for, but you thought they

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

wanted it, or you're going above and beyond

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

more than they need the client, or the client asks

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you to do extra things that you never intended to based on the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

price that you came up with, or it can also

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

kind of flood into, like, not having the right communication with your

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

employees or your contractors where they understand

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

what you're getting paid for, so the company is getting paid for because a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

of employees love to go above and beyond, or maybe

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

they're just dragging themselves and taking way too much time,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and then it blows your budget. So you can blow your budget either way.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

So it can happen in all these different areas, so that's why we have to

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

look at how we're pricing ourselves, our contracts with our our

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

clients, and just having a real clear definition of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

what it is that we intend to deliver and what they

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

want us to deliver. So one of the things you said when we were

Jennifer Longworth:

talking about this about eliminating scope creep, because that's kind of what we

Jennifer Longworth:

wanna do is starting with the right clients in the

Jennifer Longworth:

first place and Exactly. Getting it a good understanding

Jennifer Longworth:

of of the expectations and everything too. So

Jennifer Longworth:

the most commonly asked question in the podcast editor group is how do I find

Jennifer Longworth:

clients? But we also need to know how we find the right clients. So what

Jennifer Longworth:

what's your insights on that? Yeah. You know, it's so so difficult

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

when you first start a business. You know, like, you're so eager to make money

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

because you gotta have cash coming in that, you know, tend to, like, just take

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

whoever or we may take our friends. And friends

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

could be a good relationship, but also friends may, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

overstep their boundaries if you haven't really defined those

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

boundaries. They may also kind of expect a discount

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

or you feel obligated to give them a discount, and now you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

getting inundated with a bunch of work that maybe you're getting underpaid

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

for and you're maybe over delivering. So, friends, it's

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a great way to kinda start your business off, especially if you're just kinda dipping

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

your toe into something and maybe you give them the friend's price or whatever. But

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

let them know this is not always gonna be the price and I'm doing you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a solid. So there's that. It can ruin a friendship

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

too. I talked about this in my presentation, the friendship thing.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

And then the other thing is, like, looking for clients. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

probably you're gonna look within your network that you already are

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

surrounded with. So, Jennifer, you're in Kentucky. So you said

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you've gotten some local clients, so you're looking in your local community. You meet people

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

in your local community, but are they going to be the right

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

fit for you? You know, it's a lot of it is just having really

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

good conversations with people and not being so eager to just take on a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

client. And, again, granted, if you need money coming in, you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

gonna just take somebody, but you may decide later on, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

maybe this isn't the right client for me. So have things in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

place where you can evaluate, like, is this client the right

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

fit for me? Maybe I should get other clients,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and I believe that's probably something we're gonna talk about later on. It's kind of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

looking to see who is the right fit clients. Yeah. I know

Jennifer Longworth:

after I'm into it who's not a good fit.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Yeah. So once you start to get that data of, like, you know what

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

makes not a good fit, like, start writing those things down. And then when you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

have, like, they call it discovery calls or whatever you wanna call it,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

You know, start to ask them questions to kind of vet these things out.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

What are some problems that you encounter, Jennifer? Like, late payments or,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, delivering stuff to you too late or what a

Jennifer Longworth:

It's Divas. Oh. Okay. So the, like, the high

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

maintenance, that sort of thing. That I'm expected to drop

Jennifer Longworth:

everything and fix their show right now. And I've

Jennifer Longworth:

lost 2 clients because they were divas, and I'm like, see you. Don't let the

Jennifer Longworth:

door hit you on the way out. You know? Yeah. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

maybe you have like a no diva policy or something in your business.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Like I have like a no jerks. Like, I'm not work working with any

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

jerks. When I first started my business, I had a jerk. And I was like

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I thought to myself, wait a minute. This is the whole reason why I started

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a business to begin with is I don't have to take jerks anymore. Mhmm. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

maybe just let them know, like, in the scope of it, these are the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

parameters of when you can, you know, ask me to do things. This is

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

the hours that I work, and then you can define it. And if they are

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a diva and, you know, you can just say, like, hey, this was in the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

contract that we agreed on, and I would just clearly define that.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

But some people are still gonna be divas regardless. Right. You know? So I always

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

have this thing where at the end of the year, I look at, like, how

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

much clients paid me through the year. You know, if you track things like in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

QuickBooks or, you know, some some way that you could track the invoices of your

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

clients, you could see, like, okay, which ones were, like, the the highest

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

paying ones. And then you can kind of rate them on, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

pain in the butt client versus easygoing, always

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

on time, pays on time. And then you can factor

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

in, like, a pain in the butt fee if you really wanna keep them on.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

You know? That's what I do. Yeah. I was telling my kid about that last

Jennifer Longworth:

night when I was, you know, complaining about somebody. I was like, yeah. I need

Jennifer Longworth:

the pain in the butt fee. Do you put that item line on

Daniel Abendroth:

your invoices pain in the butt? But I put it on my calculation. It's in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

my sales spreadsheet when I'm calculating the price. I put it in a little buffer

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

in there. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing is, like, if you find that certain

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

clients like, if you've got prices for things and you know that,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, some clients are gonna ask for a little bit more and but

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you don't know yet if they're going to ask you for those little bit more

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

types of things. Maybe just put in, like, a 10%, 20% buffer

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

of, like, time and and payment, you know, just to make up for

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

the the pain in the butt potential. Pain in the butt

Jennifer Longworth:

potential. Mhmm. And then you just start working that in.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Or, you know, the first time you work with them have, like, an onboarding fee

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and, like, kind of onboard go through the onboarding producer, and then

