Strategies for Sustained Success in Marketing with Nikkie Freeman

Artwork for podcast B2B Marketing Methods

Episode 11 • 9th August 2024 • B2B Marketing Methods • Marketing Refresh

Terri Hoffman :

This is B2B Marketing Methods. I'm your host, Terri Hoffman, and I'm the CEO of Marketing Refresh. Let's face it. Embracing digital marketing is daunting. This podcast was created to make it more approachable. Join us as we talk to CEOs, sales leaders, and revenue growth experts who will share lessons learned and tips from their own journeys. Well, welcome. Thank you so much for joining in today to Marketing Methods.

Terri Hoffman :

This is your host, Terri Hoffman. I'm really excited to be here today with a special guest named Nikkie Freeman. Nikkie is the founder and CEO of a fractional CMO consulting company that is called Flywheel CMO. And through the course of the interview and discussion that she and I have today, you're gonna learn a lot more about her business and what her areas of expertise are. Some of the things I'm planning on us covering today are how a fractional CMO can help a company, look at how they're investing in their sales and marketing programs, how an ROI model is built for businesses. She brings in a lot of a finance background as well, which I think is super interesting and really excited to dig into that with her. I think another area is just, you know, building a budget. Right? So part of ROI is how much am I budgeting and allocating towards my marketing and sales investment.

Terri Hoffman :

And those topics and more that I'm sure we'll uncover through this conversation is what we're gonna be digging into today. Nikkie has a really credible background in the marketing and in franchise business owner industry, so I'm very excited to help you get to know her and see what we can learn. So welcome, Nikkie. Thanks for joining me today.

Nikkie Freeman:

Great. Thanks, Terri. Thanks for the introduction, and thanks for having me today. I'm looking forward to a lively discussion.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. I I think it will be just that. III always find it interesting to talk to a fractional CMO because you're really helping with some of the most uncomfortable and challenging and tough to navigate conversations when it comes to investing in marketing. And so I think there's just so much that, I'm hoping our listeners can learn from you today and learn about your approach.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah, absolutely.

Terri Hoffman :

So let's start to get to know you a little bit. 1st, you have a really diverse background, and I wanna start by kind of learning about how you got started in the business world, and then we'll we'll take off from there. So what what where did you begin your career?

Nikkie Freeman:

u know, this is back in, say,: 2013

Nikkie Freeman:

They were almost all of their marketing was digital. They were a very large online freight broker, about 700, 000, 000. And so we were driving a lot of those decisions because we had all of this rich data from, you know, digital, tactics that were being performed. Then an opportunity came up where the VP of marketing left. They moved marketing underneath me, and that was kind of the start of my marketing career. So I led both analytics and marketing there, worked there for 5 years, then got a recruiting call to take a, chief marketing officer role at a mid market printing company that was private equity held. So I went there, did that for 6 years. When I first got there, not only did I run marketing, but I I like to look high high level and get beyond just marketing to see, you know, what's the overall strict corporate strategy and how are we gonna achieve that? And it may go outside of the role of just purely marketing.

Nikkie Freeman:

And so I set up a sales team. You know, I generated or created a product development team, new product development team, which is the first 1 they had. And so, ultimately, I became the chief revenue officer because my scope went beyond marketing into sales and product development, ecommerce solutions. So I did that for 6 years. It was a really good run and got to a point in my career where I wanted more flexibility. And I really love working with small businesses, small to midsize businesses and helping them achieve their revenue goals. You know, you had mentioned I'm a a franchise owner. I've been in that, position for 20 years, so I I emotions behind founder led businesses and, helping them achieve that is is really exciting for me.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. That's that's so cool. You you have had a very diverse set of experiences. I'm really curious what going back to the the freight company that you worked for when you got presented with the opportunity to take over marketing, what what interested you in that? Like, that had to have been, it's a it's a very different part of the company. Right? A totally different functional area. What made you wanna dive in and and take that on?

Nikkie Freeman:

Well, it's interesting. I so for so many years, I was doing the analytics on the back end of what's working, what's not working, then kind of got into driving decisions with those analytics. And I got to the point where I wanted to really be the 1 in control and making the decisions of what those ultimate results ended up being. And I was so passionate about it before I took on marketing. I I would stay up late at night, get up early in the morning, and just consume as much information as I could off the Internet about digital marketing and learning all the ins and outs of it. So when I was presented with that opportunity, it was a really a natural progression for me.

Terri Hoffman :

That was actually the next thing I was gonna ask you is how did you learn about marketing? I I've always viewed marketing as I mean, this is probably a very poor analogy, but I think it's more of like an apprenticeship type area of learning. And what I mean by that is when you wanna become a plumber or an electrician, there's a baseline of knowledge that you have to learn. Right? Just so that when you start working as an apprentice and you're going on sites and being trained by somebody who's a master in those areas, you can actually grasp and understand what they're teaching you. And I I think marketing is very similar. It's hard to complete a 4 year degree and then be ready to just dive dive right in. That's only the the starting point. So what were some of the resources you turned to to start learning more about kind of the fundamentals of marketing?

Nikkie Freeman:

,: 2013

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Okay. The I mean, it's funny because those are some of the main tools I used to learn as well. Because, I mean, digital marketing is not that old or mature of an industry. When you're in the industry, it feels like things change so quickly, and anything that came out a year ago is old already. But in reality, if you compare it to any other the maturation of any any other industry, it's still pretty young. Right. And hasn't hasn't still doesn't have widespread adoption, which is 1 of the reasons that I do this podcast.

