Erin and Aaron welcomed on guest Eliza Billingham, The Inlander’s City Hall reporter, for an hour of Journos on Journos, interviewing each other about some of the biggest stories of the week: Billingham’s piece on Community Court and Sellers’ story on a City Council resolution in solidarity with undocumented immigrants, recommitting the city to following state law. Relevant reading linked below!

• Spokane’s Community Court handles most nonviolent offenses downtown. While arrests increase, founders say improving quality of life is “not an easy fix.” – Eliza Billingham, The Inlander.
• Solidarity, if not sanctuary: The Spokane City Council showed their solidarity with the immigrant community by promising to continue to follow state law, but opposition feared it created a false sense of security. – Erin Sellers, RANGE

Hey, it's Erin.

2

This week Luke and Val were out

doing boring official stuff, so

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Hedge and I had to hold it down.

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Luckily, we got Inlander reporter

Eliza Billingham to come talk

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about her story on community court.

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Hedge also interviewed me about

my coverage of the city hall

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meeting, which was the most

well attended in recent memory.

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Alright, buckle up and tune in.

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Hi, you're listening to

KYRS Medical Expo KAN.

10

This is Free Range, a co

production of KYRS and Range Media.

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If you can't tell, uh, our usual

host, Luke Baumgarten, who runs

12

the board, is not here today.

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So you might have gotten a little

bit of a false start while I was

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trying to figure out how to run it.

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This is the most beautiful false start.

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Alright, so since the very beginning

of Free Range, we have been promising

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to interview reporters from other

outlets about their coverage and get

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you the behind the scenes stories

behind some of Spokane's biggest news.

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We have sort of failed on that front so

far because we are bad at scheduling.

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But today, we're finally going to deliver.

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Kind of like Hollywood's Actors on

Actors, Aaron Hedge and I are gonna do

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something that, in my head, I've been

calling Journos on Journos, which,

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now that I say it out loud, is not as

cool as I thought it was going to be.

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But we are joined today by The Inlander's

Eliza Billingham, a former food reporter

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and newly minted City Hall reporter,

who just came out with a really big

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story on Spokane's community court.

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We're gonna pay homage to her old beat

by grilling her on the piece, get it?

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Oh, good.

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Very good.

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You wanna say hi, Liza?

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What's up, guys?

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It's great to be here.

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I, uh, I do feel a little bit

like a Hollywood actor right now.

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It's pretty fun.

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You're gonna be, I mean, you

already are Spokane famous,

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but maybe more Spokane famous.

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Oh my goodness gracious.

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After we talk to Eliza, I'm going to ask

settlers about their experience at City

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Hall on Monday, which saw the biggest

attendance in anyone's memory because the

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council passed a resolution affirming its

support for local migrant communities in

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the face of the Trump administration's

crackdown on undocumented people.

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But first, I'm going to

let Erin take it away.

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Start asking Eliza

questions about her story.

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Okay, Eliza Community

court give us the basics.

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What is it?

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How does it work?

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Great.

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Um, this is one of Spokane's five

therapeutic courts and therapeutic

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courts according to Sarah Thompson who

I spoke to who's in charge of, uh, all

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five therapeutic courts in Spokane.

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They're part of the Municipal Court,

which deals with, um, non violent

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crimes, simple and gross misdemeanors.

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Um, and so this is your

lowest level court.

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Bump up a level would go to district.

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Bump up another would

go to superior court.

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Okay.

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But this is municipal court.

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Under that umbrella, Um,

there are, there's a typical

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court that you would expect.

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There are five therapeutic courts.

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One of them is community court.

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And this is a court that

deals with nonviolent crimes

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that are downtown Spokane.

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And including also a little bit

of the, uh, hospital campuses

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on the lower South Hill.

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And instead of giving cookie cutter,

Sentences to people who receive

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citations for things like pedestrian

interference, um, unlawful camping,

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trespassing, things of that nature.

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They try to individualize

care, uh, for each person.

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And I, I say care because they, they

do, um, They give sets of, uh, I like

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to call them rules, um, restrictions,

technically they're called stipulations,

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um, saying you have to do this, this,

and this to fulfill, uh, your obligation.

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Um, and then they, gosh, this is

such a long explanation, but it's

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held in the public library so

that Every Monday morning at 10 a.

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m.

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Oh my gosh, right here, right here.

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Right here at Community Court.

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I'm sorry, this is a

very long winded answer.

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Monday, 10 a.

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m.,

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Community Court in Event Room B and

in Event Room A there's so many uh,

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maybe A dozen to 15 community resources

from housing to IDs to, uh, SNAP

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and EBT, um, so that the judge at

community court can say, Hey, you have

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to enter substance use counseling.

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And then that person can go straight.

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over to the, to event room A and find a

way to get connected with that counseling.

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So I'm sorry, that was a very long

answer, um, but basically it's

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trying to connect people to treatment

instead of putting them in jail as

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a way to improve quality of life for

themselves and all of the downtown area.

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So it's sort of like saying, okay.

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You committed a crime, but there was like

mitigating factors to that, like maybe you

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committed a crime because you had no other

place to sleep, so instead of throwing

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you in jail, we're gonna try to get you

connected to other resources that might

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ensure you don't commit that crime again?

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Absolutely.

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I kept hearing people saying,

we're trying to get at the why.

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We're trying to get at the why people

are committing these crimes, and getting

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them to a place where they won't feel

The need to trespass or camp illegally

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somewhere, something like that.

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And it seems like, there was this one

really interesting story in your piece.