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

maybe you'll find from that isn't just not a good fit. I don't know. That's

Jennifer Longworth:

true. It's like a probationary time, you know, where they're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

filling you out and you're filling them out. But well, Bryan's not here, but he

Jennifer Longworth:

has a question in the comments. Okay. Is there a common

Jennifer Longworth:

driver between those who most often ignore their own

Jennifer Longworth:

boundaries and step endoscope creep? Oh, that's a good

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

question. Yeah. I mean, I think that a lot of times it's just

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that people just don't know because we haven't set any boundaries.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

So I'm one of those people, like, if I get an idea in my head,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I'm just gonna text the person that's involved with it. Like, I don't even think

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

about, is it 2 in the morning? Is it the weekend? Like, the ideas popped

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

in my head and I just send it. And it's not like I don't respect

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

their boundaries. It's just like that's my thought. But I know people, like, put

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

things on their phone where it's like do not disturb and all that kind of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

stuff. And then when I see that, I'm like, oh, they probably don't want me

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to contact them. So, you know, let people know. I mean, it could be good

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

natured, like mine is. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to be a diva.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I'm just like ideas come into my head. I oftentimes have very little boundaries.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Like, I just let let people contact me anytime they want. So you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

just have to to let them know, like, hey, I'm with my kids

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

3 days a week. Don't bother me during this time or something. But as

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

far as, like, what kind of people? I'm not really sure. I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

mean, high maintenance people, I guess. Or really, really low

Jennifer Longworth:

maintenance people who don't think about boundaries like me.

Daniel Abendroth:

Yeah. I know I've run into, like, acquiescing too much

Daniel Abendroth:

because, like, I have my email, you know, linked to my phone. So whenever I

Daniel Abendroth:

get an email, like, 7 or 8 at night, it's like, I feel like that

Daniel Abendroth:

urge to, like, respond right away and would, like,

Daniel Abendroth:

take care of it. But it's not, like, stop myself and be, like, this can

Daniel Abendroth:

wait until the morning. Yeah. And then once you once you set that standard,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

if you do respond quickly, which I do oftentimes, then you've

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

set that expectation now forever. And so then when you don't respond

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

quickly, they're like, hey. Yeah. What happened? And maybe you just

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

say, hey. You know, I'm getting back to you right away on this because we're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

we're first starting out together. But in the future, there's gonna be maybe

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a 24 hour turnaround. You know? So let's say you

Daniel Abendroth:

are working with a client, scope creep is happening. You figure

Daniel Abendroth:

out, like, down the road, they're not a right fit. Like, I guess, what do

Daniel Abendroth:

you determine is, like, not the right fit? And then how do you

Daniel Abendroth:

proceed to essentially, like, fire your client? Like, what is your strategy there?

Daniel Abendroth:

Because for me, it's like well, the one thing I struggle with is, like, I

Daniel Abendroth:

guess, like, coming from, like, a scarcity mindset is, like, I don't wanna fire

Daniel Abendroth:

this client because now I'm making less money. Mhmm.

Daniel Abendroth:

And, like, that feels icky. But then also, like, the process

Daniel Abendroth:

having that conversation of, like, we're not a good fit. Goodbye.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Yeah. Well, if you don't like that uncomfortable conversation, raise your rates.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

That's even worse. But it was

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

seriously, though, if it's just not working out, maybe find somebody that would be

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a better fit for them. Mhmm. I mean, do you work with

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

mainly, like, one industry? Like, I know some people are like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

oh, I only work with lawyers or, you know, with doctors, you know, whatever.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

And they kinda know the expectations of those, you know, people that are,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, are in that same industry usually have the same kind of tendencies.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

But if you've got a whole wide range of clients, it may make it a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

little bit more difficult. But you're saying, like, you've gotta pay the bills and

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

stuff. You gotta weigh that, like, the pros and cons of, like, if I let

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

this person go, okay, maybe my stress level is gonna go down, my

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

health is gonna be better. I won't be working such long hours. Yeah. I'll be

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

get paid less, but I won't have all those awful things. So,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you know, that is part of business, but I'd find somebody else for them.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Like, give them, like, 3 recommendations of other people that they could work with maybe,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

but or raise rates. Yeah. Yeah. I think

Daniel Abendroth:

I had, like, a a while ago or something that that like, it's always in

Daniel Abendroth:

my head. It's, like, if there's something you don't wanna do or somebody don't wanna

Daniel Abendroth:

work with, give them like a really high number because either one, they don't wanna

Daniel Abendroth:

work with you and problem solved or 2, they do, but at least you're getting

Daniel Abendroth:

well compensated for the discomfort. And I

Jennifer Longworth:

tried to break up with a scope creep client recently. I was like, you know

Jennifer Longworth:

what? Maybe I'm not the one for you because I

Jennifer Longworth:

have this day job. I can't drop everything during the week. And

Jennifer Longworth:

they went, we'll fix it. Oh. We'll cater to you. And I

Jennifer Longworth:

was like, well, drat. Hope you get one in.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Yeah. Well, so sometimes, you know, you just have to and things will probably

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

turn around for that person, I would imagine. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

it's just like setting the boundaries. But that whole presentation that I did,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

it really all came down to, like, the contract. And, like, from the contract, set

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

the terms. And that way, they know what to expect. You

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know what to expect. And when those things don't align, then you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, hey. You know what? I know you're in a rush for this. There's

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

gonna be an extra fee, you know, and then, you know, you're gonna get paid

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

more and maybe you have to bring in a contractor to help you with it,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

but at least you're getting compensated for it. So let's

Jennifer Longworth:

talk about that contract. Yeah. Is what it all comes

Jennifer Longworth:

down to. My contract is kinda weak right now, and I know I need to

Jennifer Longworth:

revamp it, especially since I'm bringing on new contractors and,

Jennifer Longworth:

and things are, are changing in my little business. That's not a one

Jennifer Longworth:

woman show anymore. I'm like, oh, maybe need to consider

Jennifer Longworth:

this. So when drawing up a new contract, what

Jennifer Longworth:

are some things I need to be considering? What do I need to think of?