Terri Hoffman :

But 1 of the things that I really value about HubSpot is that they've created some common created some common vocabulary, and I think they also make it more accessible and easy for somebody that doesn't know anything about marketing or digital marketing to get really onboarded into that world. Right. I think they have a 100% figured that out, and that's, to me, the gold standard. When we have new employees or interns, that's the first place we have them start. Okay. Up to speed.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. Yeah. Which really kinda goes back to where you said, marketing's like an apprenticeship. There's so much that you can learn in in college, but, you know, 1, the industry is changing so much, so you're constantly learning. And 2, having some, business experience goes a long way in maturing you as a marketing professional as well. Because you need to know how all the dots connect. Right? So it's not just what are we doing from a marketing perspective, but also understanding, you know, how's that align with sales and how's that align with corporate strategy and, you know, operations and kinda all the pieces, at least from my perspective when you're in a a leadership role. You really need to understand all those piece parts, and it's just something that you learn through experience and not through education.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah.

Terri Hoffman :

I I completely agree. I think too, it sounds like you've had because of the diverse background you've had, it really just maybe, like, a set of breadcrumbs led you right to the the role as a fractional CMO. You know, for those people listening that don't really know what that role does, I so from my perspective, the title chief marketing officer or CMO, that is a title that is very common in the consumer marketing space or with big b to b SaaS companies. But I'm starting to see it really emerge even more into more of an industrial or manufacturing b to b space. So I was wondering if you'd even just define the responsibilities of that role and how that role adds value inside of AAB to b business?

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. Sure. So, a fractional CMO is basically you're paying for a fraction of a CMO's time. Often, companies don't have the budget for a full time executive. You you start thinking about salary and benefits and, you know, it's a big expense. And if you're in that kind of mid mid range, of revenue, it may be something that you don't have the budget for right away. Additionally, I see clients sometimes that maybe have a couple of internal marketing people, but don't have a strategy, and so they understand that they need a strategy in order to achieve their growth goals. But, again, they don't have the budget for it.

Nikkie Freeman:

So, really, a fractional CMO can play that part at just a fraction of the the cost. So I will instead of working full time with you with 1, you know, organization, I'm working part time for, say, 3 or 4 organizations and just charging a fraction of my time for each of those. So it's a really cost effective way to get some high level, you know, insight leadership, developing a a solid strategy, and helping with the execution of that without, you know, spending $300, 000 a year to do it.

Terri Hoffman :

Right. And so who are you typically interfacing with when you get an engagement and start working with the business? Who are the typical stakeholders that you're interfacing with?

Nikkie Freeman:

Most often, it's either the founder or the CEO. If they do have an internal team, then I'm working with that team and leading them, mentoring them, leveraging them for work that I, you know, feel that they could, you know, bite off and do. And then I'm also reaching out to agencies and engaging agencies for work that they don't have the internal resources to to perform. Okay. In the b to b space, you know, especially manufacturing, that's 1 of my, industries. I know that you guys are really strong in that industry as well. I find that it's not atypical that they haven't been kind of on top of their marketing game, and especially when it comes to online presence and digital marketing, and maybe they don't understand really even how it's relevant for them in their industry. But it's been fun for me to kind of educate and break down those barriers a little bit and help them understand why it's relevant and how how a good strategy could help them, achieve their growth goals.

Terri Hoffman :

Well, and there are there are a lot of investments being made into the manufacturing industry through private equity and other types of investors, are you also taking on the responsibility of helping that that founder or CEO role develop content for the board to kind of help them understand what's happening with their investments?

Nikkie Freeman:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because, you know, that's 1 of the first places that a private equity firm is going to look at is, are you investing for growth? Are you do you have a strong marketing plan? Do you have marketing resources? What is your growth plan? That's how I got, you know, the CMO role at the printing company was through private equity. And so, yeah, helping to tell that story. And I think because of my diverse background and having that data analytics, then I can tell it from a side that makes sense and resonates with private equity owners, which is more from the finance and the numbers side versus from the, you know, branding and brand equity and and buyer's journey. That kind of language, you know, they might be interested in it, but at the end of the day, they're gonna wanna see the ROI, which is how I present, to boards or, you know, provide that information to the CEO or founder.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. That's great. I think that's what I really love about that fractional CMO role is it connects all of these different groups of people who are using. They have different pain points, and they have different concerns. And there's no connective tissue. You know, there's no Right. Nobody helping to interpret what is important to each 1 of those groups so that they can understand, eat 1 another. Right? And that I might be oversimplifying it, but I think at at the core, that is a really core part of that responsibility.

Terri Hoffman :

The the role that you play is just helping everybody understand what's needed, why it's needed, what it's going to do for them, and then how to how to ultimately make that into a reality through implementation. Right?

Nikkie Freeman:

Right. And and I'm making a a story of it. You know, I'm I'm all about storytelling, and data is a great place to start with stories. And so when I'm developing a strategy, it's very heavily data focused. Mhmm. And just looking and data can mean it doesn't have to be numbers. It could even be, you know, looking at your competitors and doing competitor analysis. But I think even starting very high level at are you even is your brand positioned? How it needs to be positioned in the marketplace in order to set you up for success and to achieve your your growth goals.

Nikkie Freeman:

You know, you might not even have so before we start diving into, do you need social media or do you need Google Ads? I mean, you kinda have to start at that grander level of what is it that you're trying to achieve as a company, as a business, and then are you positioned within the marketplace to, to be successful in achieving that?

