Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Laura and Xhafer discuss the moral alignments the B5 command staff. Meanwhile, Sinclair returns to B5 on a critical mission: to steal Babylon 4 and prevent the shadows from changing the course of history in Babylon 5, Season 3 Episode 16: War Without End Part 1.

Hello and welcome to Who Are You?

This is a Babylon five watch cast hosted by two former strangers.

Now, friends who are rewatching a favorite show from their childhood, Babylon five.

I'm Jafa.

And I'm Laura.

And Laura, I'm gonna ask you to explain our new cold open game alignments.

so today we're asking ourselves who are they?

About our main characters.

So today we're gonna talk about the command staff of Babylon five,

Mm-hmm.

and we're trying to figure out a little about who they are through

exploring the alignments concept.

I bet everyone who's listening to this podcast is explored alignments before.

Bit of a d and d nerd.

Yeah, that's what we're talking here.

there's some overlap there.

I'm gonna guess

Yeah.

but for, if you're a, a newbie to that alignment's idea, it's that

everybody falls into these brackets that are bounded by whether you're

lawful, neutral, or chaotic in your behaviors, and whether that is guided

by good neutrality or evil, right.

So we're gonna ask ourselves about the command staff.

Where do we feel like.

These people fall.

So we're looking at Sheridan, Ivanova, Garibaldi, and Franklin today.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm curious how you feel about it.

Jafa.

when I first, when we first talked about this, I'm all like,

oh, the, the command staff will.

They're all gonna be the same.

And then I actually thought about it and not a single one is the same.

I feel like my childhood reading would've put everyone

in the lawful category.

Right?

My, my childhood impression of our command staff was very like, these are good guys.

So they are lawful, right?

Yeah.

but I think that when you really look at them, it's not so simple.

All right.

You want to do, so we've got four Charact.

, I've got two lawful, or I've got one lawful, one neutral, and two chaotics,

Yeah.

and I've got two goods and two neutrals on the other side of it.

Yeah.

Where, where?

Where's your, where's the layout for you?

I feel like I have two lawful and two chaotics, but I could probably be

swayed into neutral on a couple of those.

Mm.

and then I feel like I have goods and neutral.

Nobody's really evil, but I think one person's readings could be, you know,

they're, I think they're interpreted diff differently now than they would've

been when this show was first on.

How about that?

Oh, for sure.

All right, so let's start with sh.

Yep.

Let's start with Sheridan.

I feel Sheridan's neutral.

Good.

Oh, okay.

Uh, He, he tends to lean lawful, but he's also done some

straight up like, fuck the laws, fuck the government shit that you

can't, you can't declare independence like that and be lawful, I feel.

Sure, sure.

I actually felt like Sheridan was a little more chaotic.

Good.

That was, he was one of my chaotic choices because, He's gonna do

some stuff later that's a little

Yeah,

chaotic.

I don't wanna get into spoiler town.

I'm not gonna do that here.

But also I was thinking about his dealing with Mr.

Morden,

Mm-hmm.

When he found out that Morden had been on the Icarus

Mm-hmm.

he kind of went unhinged.

He, he definitely got a little extra marshal there.

Yeah, that was a little more chaotic.

I didn't feel like it was, you know, evil or anything like that, but I

definitely think of him as loose canon.

Good.

Especially as time goes on, like when we first meet him in season two, I

don't think he's terribly chaotic.

I think he does lean more neutral or lawful,

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah, he definitely, he definitely comes and goes.

More chaotic.

More chaotic.

And then kind of by definition, he de facto goes lawful.

Yeah.

Okay.

but that's spoiler town, so I won't, I won't get into that too much.

Yeah.

but I, I accept a, a reading of neutral.

Good.

I totally believe that.

Ivanova I've got is lawful neutral.

Yeah.

Actually that's where I went with

Yeah, she is the definition of her way or the highway

Mm-hmm.

and lawful doesn't necessarily always mean government laws.

It can be a personal code

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah,

and adherence to it, and she definitely.

very firmly there.

for sure.

Like she has a very strong code.

She sticks to it.

We see that through like her feelings of cyco,

Mm-hmm.

That feeling doesn't change.