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This guy, uh, Zarin Price, who was

cited for trespassing after he'd

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hopped a fence to charge his phone.

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Right, just a very basic need that

everybody, like, I have to charge

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my phone too, but I have access

to an indoor, you know, outlet.

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And it sounds like this guy didn't,

and he just needed to charge his phone.

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Um, So, and it, does, does it seem like,

I don't know, it just seems like the

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resources and incentives that they're

providing um, in following these, and,

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and the behavior changes that, that

the orders uh, necessitate, like, do

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they feel like that's gonna result

in like, better rates of recidivism?

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It was really interesting.

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When I asked about measuring

recidivism rates, um, at first I

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asked, um, The city prosecutor,

David Kling, who is, uh, in charge

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of representing the city's interests

in public safety and accountability.

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And he mentioned, um, there, there,

uh, has, well, he mentioned that, um,

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For example, someone who's cited for

trespassing to charge their phone.

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If they do that again, one, that's

a pretty easy charge to rack up.

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And, and two, So recidivism rates

are this, this idea of the likelihood

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of, of someone re offending,

re committing a similar crime.

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Yeah, thanks for defining it.

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Absolutely, no.

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Um, and, and he said, maybe we

shouldn't be, well, I don't want to

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put words in his mouth, but he, he

mentioned someone hopping a fence to

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charge their phone again, doing that

again, maybe because they don't have

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anywhere else to charge their phone.

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Um, Is that something, is, is that

recidivism rate as weighty as, say,

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the recidivism rate for, um, someone

committing sexual assault or someone,

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um, Committing a higher level crime.

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And so when I talked to Francis Adewale,

who is a public defender, he said, we try

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to measure, we being the municipal court,

I'm so sorry, we the community court,

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try to measure success by how many people

can we keep out of jail for six months.

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That was their metric.

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Um, which obviously has to do with not

re offending, but also has to do with,

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um, Trying to get someone in a more

stable spot for six months and Will that

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increased level of stability be a stepping

stone to other types of stability?

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moving forward so As a journalist, I

really want those easy numbers of what's

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your success rate, what's your recidivism

rate, um, you know, how can you prove

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that you are being transformational.

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Um, but in these conversations, I think

I was made more aware that, uh, people

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have different goals, um, and trying

to Trying to understand what the best

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way to measure success is, uh, is a

conversation that seems pretty up in

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the air, which is frustrating for the

public, and maybe frustrating for business

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owners who want to say, we want to know

that you are reducing crime in the area.

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The, the, all these different

spokes of the justice system.

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Um, but all I can do is say, This

is how community court is trying

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to measure or gauge their success.

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That, yeah, that actually I took a ride

along with, like, the behavioral response

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unit and another one with the behavioral

health unit, um, which are units under

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the police and fire, respectively.

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And they kind of had, not the exact same

thing, but a similar way of measuring it.

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They go out on all these calls, and

what they're trying to do is divert

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people from, Jail and the hospital

unless somebody like really desperately

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needs jail or the hospital Yes,

but there are a lot of cases where?

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You know something happens somebody's in

a state of crisis and those are really

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the two only easy answers but Maybe

they're not the best answer and so we're

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like over stressing that system by just

taking somebody with, you know, who's

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overdosing to the hospital when they've

already kind of come out of that overdose.

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What they actually need

maybe is resources or detox.

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And so trying to find those little

diversions as a success point, but that

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doesn't necessarily measure You know,

is this person going to do it again?

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Is this, has this person ended

up in a permanently stable spot?

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But we're trying to find,

like, the little successes.

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And yeah, it's, it's a little frustrating

as a journalist to be like, Okay,

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you've got this checklist of diversions,

but where did these people end up?

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Um, and I think that's, like,

the complexity of the system

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is that it's hard to tell.

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All of these resources

are overstrapped, right?

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Like, one of the things that struck

me from your story was that in order

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to stay in community court, as opposed

to like, moving up the hierarchy of

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courts, you have to not get cited

for the same offense again for a

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year, I think it was, or six months?

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Yeah, it depends on

what the judge decides.

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Um, Mary, Judge Mary Logan is

the one who runs community court.

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She's a municipal court judge

and does other things in the

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courthouse the rest of the week.

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But she will usually, her, the sentences

that she usually uses are three

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months, six months, or twelve months

depending on what someone is cited for.

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So yeah, somebody may have to

come back to community court.

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Every week for 12 months or say, Hey, I'm

not going to show up today because I have

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a doctor's appointment or because I have

treatment or something like that, right?

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Do those sentences, do

you know, does it matter?

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Like housing stock available, right?

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So somebody gets cited for pedestrian

interference because they were sleeping on

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the streets and they get sent to community

court and the judge tells them like.

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Okay, we're gonna work with you, we're

gonna find you resources in order to

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stay here, you have to not get cited

for pedestrian interference again.

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But does that sentence interplay

with the amount of, you know, can

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we put this person in housing?

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Or like, if we can't put this

person in housing, if there's no

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available housing to put them in.

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How do we ensure that they don't get

cited for pedestrian interference again

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when there's nowhere else to sleep?

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Like, what was that conversation like?

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That's a really good question, and not

one that I was able to get very deep into,

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I think to the detriment of the piece.

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Um, I think that's what, perhaps,

Prosecutor Kling was trying to get at

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with these recidivism rates of like,

um, look, if there's no place for this

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person to be and they get cited for

camping again, That's not a failure of

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the, the community court necessarily.