Terri Hoffman :

Okay. I'm so glad you said that because that was 1 of the questions I wanted to ask you is, what's a common starting place? You know, if you so if you start an engagement and you're beginning to get started, what are some of the, you know, first couple of steps that you're taking to help figure out where this particular business should start?

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. Sure. So it's a a number of things. So we'll look at a competitor, do a competitor analysis, understand your industry, and look at what are the strengths of each of your competitors. Mhmm. I also like to do customer surveys and customer interviews to get at that, you know, space where what do you do really well that your consumers or customers care about that your competitors don't do well? And that is really kind of what positioning is all about. Right? So making sure that there is a differentiator there. I also like to dig dig into customer data just to see what's going on with your current customers.

Nikkie Freeman:

What size are they? Are there a bunch of small ones? Are they draining your profitability? Is there some kind of segments? Do we see certain trends understanding your high level, KPIs that are common in marketing, like your customer lifetime value, what's your customer acquisition cost, what's your average order value, your retention rate, just to see if there are some concerning trends that I wanna address in the marketing strategy as well. And then looking at what's their current marketing, tactics, if any, and resources, and how are those performing for them. Okay. So I'd say those are kind of the 3 big basic areas.

Terri Hoffman :

So I would imagine that, depending on the personalities involved and maybe some other dynamics going on within your clients. And I'm probably basing this on a little bit of past experience of myself too. But do you often run into just, like, a level of, I guess, I'm just gonna call it impatience, like, app, just like anxiety. Like, this is great, Nikkie. We're hiring you because we need we know our marketing isn't probably doing what we need it to do, and we do wanna grow. So and we need you to help us figure that out. But how do they respond to starting with some of those steps that sound like they're gonna take a lot of time before they can really get out in the market and get started?

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. So I like to explain it to them that and, you know, you and I have talked about this before, but just that before you have a marketing coordinator, start executing on tactics, important part of that's the foundation of the house. I don't wanna just, you know, kinda slop that together real quickly because the rest of the house is gonna crumble around it if it's not if it's not good. And so, I think that's part of it. And then also setting expectations on a timeline to start to see results, especially in B2B. It could be a longer sales cycle. There might be multiple, you know, stakeholders or decision makers that are involved in in a sale. So it's not going to be, hey.

Nikkie Freeman:

We spent some money on ads this month, and what did we see from it this month? So there may be a a bit of a longer payback, but that's okay. And you would expect that elsewhere in the business as well. If you're buying new machinery, you're not expecting it to have a 1 or 2 month, payback period. So you're investing for growth, but just know it will take a few months to start to see that growth. And you'll get the leading indicators, which is why it's important to measure, you know, everything. It might not be revenue from day 1. It might be you've gotten a lot more website traffic, brand impressions, leads coming in and so forth. You know? So if you're starting to see the right leading indicators before you get to revenue, then you know that things are working, and hopefully that patience, you know, comes into to play there.

Nikkie Freeman:

Like, oh, okay. I'm starting to see that this is going somewhere.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Yeah. But I like the analogy used with, you know, buying a piece of equipment, for example. Because I think something just a trend I noticed quite a bit is there may be a certain way and a certain set of expectations around different parts of a company's organization and all the functional areas that aren't also applied to the sales and marketing area. It seems like I see a lot of times that there seems to just be this completely different philosophy instead of expectations. And I always wonder, is that because they just don't know what to expect, or is there some other reason behind that? But do you see that as well? Do you notice that?

Nikkie Freeman:

I do. Yeah. So sometimes, you know, manufacturers will make decisions on investments like equipment and other things without necessarily having a business case to to show that there's, you know, a return on that investment or that return might be longer. But there's this thought or this expectations that if it sells in in marketing, it's immediate, you know, revenue generating. And if it's not, then those are expenses that are some of the first to get cut. And so, you know, having that patience and then also having the KPIs and the ability to tie it back and making sure you're measuring the right things is super important because otherwise, if you're doing some marketing stuff and you can't show results from it and you can't tie it to revenue, then, of course, it's not going to stand the test of time.

Terri Hoffman :

t? What a buyer back in maybe: 2015

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. Sure. So, obviously, you know, buyers want to do their own research, and a lot of it before they talk to anybody. So it's interesting. They still do see quite a few companies that rely almost solely on cold calling as their, lead generation, and that's not how buyers wanna buy today. So we've gotta make sure that we're, as marketers, petting sufficient content out there for for buyers at every step of their journey. So as they're researching and evaluating and looking at different vendors and wanting to know, you know, who's the best 1, then, you know, if you're not if have a good online presence, you're not in that game. You're not even gonna be in the decision set then for that buyer.

Nikkie Freeman:

So making sure, you know, I think that's a story that I tell a lot of times as I'm talking to prospects is just that that buyer's journey, what that looks like, how they're researching, what terms they're researching, and then making sure that we have content and a strategy around that so that we're top of mind as they're evaluating their options.

Terri Hoffman :

Right. Yeah. And I there there still seems to be, like, a lot of, like, hesitancy to believe that people are really searching for something that manufacturers do. II1 of my favorite things to do is to show them some data that, like, shows how often their own brand or their own product names or their own, you know, particular, like, model numbers even sometimes are searched. And it's, like, a great surprise to them to find out, like, wow, people are actually looking for this. And it can't, you know, it can't replace what your salesperson is doing to build that relationship, but I think it's more of a reflection of how the needs of buyers and the amount and types of information that they need is just very challenging for a salesperson or a BDR to to produce on their own. Do you agree with that? Do you see that as well?