And you know, she's very, very lawful.

I'm thinking of the Ivanova, is God

Yeah.

Yeah.

her, her speech, she, she believes in her chain of command very strongly.

E even when it changes,

Mm-hmm.

when it is more a personal chain rather than the huge earth

force body that has become corrupted.

So, Yeah, totally.

Garabaldi, chaotic, neutral.

Agree.

He, he, he definitely cares more about getting the job

done than any rules or morality.

I feel like I, I mean, I've, I've dmd a number of tabletop games

and I've had characters where, where they're like, I'm chaotic.

Good.

And then their actions are like, mm.

I think you're chaotic, neutral, looking for an excuse.

Yeah.

that is Garabaldi.

I think Garabaldi thinks he's good,

Uhhuh.

And probably would recognize he's chaotic.

Good.

Maybe not.

He might go, eh, neutral maybe.

And is No, you're chaotic, neutral dude.

Yeah.

I think that in the original time period of the show, When this premiered,

when it was written, we were supposed to think of Garabaldi as chaotic.

Mm.

That's, he's the one that I believe we were supposed to see him as.

That sort of you know, the cop who plays by his own rules, but

always does what is right kind of

Mm-hmm.

And I think that we now can kind of read that differently, and sometimes the

things that he does are downright bad, so.

You could almost flip and, and see him as a little bit evil, but not really.

He is, he is neutral.

Yeah.

So Yeah.

that's, that's definitely my reading of Garibaldi too.

We nailed that one together.

Yeah.

Franklin, I've got listed as chaotic.

Good.

Okay.

Because he does, he does try to do things to save people's lives.

The things he does to save people's lives tend to be

incredibly misguided self center.

but he does it for that reason.

Always explicitly it is to save someone's life.

Even if he's being skeezy while he's doing it even if he's doing a ton of

space coke to do more of it you know, rules be damned I'm saving their life.

That's, that is Franklin to me.

Yeah.

Okay.

I agree with that.

Reading.

I actually kind of had pegged him as lawful good.

But the, like you said, going with his own personal laws and his own

personal code, which as you have acknowledged, sometimes very misguided

, but I think he's very true to that misguided code that he has sometimes.

No, that, that, that's, that's a fair reading for sure.

I can totally understand where that's coming from.

He's a bit too willy-nilly with it for me.

Like he's very principled and we've said that a ton.

And I know, but I've said that a ton.

But at the same time it's kind of just, it feels like he's not consistent,

Yeah.

like, like to me the consistency in his character comes

from his desire to save lives, which.

On the morality scale, not the action scale.

right.

So I am, but I think both readings are totally legit.

I think it's really easy with him to, to categorize that good part,

and then the rest of it is like, Hmm,

yeah.

Well cuz he is kind of all over the place though, so.

yeah.

But he is ultimately a doctor and a doctor who is driven by

like the actual Hippocratic

Mm-hmm.

you know, trying to fulfill that, which is a very

good oriented sort of philosophy,

Yeah,

but how you, how you enact, interact with that can be a wide scope.

for sure.

All right.

Well that's fun.

Yeah.

So I'm, . I'm curious, once we get.

Some of our other characters,

Yes.

have our like initial reads versus how we think about them for,

you know, 10 or 15 minutes together.

Yeah.

No, I'm, I'm looking forward to having this conversation again.

Uh, We'll do the ambassadors in a couple of weeks.

That'll be

And the ambassadors should be very fun.

Yeah.

All right.

So we have season three, episode 16, war without End Part one.

I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this out there.

Now, listener normally I, if you're watching the show with us

and you have not watched ahead,

if you might wanna watch a head one episode before you listen to this one.

Just

a big cliffhanger,

It's a big cliffhanger.

to do it.

Just watch it.

Yeah.

And I mean the, our part two won't come out until next week still.

But I can't promise that I'm not gonna spoil some of those big

twists that come in part two.

I, I know I'm, I'm probably gonna, they're very interlinked.

They're a unit like this.

Just think of it as one two hour episode of Babylon five that we just

have to split up into two podcasts.

At least they made it easy for us, unlike with the gathering

where we just kind of guessed.