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Um, but I would suspect that Judge

Logan takes, um, housing availability

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into account when she gives those

stipulations of what people need to do

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in order to, uh, like be successfully,

um, obeying her, her orders.

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Um, but.

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Again, to the detriment of the

piece, I wasn't able to have that

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specific conversation with the judge.

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But you did track down somebody that

did get placed in housing, right?

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Yes.

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That like, did get placed

in housing because of their

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participation in community court.

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Can you tell us a little

bit more about that?

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Absolutely.

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Um, it was really interesting.

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His name was Sam Farrell.

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And, um, he had been kind of

congratulated publicly by the judge.

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Got in a chocolate bar and got

in a round of applause, uh,

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which is just kind of cute.

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It is Yeah, but but meaningful I think

especially To have kind of that nod of

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acknowledgement from from your peers

and people and so he Yes, he was, he

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was in compliance, doing really well

with his, um, conditions and, and had

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been, had found a spot in Catalyst,

um, up on, oh gosh, it's sunset, right?

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I'm gonna really make a fool of myself, so

I'm here, um, Aaron's on it, Aaron Hedge

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is gonna figure it out, um, and And what

was really interesting, so, so he was kind

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of acknowledged because he had just gotten

this apartment, and the judge was like,

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great job, you know, you're doing it.

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And, um, and I, I, I suspect her, well,

actually, I won't go into that, um,

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but I was talking with him afterwards,

and he was talking about before this,

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living in a small, what he called a

small tent city off the Fish Lake Trail.

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And, um, It struck me what a community

that, that small, uh, camp was for him,

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and how it was jarring for him to be

separated from the people that he knew,

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and in this kind of new housing situation.

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Um, and he wasn't ungrateful, he,

he didn't say that he didn't want

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it, um, but he just mentioned

what a transition it was for him.

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Um, and I That's always surprising

to me as someone who has been housed

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my entire life, um, and feels very

comfortable with, um, access to running

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water, and, and feels like, how could

I ever imagine life without this?

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Um, to hear him talk about, well, I,

you know, I used to walk miles and

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then I'd carry water back for everyone.

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And, Now that I, you know, now

that the place where I can shower

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and wash my hands is attached to

where I live, Um, it's just, it's,

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it's kind of jarring and shocking.

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And, um, I just thought that was an

interesting, an interesting point.

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I, um, I think part of what journalism

can do is just help you imagine

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what it's like to be another person.

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And I included that anecdote not because

I, um, I don't know, because I felt

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like it explained much about community

court or much about the criminal justice

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system, but I just thought, well, it's,

it's just helpful as we're all trying

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to figure out what to do, um, to improve

issues in our city, to just practice like

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entering into an experience that might be

really different from our own and pretty.

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It was pretty hard for me to understand,

honestly, um, but he mentioned it to the

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judge too and, and she seems like she

hadn't really thought about it from that

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perspective as well and, and was thankful

to hear it and, um, she, she spoke to

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him for like five minutes and it was just

lovely to see them kind of And I mean, in

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a way that's like a radical act of love

and community right to walk for miles

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to bring back water for your people.

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And I guess if I really think about

it, it's like, it's not that he misses

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the chore, it's probably that he misses

being in a community where people

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would like go out of their way to do

something like that for each other.

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One thing that I noticed when I talked

to unhoused folks is they have that.

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They have a real reason to care for each

other, and they don't, it's not always

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perfect, and they don't always, not

everybody cares for each other, it's a

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community of human beings, but, yeah, just

like, The things that we take for granted

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as people, like, I've always been housed,

I've never struggled with homelessness,

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and I'm always struck by The things that

I take for granted on a daily basis and

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I have to be consistently reminded of,

of those things and it's really like, I

264

think it's really important to put those,

those, those details in stories so that

265

readers can, can understand what that's

like, or it can, you know, at least like

266

realize that it's something that exists.

267

Um, so Catalyst is on, uh, Riverside

near the University District.

268

Um.

269

But it's Sorry.

270

No, no, it's okay.

271

We have to look stuff up all the time.

272

During the show.

273

Um, So, we've talked about, like,

kind of the kinds of cases that

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community court hears and you know,

the purpose for why it exists.

275

Can you talk a little bit about,

like, The structure of how the cases

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work, like, how does it, how does a

case make its way to the community

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court and like, like, how does, how

does the city prosecutor decide which

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cases to bring, to try to bring there?

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So, as I understand it,

um, Spokane is unique.

280

This didn't get into the

piece, so I'm glad you asked.

281

Kling was explaining to me that Spokane

is unique because the tickets that

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police will often give are called direct

citations in the sense that they will

283

have a court date specifically on them.

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I didn't realize that

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Any of that was, like,

unique or not unique.

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I hadn't even thought about that.

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I think in most other places, uh,

police officers will give a ticket,

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and then, um, that will be logged with,

like, a city prosecutor's office, and

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the prosecutors will decide which,

um, which cases to continue, or set

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a court date, or something like that.

291

Um, but, as I understand it for

community court, poli well For a lot

292

of these citations downtown, police

will hand a ticket, it will have a

293

date on it, and that date will be the

immediately following Monday at 10 a.

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m.

295

for community court.

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And so there's no question

about when to show up or where.

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People are pretty aware of it, it's

pretty predictable, which I would

298

think, like, would increase attendance.

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I don't know about that.

300

Um, but that is That's how these sort

of citations end up at community court.

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And hopefully, that's where

they'll be dealt with.

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Now, if people don't show up and

are chronically absent or are not

303

responding to the citations, that's

when, um, it seems like they will be

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moved up to municipal court, where

there's a whole different branch of,

305

uh, services that will contact you

about when that court date is and start

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upping the, uh, punitive measures.