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Okay. So if you are thinking that you're gonna outsource some of this work,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you'll wanna think about okay. It's different if you're doing the work and it's

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

going directly to you, but now you're bringing out somebody else, you have to pay

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

them. It's gotta be something that I mean, unless you're, like, sending it overseas or

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

something, you're gonna be paying a decent rate. Right? So then there's gotta be some

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

kind of markup for that. Again, in my presentation, like, I talked about,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, rather than paying by the hour, maybe pay by the project.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Definitely. And so if you do pay by have them pay by the project, the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

client should also be paying by the project, like, within a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

certain scope. So that way you have expectations of, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

okay. I know, like, every time I do this show for this person,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

if it's x amount of length or whatever, I'm gonna pay my

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

contractor this, and I always know that I'm gonna make this percentage. And that

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

way, you know, you've covering all your costs. So I would make sure, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

think about, like, okay. Am I gonna pay a contractor to do this? How much

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

am I gonna pay them for this? And then what do I wanna have

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

left over? So figure out those pieces, and then you can

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

do some things to kind of, like, sweeten the deal of, like, having a little

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

extra things, you know, like, I talked about bundling your offer. Like, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

could have, like, a, you know, 3 tiered thing, or you could have

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

little I was gonna say hors d'oeuvres. That's not the word I'm thinking. A la

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

carte. A la carte. Yes. You can have some a la carte

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

type stuff that will be extra. But, again, thinking about, like, if it you have

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to outsource it, how much is that gonna cost? So put together a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

spreadsheet, or if you hate spreadsheets, put it just down on a piece of paper

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and kind of figure out how much you wanna make. And, you know, you can

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

start with, like, how long it took you to to do this, what you wanna

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

make from it, what you were making before, and then you're gonna have to add

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a little bit of buffer. So prices are probably gonna have to go up if

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you are bringing on contractors. Oh, yeah. Prices are going

Jennifer Longworth:

up. Watch out. Oh, we got a question. Is there

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a typical upcharge that would help us be in an appropriate

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

range? Yeah. You know what? It really depends on a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

lot of your overhead. Oh, wait. I, enough to cover

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

the admin, but not so much as to be gouging.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Yeah. Okay. So, you know, the thing with our business is it kinda all starts

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

with if this is not a side hustle, if this is our bread and butter

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

business, right, this is our main gig, we need to be able to pay our

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

bills. Right? So we need to look at, like, what is our budget

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

for our personal life? And then how much do we need to make in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

our business to cover that? Because, hopefully, our business is

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

gonna cover that. And then how much extra do we want? So we

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

can kinda start from there and kind of backtrack. Like, how many clients do I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

wanna take on? How much do they need to how much would they have to

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

pay if for me to make the money that I wanna make? And you can

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

kinda back into it that way and start to figure, like, okay. If I'm

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

gonna have 10 clients and they're each, you know, spending

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I'm just making things up. A 1,000 a month. Okay. Are you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

making a 1,000, or is that, is that, like, net of all your costs,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

or is that before all the costs? Like, is that the sales price? So you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

gotta have to think about both. Like, what do I wanna charge them? What do

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I wanna keep in my pocket? So I'd start with, what do I wanna keep

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

in my pocket and back backtrack? And you'll find that that's a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

scary number. Like, you think like, oh, yeah. I wanna make, like, 200,000

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

net income. And then you, like, look and you're like, oh my god. I have

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to, like, bring in $700,000 worth of,

Daniel Abendroth:

you know, business. Then you're like, do I really wanna deal with that? Maybe

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you don't wanna have certain services where the margins are

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

thinner. Maybe you wanna have things that have higher margins. So,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

where you make more from that service. So you you kinda have to look

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

at the blend and the mix. That's why I like to have bundled services because

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

it's, you can, you know, put in some little extra things in there

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that maybe are, like, recordings, you know, prerecorded

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

classes that you've done or something that you can offer them. Oh.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Something that's not gonna, like, take that like, you do it once, and

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

then you just give it to them. Like, you put together, like, a pitch deck.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I'm just making things up. Like, oh, you like to be on podcast. Okay. These

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

are great pitches that you can use to go on podcast, or maybe you've

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

done some research on different podcasts that would be great for them, and they could

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

buy this little book from you of, like, great podcast

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to apply on. You know? I don't know. Mhmm. Something you just do once.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

You know? Chap GPT it, you know, and then and then, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know, and then you could put it as part of the bundle as, like, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know, say, like, oh, this is normally, like, $700 or I don't know

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

what you're making, but, you know, so you can add it in. But I

Daniel Abendroth:

like that because, like, initially, I what comes to mind is, like, okay. What can

Daniel Abendroth:

I do that's worth a $1,000? It's like, okay. Well, I can, you know, show

Daniel Abendroth:

notes, Francis, blah blah blah. Stuff that's, like, adds a lot more to your play

Daniel Abendroth:

each episode. But the idea of having something that you create,

Daniel Abendroth:

like, my wife and I, so we're, like, business partners in this ordeal.