This one is an easy, easy break.

yeah.

So with that said in advance I've now given myself spoily

permission for the next episode.

I will try to hold back, but I'm making no promises.

We're gonna open this one on Minbar and there's just so many crystals.

It's our first time seeing Minbar, actual Minbar.

Yeah.

And you're right, there's, there's, it's Crystal City.

They've all got flared bases and we see the Hall of Justice from super

friends surrounded by waterfalls.

It's a very cool building.

so much cgi.

Very different from a Sonari Prime.

Cgi.

uh, Especially the Centura Prime.

C g i.

We get this episode,

Whew.

We'll get there.

That's at the end.

All right.

Uh,

. Laura: in Spoily town.

I don't think anyone's watching the episode as we talk about it,

I, please God, hope no I hope not

We have not tried to time this for that ever.

Yeah, no.

We get a mysterious hooded ranger who's walking down a hallway.

Oh, they say until Zah, we know who this is.

oh.

Well, I thought, you know, if we get a few minutes of like,

oh, it's some gun hood, but,

Yeah.

Uh, It's, I mean, even like when this was airing on TV like Sinclair and before

were all over the ads for this episode.

Oh Yeah.

Yeah.

Like there was no mistaking what this was gonna be about.

So,

We gotta, we gotta put the goods out front.

Mm-hmm.

and well, we, sure enough, the hoods revealed it's Sinclair

and there's a letter that's been waiting for him for over 900 years.

Ooh, spooky

He left it, but how did he know you were going to be here?

Hmm.

I love it.

I I love it.

On this day at this time, he knew you'd be walking down this hallway.

Yeah.

He left a note that said, at this time, get this dude.

He'll be there.

It gets spookier because in, in CNC on Babylon five, we've started

picking up a gret call from Sector 14.

dun, dun, dun on.

Yeah.

Sector 14.

Where what happened again?

Babylon four was built in sector 14.

that's right.

Hmm.

Mysterious

But even more Mysterious

is that this stress dress call is coming from Ivanova.

Very un mistakenly.

Y Well, I thought it was super obvious listening

to it, and then everyone's all like, the computer's confirmed.

It's your voice and it's all like, , I guess she never listens to her own

podcast or anything, like she doesn't know what her own voice sounds like.

Well, maybe they're concerned about deep fake.

Oh, true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they had to run the analysis and make sure Yeah.

Yeah.

It's actually a plot point in Orville,

oh yeah.

like culturally, they, one of the, the races is using deep fake stuff

to like, fuck with political campaigns and it's just an accepted part of the.

Hmm

Fun storyline if you haven't watched Torville.

Anyways,

that's how we go to theme.

yep.

Sinclair says goodbye to rathe without saying goodbye, but it's

very much a, it's been great.

Thank you so much for being such a good, good dude to me.

Like it's the kind of thing you say when you don't think you're gonna see someone.

yeah.

Weird.

Why would he feel that way?

Rathe here is very like, I don't wanna say subservient to Sinclair,

Mm.

but like I had to like read about it and remember that

Rathe is on the gray council.

Oh

This is a dude we've seen before who's like helped with stuff.

He definitely referred to Dylan And said, I, I do what she wants me to do.

Basically

And so it was just kinda like, he's like really like, oh, we

gotta make sure Sinclair's happy.

And it's just like, is he just being like a polite host?

? Laura: Yeah, he's very deferential.

Yeah.

A lon pops out and says some cryptic shit.

yeah, as they do didn't love This for one's voice, by the way.

Just

Kash.

I mean, isn't the act not like the character, but the.

. Laura: Yeah.

That's his voice.

That's his voice.

I think he's doing a slightly different voice, but yes.

Yeah.

I think they, they must have put some effects on the other

kashas voice that made it better.

Mm.

I didn't, I didn't vibe with this voice at all.

It didn't seem very VO on to me.

Mm-hmm.

. Over in the war room, Ivanova plays the call again and garal

deposits that the wonky time shit means it's from the future.

Well, GU Baldy has had some visions of his own from the possible future

Mm-hmm.

back in season one when he went to Babylon four.

So I think he might be concerned that these two things are connected

based on what he observed in

Yes.