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Because you're much more

likely to be sentenced to jail.

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Alright, alright.

309

Be sentenced to jail time or, or like

deal with more punitive measures once

310

you make it into, onto the courthouse

campus on the other side of the river.

311

Interesting.

312

So, and, and where, so where did,

uh, and I believe this is like.

313

The community courts exist as part of,

like, the way that I understood it from

314

your pieces, like, as part of, like, a

state level system, and it doesn't receive

315

any funding from the local government.

316

Can you talk a little bit about,

about how it's structured?

317

That's changing, though, right?

318

Aren't the Sorry, I

don't want to scoop you.

319

Tell me, tell me, tell me.

320

Well, it was part of Mayor Lisa

Brown's community safety tax, right?

321

Was that some of that funding would

go towards these like community

322

courts and like staffing the municipal

and community court systems, right?

323

I'm so glad you brought this up.

324

Because that's what I thought and

that's why I started this piece

325

and then in reporting this piece.

326

I figured out that's not true

at all Not not not true at all.

327

It's just that the funding from the

community safety sales tax is going

328

to a Um, like pre trial and case

management services at Municipal Court.

329

So it's all I feel like that

was not how it was marketed.

330

Maybe that's because I was trying to

figure out why I was confused and why

331

I was like, I'm gonna track these tax

dollars by reporting on community court.

332

And then it was just

like, not the case at all.

333

So I was like, but I'm new to this.

334

And so I always chalk

everything up to well.

335

I'm just a dunce because I'm like,

I barely started city reporting

336

and so I just don't understand

what's happening, but interesting.

337

That's that.

338

That's what you thought, too, because, um.

339

If you want to know where those tax

dollars go, there's a supplementary

340

online piece, um, not in the usual,

like, Thursday, I'm excited about

341

this, um, to talk about community

justice services at municipal court.

342

That, it's funding, the sales tax

dollars are funding ten jobs there.

343

But community court, which is

confusing, It's called community

344

court, not community justice services.

345

Um, community court.

346

is still only funded by the state,

besides, I think the city helps pay for

347

a few security guards because they need

like, um, extra security guards when

348

it's an official, when that part of

the library is an official courtroom.

349

Um, so no, it's not changing.

350

State thing founded in 2013

by Judge Logan, who's still

351

the one, um, Um, judging it.

352

Also, um, Dr.

353

Nevin, Dr.

354

Darren Nevin, who's a physician on site.

355

Very interesting character in your piece.

356

So interesting.

357

Wish I could have gotten into that

more, but there's just no space.

358

And, um, then a group of both public

defenders and city prosecutors.

359

Um, that original group did include

Francis Adewale, who's like, probably.

360

Uh, like a way bigger deal than he comes

across because he's so, uh, modest.

361

And um, David Kling, the city

prosecutor who's there now, who's

362

been there I think about six years.

363

Um, he was like, just so you know,

like Francis is the president elect for

364

the Washington State Bar Association,

but he will never tell you that.

365

And I was like.

366

Thank you so much, you know?

367

Um, so I noticed that

detail in your piece.

368

Yeah, I was just like, I, I, he seems

very recognized by his own community,

369

um, but he's so focused on serving the

people that he defends that he would just

370

never think of like, that's the thing

with the best civil servants, is that

371

they're never gonna brag about themselves.

372

Never.

373

There's, yeah, there's something poetic

about just like, quiet civil servants

374

who just like, are kind of a big deal

but never like, market it to anybody.

375

Yeah, I was gonna ask you why you wrote

this story, but you kind of answered it.

376

Um, so I do want to ask you

about the insider knowledge that

377

you told me about a trivia that

did not make it into the story.

378

The emotional support duck.

379

Can you tell me more?

380

Tell all of us a little bit

about the emotional support duck.

381

I don't know about this.

382

I, I really want to fit this

into a whole separate piece,

383

but we'll see what happens.

384

Um, so, like I said, very clumsily at

the beginning of this interview, there

385

are five therapeutic courts, uh, um,

under this umbrella of municipal court.

386

And, um, and, and I should, I just

want to clarify municipal court does

387

do other things besides therapeutic

courts, but it's like one arm are these.

388

These courtrooms.

389

So, there's community court, there's also

something called veterans court, um, which

390

is specifically geared towards veterans.

391

Um, and so, to get an idea, to get a

feel of how different community court

392

was from just regular municipal court,

I sat in on Judge Mary Logan's, uh,

393

district courtroom for a whole day.

394

Now that day happened

to be, uh, a Thursday.

395

Where there was veterans court and

so I got to see that too about an

396

hour and I was going up and I was

going up to the courtroom and a

397

prosecutor was going up too and he

said, are you coming to veterans court?

398

And I said, yeah, he said, just to

let you know, there's a, there's an

399

emotional support duck there and he

walked away and I was kind of rushing

400

and, and like not, I was like, surely

he didn't say, surely he said dog.

401

Yeah.

402

He's sure, he's surely like, just so you

know, you know, there's like a German

403

Shepherd there, like, like he's probably

just like, just in case, you know, in

404

case you're scared of dogs or whatever,

there's an emotional support dog.

405

Well, I get up there and um, there's

a stroller with like a, like a

406

plastic tub in the seat and there's

this white duck that's, Somehow has

407

this, like, puff of feathers on top

of its head, and I was like, oh.

408

Is it a real, like, live duck?

409

It's a real live duck.

410

It's a real live duck.