Nikkie Freeman:

I do. Yeah. And I think it makes it the salesperson's job easier. If you think about and, you know, the example I gave where I know companies even as large as a 100, 000, 000 that rely on cold calling. The I saw statistics that for b to b cold calls, the conversion rate is 0.02%. So out of 10, 000 calls, you're getting 2 clients. That that conversion rate for hand raisers, which is what marketing's gonna drive. Right? So if we get content out there, we're doing our job and we're advertising and we're getting in front of the target audience, we're gonna get hand raisers that come in that are gonna be much more likely to convert to a customer, and that's gonna be a lot more efficient for your sales team.

Nikkie Freeman:

So marketing's kinda seen as an expense, but, you know, look at your sales team and what your what is your customer acquisition cost with just a sales team? How much time are they spending to get 1 client? And if we could increase that conversion rate to say 10%, which is, you know, it could go us from 1 to 10% on inbound leads, then the math works out where it's worth it to invest in in marketing, and you actually end up saving and your customer acquisition cost comes down.

Terri Hoffman :

Wow. So you're you're talking about another trend that I see really evolving right before my eyes, which is how does the relationship and the responsibilities how between a sales role and a marketing role, how have you seen, you know, those those roles and responsibilities change and evolve here recently?

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. I think it's gotta be symbiotic. You know? I feel like in the past, it was kind of siloed. So marketing's over here doing some stuff that sales doesn't really know about, and there's not communication going back and forth. But if you're working effectively as, you know, an organization, then your marketing team is providing leads to the sales team that are ready for a sales conversation. And sales is providing feedback to the marketing team on, hey. These leads were good. These leads were no good.

Nikkie Freeman:

Here's information I'm I'm hearing out in the marketplace. Here's requests that we're getting that we don't have a solution for. And so having that really aligned and coordinated is super important in order to achieve growth goals because working in silos just doesn't work anymore. And, you know, you need to enable the sales team to do their jobs effectively and be efficient by educating users, which, again, we talked about the buyers want to educate themselves. So that's our jobs as marketers to make sure that's happening and that we're getting those people in the door once they're ready to, you know, learn more and discover more and have a sales conversation.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. So do you think getting those, like, creating that more symbiotic relationship, is that about something, like, just making sure they're they're ultimately reporting up to the same person in a leadership role, or is it bigger than that?

Nikkie Freeman:

I think it it helps to have them both going up to the same leadership. So that's what I had at my last corporate job. Mhmm. But I think it is more than that. You've gotta get them in the room at the same time as well. So they've gotta be able to work effectively, communicate with 1 another, identify when that communication isn't happening or breaking down and, you know, course correcting thereafter. There are so many examples I have of the sales team giving information that really drove a lot of our our marketing and even product development. And so, you know, that's how I came to create a product development organization.

Nikkie Freeman:

My last role is because sales came and said, hey. The market is asking for this, and we don't have this. But there's a lot of demand for it, and so then we create it. But then they're going to the marketing team as well and going, hey. There's this is a hot product that we have right now. There's a lot of demand for it. So maybe it's something we already have. Well, let's you know, as as marketers, we have to be very, nimble and agile and and quick to change to marketing or to market dynamics.

Nikkie Freeman:

And so that could be 1 too where that feedback goes from sales to the marketing team, and the marketing team can set up a campaign to take advantage of the fact that that's a hot product at that given time.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Yeah. I've been trying to introduce that term sales enablement into more of my conversations lately, whether that's through, you know, these podcast discussions or, just content that I publish on my own on LinkedIn. But I think that's that's so key is that sales enablement mindset really needs to be brought into the relationship between the sales and marketing because I've always viewed marketing's role as, like, what do we need to do to make a sale easier? Right? Like, how can marketing support sales so that the whole process is more efficient and effective? Right. Oh, I

Nikkie Freeman:

mean Definitely. Yeah. And then even post sell, you know, as as you know, there's Yeah. More marketing work to kinda to help retain those customers and get them to be loyal on how do we get them to become brand advocates. So, yeah, a lot of it's upfront and helping kind of get that initial sale on the the client acquisition side. But then, you know, there's continuing work from the marketing department as well just to help. How do we increase retention? How do we cross sell? How do we improve our average order value? How do we get those loyal customers? And can we set up a loyalty program? How do we get referrals from them?

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Yeah. Those are all such important marketing functions. I wanna shift gears just a little bit and ask you about budgeting. So you talked about, like, some of the ways the 3 buckets of ways that you find are, like, the best starting point. I'm also curious about budgeting. Like, how what are some of the fundamentals to starting that conversation about budgeting with the companies that you're working with? So because I I think a lot of times, particularly in the manufacturing space, they don't really know what to budget. Right? Like they might they might know what they're able to budget and what they feel comfortable budgeting.

Terri Hoffman :

But sometimes when I'm asked that question, I'm like, well, if you're not able to budget enough, you might be better off, like taking a couple extra vacations next year.

Nikkie Freeman:

Right.

Terri Hoffman :

I'm being I'm I'm joking a little bit. But but also, it's like you wanna make sure that enough is budgeted, and it's not just based on, well, this is what's comfortable. It has to be based on something that would be more strategic and based on some analytics. Right? And so could you give us a little insight into the budgeting process that you find to be successful?