Now he confirms that that was a flash forward here when

we watched Babylon squared.

The.

. I had thought it was a flash forward, but when they talk about it in that episode,

I was under the impression it was a flash back to the Mars riots and I thought I

had had it wrong this whole time, but it ends up I had it right the whole time

and probably because I had forgotten that they offer this kind of like, I

dunno if it's a correction or something.

It's just a very quick confirmation of like, Hey, this is what

you were seeing is the possible future.

There was a fun jms note on this though, that the reason that they wore

the tactical gear in that scene when they filmed it back in season one is because he

already had the uniformed change planned as part of the Earth Force split, which

was also already plotted by that point.

Okay.

And so he made sure to put them in neutral uniforms

to not spoil the new uniform.

Surprise.

Yeah.

We gotta put 'em in the SWAT gear so we don't,

Mm-hmm.

off the other stuff.

That's, I love it.

That's the play in the long game that's thinking about it.

He said that he had this idea for this specific story and

three parter his far back as 1984.

Dang,

He had been ruminating it on over a decade before it finally got to air.

Yeah.

That's a real good feeling when you finally get something that's been

germinating in your brain a long time and give it life in some way.

yeah.

that's, I'm very satisfied for him.

Mm-hmm.

Um, Garib, Baldi wants to go there.

He wants to go check out Sector 14 and see what's.

and you know, Sheridan's like, fine, you guys have more experience

with the Babylon four than I do.

Go for it.

You know,

Gu Baldi.

You're the obvious choice, which is why I'm going to send you right now.

By yourself though.

That's a weird choice.

see if that bites us in the ass later.

Yeah.

Sinclair comes through space, tsa and is greeted by Zach just as Garabaldi

leaves two ships passing in the night.

Mm-hmm.

. Sinclair looks very beatific here.

We've definitely given him the like Saint Lee treatment.

Yeah, for sure.

Uh, Zach has like a fanboy moment,

Uhhuh, . It's very cute.

which tracks knowing that he was a fan of the.

Mm-hmm.

was trying to get on, and so he's like, oh, I

transferred right before you left.

You know, like all this stuff.

And it's just like, oh, that's probably him actually geeking out a

little from really enjoying this show.

your real inner feelings.

It's like, yay.

I finally get to work with this person I was trying to work with all along.

Yeah, that's fun.

Lanier comes to get Len, who also has a note waiting for her.

That makes me realize I've been spelling her name wrong in my

notes for almost two years.

Oh, really?

How.

Just confirm for me how we're supposed to be spelling it.

It has two ends.

I always use one in my notes.

But to be honest, it's just kind of shorthand.

Like if I look at the action figure of hers up on my wall, it

does have the two ends and also,

been using the two Ns, but I'll tell You who I get wrong.

I get Zach wrong every time

get Z.

You spell Zack with a K instead of an H.

I thought.

I thought it was supposed to be with a K, and I'm spelling it with an

Oh, I I always spell it with an H.

I might be doing it wrong.

know.

I don't know.

Now I'm, now I'm worried

Yeah.

Oh, well

A another one that's tough for me is a vva because of all the

repeated letters, but I think that's just like my little bit of dyslexia

just kicking me in the butt every time.

I invert the A and the O sometimes, and I don't know why I do that.

Like the A in the middle and the O in the middle.

I get the A at the end, right?

Anyways Dalen runs to the war room to grab everyone as Sinclair walks in.

And thanks Sheridan for the great job.

He's done looking after Babbel on five.

Uh Huh.

Nice little

talking about Babylon five.

but he is talking about Babylon five

Yeah, it's.

Garabaldi calls in to let them know that Epsilon three is the source of the rift.

And we cut to Atheros and Atheros at the Great Machine.

I love Zs and Zs.

I could just sit and listen to a room full of Zs talking to

Zs and be a very happy person.

I just have the biggest smile on my face,

It's fun.

Uh, Lennon crew head to the white.

And we get an exchange that shows us just how Lon likes

Sinclair has become very mystical.

Vlan, like,

He's just speaking in riddles, you know, like the kind of cryptic stuff.

Okay.