Daniel Abendroth:

Someone's been, like, on our to do list for years now is, like, a course

Daniel Abendroth:

on, like, how to start a podcast or whatever. But just, like, have some sort

Daniel Abendroth:

of, like, videos. Like, you put in a lot of effort upfront, but then

Daniel Abendroth:

it adds to the value of your service without

Daniel Abendroth:

adding work onto your plate for every client for every episode. I mean, as long

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

as it's something people want. Right. So you don't wanna go through all that effort.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I would, you know so before you do something I mean, check g g p

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

t, you know, so I'm not gonna take you long, but putting all the courses

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

together. But I would ask your stable of clients now. Is this something that

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you'd be interested in? If so, like, how much do you think it's worth?

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

You know? And just ask around and put it in some podcasting

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

meetup groups or something and ask people, like because, I mean, it would be people

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that are podcasting that would be interested in that. Right? So Right. You

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

get geared towards the people you're gonna edit shows for. So and maybe, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

if you do stuff that's, like, like, just say it's, like, it's, like, the real

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

estate, I'm just making it. You know? You work with realtors or

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

something. Then you look into all the, like, the podcast that would be for, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know, around real estate. And then maybe you find some good manager, and maybe it's

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

part of, like, helping them get on shows and it's already people that you already

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know and it's not a big deal. You know? So So we talked a little

Jennifer Longworth:

bit about the contract. So I get a contract. I figure

Jennifer Longworth:

out how much I'm charging, but I gotta get

Jennifer Longworth:

paid. Mhmm. How we get paid. Part of the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

contract should have your payment terms in there. When you're doing

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

something like a podcast, you are You

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

don't want that to happen. Right? No. It sucks. Yeah. That would suck. You don't

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

want that to happen. Right? No. It sucks. Yes. That would

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

suck. And, you know, there are terrible people out there that

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

do stuff like that. And I've got a a client that works

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

in a creative field, and she was using

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

PayPal and I think Venmo.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

And she would do the work, give them the deliverables, and they

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

would pay, but then they would take the payment back. Oh. And,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

after she delivered it. And so they were just scamming her. You know? And it

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

wasn't that she delivered something bad. It was just they so you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

wanna make sure that you when you're taking payment, it's through something that someone can't

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

take the payment back. Wow. I mean, it's it's different if you give them a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

refund, but, you know, they can contest with PayPal or something like that.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

So just be careful. Make sure that you get the payment up front if you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

can. If you're, like, put them on a retainer, if that's a possibility where they

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

just get maybe they get a, like, a monthly invoice from you that,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you know, you have an agreement, like, you're gonna do 4 shows a month or

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

3 shows or whatever it is. And if they say, like, I can't afford this

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

now, maybe you just take a partial payment every week. But

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

before you give them the deliverable, make sure that they make the payment

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

because once you give them the deliverable even if it's friends. Oh my god. They're,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, the worst. Oh. Because you, like, think, like, oh, I don't need a contract.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

It's my friend. You know? Yeah. I've been burned by that. How,

Daniel Abendroth:

like, ironclad does your contract need to be? Because one thing that I

Daniel Abendroth:

struggle with is having just like, I'm

Daniel Abendroth:

just turned off by the idea of, like, the legalese jargon and,

Daniel Abendroth:

like, client, hitherto known as party a blah

Daniel Abendroth:

blah blah agrees to the following term, but it's just like, ugh.

Daniel Abendroth:

This makes me cringe. It's like, I want something simple that just

Daniel Abendroth:

outlines what I need, but, also, I wanna make sure I'm protected. And I

Daniel Abendroth:

think we sat down to do something simple. But by the time we actually

Daniel Abendroth:

included, like, all the stuff we wanted to, it's, like, 8 pages. And now

Daniel Abendroth:

I'm, like, oh, I hate it. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm not a lawyer, so I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

can't really answer that. But I think Gordon Firemark, I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

think he has something on his website that may or maybe he

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

has, like, something you could purchase from him. I'm not sure. Wanted specifically

Jennifer Longworth:

for podcast editors. Oh, interesting. Oh. I

Jennifer Longworth:

need to reach out to him about that. Alright, Gordon. That's something

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

he should draft. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I would just think

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

about, like, you know, if you're not into, like, the whole legal thing, I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

mean, you want it to be something that they sign, that you both sign. I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

mean, that's something you can take, like, a, you know, put it through

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

DocuSign. So it's, you know, can be a, electronic signature.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but you could make some agreements through an email first

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and then draft it up and then put it into a document of some sort

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that they sign. So you can go kinda go back and forth with the terms,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

so it's not like they're inundated by this, like, horrible thing. You know? You can

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

make it more casual at first and then just document the whole thing and then

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

have them sign it. But, yeah, I'm sure that there's

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a gbt. I'm just taking a drink taking a

Jennifer Longworth:

drink. No. Just I would think about, like, all the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

deliverables that you do for clients, the areas where you, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you end up spending extra time, you know, like, is there a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

buffer of, like, how many redos that you do? Like, I I would just, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know, put in all the things where you feel like start to notice, like, oh

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

god. I feel like I'm going above and beyond here. And I'm just kinda go

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

back and look. Maybe look at some shows that you've editor and be like, oh

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

my god. Yeah. Oh, that was, you know what if there's, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

sounds like the guy's got a lawnmower going on one side and you gotta deal

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

with that? Or, like, one time I interviewed somebody who was in a coffee shop,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and I'm like, oh god, why are you in a coffee shop? There's, like, so

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

much clanging and, you know, then it was terrible. So maybe just

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

have clear terms of, like, hey, you gotta be in a quiet okay. You know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I don't know. Unless and just say, like, I gotta charge you extra. Yeah.