Nikkie Freeman:

Sure. Yeah. So at a real high level, I'd like to share statistics on kind of what the average b to b, and it it can differ by size of company and by industry. But you look at, company b to b companies, it's generally around 7 to 8% is the average of of revenue is spent on marketing. It's a little bit higher for b to c, higher if you're in a early stage company and you're looking for, more growth. But if you don't have, you know, at least say 5% to spend on marketing, it is gonna be a challenge. If you're looking for big growth goals, and I'm with you, it's like if if we don't have that percentage or minimum amount to spend on marketing, but you're expecting results, then it may not be worth investing at all. Otherwise, you're dabbling.

Nikkie Freeman:

A very minimal couple $1, 000 a month isn't really gonna get you much, and it's not gonna be able to drive results that you're looking for. And then you're gonna get frustrated, and you're gonna be upset that you spent your 2 or $3, 000 a month, and didn't see immediate results from it. So I think, you know, I'm I'm about 0 based budgeting. It doesn't have to be oh, it's gotta, you know, fall right at 7 or percent. It's here are the things that we need to do in order for you to hit your growth goal, And here's what that's gonna cost. And at the end of the day, is that MB in a reasonable range for a company of your size in your industry? And if that answer is yes, then, you know, it should be an easy decision to move forward. I will say I've worked with a lot of companies and helped them grow. And at a minimum, they're investing 5%, many of them 10 to 15% of revenue in marketing.

Nikkie Freeman:

So Yeah. I I usually, what I see with clients that are, you know, of that size I'm looking for kind of mid mid market is they'll stall out at revenue somewhere, say, maybe 15, 20, 000, 000. And all the things that worked for them to get to that number is no longer working. So they may have a couple of salespeople. They grew very quickly from 0 to 20, 000, 000, but the last 3 years, they've kind of been right at that 20, 000, 000 mark, and they're not growing. And they feel like there's opportunity for more more growth. Maybe they're trying to hire more salespeople, and that's not effective. And the thing that I find is that well, because 1 salesperson isn't going to be very efficient in spreading brand awareness.

Nikkie Freeman:

So you've gotten that low hanging fruit in the market and in your target audience, but we need to go beyond that to drive more demand. And doing that by making 10, 000 phone calls to get to customers is not gonna, be the most efficient way to get there.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah.

Nikkie Freeman:

So I think drawing that plan out to show somebody, here's how we're gonna get to your growth goals, and here's what it's gonna cost, has been Yeah. The most effective.

Terri Hoffman :

I that is that was gold that you just laid out because I think that is a very common obstacle. And people in leadership roles at those companies aren't necessarily sure about how to approach everything that you just talked about. And and then I I often see them very naturally jumping to, well, let's let's develop a strategy and start getting active in some of these channels where we know our clients are. But if you don't have that really business case with the budget behind it that is connected to your growth goals, it just leads to so many potential fails. So I I think what you do in that budgeting area is so valuable. Yeah.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. And the thing, I think the hesitancy sometimes for people as well, I'm not guaranteed that I'm gonna see this much return or this much revenue. And and that's true. I mean, I I have money in a 401 k and in mutual funds, and I'm not guaranteed a return on those either. But history would tell me that that's the the wise way to invest and that there's, you know, an average return over time.

Terri Hoffman :

That's a really good analogy. I like that. What if if you are talking to a prospect or to a company and they're not even sure what to put down as their growth goals? Because it it sounds like that's kind of a key part of the process is being clear on those growth goals. You know, what are some tips or suggestions that you would give to them at that point if they're having a tough time even being clear on those growth goals?

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. I would I'm probably gonna ask a lot of, questions for where they want to grow or areas that could be growth drivers for them. So are there new markets that they could go after in terms of, you know, new audiences? So if they are only selling into, say, retail, could they start selling into restaurants? So that's 1 way. Another way would be new product offerings or new services so they can can they add something on there? You know, at the most basic is just getting a higher percentage of your addressable market in the market that you're in with the audience that you're in. So if there's a way that you think you can increase your market share and what you're doing already, that's probably the lowest hanging fruit. If you don't feel like you've kind of tapped out or maxed out on what you're going to get, you know, relative to you and your competitors. So I like to ask a lot of questions and just what are the opportunities for growth? And then, yeah, sometimes I do hear a lot of, well, we don't really have a growth goal. Okay.

Nikkie Freeman:

Well, let's start with something. How about, you know, just 10%, what would that look like? What would that mean for you if you saw 10% more sales? You know, can your organization, especially in manufacturing, do you have the capacity to support that? So helping them get to a growth goal, I think, is important if they don't have that already. It's really hard to build a marketing strategy if there's not a goal that you're aiming for.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that's a great point. I think I would also be curious. There's a little bit of a subject change, but it's connected. What are some of the biggest challenges and or frustrations that you hear from your clients, especially at the at the beginning of building that relationship with them?