Because everybody's been talking about how Mbar like he is.

yes.

yeah, it can be two things.

It's a bit of both.

I mean, he's definitely, like, he speaks in riddles.

He's doing the whole puzzley thing.

, Laura: Mm-hmm.

it's appreciated.

Yeah.

I wonder If he's been hanging with that.

I wonder how many Volans are on Mbar now that we're

well, if we wanna jump ahead a bit to the end of episode two

two

and the encounter suit, I don't know if you noticed, is the same.

That is the one we see on Mbar.

Yeah, I did . Notice that

so that that's on purpose.

That's the same vo.

Oh, okay.

So we're saying that at least this one has been there for a thousand years.

Presumably also a second.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Right.

but with Kosh, when he was in the last episode, did say that

he'd gotten used to being alive.

Kosh definitely knew.

The stuff that happens.

Yeah.

Knew these guys.

. Laura: Yeah.

way.

That's also confirmed by jms.

So Kosh was around back

Volin lifespan, at least a thousand years,

Well, more than, yeah.

yeah.

Okay.

Garabaldi gets the signal from the hole in time, and we get to actually

view the video of Ivan's distress.

Call from the shadows attacking the station.

Does this hurt your heart a little bit?

Does it, does it make you sad?

I, I know how this ends, so, no.

I,

Maybe the first time it did, maybe, maybe the first time.

I don't, I don't remember the first time I watched this episode,

We haven't seen Ivanova have this range of emotions

really, like she is banged up.

She's got a head wound.

She is desperate.

and she is afraid, and I don't know that we've seen this level of fear from her.

I think we've seen a little bit of fear in, especially when dealing with Cycore,

Yeah.

but it's very controlled.

It's very under the surface, and this everything is out.

Yeah.

The closest we've seen to her freaking out like this was when she

was having the dreams about her mom.

yeah.

But you know, she's, she's clearly afraid for.

Every innocent person on this

Mm-hmm.

A little bit for her own life, but I, I feel like she's

afraid for the others, you know, they're trying to get them out.

Garabaldi has rigged the reactor, you know, like it is a desperate situation.

Dylan gets everyone together on the White Star for some exposition.

We get shown a video of the shadows destroying the Mbar station.

That was their main forward base.

And then we get shown getting replaced by Babylon.

Four.

Yeah, this has been very secret and it's

mostly damaged footage, right?

Like we don't have anything left of

this and, and Babylon four certainly did not make it.

Yes, it was per JM S'S notes, Babylon five s or Babylon four.

Survived the war but was in such bad shape.

It did not . Last much.

Yeah.

So we can't have it last too long cuz we'd have historical records of it and

then things would be weird.

Mm-hmm.

timey stuff gets a little weird.

Sinclair reminds us from Babylon squared.

We never did find out who was taking the station for what?

Just that Zs said it was for a big war.

Uhhuh.

So surprise it us.

We're on our way to do the thing . Right now.

Sheridan's like, I'm DB Cooper

No, it's Tommy Waso anyways so they have to take Babylon four back to save Babylon

five because if Babylon four doesn't go back enough, shadow ships survive where

they will go on the offensive in a couple of days in response to the VLAN attack,

And they'll have enough ships to just swoop in and take out Babylon

five right at the start of the war.

yeah.

back in when we were in the war room, Marcus mentioned that there

hadn't been any shadow attacks anywhere for three whole days.

So it's like they're waiting for something

Mm-hmm.

Sheridan reluctantly approves the plan.

Atheros arrives and is just the most atheros.

is like,

there's like an incoming package from Epsilon three that's just like,

a space coffin, full of Zs.

We flashback to Babylon squared and Sinclair let Riss know

not to accidentally change his past.

It's like you're gonna see past me.

Don't fuck it up.

He says he's good at doings, not understandings.

Mm.

. This we know.

We

got, yeah, he's got a list of things not to say,

like calling them the one

Mm-hmm.

Sinclair tells Sheridan he needs a favor, which is to tell

Garabaldi to go back to the station and don't mention that Sinclair's there.

Yeah.

This is sad too.

We see Sinclair flash forward Sinclair's flash forwards from Babylon

squared with him and Garabaldi defending Babylon five before it's destroyed.