Daniel Abendroth:

We need to have an upcharge for people who use Blue Yetis. Yes.

Jennifer Longworth:

Thou shalt use a dynamic microphone or else I'm not editing your

Jennifer Longworth:

show. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

That's funny. So you had said freebies and incentives.

Jennifer Longworth:

How do we leverage freebies and incentives, Heather? Okay. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

freebies and incentives. So that would be like, you know, we wanna try to

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

get in new clients. So if we're looking for leads, you mentioned like, hey. How

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

do we get clients? You know? We we can have some freebies, which

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

would be like a free download kinda thing. And, again, you could use, you know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like well, maybe you don't wanna tell people how to edit it, or maybe you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

make it look like it's so complicated people want it.

Jennifer Longworth:

Look how hard this is. Don't you wanna hire me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

incentives would be like, hey. If you pay me for 3 months

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

worth of podcast upfront, I will give you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

this deal, or I will, you know, throw in this extra thing

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

or, you know, something. You could, you know, give them a little something to

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

make them sweeten the deal. That that's what that is. So it may

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

be it doesn't, like, cost you much extra, but it sweetens the deal for

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

them. Maybe if they wanna pay you in increments because every time

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you do a transaction, you know, there might be those transact extra transaction

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

fees. Say, like, hey. If you pay me in 6 months chunks,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

oh, you know, reduce this by this amount for for that, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know. That way you get the money upfront. Yeah. You can do things like that.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

And then freebies, another freebie thing is, like, you guys could

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

put on events where podcasters get to come

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

on to Zoom and, like, podcasters meet you and they all get

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to meet each other and, you know, this can be like a a networking group.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I mean, other people do that, and people love that kind of thing where they

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

get to network with other podcasters. So if if you start to be that person

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that brings them in, then they're like, oh, and then by the way I add

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

it, you know, and then, okay, now they're gonna think of you. So, you know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

there's you you can get creative with it. That's an interesting idea of, like,

Daniel Abendroth:

having almost kind of a podcast or mastermind or a meetup or something.

Daniel Abendroth:

It's, like, come together and share ideas or ask questions and

Daniel Abendroth:

get advice. I host 1 once a month.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You do it once a month. You can stream it. You

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

can also put on workshops. So, you know, again, maybe it's how to editor,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and then you just show them, hey. It's really you know, this is a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

of work, and then they'll wanna hire you. So I'm sending a note to

Daniel Abendroth:

my wife that we needed to, like, enter like, look at this. Yeah. Or

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

maybe it's why you need a podcast. Maybe that's better. Like Yeah. Do

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

a workshop on why you need a podcast, and then you can show them, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

what your clients are doing. Like, you can show, like, the different shows that

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you've been working on and how it's increased their sales or how

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

they've utilized it, how it's increased their

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

speaking. I don't know. Yeah. Whatever it's sent for them. Bryan's comment. We

Daniel Abendroth:

say it's for the audience, but we're the ones taking notes. Hey. I brought Heather

Jennifer Longworth:

on specifically because she called me out without knowing it at

Jennifer Longworth:

Podfest. So, of course, we had to find out for ourselves. You know, it was

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

really funny. I had somebody contact me after my my speech, and she

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

was not an editor. She was a podcaster, and she

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

said, I I had to contact my editor right away

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

after your presentation because I felt so bad about all

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

the things I've been asking for. Oh, wow. Oh, I love that.

Jennifer Longworth:

My biggest mistake lately that I'm fixing is being like,

Jennifer Longworth:

oh, yeah. I can do that for you. Yeah. But now I'm adding I can

Jennifer Longworth:

do that for you, and it costs this much more. Yeah. Yeah. You

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know? I had that with, like, one of my first clients. It was, like, it

Daniel Abendroth:

started out just editor, and it's, like, oh, I wanna start doing YouTube. Okay.

Daniel Abendroth:

Sure. Well, not got charged extra, but not enough cause I didn't know what I

Daniel Abendroth:

was doing. And I was like, hey. Could you, like, write a blur for the

Daniel Abendroth:

for each episode? Oh, yeah. That's not much work. I can do that. Blah blah

Daniel Abendroth:

blah. And then suddenly, I was spending 6 hours a week for a $100.

Daniel Abendroth:

It's just like, okay. This is not working out. So one of the other

Jennifer Longworth:

things you sent was look at your numbers and examine what went

Jennifer Longworth:

right and what went wrong, then make projections for the future. So

Jennifer Longworth:

I'm in a money class right now with our local chamber of commerce, and

Jennifer Longworth:

I'm learning that I really don't know anything about this stuff.

Jennifer Longworth:

So what are some basic how to look at your numbers and examine on

Jennifer Longworth:

that, you know, talk to me like I'm 5 type thing. Okay.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Hopefully, you know, you're keeping things in, like, QuickBooks or some kind of bookkeeping

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

software. Maybe you're not. Maybe you, hopefully, you're keeping at least, like, an Excel.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

No judgment if you're not keeping it at all. Hopefully, you got receipts and then

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you add it up, you know, for tax time. But if you can do it