Nikkie Freeman:

A lot of times what I see, and I kinda touched on this a little bit earlier, but, I'll go into a little more detail is maybe they've had a marketing coordinator or 2 that they fired because I mean, let's say, if we, as marketers, are doing our jobs correctly, marketing looks really simple. But and it should look simple to the outside, but there is a lot of data and strategy and research and and methodology that goes behind it. And so if you're not in that marketing world and all you're seeing is social media posts and email newsletters, Maybe that's the all you think you need, and so you hire a marketing coordinator to do those things, but you see no results. And then you think marketing doesn't work for us, and you cut that expense, and you're done with marketing, because you've already come to the conclusion that it doesn't work. So I would say that's a big frustration is they've dabbled in marketing before. They they think they've tried marketing before and it didn't work and it was a waste of money. And so they're back to the drawing board scratching their head going, okay. Now how now how do I grow? I guess I'm just gonna hire more salespeople.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yes. So, yeah, I'm sure you probably run into that as well. Yeah. Mhmm.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. And and a lot of times, when we run into that, I'm like, yeah. Hiring another salesperson might not be the bad idea, but I don't think it's necessarily connected to why the marketing wasn't successful. Like, they're even though those roles are more ingrained and more kind of integrated than ever before, it might not be wrong to hire another salesperson, but it might not not also be the solution, the full complete solution to why you're not achieving the growth goals that you have in place. Right. Yeah.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. And it it's amazing to me how often I've heard people in leadership positions, whether it's sales leadership or, you know, CEO president roles, but where when they're not hitting their growth goals, they really come down on the sales team and say, you just need to sell more. You just need to sell more. And 1 of my sayings is just sell more is not a strategy. You're making assumption that they're not doing everything that they possibly can to try to get more customers, and it's just not working. So we need to actually do something different. You know, and there's a a variety of things that that could be, but just putting pressure on the sales team isn't gonna get get you to where you're going.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. That's a great point. What are some of the analytics tools that you think are just really a core part of making or creating a successful marketing strategy?

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. So there's a a few Google Analytics, of course, is always going to be part of that analytic tech stack. So visiting your website, what actions are they taking before they convert. A lot of that information can be used then to hone your digital marketing plan. So that's a key 1. If you have marketing So that's a key 1. If you have marketing automation, I like to look at, you know, the the metrics in there. So email open rates and conversion rates from that.

Nikkie Freeman:

And then CRM, there's a lot of stuff that you can track in CRM to kind of help marry some of the online and offline data points together. So if you've sent a direct mail, for example, then, you know, you can have if you've got a good CRM with analytics around it, then you can see that information there or you send a campaign or targeted to a customer, then you can see that information all in 1 place, which is is key.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. For sure. I do you have preferred platforms? You mentioned Google Analytics, but under, like, CRM and marketing automation, do you see some platforms that are just really kind of best suited to help this b to b space?

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. So my my favorites and they're the ones that I have experience with, but, HubSpot, I really enjoy because it's easy to use. So it's really well suited to that mid you know, 20, 000, 000 to say a couple 100, 000, 000 size organization, because it's not as complex as as the golden, you know, Salesforce. So Salesforce and part of, I think, are are really good, solid. They're always gonna be, you know, leaders in the space, but there there's technical components to that that, you know, you've got to send somebody to training and to really understand it in order to fully leverage the tool and set things up the way that you need them to be set up in order to get the analytics. Whereas HubSpot, I feel is, 1, it's better supported, by HubSpot, and then 2 is more intuitive from a user interface.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. I I agree with both of those or all of the comments that you just made. That's definitely my experience as well. I think it also just depends on exactly what they're needing out of those systems as well. But I would say, like, generally speaking, HubSpot is probably the easiest platform to get started with. If you're looking at CRM and putting some automation programs, it's not, you know, it's not free, there is an investment you have to make into the platform. But I think it's worthwhile because of the efficiencies that you gain in your program. It's almost like having another staff member when you have that product in place.

Nikkie Freeman:

Oh, definitely. And it gets back to, you know, kind of what we've talked about that alignment between sales and marketing and having sales enablement. Having a tool like HubSpot allows you then to get those leads in, put them through lead nurture once and score them once they're ready for a sales hand off, then it can be done there right in the tool without manual manipulation of of all those touch points. I have seen before, you know, salespeople trying to send their own marketing emails and spending a lot of time doing that. And I I just feel like, oh, gosh. There's so much there are much easier ways to do this. Let us help you. We can automate all of this and send out a lot more emails and not take up your time.

Nikkie Freeman:

And your time is better spent than on having, you know, conversations with with customers and not trying to send marketing messages.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Well, I I also wanted to make sure that I got a chance to ask you about ecommerce. Right? So ecommerce, I think in the B2B space is a growing market. And it's definitely something in the last, probably 2 years in particular, that our agency has gotten more requests for. And I'm just seeing I I also think it's a reflection of how buying behaviors are are changing in the B2B space. But, what are what are some of the trends you're seeing as it relates to ecommerce? B2B ecommerce?

Nikkie Freeman:

Oh, yeah. I feel like so people think, ecommerce is b to c. And at the end of the day, the c is the same person that's making the decisions at a b to b. You know, it might be different motives behind those decisions when you're working on behalf of a business versus buying something for yourself personally. But they still expect the same user experience. So, yeah, I've seen a lot more of companies being open to setting up ecommerce. Sometimes it seems like an enigma, and that can be a little bit of a nonstarter for companies because they feel like it's just it's hard and it's big and it's expensive and we don't even know where to start. But it really isn't I mean, you break it down.

Nikkie Freeman:

It's really not that difficult. You know, if you have a a good leader that understands and is familiar with, different e commerce platforms and with user experience can come in and dig into, you know, who your customers are and what is that expectation of the experience that they wanna have, and then designing a solution around it is not that difficult. There's so many off the shelf. I feel like way back in the day, early in my career, a lot of, that stuff was hard coded. You know, you had a big IT department that had to, like, code it in. Everything's off the shelf now, and so it's so much easier. That it is. Yeah.