411

It's an animal.

412

Absolutely.

413

It is a duck.

414

D U C K.

415

D U C K.

416

Um, and Oh, I wish I had my Oh,

Isaac showed me photos of the duck.

417

There's photo evidence.

418

I have its owner's, um, business card

which I wish I had on me now because puns.

419

Absolutely.

420

I spoke to this man for like five

minutes and it was non stop duck puns.

421

And I I love puns and I was reeling.

422

Um, the and I wish I had my

wallet on me right now because

423

I have his card and I just can't

quite remember what his name was.

424

But Um, he was basically like, I had

an emotional support dog, like a golden

425

retriever, that this duck imprinted on

and then when the dog died, the duck is

426

like, well, it's my turn now to like,

and so this guy, you know, strollers him

427

around and he was in the courtroom to

much to the delight of everyone there,

428

um, which is just sort of like loaning

people, the emotional support of his

429

Was it Duck or was he also in court?

430

He was also in court.

431

So he was in like a, you know, um, I don't

know how many months off the top of my

432

head he had been through this process.

433

Um, but this is another therapeutic

court where they try to individualize

434

um, sentencing and care and, and Uh,

sign things like anger management

435

courses or substance use or

journal, sorry, not substance use,

436

substance use counseling, or, um,

437

have some ice cream, you know, um, or, uh,

like journaling or, or the judge is much

438

more likely to ask, you know, how does

XYZ make you feel or, or, Ask her, like,

439

a question of the day, like, Should the

sky fall and something totally unexpected

440

comes into your life, what's your plan B?

441

That was her, kind of,

question of the day.

442

And, so, part of that individualized

attention is, like, Okay,

443

you have an emotional support

duck, like, bring it to court.

444

Bring every part of you that is,

like, Working on healing, or needs

445

to be healed, or the support systems

that are in place that you're

446

trying to build around your life.

447

Uh, bring it here, let's talk about it,

let's assess if it's working or not.

448

And so the, this is such a long

answer to your question, but

449

the duck was a part of that!

450

And I was thrilled.

451

I was really thrilled.

452

So no ducks at community court, but

there was a duck at veterans court.

453

Well it's, I think it's, the, and it

sounds like just like a fun detail,

454

but it's It illustrates like what these

solutions can be for people and the

455

story behind the duck is like It, it was,

it was originally an emotional support

456

dog, and this duck imprinted on the dog.

457

That's incredible.

458

It's like, I'm so glad we're

talking about this, and I'm

459

learning about it here on the radio.

460

Was there any other little details that,

you know, I mean, I never have to worry

461

about a word count, because we just

published digitally, but you have your

462

square inches that you have to fit in.

463

Was there anything good

that didn't make the cut?

464

Ooh, that is a good question.

465

Um, something that was You know, lovely

that I didn't connect for a while.

466

You know, there's a cafe downstairs

in the library called New Leaf Cafe.

467

And I realized that, well, I suspect

that gets its name from community

468

court because in the back of the quote

unquote courtroom, the makeshift event

469

space, um, there's like laminated tree

trunks with lots of individual leaves,

470

um, taped up around them to, to,

471

What's the word I want to

like, make that tree beautiful?

472

I don't know.

473

Uh, I don't, yeah, I don't know what

I'm trying to say, but, um, those leafs

474

are all on the, on those leaves are the

names of people who have had their cases

475

dropped from community court, which

is like, um, you know, they were in

476

compliance with all the stipulations for

as long as the judge requested them to be.

477

And so they have their case

dropped and, um, so then they

478

put their new leaf on the tree.

479

And I suspect that's where

the cafe got its name from.

480

Um, New Leaf Cafe.

481

And, sorry, I wasn't able to confirm

that because I left community court

482

at like, 1230 that Monday because my I

was supposed to turn the piece in by 3.

483

I was like very much on a deadline I'd

ended up much to my editors frustration

484

like writing the piece until 7 that

night and then we started editing

485

it or she started editing it at Like

630 the next morning because we have

486

to put the paper to bed by noon on

Tuesday, and it's just It was crazy.

487

Putting the paper to bed means

sending it to the printer.

488

Yes, thank you.

489

We have weird jargon.

490

We don't.

491

We don't have to do that.

492

We, yeah, so our publishing

schedule, we've got to like

493

send it to the printer by midday

Tuesday so that it can come back.

494

Whatever.

495

But, um, so I didn't confirm confirm with

the cafe that that's why it's called that,

496

so that's why I didn't put it in print.

497

But I'm putting it out here now because

I think it's a pretty strong connection.

498

Otherwise, I just wanted to tell

you, that's what the tree is and that

499

That event room are four and you can

see that there are hundreds of them.

500

So I think that's pretty cool.

501

That's really beautiful Okay, so I'm

going to read you a PSA and then we are

502

going to move on to talking about City

Hall Eliza, you are also obviously a

503

City Hall reporter, so when we move on

to that next section, feel free to chime

504

in on anything you think is relevant.

505

Sure.

506

Alright.

507

Alright, well so, we're moving on

to our next topic, which is the Pact

508

City Council meeting on Monday night.

509

Um, and Erin, so you're always at

City Council firing off those sick

510

tweet slash skeet threads that

we get so much great feedback on.

511

But, um, and Eliza, you're there too.

512

Well, it's mostly good feedback.

513

Some people get a little

feisty about it, that's okay.

514

Um, Eliza, you're there too.

515

You, you were there on Monday night, yeah?

516

I wasn't because I was

still writing this piece.