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

on a monthly basis, then you can kinda see how things are

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

going. Take a client that you feel like there was, like, a lot of extra

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

work there and kind of examine. Like, maybe when you first start with a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

client, as much as I hate timing things, maybe you start timing things and

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

just see, like, how long is it taking you to do these things. I know

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

when I go to hire a contractor, every step that I'm gonna have them

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

do, I time myself doing that activity so I know

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

approximately how long it should take them? And then I can kind of figure

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

out by the hour that I'm paying them, or is it by the project? So,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

again, whenever you can pay by the project, I'd rather do that. So kind of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

examine each little piece and then go back and say, like, okay. What

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

were all the costs associated with me with this client

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

with this project? Did you have to buy, you know, new piece of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

software? Did you have to learn a new piece of software? Did you have to,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like you were talking about YouTube. Like, now you're now all of a sudden, you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

having to do these, like, your thumbnails, you had to get software that did

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that, and now it's taking extra time, like, all the extra little things,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and then figuring out, like, okay, if I did this, like, you can give

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

yourself an hourly rate or something, kind of look at and see, like, holy

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

crap. Did I only made, like, $5 an hour? Like, I mean, if you start

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to look at all the stuff that goes into it and then

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

educating yourself and granted, you're gonna have that knowledge for later, but still, it

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

takes up time. You know, it's like, all that stuff goes into it. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

look at all the time that you spent and then put a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

number attached to it, like an hourly rate or something. And just look look to

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

see, like, did I make any money off of this thing? Unless we're kind of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

going back and and looking, we we may kinda have a gut instinct

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

about it, but we may not know, like, how bad it was or maybe it

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

was better than we expected. But then that gives us some data that we

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

can use for the future when we go to price something. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

we can make a standard, like, spreadsheet and try to figure, like, okay. If I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

do show notes, I'm gonna charge this much. You know? And then but then

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

look and see, like, how long did it really take you to do those show

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

notes? Like, was it 5 manager, or was it, like, an hour? Do you

Daniel Abendroth:

have a tool that you use to track your time? You know, there's so many

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

tools online to do that. I mean, you could even use your phone. But, I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

mean, there's certain ones where you can, like, put in a client. I hate

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

timing things, so I I do too. But there's there's a lot of free

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

ones out there, and some of them have gone out of business. I don't even

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

wanna say what they are, but, like, I keep a lot of stuff in Notion.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Like, when I'm doing my podcast, like, everything is in there. So you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

could depending on where you organize your stuff for your client, there may be a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

timing tool. I don't know. What do you guys use to organize stuff for your

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

clients? I use Airtable. Okay. Do they have a timing thing in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

there? I wonder. I currently use RescueTime because

Daniel Abendroth:

I, like, tracks whatever software you're using. And so I kinda keep track of, like

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Right. Oh, you're watching YouTube versus now now you're in

Daniel Abendroth:

Reaper, so you're working blah blah blah. Mhmm. But it's just like it doesn't

Daniel Abendroth:

track per project, so I don't know because I know, like, how long I'm working

Daniel Abendroth:

and, like, being productive versus not. Mhmm. I used to use

Daniel Abendroth:

toggl, t oggl, and you could, like, start as a timer.

Daniel Abendroth:

So you put in, like, what I'm working on, you know, this client now,

Daniel Abendroth:

start. And when you're done, you can stop it, then you get a report. Like,

Daniel Abendroth:

my assistant uses that to keep track of whatever she's working on. Mhmm. And, like,

Daniel Abendroth:

it be a report and everything. But my problem is I always forget to, like,

Daniel Abendroth:

start and stop. And then I'm never, like, working on, like, one

Daniel Abendroth:

client, like, one per thing consistently. So it's, like, okay. I'll

Daniel Abendroth:

bring 3 shows into RX. Like, oh, I'm gonna work on

Daniel Abendroth:

this one. Like Mhmm. Get this process going while that's running. I'm gonna do this.

Daniel Abendroth:

And now it's just it may get convoluted. I need to, like

Daniel Abendroth:

well, I really need to, like, do better at tracking and, like, focus for, you

Daniel Abendroth:

know, a month and be diligent about tracking it and kinda see where I'm

Daniel Abendroth:

at, but it's just I don't. Yeah. I mean, at least when you first bring

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

on a client or something and see unless you have, like, an extra fee for,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, onboarding type stuff. But once you get in the groove of what it is

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

they're paying for, yeah, maybe time. I I know. I hate that too because I'm

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Mhmm. I'm a multitasker. I work on, like, a bunch of things. But you could

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

be working on, like, bringing in something that's, like, it's generating the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

transcript. So you can have that going, that time. Yeah. Is that still the time

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

for that? And then you could be working on email while that's still going and

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

or, you know, for another client and put that time. You could have double time.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I mean, it's still time. I mean Yeah. You still have to wait for it.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

One of the other things you had also with we've talked about hiring contractors,

Jennifer Longworth:

the difference between hiring contractors and actually hiring

Jennifer Longworth:

employees. So there's a huge difference, and you just made a

Jennifer Longworth:

face for those folks who are are listening later and can't see. I haven't made

Jennifer Longworth:

an epic face over that of, oh my goodness. Don't make the wrong

Jennifer Longworth:

decision here. With contractors, you know, it's gotta

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like make the smell test for what a contractor is. And so

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

there's the IRS has their own standards of what a contractor is, and then each

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

state might have, like, California is very strict.