Nikkie Freeman:

Some things that we see, you know, in b to b is you might not want to be able to Yeah. Some things that we see, you know, in b to b is you might not want to open up that e commerce to everybody. You you only have particular distributors or resellers that are, you know, want to buy or you know, not a problem. Or a trend that I'm seeing in manufacturing is, you know, not a problem. Or a trend that I'm seeing in manufacturing is, wanting to go direct to consumer. So maybe they've only sold through distributors and resellers, but starting to realize that consumers are the end user oftentimes of their products. And if they can reach them efficiently online, then that's, you know, a trend that I'm seeing. Before they don't wanna get in that space because it's too expensive to get into the end user space because it's too expensive to build out a, you know, brick and mortar across the nation.

Nikkie Freeman:

But now you can reach them very efficiently through online means. That's something that I've done before as well as building that direct to consumer channel through ecommerce.

Terri Hoffman :

I think that's huge. A lot of times, those manufacturers that are accustomed to selling through distributors, it's because there is a certain size of an order, you know, that gets them to achieve the pricing that makes the most sense for their distribution business. But if it's, if you look at the cost to implement an e commerce solution and you can sell direct to consumers, you may have just expanded and opened a whole other channel and you can put an ROI model together for the type of revenue growth that you can get by building that e commerce platform. And that's just 1 example. I mean, I'm Right.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. And you're getting retail margins instead of wholesale margins. So there's some margin expansion, there. And a lot of times what I hear is people are afraid of that channel conflict, so they don't wanna upset their distributors and resellers by competing with them directly through a direct to consumer. But there are ways around that as well-to-do that in a way that's gonna be beneficial for, you know, everybody involved. So

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Yeah. No. I agree. I I mean, it amazes me how these big platforms like Shopify is a huge example. You know, Shopify is has become known as the 800 pound gorilla for, b to c for consumer brands that want to sell their product online, but they have really beefed up their b to b offering and have some amazing tools available. Salesforce does as well. They have a whole commerce cloud solution.

Terri Hoffman :

And then, of course, I it kinda looks like HubSpot is at the front end of getting into that industry as well. Right. Commerce industry. I've been reading a lot about that lately. So I think it's the companies that have the platforms are starting to see these trends as well. And their their offerings are are more robust than I think people might imagine.

Nikkie Freeman:

Oh, yeah. And shop I have experience with Shopify. So when I built the direct to consumer, ecommerce channel, it was on Shopify, and it's just it's very robust. Just the tools that they have built in, and it's almost like a CRM. And so if there's so much, you know, segmentation that you can do and, you know, recency frequency and monetary analysis and just a lot of very data rich, information in there that you could use, for your your targeting and your marketing campaigns.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. No. I I totally agree. Okay. We could probably nerd out over overall the ecommerce solution. It's that's, like, to me, the most fun part about marketing is it blends so many different skill sets together. And depending on what you're interested in as, like, an individual worker, you can kinda decide which part, you know, suits you and that you wanna wanna grow more. What which area you want to grow in more.

Terri Hoffman :

I think that's what our the employees of our agency love. There's so many different directions you can take it.

Nikkie Freeman:

Oh, definitely.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Yeah.

Nikkie Freeman:

And you may start off, you know, in graphic design, and then, you know, move into user experience or designing websites. So yeah, there's a lot of different paths and tracks. I feel like marketing is an exciting place to be in it. You said it changes all the time. And so if you're a person that likes that dynamic and I'm very project oriented, so it works well for me, then I think it's a a good area to go into.

Terri Hoffman :

Well, I so, Nikkie, I wanna ask you 1 more question before I dive into my, I guess, non marketing, questions. The last question I wanted to ask you is if you got an opportunity to talk to, you know, that $50, 000, 000 manufacturing business as an example, if you got a chance to talk to somebody who's interested in learning more, what would you suggest as, like, the how do they start? Like, what's the first step that they could take to really start figuring out how a marketing investment might work for them?

Nikkie Freeman:

I think having a conversation with, a marketing professional. And so whether that's a fractional or an agency or even, you know, if they have a friend that's, experienced in marketing. I would not talk to a junior person in marketing. They they have their role and it's a very important 1, but they're not somebody that you wanna talk to necessarily about strategy and how do you get started. So I would recommend having a conversation with somebody who's got a lot of experience in marketing, specifically in manufacturing because there's a lot of nuances there. Right? If you get somebody that's in in b to c marketing, they may not understand your needs. But I think people that understand that industry that are experienced in marketing, that would be a really nice, robust discussion.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Okay. Well, that's we'll come back at the end and make sure that we're clear on your contact information to you just in case anybody listening would wanna talk to you directly and have that first conversation with you. We'll, I've got some fun questions to ask you first, and then we'll we'll come back to that at the end. Okay. Yeah.

Terri Hoffman :

Great. Okay. Alrighty. So these are my fun ones. I think they're fun anyway. Hopefully, you do too. What is your what's your favorite trip that you've ever taken?

Nikkie Freeman:

Oh, goodness. Probably Costa Rica. So we took the family to Costa Rica, for this last Christmas, and we met another family that we're really good friends with, that have moved. They used to be our neighbors, but they've moved out. So we met them there and spent a week in Costa Rica, and it is beautiful. It's just amazing. Monkey little monkeys everywhere and beaches and rainforests. It was amazing.