Um, So I guess the implication here is if this mission does not go well, that,

We go back and

then Sinclair goes back to Babylon five with everyone

else to defend the station.

Uhhuh.

Despite him feeling otherwise,

Yeah.

Yeah.

And Garabaldi is gonna Go

out in a blaze of glory.

If that happens.

We, we know that gab, nobody's gonna make it.

But

yeah,

Particularly we see a scene depicting probably Garabaldi dying.

yeah.

They all get temporal anchors to keep them stuck in time

when they go through the rift.

, Laura: Mm-hmm.

. , they're very important.

they're very important.

Atheros stresses this many times.

The reason that they didn't need them before is if you were wondering

this, Sinclair and Garabaldi did not time travel in Babylon squared.

That's true.

Yeah.

were in their time the entire time.

It is the station that came.

. Laura: Mm-hmm.

. Mm.

But we don't see a bunch of people on Babylon four when it jumps forward.

We didn't see all of them disappearing.

, which they all should have been going through this thing without

the temporal anchor, but maybe it wasn't enough time to warrant because

it's only two years for them as opposed to the six were going back.

Not really explained, not really ever going to be . So,

in Babylon squared.

They did say that people were experiencing things like,

The flashes.

Yeah.

yeah, the flashes, which maybe you could in interpret that

as them coming unstuck a little bit.

But nobody gets like Sinclair Aging kind of effects.

Yeah.

And they don't get that.

And then, well, they say you have to do it more than once for that.

For the aging.

For the aging.

but no one gets the, uh, Sheridan trips through

yeah,

actual trips through time where they vanish from the current timeline.

yeah, yeah,

That happens soon in this episode.

So spoilers.

So we go

Into the Rift.

uh, I noticed that as we are traveling on the white star, that uh, Sheridan and

Lynn are kind of slightly holding hands

and Sinclair catches it and he's smiling,

Yep.

He knows.

Mm-hmm.

, it's very, dad approves

um, Garibaldi makes it back to be five and Zach's like,

oh yeah, you just missed Sinclair.

And he's like, what the actual fuck

Yeah.

He spills the beans real big.

He just steps right in it.

ever done

My, best friend shows up and doesn't say Hi, what the hell?

Yeah.

but Garibaldi is not a total idiot.

He realizes that, okay, he must have left something for me somewhere, and he goes

off to his quarters looking for a message.

Yep.

And it's a password protected message waiting for him, and

he tries a bunch of passwords,

Uhhuh?

some just people's names.

You know, he tries his normal peek.

. Laura: Yeah.

But the last three he tries before he gets it are socks, vasin,

and Zip, which is a reference to their conversation traveling to Babylon.

Four

Mm-hmm.

Chef's Kiss.

Beautiful.

He does get it on the next try though, which is Hello Old Friend,

which is how Sinclair started the last message that he had sent,

Yeah.

and he tells him, he knows he won't be returning from his expedition

to Babylon four at this point.

, just like I, this is a one-way trip for me, and it would've been

a one-way trip for you, buddy.

Right.

And I didn't want that for you, so that's very nice of him.

On the White Star, they are in the rift.

They are scanning for shadows and we find some of those little shadow fiery ships

They've got the enterprise's warp core and they're gonna throw

it at the station to blow it up.

Yep.

White star is not gonna let that

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

The white star jumps in, blows up these little shadow fighters.

None of the big ships are here and they uh, they fire on the white star.

And the white star just shrugs it off now.

Uhhuh,

it's learning.

yeah.

Lanier tells us about the lon organic armor that learns and adapts

Mm-hmm.

very bo.

It is very boggy.

I didn't think about that at first.

Here for it,

Yeah.

but, but very boggy.

Anyways, they blow up this Warp Corps and some energy coming out

of it hits Sheridan's anchors and he becomes unstuck in time.

Oh, that's bad.

Zary said that would be bad.

It is bad as we find out.

Sinclair is just all like, fuck it.

I'm the captain now.

Yeah,

sits in the

takes it back.

He's like, well, this is mine now.

I never liked writing shotgun, so he just jumps in the chair and

uh, is like, we're getting this done.