517

Oh yeah, that's what you said.

518

Yeah, that's maybe the, but, but at some

point maybe I can explain why even though

519

it's the most packed city council in world

history, no I'm kidding, in recent memory,

520

why I didn't feel the need to go, but.

521

Yeah.

522

Well, I mean, plenty of

people saw it, uh, so.

523

Yeah, so so so you're always there doing

these like recording it making this

524

public record, but Monday night's meeting

was a little different Can you describe

525

the scene of the absolutely massive

crowd that had gathered there when you

526

rolled up to City Hall and tell us what?

527

They were there for yeah,

so okay picture this.

528

It's 530.

529

I'm running a little bit late We're

meeting our intern Sandra who is taking

530

photos and like as I get there you

can just hear You can hear something

531

happening from around the block.

532

Um, there's chanting, there's somebody

on a megaphone, and when I round

533

the corner in front of City Hall,

like, the sort of entryway right in

534

front of the building is just packed.

535

There's noisemakers, people are

ringing bells, everybody's got

536

signs, um, somebody's handing, like,

I think it was, uh, Empire Health

537

Foundation had brought, like, pizza

and was handing out pizza to people.

538

And then there's the usual MAC movement

folks who always hand out, like, water and

539

snacks outside of city council and it's

kind of a gathering space for unhoused

540

people who maybe need more resources and

who might want to take that opportunity

541

to get a snack and come tell city

council what it's like to be unhoused.

542

Be living on the street.

543

So there's all of the usual folks, and

then just, God, I don't know, maybe

544

like 200 more people out in front.

545

And I'm just gonna play a little bit of

audio, um, of what that sounded like.

546

If this works.

547

Wish me luck.

548

No hate, no fear!

549

Immigrants are welcome here!

550

No hate, no fear!

551

Immigrants are welcome here!

552

No hate, no fear!

553

Immigrants are welcome here!

554

There's strength in numbers,

and there's purity in it too.

555

If you look around at everyone standing

right here, you can understand that

556

they're standing with solidarity.

557

Understand the people that you

are with here today have shared

558

goals, shared aspirations, and

what most people lack, empathy.

559

Thank you all for being

here today to hear with us.

560

Okay, so yeah, those, those

are some sounds of the protest,

561

and then like, a rally.

562

I think they were, they were calling

it a rally, and I want to honor that.

563

Um, and probably ten minutes before

the meeting starts, right, as I'm

564

kind of grabbing my stuff and heading

down to the media table, they tell

565

everybody like, Sign ups are closing.

566

If you want to speak,

you need to go inside.

567

You need to go down to, uh,

the city council chambers and

568

you need to sign up to speak.

569

Um, and of course, a bunch

of people go down there.

570

Uh, and as the meeting kicks off,

I've been told probably 45 minutes

571

to an hour into the meeting.

572

They have to take a break because the

fire marshal has realized that there

573

are more people in and around the

building than is allowed with fire code.

574

The whole city council chamber, there

was maybe like There was like 20 seats

575

that were unfilled, but it was like

one off seats kind of squished in

576

the middle, like for the most part.

577

The chambers were filled, then

you've got the Chase Gallery, which

578

is an art gallery right outside of

Chambers, and they pipe the sound in.

579

So like, if you want to move around,

if you want to be noisy, if you want

580

to take a phone call during a council

meeting, you can go hang out in the

581

gallery, and it's usually pretty empty.

582

But, on Monday, it was And then

apparently they'd put another like

583

40 to 60 people in the briefing

chamber where council gets their

584

weekly briefings on important things.

585

They'd put up a live feed.

586

Um, where you could like see and listen

to the meeting and still hear like,

587

oh, if you signed up to testify, you

can hear that you're third on the

588

list so you can leave the briefing

center and come down to the chambers.

589

And then there was another hundred people

just rallying outside the building out

590

in the freezing cold, um, just sort of

continuing to carry that, that torch.

591

And so we heard from the audio

that you played that, you

592

know, um, no hate, no fear.

593

Immigrants are welcome here.

594

This was a meeting that involved

immigration, which is obviously

595

one of the hottest Topics in the

nation right now, and we've been

596

doing a good bit of reporting on it.

597

Uh, I think every reporter in town is

kind of scrambling to do reporting on it.

598

Yeah, I know, Inlander has Victor, and

at the Spokesman, Alex and Emery and

599

Monica have been kind of holding it down.

600

And, and obviously it's in response

to the Trump administration's, just

601

the national context of the Trump

administration's, um, Efforts to deport

602

quote unquote millions of immigrants

who they say are Who he characterizes as

603

criminals, but many of whom just crossed

an imaginary line that we made up, um,

604

to find a better life for themselves.

605

And people have been getting arrested

in Spokane and taken to detention

606

facilities by federal agents.

607

So what was going on?

608

Yeah.

609

At this wild scene that you're,

that you, that you just described.

610

So there was two items on the agenda

on Monday that kind of related to this.

611

The first was pretty mundane, um, and it

was a resolution to prioritize bilingual

612

and multilingual applicants to city jobs.

613

This didn't get a ton of press.

614

I mentioned it in my story.

615

Um.

616

But I thought it was, it's, uh, one of

Council Member Lily Navarrete's little

617

babies of resolutions and it's been sort

of working its way through with like edits

618

and this was the big night to vote on it.

619

And in celebration of both that

item and the resolution, which

620

is the big one I want to talk

about, they rolled out a pilot of

621

translation devices at the meeting.

622

So all of Council were equipped with

these little earbuds and mic packs.