Nikkie Freeman:

Volcanoes. Yeah. I heard

Terri Hoffman :

there's like yeah. I'm assuming that you're kind of an an, an active active adventurous type of person because I've heard Costa Rica, there's, like, ziplining and all of these active things you can do as well. That sounds really fun.

Nikkie Freeman:

Oh, yeah. We did. We did all the things, zipline and horseback riding and monkeys and all kinds of volcanoes. Yep. It was it was great.

Terri Hoffman :

I wanna go there. Okay. Next question. If there's a mute musical group or artist and dead or alive that you wish you could have seen or could still see, who would that be?

Nikkie Freeman:

Oh, goodness. That is a tough 1.

Terri Hoffman :

Are you a big music fan?

Nikkie Freeman:

I am a music fan, but it I I go across a lot of genres. So I'm probably going to say Janet Jackson. Oh. Could be 1. Okay. I had it. I'm pulling her out of my, like, 19 eighties teenager self, but she was kind of my favorite back in those days. Okay.

Nikkie Freeman:

I think she'd be high up there. Yeah.

Terri Hoffman :

Oh, she had the Janet. Wasn't that the name of her, like, biggest I'm gonna say CD, which totally dates me, but that's how I bought it.

Nikkie Freeman:

Well, at least you say cassette date

Terri Hoffman :

by me. Yeah. That's funny. Okay. Next question is about books. Is there, like, a book that you find yourself recommending to people pretty frequently or often? It doesn't have a business book.

Nikkie Freeman:

Book or a fun book? Anything.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. It's up up to you.

Nikkie Freeman:

That I have recommended to a lot, and we every member of my family I've got 3 kids. Every member of my family has read it. My kids are all adults. Is the Trevor Noah book, born a criminal. It's a it's a short read, but it's funny and it'll make you cry and it's just it's a good 1. It's a good short light read. Okay. But but really good.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah.

Terri Hoffman :

Is it like a life perspective type of

Nikkie Freeman:

It is. Yeah. So it's it's kind of a autobiography. So his life growing up in South America or sorry, South Africa. And yeah. It's it's interesting.

Terri Hoffman :

Okay. And then what is the best job you've ever had?

Nikkie Freeman:

I'm going to say I mean, outside of the 1 I have now, because this is what, I truly have a passion for and really wanted to do. But my favorite job is more kind of a project within a job. So in my last role, when I created that direct to consumer ecommerce channel, that was the funnest project I think that I've worked on because it was all the way from creating a brand to developing the website to setting up the digital marketing plan to driving leads to getting it to to revenue. So we, launched that and grew it to 5, 000, 000 within a couple of years, and that was just so satisfying to me. We were overachieving our goals that we set forth, and there's just something about that process that made it feel like it was my baby. Of course, there was a team that worked on it. I didn't develop the website and did. But it was something I was the leader of, and it was we all pitched in and and did.

Nikkie Freeman:

But it was something that I was the leader of, and it was fun. And I that was my best project.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. It sounds like you got the satisfaction of seeing it through too, which is sometimes really hard. It's you don't often get that opportunity. You, like, have 1 little part of it that you work on, and then you disengage and other people take it from there. So that's that's pretty cool. You get to see it all the way through.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. That is the 1 of the hardest parts I think about being in a fractional role is a lot of times you're involved on the front end and developing that strategy and then kind of helping to execute the strategy and getting them going. But a lot of times what happens is then they they become self sufficient and, you know, fly fly the nest. And so you don't really get to see then what happens after that. So some of the foundational things that you've set in place for them that started to work and started to generate revenue. You don't get to see it through till, you know, for the next 2 years or 3 years.

Terri Hoffman :

Yeah. Well, that's a good way to connect back to the last question I have, which is how can how would you want somebody to get in touch with you if they're if they're ready to start that journey or even just have an initial conversation to see, you know, how you might be able to help them with their what I'll call their marketing journey.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. Sure. So my email is just nikki@flywheelcmo.com, and Nikkie is NIKKIE. And then another way would be to come to my website. There's a contact us form. We could have, you know, a a free 30 minute discovery call to see, you know, what your needs are, see if we would be a fit. And this website is flywheelcmo.com.

Terri Hoffman :

Okay. Awesome. And then I'm assuming people can find you on LinkedIn as well.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yes. Yep. And I'm on LinkedIn. And, again, NIKKIE. I'm a little unique, and I have an extra e on my name, but, that that's how you find me.

Terri Hoffman :

Well and we're gonna include all of, Nikkie's contact information in the show notes. So if you're watching this on YouTube, it'll be in the comment section. Or if you're on our website, you can look in the in the show notes section, and we'll have all the links avail available there as well. So, Nikkie, I just wanna thank you so much for spending the afternoon and some of your time with us. I think, I'm really hoping that the things that you shared will help get people over that initial herder hurdle or overcome some of the challenges or obstacles that might be in front of them to just getting started. Absolutely. Marketing strategy. So thank you.

Nikkie Freeman:

Yeah. I hope so. It's it's it's not scary. There's a method to it. And if you get the right, you know, agency or or a person involved that's experienced in marketing, they'll hold your hand through it and make it very easy. So thank you again for having me on the podcast today. Appreciate. It's been a a fun discussion.

Terri Hoffman :

You're welcome. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Please be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast channel and leave us a review. We'd love to hear from you. You can connect with me on LinkedIn or visit our website at marketing refresh.com.

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