And Sheridan ends up in the future being beat up by Emperor Orlando's guards.

Yeah.

It's old Londo again.

I love when we see old

It's old Lando.

It's old Lando for the first time.

I, I think we've seen the vision of old Lando choking to death, right?

Oh, you're right.

We've, we've, I think they gave us a little bit with him and

Kar choking each other before,

Yeah.

But I think

in season one.

Yeah.

So

I think it hasn't been much,

we getting more of it in the movie.

In the beginning.

, Laura: Okay.

which we'll watch after season four, I think,

Okay.

is we're gonna watch all those.

They did like a summer of Babylon, five movies in between season four and five and

Right.

So we'll watch.

We'll watch it then as part of that

Okay.

anyways Sinclair reassures Dilen that Sheridan will be okay.

He's like, look, I know what's gonna happen at this point,

so don't worry about him.

Yeah.

in the future, Lando tells us that Sheridan won the war but didn't clean up

the mess and the allies of the shadows of laid waste to Centri Prime is retribution.

There were people really upset about this on the internet.

Oh, do

back in the day.

They're like, you, you ruined the series.

You told us that the good guys win.

He's all like, yeah, you think I'm gonna spend a multi-year arc on of that?

Bummer of an ending.

Of course, the good guys win.

Duh

We actually talked about this after we watched both episodes.

It was like, well, I was like, well, you know, I guess it's a spoiler that we're

gonna beat the shadows, but at this time in tv, like you didn't set up an arc like

this and have it be really dark.

Like there might be shows right now that would have some darkness and

whatever, but certainly in the nineties you didn't make a TV show like this.

We all knew that was gonna.

to the big reveal is that, oh No.

beating the bad guys is not the solution.

It's not the end of everything.

That was how TV was set up was like, you get the bad guys

defeated and happily ever after

in the nineties, a a lot of it, especially before the nineties too.

So this big reveal is a big reveal to me, it's.

Perfect.

Just because we beat the . Shadows.

Yeah.

Zs uh, says the saddest . Shit here.

. Uh, uh, Just a, a life of servitude.

He's happy with it though.

He's not, he specifically says that he's sad

I thought he said that.

He liked the consistency or something about that?

I believe his words were, at least my life has symmetry in its sadness.

Well, the in, in, in its sadness was implied from the

previous sentence, but yes,

It sounded like that symmetry was important to him.

oh, well, poor Atheros.

Nobody listens to Atheros.

Ivanova and Marcus go to secure their half of the hallway, Sinclair

Dalen head off to their part of the plan, and that's end credits to be continued.

Yeah, big cliffhanger.

This is why you should have watched the two together.

I hope listener

that was a lot of stuff in there.

it's a ton of.

what, what are your thoughts about that Jafa

I fucking love this episode.

I think I said when we first.

May, maybe even when, before we even record an episode, maybe in

like our very first conversation.

I think I said that Babylon five has my favorite three

parter in all of television.

This is it.

Yeah.

This is part two.

It's so good.

My best friend has been over today when I was doing notes for this episode, and I'm

a, I explained just the, the play concept.

It's like, oh, part one was two seasons ago.

He's like, what?

It's like, it's a time travel episode.

He's like, oh,

, Laura: Yeah,

like, it's so good.

The, just the achievement in writing to be able to put this together.

Especially with what's coming in the next episode, because we haven't really gone

back like this is back to the future.

Part one well actually be and squared is back to the future part one.

This is kind of a little bit more of that.

The next one is where we get into the back to the future part two territory

where there's multiple versions of our characters running around.

Uh, The, the versions from Babylon squared and the the current.

Listener, if you haven't watched it yet I assume you, Gabriel able put

together that that was gonna happen and that's not a spoiler . it's,

us this is what's gonna

It's so good.

Like everything fits perfectly.

Every piece, every line of dialogue.

There's not a second was.

They could have named this episode without B plots instead of war without End.

Like it's super concise.

Um, There's actually, I, I did read a little bit from j m s on stuff

after the next one had come out.

We had considered briefly making it a three parter instead of a

two-parter because he felt it was still very packed, but he didn't

think the material warranted a three.