623

Um, and so if a speaker in the

room spoke Spanish at the meeting.

624

the podium, somebody would

translate that into English into

625

the earpieces for council members.

626

And then if you wanted to attend the

meeting and you needed English translation

627

services, you could check out a recorder,

like a similar pack from the table.

628

And there was somebody sitting up

in the booth who was translating the

629

entire meeting into Spanish, from

English to um, and Alex who manages

630

the council's like DEI initiatives.

631

Uh, told everybody about these devices,

both in English and in Spanish, at

632

the top of the meeting, so people

knew that they could go get them.

633

This one ended up not being very

controversial, but I think it's

634

really cool that it passed, so

I just want to highlight it.

635

I think it's also worth noting

that Councilmember Navarrete is the

636

first She's the first Immigrant?

637

I want to say both the

first immigrant, like first

638

generation immigrant on council.

639

And also the first Latina woman on

council, um, which is incredible.

640

She is, uh, she, she's been kind of quiet

in her first couple months on council,

641

I think, being very calculated about

what she proposes because she can kind

642

of be a target for people sometimes.

643

Um, but this was like one of her

first big pieces of legislation

644

that she's moved through.

645

So I do kind of want to, and

you know, council member Michael

646

Cathcart was a big partner on this.

647

He's been kind of a, a champion

for language access at the

648

city and county level as well.

649

So the two of them had kind of

spearheaded this legislation, but

650

the more controversial item was

a resolution that affirmed the

651

city's commitment to state law.

652

So there's a called keep Washington

working act and actually hedge.

653

Your recent story on, um, The fact that

ICE and Border Patrol are picking up

654

immigrants in Spokane and then taking

them across the border to Kootenai

655

is because we have a state law that

says city officials, including police

656

officers, cannot cooperate with ICE.

657

That also means Any, any, any Uh,

any Washington state employee.

658

State employee, yeah.

659

That also applies to jails.

660

So nobody at the, um, the jail in Airway

Heights can cooperate with ICE either.

661

Because it's a state prison, yeah.

662

Yeah, so this resolution basically says,

We as a city, Affirm that state law like

663

we recommit to it We are committed to not

using any of our resources to help ice.

664

It also said we um Support doing a

retraining of city employees to make

665

sure that they're compliant with

state law Uh and collecting data

666

on like I mean, it was to collect

data on any cooperation with ICE.

667

Essentially, cooperation

with ICE is illegal.

668

So, you know, if things are going

well, that that data presentation

669

will be like, look, here's six

months where we followed state law.

670

That is, I think, hopefully what happens.

671

But basically, I think the

worry was that People are scared

672

to call emergency services.

673

There is a fear that law enforcement

is going to help Border Patrol.

674

And so if you're an undocumented

immigrant, and you have like a medical

675

emergency, there might be a fear that

if I call 911 right now, um, for this

676

very real emergency, and I will end up

getting arrested or deported or harassed.

677

Um, and so I think that the point of

this resolution, which was championed by

678

Latinos in Spokane and then supported by

just a ton of other groups, there was a

679

lot of solidarity behind this resolution

was to, as a city show that like.

680

We will not participate or

help with these federal orders.

681

And you can feel safe calling 9 1 1.

682

Um, you can feel safe asking

for help if you need it.

683

And ICE will not show up because

you call the cops or because

684

you call for an ambulance.

685

So that's, that's kind of

the rationale behind, like,

686

doing, doing this resolution.

687

Um, but as, you know, as one of the

council members who voted against it.

688

And all this resolution is doing is

saying, We're gonna follow the law.

689

Um, essentially.

690

Um, and, you know, implementing

training programs and stuff.

691

Which is, a little note here,

City Council can actually not

692

dictate training for staff.

693

We have a strong Mayor City, which

means that Any retraining would

694

have to come from Mayor Lisa Brown.

695

She would have to direct people to get

trained unless they were like the couple

696

of, I think there's like, I don't know,

six to ten employees that fall under the

697

council that they can direct training for.

698

But this is saying that they

like support a retraining.

699

Um, and you know, Mayor Brown

didn't like speak out against

700

this resolution or anything.

701

So I think it's, it's probably

safe to say that some training

702

will happen because of it.

703

Um, but I do think it is worth

noting the City Council cannot

704

dictate training for staff.

705

And I think you said there's like,

four staff members for city council.

706

Yeah, that was maybe, I feel

like it's like four to ten.

707

They have like initiative

managers and, you know, like

708

legislative assistants and clerks.

709

Um, But I think, I think, so, so, one

of the concerns I saw articulated in

710

your piece was that this, resolution

is just kind of like pro forma and, um,

711

the conservative council member Michael

Cathcart thought it might engender

712

false hope in immigrant communities and

that's the reason he voted against it.

713

Can you explain his

rationale a little bit?

714

Yeah, I can explain it and then I'll

let, uh, I have a little clip to

715

kind of let him speak for himself.

716

Um, Cathcart expressed a worry

that if the council You know,

717

there was a ton of people there.

718

There was a lot of publicity around this.

719

A bunch of groups had rallied behind

this and blasted it all over social

720

media as they, you know, well shit.

721

Um, Cathcart was worried that people

might see a news headline or see a post

722

on social media and think Oh, the city

passed this, this protection, the city

723

reaffirmed the rights of immigrants.

724

I might be safer than I am.

725

Like he was worried that it might

give the impression that the city was

726

preventing ICE from doing enforcement,

when what the resolution actually

727

does is says that the city will

continue to follow state law of not.

728

Helping ICE.