Daniel Abendroth:

Mhmm. So you don't wanna you know, if you've got somebody working for you in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

California and they're doing things that the smell test is

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

more like an employee, then you better have them on payroll. The thing with the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

contractors, they had need to be invoicing you. They need to have their own

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

business separately. So, you know, it's like they invoice you.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

And with contractors, they should be using their own tools,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

making their own schedules. Like, there's, like, different parameters around

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that. You're not giving them a laptop. I mean, I I'm sure, like, you can

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

probably have them log in to your software. You know? I'm not saying that

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that's true for everybody. This is not tax advice.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

You know, make sure that they kind of fit the parameters of what a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

contractor is. It gets fuzzy in these creative worlds,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you know, I think people are probably acting more

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like employees than contractors, but, you know, I oftentimes

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

see, he'll go to a website and I'll see people on the website

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and it's like, this is my team. And I'm like, I thought they were supposed

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to be contractors. Now they're showing up as your team on your website.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Like, that looks like an employee to me. So I'd be careful

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

about being, on the Internet with that kind of stuff where you're showing,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, my team. And it's like, the IRS just does a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

quick Google and they see that, and they're like, wait a minute. You don't have

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

any payroll. What's going on here? Not like they're doing that, but, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

know, I would be afraid of that. You know? Mhmm. The thing with an employee

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

is that you have to pay them their tax, payroll tax.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

And so, you know, a lot of companies are trying to avoid payroll tax. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that's why the IRS is so strict about this. And in California,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

there's a lot of, like, employee protections and, like, they wanna make sure

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

everybody is okay, you know, paid correctly. And I'm not an expert in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

California. For an employee that, you know, they've got you bring them on,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you hire them, there might be a set, like, as amount of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

hours that you give them, they work in a certain

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

span of time, you know, like, from 9 to 5 or whatever it is

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that you have them work. But you can look at on the, you you know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

on the Internet and see, like, what is the parameters for, like, a

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

contractor versus an employee. So, yeah, I would just be very careful.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

But if you do do employees,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I definitely would use payroll software. Don't try

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to, like, do it yourself. I've seen people try to do payroll

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

themselves, and you don't wanna mess around with payroll taxes,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, no. Because you could find yourself in a world of hurt.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

So I use Gusto. I have an affiliate link. If you wanna use it, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

get, like, a $100 or $200. It depends on when they when you sign somebody

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

up. So Cool. Yeah. Feel free to share that. Yeah. We'll put it in the

Daniel Abendroth:

show notes. So if you anybody listening that wants to use that affiliate

Daniel Abendroth:

link or honestly find any links we talk about or links to

Daniel Abendroth:

work with or find more about Heather. Just check the show notes, podcast editors

Daniel Abendroth:

mastermind.com, and you'll find it all there. I use wave.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Uh-huh. Yeah. Waveapps.com. It's free except you Yeah. Like, the

Daniel Abendroth:

month what you pay is in transaction fees. Whenever somebody pays an invoice,

Daniel Abendroth:

then they take a little cup of that. Super easy to use, and they do

Daniel Abendroth:

offer payroll. I think it's $40 a month, and then it's, like,

Daniel Abendroth:

$6 per employee, they kinda do it all

Daniel Abendroth:

yourself, which is pretty nice. Never had to use it. I would imagine you could

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

set up your contractors through that too. And so they Yeah. You can file your

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

10.90 nines and everything through that. I did that 1 year, but it was

Daniel Abendroth:

really frustrating because, obviously, around tax time, they

Daniel Abendroth:

get really busy. And I made a mistake on the 10.99. Like, Like, hey. I

Daniel Abendroth:

need to do revision, and it took, like, weeks before they finally get around

Daniel Abendroth:

to it. And plus, like, you had to sign up for, like,

Daniel Abendroth:

their payroll service. So, like, you're paying the $40 plus $6 per

Daniel Abendroth:

person. And then after, like, that one year, it's like, you know what? I think

Daniel Abendroth:

I use, it's like, 10.99 through text something.

Daniel Abendroth:

Manager website, it's, like, $3 to file the 1099, so I said

Daniel Abendroth:

that. But if I was doing payroll and, like, that would

Daniel Abendroth:

totally, yeah, they can do the 10.99 filing and do all that

Daniel Abendroth:

for you. Yeah. I would definitely use a cheaper software for that. Yes.

Daniel Abendroth:

Made that mistake. 1 year, never again. I don't know if you ever listen to

Jennifer Longworth:

our show, but towards the end of our show, we like to draw a card

Jennifer Longworth:

from our pod decks. Oh. Deck of cards.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Okay. And has a random question on it. Now Okay.

Jennifer Longworth:

I don't have the pod decks, but Bryan does, and I made him draw a

Jennifer Longworth:

question before the show. He says, what's the

Jennifer Longworth:

best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Oh, best piece of advice I've ever been

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

given. Oh, okay. This is one,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

that I hold near and dear to me. I used

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to volunteer for Big Brothers Big Sisters. Oh.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

And I was matched with my little who

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

came from a home that was, like, poverty stricken. It was, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

something that I've never witnessed before. And

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

the mom, some of the things that she did,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

she wouldn't show up places. You know? It's like and I'm going through all this

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

effort to to be there for her little kid and, like, I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

got her kid, like, all these, like, calendars and cute things, and then, like, and,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, next time I'd come and they'd be in, like, in the garbage and, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

just like all these. And then I knew that the the mom

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

couldn't pay rent, like, she was and, like, they were maybe gonna get

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

evicted and, like, but then she got some money and then she went and bought

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

toys for the kids. And I was just like and I'm like, oh my god.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Like, she's making all these bad choices. And this was my own judgment of,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, what I thought what I would do differently. And I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

was putting that those what I would expect her to act like

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

onto her. And I learned from talking to my

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

advisor at Big Brothers Big Sisters that, like, you can't expect people

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

to behave in the way that you behave. Like, they

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

have a background that's totally different. They're in a totally different situation.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

There's all these different factors that are like, yeah. You're not walking in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

the same shoes as this person, so you can't expect her to act the same

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

way that you would. And that was a very good

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

lesson because now when people act a way that I'm

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, god. Why are they acting that way? I'm like, well, you know what? I

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

don't know their whole backstory. I can't, you know, have any judgment

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

against the way that they act. That was a a great lesson. That was

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

quite a while ago now that I think of it. It was 17 years ago

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

or something. So So for me recently, it's,

Jennifer Longworth:

it's yet to be determined if this was good advice. But, hey,

Jennifer Longworth:

my business is growing. And I was in another mastermind group. They're like, well, you

Jennifer Longworth:

have to raise your rates and hire people. Are you prepared to take on more

Jennifer Longworth:

stuff? You're gonna have to raise your rates and hire people if you're gonna grow.