And then it would've been a four part overall.

He's like, so then I have to add a B plot and I don't want to add a B plot to this,

Yeah.

I get that.

I, I think a b plot would just be distracting in this.

I think everything is as it should be.

This is the most exciting writing that I had.

Seen at the time, you know, I don't think, I don't think any of the Star Trek series

attempted anything this complicated.

Maybe Voyager year of hell,

oh

yeah.

don't, I'll be honest, I don't remember that well, and I'm

not there in my Voyager rewatch.

I, so I haven't seen it in over a decade at this point.

I mean

Year of Hell is good.

I mean, it's, it's amazing.

Two-parter series, but it doesn't have that like, Third part element

to it, to me, like, because these episodes are all so intertwined, even though

one happened way back in season one.

Yeah.

The, the, just to have it to be continued from two seasons ago

is obs is just absolutely insane.

I don't know of another show that would even attempt this or think considerate

yeah,

this form.

It's so good, it's so daring.

It's just fucking love this episode.

Babylon squared was such a self-contained episode.

in that there was, there were a few little mysteries that

were like, huh, that's weird.

But it didn't leave you with a sense that something.

Really big was unresolved.

Like you could, you could go up to this right up until this episode

and feel like Babylon squared, Babylon four, totally over.

You would feel that way if you were watching this for the first time,

Something happened with Babylon four.

There's some mysteries.

Well, eh, you know, and it's just like to just do it so succinctly to do it so well.

Yeah.

it's a testament to JM S's ability to story plot.

It's fantastic.

I fucking love this episode.

I fucking love the next episode.

I loved Babbel on Squared.

two Babylon fours.

I don't know what's appropriate.

It's fucking great.

I love this episode.

those little things that were left in Babylon squared.

It was like when you get to this episode.

you realize they were all intentional.

Sometimes we just do things and we may use it later and we may not.

And, and every single one of

Mm-hmm.

just brilliant.

I love it.

I mean you know, as far as ratings, I've gotta give it the Babylon

five because of how well it ties in together, but you're right.

A Babylon four would be fun to save just because it's Bebble on four

Yeah,

But this a five out of five For me.

a hundred percent

Okay, so we're gonna wrap that next time.

What is the episode description

For part

Without End Part two?

Say?

Sheridan moves through time experiencing his future.

Sinclair leads the effort to transport Babylon four back in time to the

first battle with the shadows.

Yeah.

Concise.

It was all obvious from the episode

Yeah, for sure.

So we'll talk about that more next week.

But before then, gotta say thank you to Jeremy Siegel.

Thanks.

I love our theme song and you made it for us.

You can find more of Jeremy's music at Jeremy Siegel 40 two.bandcamp.com.

Hey, Jeremy is doing a thing and I'm not sure if it's gonna be

on his band camp or not, but I know that they're gonna be on Spotify.

He's doing a challenge for himself this year.

Where he is releasing one album per month.

And so the January album, you know, we're recording this before

this episode's gonna come out.

His January album dropped I think like last week.

So,

Okay.

um, Next time I will look up for sure how you can get to that on Spotify.

I'm pretty sure it's, it's Spotify,

I am gonna

but maybe it's also on the band camp.

I, literally have Spotify open right now.

Yeah, so I think the, the one that dropped for January

is under nuclear Jaguar band.

That's what he's got on Instagram.

Ah, okay.

Yep.

They have an album release called January.

so everybody should check that out.

Get a little more Jeremy Segel.

Oh yeah.

I will definitely listen to this soon.

Speaking of Instagram, we wanna thank Angry Duck Time Machine

who's on Instagram for our podcast

Mm-hmm.

. Thank you Aaron for editing our podcast and ensuring it's

released on a weekly basis.

We appreciate the shit audio.

And thank you to you, the listener, for being here.

We're glad you're here with us for War Without End Parts one and part two.

Yep.

We'll see you next week for part two.

If you gotta talk about part one, hop on our discord.

Send us an email.

Who are you b5@gmail.com.

Yep.

And you can find us on Facebook, sometimes on Twitter.

But maybe try the Facebook or email first

All right, see you next week.

Internet