729

So like, I want to be so clear, if

you call 9 1 1, ICE will not show up.

730

This does ensure, like it doesn't,

you know, that is still state law.

731

But this doesn't stop ICE

from operating in Spokane.

732

The city can't do anything about

ICE operating here, but they can

733

choose to not help them, which

is following the state law.

734

Yes, so here is Cath Cart

explaining this in his own words.

735

And just a quick note for

transparency, these council members

736

are a little bit long winded.

737

I cut a baby bit out of this

clip just for clarity and time.

738

And I think it's pretty clear that the

administration is going to look for

739

opportunities where there is a show.

740

And where we are putting on a show, they

are going to look to, perhaps, push back.

741

And I'm very concerned that

we are creating this immense

742

false sense of security.

743

There will be a headline in the Spokesman

Review tomorrow or other publications,

744

uh, about us passing this resolution.

745

And suddenly, individuals are

going to say, wow, okay, ICE is

746

gone, it's all okay, it's clear.

747

But that's not the case.

748

It's a false sense of security.

749

This resolution is not necessary

for state law to be enacted or

750

remain enacted the way it is.

751

It's a frustrating situation where we

have incredible immigrant populations

752

in this community, refugees that mean

so much, individuals that mean so

753

much, that come out and do all kinds

of things for our community, but we are

754

risking them by putting this out there.

755

It doesn't do anything.

756

ICE doesn't care about our resolution.

757

In fact, they might think the opposite.

758

Okay, so that's what

Cathcart had to say about it.

759

On the other hand, you've got, um, you've

got advocates for immigrant communities

760

like Jennifer Mesa, the Executive

Director of Latinos in Spokane, who I

761

think has expressed something similar

both to you and Luke and in social

762

media posts about this resolution that

like by taking up this resolution and

763

you know that paired with the rally the

media coverage of it people might now

764

be more aware of their rights and of the

situation where law enforcement Spokane

765

law enforcement is safe to call, you

know, emergency services are safe to call.

766

And so I think the hope is that like

the publicity and the media attention

767

around this just reaffirms for people

that it is safe to use these services.

768

So those are the two kind

of, I think, most salient

769

arguments about the resolution.

770

Okay.

771

Um, you titled your story, Solidarity,

If Not Sanctuary, and this seems like

772

a reference to Washington's status as a

sanctuary state, which is basically what

773

that law does for the state of Washington.

774

Um, a sanctuary, what is

this term that's thrown out?

775

Around like sanctuary states or

sanctuary cities where the local

776

governments don't help federal

agents enforce immigration law.

777

Um, but yeah, can you talk about

like what you mean by that headline?

778

Yeah, so I think what I was trying to

capture was the heart of that debate.

779

And that like the importance of

this resolution is that it shows a

780

solidarity with immigrant communities.

781

Like multiple council members were

telling people, even conservative

782

council members on the council were

telling people like, know your rights.

783

Like, I think Kitty Klitschke said, like,

it is patriotic to know and exercise your

784

rights for yourself and your neighbors.

785

It is patriotic to stand up

for what you know is wrong.

786

Um, something along those

lines, it's a paraphrase.

787

Uh, Betsy Wilkerson called it like

a two and a half hour public service

788

announcement for immigration rights.

789

And again, there was so many different

groups, like the Jewish Voice for Peace.

790

Um, and Veterans for Peace, I think,

I might be quoting these names wrong.

791

I'm so sorry.

792

I'm just rambling off the top of my

head, but a ton of different groups

793

that showed up and testified for this.

794

There was a lot of solidarity around

it, a lot of support and kind of

795

resoluteness around standing with

the immigrant community in Spokane.

796

And then also that very real criticism

that like being a sanctuary state or

797

a sanctuary city Means, not nothing,

because again I do think it is very much

798

worth something that you know you can

call emergency services and get help.

799

Um, but it does mean that,

800

like, sanctuary implies a sense of safety

and security and we can't stop ICE.

801

Uh, and then also there's a separate

legal debate that I briefly touched

802

on about the fact that sanctuary city

as a term means virtually nothing.

803

There's like, sort of an agreed

upon social definition of what

804

that is, which Hedge described.

805

Um, but this resolution doesn't make

Spokane a sanctuary city because we're

806

just already following state law.

807

This did nothing but say we will

continue to follow state law.

808

It didn't say, like, we

are a sanctuary city.

809

It just said we will follow state law.

810

And there is an argument to be

made that state law makes the

811

entire state of Washington.

812

I don't know.

813

I think a lot of that argument is really

semantic and I wanted to stay away

814

from giving people a false sense of

security about what is and isn't allowed.

815

And I was going to play a clip of the

other argument against this from the

816

second no vote on the resolution, Jonathan

Bingle, who had this very, very funny

817

speech about Super Bowl Sunday and his

family eating what he called Flergens.

818

And then described as beef patties

with lettuce and tomatoes and onions,

819

which was all part of his grand

metaphor to state that, uh, you know,

820

you can call something by a different

name, but it still is that thing.

821

And this is like a sanctuary

city resolution is the point

822

that he was getting at.

823

He even quoted Shakespeare,

but we are about at time.

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. Eliza, anything else to add?

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No, I just like sitting here

and listening to you guys talk.

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Thank you so much for coming.

827

Oh my gosh, thank you.

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I'm Erin Sellers.

829

That's Erin Hedge.

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We've got Eliza Billingham

across the table.

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And this has been Free Range, a

weekly news and public affairs program

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presented by Range Media and produced

by Range Media and KYRS Community Radio.