Jennifer Longworth:

I'm like, okay. So we'll see what happens. So that's what I'm doing.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. If you wanna grow your business, unless you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

doing something that is passive where, you know, it's just you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

selling things while you sleep, if it's something like this where you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

producing something, yeah, you're gonna have to take on more people. And then

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you take on that role of being more of, like, a manager of

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

manager and and CEO, the visionary. Right? Until you

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

can until you can hire a manager. Right. So, you know, a lot of times

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

people get into business because they like to do something like editing or, you know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

this is, like, fun for them. And then when they grow, they

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

find, oh my god. Now I have to, like, take care of a staff, and

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

now I gotta be a I gotta be a manager. Like, I don't like that.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

I don't like hiring and firing and doing all these things. So sometimes

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

growth isn't made you know, it's not for everybody. Maybe it's just

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

like, you know, you just don't have one contractor. You know?

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Everybody doesn't have to grow, but just depends. And then also,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

when you do grow, that doesn't mean that you're not gonna have more money in

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

your pocket. That could mean that you actually are, like, you've got all these people

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

doing this stuff, but then if your profit margins

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

aren't a certain amount and your costs aren't a certain amount, you may end

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

up just taking home the same amount. Yeah. So it's wild that

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you can have way more clients, and you're making the same

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

amount in net profit. Yeah. For me, it's,

Daniel Abendroth:

imperfect action beats perfect inaction. Oh.

Daniel Abendroth:

Better to do something, like, not ideal than

Daniel Abendroth:

to wait and wait and wait to get it perfect, and then you end up

Daniel Abendroth:

never doing it. Yeah. Nice. I use that with my clients all the time. Now

Daniel Abendroth:

they're struggling to get started because they want it perfect. It's like, imperfect action

Daniel Abendroth:

will beat it every time. Yeah. Well, yeah. And, you know, I I don't know

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

why. I mean, the one that I thought of of don't expect people to act

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

the same way Mhmm. I was like, well, how does this even tie into this?

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

And I'm like, oh, wait a minute. That is, like, with scope creep. It's like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

exactly. Like, you're expecting somebody to act a certain way or, like, behave a certain

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

way. Like, well, these are how all my clients, you know, treat me or this

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

is what I've always done, you know, but then they act a different way

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

and it's like so that's why we gotta make sure that's we have

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

clear Boundaries. Boundaries. Well, Heather, if people

Jennifer Longworth:

wanna get in contact with you, the Radical Profit Fairy, as

Jennifer Longworth:

you, sometimes call yourself, What's the best

Jennifer Longworth:

way for us to connect with you? You can find me on

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Instagram @getradbiz. That's probably the easiest

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

way to find me because my last name is kind of a a hard

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

one to spell. I know that feeling. But,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

yeah, hit me up anywhere. You know, it's like, you know, you can find me

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

on LinkedIn. I'm barely on TikTok, but so

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. You can send me an email

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

at heather@getradbiz dotcom. Yeah. Just contact

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

me and, you know, if you are interested in tax, bookkeeping,

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

or any kind of other kind of services, like, I do profit

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

advising. So this type of thing that we're talking about today, like, looking

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

at your business and, like, drilling down, like, if you don't wanna look at the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

numbers, like, I will geek out on your numbers for you and look at the

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

data and we'll, you know, figure out some a good plan of attack for

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

you. Yeah. Love it. Well, Daniel, if someone wanted to be a

Jennifer Longworth:

guest on our show, what would they need to do? They simply have to go

Daniel Abendroth:

to podcasteditorsmastermind.com/beaguest, fill out the

Daniel Abendroth:

form, and we will get in touch with you. And this is perfect for anybody

Daniel Abendroth:

who, like Heather, is an expert and wants to share their knowledge and

Daniel Abendroth:

expertise, or like me and are struggling

Daniel Abendroth:

and want somebody to give them advice and expertise and to kind of soak it

Daniel Abendroth:

all in. So if you are struggling with something and you want to mastermind

Daniel Abendroth:

it and get advice from people that might have different experiences

Daniel Abendroth:

than you, we love doing that as well. So

Daniel Abendroth:

podcasteditorsmastermind.com/beaguest.

Jennifer Longworth:

Alright. And this has been Podcast Editors Mastermind. I've been your host, Jennifer

Jennifer Longworth:

Longworth. You can find me at BourbonBarrelPodcasting.com. My

Jennifer Longworth:

cohost this evening has been? Daniel Abendroth, and you could find me

Daniel Abendroth:

at RothMedia.Audio. And not joining us

Jennifer Longworth:

live, but he was in the chat, Bryan Entzminger with Top

Jennifer Longworth:

Tier Audio and also not joining us with Carrie Caulfield at

Jennifer Longworth:

Carrie.Land. Heather, again, thank you so much for joining

Jennifer Longworth:

us, and we'll keep in touch. Awesome. Thank you. Thank

Jennifer Longworth:

you.

Heather Zeitzwolfe:

So How much is that?

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